Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Andeleisha]

I've been wondering about TWOW release date for a while too. I'd been thinking that they might be saving the announcement of the release date until after this season was over, as a strategy to kind of "keep the buzz going." They could have announced the book at the end of the season, released it in early 2015, and then season 5 would have started in the spring: essentially an entire year of momentum for the franchise. Remember how they announced ADWD right before Season 1 aired, and then it came out at the end of the season? 

 

But then GRRM announced that "fake history" book will come out this fall, so I give up. It seems too much to hope for that they would release TWO books that close to each other. 

 

So maybe they'll save TWOW until next year, give GRRM a head start on ADOS, and release TWOW around the time of Season 5. 

 

Because I'm sorry, I know we've all known this was coming, but I'd feel massively disappointed if GRRM let the show get ahead of him. I agree with what others have said that I do not trust the show to fulfill the promise of the books, even if they do know ahead of time what is going to happen.

 

On an intellectual level, I understand that the show and the books have to be stand alone pieces of art, but on an emotional level, that's bullshit. Should you be able to understand and enjoy the show without having read the books? Absolutely, 100%. But it's just disingenuous to suggest that the TV show doesn't owe anything to the books. That's the whole point of an adaptation. I don't think TV shows and movies have to be 100% faithful in order to be good, but I do think they have a responsibility not to ruin good source material. How can a show that's an adaptation get ahead of the book series it's based on? They can't ever really become separate pieces of art, no matter how much people want them to. Nothing good will come of the TV show going first. 

[Haldebrandt]

Because I'm sorry, I know we've all known this was coming, but I'd feel massively disappointed if GRRM let the show get ahead of him. I agree with what others have said that I do not trust the show to fulfill the promise of the books, even if they do know ahead of time what is going to happen.

Been going back and forth on this.  When they did the Night's King stuff I was happy and wanted more.  This week also got ahead with the Sansa story.  I think it's fair to assume that her ID will soon be known to some of the Vale higher ups in the books -- unless LF quickly gets rid of them on the show to restore the book status quo.

 

My desire to see the story continued on the show is directly related to my level of confidence in D&D.  Interminable monologues and Twilight or Attack of Clones level romantic dialog greatly undermine said confidence.  Not a good week.

[Haldebrandt]

On another note altogether:  Next year, we will see a lot for Dorne, including at least a trio of Sand snakes presumably seeking vengeance.  I never felt that way reading the books, but I wonder if any viewers feel like much of the story has devolved into characters seeking vengeance for characters who died seeking vengeance for characters who died seeking vengeance for... well, you get a point: the story radiates out in an endless chain reaction of revenge.

 

They're gonna get the the audience all excited next year about Arianne and the Sand Snakes raising Myrcella as the legit heir to the Iron Throne... all to see it crash down in yet another gory disfigurement.  Again, it was fine in the books, but 5 season in, how long until the audience tires of what seems like endless manipulation through raised and dashed hopes?

[blixie]

 

how long until the audience tires of what seems like endless manipulation through raised and dashed hopes?

 

While I mostly agree, I think there *are* irons of hope in the proverbial fire, that will not be dashed (Davos, Sam, Brienne) and that eventually the Starks will reunite, and stories will start coalesce around the various prophecies: The Prince who was Promised, The Beautiful Queen, The Three Headed Dragon. I have no idea how GRRM plans to do it, but I can't believe he's stupid enough to believe that people will go this long without PAYOFF, more than one, and big ones too.

[benteen]

On the show and book argument, I would greatly prefer for the books to finish before the show.  As great as a show or movie is, the book or books are almost always better.  Especially Game of Thrones.

 

That being said, I don't blame HBO at all for moving ahead.  They have an expensive investment in the show (and contracts with the cast) and they can't stop so that GRRM can revel non-stop in world-building.  At least we'll get answers.  But the problem is I don't trust D and D to tell the rest of the story on their own.  When they "go into business for themselves" we get stuff like Jaime raping Cersei, Talisa, etc.

[KurlyGrl]

 

On an intellectual level, I understand that the show and the books have to be stand alone pieces of art, but on an emotional level, that's bullshit. Should you be able to understand and enjoy the show without having read the books? Absolutely, 100%. But it's just disingenuous to suggest that the TV show doesn't owe anything to the books. That's the whole point of an adaptation. I don't think TV shows and movies have to be 100% faithful in order to be good, but I do think they have a responsibility not to ruin good source material. How can a show that's an adaptation get ahead of the book series it's based on? They can't ever really become separate pieces of art, no matter how much people want them to. Nothing good will come of the TV show going first.

 

Prime example of this is True Blood.  Night and day between the books and the TV adaptation. 

 

In any case, I feel if the books come out later, the books will be written adapting to the show.  Not the show adapting to the books, which is the way it SHOULD be. I understand that GRRM is supposed to be consulting on the show to explain his vision of the future books, and the show will portray that, but I feel with the input from the producers, etc., back to GRRM, they will be giving GRRM input into his vision of the books.  If that makes sense. 

[Alapaki]

Again, it was fine in the books, but 5 season in, how long until the audience tires of what seems like endless manipulation through raised and dashed hopes?

 

 

There's the old Chekov quote about the gun introduced in Act I and fired in Act III.  One of the problems I think the show is facing (and I wonder who people who haven't read the books feel about this) is that given the schedule there are YEARS between when the "gun" is introduced and when it's "fired".  

 

For example, I think Dany's dismissal of Jorah lost a lot of its impact being so separated from Season 1.  I don't know if they're going to use the scene where Jaime confesses to Tyrion about Tysha.  But if so, I wonder how many people remember Tyrion even had a wife before Shae?

[Haldebrandt]

On the show and book argument, I would greatly prefer for the books to finish before the show.  As great as a show or movie is, the book or books are almost always better.  Especially Game of Thrones.

 

That being said, I don't blame HBO at all for moving ahead.  They have an expensive investment in the show (and contracts with the cast) and they can't stop so that GRRM can revel non-stop in world-building.  At least we'll get answers.  But the problem is I don't trust D and D to tell the rest of the story on their own.  When they "go into business for themselves" we get stuff like Jaime raping Cersei, Talisa, etc.

Ideally, GRRM would become the main writer of the show.  I could live with that.  His episodes have been uniformly good and economical (D&D ruined the bear & the Maiden Fair).  But I think most readers would consider that a huge betrayal.  I wouldn't, but I can sympathize. 

Edited June 2, 2014 by Haldebrandt

[jjjmoss]

GRRM is not a particularly great writer, so I don't mind the books finishing after the show. Both of them have tons of chapters/scenes that are "use once, then throw away" out of my memory. 

 

The show's given us, say, Arya/Tywin which is better than anything Arya did in books two and three, and also some great original material for Sansa this season (last night, and her talk with Lysa about how Cat always went for the sweetest thing).

 

His episodes have been uniformly good and economical (D&D ruined the bear & the Maiden Fair).

 

I'm pretty sure he wrote that.

Edited June 2, 2014 by jjjmoss

[Haldebrandt]

I'm pretty sure he wrote that.

 

He did and then they gutted it in the editing room, moving several scenes into the next episode, and bringing back other scenes into this one.    Turns out later that everything I hated about that episode was not written my GRRM:  Theon's castration, and Brienne's rescue, to name a few.

[Winnief]

 

 

On another note altogether:  Next year, we will see a lot for Dorne, including at least a trio of Sand snakes presumably seeking vengeance.  I never felt that way reading the books, but I wonder if any viewers feel like much of the story has devolved into characters seeking vengeance for characters who died seeking vengeance for characters who died seeking vengeance for... well, you get a point: the story radiates out in an endless chain reaction of revenge.

They're gonna get the the audience all excited next year about Arianne and the Sand Snakes raising Myrcella as the legit heir to the Iron Throne... all to see it crash down in yet another gory disfigurement.  Again, it was fine in the books, but 5 season in, how long until the audience tires of what seems like endless manipulation through raised and dashed hope

 

That and the accelerated timeline, makes me wonder if events in Dorne aren't going to play out a little differently on screen than in the books-we don't know what Dornes's going to do exactly in TWOW and ADOS but maybe their bigger moves, will happen more quickly on screen than they did in the books, just as Sansa's evolution from pawn to player is happening more rapidly and Dany in Mereen is progressing more rapidly too.  

[mac123x]

On another note altogether:  Next year, we will see a lot for Dorne, including at least a trio of Sand snakes presumably seeking vengeance.  I never felt that way reading the books, but I wonder if any viewers feel like much of the story has devolved into characters seeking vengeance for characters who died seeking vengeance for characters who died seeking vengeance for... well, you get a point: the story radiates out in an endless chain reaction of revenge.

 

Ellaria even lampshades the futility of the cycle-of-revenge to the Sand Snakes.  Not that they listen to her.  At least Doran Martell has more planned than simple vengeance, since he's working towards restoring the Targaryens to the throne.  Hopefully they'll beef him up a bit, show that he might be a gout-riddled invalid but still an excellent (and patient) player in the Game.

[WalterWhiteWalker]

Just looking at the despondency of the Unsullied after Oberyn's death (given that some of them are now speccing that Tyrion may actually be executed), I'm wondering -- isn't this really the low point of the whole narrative (at least so far)?

 

That is, if you stack up the chips of "good things happening to bad people" and "bad things happening to good people" and so forth, from here on out, there's a fair amount of "things are looking up":

 

* Stannis saves the Wall

* Tyrion's escape and Tywin's death

* Arya joining the House of the Many-Faced God

* Emergence of UnCat

* Bran becoming a greenseer

* Jon named Lord Commander

* Cersei's humiliation

* Dany's dragons tearing shit up

 

Stacked up against relatively few and minor "downers":

* Death of the Hound

* Davos' struggles in White Harbor and the Stepsisters

* Ramsey's wedding to "Arya" [they should have dropped a mention of that in this episode, I thought ("I have identified a promising bride for you...")]

* "Burning" Mance Rayder

 

Am I right here?  What am I missing?

[Lady S.]

Brienne and Pod's almost execution by UnCat next season should be a downer. Also, Jon's Caesering, I wonder if the unspoiled will believe he really is out of the story. And just having to watch multiple episodes of Boltons and Freys in Winterfell won't be very fun, even if they don't include Jeyne Poole. And we know from the casting list that Tyrion and Jorah's time as slaves will be included. Oh, and this Grey Worm/Missandei business could very well be setting up his death to the Sons of the Harpy, since show Missandei doesn't have a brother in the Unsullied.

[Meredith Quill]

Just looking at the despondency of the Unsullied after Oberyn's death (given that some of them are now speccing that Tyrion may actually be executed), I'm wondering -- isn't this really the low point of the whole narrative (at least so far)?

 

That is, if you stack up the chips of "good things happening to bad people" and "bad things happening to good people" and so forth, from here on out, there's a fair amount of "things are looking up":

 

* Stannis saves the Wall

* Tyrion's escape and Tywin's death

* Arya joining the House of the Many-Faced God

* Emergence of UnCat

* Bran becoming a greenseer

* Jon named Lord Commander

* Cersei's humiliation

* Dany's dragons tearing shit up

 

Stacked up against relatively few and minor "downers":

* Death of the Hound

* Davos' struggles in White Harbor and the Stepsisters

* Ramsey's wedding to "Arya" [they should have dropped a mention of that in this episode, I thought ("I have identified a promising bride for you...")]

* "Burning" Mance Rayder

 

Am I right here?  What am I missing?

 

A few more positives:

Frey's hanging

Frey pie's

Reek & fAyra's escape

Rickon's re-appearance

Jorah & Tyrion heading to Dany

[OakGoblinFly]

A few more positives:

Frey's hanging

Frey pie's

Reek & fAyra's escape

Rickon's re-appearance

Jorah & Tyrion heading to Dany

 

That particular story line bothered me quite a lot ... it felt like I was reading a harlequin romance; all the men are heading toward the "great beauty" in hopes of winning her/aligning with her. 

[Meredith Quill]

Well, Jorah already loves her and wants absolution. Tyrion wants to see the Dragons as much as anything, also he wants her to defeat Cersei et al and be a part of that. I think the IB are the ones who are most interested because of her alleged 'great beauty'.

[ElizaD]

IMO, a lot of those positives are maybes (Dany meeting Tyrion hasn't happened yet, Stoneheart will threaten woobie Jaime and not just Freys), and even when something bad happens to the antagonists it tends to be the result of them being screwed over by a newbie rather than a former victim (I find Cersei's stupidity regarding the High Septon hilarious, but she hadn't done anything to him and continues to get away with the worst of her crimes). GOT will continue to be terribly depressing, even if seasons 3-4 have probably been the lowest points.

 

Oh, and this Grey Worm/Missandei business could very well be setting up his death to the Sons of the Harpy, since show Missandei doesn't have a brother in the Unsullied.

 

This might happen. Rather like Mago dying to give Drogo his one and only chance to show how he earned his badass reputation, Grey Worm could die to show that Dany is finally facing tougher enemies. And it would really hurt since the Missandei scenes have established him as a sweetheart and her as someone who'd be crushed by his death.

[Winnief]

 

Brienne and Pod's almost execution by UnCat next season should be a downer. Also, Jon's Caesering, I wonder if the unspoiled will believe he really is out of the story. And just having to watch multiple episodes of Boltons and Freys in Winterfell won't be very fun, even if they don't include Jeyne Poole. And we know from the casting list that Tyrion and Jorah's time as slaves will be included. Oh, and this Grey Worm/Missandei business could very well be setting up his death to the Sons of the Harpy, since show Missandei doesn't have a brother in the Unsullied.

I have a horrible feeling you might be right about Grey Worm/Missandei, but the other events described all have upsides.  Yes UnCat will have us worried for Brienne and Pod, but it's also a truly awesome reveal.  Grinding our teeth at the sight of Bolton and Frey trash in Winterfell will only make Frey Pies and their eventual extermination all the sweeter.  And hey Tyrion and Jorah getting captured together, means they will no doubt form an awesome dynamic that plays out WAY more entertainingly on the show than it ever did in the books.

 

 

Ellaria even lampshades the futility of the cycle-of-revenge to the Sand Snakes.  Not that they listen to her.  At least Doran Martell has more planned than simple vengeance, since he's working towards restoring the Targaryens to the throne.  Hopefully they'll beef him up a bit, show that he might be a gout-riddled invalid but still an excellent (and patient) player in the Game.

 

We might well see Doran playing some sort of long game with Varys-possibly to crown Dany if they don't include Aegon.  Yes it would offend Book Purists, but let's be honest-it would actually be an improvement over the books where the Dorne story was just a drag.  

 

I'm also thinking that next season might just end with the Wall coming down-it will certainly be down by early Season 6, so we can actually get the White Walker invasion overrunning Westeros storyline we've been promised from the beginning.  What do you think?

[Haldebrandt]

Oh, and this Grey Worm/Missandei business could very well be setting up his death to the Sons of the Harpy, since show Missandei doesn't have a brother in the Unsullied.

I have little doubt that's the entire point of the scene.  But why do this?  The "fatten them up before you kill them" cycle is so played out at this point.  Some Unsullied immediately saw what was going on.  The show systematically rewards the advent of happiness with heartbreak.  It's an increasingly visible pattern.  It's is becoming a problem.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Haldebrandt

[Winnief]

 

I have little doubt that's the entire point of the scene.  But why do this?  The "fatten them up before you kill them" cycle is so played out at this point.  Some Unsullied immediately saw what was going on.  The show systematically rewards the advent of happiness with heartbreak.  It's an increasingly visible pattern.  It's is becoming a problem.

 

Agreed.  Fortunately I'm hopeful that the coming story arcs will lead us into some new territory there in seasons to come.

[benteen]

There's the old Chekov quote about the gun introduced in Act I and fired in Act III.  One of the problems I think the show is facing (and I wonder who people who haven't read the books feel about this) is that given the schedule there are YEARS between when the "gun" is introduced and when it's "fired".  

 

For example, I think Dany's dismissal of Jorah lost a lot of its impact being so separated from Season 1.  I don't know if they're going to use the scene where Jaime confesses to Tyrion about Tysha.  But if so, I wonder how many people remember Tyrion even had a wife before Shae?

 

Yeah, I really wonder how much the Unsullied viewers are going to put up with all these near misses and dashed hopes.  Especially since the payoff for a lot of them (Stark reunion for one) isn't going to be until at least Season 6.

 

Tyrion and Jorah disappointed me in ADWD's but I'm so looking forward to see Peter Dinklage and Iain Glen interact on the show.  They'll easily be able to rise above the material.

[Zalyn]

But Sansa on the other hand...that's as personal as it gets.  That has emotional power, and karmic retribution all over it, and considering all their past interactions it would be so, so sweet to have Cersei overthrown by the 'silly, stupid, girl' she was so dismissive of.  Also, I keep going back to their scenes at the battle of Blackwater between the two of them and the contrast between their behavior-Sansa the model of self control and discipline showing grace under pressure with Cersei throwing herself a booze soaked pity party then making the  disastrous decision to have Joffrey withdrawn from the battlefield before leaving the room in a tantrum.  When the chips were down, Sansa the teenage hostage was far more Queenly than the actual Queen Regent Cersei...perhaps this was foreshadowing?!?

 

Now, there are of course two major objections to Sansa being the younger more beautiful Queen;

 

1. She doesn't particularly want the job.  Old Sansa did-New Sansa doesn't and in fact never even wants to see the Red Keep again.

I love this theory, and I agree with the narrative strength of Sansa being the downfall of Cersei.   I actually see the first objection as being a mark for this since it would be nice irony for Sansa to get the job she previously wanted out of naivety but now doesn't want from personal experience.  A new, hardened Sansa would suck it up and rule if that was needed.  The second objection is a question for me - I don't see how it would work out logistically (and frankly don't care to spend the time pondering it until GRRM crushes a few more beetles).

 

 

Tyrion and Jorah disappointed me in ADWD's but I'm so looking forward to see Peter Dinklage and Iain Glen interact on the show.  They'll easily be able to rise above the material.

 

I also found their scenes dreadfully dull and am looking forward to what they do with it.  They'll have to change things somewhat since Sir Iain Glen is much prettier and less bearish than Book!Jorah.  But still, I never really found myself rooting for Tyrion; I feel like he is too cynical to be a hero and is destined to be a commentator on events.  I just can't see him interacting in any heroic way with Danaerys.

[Winnief]

 

I actually see the first objection as being a mark for this since it would be nice irony for Sansa to get the job she previously wanted out of naivety but now doesn't want from personal experience.  A new, hardened Sansa would suck it up and rule if that was needed.  The second objection is a question for me - I don't see how it would work out logistically (and frankly don't care to spend the time pondering it until GRRM crushes a few more beetles).

 

Good point, that to Martin the fact that Sansa is just about the only potential candidate to be Queen who doesn't want the job, being the reason he would stick her with it.  He's got a cruel sense of irony that way.  Personally, I'd prefer Shireen to be Jon's future Queen for a lot of reasons, but sadly I think Shireen might just be another crushed beetle because this series is beyond sadistic like that.  

 

 

I just can't see him interacting in any heroic way with Danaerys.

I don't need him to act heroically-I'll just settle for Tyrion telling her some hard truths about her father the Mad King.

[jjjmoss]

It would actually be an improvement over the books where the Dorne story was just a drag.

 

Much less of a drag than, say, Jon Snow, Daenerys, Tyrion, and especially the Ironborn storylines. 

 

I think a big question about Sansa being the queen would be who her support system would be - she'd need a worthy king, a powerful Hand, various big families supporting her besides her own wrecked one and others from her one region...

I'm prone to think that we won't have one united kingdom, nor 7 separate ones, but something in between. In theory, Sansa could take everything that she holds dear and be a queen without necessarily being queen of all of Westeros. Perhaps marrying Tommen after finishing the job Margaery's started of making him less of a mama's boy and showing him how awful Cersei is enough to agree to strip her of her power and throw her into exile, now without her position, her riches, her beauty, or her children.

[Minneapple]

But Sansa on the other hand...that's as personal as it gets.  That has emotional power, and karmic retribution all over it, and considering all their past interactions it would be so, so sweet to have Cersei overthrown by the 'silly, stupid, girl' she was so dismissive of.  Also, I keep going back to their scenes at the battle of Blackwater between the two of them and the contrast between their behavior-Sansa the model of self control and discipline showing grace under pressure with Cersei throwing herself a booze soaked pity party then making the  disastrous decision to have Joffrey withdrawn from the battlefield before leaving the room in a tantrum.  When the chips were down, Sansa the teenage hostage was far more Queenly than the actual Queen Regent Cersei...perhaps this was foreshadowing?!?

I agree with all of this! You actually made me more curious about the prophecy so I went and looked it up again:

 

Cersei: When will I wed the prince?

Maggy: Never. You will wed the king.

Cersei: I will be queen, though?

Maggy: Aye. Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.[1]  ”

Cersei: Will the king and I have children?

Maggy: Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you. 

 

Note that Maggy doesn't say another "queen" will cast Cersei down. Just "another," younger and more beautiful. So Sansa could fit even though she's not technically a queen. Yet. Although I do love all of the "queen in the north" stuff for Sansa. Also, most of Maggy's prophecy has come true. "Gold shall be their crowns" could refer to her kids having blond hair. Sixteen kids for Robert and three for Cersei. She didn't marry the prince but did become queen after she married the king.

 

Also, if Sansa is the one who takes away everything from Cersei, then that would parallel nicely with Jaime being the valonqar (instead of Tyrion like Cersei thinks). Cersei being paranoid and wrong about everything as usual.

 

As much as Book Sansa can frustrate me, she's still one of my favorite characters. I like the contrast she provides to all the crazy-ass evil manipulations of everyone in King's Landing, she's sweet and innocent and too naive (and that's where the frustration comes in). That said, I absolutely adore what Sophie Turner has done with her and I actually think I like Show Sansa more than Book Sansa. Perhaps it's because she's older, but she now gets it, and that's what I was looking forward to from Sansa in TWOW.

 

Then there's the foreshadowing about Sansa going darkside, which I think is a real possibility. It would be just like GRRM to take the most naive character in the books and make her evil.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Minneapple

[benteen]

I love this theory, and I agree with the narrative strength of Sansa being the downfall of Cersei.   I actually see the first objection as being a mark for this since it would be nice irony for Sansa to get the job she previously wanted out of naivety but now doesn't want from personal experience.  A new, hardened Sansa would suck it up and rule if that was needed.  The second objection is a question for me - I don't see how it would work out logistically (and frankly don't care to spend the time pondering it until GRRM crushes a few more beetles).

 

 

I also found their scenes dreadfully dull and am looking forward to what they do with it.  They'll have to change things somewhat since Sir Iain Glen is much prettier and less bearish than Book!Jorah.  But still, I never really found myself rooting for Tyrion; I feel like he is too cynical to be a hero and is destined to be a commentator on events.  I just can't see him interacting in any heroic way with Danaerys.

 

It didn't help that I found the Volantis location they were in (it was Volantis, wasn't it?) boring.  GRRM might love world-building but it's hard for me to be invested in Essos.  That being said, Tyrion and Jorah didn't connect (though I liked the last scene between them).  They both seemed to be acting like assholes through most of their interaction.  It's a shame because they are too characters who should be fascinating together.

 

I'm also hoping we'll get a Jon and Davos scene out of all this.  I thought not having those two interact was a missed opportunity.

Edited June 3, 2014 by benteen

[PeteMartell]

I also found their scenes dreadfully dull and am looking forward to what they do with it.  They'll have to change things somewhat since Sir Iain Glen is much prettier and less bearish than Book!Jorah.  But still, I never really found myself rooting for Tyrion; I feel like he is too cynical to be a hero and is destined to be a commentator on events.  I just can't see him interacting in any heroic way with Danaerys.

 

I feel like this season has been spent destroying some of the character's defense mechanisms...he's had much less of the cynical one-liner style of material, even when in the book he still had some of this (comparing his reaction to Oberyn's baby story in the book to in the show).

 

I still have no idea what they're going to do with Jaime and Tyrion. Are they building up their brotherhood so that we will be crushed when Tyrion turns against him in the finale? Since Tysha has barely been mentioned on the show, won't that make him seem like a huge asshole? 

 

Reading the list of happy things to come - I'm somewhat concerned with how they will handle Stannis saving the Wall, as they do such a mediocre/poor job with Stannis and struggle to write him in a role beyond the brooding guy Melisandre and Davos need/want. I hope that may change and we'll actually get to see him in action this coming episode, and see more of him with Jon, who could use an ally.

 

I'm also wondering if Arya's story is really supposed to be happy when she becomes a faceless assassin. The show has a huge disconnect problem with Arya and the viewers. Many of them still seem to see her as a cute, bad-ass little rascal even now. If next season is spent with her training to kill people, I have to wonder if this will again be seen as Arya the bad-ass, rather than exploring any particular role for her character.

[Winnief]

 

I'm also hoping we'll get a Jon and Davos scene out of all this.  I thought not having those two interact was a missed opportunity.

 

Never fear-we're sure to get one on the show since show Stannis is almost sure to bring Davos with him to Castle black instead of sending him off on a side mission.  Now Manderly and White Harbor may or may not make it to the screen, but Davos's trip to the Three Sisters will definitely be cut and probably Skagos too.  I'm betting Rickon and Osha are lying low with the Umber's at Last Hearth and that Greatjon Umber may even take on some of Manderly's role in the story.  

[DigitalCount]

Can Manderly really be cut though? It feels like he's way too popular, and we need a good guy to be the face of the North as it was under the Starks.

 

Also, if Sansa is the one who takes away everything from Cersei, then that would parallel nicely with Jaime being the valonqar (instead of Tyrion like Cersei thinks). Cersei being paranoid and wrong about everything as usual.

 

Sorry to be that dude who's always pushing this theory, but I personally think Tyrion is the red herring for Cersei, while Jaime is the red herring for the audience. The valonqar is exactly who Maggy said it would be: the younger brother of her three children who she's just finished crying over, and whose eyes will be--by that point--a lovely shade of glowing blue.

 

Yes, Cersei is always wrong, but I think she's even more deeply wrong here in terms of the way she frames the prophecy in her mind. And how good would it be to have the woman whose only redeeming quality is her love for her children undone by one of them?

[benteen]

Never fear-we're sure to get one on the show since show Stannis is almost sure to bring Davos with him to Castle black instead of sending him off on a side mission.  Now Manderly and White Harbor may or may not make it to the screen, but Davos's trip to the Three Sisters will definitely be cut and probably Skagos too.  I'm betting Rickon and Osha are lying low with the Umber's at Last Hearth and that Greatjon Umber may even take on some of Manderly's role in the story.  

 

The Three Sisters will definitely be cut, just like Littlefinger's home was (they are both located around the same area now that I think about it).  I wonder if Sallador Saan's betrayal will still happen but on the show he's still being paid by Stannis.  He'll probably just disappear again.

 

Manderly I would think is a given although it annoyed me that they cast the character on his son last season but never gave him ANY dialogue.    I was hoping we'd get to see Osha and Rickon at Last Hearth.

[Minneapple]

I don't think Cersei loves her children. I think she only loves the power they enable in her, and the fact that they're an extension of herself and Jaime. She barely spares a thought for Myrcella, and her main concerns for Tommen are that Margaery doesn't get her claws into him and gain influence over him.

 

Also, even if she did love her children I don't think that would be her "only redeeming quality." They might play it that way on the show, but I love Book Cersei's ruminations on things like gender politics, her anger at being born a woman and how different things would be if she had been born a man. The show has really watered down Cersei and that does her a great disservice. She's such a fantastic character in the books.

 

It's entirely possible Tyrion will be the one to strangle Cersei -- just him strangling Shae with the golden hands necklace could be foreshadowing of it (personally I think that will parallel Jaime strangling Cersei with his golden hand). There's many theories out there that could fit the prophecy.

[PeteMartell]

On another note altogether:  Next year, we will see a lot for Dorne, including at least a trio of Sand snakes presumably seeking vengeance.  I never felt that way reading the books, but I wonder if any viewers feel like much of the story has devolved into characters seeking vengeance for characters who died seeking vengeance for characters who died seeking vengeance for... well, you get a point: the story radiates out in an endless chain reaction of revenge.

 

They're gonna get the the audience all excited next year about Arianne and the Sand Snakes raising Myrcella as the legit heir to the Iron Throne... all to see it crash down in yet another gory disfigurement.  Again, it was fine in the books, but 5 season in, how long until the audience tires of what seems like endless manipulation through raised and dashed hopes?

 

Given that we don't know the living Martells, outside of Ellaria (who is basically sidelined from now on, isn't she?), and we'll likely be getting a recast Myrcella, I wonder how invested the audience will be in this plot. They will want to see justice done for Oberyn, but this is on top of the justice they wanted done for the Starks. 

 

The message of this season seems to be that no one needs to get vengeance on the Lannisters, because they will destroy themselves. Next season will any Lannister but Cersei even be at King's Landing? She'll have to deal with Margaery and dispose of Loras (and they, especially Loras, have barely been in this season), and we'll be getting more new characters to move the story along with her, but it will mostly be more of the Lannisters imploding. 

 

I think the big problem is going to be the Starks, as they are less and less likely to interact, and the near-misses this season were done so cynically that they may teach viewers to never bother to invest in seeing them reunite at this point. That was a strong selling point for some viewers, and now it's gone.

 

I was so interested in that last scene with Littlefinger and Sansa because there was a strong glam tone to it that used to be in the Lannister scenes - a certain melodramatic flair. The Lannisters, after the first two episodes where they were at their peak, have become more and more grubby as the season has progressed. I wonder if the Vale story is going to be given more of a stlyish presence and if that will help push Sansa as the one who replaces Cersei. I just hope we won't go back to Sansa-as-victim.

[Zalyn]

I was so interested in that last scene with Littlefinger and Sansa because there was a strong glam tone to it that used to be in the Lannister scenes - a certain melodramatic flair. The Lannisters, after the first two episodes where they were at their peak, have become more and more grubby as the season has progressed. I wonder if the Vale story is going to be given more of a stlyish presence and if that will help push Sansa as the one who replaces Cersei. I just hope we won't go back to Sansa-as-victim.

I like this!  I got a similar feel - there seemed to be an intentional glam vibe in that scene (I'm thinking Dark Frozen, including Sansa's "coming out as a woman").  This is a place where the TV medium could be used very effectively where the book wasn't (because I just can't see GRRM writing the type of description that was conveyed in that short scene with the Mockingjay dress).  I have been really antsy about Sansa's story in the books, because as annoying as I found her at the start, she really seems set up for some good character development; sadly, I just can't feel enough trust in GRRM to do it well (maybe why he's waited so long to write her), but with the show, I think they're doing her story justice.

[Winnief]

 

Sorry to be that dude who's always pushing this theory, but I personally think Tyrion is the red herring for Cersei, while Jaime is the red herring for the audience. The valonqar is exactly who Maggy said it would be: the younger brother of her three children who she's just finished crying over, and whose eyes will be--by that point--a lovely shade of glowing blue.

That's actually a pretty good theory, and it could definitely work.  We'll see.

 

 

Can Manderly really be cut though? It feels like he's way too popular, and we need a good guy to be the face of the North as it was under the Starks.

Well I was thinking that all the cool things Manderly does, they could have Umber do...but yeah, I'd like it if Manderly himself made it to the show.

 

 

Given that we don't know the living Martells, outside of Ellaria (who is basically sidelined from now on, isn't she?), and we'll likely be getting a recast Myrcella, I wonder how invested the audience will be in this plot. They will want to see justice done for Oberyn, but this is on top of the justice they wanted done for the Starks.

Well depending how good the actors, are that might remedy matters considerably.  Pedro Pascal after all made Oberyn even more popular on the show than in the books.  But yeah D&D have to be careful about taking too much time away from the Starks-that was Martin's big mistake in the last two books.  Fortunately, I find the fact that they're advancing Sansa's storyline so much and look to be doing the same with Bran to be hopeful.  Also thanks to Bran while we won't get an in person Stark reunion for a while yet, it does create the possibility of some form of psychic communication which might prove a temporary salve to viewers.  

 

 

The message of this season seems to be that no one needs to get vengeance on the Lannisters, because they will destroy themselves. Next season will any Lannister but Cersei even be at King's Landing? She'll have to deal with Margaery and dispose of Loras (and they, especially Loras, have barely been in this season), and we'll be getting more new characters to move the story along with her, but it will mostly be more of the Lannisters imploding.

 

And viewers are gonna want some action on the Jaime front instead of just endless travelogues in the Riverlands and introspection.  Yet another reason they'll have to have Jaime's confrontation with LSH happen in Season Five and the fallout there.  It's just bad tv not to do it.

 

 

 

I was so interested in that last scene with Littlefinger and Sansa because there was a strong glam tone to it that used to be in the Lannister scenes - a certain melodramatic flair. The Lannisters, after the first two episodes where they were at their peak, have become more and more grubby as the season has progressed. I wonder if the Vale story is going to be given more of a stlyish presence and if that will help push Sansa as the one who replaces Cersei. I just hope we won't go back to Sansa-as-victim.

I like this!  I got a similar feel - there seemed to be an intentional glam vibe in that scene (I'm thinking Dark Frozen, including Sansa's "coming out as a woman").  This is a place where the TV medium could be used very effectively where the book wasn't (because I just can't see GRRM writing the type of description that was conveyed in that short scene with the Mockingjay dress).  I have been really antsy about Sansa's story in the books, because as annoying as I found her at the start, she really seems set up for some good character development; sadly, I just can't feel enough trust in GRRM to do it well (maybe why he's waited so long to write her), but with the show, I think they're doing her story justice.

 

My sentiments exactly.  There's a lot of justifiable concern about D&D going off the books in details and they've certainly made missteps before.  But in Sansa's case, I think they actually have an edge over Martin.  Martin was good at writing Sansa's internal thoughts and insights, (which the show obviously couldn't do,) but he's never seemed to figure out how to let her do anything.  D&D though seem ready to do that-and do with style too.  If handled right Sansa's story line could damn well be a highlight of Season Five-and as I said that will go a long way towards solving the problem of inadequate Stark action they had in the last two books.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Winnief

[Holmbo]

 

Sorry to be that dude who's always pushing this theory, but I personally think Tyrion is the red herring for Cersei, while Jaime is the red herring for the audience. The valonqar is exactly who Maggy said it would be: the younger brother of her three children who she's just finished crying over, and whose eyes will be--by that point--a lovely shade of glowing blue.

 

Yes, Cersei is always wrong, but I think she's even more deeply wrong here in terms of the way she frames the prophecy in her mind. And how good would it be to have the woman whose only redeeming quality is her love for her children undone by one of them?

 

I'm totally for this theory too. I think wording of prophesies must be important. And this one says The Valonqar. Not Your Valonqar or A Valonqar. I think that's significant.

[benteen]

I'm looking forward to Jaime's traveling through the Riverlands...I don't think they'll have a problem making that interesting.

I worry about how much time they are going to spend in Dorne though.  It just reeks of detour.

[Holmbo]

I'm looking forward to Jaime's traveling through the Riverlands...I don't think they'll have a problem making that interesting.

 

I agree that could be very nice. If they do it (I'm not certain they can include it if other stories, like Brienne's, need to progress) I hope they'll have the war council (siege council?) like in the book. I think that would be a very good contrast to Tywin's earlier councils. I can picture a scene of Jaime being all: There will be no more discussion on the matter, and everyone just keep quibbeling with each other. :D

[blixie]

 

The valonqar is exactly who Maggy said it would be: the younger brother of her three children who she's just finished crying over, and whose eyes will be--by that point--a lovely shade of glowing blue.

 

I guess my brain is exceptionally dense this morning, who the hell is the younger brother to her three children, with glowing blue eyes,  a white walker is the valonqar? I...uh..okay.

[Zalyn]

I guess my brain is exceptionally dense this morning, who the hell is the younger brother to her three children, with glowing blue eyes,  a white walker is the valonqar? I...uh..okay.

I'm guessing Tommen, after being turned into a wraith? 

[Haleth]

I believe he means zombie Tommen.

[Minneapple]

The valonqar is exactly who Maggy said it would be: the younger brother of her three children who she's just finished crying over, and whose eyes will be--by that point--a lovely shade of glowing blue.

 

 

Ahahaha...I totally misinterpreted your post. I love this theory!

 

I actually love reading GoT message boards in general just for all the theories to all the prophecies and outcomes. My favorite theory is the one that GRRM is NEVER GOING TO FINISH THE BOOKS.

[Brn2bwild]

 

I was so interested in that last scene with Littlefinger and Sansa because there was a strong glam tone to it that used to be in the Lannister scenes - a certain melodramatic flair. The Lannisters, after the first two episodes where they were at their peak, have become more and more grubby as the season has progressed. I wonder if the Vale story is going to be given more of a stlyish presence and if that will help push Sansa as the one who replaces Cersei. I just hope we won't go back to Sansa-as-victim.

 

Given the way they've changed Sansa's storyline, I would be really interested to see if on the show, she becomes the one to learn about Ramsay marrying "Arya."  Imagine if Littlefinger learns that the Hound and Arya came to the gate, but keeps it from Sansa until news of "Arya's" wedding.  Then, for purposes yet unknown, Littlefinger manipulates Sansa by suggesting that the Hound could have sold Arya to Ramsay.  We haven't seen much from either sister about her feelings for the other since Season One, and it would be nice to see Sansa's reaction to this.

[jjjmoss]

I hope we at least get a short glimpse of Gendry and Rickon so they exist this season. I mean, the finale is called "The Children."

Edited June 3, 2014 by jjjmoss

[atomationage]

 

I mean, the finale is called "The Children."

Maybe that's because the cannibals are going to be eating children.

[Avaleigh]

Ooh, I like the idea of Sansa learning about the fake Arya marriage. The only thing is I wish she knew that Ramsay is the type of guy who makes Joffrey come across like the occasionally naughty boy scout in comparison.

Re: the valonqar

I think Jaime is easily the most boring and predictable option so I definitely prefer the idea of wight Tommen or even Tyrion. Cersei is never right so I think it would be a good twist if she ended up being right about this one thing. Zombie!Tommen is my first choice though.

Re: an absence of Lannisters in KL next season--

Jaime should at least be around for half of the season, no? Or at least the first four episodes. Kevan will be reintroduced as a player as will Lancel. Then we'll have Tommen and Margaery in addition to Cersei. Obviously Kevan is no Tywin and Lancel is no Jaime but the numbers are basically the same.

Thinking about Jaime and LS has me.nervous but there's no way Brienne would ever betray him right? Right? (Reassure me, people!) I hope the audience at least gets an episode cliffhanger here because I'mccurious to know if most Unsullied will think he's toast or not.

I still feel like Jaime has one last huge heroic act to undertake and I will feel so let down if he's so easily taken out by LS. I also need him to have final conversations with both Tyrion and Cersei if possible because I feel like there's way too much unresolved stuff there.

In fact apart from reunions between the Lannister siblings the only reunions that I'm looking forward to more are Jon and Sansa, Sansa and Arya, and Jon and Arya.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Avaleigh

[MrWhyt]

 

There's the old Chekov quote about the gun introduced in Act I and fired in Act III.  One of the problems I think the show is facing (and I wonder who people who haven't read the books feel about this) is that given the schedule there are YEARS between when the "gun" is introduced and when it's "fired".

There is another problem (and I see this mostly with the unsullied) which is viewers who think that chekov's gun is an unbreakable rule of writing, and so they see everything as foreshadowing an upcoming event, or connections between characters that will never meet. And of course they get disappointed/disillusioned when their theories are proven wrong.

[mac123x]

I took "The Children" to be a reference to one or more of the following:

 

1.  Chldren of the Forest.  Bran (remember Bran?  Young man who can't use his legs, which is probably a good thing since the actor is probably as tall as Hodor now) needs something to do, since he's been absent since episode 5.

2.  Dany's "children" i.e., the dragons, and Drogon roasting a child, which leads to Dany locking up her other children

3.  Dramatic irony, because all of the remaining Starks children have been forced to grow up quickly - Sansa the femme fatale, Arya the killer, Bran the tree and Rickon the not-shown-this-season.

[jjjmoss]

Yeah, I took it to mean all of those things. Plus a father being killed by his child. 

 

So the publisher said "well maybe 8 books, cuz there are kinda 8 kingdoms."

Also she kinda confirmed that she lets GRRM do basically whatever the eff he wants, explaining the hundreds of pages of bloat. For book 5 her main issue was the following: "I did try to get him to take a few 'words are wind' out of ADWD, but he got stubborn again. Characters said it 14 times in [the book]. I tried to get him to cut it down to 6-7. No dice."

So even when she does actually make a minimal effort to edit down his excess, she kowtows. Maybe we'll see the end of the series in the 2020s at this rate.

[Haleth]

I reeeeeally hope the show writers don't cop out and not have Tyrion kill Shae.  I can see them transferring Tyrion's obsession about finding where whores go to a search for her instead of Tysha.  Funny, the Unsullied are terrified that Shae will be executed in front of Tyrion as further punishment and we know from the book that he is the one to kill her, but it may turn out that she is long gone and her twu wuv will travel East to search for her.