Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Mya Stone]

I'm now wondering if after Mel lets Mance go (with his kings blood) if Shireen is needed for some spell/sacrifice when Jon is down for the count and Stannis is on his way to Winterfell. Hmm.

[Independent George]

I think I'm in the minority, but I think it's way too early to introduce Lady Stoneheart. I feel like it should be one of the mini-climaxes next season - maybe E4 or E5.

 

One scene I really, really, really hope they show in the next episode is Oberyn's reveal that his mother and Joanna Lannister were friends who had hoped to join their houses together - and the line, "Lord Tywin ruled the seven kingdoms, but at home, he was ruled by Lady Joanna". It not only clears up a lot of the backstory (Cersei being intended for Rhaegar, and how he came to marry Elia), but it's such a heartbreaking look at how differently things might have turned out differently while also humanizing Tywin to a great extent.

 

I'm now wondering if after Mel lets Mance go (with his kings blood) if Shireen is needed for some spell/sacrifice when Jon is down for the count and Stannis is on his way to Winterfell. Hmm.

 

I really hope this means Stannis stands up for Shireen in the next episode. The show really seems to go out of its way to make Stannis into a villain, that I hope he at least gets to show some backbone for once and protect his own child. 

Edited May 19, 2014 by Independent George

[yellowfred]

So, one thing that I've been noticing more and more is how quickly accurate information seems to get around in the show version of Westeros.  It's nice, on some level, that we don't get stuck with people making huge decisions based on bad information.  At the same time, though, I really missed getting to see Arya hear that Sansa killed Joffrey with a spell and then escaped by turning into a wolf with giant bat wings.  

Edited May 19, 2014 by yellowfred

[Lady S.]

 At the same time, though, I really missed getting to see Arya hear that Sansa killed Joffrey with a spell and then escaped by turning into a wolf with giant bat wings.  

I haven't minded any of the non-rape changes too much this season, but I'm disappointed about the loss of that line too. Hopefully Sandor/Arya's next fight brings news of Sansa's marriage and escape, it'd be just like this show to have them stopped at the Bloody Gate and hear about Sansa with no idea she's in the Vale.

 

I noticed Oberyn's story left out his mother and changed it to he and Elia traveling with their father, so that was also disappointing. We'll likely never even hear Joanna Lannister's name.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Lady S.

[MarySNJ]

 

Two of the biggest, and most concerning, issues about the books, if you ask me. He must have spent hundreds of pages describing landscapes and buildings and towns and cities and dresses and armour and coats of arms. And the further he gets into the series, the more bogged down he gets with this world building. The storylines are stagnant for a long while, then suddenly get pushed forward by some Big Event, and it makes for a very uneven reading experience, in my view.

Don't forget countless pages and pages describing food, some in revolting detail.

 

I like the books - actually loved a couple of them, but you make a very valid complaint. The world building makes sense to me when there's a new location of relevance to the story but I'm not really interested in knowing the lesser houses and foreigners back stories when they will only serve as Red Shirts.

[Haldebrandt]

So, one thing that I've been noticing more and more is how quickly accurate information seems to get around in the show version of Westeros.  It's nice, on some level, that we don't get stuck with people making huge decisions based on bad information.  At the same time, though, I really missed getting to see Arya hear that Sansa killed Joffrey with a spell and then escaped by turning into a wolf with giant bat wings.  

Yeah that's a favorite nugget from the books.  Stuff like that adds to a sense of reality.  Although, consistent with the theme of stories changing with each telling, I thought the story was the she turned into a direwolf and ripped out his throat, and latter a huge wolf with a bloody snout was found prowling the red keep...

 

I really like the "nothing is nothing," but the delivery wasn't as chilling as the take I saw in one of the pre-season featurettes.

[jeansheridan]

 

I really like the "nothing is nothing," but the delivery wasn't as chilling as the take I saw in one of the pre-season featurettes.

But I did like that Arya was trying to be comforting.  That part of her isn't dead ...yet.  

 

I love the changes to Brienne's storyline because Martin made her so dense/plodding in the book.  And gee, Pod has a brain!  He understands how all the families work and that yes, Aunt Lysa is very likely where the girls would go if they could get there.  And I like that Brienne actually knows what Sansa looks like.  

 

I'm fine with characters not always being  bright or knowing all the answers.  Brienne made several major errors in judgment while traveling with Jaime.  Clearly Tyrion is now paying for some of his cleverness and arrogance when he was the Hand.  But when there's chapter after chapter of the same plodding thinking ...Ug.  

 

If I didn't enjoy Arya and the Hound so much (the performances and actors), I could say the same thing about their plotline this season.  All they have done is ride a bit and kill people and ride a bit more.  Heck, Jon has healed from his wounds, traveled to Craster's Keep,  and traveled back while Arya and the Hound are plodding along.  Dany has taken over a bloody city.  These two seem to travel about three miles a day.

 

But I do love the performances.  I think Rory would make a great Chewbacca in the Star Wars movies.  I would hate not seeing his face (I like his face, burn make-up and all), but he's the right size for Chewbacca.

[Wilowy]

The Hound was never sympathetic to me in the books, but my heart went out to him last night when he was telling Arya his troubles. 

 

I fucking LOVED all the verbatim dialogue from the books and wish they'd do it more. Made me miss them and want to go read again. 

 

Oberyn never impressed me that much in the books, but I LOVE him on the show and am going to be very sad when he dies. His golden presence (he positively radiates good health and male vigor) and reasonable conversations/way of figuring everyone out is a delight and a treat in a town where everyone has such selfish tunnel vision. 

[Independent George]

The Hound was never sympathetic to me in the books, but my heart went out to him last night when he was telling Arya his troubles.

I loved the way he delivered the "I didn't steal it, I was just playing with it" line - you see his shoulders visibly tense, his face look away, and the pitch of his voice get higher, exactly the way a child would when confronted by his older brother. It made you realize that he wasn't recounting that line - he was reliving it. Rory McCann is six feet, six inches tall, and the Hound is one of the most terrifying killers in Westeros... but in that one moment, all I saw was a scared little boy. Edited May 19, 2014 by Independent George

[jeansheridan]

Big puppy brown eyes help!  The actors add so much more nuance than their book versions.  The books do better at plotting & world building.  The show does better at pacing and characterization.  The characters are growing more on screen.  Martin falls back on his own cliches within the books maybe because he has too many characters to tract.  

[ellystar]

I think I'm in the minority, but I think it's way too early to introduce Lady Stoneheart. I feel like it should be one of the mini-climaxes next season - maybe E4 or E5.

I kind of agree think it would be cool to introduce Lady Stoneheart this season, but not who she actually is... er, was until next season.

[Lady S.]

I just hope we get the Frey-hanging ASOS epilogue for her first appearance instead of Brienne's capture. Catelyn becoming Lady Stoneheart is not a good thing at all, so I guess I shouldn't want cheers for Frey-hanging. But her character got disservice by the show before she died, I'm not looking forward to reactions of "oh, this bitch back to cause more trouble for characters we like".

[jeansheridan]

Is there any way Oberyon can live?  Probably not.  I wonder how they will condense next season?  Merge the two books and follow plotlines halfway?  

 

I would happily cut out the Greyjoys and most of Dany' s plotline and Tyrion  being a slave.  But fans love Dany.  Whenever I speak to nonbook people she is their favorite.

[Fen]

I think we're going to Moat Cailin in the next episode, where we'll see more Iron Born.   I have to wonder whether they might not cut a lot of the Iron Born stuff next season, though?  They're not exactly popular, and the sole time we've seen them this season, they were being staggeringly inept.

 

Also - is it me, or is Balon long overdue being dead at this point in the story?

 

I've talked to some non-book people who were getting a bit tired of Dany's conquest and slave-freeing, and think she's more interesting now that she's actually getting real problems to deal with.  The handling of Jorah's exposure and exile might have a big impact on how she is viewed next season.

[jeansheridan]

I do appreciate seeing Dany grow as a leader and become a proper queen.  She mirrors Jon Snow's journey.  One of the few bits in ADWD I like is Tyrion's analysis of her as a kickass person and he hasn't even met her!  He's just giving out the facts as he knows them.

 

But it's a bit dull on screen.  She doesn't really get to do much which is probably true of most leaders.  (Action things, not policy things).  

 

The Iron Born just aren't all that interesting in any of the books in that there isn't enough interaction between them and the rest of Westeros until the last book.  Even then there aren't any fireworks between Stannis and Yara (what is she called on the show?  I can never remember although I love the actress.  She's plain by actor standards (I'm sure a knockout in RL) and so no nonsense which is why that dungeon scene against the Bastard did not work.  The show & book versions of her would have just gutted that fool.  Big fail on the show's part, but fairly minor.  But it was a glaring error on a show that doesn't make them too often.  Still bugs me however because I love her so much.

 

But the redemption of Theon will be satisfying for fans.  Not that he's totally there yet, but the glimpses are there.

Edited May 25, 2014 by jeansheridan

[Lady S.]

Also - is it me, or is Balon long overdue being dead at this point in the story?

Definitely, since his book counterpart was actually the first usurper to fall after the leeching. The show ignored him almost completely in the war until Stannis named a leech, but it is only a matter of time now, I feel. As far as I can remember, the show's only delayed character deaths, not saved any book characters, so if they were going to start with Balon, why even have 3 leeches instead of two? It doesn't really change the story much to keep him alive until Euron actually comes into the plot. Having Robb be the first death adds more element of surprise and having Balon not be the second either makes the Purple Wedding a surprise too.

[polyhymnia]

I'm not sure that many unsullied are making the connection between the leeches and the king deaths, but maybe that is just the unsullied that I know.

 

I have to say that it is sort of fun and unsettling being unsullied/unspoiled for some of the new plot twists. 

[Hecate7]

I am a bit concerned non-readers will feel it is all a bit much losing Robb & Joffrey & Tywin & Shae.  Zombie-Cat might break them too.  I hate Zombie Cat.  Thus far she isn't on page much but her existence annoys me.  Oh and Bran merging with a tree might be a bit much too.   The book plots start getting more bizarre in 4 & 5 and I hope the show runners make adjustments.

Fire-breathing dragons hatching out of petrified eggs in the lap of a girl who sat unburnt with them during her husband's creation is less bizarre than a boy becoming one with a tree? A giant army of zombies is heading down from the North, and a bunch of people keep getting resurrected by Beric Dondarrion, but Zombie Cat is too much?

 

It's an epic fantasy subverted into the magic realism genre. The magic stuff is there. If you tone down Bran's plot you might as well cut it. I don't care for UnCat, but she's obviously critical to the story.

[Holmbo]

One of the few bits in ADWD I like is Tyrion's analysis of her as a kickass person and he hasn't even met her!  He's just giving out the facts as he knows them.

 

I liked that too. I hope they have it in the show. It's always nice to have the characters voice out loud what they think about each other since we don't get their thoughts.

[Lady S.]

Fire-breathing dragons hatching out of petrified eggs in the lap of a girl who sat unburnt with them during her husband's creation is less bizarre than a boy becoming one with a tree? A giant army of zombies is heading down from the North, and a bunch of people keep getting resurrected by Beric Dondarrion, but Zombie Cat is too much?

I don't think Beric resurrected anyone before UnCat, and he finally dies thanks to that. And I believe Thoros was only resurrecting Beric, there were no other undead members of the BwB, and no mentions of reviving murdered civilians. One man, Beric Dondarrion, keeps getting resurrected by Thoros, but AFAIK, there were no "bunch of people" being resurrected by Beric in turn.

[GreyBunny]

In the books it's emphasized that magic is returning to the world so we're beginning to see more of the supernatural stuff.  Was it ever expressly stated in the show (I don't remember) or is that something the viewers are left to figure out for themselves?

[Haldebrandt]

In the books it's emphasized that magic is returning to the world so we're beginning to see more of the supernatural stuff.  Was it ever expressly stated in the show (I don't remember) or is that something the viewers are left to figure out for themselves?

 

I don't think so, but somehow the TWOP/PTV Unsullied arrived at the same conclusion in previous years.  I think it's based on the return of the WWs and the Thoros's newfound powers of resurrection.  Not sure that's enough to figure it out, or whether they were contaminated by stealthy Bookwalkers.

 

When I was reading the books I thought dragons somehow "caused" magic.  At least that's why several characters in the books suggested.  But it seems the online fandom consensus is the other way around, which does make more sense.

 

In any event, if the return of magic is an important part of the story, then I think a character needs to observe it and state it outright for the casual viewers that comprise the overwhelming majority of the audience.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Haldebrandt

[Meredith Quill]

In the books it's emphasized that magic is returning to the world so we're beginning to see more of the supernatural stuff.  Was it ever expressly stated in the show (I don't remember) or is that something the viewers are left to figure out for themselves?

In the S2 finale whilst captive at The House of The Undying, Pyat Pree tells Dany "when your dragons were born our magic was born again". So it's a fairly easy leap from that that magic is returning to the world.

[mac123x]

In any event, if the return of magic is an important part of the story, then I think a character needs to observe it and state it outright for the casual viewers that comprise the overwhelming majority of the audience.

 

Mellisandre's astonishment that Thoros was able to bring Beric back 6 times was a good example of that, given all the things she can do.

[blixie]

 

In the S2 finale whilst captive at The House of The Undying, Pyat Pree tells Dany "when your dragons were born our magic was born again". So it's a fairly easy leap from that that magic is returning to the world.

 

Yeah, I think even a slow on the uptake view would get it: Dragon eggs hatch, the comet, Melly's shadow baby, warging, and WW, and green dreams, and I think it's actually being highlighted when KL/Westerosi people dismiss outright as possible. We've seen Tywin/Cersei and others laughing off magic whilst the show has repeatedly portrayed magical things a happenin'. They should be able to grok that this is NEW and also a return to what used to be. Almost like time is a  flat circle!

[Meredith Quill]

Yeah, I think even a slow on the uptake view would get it: Dragon eggs hatch, the comet, Melly's shadow baby, warging, and WW, and green dreams, and I think it's actually being highlighted when KL/Westerosi people dismiss outright as possible. We've seen Tywin/Cersei and others laughing off magic whilst the show has repeatedly portrayed magical things a happenin'. They should be able to grok that this is NEW and also a return to what used to be. Almost like time is a  flat circle!

I got the TD reference there! ;)

[Hecate7]

So the Hound's brother assumed he was stealing and burned his face off. Sort of makes sense of why he refused to steal until very recently, doesn't it? Not being a thief wasn't just the one thing he could still cling to, it was also his way of proving to himself (and his family, if they were paying attention), that he hadn't deserved it.

[Winnief]

So here are some thoughts of mine....

 

As I said in the Episode 8 speculation thread, they are clearly moving very, VERY quickly through Sansa's material-they've already got the Lords Declarent appearing next episode, and they'll definitely be into TWOW material for Sansa starting in early Season 5-maybe even by the completion of this season.  Now this actually makes me hopeful, because the only reason to accelerate Sansa's storyline so much is because D&D know there are some very, VERY big things in store for her, and they're hoping to get the ball rolling on that sooner rather than later to fit it all in.  Which makes me very excited to see what happens next season since I don't know what that is-but it also means the show could start spoiling the books on one very key plotline as early as beginning of next season.  (Unless TWOW manages to come out before April 2015-kinda doubtful.)  The Unsullied shall soon have the last laugh...

 

I also think similar reasons correspond to the quick pace of Brienne/Podrick's travels-I think they'll meet LSH in "The Children," and I think Jaime will actually have a face to face meeting with UnCat in Season Five.  (I get shivers just thinking about it.)  I just don't think they're going to waste time having Jaime wandering around the riverlands all next season, when so much of his crucial character development has already been happening.  (Remember one thing with the Arya/Hound road trip is that it's been critical in showing just how feral and detached Arya's becoming-in a sense her assassin training has already begun.)  They can't just have Jaime disappear on the show like they did in the books-it won't work.  

 

Also I think Cersei's showdown with Margaery will happen pretty quickly next season as well-after all they've already laid out all the groundwork for the rivalry there. 

[Meredith Quill]

Which makes me very excited to see what happens next season since I don't know what that is-but it also means the show could start spoiling the books on one very key plotline as early as beginning of next season.  (Unless TWOW manages to come out before April 2015-kinda doubtful.)  The Unsullied shall soon have the last laugh...

BIB - I'm keeping the faith that that is exactly when it will be out by, especially in light of his editors recent comment of 'expecting it reasonably soon'. :)

[Mormegil]

 

Also - is it me, or is Balon long overdue being dead at this point in the story?

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Theon is given the news of his Father's death in the next episode.

 

It will be interesting to see if Victarion gets a name check when Theon talks to Ralf Kenning.

 

 

If not I think he has probably been written out.

[Winnief]

 

 

It will be interesting to see if Victarion gets a name check when Theon talks to Ralf Kenning.

If not I think he has probably been written out.

 

I'm almost positive Victarion has been written out already-consider the number of ships Dany has in Mereen, is the exact number that Victarion brings to the city, and we can see that his sole purpose in the storyline has been managed away.  I also doubt they'll keep Damp Hair either-he's a snooze of a character.

 

The only real question for me is whether they include Euron or not-one thing he has going for him, is that they're rapidly killing off a lot of their other great villains, so he might enter the tale in Season Five, (or maybe not appear until Season 6-they've delayed other character's entrances like the Reed's and the BwB before) to be the new Character We Love to Hate.  

[Holmbo]

I don't know where Aegon's story line is going but I agree it doesn't feel like the show would benefit from it.
The only problem I can see with cutting him so far is that they have to figure out a new secrete agenda for Varys. What is the new reason for him plotting with Illyrio in the begining of season one?
 

With the IB I think they will introduce one uncle to Yara which will take the throne and then go and pillage old town if that's important to the story.

It's much harder to speculate about this than it has been before. Because we don't know if these events or characters will be important. The fact that the show seems to only plan for two more seasons after they're done with the book part make me feel like most new plots introduced in the last two books will not be crucial.

Edited June 1, 2014 by Holmbo

[sunflower]

 

The fact that the show seems to only plan for two more seasons after they're done with the book part make me feel like most new plots introduced in the last two books will not be crucial.

 

I feel that the show is going to go off the rails once they're through book 5.  I know that GRRM has told Weiss and Benioff how things end with an outline, but that's not the same as having a 800+ page book in front of you to devour and play with for the show.  If there was no book, would we really get an entire season of Tyrion, their main character, off to the side in jail.  The books dictates certain story directions, but, I feel, without TWOW in front of them, they'll write the show more TV style than book.  They've done it already with Jamie getting to KL before Joff buys it and that one story thread affected how Jamie and Cersei's sex scene in the sept was perceived.  I guess, I'm concerned with loss of nuance and interesting plot/story constructions.  

Edited June 1, 2014 by sunflower

[Winnief]

 

 

I don't know where Aegon's story line is going but I agree it doesn't feel like the show would benefit from it.

The only problem I can see with cutting him so far is that they have to figure out a new secrete agenda for Varys. What is the new reason for him plotting with Illyrio in the begining of season one?

 

They'll just explain it away as Varys plotting about what to do about Daenerys and Viserys.  Easy breezy.  

 

 

I feel that the show is going to go off the rails once they're through book 5.  I know that GRRM has told Weiss and Benioff how things end with an outline, but that's not the same as having a 800+ page book in front of you to devour and play with for the show.  If there was no book, would we really get an entire season of Tyrion, their main character, off to the side in jail.  The books dictates certain story directions, but, I feel, without TWOW in front of them, they'll write the show more TV style than book.  They've done it already with Jamie getting to KL before Joff buys it and that one story thread affected how Jamie and Cersei's sex scene in the sept was perceived.  I guess, I'm concerned with loss of nuance and interesting plot/story constructions.

I'm not too worried about that for covering TWOW material-even though it looks increasingly likely the book won't come out in time, I suspect that D&D have access to all kinds of finished or rough chapters, outlines, and notes to work with there to get the "tone" right.  Remember Martin released the "Mercy" chapter in part because D&D used it for the show.  

 

No, the real question for me is Season 7-Martin says he hasn't written a word of that yet, so even though D&D know what events are going to take place and how it ends, they're just not going to have source material to help guide them.  I'm hoping that by that point, that not only will Martin have written something for ADOS, but that D&D will have a pretty good handle on all the character's voices.  Yes, they've done plenty of missteps in the past but they've also had moments of sheer brilliance like Arya/Twyin and Arya/the Hound as well.  In any event at least we'll get some closure about how all this ends.

[jjjmoss]

Hoping that since the writers effed up Sansa's great book stuff, now that they should have a lot more freedom with her material, it'll come off as a lot more interesting, perhaps even giving her back some of the agency they like to play keep away with when it comes to her character.

 

ETA: I guess they only fail at this when they're adapting her chapters, but are arguably even better than GRRM at making her a real person when they come up with their original material. Hooray.

Edited June 2, 2014 by jjjmoss

[elzin]

If Oberyn didn't have a private meal with Tywin in the show, I wonder if that makes it less likely that Oberyn poisoned Tywin and Tyrion killed a dead-man-walking.  I like the idea that Oberyn's vengeance was so complete he was taking Tywin down too. I know it was never confirmed that Oberyn poisoned Tywin, but once I read the hypothesis, it really settled in my brain as "Yeah, he did it."  I know too that it could have really happened in book-land and D&D didn't throw it in, or even that they never picked up on it themselves, but I was really hoping for MOAR VENGEANCE from Oberyn (who otherwise was perfection).  Even just a hint of it, but alas.... Like the person who hired the guy who tried to stab Bran, it'll be bookwalker stuff. I'd have loved a summer of unsullied and tv-only people discussing it.

[joliefaire]

^  I'm right with you there.  LOVED that theory/hint that Oberyn was poisoning Tywin.  And totally believe it.  I don't know, maybe they can hint at it in ep. 10?  I liked that they had Oberyn during the duel pointing at Tywin and saying 'Who gave the order??!!'   Lets' keep fingers and toes crossed that they drop heavy hints in ep. 10.

 

Buh-bye, Viper.  We loved you well.  *meep*

[benteen]

I wonder if Robin is getting the "Harry the Heir" role.

[Winnief]

 

 

Hoping that since the writers effed up Sansa's great book stuff, now that they should have a lot more freedom with her material, it'll come off as a lot more interesting, perhaps even giving her back some of the agency they like to play keep away with when it comes to her character.

ETA: I guess they only fail at this when they're adapting her chapters, but are arguably even better than GRRM at making her a real person when they come up with their original material. Hooray.

 

I know!  This is actually already a more interesting direction than in the books...Sansa and LF working together to build up a power base in the Vale...but with her being in a position to turn on him if/when she finds out more about what he's done.  And LOVE her new look...she's either turning into a Player or turning Dark or both but its definitely getting interesting.  

 

 

I wonder if Robin is getting the "Harry the Heir" role.

 

Quite possibly.  That LF's plan, (like Lysa's) might be to marry Sansa to SR and let them be his puppet rulers, (note on the show it's not so evident that SR is sickly and unlikely to live to adulthood.)  But I really, doubt that Sansa's going to let herself be married off to anyone now as part of an arrangement thank you very much.

[jjjmoss]

Possibly no Myranda, or a less prominent role for her? In the book she makes Sansa blush easily and insists on being modest about how she's a Lady, but Sansa in this episode revealed who she is (which is bigger than Myranda's position) and the whole new outfit and confidence when it comes to addressing Petyr makes me think she'll be less likely to play the blushing little girl.

 

I guess it might depend on who the Lords share her identity with...

[Haldebrandt]

We have another scene with Jaime and Tyrion, and what do we do with it?  Clarify something from the thousand page book to which we supposedly lack the time to do justice?  For example... remind the audience about Tysha?  Something, anything from the books?  NOPE:

 

Let's waste SEVERAL MINUTES on D&D's patented, tedious, and endless monologues about completely irrelevant/invented characters, that do NOTHING to advance the story or shed any kind of light on characters.  Unfuckingbelievable.  They keep doing this shit.  Worst bit of dialog in a very very long time.

 

KUHN KUHN KUHN!

[mac123x]

I've seen several people say it was an analogy for Tyrion's theological beliefs (or lack thereof).  The brain-damaged cousin = the gods, the beetles = humans.  You can spend a lifetime trying to understand the gods' motivations, but in the end it's a fruitless undertaking.

[Minneapple]

I know!  This is actually already a more interesting direction than in the books...Sansa and LF working together to build up a power base in the Vale...but with her being in a position to turn on him if/when she finds out more about what he's done.  And LOVE her new look...she's either turning into a Player or turning Dark or both but its definitely getting interesting.  

Sansa's character development is definitely faster than it is in the books. There are times when I want to scream "GET IT ALREADY!" at her in the books. But Show Sansa seems to get it now. Even her words to LIttlefinger -- "If they had executed you, what would they have done to me?" -- shows that she's looking out for herself and plotting ahead.

 

And, if she's plotting and building up a power base and these are signs of what's to come in Winds of Winter, I wonder if Maggy's prophecy about Cersei being struck down by a younger, more beautiful queen refers to Sansa and not Dany.

 

Can't take credit for this, I saw it on tumblr -- but people are saying that Tyrion's story is about GRRM, who is the cousin killing the beetles. He's randomly killing the beetles and you don't know why and there's no reason for it -- well, that's GRRM killing his characters.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Minneapple

[Haldebrandt]

I've seen several people say it was an analogy for Tyrion's theological beliefs (or lack thereof).  The brain-damaged cousin = the gods, the beetles = humans.  You can spend a lifetime trying to understand the gods' motivations, but in the end it's a fruitless undertaking.

Eh... Sepinwall too seems to find some value in that scene (calling the dialog "excellent" (!)) so perhaps it's not a total loss.  Kuhn kuhn kuhn...

[yellowfred]

So, one of the things that's starting to annoy me about the way they are interpreting the books is that they keep having characters behave differently and make different choices, but it never seems to actually change what happens to them.  Like, in this episode, Jorah did almost exactly what book!Dany wished he would do, so that she could forgive him (he wasn't arrogant, he didn't act like she owed him anything), but it didn't change her ultimate decision.  It was the same thing a few weeks ago, with Shae.  The fact that show!Shae not only had a more genuine relationship with Tyrion, but also a genuine friendship with Sansa, had almost no impact on the testimony she ended up giving.  

 

I guess I can buy that, since Dany found out after she already held Mereen, she didn't have any suicide mission to send him on, which was how she dealt with her initial anger in the books, so she was still mostly in the angry place when she sent him away.  Just like I can maybe buy that Shae was angry enough with Tyrion to throw Sansa under the bus with him (okay, I still can't really buy that, but I'm moving on).  At the same time, though, it seems more and more like, in the show's world, terrible things happen because they are inevitable, rather than because people are terrible and frequently make terrible decisions.

[Haldebrandt]

I think I'm in the minority, but I think it's way too early to introduce Lady Stoneheart. I feel like it should be one of the mini-climaxes next season - maybe E4 or E5.

At this point, with no set up what so ever (e.g., just one scene indicating that someone's been hanging Freys), I agree with you.  Sure, it wasn't set up in the books either, but this is a different medium.  It will not be well-received beyond the teenage crowd if they just spring this thing on the audience.

[Winnief]

 

And, if she's plotting and building up a power base and these are signs of what's to come in Winds of Winter, I wonder if Maggy's prophecy about Cersei being struck down by a younger, more beautiful queen refers to Sansa and not Dany.

 

I've been wondering that for a long time too.  Cersei thinks it's Margaery so it won't be Margaery since Cersei always gets this stuff wrong.  Arianne apparently isn't making it to the show so not her. Myrcella gets scarred and far worse, she's not destined to live very long.  Dany might work-she's certainly an extraordinary young beauty and logistically she's in a great position to someday be Queen of Westeros and stomp on Lannister's-but the prophecy said the younger more beautiful Queen would take away what Cersei held most dear, (which is her children and Jaime) and Dany played no role for instance in Joffrey's death.  And frankly at the rate its taking Dany to get to Westeros, most of the damage to Cersei will be done or in motion LONG before she arrives on the scene.

 

Sansa on the other hand, DID play a role in that-however unknowingly at the time, and since Brienne gets Jaime to leave the Lannister camp by saying they have to help Sansa, you can argue she played a role in 'taking' Jaime away from Cersei as well.  And who knows?  While I doubt Sansa will intentionally be participating in campaigns to kill Tommen and Myrcella, her politicking against the Lannister's might well set things in motion which contribute to those coming deaths.  

 

There's also a narrative issue here; frankly there's no real drama or emotional resonance if Dany is the younger, more beautiful Queen, because there's no personal relationship or interaction of ANY kind in person or via correspondence between those two.  But Sansa on the other hand...that's as personal as it gets.  That has emotional power, and karmic retribution all over it, and considering all their past interactions it would be so, so sweet to have Cersei overthrown by the 'silly, stupid, girl' she was so dismissive of.  Also, I keep going back to their scenes at the battle of Blackwater between the two of them and the contrast between their behavior-Sansa the model of self control and discipline showing grace under pressure with Cersei throwing herself a booze soaked pity party then making the  disastrous decision to have Joffrey withdrawn from the battlefield before leaving the room in a tantrum.  When the chips were down, Sansa the teenage hostage was far more Queenly than the actual Queen Regent Cersei...perhaps this was foreshadowing?!?

 

Now, there are of course two major objections to Sansa being the younger more beautiful Queen;

 

1. She doesn't particularly want the job.  Old Sansa did-New Sansa doesn't and in fact never even wants to see the Red Keep again.

 

2.  She doesn't have a birth claim and the only way she could become Queen would be via marriage.  Her current husband, Tyrion may be Hand of the King (or Queen) again someday but he'll never be King.  It's entirely possible though, that the marriage could be put aside or Sansa widowed.  Any Vale suitors be they Harry or Robyn only rule in the Vale.  Stannis is married and a whole host of other problems too.  Aegon, might on Varys's advice seek Sansa's hand, but I think it's more likely he'll end up marrying Arianne and he's almost certainly a fraud anyway and might not even make it to the show.  

Now Jon is possible-he's got the claim to the IT, as will soon be known, he's actually a first cousin rather than Sansa's half-brother as will soon be known, and has a very good chance of being King after the dust settles from the coming battle with the White Walkers-but nevertheless he and Sansa were raised as brother and sister and the pseudo incest angle is going to tough to swallow.  (Though not nearly as tough as Jon/Dany would be...that's just gross.)

[Alapaki]

2.  She doesn't have a birth claim and the only way she could become Queen would be via marriage.

 

 

But it's also possible that by some circumstance Sansa makes it back North and declares herself "Queen of the North", the way Robb declared himself King.  Without Tywin to oversee a war to keep the Realm united, I'd think that a fracturing into separate Kingdoms is much more likely.

[Brn2bwild]

 

Arianne apparently isn't making it to the show so not her.

Just because her character wasn't included in one casting announcement doesn't mean she's not making it to the show.  It's also possible that Aegon could be cast for this season, just that we haven't heard yet.

[blixie]

 

but I was really hoping for MOAR VENGEANCE from Oberyn

IKR? Man, they better drop a significant hint, I loved that Headless Ser Robert aside, Oberyn DID get his vengeance on both people he holds responsible that are still breathing when arrives in KL.

 

 

frankly there's no real drama or emotional resonance if Dany is the younger, more beautiful Queen,

 

Eh, it's a prophecy, and there are so many many prophecies, they can't all be correct, especially not the letter, that'd be annoying, and Cersei in particular is so stupid that I'd love if Maggy was just stooging her. I mean her friend dies because paranoid Cersei KILLS her right? So I see it largely about driving Cerseit to self fulfill the prophecy Maggy fortold. I tend to interpret the prophecies as true but almost never in the way the person expects going all the way back to Rhaegar.

 

 

I wonder if Robin is getting the "Harry the Heir" role.

 

I think it's very possible and I like the idea that LF sees a bit of his own deprived/underestimated youth in Robyn, but I can also see him disposing of Robyn at the drop of a hat. One of my big issues with LF is we still don't, or at least I still don't get what the fuck he's after (other than the ultimate broad stroke of everything, and the details of Sansa and some abstraction of power). How exactly does he imagine Harry/Sansa will rule Westeros? I just see way too many fucking variables in the way of that, and no real reason why the people of Westeros will champion those two, at the expense of every other potential player.