Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[The Mormegil]

I'm not so sure about that - the Wall was built using magic but that could be a matter of constructing the Wall, not how it functions.  It is also clearly possible for a wight to pass because one did.  

 

The only Wights we've seen south of the Wall are the two that were brought through as dead bodies and reanimated later that day. We haven't seen a Wight get through the Wall while animated and in fact have a case where one refuses to go through the Wall.

 

Coldhands won't or can't pass through the Wall so he has to send Sam and Gilly in his place. We also know Coldhands can't pass into the Children of the Forests cave. Same magic in both cases?

 

My guess is that the Wall breaks whatever spell is reanimating the Wights. So while it's possible for the Others to animate a dead body (one they prepared earlier) once it has been carried south of the Wall sending a Wight walking through/climbing over the Wall will just result in the Wight dropping dead half way across.

 

 

And if the magic stops Wights I would think it stops Others too.

 

 

 

Plus we've had all the talk of the magic Horn that once blown will bring down the Wall, someone (Sam?) has to end up blowing that.

Edited June 5, 2015 by The Mormegil

[benteen]

Tywin wasn't a good military commander.  He did great when he had an overwhelming army and could bully a smaller opponent.  But his forces lost every battle to Robb and even Edmure Freaking Tully handed Tywin his ass in A Clash of Kings.  Tywin's strength is his political scheming.  Maybe he could have use that to unite different parties against the White Walkers.

[Umbelina]

This may sound very stupid, and I'm pretty wiped out after a long day, so sorry, but here goes.

 

Are we positive the long winters bring the white walkers and not visa versa?  Maybe "winter comes" BECAUSE they wake up, since where ever they do go freezes, they seem to bring the cold.

 

I can't weigh in on the wall magic stuff, because I've always assumed the White Walkers would be able to cross the wall itself, if not, why bother manning it?  Just to keep wildlings out?  Why not simply form trading and treaty bargains with them?  Or treat them they way they treat Iron Island people? 

[InsertWordHere]

Are we positive the long winters bring the white walkers and not visa versa?  Maybe "winter comes" BECAUSE they wake up, since where ever they do go freezes, they seem to bring the cold.

According to the wiki, it's said that the Long Night occurred during a great winter that lasted for years. In the midst of this darkness a race of apparent demons, called the Others, emerged from the uttermost north of Westeros. I don't know if this great winter was the first of its kind or if they had other long winters before, but this one was the longest.

[Hecate7]

Then again, maybe the show will use Varys to reveal this fact.  Varys was already in KL working his way up when R+L would have happened.  And he is the master of whispers - I can totally see him having heard the tale.  Perhaps he is waiting until he talks to Dany face to face to tell her that her father had two wives and she has a nephew out there that could help complete her reign.  Hell, if Tyrion is a product of J and A - he probably knows that as well.

 

And by the way, as much as we've talked about the whitewashing of Tyrion - wouldn't the ultimate whitewashing be making him the bastard son of J and A?  That would remove the "no one is as cursed as a kinslayer" burden from his shoulders and practically exonerate him completely of his murder of Tywin (his life-long oppressor who hated him and saw him as a symbol of his own failure and who would have loved to disown him if he could).

 

It doesn't completely exonerate either one of them. For one thing, Tyrion is twins, and at least one of those twins IS Tywin's son. But I'm not sure how Tyrion would know anything of the kind. He wasn't there, and his father certainly didn't mention it to him.

[Holmbo]

I feel like it's Chekhov's wall. You don't have a giant wall in a story unless it falls in the third act.

I really hope that the white walkers somehow get really far into Westeros so that they affect all of the characters. If they're just held off at the wall it's not as impactfull.

[FemmyV]

I don't know, I mean ... let's say the Wall really is impregnable by White Walkers et al. In spite of that, you don't want them camping out for the next 3-7 years.

 

 

The Sack of Kings Landing. Stays out of the war then decides to sack the poorly defended capital and orders the murder of the royal family. Sorry his lie about Elia is just that a lie. She was part of the hit list. He just doesn't want to admit how much of a political disaster that was for his family.

 

If Robert had been a better husband to Cersei, Tywin would have kept his closeness to the throne an advantage for far more than 15 or so years they have had.

[Oscirus]

Why? Tywin won. Robb may have defeated him in every battle, but Tywin was ultimately the one left standing in the end (for a while, at least). If I was living in Westeros, I'd prefer somebody who ultimately prevents the Eternal Night than somebody who wins a few battles but can't prevent the Zombie Apocalypse.

 

Unless the White Walkers started adapting regular social norms where Tywin could surprise them by breaking said norms, Tywin wasn't stopping shit. I'd prefer Roose to continue being Roose 1.0 if he's going to fight the zombies. For all this talk about all these other master players, the only time in five seasons that Roose didn't get what he wanted was when he was forced to let Brienne go and even that was just a mere inconvenience.

 

To address the Varys portion of the conversation in this thread, we don't know what Varys knows since he has never had any reason to share such knowledge about Jon Snow. His telling anybody about Snow would just come off as pointless exposition.  Little finger doesn't know because if it doesn't affect his raise in social status, he really doesn't care at this point.

 

If Robert had been a better husband to Cersei, Tywin would have kept his closeness to the throne an advantage for far more than 15 or so years they have had

 

 

Being that Tywin financed the crown once Cersei became queen,  I doubt he gave a damn how she was treated.

[nksarmi]

It doesn't completely exonerate either one of them. For one thing, Tyrion is twins, and at least one of those twins IS Tywin's son. But I'm not sure how Tyrion would know anything of the kind. He wasn't there, and his father certainly didn't mention it to him.

I've seen this discussed about Tyrion, but I can't recall if it's stated in the books - is it?

 

At any rate, I always thought the no one is as cursed as a kinslayer thing was weird.  I wasn't sure if it was meant to be a mental burden or an actually cursed life.  The first I can understand, but the second is kind of messed up.  I mean really, if a father molests his daughter and she rises up and kills him, she's cursed? If a man beats the shit out of his son and his finally gets strong enough to fight back and kills him, he's cursed?  Of course, by these standards - after Renley - Stannis should be doomed, but there has been no mention of it as opposed to the reference when Robb had to kill the Kastark who would only be a distant cousin.  I mean really, how far does this we're related, you can't kill me clause stretch? I always thought GRRM's world had some f-ed up morality, but this might be the worst of them all.

[Constantinople]

To address the Varys portion of the conversation in this thread, we don't know what Varys knows since he has never had any reason to share such knowledge about Jon Snow. His telling anybody about Snow would just come off as pointless exposition.  Little finger doesn't know because if it doesn't affect his raise in social status, he really doesn't care at this point.

From The Wolf and The Lion, Season 1, Episode 5

 

Ned: What do you know of King Robert's bastards?

Littlefinger: Well, he has more than you, for a start.

 

That's an odd way to phrase things if TVLittlefinger believes Ned has no bastards.  Therefore, it appears that TVLittlefinger knows that Jon Snow is Ned's bastard son.  I don't recall if BookLittlefinger knows.

 

I don't recall if Varys has ever indicated whether he knows about Jon Snow.  I agree it would have been pointless exposition.  That said, I'd be surprised if Varys doesn't know about Jon Snow.  Varys knew about the attempt to assassinate Bran and the dagger. If his sources are that good in the North, I suspect Varys knew that that Ned Stark's bastard son was living with him at Winterfell.

[nksarmi]

From The Wolf and The Lion, Season 1, Episode 5

 

 

That's an odd way to phrase things if TVLittlefinger believes Ned has no bastards.  Therefore, it appears that TVLittlefinger knows that Jon Snow is Ned's bastard son.  I don't recall if BookLittlefinger knows.

 

I don't recall if Varys has ever indicated whether he knows about Jon Snow.  I agree it would have been pointless exposition.  That said, I'd be surprised if Varys doesn't know about Jon Snow.  Varys knew about the attempt to assassinate Bran and the dagger. If his sources are that good in the North, I suspect Varys knew that that Ned Stark's bastard son was living with him at Winterfell.

I don't think the debate is rather or not people know about Jon Snow - I actually think that's common knowledge and Ned did nothing to hide the fact that he had a bastard son.  I think the question is does LF or Varys know the secret of who Jon's mother is or if speculation is correct that Jon is actually Ned's nephew, not his bastard.

[MadMouse]

I don't think the debate is rather or not people know about Jon Snow - I actually think that's common knowledge and Ned did nothing to hide the fact that he had a bastard son.  I think the question is does LF or Varys know the secret of who Jon's mother is or if speculation is correct that Jon is actually Ned's nephew, not his bastard.

 

Book wise neither knows. People who could legitimately know about Jon's parentage are Howland Reed, Benjen and Wylla the wet-nurse. If Ashara Dayne is alive she would be a likely candidate too.

 

If Robert had been a better husband to Cersei, Tywin would have kept his closeness to the throne an advantage for far more than 15 or so years they have had.

 

And if Cersei hadn't been a narcissistic psychopath she might not have kept sleeping with her twin and having bastards.

[WearyTraveler]

Plus we've had all the talk of the magic Horn that once blown will bring down the Wall, someone (Sam?) has to end up blowing that.

 

The horn Jon found with the dragon glass that he gave to Sam.  In the books, there are several mentions of that horn and I believe Sam still has it.  I also think this could be the magic horn and that someone could blow it by accident. 

 

I do think the Wall might come down, or be breached, but I don't think the Walkers will make it past the neck.  

Edited June 5, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[ElizaD]

I can't remember the book (AGOT? ACOK?), but doesn't Dany have a vision that has inspired speculation she'll be fighting Others on the Trident? That won't be an undeniable zombie apocalypse, but I guess the Trident would be southern enough to make it at least a little more difficult for people to claim that they just had a tough winter, what's this nonsense about [insert POV name] saving us from the White Walkers.

 

If Littlefinger had guessed the truth about Jon, I think he absolutely would have made use of it to cause chaos. Varys was so focused on the Aegon plan (and he's no all-seeing supervillain with magic powers) that it's perfectly believable to me that he would miss something and be as shocked by Jon as he was by Dany actually hatching the eggs. The best way to keep a secret is to tell no one and to act like there's nothing to hide. That way Jon becomes just another bastard, a little unusual only because of Ned's reputation. I bet a lot of people in Westeros would feel such smug glee at the thought of Ned Stark having a bastard (he's no better than the rest of us!) that they wouldn't think about the possibility that Ned was lying.

 

Was anybody else thinking of Ned executing that poor deserter when they were all running away in terror in the last scenes? Oh, Ned, you were so short-sighted, naive and self-righteous. 

 

Whether Ned is being compassionate or tough, it seems the fandom always wants him to do the other thing. Ned is more widely and unforgivingly criticized for self-righteousness and for possibly being willing to execute Theon than Jaime is for actually crippling a child and not giving a damn. I've seen Ned get more hate for executing the deserter at the very beginning of the series (when there had been no sign of the Others for thousands of years, but somehow Ned should have known that this time the raving deserter really meant it and wasn't trying to save his own skin when he was caught far away from the Wall, which is maybe where he ought to have gone to warn people) than Tywin and Cersei get for their attitude towards the Night's Watch in ASOS+ (yay Slynt promotion/Jon assassination plan, totally the kinds of moves that will help humanity against the Others and demonstrate respect for the warnings they've gotten). Ned doesn't get credit for what he did do well: in the North he ruled so that he was both feared and loved and even Roose didn't want to challenge him. Tywin didn't really demonstrate more of a long-term perspective than Ned: he chose to prioritize atrocities and personal fame as the big bad Lannister no one dares to laugh at and let his kids become such screwups that they turn on each other and reject his plans for them.

 

Tywin was good at stabbing people in the back by ignoring his society's biggest taboos and ideas about honor and compassion, but Ned and Robb would not have been able to participate in toppling a dynasty and kick ass on the battlefield if they didn't have their own kind of intelligence and competence. Their particular skills would have been more likely to be useful against the Others than Tywin's, since the Night's King doesn't seem like the type to be intimidated by atrocities or to agree to negotiate so he can be killed when he's unarmed.

[blixie]

 

I agree it would have been pointless exposition.  That said, I'd be surprised if Varys doesn't know about Jon Snow.

 

This, I'm not asking for pointless exposition, I'm just curious if he we're supposed to think he knows, and in MY head canon the version of Varys both in the books and on the show WOULD know, or at least suspect the real parentage of Jon Snow. Life IF/WHEN (and certainly maybe it never happens) Jon is revealed as AA and Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, is Varys going to have his head explode from the revelation or is he just gonna have it explode because it ruined all his secrety secret plans for his hand picked and educated ruler of the Realm.

[mac123x]

I feel like it's Chekhov's wall. You don't have a giant wall in a story unless it falls in the third act.

I really hope that the white walkers somehow get really far into Westeros so that they affect all of the characters. If they're just held off at the wall it's not as impactfull.

 

The books have also set up Chekhov's Horn.  It's entirely possible that the horn that Mel burned wasn't the real Horn of Jorumun, and that it's actually in posession of the White Walkers.  It might even be why they're attacking now; they recently found it.

 

Arguing against that is the Show has done nothing with magical horns.  If it's crucial to the plot, it'd come across as a total ass-pull for the Unsullied.

 

Another possibility is that while the wall does have some magical properties, the entire thing isn't zombie-proofed.  Maybe Coldhands couldn't come through the wall because that secret passage has an anti-wight spell on it (similar to the Children's cave), but the rest of the wall is wight-permeable.

[Pogojoco]

I don't think Ned executing the deserter proves he was short sighted or self-righteous. It was his job to execute the deserters, and that's what he did. He's probably heard all sorts of reasons for deserting in his time. And he tells Bran the man was mad and there haven't been White Walkers in a thousand years. 

 

Wights can make it past the Wall- the one that attacked Jeor Mormont, that Jon saved him from, was in the Lord Commander's quarters at Castle Black. South of the Wall. I think Coldhands being unable to get through might just mean he isn't a wight. 

[cambridgeguy]

 

Arguing against that is the Show has done nothing with magical horns.  If it's crucial to the plot, it'd come across as a total ass-pull for the Unsullied.

I'd argue that the Walkers won't reach the wall until season 6 and any sort of exposition about a horn can be done via Bran when he comes back.  Presumably whatever he learns from the children of the forest or Bloodraven can be taken as true while information from a book in Westeros is dubious given the time that has passed.

[benteen]

I would think Littlefinger and Varys would have both looked into who the mother of Ned's bastard was.  Littlefinger because of the Cat connection and Varys would want to know what went on at the Tower of Joy.

 

One thing I forgot to mention earlier, I've gotten a kick out of how much attention the Night's King has gotten.  A LOT of articles on him following Hardhome and it's cool to see.  I wonder if he is supposed to be revealed as the leader of the White Walkers in the next books or if it was just something D&D took from the books and made their own.  Either way, bringing him into the show briefly last season and now in Hardhome was a smart move.

[Dev F]

I'd argue that the Walkers won't reach the wall until season 6 and any sort of exposition about a horn can be done via Bran when he comes back.

 

Also, the show did make a point of showing that there was an old warhorn inside the cache of dragonglass.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Dev F

[Hecate7]

I would think Littlefinger and Varys would have both looked into who the mother of Ned's bastard was.  Littlefinger because of the Cat connection and Varys would want to know what went on at the Tower of Joy.

 

One thing I forgot to mention earlier, I've gotten a kick out of how much attention the Night's King has gotten.  A LOT of articles on him following Hardhome and it's cool to see.  I wonder if he is supposed to be revealed as the leader of the White Walkers in the next books or if it was just something D&D took from the books and made their own.  Either way, bringing him into the show briefly last season and now in Hardhome was a smart move.

 

Good point, but they probably wouldn't have gotten the truth, even with their methods. Littlefinger wouldn't have heard any rumors of Ned knocking up any girls, but when suddenly Ned had a bastard, I don't think Littlefinger could have been objective enough to wonder whether it was true. He'd have tracked down Wylla and gotten the official story, and perhaps done a little checking into Ashara Dayne. But Ned's way of covering it up insured that nobody at the time would be able to prove anything.

[magdalene]

I can't remember the book (AGOT? ACOK?), but doesn't Dany have a vision that has inspired speculation she'll be fighting Others on the Trident? That won't be an undeniable zombie apocalypse, but I guess the Trident would be southern enough to make it at least a little more difficult for people to claim that they just had a tough winter, what's this nonsense about [insert POV name] saving us from the White Walkers.

 

If Littlefinger had guessed the truth about Jon, I think he absolutely would have made use of it to cause chaos. Varys was so focused on the Aegon plan (and he's no all-seeing supervillain with magic powers) that it's perfectly believable to me that he would miss something and be as shocked by Jon as he was by Dany actually hatching the eggs. The best way to keep a secret is to tell no one and to act like there's nothing to hide. That way Jon becomes just another bastard, a little unusual only because of Ned's reputation. I bet a lot of people in Westeros would feel such smug glee at the thought of Ned Stark having a bastard (he's no better than the rest of us!) that they wouldn't think about the possibility that Ned was lying.

 

 

Whether Ned is being compassionate or tough, it seems the fandom always wants him to do the other thing. Ned is more widely and unforgivingly criticized for self-righteousness and for possibly being willing to execute Theon than Jaime is for actually crippling a child and not giving a damn. I've seen Ned get more hate for executing the deserter at the very beginning of the series (when there had been no sign of the Others for thousands of years, but somehow Ned should have known that this time the raving deserter really meant it and wasn't trying to save his own skin when he was caught far away from the Wall, which is maybe where he ought to have gone to warn people) than Tywin and Cersei get for their attitude towards the Night's Watch in ASOS+ (yay Slynt promotion/Jon assassination plan, totally the kinds of moves that will help humanity against the Others and demonstrate respect for the warnings they've gotten). Ned doesn't get credit for what he did do well: in the North he ruled so that he was both feared and loved and even Roose didn't want to challenge him. Tywin didn't really demonstrate more of a long-term perspective than Ned: he chose to prioritize atrocities and personal fame as the big bad Lannister no one dares to laugh at and let his kids become such screwups that they turn on each other and reject his plans for them.

 

Tywin was good at stabbing people in the back by ignoring his society's biggest taboos and ideas about honor and compassion, but Ned and Robb would not have been able to participate in toppling a dynasty and kick ass on the battlefield if they didn't have their own kind of intelligence and competence. Their particular skills would have been more likely to be useful against the Others than Tywin's, since the Night's King doesn't seem like the type to be intimidated by atrocities or to agree to negotiate so he can be killed when he's unarmed.

I think it's fun to look at Ned's flaws and point them out because he was such a goody-two-shoes. Nobody thinks Jaime is a shining example of moral rectitude so nobody is expecting him to do the right thing.

[WearyTraveler]

I can't remember the book (AGOT? ACOK?), but doesn't Dany have a vision that has inspired speculation she'll be fighting Others on the Trident? That won't be an undeniable zombie apocalypse, but I guess the Trident would be southern enough to make it at least a little more difficult for people to claim that they just had a tough winter, what's this nonsense about [insert POV name] saving us from the White Walkers.

 

If Littlefinger had guessed the truth about Jon, I think he absolutely would have made use of it to cause chaos. Varys was so focused on the Aegon plan (and he's no all-seeing supervillain with magic powers) that it's perfectly believable to me that he would miss something and be as shocked by Jon as he was by Dany actually hatching the eggs. The best way to keep a secret is to tell no one and to act like there's nothing to hide. That way Jon becomes just another bastard, a little unusual only because of Ned's reputation. I bet a lot of people in Westeros would feel such smug glee at the thought of Ned Stark having a bastard (he's no better than the rest of us!) that they wouldn't think about the possibility that Ned was lying.

 

 

Whether Ned is being compassionate or tough, it seems the fandom always wants him to do the other thing. Ned is more widely and unforgivingly criticized for self-righteousness and for possibly being willing to execute Theon than Jaime is for actually crippling a child and not giving a damn. I've seen Ned get more hate for executing the deserter at the very beginning of the series (when there had been no sign of the Others for thousands of years, but somehow Ned should have known that this time the raving deserter really meant it and wasn't trying to save his own skin when he was caught far away from the Wall, which is maybe where he ought to have gone to warn people) than Tywin and Cersei get for their attitude towards the Night's Watch in ASOS+ (yay Slynt promotion/Jon assassination plan, totally the kinds of moves that will help humanity against the Others and demonstrate respect for the warnings they've gotten). Ned doesn't get credit for what he did do well: in the North he ruled so that he was both feared and loved and even Roose didn't want to challenge him. Tywin didn't really demonstrate more of a long-term perspective than Ned: he chose to prioritize atrocities and personal fame as the big bad Lannister no one dares to laugh at and let his kids become such screwups that they turn on each other and reject his plans for them.

 

Tywin was good at stabbing people in the back by ignoring his society's biggest taboos and ideas about honor and compassion, but Ned and Robb would not have been able to participate in toppling a dynasty and kick ass on the battlefield if they didn't have their own kind of intelligence and competence. Their particular skills would have been more likely to be useful against the Others than Tywin's, since the Night's King doesn't seem like the type to be intimidated by atrocities or to agree to negotiate so he can be killed when he's unarmed.

 

I came to ask you for this post's hand in marriage, I'll be honored if you concede it.

[Amtosbm]

I brought this over from the episde thread because most of the questions were answered but I kind of wanted to continue the discussion.

 

I do wonder a lot about The Queen. It is hinted in the books that the marriage was unhappy. What if Dany isn't his child? She is only a half Targaryan? One reason to burn a man would be jealousy. What do we know about Ned' s brother?

 

 

 

Wasn't there a brief throwaway story in AFFC  about a knight who had a thing for Rhaella (it seemed implied that the feelings were returned)? But he wasn't of sufficient status (and, you know, not her brother). So he turned to religion and I want to say was the one left in charge of Harrenhall after Jaime left?

I am just not up for a reread of the books but wasn't Rhaella originally going to marry someone else? Her father made her marry her brother because supposedly he believed a prophecy that the PTWP was to come from his family line? I guess he was right but I always felt sorry for her. It sounds like Aerys treated her much the same way Ramsay treats Sansa - rapes and physical and mental abuse.  I think Dany was conceived in a rape that Jamie heard?  Wasn't there also a huge gap betweent he time Rhaeger was born to Viserys? What was going on then? 

 

I just have so many questions I don't think George is ever going answer. My biggest one is whose child did Ashara have - Ned or Brandon?  I wish the show had mentioned more of these interesting characters rather than waste time on watching the Night Watch terrorize Crasters Keep for example.

[InsertWordHere]

Wasn't there also a huge gap betweent he time Rhaeger was born to Viserys? What was going on then? 

As many as eight miscarriages, stillbirths, and children who died in infancy. Aerys became suspicious of Rhaella, believing bastardry to be the reason the babes didn't survive, and made two septas sleep in her bed every night. 

[FurryFury]

Just chiming in to say I was almost ready to give up on the show (which I still consider a fanfic to the real ASOIAF) but the only news that made me pause was Dany/Tyrion meeting which is something I've been craving ever since ASOS. So glad to see them at least in this version (and really, this version may turn out to be better because I love Dinklage and Show Tyrion is so much better than the book version). So nice for the show to do at least something right after the Sansa debacle.

 

And of course, it does seem like GRRM has stopped cared about the Others and the looming invasion some years ago so seeing them so present was pretty great.

 

But I still feel like the show should have just dropped Arya in Braavos because it just doesn't work as late in the story. Although the actor playing Jaquen H'gar almost saves the storyline, he's so magnetic.

 

I am just not up for a reread of the books but wasn't Rhaella originally going to marry someone else? Her father made her marry her brother because supposedly he believed a prophecy that the PTWP was to come from his family line?

 

It's been a while for me but I don't remember it. I kinda thought Rhaegar was the only one to really care about the prophecy.

 

I wish the show had mentioned more of these interesting characters rather than waste time on watching the Night Watch terrorize Crasters Keep for example.

 

You and me both.

[The Mormegil]

 

I am just not up for a reread of the books but wasn't Rhaella originally going to marry someone else? Her father made her marry her brother because supposedly he believed a prophecy that the PTWP was to come from his family line?

 

It's been a while for me but I don't remember it. I kinda thought Rhaegar was the only one to really care about the prophecy.

 

 

The prophecy was made by a Woods Witch (who most likely is the Ghost of High Heart (a Dwarf/Possible Child of the Forest) that Arya meets).

 

After hearing the prophecy Jaehaerys II (still just the Heir at the time) commanded that his son and daughter be married.

 

While Rhaella had been in love with Bonifer Hasty she was never bethrothed to him as he was considered to be of too low a birth.

Edited June 6, 2015 by The Mormegil

[Elkins]

Was anybody else thinking of Ned executing that poor deserter when they were all running away in terror in the last scenes? Oh, Ned, you were so short-sighted, naive and self-righteous. 

 

Are you suggesting that Jon and the wildlings are now going to take those boats all the way south to Dorne, leaving the people at the Wall to their fates and giving no one else any warning of what they saw? Because that would be the equivalent of what the deserter did.

 

The deserter wasn't killed because he ran in fear from the monsters in the woods. He was killed because instead of running back to the Wall and reporting on what he'd seen, he decided that everyone else in the world could go hang. He didn't even have the courtesy of warning anyone of what might be coming for them until he got caught. On the contrary, he went out of his way not to warn anyone!

 

In order to get south of the Wall, he had to make a deliberate decision to find some passage south -- either by taking a boat or by sneaking through one of the deserted castles -- that avoided contact with anyone else from the Watch, thus also avoiding giving any of them fair warning of what might be coming for them. All the people he'd been living with and eating with and sleeping with for who knows how long at the Wall? Screw 'em.

 

Then, in order to reach Winterfell, he had to have continued to avoid contact with people for more days on end. He wasn't passing through villages on his way south like some sort of Westerosi Paul Revere, ringing a bell and warning people that the monsters are coming, the monsters are coming. By the time he reached Winterfell, many days south of the wall, how many villages full of old people and women and children must he have passed? Screw all of them, too. He was effectively throwing all of those people off of the sled to slow down the wolves.

 

I empathize with cowardice myself, and I'm not keen on capital punishment. But it's silly to claim that the deserter was killed just because he was scared. His behavior went well beyond "runs in panic from monsters" and edged right into the realms of "that guy in the zombie movie who deliberately hides evidence of the impending apocalypse from others in order to up his personal chances of survival."  (To be honest, I often do find myself in an uncomfortable sympathy with that guy in the apocalypse movie. But I still recognize that he's doing something unconscionably selfish.)

 

Sorry to go on at such great length. This has just become a bit of a pet peeve of mine.

[Umbelina]

Everyone handles panic in different ways though, especially life threatening horror.  Some shut down.  Some run as fast as they can away from it.  Some get oddly calm and deliberate.  Some decide it's their time to shine and run to tell everyone.  Some have the whole "time slows down" and every move becomes perfectly clear (and those are the ones soldiers try to be near in battle.)  Some break, especially after seeing something like that, perhaps doubting their sanity.  Some, the true heroes, will might be scared to death, but still do the bravest thing, risking their lives to warn or save others.  Just imagine seeing that! 

 

What would that do to you? 

 

The honest answer is that everyone will have a different response to that question, and what's more, the reality of your probable response might be quite different than what you would actually do.

 

Ned's "code" put his entire family in danger, not to mention the people who lived in his lands, and he was responsible for them as well.  He simply refused to adapt, even if it was best for those under his protection, refused to listen when warned, until it was too late.  The capitol people ran rings around him because he took simpleton ideas and behavior into a sophisticated and cunning world.  It was stupid, like Ned going out to hunt vicious big game  in an unknown area taking nothing but a toy slingshot, and puppies, with no food or provisions for any of them.  You don't go into strange areas without preparation and the ability to adapt to the circumstances you find.  Ned did.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Umbelina

[Oscirus]

The beheading was actually one of the few times that Ned wasn't acting stupid. I can sympathize with the guy who was scared, but if Ned doesn't enforce his laws then why the hell would the rest of the nights watch not also desert. Most of them aren't exactly up there because they want to be.

 

As for his white walker rambling, people tend to do that when they're about to die, without the benefit of the knowledge that we had,  why shouldn't Ned think that the runner was bullshitting just to save his neck?

Edited June 6, 2015 by Oscirus

[Umbelina]

Yet, had Ned MADE SURE, questioned him further, consulted historians, or even gone and prayed in his God's wood, he may have discovered that perhaps the man was telling the truth.  Hell, if he had even thoroughly questioned the guy in some place less stressful than the chopping block, his entire arc could have been different, his journey to the south actually accomplishing something.  OR, he could have taken the man back to the wall to tell his story, and questioned people there, including the septon, talked about further scouting parties.

 

He had many options.  He took the simplistic one because Ned is a simpleton.

[WearyTraveler]

If R+L=J,  way to go, simpleton! You pulled one over every one of those sophisticated schemers, right under their noses too!

Edited June 6, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[Constantinople]

Will already told Ned he saw the White Walkers.  What else is there to say?

 

Moreover, how could Ned determine if Will was telling the truth or not?  If a modern day deserter starting talking about Grendel, discussing it with historians or attending church won't provide much clarity in the matter.  Benjen, the First Ranger of the Night's Watch, didn't seem convinced, and certainly didn't object to the man's execution when he and Ned talked about it.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Constantinople

[Elkins]

Everyone handles panic in different ways though, especially life threatening horror. 

 

Panic is an immediate response. It doesn't last for days on end. It actually physically can't -- the human body cannot sustain that state for very long. Eventually, no matter how panicked you may be, it doesn't matter, you will crash. We're not talking about panic here. Sustained exposure to life-threatening horror can cause PTSD, which is maybe what you mean? But that's a different thing.

 

I really do think that the immediate cut from "monsters in the woods" to "guy is now running from soldiers close to Winterfell" wound up giving the wrong impression. It made it look like the young man fled the monsters and then was still running in the same panic when he got caught near Winterfell. That isn't how it could possibly have gone. There are days of travel in between, and obstacles like the Wall that would have required deliberate planning to negotiate.

[Funzlerks]

Ned Stark was about the only reason the Night's Watch was even still existing. The deserter should have been executed even if Ned believed him or knew the truth. His crime wasn't being scared - it was oath-breaking. That is like The Biggest of Deals in Westeros. I just feel like Catelyn and Ned are held to an unbelievable standard for needing to be psychic to be considered not brain dead. Jamie isn't filled with clever stratagems - he just kills people and threatens to kill people and pushes kids out of windows. He can't even figure out his lover is faithless after knowing her his whole life. And she is the seething ball of bitterness that is Cersei Lannister, not someone who is remarkably two-faced and sweet in private. Not to mention breeding incompetent rulers, not securing succession of their own house, sabatoging the Night's Watch after credible reports of danger, trying to kill Arya while camped with her family, putting bastards on the throne jeopardizing the whole kingdom, thinking they could marry each other after putting bastards on the throne ...

[Umbelina]

Yes, panic is an immediate response, I agree, but as people have said, he was also oathbreaking and on the run, which in itself was scary.  There are reasons some people take Lorazepam every day, or anti depressants, etc.  I realize that back then they didn't know of those things, but simply questioning the man thoroughly in a different location could have led to different results for both the man, and for all those that will be at the mercy of they White Walkers, which Ned decided was a lie.

 

Now that we know how the Weirwood Trees (face trees) really work, Ned could have also got an answer THERE had he bothered consulting anyone at all about what he dismissed as a lie or fantasy or excuse to run.  He could have asked Old Nan, or consulted the elders/historians as well.  Maybe even if he believed him he would have still executed him because "that is the law."  He would have been able to forewarn and prepare people more though.  What was the damn rush?

 

As far as thinking Ned is a simpleton, I do.  He took his own rules into the capitol, and expected others to play by HIS standards, even when he was well warned not to do that, because they don't play that way.  Every move he made while there was downright stupid IMO, and he walked willingly into other people's plans.  Because of his lack of care, one daughter has been married to two monsters, and the other on the run through war torn country, and now studying to be a murderer herself, and his son is dead, along with a few wolves.  One son is on the run and another is turning into a tree.  His wife is also dead, as is he.  It drove me nuts in the books and on the show, and I  don't respect him at all.

 

I do see why others do, for good reasons.

 

I prefer intelligence to "honor" especially when dealing with dire situations and liars, which he should have know he was.

Edited June 7, 2015 by Umbelina

[InsertWordHere]

If R+L=J,  way to go, simpleton! You pulled one over every one of those sophisticated schemers, right under their noses too!

I have to admit, this is one of my big reasons for wanting R+L=J. It has nothing to do with any benefit to Jon's character, assuming it even benefits him at all. It doesn't even have anything to do with removing Ned's one stain of dishonor. No, I want it solely because it means Ned Stark, that trusting, too decent, honorable guy who some feel was too stupid to live, totally played the Game and won and no one had a clue. It doesn't matter that he died. As long as Jon's alive, Ned Stark won, because Ned Stark removed a valuable piece from the game for 15 years and unintentionally placed him exactly where he might do the most good. So while all the other schemers scheme, while Tywin lies dead by his own son's hand, while Cersei's Faith Militant turn on her,

and Littlefinger makes plans to control the food supply and let people starve,

Ned Stark's scheme might just save the world. Go Jon, go!

Edited June 7, 2015 by InsertWordHere

[Umbelina]

I have to admit, this is one of my big reasons for wanting R+L=J. It has nothing to do with any benefit to Jon's character, assuming it even benefits him at all. It doesn't even have anything to do with removing Ned's one stain of dishonor. No, I want it solely because it means Ned Stark, that trusting, too decent, honorable guy who some feel was too stupid to live, totally played the Game and won and no one had a clue. It doesn't matter that he died. As long as Jon's alive, Ned Stark won, because Ned Stark removed a valuable piece from the game for 15 years and unintentionally placed him exactly where he might do the most good. So while all the other schemers scheme, while Tywin lies dead by his own son's hand, while Cersei's Faith Militant turn on her,

and Littlefinger makes plans to control the food supply and let people starve,

Ned Stark's scheme might just save the world. Go Jon, go!

 

I think it just shows that when Ned vows to keep a secret he honors that vow, which is one of his many admirable qualities.

 

I will however be completely SHOCKED if Ned did it to somehow eventually put a Targaryen back on the throne.  After all, at that point his friend Robert was on the throne, and years later he was actively searching for Robert's bastards, so it seems to me that Ned wanted the Baratheon line to continue to rule.  Or, I may be misremembering something, it's been a while since I read the books  ???

Edited June 7, 2015 by Umbelina

[InsertWordHere]

I will however be completely SHOCKED if Ned did it to somehow eventually put a Targaryen back on the throne.  After all, at that point his friend Robert was on the throne, and years later he was actively searching for Robert's bastards, so it seems to me that Ned wanted the Baratheon line to continue to rule.  Or, I may be misremembering something, it's been a while since I read the books  ???

No, you're right, he didn't do it to use Jon as a piece in the game. Ned's scheme was simply to keep Jon alive, and to keep others from using him, and so far, he's won. That's why I like it so much. He had no ulterior motive, no plan to use Jon as a puppet so he could gain more power or to advance his house's interests. Sure, the other schemers are better at playing the Game of Thrones, but Ned Stark saw people, not pawns, and I love him for it. 

[Constantinople]

Now that we know how the Weirwood Trees (face trees) really work, Ned could have also got an answer THERE had he bothered consulting anyone at all about what he dismissed as a lie or fantasy or excuse to run.

How?

The trees didn't tell Ned that Lysa and Littlefinger murdered Jon Arryn. Why would they tell Ned that Will was telling the truth, and how would Ned be able to get the truth from them? Ned doesn't have any kind of training along those lines.

Bran has been shown to be far more gifted in this area than Ned, yet even Bran hasn't advanced beyond seeing a montage of youtube clips.

 

He could have asked Old Nan

What would that accomplish? Everyone already knows there are folk tales about White Walkers and that Nan tells them. How would that verify anything, one way or the other?

To re-cap, if a modern day deserter starting babbling about Grendel, the response would be of one of disbelief.

 

or consulted the elders/historians as well.

What elders and historians? The ones who say that White Walkers are old wives tales?

What would Maester Luwin say? I very much doubt he believes that White Walkers exist given that he doesn't believe in Giants or Children of the Forest.

 

Maybe even if he believed him he would have still executed him because "that is the law."  He would have been able to forewarn and prepare people more though.

Once again, how?

All Benjen did was to go out on a patrol to see what happened to the missing rangers.

No one, not even people in the North, believes in White Walkers, or magic in general.  When Jeor Mormont, the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, sent a raven to the Small Council to ask for more men because the dead were rising from the grave and attacking the living, the response was one of derision.

In summary, in my opinion, criticizing Ned Stark for executing Will or for not doing "something" about Will's news, holds Ned to an impossibly high standard.

[Umbelina]

Or you know, just for Ned to consider that he might be wrong before he kills his source.

 

I can't find a Ned Stark topic, so I guess I will put this here, it was spot on and kind of funny too.  Very good points in poster style.

http://unrealitymag.com/television/my-new-favorite-thing-stupid-ned-stark/

 

Then there is this:

 

This is also pretty good, http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2011/08/02/eddard-starks-ethics-of-honor

 

All of this discussion is making me remember exactly why I've hated Ned Stark from the moment I read the books.  He makes NO SENSE as a character, and is used simply as a rather sloppy impetus for the rest of the books to happen.  I mean really?  This is a grown man who rules the North and supposedly inspired loyalty, and yet he makes one idiotic choice after another.  I mean, how did the guy in Kings Landing even manage to put on his boots, let alone be supposed to have been such a wonderful leader in the North?  It was just bad writing.

Edited June 7, 2015 by Umbelina

[InsertWordHere]

I mean, how did the guy in Kings Landing even manage to put on his boots, let alone be supposed to have been such a wonderful leader in the North?  

Because King's Landing isn't the North. We're told multiple times that the North, like Dorne and the Iron Islands, is a completely different culture from the other more central regions. While I'm sure there's no huge culture shock for someone like Magaery to become lady of Storm's End or Lysa to move from Riverrun to the Vale, it would be different if they married a Greyjoy or an Umber. Cat's POV tells us that it took years for her to get used to the way things were at Winterfell. Cersei or Tywin couldn't go North and play their game with much success if they acted in the same style as they do in the south, and Ned can't go south and rule like he does in Winterfell. I doubt Ned's fostering in the Vale included extensive knowledge of how to act in King's Landing. As a second son, he likely never planned to have any sort of power in the south, but he probably did hope his father or brother would grant him a small holdfast in the North. He would know its people, and he would know how to rule there, though he wouldn't have known it would be on as large a scale as Lord Paramount of the North.

[Oscirus]

What exactly are we arguing?

 

If the argument is that Ned should have never beheaded that dude, that was always going to happen. Let's say best case scenario Ned finds out everything he was being told about the whitewalkers is true, dude still deserted his post and chose to run away and abandon his oath as opposed to returning to the night watch and telling his fellow brothers of the danger.  Desertion is punishable by death regardless of the circumstances.

 

If the argument is that Ned should've investigated the claims, that would be the better argument but still that doesn't fall on Ned, that falls on Benjeen and company. Even then it still comes down to how much time and resources are you willing to give to someone who is a legit deserter?

[Umbelina]

I think it started with that, but kind of moved beyond.  Ned seems to inspire strong feelings both ways. 

 

For me, the strongest feelings aren't about Eddard Stark, but rather GRRM, who wrote a very sloppy character that I didn't believe in, a plot point really, and have him behave so idiotically, or to be kind, naively, in order for the rest of the books to happen.  Oh, and to have the shocking death of someone that had every appearance of being "our hero."  I just never bought that this man, who had been a warrior and a leader for so long, wouldn't have more common sense, especially since he was warned several times, and simply by observing he should have picked up on "the ways" of the people in Kings Landing.  I think Arya intuited more about KL than Ned, and she was a child.

 

I did find his death more moving on the show though, because of excellent acting by all.  In the book, I nearly laughed out loud.

 

This link really says it all.  http://unrealitymag.com/television/my-new-favorite-thing-stupid-ned-stark/ Or at least, it points out some of the biggest WTFs! with Ned's story.

Edited June 7, 2015 by Umbelina

[InsertWordHere]

Is there going to be a pink letter? If Jon attempts to leave the Wall because Davos arrives and tells him Stannis commands him to march on Winterfell with the promise of more men, it lacks the same punch as Jon mustering men to go save his sister. Sure, in the books he paints it as fearing for the safety of Castle Black if the Boltons come a knocking, but he was really leaving for Arya and he was truly betraying his vows. 

 

I'd prefer a letter from Ramsay threatening Sansa, but knowing this show, if there is a letter, it will be from Sansa herself begging for help and getting Jon stabbed.

[benteen]

There's no time for a Pink Letter.

[Advance35]

I'm beginning to wonder who's next.  I thought Shireen's destiny might have gone the distance but man this episode torpedoed that theory.   D&D are managing to shock me and keep me enthralled.   Sad about her fate.   And a little sorry that Stannis has made a turn that there's no coming back from.

 

Who's a bigger villain Stannis and Mel or Roose and Ramsay.   Sansa is literally in the battle pit with monsters on both sides.   Speaking of I'm wondering if next week is going to be the curtain call of Sansa Stark.   She was talking big and tough and that usually preludes an unfortunate turn of events.

[benteen]

So if Shireen's death is a book scene, do we take it that Mel decides to burn her as a way of bringing back either Jon or Stannis?

[SeanC]

Speaking of I'm wondering if next week is going to be the curtain call of Sansa Stark.

Not a chance.

[benteen]

I agree with another poster...the show has to give the good guys some kind of hope next week.  A Sansa victory...Jon being revealed as alive.  Something.  I think it might be too much grim for the Unsullied.