Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Fen]

If Ellaria's chat with Jaime had a point, I think it was

 

• to try to disarm Jaime by convincing him she wasn't so bad and that she understood him.  Who know whether or not it works.

   

• to signal to viewers that Cersei is on her death list.  Ellaria said she didn't blame Myrcella and acknowledged that Jaime might be innocent.  Ellaria said nothing about Cersei.

 

I'm not saying this was the point, but it was all the sense I could make of it.

 

Yes - I was puzzled by that scene, too.  Not only was it a total shift in her character - I don't understand what I was supposed to take from it.  Is she being sly?  Sincere?  Was there a message?

[nksarmi]

Just playing a bit of devil's advocate here:

Barristan is a POV character in the next book too.

 

Not that I think Sansa will die in the finale, far from it. But that's not the best argument to use. ;) 

I didn't know that - damn, there went THAT justification.

Edited June 8, 2015 by nksarmi

[nksarmi]

Seriously? Stannis made a terrible decision, which he did not do with glee, to kill a child in order to win a war. What a shitty and terrible choice to make, but really? REALLY? Ramsay kills and tortures because HE LIKES IT. Roose talks about rape the way he discusses the weather. Melisandre has always been a batshit crazy religious fanatic. And Stannis, kills a child to win a war (which is how he sees it right or wrong) is in the same sentence with those other three?

I never particularly liked Stannis except for his hilarious schoolmarm ways, but fuck. REALLY? How often in television and movies do we hear how the hero's decision to save one person, child, cat, dog, whatever, reverberates into a massive war that kills hundreds of thousands? If this works, if this is the absolutely only way to save the North, all of the small folk, all of the children and the precious pretty princess Sansa, is anyone going to argue that Stannis is on Ramsay level?

If I'm Stannis and I'm at the top of a cliff and I can either kill Shireen or save the rest of Westeros, children included, Shireen is going. Sorry honey. I cannot cope with the guilt of letting thousands die, not that I'd be good with killing my own child, but yeah, that's the choice I'd make. It wouldn't make me Ramsay Fucking Bolton.

I'm sorry but no - Stannis did not kill a child to save the rest of Westeros.  He killed HIS daughter to some Lord of Light I am not even convinced he believes in.  I think it's a perfectly reasonable reaction to wonder if when a god asks you to sacrifice your child if that's really God speaking at all - and yes I am referencing the Abraham and Isaac story of the Bible.  That story bothers the hell out of me, but Abraham was let off the hook because he didn't have to follow through - his God was merciful and only wanted Abraham to be willing.  Mel's Lord of Light (who is apparently capable of resurrecting the dead) took Shirleen away while Stannis watched her burn.

 

And honestly, Mel and Stannis' plan for him to ascend the Iron Throne so that he can be AA reborn and save Westerous from the Long Night makes no f-ing sense! That's probably why all she sees is SNOW in the books.  Because AA doesn't need to take KL and the Iron Throne.  If he IS who she says he is - the Lord of Light will strike all of his enemies and no freaking child sacrifice should be needed.  The problem is that Stannis isn't the hero of this story - he is a villain.  He is a man so obsessed with a single objective that he would burn the world to the ground to accomplish it. 

 

For goodness sake, a week ago we thought Roose would betray Ramsey as a parallel to Stannis would never betray his daughter.  Now I'd bet money that Roose and Ramsey won't betray each other just to highlight how f-ed up you have to be to give your own child up to "save the world."

 

The world better damn well hope it never depends on me killing MY child to save it, because we are all screwed if that is the case. 

[BlackberryJam]

It's Shireen, not Shirleen. Not sure if you're having an autocorrect issue there.

 

But yes, he killed his daughter. So if you think he doesn't believe in the LoL, why did he do it? Have we seen or read anything that makes us think he likes the smell of burning flesh? That he just burns people for kicks? The kinds of things Ramsay would do? What do you think his motivation was? Because I don't get it.

 

Fuck. I can't believe I'm defending an asshole like Stannis, but damn. He is no Ramsay. He is no Roose. He is no Joffrey. He is no Melisandre. 

[The Mormegil]

There was a spoiler at the beginning of the season that we'd have four named characters dead this season that are still alive in the books.  So far, it's been:  Mance, Ser Barristan, and now Shireen and Hizdar in E5.09.  Does this mean Meryn Trant isn't going to die next episode?  Damn.

 

I wonder could the poison that Arya was given just be water?

 

The whole thing with the Thin Man could just be a test to see if Arya would go through with it. She uses the "Poison" on Trant expecting him to die but nothing happens.

[magdalene]

 

The world better damn well hope it never depends on me killing MY child to save it, because we are all screwed if that is the case.

Indeed. I would destroy worlds to save my child. I certainly wouldn't kill my child for the reason Stannis did. And any god who asked it of me could go fuck themselves. I also don't believe the spiel that Stannis did this out of altruism. He did it for power and ambition.

[benteen]

That's one of the problems.  Roose, who is a truly awful person, won't kill his son.  Even though he'd be doing the North a huge favor.  Roose won't kill his child but Stannis will?  Stannis did it as a sacrifice to the Red God, which is even worse.  Even when three kings died in the books after the leeching, Stannis was dubious of the Red God's power and was very reluctant to burn Edric.  I think he definitely would have but still...Melisandre tells him to do something, Stannis does it like a little lap dog.  No matter how awful it is.  I know Stannis does what he wants regardless of the outcome but seriously...who is going to want form an alliance with someone who burned his own daughter alive to appease his fanatical Red Priestess?  Who would send their offspring over to marry his child, knowing what he's capable of?  Of, that's right, he doesn't even have an heir anymore! 

 

TV Stannis might not be a sadistic bastard like Ramsay is but to me he's just as bad.

Edited June 8, 2015 by benteen

[nksarmi]

It's Shireen, not Shirleen. Not sure if you're having an autocorrect issue there.

 

But yes, he killed his daughter. So if you think he doesn't believe in the LoL, why did he do it? Have we seen or read anything that makes us think he likes the smell of burning flesh? That he just burns people for kicks? The kinds of things Ramsay would do? What do you think his motivation was? Because I don't get it.

 

Fuck. I can't believe I'm defending an asshole like Stannis, but damn. He is no Ramsay. He is no Roose. He is no Joffrey. He is no Melisandre. 

Because he believes the Iron Throne is his by right and as he told Davos, he would not be the "King who ran."  He could have found another way - he could have asked Jon to send men to help them get back to the Wall and Winter at Castle Black like Davos said. But no, Stannis said we go forward to victory or defeat and since he made that call - not even Shireen could be spared.  He would rather be the man who died than the king who ran. 

 

I have never heard Stannis even whisper a line that made me think he was a true believer.  He recognizes that Mel has power and gets results, but I believe 100% that if Bran were before him with all the power of the three-eyed crow able to do the spectacular things we believe Bran will be able to do and he appeared to be a cleaner path to victory than Mel - Stannis would abandon her and hatch his wagon to the "old gods" in a heartbeat.

 

If you think differently of him, that is fine, but I don't.  You are right, he is no Roose or Ramsey or Mel.  To me, he is far worse.

[Fable]

I'm not shocked that Shireen was burned, but the way it happened shocked me.

 

I agree.  I felt the show was pretty much telegraphing this might happen, and though I was daring to hope it wouldn't, I knew it could, but never in a million years did I see it coming the way it did.  That was emotionally brutal!

[Avaleigh]

Seriously? Stannis made a terrible decision, which he did not do with glee, to kill a child in order to win a war. What a shitty and terrible choice to make, but really? REALLY? Ramsay kills and tortures because HE LIKES IT. Roose talks about rape the way he discusses the weather. Melisandre has always been a batshit crazy religious fanatic. And Stannis, kills a child to win a war (which is how he sees it right or wrong) is in the same sentence with those other three?

I never particularly liked Stannis except for his hilarious schoolmarm ways, but fuck. REALLY? How often in television and movies do we hear how the hero's decision to save one person, child, cat, dog, whatever, reverberates into a massive war that kills hundreds of thousands? If this works, if this is the absolutely only way to save the North, all of the small folk, all of the children and the precious pretty princess Sansa, is anyone going to argue that Stannis is on Ramsay level?

If I'm Stannis and I'm at the top of a cliff and I can either kill Shireen or save the rest of Westeros, children included, Shireen is going. Sorry honey. I cannot cope with the guilt of letting thousands die, not that I'd be good with killing my own child, but yeah, that's the choice I'd make. It wouldn't make me Ramsay Fucking Bolton.

I get what you're saying and if the choice for Stannis had been that straightforward then I would have found his choice somewhat more understandable even if I know that I wouldn't be capable of doing the same thing. I don't have any children yet but I'm just putting my loved ones in the place of Shireen and if somebody told me that burning one of them would make ISIS go away or something like that I know that I personally wouldn't be able to light the match. No way. We'd have to figure out some other way to get rid of the problem or die trying. At the risk of going all Cabin in the Woods for a moment, if burning little kids alive is what it's going to take to save this crap world then maybe they just need to let it go. 

 

One of my big problems with this is that Stannis seems to have killed his only child because he has decided to have faith in Melisandre and the Lord of Light. It isn't like he knows for sure at all that Shireen's death is going to do anything to help save the realm and thousands of people. Melisandre's leech spell hasn't even killed Balon yet but somehow this isn't a factor for Stannis at all. How is this not full on proof that Mel isn't always right about everything? Just in the last episode we saw that he had his doubts. What exactly has changed for him to go to the ultimate extreme when he'd just been telling Mel firmly that they'd need to find another way? There's also no way that Stannis can say for sure that Melisandre's spell was responsible for the deaths of Joffrey and Robb anyway. He's just hoping that this is the case. 

 

He sacrificed his daughter in the *hope* that Melisandre is right. To me that's a long way from killing one person in order to save thousands. 

 

I find it very hard to believe that book Stannis would have given the okay on this. I'm not saying it's impossible and the Edric Storm thing has put him forever on my shit list, but I'm just not convinced given everything that we know so far. I'm even on the fence about book Selyse being okay with it. 

 

I agree with those who think that there was plenty of foreshadowing regarding Shireen's eventual death. When I think back to how disturbed she was by the people Mel burned on Dragonstone and how she called Mel out on the bullshit she was trying to sell her about how the burning was similar to the experience of giving birth. Shireen saw through her instantly and it was like Mel knew even then that Shireen would end up having this happen to her. 

 

Right now I'm having my doubts as to whether or not Shireen's murder will be able to help Jon since I'd always assumed that if burning Shireen was apart of bringing Jon back to life that the burning would happen after Jon had been stabbed. 

[benteen]

One of the most frustrating aspects of this decision is that Book Stannis is a compelling and complex character.  If adapted correctly, TV Stannis could have been a great and memorable TV character.  But because of their plain dislike of the character and willingness to create controversy for the sake of controversy (Stannis burning Shireen), Stannis has been little more than a one-dimensional villain on the show.  One who hasn't been that popular with the viewers.  The Game of Thrones books are known for subverting tropes (sometimes this is true, sometimes it isn't) but the writers are walking right into another trope by turning Stannis into a full-fledged bad guy so they can justify the noble Brienne killing him.  It's a waste of a memorable book character.  It's not Stephan Dillane's fault.  His acting has always been good but he never truly got to play Book Stannis on this show because of the writers dislike, disinterest and creative laziness when it came to the character.

Edited June 8, 2015 by benteen

[BlackberryJam]

Sorry but no. The trope subverted is the parent unwilling to sacrifice their child. And GRRM loves tropes and only subverts when convenient

[Avaleigh]

Stannis has absolutely descended to Melisandre's level. 

 

I still disagree with the idea though that the showrunners hate characters like Stannis and Jaime. I just think they have a different interpretation of them and even when I feel like they get it totally wrong I don't think it's because they're deliberately trying to make the character hateful. 

 

Who's worse Stannis or Ramsay?

 

I'd rather be a prisoner of Stannis. I'd rather be the wife of Stannis. It would be better to be a common person under Stannis (unless of course that common person is a prostitute). It would be better to have Stannis judge a trial than Ramsay. Stannis would be a better lord or king than Ramsay. 

 

Sure, Stannis wins the race against Ramsay as far as who is the more horrible person. It's sad though that Stannis has plummeted to being a couple of steps above the freaking Boltons. This guy burned his kid alive and watched it happen! They really don't make them much lower than that. (I say they don't make them much lower because as awful as her death was Theon is totally right in that it can always, always be worse especially when it comes to ASOIAF.)

[Winnief]

I still consider Stannis better than Ramsay, but after all this, it's pretty hard to root for him with any *enthusiasm* as did before. 

 

And from what they're saying Martin Ok'd this storyline, (unlike Sansa's rape which he clearly disliked,) AND is apparently going to have something along similar lines happen in the books, so I think we're gonna have to put the ultimate blame on GRRM for a change instead of D&D.  I get that the series is supposed to be dark and bleak, but really at some point, people are going to need Hope here...

[BlackberryJam]

Book Stannis is a cold fish asshole who is down with burning people. Look, I like him. He's funny. He is the only one who answered the Night's Watch call. But he is fine with BURNING HUMAN BEINGS. Alive. Torching them. Watching them scream. 

 

At least the show humanized him some from the rigid dickwad he is in the books. Now yes, he's a badass rigid dickwad, but still a dickwad. Who is fine with burning human beings. Like he wouldn't have torched his enemies if he'd won at the Blackwater. 

 

Stannis was never some warm fuzzy grumpy bear who would be the bestest king ever. He burned people. Alive. And watched. 

 

All of the contenders for the throne kind of suck. But that's the point. You are making a choice between the least shitty ruler. Stannis was just a cut above Joffrey but only because Joffrey hadn't come into his full power and had Tywin around. Stannis is funnier though and he has Davos, who is wonderful. Not that he didn't cut off Davos' fingers and throw him in jail though. Because that's how Stannis is.

[nksarmi]

Book Stannis is a cold fish asshole who is down with burning people. Look, I like him. He's funny. He is the only one who answered the Night's Watch call. But he is fine with BURNING HUMAN BEINGS. Alive. Torching them. Watching them scream. 

 

At least the show humanized him some from the rigid dickwad he is in the books. Now yes, he's a badass rigid dickwad, but still a dickwad. Who is fine with burning human beings. Like he wouldn't have torched his enemies if he'd won at the Blackwater. 

 

Stannis was never some warm fuzzy grumpy bear who would be the bestest king ever. He burned people. Alive. And watched. 

 

All of the contenders for the throne kind of suck. But that's the point. You are making a choice between the least shitty ruler. Stannis was just a cut above Joffrey but only because Joffrey hadn't come into his full power and had Tywin around. Stannis is funnier though and he has Davos, who is wonderful. Not that he didn't cut off Davos' fingers and throw him in jail though. Because that's how Stannis is.

Oh my word, I just realized that Stannis might not have had too much issue with the shit the Mad King did! 

 

You know, I guess when Tyrion said a ruler who kills those devoted to them isn't worth devotion was clueing us in not to like or trust Stannis, but damn it if I didn't miss it.  When we ask how can his men watch him burn their princess, well damn, they watched him burn his brother and other men who followed him for no other reason than they prayed to the gods of their fathers.  Why did I let the actor make me like a character I knew wasn't worth liking?

[mac123x]

Yes - I was puzzled by that scene, too.  Not only was it a total shift in her character - I don't understand what I was supposed to take from it.  Is she being sly?  Sincere?  Was there a message?

 

The only way I can see her going from hostile in the first scene to groveling in the second scene to "hey, Jaime bro, what's up?" in the last scene is if Doran filled her in on his plot, whatever that might be.  She put on a mask of civility with Jaime because she knows Doran is actually actively Seeking Revenge.

 

I don't understand why Jaime didn't notice the sudden shift in attitude.  "Uh, who are you again?  Do you have a split personality, were you recently possessed by a demon, or do you have an evil twin?"

[AshleyN]

So, I've just about finished working through all the stages of grief (for both Shireen's life and Stannis' character) and I think I'm approaching acceptance. And now I'm kind of hoping that they go full Greek tragedy for Stannis - like, once he realizes that Melisandre was wrong and he sold his soul for nothing he ends up going mad. I'm also wondering if he'll end up being the one to kill Mel, before meeting his own demise.

 

If nothing else, it'd give Stephen Dillane something fun to play. He's always been done about as well as could be expected in a thankless role, but I think he's been particularly good this season when he's been given some meatier material to work with.

Edited June 9, 2015 by AshleyN

[Pete Martell]

I still disagree with the idea though that the showrunners hate characters like Stannis and Jaime. I just think they have a different interpretation of them and even when I feel like they get it totally wrong I don't think it's because they're deliberately trying to make the character hateful. 

 

I don't know if the showrunners "hate" Stannis or Jaime, but I think they don't understand them, as they don't really understand most complex characters. The solution is to either water them down to nothing or to just make them a slave to "shock" plotting. And that's how the Shireen scene came across to me, because of poor writing in this episode. 

 

I remember a lot of people thought the show wanted us to hate Jaime, yet we now know that scene was just supposed to be uncontrolled passion and he's actually a long-suffering fight, father and partner who is struggling and slowly beginning to move into a new life. Unfortunately the execution of this story is so terrible it makes him feel utterly superfluous to the canvas. The idea of Jaime slowly beginning to want to will dump his sister and get together with that woman who is on the other side of the world staring pensively at Winterfell every few episodes isn't really all that interesting to watch play out over two seasons. 

[Unknown poster]

So, I've just about finished working through all the stages of grief (for both Shireen's life and Stannis' character) and I think I'm approaching acceptance. And now I'm kind of hoping that they go full Greek tragedy for Stannis - like, once he realizes that Melisandre was wrong and he sold his soul for nothing he ends up going mad. I'm also wondering if he'll end up being the one to kill Mel, before meeting his own demise.

 

If nothing else, it'd give Stephen Dillane something fun to play. He's always been done about as well as could be expected in a thankless role, but I think he's been particularly good this season when he's been given some meatier material to work with.

I wouldn't hold your breath. It seems like the show runners don't even watch the scenes they write for Stannis, so I've no confidence that they will grant him any more subtlety than being a power mad villain from here on out. That said, I completley agree that Stannis is about as close to a Shakespherian character as the show (or books) get. He's the only claimant to the Iron Throne who really understands the big picture, and he's now sacrificed the only person in the world it appears he actually cared about, for the greater good. (I thought Dillane's facial expression in that scene was amazing. The perfect mix of disgust, horror, anguish and determination.) in the end, all his sacrifices are likely to be for naught, and in a way, that seems like punishment enough, or maybe the cruelest punishment of all.

[Oscirus]

Sansa is not going to die anytime soon. She was in nine episodes this season. I doubt that they'd give such a spike to someone getting killed off in episode ten.

 

Looking at the bad ass that he was in Blackwater, I don't see how anybody could think that D&D hate Stannis.

 

If it comes down to a question of who I'd rather work for, the show Boltons. At least they don't turn on their own men. Stannis is liable to burn a man for looking at him wrong.

 

 

[The Mormegil]

If it comes down to a question of who I'd rather work for, the show Boltons. At least they don't turn on their own men. Stannis is liable to burn a man for looking at him wrong.

 

Roose might not turn on his own men but we've already see Ramsay doing it.

 

The bunch of men he told to hunt down Theon and rape him only for Ramsay to come along and kill them all as part of tricking Theon.

Edited June 9, 2015 by The Mormegil

[Advance35]

Sansa is not going to die anytime soon. She was in nine episodes this season. I doubt that they'd give such a spike to someone getting killed off in episode ten.

 

I reserve the right to be wrong (and hope I am), I just don't see where they could possibly go with her character.  What could she do at the Wall IF she were to escape to it.  

 

If she does escape Winterfell is there anyone in Westeros that'll be so hunted.   Cersei and House Lannister will want her to answer for her part in Joffrey's demise (or just Cersei if she get's out of her current predicament), Littlefinger will want his future Highborn Pawn and Lust Object back and Ramsay would swim through a river of blood to regain posession of his pretty, highborn wife.   Sansa seems to appeal to dark men.

[benteen]

I don't know if the showrunners "hate" Stannis or Jaime, but I think they don't understand them, as they don't really understand most complex characters. The solution is to either water them down to nothing or to just make them a slave to "shock" plotting. And that's how the Shireen scene came across to me, because of poor writing in this episode. 

 

I remember a lot of people thought the show wanted us to hate Jaime, yet we now know that scene was just supposed to be uncontrolled passion and he's actually a long-suffering fight, father and partner who is struggling and slowly beginning to move into a new life. Unfortunately the execution of this story is so terrible it makes him feel utterly superfluous to the canvas. The idea of Jaime slowly beginning to want to will dump his sister and get together with that woman who is on the other side of the world staring pensively at Winterfell every few episodes isn't really all that interesting to watch play out over two seasons. 

 

They definitely don't understand Jaime.  I still remember the Inside the Episode featurette after Season 2 where they had Jaime kill his cousin.  Weiss described Jaime as "a monster who loves killing."  Jaime is a lot of things, plenty of them bad.  But a "monster who loves killing" isn't one of them.

 

 

 

 

How do you botch a character as rich as Stannis?  D&D and Cogman have managed to do just that.

 

 

 

I'm curious where Brienne and Sansa (whom I'm assuming will survive) are going to head after the escape.  The Riverlands seems the logical place to go, especially with how bad the winter has become in the North.  We do have the Septon Meribald character being cast and Blackfish is still running around somewhere.  The Stark revenge tour could begin down there if D&D decide to acknowledge that the Freys and the Riverlands still exist.

Edited June 9, 2015 by benteen

[nksarmi]

I still believe Ramsey will die soon. I know Cersei will live, but the girl isnt giving orders to anyone these days. Her wanting Sansa dead meant little before as LF pointed out and it means less now.

I have also resigned myself to the fact that LF is going to get a big hero moment here. Sansa is not going to need to escape because in the aftermath of Roose VS Stannis, LF is going to arrive with Vale troops and save the day.

I might disdain him, but Ive always know that LF would likely be here until the end so maybe he can at least take out some more villains for me before he goes.

I really dont see the wall falling in season six so I think Sansa staying in Winterfell makes sense. And its the best place for Bran to communicate with her on the gods wood. I just hope she keeps rickon a secret until she finds him.

[Advance35]

I still believe Ramsey will die soon. I know Cersei will live, but the girl isnt giving orders to anyone these days. Her wanting Sansa dead meant little before as LF pointed out and it means less now.

 

Won't Cersei be the head of House Lannister again after Varys makes his reappearance?   With Kevan departing, she's back, large and in charge and simmering more than ever with the burning desire to settle scores (actual and percieved).   Ramsay will be in the 6th book so I'm confident he'll make it to the 6th season, I guess I could see a Roose, Ramsay, Sansa, LF free for all match in the North and The Vale for Season 6.  But I just feel like Sansa isn't a sure thing as of now and this is a contrast since I use to think she WOULD make it to the end.

 

But I feel like quite a few main-stays will be off canvas very soon.  There have been quite a few casting calls and I do think the show will need to make room for them.

[Hecate7]

In a way, breaking up with Cersei might be the worst thing Jaime does, and I say this as someone who loves to hate Cersei. He did many awful things when he was selflessly devoted to her, but being selflessly devoted to her on the level he was, isn't something you just take back and direct elsewhere

[Pete Martell]

I could see Ramsay killing Stannis and returning from battle to find Brienne escaping with Sansa. Perhaps Theon jumps Ramsay to distract him, sacrificing his life while Brienne gets her to safety. Or Brienne fights Ramsay, both being seriously wounded with viewers having no idea who will survive to next season, and Sansa flees...with Littlefinger and guards arriving to save her from Bolton men and leave her back where she started, aside from her looking back at Winterfell as they ride away, saying something in dramatic closeup like, "This isn't finished." 

[Avaleigh]

Jaime is my favorite book character so you'll get no argument from me that show Jaime has been a total let down in comparison even though I love NCW in the role. The comment about Jaime supposedly being a monster who loves killing just made me want to bang my head against a wall.

From what we've seen on the show I could have just about bought Stannis going along with this horrific choice if he'd had a stronger reason to think that Melisandre is right. At least in the books the leech spell appears to have worked. Book Stannis seems less likely to go along and he's seen more of her magic than the show version. Stuff like Cortenay Penrose . Show Stannis doesn't ask questions like what will happen if Shireen is burned or why they can't make another shadowbaby or why Balon is apparently still alive.

I actually do think that show Stannis is still a complex guy. I have to agree though that so far I lean towards thinking that his book character would never have done this.

[blixie]

 

Won't Cersei be the head of House Lannister again after Varys makes his reappearance?

 

The Head of House Lannister, and also standing trial for Regicide, and still imprisoned by the Faith. You are making a lot of assumptions about how much power she'll have even IF she's deemed innocent of those charges via Franken Gregor. Even before she was in the her current situation she hadn't tracked down either Sansa OR Tyrion, and she is politically much much worse off  now than she was then. Again the constant in the GoT is that it might works only so much, being a leader requires might, but if might isn't rooted in the good will (trust, respect, admiration) of those you lead, you're fucked. Cersei has been blowing off the North and and ignoring and debasing those she needs to nurture for far too long to pull all of that political capital out of her ass now. Her political capital rests at -205. Chaos is all that will reign in KL and beyond, going forward, which is what Varys wants.

 

 

 

They definitely don't understand Jaime.  I still remember the Inside the Episode featurette after Season 2 where they had Jaime kill his cousin.  Weiss described Jaime as "a monster who loves killing."

 

This, I have never ever gotten over this "reading" of Jamie. Like you are talking about the WRONG fucking Lannister bruh.

Edited June 9, 2015 by blixie

[nksarmi]

Won't Cersei be the head of House Lannister again after Varys makes his reappearance?   With Kevan departing, she's back, large and in charge and simmering more than ever with the burning desire to settle scores (actual and percieved).   Ramsay will be in the 6th book so I'm confident he'll make it to the 6th season, I guess I could see a Roose, Ramsay, Sansa, LF free for all match in the North and The Vale for Season 6.  But I just feel like Sansa isn't a sure thing as of now and this is a contrast since I use to think she WOULD make it to the end.

 

But I feel like quite a few main-stays will be off canvas very soon.  There have been quite a few casting calls and I do think the show will need to make room for them.

I  don't know if Sansa is the YMBQ, but I do believe she will survive everything and be left standing when it is all said and done and I can't even say that about Jon at this point as I feel he might have to die to save the realm.

 

I believe Ramsey will die soon - if not this season, the early next (book six).  And I honestly think he will die before Roose, but we shall see.

 

But back to Cersei, what power does she have?  The last I remember from the books, she is still on trial for her life. She has made plans to seek trial by combat with Frankinmountain but we have no idea how that is going to work out for her. On the show, she is still in jail.  Yes, Kevin is dead in the books, but not yet in the show.  Yes, Tommen is still a boy king and incapable of ruling in both the books and the show. 

 

But Marcella is headed to KL with her uncle daddy (who would be the real leader of House Lannister once Kevin dies and if he chose it, it is unlikely anyone would argue with him about his white cloak).  In the books, both the queen making plot and Aegon headed for Westerous are likely enough to cause chaos galore.  On the show Marcella is going with the prince of Dorne (who I suspect is going to be Aegon) and Dornish men to back and protect her.  Even if Marg can't get herself free and use her marriage to take power - Marcella and Dorne have been setup to fill the void. 

 

Cersei's days of power are finished.  She now has only to go mad once she realizes it.  Besides, do you honesty believe she can regain any royal or noble respect after the Walk?  She is done and she is very literally the only one who cares about Sansa.

 

What is Cersei going to do, go North by herself to kill Sansa while her world is falling about in KL?  Seriously - I don't even know if assassins would believe she could pay them for Sansa's head if she tried to employ them.  No, Sansa's enemies now all reside in the North, but so do her friends.

[benteen]

Gregor Clegane is a monster who loves killing (and raping), not Jaime.  Speaking of Clegane, he met his book fate on the show but that was nowhere near as satisfying.  Gregor was such a non-factor on the show that him "finally getting his" meant nothing.  In the book, though I was disappointed over Oberyn's death, I was glad that Clegane was dying a slow and agonizing death.  He was getting the punishment that was long overdue.  But on the show he was a complete non-factor and never truly put over just how terrible a revenge Oberyn had managed to impose on him even after his own death.

 

It's amusing how the show has forgotten that Balon was supposed to die as one of the three leeches.  D&D love to forget facts when it suits their current script.  In the books, even after all three of them die, Stannis still isn't convinced and is reluctant to burn Edric.  On the show, it takes Robb's death for Stannis to be an eager believer who wants to burn Gendry.

Edited June 9, 2015 by benteen

[Advance35]

That's another thing that perplexed me and I'm not ready to burn D&D at the stake for it but it looks like the Martells are being set up to take over from The Tyrells in terms of propping up the Iron Throne.   And a marriage is on paper and by word of mouth, an alliacne.  I don't think the Martells would hire assassins on Cersei's say so, but The Martells upon marriage to Myrcella would be enemies to Sansa wouldn't they.   Though I don't think House Tyrell has any enimity towards her and they married House Lannister as well.

 

But why would House Martell or Aegon Targaryen want a Lannister Queen, they just got one out of the office and now they want to put her progeny on it?????   We haven't seen too much of Trystane, so there is no telling if he's as besotted with Myrcella as she seems to be of him.   But in the book it seemed like House Martell wanted no lasting ties to House Lannister, they sent a disfigured Myrcella back to Kings Landing without Trystane and some Sand Snakes to hold the line on the Small Council.

[elzin]

We can't blame GRRM for the burning of Shireen by Stannis. At least not until we read  a scene like that in the books. I'm sure these two would say GRRM told them Ramsey brutalizes his wife if that book hadn't come out, but they made it Sansa instead of Jeyne. They clearly either don't get characterization or don't care, and context matters. GRRM is not perfect, but blaming him was like TBWB blaming The Hound for Gregor's crimes.

[WearyTraveler]

I'm sorry! Please forgive me because this might sound incredibly pompous, but it's driving me up the wall because I keep seeing it in post after post.

The names are spelled as follows:

- Myrcella, not Marcella

- Kevan, not Kevin

- Trystane, not Trystin

- Oberyn, not Oberon

- Brienne, not Brie (she's not a piece of French cheese)

- Westeros, not Westerous

Thank you, and sorry, sorry, sorry!!! My head screams every time I see these spelled wrong.

Edited June 9, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[nksarmi]

Ok....  you are raising multiple issues at once so let me break them down a bit...

 

First, Cersei is not all of House Lannister and she won't even represent her house after the Walk.  In the books, Kevin takes over before he is killed and since his death was at the end, we don't know who will fill his shoes, but I'd doubt very much it will be a disgraced Cersei (I would think Jamie has been setup for that role in both the books and the show).  So again, Cersei has no power but her rage and pending madness.

 

Second, Marg and the Tyrells aligned with the crown not Cersei.  LF says that Marg is queen and she adores Sansa as one of the reasons why there is no real threat to Sansa from KL.  And I believe he is right.

 

Third, the queen making plot in the book is a way to destabilize the realm and create chaos so that Aegon can take the throne.  But on the show it would be far, far easier to put Trystane - Aegon - on the throne through a marriage to Marcella (who would be queen if Tommen should happen to die) - then send word across the narrow sea that a dragon sits in KL waiting for Dany to come.  Wouldn't it be interesting if Doran (and likely Varys as his co-conspirator) had so paved the way for Dany that war wasn't needed? That all she had to do was show up in queen's landing with her dragons, let Aegon reveal himself, and offer her his hand in marriage and unity? 

 

Do we think Doran would think anything of putting Aegon in a position where he would need to take two wives?  He's a Targ - they do things like that.  And if it plays out this way and Tyrion is at Dany's side, he will almost surely convince Marcella to do whatever she needs to do to survive (even if it means becoming one of two wives).  I'm not saying trouble won't come - and Marcella could still end up dying - but I do think there is a lot of potential here for some real interesting political manevouring that hasn't been on the show since Tywin convinced the Freys and Bolton to betray Robb Stark.

I'm sorry! Please forgive me because this might sound incredibly pompous, but it's driving me up the wall becaue I keep seeing it in post after post.

The names are spelled as follows:

- Myrcella, not Marcella
- Kevan, not Kevin
- Trystane, not Trystin
- Oberyn, not Oberon
- Brienne, not Brie (she's not a piece of French cheese)
- Westeros, not Westerous

Thank you, and sorry, sorry, sorry!!! My head screams every time I see these spelled wrong.

LOL I would normally be with you, but since I can never remember how GRRM spelled half these names, I abbreviate whenever I can get away with it and do my best on the others.  I don't make any promises for the future with the odd choices the author made for spelling.

[WearyTraveler]

All I can ask is that you try. :-D

[tennisgurl]

 

How do you botch a character as rich as Stannis?

Because Stannis is not one of D&D`s favorites, of course. D&D love Arya, Cersei, and especially Tryion, and will bend and twist anything and everything to make them come off better. Stannis, Jaimie, even the Tyrells (excepting Olenna)? Not favorites, so D&D can make them be as evil or as stupid as they want. They are even making Jaimie the one who hates his brother instead of Tyrion, so Tyrion can never ever look bad. Stannis is such a complicated character, and I`ve liked a lot of the show version of Stannis, but this ends the character for me. Too much pointless evil. Where can he go from here? Why did he do this? I say that Book Stannis wouldn't have done it. 

[benteen]

Because Stannis is not one of D&D`s favorites, of course. D&D love Arya, Cersei, and especially Tryion, and will bend and twist anything and everything to make them come off better. Stannis, Jaimie, even the Tyrells (excepting Olenna)? Not favorites, so D&D can make them be as evil or as stupid as they want. They are even making Jaimie the one who hates his brother instead of Tyrion, so Tyrion can never ever look bad. Stannis is such a complicated character, and I`ve liked a lot of the show version of Stannis, but this ends the character for me. Too much pointless evil. Where can he go from here? Why did he do this? I say that Book Stannis wouldn't have done it. 

 

They also bend over backwards to justify Tywin's evil actions.

[Winged Nike]

 

I say that Book Stannis wouldn't have done it.

 

I'm not sure I agree. In the books, Davos and Jon, two of the more decent characters in the story, took steps to remove children from Stannis' presence because they didn't trust what would happen. Edric was Stannis' nephew and Mance's son was a baby. That book Jon thought a baby wasn't even safe with Stannis, is a major warning sign to me, and I like Stannis as a character in the books.

 

I think Stannis is determined to be king and I think he could rationalize sacrificing Shireen like this in the books too.

[nksarmi]

Because Stannis is not one of D&D`s favorites, of course. D&D love Arya, Cersei, and especially Tryion, and will bend and twist anything and everything to make them come off better. Stannis, Jaimie, even the Tyrells (excepting Olenna)? Not favorites, so D&D can make them be as evil or as stupid as they want. They are even making Jaimie the one who hates his brother instead of Tyrion, so Tyrion can never ever look bad. Stannis is such a complicated character, and I`ve liked a lot of the show version of Stannis, but this ends the character for me. Too much pointless evil. Where can he go from here? Why did he do this? I say that Book Stannis wouldn't have done it. 

If they had added the bit about Tysha not being a whore and Jamie knew it, I wouldn't have cared if Tyrion hated Jamie.  However, not adding it spared us a great amount of dreary crap from Tyrion so I am not sorry to see it go.  Furthermore, I don't think Jamie really would hate Tyrion if he saw him again and they had it out with each other.  I think right now Jamie feels the way he does about Tyrion because it's causing issues between him and Cersei.  If the show ever does us the kindness of letting Jamie get over Cersei, I think Jamie would probably forgive Tyrion because he knows just how bad their father mistreated him.

They also bend over backwards to justify Tywin's evil actions.

I definitely don't agree with this - I think they showed Tywin as the ruthless, power-hungry asshole that he was.  Sure, he was capable of being good (in his own way) those who could carry on his legacy, but he never saw them as people or dare I say, loved them.  They were always a reflection of him.  If his child was born a dwarf, it reflected as his failure as a man. If his grandson was an out of control ruler, it reflected poorly on him.  Every single one of them, from Tyrion to Tommen were all reflections of Tywin.  He was the ultimate narcissist. 

 

And this is just my impression of him from the show - I can't remember what I thought of him from the books.  But I think there is no doubt he is evil and they don't even try to whitewash him like they do Cersei with how devoted a parent he is.

[DigitalCount]

Yeah, in the books I never really felt like Tywin was the central villain, in the show he was very much exactly that. The show did a much better job than the books of showing just how deep Tywin's complete control of the world really was.

 

Also, I saw an interesting point made somewhere, perhaps on this very board (?) that D&D's attitude toward Stannis may not have influenced their portrayal of him so much as the character influenced their attitude toward him. It's not as if George was spooning them bits of story over the course of years as we're receiving it; they probably knew going in or at least when plotting character arcs that Stannis would eventually burn his beloved daughter at the stake. They have always known that it would be a huge climactic moment of his character. I mean, let's be reasonable here. Why would they just arbitrarily dislike a character and decide to write him shallowly as punishment for the character existing?

[vibeology]

I'm not sure I agree. In the books, Davos and Jon, two of the more decent characters in the story, took steps to remove children from Stannis' presence because they didn't trust what would happen. Edric was Stannis' nephew and Mance's son was a baby. That book Jon thought a baby wasn't even safe with Stannis, is a major warning sign to me, and I like Stannis as a character in the books.

I think Stannis is determined to be king and I think he could rationalize sacrificing Shireen like this in the books too.

I do agree that Book Stannis could get there but I don't think he's there yet and I don't see Show Stannis there yet either. The show failed to make the situation seem dire enough. If the camp had been stuck in a storm, if his men were resorting to cannibalism, if Davos had been gone for weeks with no sign of return, then yes but as presented it wasn't enough. Shireen is his heir and the entire future of the Baratheon line since he knows about the twincest. Killing her after a day outside is just too far based on what we've seen from Stannis up to now.

[nksarmi]

I do agree that Book Stannis could get there but I don't think he's there yet and I don't see Show Stannis there yet either. The show failed to make the situation seem dire enough. If the camp had been stuck in a storm, if his men were resorting to cannibalism, if Davos had been gone for weeks with no sign of return, then yes but as presented it wasn't enough. Shireen is his heir and the entire future of the Baratheon line since he knows about the twincest. Killing her after a day outside is just too far based on what we've seen from Stannis up to now.

I actually agree that it wasn't bad enough - that is part of what makes it look so vile.  I mean, it would always be vile, but if the stakes were a hell of a lot higher and the situation was a hell of lot more dire, Stannis' decision would make more sense.

 

As is, he burned his daughter to win a battle with the Warden of the North. Who the hell is he going to burn when they get to KL?  Or along the way to deal with the Freys and the Vale and whoever else he faces?  Oh and who in the world do you burn when you fight the Army of the Dead? Or do you just plan to leave that to Jon?  I still say if Stannis is f-ing AA reborn, he should have no concern with the Iron Throne - his fight to save the realm from the Long Night should be at the damn WALL!  He should be sending ships to get dragon glass not burning Shireen to take Winterfell.

 

I would hope if Stannis does do this in the books, GRRM makes it make more sense.  It will never be forgivable to me, but I'd like it to make sense.

[Winnief]

Oh, the show always made Tywin a villain-it's just that he was such a 'compelling' villain.

 

ANd I'm the one who suggested at racefortheironthrone.com, that maybe D&D knowing Stannis was destined to kill his kid, colored their depiction of him and is why he seemed more unreasonably fanatical on the show.  If it seemed like they disliked him as a character sometimes then maybe it was because they *knew* what his story arc was. 

[AshleyN]

I do agree that Book Stannis could get there but I don't think he's there yet and I don't see Show Stannis there yet either. The show failed to make the situation seem dire enough. If the camp had been stuck in a storm, if his men were resorting to cannibalism, if Davos had been gone for weeks with no sign of return, then yes but as presented it wasn't enough. Shireen is his heir and the entire future of the Baratheon line since he knows about the twincest. Killing her after a day outside is just too far based on what we've seen from Stannis up to now.

Yeah, after reflecting on this whole thing I really think this is my biggest issue with how they handled this storyline. Like you said, I could buy that Stannis would get there eventually (though it would still be awful obviously), but they really needed to do more to earn that moment. The way it went down here, with him giving in at the first sign of adversity is more evidence that Show Stannis is little more than a weak-willed puppet who'll do anything Melisandre tells him to. Which is why I agree with those who say the showrunners don't really "get" the character - because if there's anything that Book Stannis is not, it's weak-willed. I believe someone mentioned it elsewhere, but at this point in the books Stannis has more evidence pointing toward the Lord of Light's power, and is in much more dire circumstances, yet is still more resistant to letting his men sacrifice some random dudes, let alone his own daughter. It should have taken a hell of a lot more to get him to the point where he'd even consider making that sacrifice.

 

ANd I'm the one who suggested at racefortheironthrone.com, that maybe D&D knowing Stannis was destined to kill his kid, colored their depiction of him and is why he seemed more unreasonably fanatical on the show.  If it seemed like they disliked him as a character sometimes then maybe it was because they *knew* what his story arc was. 

If that's the case then I think it was a poor storytelling decision on their part. I think there would have been a lot more power in a story about a man known primarily for being rigid and inflexible in his moral code sacrificing more and more of himself as he chases the throne and/or attempts to fulfill what he thinks is his destiny, before finally committing the ultimate crime, than there is in making him so easily manipulated from the start.

[SeanC]

I definitely don't agree with this - I think they showed Tywin as the ruthless, power-hungry asshole that he was.  Sure, he was capable of being good (in his own way) those who could carry on his legacy, but he never saw them as people or dare I say, loved them.  They were always a reflection of him.  If his child was born a dwarf, it reflected as his failure as a man. If his grandson was an out of control ruler, it reflected poorly on him.  Every single one of them, from Tyrion to Tommen were all reflections of Tywin.  He was the ultimate narcissist. 

 

And this is just my impression of him from the show - I can't remember what I thought of him from the books.  But I think there is no doubt he is evil and they don't even try to whitewash him like they do Cersei with how devoted a parent he is.

The writers themselves stated that they didn't consider Tywin a villain, because they didn't consider him malicious and that you needed to be brutal to run Westeros (basically, he made the trains run on time).

 

The show did a much better job than the books of showing just how deep Tywin's complete control of the world really was.

 

Also, I saw an interesting point made somewhere, perhaps on this very board (?) that D&D's attitude toward Stannis may not have influenced their portrayal of him so much as the character influenced their attitude toward him. It's not as if George was spooning them bits of story over the course of years as we're receiving it; they probably knew going in or at least when plotting character arcs that Stannis would eventually burn his beloved daughter at the stake. They have always known that it would be a huge climactic moment of his character. I mean, let's be reasonable here. Why would they just arbitrarily dislike a character and decide to write him shallowly as punishment for the character existing?

I wouldn't call that "a much better job", per se.  GRRM's Tywin is not in complete control of the world.  He's impressive, no doubt, but he ultimately wins the war because of two things that had nothing to do with him (Mel assassinating Renly and Littlefinger keeping the Vale out of the war).  Had either of those things gone against him, he was toast.  The TV show at times plays it like Tywin was always going to win purely because he's so ruthless (even though his ultimate victory in the show is also because of things that had nothing to do with him).

 

As is, he burned his daughter to win a battle with the Warden of the North. Who the hell is he going to burn when they get to KL?  Or along the way to deal with the Freys and the Vale and whoever else he faces?  Oh and who in the world do you burn when you fight the Army of the Dead? Or do you just plan to leave that to Jon?  I still say if Stannis is f-ing AA reborn, he should have no concern with the Iron Throne - his fight to save the realm from the Long Night should be at the damn WALL!  He should be sending ships to get dragon glass not burning Shireen to take Winterfell.

That problem, for me, applies doubly to Mel.  This is literally the biggest sacrifice she could urge Stannis to make; why is she so eager to have him do it before the White Walkers even show up?

[ElizaD]

Tywin ordered rapes, massacres and the murders of children, yet the showrunners said he was neither evil nor a sadist. I believe that the showrunners dislike Stannis, but it's more likely because they find him uninteresting and possibly because of his association with religion, which hasn't been portrayed positively on the show. Tywin is responsible for an endless list of atrocities, yet he gets the spin that he's a tough man who's the kind of ruler this tough world needs - he's nasty to Tyrion, which is bad, but he's also super competent, which is badass. IIRC, the showrunners also said Tywin is a villain if you look at things from the Stark POV, but if they think you need to be a Stark fan to find villainy and sadism in Tysha's rape, the murders of Elia and her children, and the unleashing of Gregor on the population of the Riverlands, it doesn't make me have a lot of faith in their assessment of the morality of characters.

 

Unless there's some sort of Dorne reveal in 5x10, that plot will have been the weirdest in season 5. When they cast three Sand Snakes, I thought it must be because they're important in TWOW. But if Trystane is the only one who goes to KL and there's no plan to support either Dany or Trystane/Myrcella, Dorne is basically Qarth/Astapor: a disposable one-season location that adds one supporting character to a bigger plot (Missandei/Trystane).

 

To be more positive for a moment, I think Thorne has probably been the most consistently and believably improved character on the show. I don't know if he'll be part of the stabbing in 5x10, but he has been more complex than in the books: Show Thorne is an antagonist and sometimes an asshole but also a man who knows his job.

Edited June 9, 2015 by ElizaD

[benteen]

I think a lot of people here explained the problem with Stannis burning his daughter here a lot better than me.  I think in the books, Stannis would have ended up burning Edric.  Would I put it past him to do it to his own daughter if that's what was needed to win everything?  No.  But as pointed out, I don't think the situation was that dire compared to what it was in the books and again, as pointed out sacrificing Shireen to get to the gates of Winterfell (with a reduced fighting force and food stores no less) is such an incredibly short-term gain.  Especially if you have to take this war to King's Landing ESPECIALLY if the White Walkers are the ultimate threat.

 

As for Tywin, my issue with D&D is their statement that they didn't think Tywin was an evil man and used his "killing a dozen people as a dinner party" as an excuse for ending a bloody war.  Tywin is a guy who responds to things by committing atriocities, unleashing a murderous monster on the Riverlands in the form of Gregor Clegane to kill and rape.  He broke a long-standing tradition in Westeros with the Red Wedding and he didn't do that for the good of the Realm.  He did it for his family's dynasty.  His ruthlessness might have ensured a short-term peace but his brutality ensured and his treatment of his own family sealed his fate and the fate of his House.  He made things worse, not better.

[nksarmi]

I find it interesting that the show runners say Tywin isn't a villain when feel like they showed so well that he was one.  Interesting.