Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Winnief]

Kevan mentions he's returning to Casterly Rok so it's very possible that like in the books, he will return to assume leadership after Cersei's arrest.  So do you think we'll still get Varys returning to Westeros and murdering him?  I would assume Kevan will be back...otherwise, Pycelle of all people might be the one who Varys murders alone

 

Yeah, I think they're definitely setting up that Kevan is the one who later *tries* to clean up Cersei's mess thus prompting Varys to kill him.  My guess is that after episode 3 and crossing the bridge at Volantis, Varys decides to head back to KL to pave the way for Dany, while Tyrion continues onward to be the one to convince Dany it's time to go to KL.

 

I did Lyanna Mormont's letter because it really does help set up how loyal the North is to the Starks...and the coming rebellion the Boltons are gonna have on their hands.  Sorry guys but strangely enough none of your neighbors ever wanted a House famous for flaying people in charge.  Go figure.

[Hecate7]

NM.

 

Remind me why Sansa is in disguise?

Edited April 20, 2015 by Hecate7

[ElizaD]

Kevan mentions he's returning to Casterly Rok so it's very possible that like in the books, he will return to assume leadership after Cersei's arrest.  So do you think we'll still get Varys returning to Westeros and murdering him?  I would assume Kevan will be back...otherwise, Pycelle of all people might be the one who Varys murders alone.

 

They brought Kevan back, IMO if he wasn't going to get killed they wouldn't have bothered and he would have stayed offscreen like Gendry/Beric/Blackfish.

[Lady S.]

Yeah, they wouldn't re-introduce a minor character unseen since s2 just to tell off Cersei in one quick small council scene.

[Winnief]

Nope, poor Kevan is going to be here just long enough for us to appreciate his awesome factor before Varys kills him. 

[Constantinople]

Brienne did go up to Joffrey and Sansa to offer her congratulations during the wedding feast, correct?  She would recognize Sansa if she saw her.

 

Brienne offered her congratulations to Joffrey and Margaery.

 

I don't recall if Sansa was around at the time, but if she was, she would have been at the far end of the table on Brienne's right (Joffrey & Margaery's left).

[Danny Franks]

I'm pretty sure there was at least one scene of Brienne watching Sansa from a distance, while talking with Jaime about his oath to Catelyn. Sansa may also have been there when Brienne had a scene with Margaery in the gardens.

 

Anyway, Brienne's not an idiot. She'd have seen Sansa in Kings Landing more than a few times, whether we were shown it or not. And Sansa would recognise Brienne, because six foot tall women in armour are not very common in Westeros. Just like you probably don't need to be one of Gregor Clegane's best buds to recognise that he's The Mountain. When he turns up being all giant and terrifying, you know who he is.

[elzin]

Nope, poor Kevan is going to be here just long enough for us to appreciate his awesome factor before Varys kills him. 

Not to be THAT person, but can Varys kill Kevan now? He's trotting about Essos .... he might not make it back to KL.  Maybe he'll just kind of be alive but off-camera like Balon WHO IS STILL ALIVE.

 

This last episode hurt my brain so much. I get that there are going to be changes and many of them are good, but many of them just don't make sense within the confines of the show. Yes, Brienne's search for Arya and Sansa would not have translated well to episodic tv. Fine, I get that.  But she's not acting much like Brienne.  Ellaria  might be grieving and hate the Lannisters, but she knows that Oberyn would be aghast at the IDEA of harming Myrcella, so why is she shrieking and threatening Doran about it? It has nothing to do with that they changed all the Dorne stuff, but that it doesn't make sense by its own continuity. 

 

We don't need to spend 100 of our precious 600 minutes showing Sam begging NW brothers to vote for Jon, training the ravens to say Snow, etc, but one speech by a guy everyone but Jon and Aemon hate is not going to change that many minds, especially as Alliser's rebuttal almost convinced ME to vote for him over Jon.  It didn't need to be dragged out, but it could have been written better, more believably.

 

Having Jaqen come back was one of those changes that works.  I don't really need to see Arya try to eat the worm.  But what didn't work was having her get there and get turned away to turn into Braavos street rat instead of KL street rat. 

[Maximum Taco]

We don't need to spend 100 of our precious 600 minutes showing Sam begging NW brothers to vote for Jon, training the ravens to say Snow, etc, but one speech by a guy everyone but Jon and Aemon hate is not going to change that many minds, especially as Alliser's rebuttal almost convinced ME to vote for him over Jon.  It didn't need to be dragged out, but it could have been written better, more believably.

 

 

I'm inclined to agree here.

 

It really didn't make any sense for so many people to abandon Ser Alliser for Jon, in the books it did because Sam played two factions against each other because they were splitting the vote and Janos Slynt was going to win simply by virtue of not being Denys Mallister or Cotter Pyke. A fourth candidate needed to be introduced to give everyone an option that was not Mallister or Pyke, and it worked.

 

The way they did it in the show just made Sam seem like a great orator, and he frankly is not. He's not a bad stand up comic, but his speech wouldn't have convinced me to not vote for Mallister or Thorne.

 

Also they could've dragged out the Jon Stark dilemma for a while. I thought that was atleast worthy of a cliffhanger. Could've had people excited for a whole week over the prospect of Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell.

[Shanna]

I'm pretty sure there was at least one scene of Brienne watching Sansa from a distance, while talking with Jaime about his oath to Catelyn. Sansa may also have been there when Brienne had a scene with Margaery in the gardens.

Anyway, Brienne's not an idiot. She'd have seen Sansa in Kings Landing more than a few times, whether we were shown it or not. And Sansa would recognise Brienne, because six foot tall women in armour are not very common in Westeros. Just like you probably don't need to be one of Gregor Clegane's best buds to recognise that he's The Mountain. When he turns up being all giant and terrifying, you know who he is.

Brienne is rather focused on Sansa. She made a vow, yadayadayada. She was paying attention to her. And of course, pod worked for her husband and would have been familiar with her as well, which makes it make sense that he recognized her. And brienne is hard to miss.

As for ser alister, I think there were probably a number of brothers who don't like him, and Don't like his friend, and were just looking for someone else to vote for that wasn't 100 years old.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Shanna

[Advance35]

We don't need to spend 100 of our precious 600 minutes showing Sam begging NW brothers to vote for Jon, training the ravens to say Snow, etc, but one speech by a guy everyone but Jon and Aemon hate is not going to change that many minds, especially as Alliser's rebuttal almost convinced ME to vote for him over Jon.  It didn't need to be dragged out, but it could have been written better, more believably.

 

In the books that was one of my favorite parts of Jon's corner of the story.   Watching Sam play all of the factions againt each other to make sure Jon was elected.     I don't suppose we'll see Sam's trip to the citadel either, which makes me question how much value that plot point will have in the book.   Last we checked in on them the Citadel was plotting against Dany and her dragons with a concealed Sand Snake weren't they?

[Constantinople]

Perhaps they should have had a scene emphasizing how hated Ser Alliser is.  I'm not sure what, perhaps some members of the Nights Watch muttering over dinner.

 

Of course, it didn't help that two of the people most likely to echo Sam's comments, Grenn & Pyp, were dead.

 

Sam also failed to mention that it was Jon who wanted to freeze the tunnel so the Giants couldn't get through.

[Maximum Taco]

In the books that was one of my favorite parts of Jon's corner of the story.   Watching Sam play all of the factions againt each other to make sure Jon was elected.     I don't suppose we'll see Sam's trip to the citadel either, which makes me question how much value that plot point will have in the book.   Last we checked in on them the Citadel was plotting against Dany and her dragons with a concealed Sand Snake weren't they?

 

I don't know if they're actively plotting against her, they definitely don't like her very much though.

 

The last we saw Sam he has told Archmaester Marwyn (whose Ring and Rod and Mask are Valyrian Steel) about Aemon's thoughts about Dany being the prince that was promised, and Marwyn leaves to be Dany's maester in Aemon's place. He tells Sam to forge his chain quickly and get back to the Wall. He also tells him to speak no more of prophecies or dragons, unless he fancies poison in his porridge.

 

But also suspected to be in the Citadel is a concealed Sand Snake (Sarella Sand masquerading as Alleras the Sphinx) and the faceless man who once was Jaqen H'ghar but is now the novice Pate.

[Hecate7]

Hecate I think we are going to have to agree to disagree with this one. Sansa was on the dais for joffreys wedding. She publicly married Tyrion. She got a rose from Laurus at a tourney. She was going to marry the prince an then she was a famous traitors child and she lived in kings landing for years. She is 9 feet tall. There are people in the kingdom not dead and not in kings landing who know what she looks like.

If brienne or pod had seen her they would have recogniEd her. Ditto the hound. There are likely lots of non important characters who would recognize her as well. She's not arya.

 

I think you've been proven right. :)

Brienne is rather focused on Sansa. She made a vow, yadayadayada. She was paying attention to her. And of course, pod worked for her husband and would have been familiar with her as well, which makes it make sense that he recognized her. And brienne is hard to miss.

 

 

It makes perfect sense for Pod to recognize her, because he was in a position to see her every day, and so would recognize her features even with the different hair color. Brienne is very focused on Sansa, but she might not have noticed the dark girl's strong resemblance to the redhead she met, without a little help. Good thing Pod was there.

[benteen]

Thanks for correcting my mistake, it was Joffrey and Margaery's wedding.  Brienne saw Sansa at least as a distance and I guess the point it moot now as Pod was the one who recognized her. 

[Ripley68]

I need to re-read the last books again.  I don't remember Varys killing Kevan, or the hidden sand snake.  It might be because I was so bored by people I didn't care about and over description.  So glad that things that took a gajillion pages (Jon's election) are only taking 5 minutes.

[Hecate7]

For all we know, that wasn't really Vary. But it probably was.

[Winnief]

It was definitely Varys who killed Kevan in the book...in the final chapter of ADWD, Kevan finds Pycelle dead and Varys there with a crossbow.  Varys's 'little birds' are there too to finish the job.  Basically, Varys kills Kevan because Kevan was doing too good a job of cleaning up Cersei's mess, and Varys wants KL to be in maximum chaos to pave the way for fAegon.  I see it happening similarly on the show except, this time Varys is trying to clear the way for Dany.

[Oscirus]

So can we assume that lannister males are natural born hands of the king?

[Maximum Taco]

I need to re-read the last books again.  I don't remember Varys killing Kevan, or the hidden sand snake.  It might be because I was so bored by people I didn't care about and over description.  So glad that things that took a gajillion pages (Jon's election) are only taking 5 minutes.

 

The hidden sand snake is easy to miss. There's only a few clues that point to it and it isn't confirmed yet. You could easily miss it if you aren't reading carefully.

 

There's a novice known as Alleras (called the Sphinx) in the citadel, he claims to have a Dornishman for a father and a Summer Islander for a mother. He is also a slim comely youth, which is how a woman dressed as a young man would look. He has a widows peak and black eyes, two traits Oberyn also has.

 

Sarella Sand, Oberyn's 4th daughter, also has a Dornishman for a father and a Summer Islander for a mother. She is remarked to have a love for learning and a love for Oldtown, both things which could lead her to the citadel. She is also known to "push in where she doesn't belong" and a woman does not belong in the citadel where only males can become maesters. Sarella is outside of Dorne when her sisters are captured by Doran, and Doran tells Hotah to "leave her at her game"

 

Finally Alleras is Sarella spelt backwards. These clues lead many to speculate that they are one and the same.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Ripley68]

In the books, the only Stark child known to be alive for sure is Sansa, and no one knows where she is...right? Arya has been missing, and I think everyone pretty much knows that Jeyne isn't her at Winterfell.

On the show, Jon knows that  Bran and Rickon are alive, he's about to know that Sansa is in Winterfell - will he tell her about  Bran and Rickon? That will totally change her game plan.Brienne knows Arya is alive - is she going to share that knowledge? That will be a huge change from the books where everyone assumes only 1 Stark is alive, to all of them but Rob are.

[Maximum Taco]

In the books, the only Stark child known to be alive for sure is Sansa, and no one knows where she is...right? Arya has been missing, and I think everyone pretty much knows that Jeyne isn't her at Winterfell.

On the show, Jon knows that  Bran and Rickon are alive, he's about to know that Sansa is in Winterfell - will he tell her about  Bran and Rickon? That will totally change her game plan.Brienne knows Arya is alive - is she going to share that knowledge? That will be a huge change from the books where everyone assumes only 1 Stark is alive, to all of them but Rob are.

 

Does Jon know that Bran and Rickon are alive in the show? When did he find out?

[SilverShadow]

Does Jon know that Bran and Rickon are alive in the show? When did he find out?

 

Sam confessed to meeting Bran and the Reeds in the show, unlike the books.

[Holmbo]

This last episode hurt my brain so much. I get that there are going to be changes and many of them are good, but many of them just don't make sense within the confines of the show. Yes, Brienne's search for Arya and Sansa would not have translated well to episodic tv. Fine, I get that.  But she's not acting much like Brienne.  Ellaria  might be grieving and hate the Lannisters, but she knows that Oberyn would be aghast at the IDEA of harming Myrcella, so why is she shrieking and threatening Doran about it? It has nothing to do with that they changed all the Dorne stuff, but that it doesn't make sense by its own continuity. 

 

We don't need to spend 100 of our precious 600 minutes showing Sam begging NW brothers to vote for Jon, training the ravens to say Snow, etc, but one speech by a guy everyone but Jon and Aemon hate is not going to change that many minds, especially as Alliser's rebuttal almost convinced ME to vote for him over Jon.  It didn't need to be dragged out, but it could have been written better, more believably.

 

Having Jaqen come back was one of those changes that works.  I don't really need to see Arya try to eat the worm.  But what didn't work was having her get there and get turned away to turn into Braavos street rat instead of KL street rat. 

 

I agree that Ellaria doesn't make much sense considering what we've seen earlier of her and Oberyn. If I were to guess I think that the point of that whole exchange was to establish Doran's character. They needed someone to be really insulting towards him the way Arianne did in the books to show how "weak" he is.

 

With the LC plot I remember reading that one of the actors cast for that plot died. I think it was the guy playing the commander from the other castle. So possibly they had some scenes filmed and then had to slap something together with the speeches. I don't think it was unbelievable really. Because even though Thorne is probably seen as a capable nights watchman he's also the guy who all the new guys have been insulted and berated by in the training yard. So just like Jon Snow he'd probably have a lot of people who don't like him.

[Hecate7]

It was definitely Varys who killed Kevan in the book...in the final chapter of ADWD, Kevan finds Pycelle dead and Varys there with a crossbow.  Varys's 'little birds' are there too to finish the job.  Basically, Varys kills Kevan because Kevan was doing too good a job of cleaning up Cersei's mess, and Varys wants KL to be in maximum chaos to pave the way for fAegon.  I see it happening similarly on the show except, this time Varys is trying to clear the way for Dany.

 

That's not what I meant. For all we know, Varys has been dead for years, and that was some assassin wearing his face and telling his story hoping someone would hear. But probably not. I know they will probably go the same route on the show.

[Danny Franks]

They don't need Varys there. They can just show Varys looking smug, saying something about his little birds looking after his affairs in Kings Landing, then cut to Kevan being attacked by a swarm of creepy children. I think people will get it. Seems like Varys is going to be a little busy on the other side of the world. But honestly, Kevan said he was leaving Kings Landing, and if he means that, then he doesn't need to die. He really did just come back to berate Cersei and highlight the fact that she's trying to rule in Tommen's stead, and that she sucks. I don't think his presence has to mean anything more than that.

 

And for all we know everyone is dead, not just Varys, and they're all actually just White Walkers acting out some epic LARP session. Seems unlikely though, doesn't it?

[WearyTraveler]

In the books Kevan left when Cersei refused his offer.  He went back to King's Landing after Cersei and Margery had been arrested and became Regent in Cersei's place.  Then, Varys killed him and Pycelle.  It could happen the same way on the show.  It's not as if they follow the distances and transportation difficulties outlined in the books.

 

For example, last year Stannis went to Braavos to ask the bank for money and then headed for The Wall with enough time to save The NW from the Wildlings.  The show is purposely vague about distances and required travel time, I think, to make it easier to get certain characters where they need them to be fast.  I personally don't have a problem with this because it speeds the story along.

[Ripley68]

Time being wonky is shown no better than with Gilly's baby.  All the other kids are ageing (see Robin tyring to fight with swords last epi), but baby is not.

 

I thought Jon actually talked to Bran and Bran asked him not to stop  him.  I can't really remember

[WearyTraveler]

Time being wonky is shown no better than with Gilly's baby.  All the other kids are ageing (see Robin tyring to fight with swords last epi), but baby is not.

 

I thought Jon actually talked to Bran and Bran asked him not to stop  him.  I can't really remember

 

No, Bran was in Craster's Keep when Jon went there on Thorne's command.  There was a moment when Bran could have decided to reveal himself to Jon, but he chose to escape the fight and continue on his mission.  It was Sam who told Jon that he'd seen Bran and that he (Bran) was alive.

[yellowfred]

For example, last year Stannis went to Braavos to ask the bank for money and then headed for The Wall with enough time to save The NW from the Wildlings.  The show is purposely vague about distances and required travel time, I think, to make it easier to get certain characters where they need them to be fast.

 

I think my favorite thing about that is that Stannis went from Dragonstone to Braavos, met with the Iron Bank, then went to Eastwatch (presumably), and rode to Castle Black, and he only got there a day after the Wildlings on the south side of the wall, who left before he did from somewhere near the Nightfort.  I mean, sure, he had horses and ships with bonus wind from the guys they burned alive, but that still means the Wildlings are slow as hell. 

[DigitalCount]

Weren't the wildlings traveling with old people and children too? I'm okay with Stannis' military force being faster than that.

[Maximum Taco]

In the books Kevan left when Cersei refused his offer.  He went back to King's Landing after Cersei and Margery had been arrested and became Regent in Cersei's place.  Then, Varys killed him and Pycelle.  It could happen the same way on the show.  It's not as if they follow the distances and transportation difficulties outlined in the books.

 

I think it's going to happen the same as the books. I don't see why they'd being Kevan back just to give a little bit of exposition on Sparrow Lancel and then bitch slap Cersei. They could've just hired an extra to do that, or even just have Jaime (or literally anyone) explain what's been up with Lancel, getting the same actor back makes it seem like he'll be more important in later episodes.

 

Winter is Coming and Watchers of the Wall did report that Kevan will make an appearence in episode 10 as well.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Jennifersdc]

I've never posted in this thread before (reality TV - hangs head in shame). This is the place to comment on books vs HBO (haven't read comments yet)? I just have to say I'm highly disappointed. I understand needing to change/omit for the series, but too many changed plot lines for me (Sansa? Brienne? Jamie?). I understand Varys, but the epilogue in ADWD was pretty awesome.

BTW - I'm also an unabashed Stannis fan (book wise too). And why are they making Cersei actually look somewhat capable?

At least they'll apparently bringing on the Sand Snakes. Hopefully they've realized the value of Queen of Thorns (see Varys) so we get to see more of her.

[Holmbo]

I understand Varys, but the epilogue in ADWD was pretty awesome.

I don't think we could count out Varys epilogue yet. He could show up in kingslanding at the end of the season.

Generally I'm fine with the changes. This way we get two versions of the story instead of just one. If we don't like the show one the book version is not going anywhere for that.

[Hanahope]

Generally I'm fine with the changes. This way we get two versions of the story instead of just one. If we don't like the show one the book version is not going anywhere for that.

 

At least we can hope that eventually we'll get another version of the story . . . . some decade.

[Notwisconsin]

At least we can hope that eventually we'll get another version of the story . . . . some decade.

A year ago, they put out the paperback version of a D of D as two volumes: Part one: Dreams and Dust; and part two:After the Feast. Now that there's a precident, it might be nice to do that with Winds of Winter.....

[SeanC]

A year ago, they put out the paperback version of a D of D as two volumes: Part one: Dreams and Dust; and part two:After the Feast. Now that there's a precident, it might be nice to do that with Winds of Winter.....

They've been doing that in Europe since A Storm of Swords. 

[Cheshrkat]

 

Arya has been missing, and I think everyone pretty much knows that Jeyne isn't her at Winterfell.

 

I don't actually think everyone knows that - certainly not everyone outside of Winterfell.  The Northern clansmen believe that part of their mission is to save "Ned's girl".  Stannis tells Jon that he will save his sister, if he can.  I think Jon believes that the Boltons have Arya.

 

And Theon certainly tells Jeyne not to let Stannis know she isn't Arya - if everyone already knew, there's be no purpose to Jeyne continuing to pretend.

[Holmbo]

At least we can hope that eventually we'll get another version of the story . . . . some decade.

Even if we don't we're still getting more than we would get without the show.

[InsertWordHere]

Is Brienne going to met some crannogmen since she's bypassing Moat Cailin, or is the Moat not as important in the tv universe?

[benteen]

Is Brienne going to met some crannogmen since she's bypassing Moat Cailin, or is the Moat not as important in the tv universe?

 

Sadly I suspect it's not as important on the show.  They changed one aspect already as going through Moat Cailin is the ONLY way to get to Winterfell.

Edited April 27, 2015 by benteen

[Winnief]

Is Brienne going to met some crannogmen since she's bypassing Moat Cailin, or is the Moat not as important in the tv universe?

 

I think for the sake of streamlining the story, Brienne *won't* meet any Crannogmen, but may intercept with other Northern lords and Stannis's army pretty soon...in fact I foresee a conflict with Brienne having to choose between vengeance on Stannis or protecting Sansa. 

 

I'm hoping that since ShowRamsay is a LOT smarter than the book version, Sansa won't be getting the full Jeyne Poole treatment, (which I couldn't have stood to watch happen to ANYBODY, really.)  And I must admit, "The North Remembers" gave me goosebumps.  Sophie interacting with Alfie and GNC, would make me very, VERY happy...and its reassuring to realize that two Starks are now in the same geographical area at least for a family reunion I'm betting at the beginning of Season 6.

[nksarmi]

I think for the sake of streamlining the story, Brienne *won't* meet any Crannogmen, but may intercept with other Northern lords and Stannis's army pretty soon...in fact I foresee a conflict with Brienne having to choose between vengeance on Stannis or protecting Sansa. 

 

I'm hoping that since ShowRamsay is a LOT smarter than the book version, Sansa won't be getting the full Jeyne Poole treatment, (which I couldn't have stood to watch happen to ANYBODY, really.)  And I must admit, "The North Remembers" gave me goosebumps.  Sophie interacting with Alfie and GNC, would make me very, VERY happy...and its reassuring to realize that two Starks are now in the same geographical area at least for a family reunion I'm betting at the beginning of Season 6.

And odds are very good Ricken is being hidden somewhere in the North. 

[Scarlett45]

I do hope we don't lose Vayrs now that Jorah has kidnapped Tyrion. Perhaps they make a deal to travel together.

[Advance35]

I really like Sansa's storyline or at least what we've seen of it in TWOW but I'm also really enjoying her interacting with different though known characters.   I think the Northern storyline has universally good actors and since it's likely it's going to be a multi-side fight to control Winterfell/The North between Stannis, Mel, Davos/Roose, Ramsay/Littlefinger and Sansa, I'm seeing a lot of storyline potential.  One also has to mix Theon in as well.

 

I'm not so sold on Margaery.   She seemed much more sly in the book, the show version doesn't impress me and I get the impression she's come as far as she has due to coaching from Olenna.   I feel like Olenna would counsel her not to kneedle Cersei until victory is assured.  By taunting her and openly laughing at her in FRONT of her Ladies she all but announced to Cersei "Your going down."   Show!Cersei might not have known for sure that Tommen mentioning Casterly Rock being her home was a seed being planted.  Now she has time to make a counter-move.

[InsertWordHere]

I do hope we don't lose Vayrs now that Jorah has kidnapped Tyrion. Perhaps they make a deal to travel together.

I assumed he was going to turn around and return to King's Landing in time to murder some people. 

[Hecate7]

They don't need Varys there. They can just show Varys looking smug, saying something about his little birds looking after his affairs in Kings Landing, then cut to Kevan being attacked by a swarm of creepy children. I think people will get it. Seems like Varys is going to be a little busy on the other side of the world. But honestly, Kevan said he was leaving Kings Landing, and if he means that, then he doesn't need to die. He really did just come back to berate Cersei and highlight the fact that she's trying to rule in Tommen's stead, and that she sucks. I don't think his presence has to mean anything more than that.

 

And for all we know everyone is dead, not just Varys, and they're all actually just White Walkers acting out some epic LARP session. Seems unlikely though, doesn't it?

 

Yes, because it's not like there's some secret organization of assassins someplace, highly relevant to the story in some as yet unspecified way, who run around looking EXACTLY like other people, in order to kill people, but who have yet to kill anyone who's of any importance to the story.  And if there were, we would always recognize them and know exactly what they were up to.

[Mr. Simpatico]

I'm not so sold on Margaery.   She seemed much more sly in the book, the show version doesn't impress me and I get the impression she's come as far as she has due to coaching from Olenna.   I feel like Olenna would counsel her not to kneedle Cersei until victory is assured.  By taunting her and openly laughing at her in FRONT of her Ladies she all but announced to Cersei "Your going down."   Show!Cersei might not have known for sure that Tommen mentioning Casterly Rock being her home was a seed being planted.  Now she has time to make a counter-move.

Yes. In the books Margery's motivations are in the dark and a lot of it seems fueled by Cersei's paranoia (given we only see Cersei's POV) but I'm not sure making Marg as big a schemer as Cersei does the character any favors.

 

The real question I have (other than praying to the Old Gods D&D haven't removed Manderely and White Harbour from the show) is how the Sansa plot makes sense. I realize it's easier for the show than a) ignoring it or b) introducing Jeyne Poole as Fake!Arya but in the books Roose's direct involvement with Robb's murder is not known (guessed at sure but if it was known he would be labeled a "Kingslayer" which we see is one of the worst name in Westeros) and many of the people at the wedding know Fake!Arya is not really Arya and has no choice but to do what the Boltons say (and those who don't help Stannis to free "Ned's girl"). Here we have a very real Sansa Stark with EVERYBODY there (including Sansa) knows Roose killed Robb and betrayed him and with Littlefinger there they have no way of forcing the marriage to happen. 

So how does this happen exactly? What if Sansa says "no"? What will Roose and Ramsay do? Why the heck is neither one of them worried about Roose's involvement in Robb's death being known to her (in the books Roose hardly talks about it and neither does Ramsay). Why the heck, given Roose's betrayal is common knowledge, even think she's OK with either of them? And what does she have to gain (yeah, we know revenge and whatever LF is planning but the Boltons don't know that)? And do the other Nobles in the North (which this episode itself admits are not with the Boltons) really think Sansa Stark would marry the son of her brother's murderer? How does this plot make sense?

[WearyTraveler]

Maybe they (show Roose and Ramsay) are not afraid of a young woman?  Women have very little agency in Westeros.  Maybe they think LF has brainwashed Sansa, which, given who LF is, anyone who knows him knows he's capable of it.  Or maybe they don't quite trust her but think they can pretty much neutralize her if she tries anything.

[Danny Franks]

Yes, because it's not like there's some secret organization of assassins someplace, highly relevant to the story in some as yet unspecified way, who run around looking EXACTLY like other people, in order to kill people, but who have yet to kill anyone who's of any importance to the story.  And if there were, we would always recognize them and know exactly what they were up to.

 

How do you know they're "highly relevant" to the story? There are many things on this show, and in the books, that have seemed important then proved not to be. I'm not going to start looking under tables and beds for Faceless Men, just yet. The characters on the show are mostly duplicitous and conniving enough without suddenly being revealed to be not the person you thought they were all along, because they were wearing a magical mask.

 

So how does this happen exactly? What if Sansa says "no"? What will Roose and Ramsay do? Why the heck is neither one of them worried about Roose's involvement in Robb's death being known to her (in the books Roose hardly talks about it and neither does Ramsay). Why the heck, given Roose's betrayal is common knowledge, even think she's OK with either of them? And what does she have to gain (yeah, we know revenge and whatever LF is planning but the Boltons don't know that)? And do the other Nobles in the North (which this episode itself admits are not with the Boltons) really think Sansa Stark would marry the son of her brother's murderer? How does this plot make sense?

 

 

Honest answer? It doesn't. You can't have the Warden of the North's heir openly marry a traitor's daughter, who is wanted for regicide, and who is already married, and let the actual royal family know about it. It's a silly shortcut, and seems engineered to make Sansa relevant (a good thing) and potentially make her vulnerable to even more sadistic, vile abuse than she was before (a very bad thing).

 

I know I'm just not going to enjoy the rest of the season now, because I'll be constantly waiting for the other shoe to drop with Ramsay. He might play nice for a while, but at some point he's going to be the monster that GRRM giggled about when writing ADWD, and that Benioff and Weiss won't be able to resist. So... great. It takes away any enjoyment I was expecting to feel about season 5.