Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[jellysalmon]

What i like about the prophecy is that it is seemingly specific, but entirely. The new queen could be Margaery or Dany or Sansa. Valonqar could be Jamie, Tyrion, Loras.

I don't remember the specifics for the kids prophecy. How was it worded in the books? Was it explicit that they all die before Cersei?

[nksarmi]

What i like about the prophecy is that it is seemingly specific, but entirely. The new queen could be Margaery or Dany or Sansa. Valonqar could be Jamie, Tyrion, Loras.

I don't remember the specifics for the kids prophecy. How was it worded in the books? Was it explicit that they all die before Cersei?

I just remember thinking the prophesy meant Danny but of course Cersi thinks its Margaery and since she believes the prophesy is Tyrion, it's probably Jamie instead (I think this is important because the specifically tell us she was born first).  I was bummed they left that part out tonight, but maybe they won't use that plot to kill her?  Jamie has not had the experiences yet that he had in the books that drove him to change and be less like his sister.

[magdalene]

What is the consensus on who the Valonqar is? I know Cersei thinks it's Tyrion, but I always thought it was Jaime. I have thought this for so long I'll be shocked if this doesn't happen on the show.

[ElizaD]

I can't recall if it was in this thread, but I remember someone speculating that despite the cutting of Stoneheart, the show might be heading for a version of Brienne's Choice with her emphasis on killing Stannis. If she does meet Sansa after she and Theon have presumably escaped the Boltons and joined Stannis, Brienne might have to choose between avenging Renly and serving Sansa who wants to be Stannis' ally. Or she might meet Sansa even earlier if she and Pod replace dead Mance as the infiltrators of Winterfell.

 

What is the consensus on who the Valonqar is? I know Cersei thinks it's Tyrion, but I always thought it was Jaime. I have thought this for so long I'll be shocked if this doesn't happen on the show.

 

The general consensus is that Cersei is wrong and Jaime, not Tyrion, is the valonqar. The younger queen is a little more mixed, some think that it's Margaery because Cersei made the prophecy come true and destroyed herself in trying to take her down, others that it's Dany or Sansa and Cersei got the identity wrong again.

[Winnief]

The general consensus is that Cersei is wrong and Jaime, not Tyrion, is the valonqar. The younger queen is a little more mixed, some think that it's Margaery because Cersei made the prophecy come true and destroyed herself in trying to take her down, others that it's Dany or Sansa and Cersei got the identity wrong again.

 

Yeah, Jaime is the Valonqar and I think it will happen on the show too-they just want to keep it more of a surprise.  Plus maybe they felt the prophecy angle was a bit of a 'cheat' for Cersei's relationship with Tyrion and inconsistent as well, because while Cersei's also hated and despised Tyrion pre-Purple wedding she never showed any *fear* of him.  Frankly that always bugged me about the books.

 

The YMBQ is up for discussion.  Cersei for obvious reasons thinks its Margaery, (who I fear will not be long lived) but Cersei is almost always wrong and I see no reason for her to be correct this time around.  I think Martin *wants* readers to think its Dany, but I think it's going to be Sansa for the following reasons. 

 

a. Sansa is *definitely* being set up as a player....and Tyrion himself noted that she was well suited to be Queen, which could be foreshadowing.

 

b.  By her involvement in Joffrey's death (even unwittingly) Sansa has already helped to rob Cersei of something she holds dear.  Also in the books, Brienne gets Jaime to leave the camp by saying Sansa needs help, and its quite possible something similar will happen on the show as well so in a sense Sansa 'robbed' Cersei of Jaime though again unknowingly.  Dany for all her armies and dragons had NOTHING to do with any of Cersei's current problems and perhaps never will considering how long its taking her to get to Westeros. 

 

c.  There would certainly be a delicious irony if Cersei's former captive, the 'little dove' and Ned Stark's 'empty headed daughter' who Cersei always scorned as stupid and weak were the one to supplant her.

 

d.  Out of all the candidates for YMBQ, Sansa has the most emotional resonance and dramatic backstory with Cersei-even more so than Margaery (though Seven knows Margaery/Cersei has been incredibly fun.)  Hell, Dany and Cersei have never even met so if it is Dany, while I suppose it might make logistical sense its just not going to have much drama or catharsis for viewers.  (Now Dany/Tywin on the other hand would have been spellbinding but alas it was not to be.)  Personally, I thought Cersei/Sansa in Blackwater was designed specifically to help set up Sansa as the YMBQ.

 

Admittedly this is all conjecture on my part-in this series anything can and does happen so maybe Dany is the YMBQ, or maybe even Cersei was freaking right for a change and it is Margaery...the only thing I'm really certain of is that we can eliminate Arianne Martell from the betting pool!  :)

[Maximum Taco]

What is the consensus on who the Valonqar is? I know Cersei thinks it's Tyrion, but I always thought it was Jaime. I have thought this for so long I'll be shocked if this doesn't happen on the show.

 

Jaime is probably the consensus. And I would not be surprised if it was him.

 

Some people back the idea of Tommen. Either with him having a fake death (thus confirming his "gold shroud") or he'll somehow metaphorically strangle her. Or it'll be undead wight Tommen.

 

I don't put too much stock in undead Tommen though, for it to be Tommen (IMO) I think Myrcella will need to be crowned in Dorne before Tommen actually dies, and Tommen will be the last to die, with Myrcella going before him.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Constantinople]

Speaking of valonqars, Gilly must have a bunch of them running around.

Not that I think any of them is the valonqar, if only because choking doesn't seem to be their thing.

I'm not even sure if I care who the valonqar is.

[Danny Franks]

If Sansa ends up being abused by Ramsay, I quit. I already find Ramsay ridiculous, and I have no interest in seeing him be comically evil again, especially to a character I actually quite like.

 

As for the Younger Queen prophecy, I kind of think it doesn't really matter who it is. The prophecy itself, and the threat it carries, is what has driven so much of what Cersei has done, and so much of what she feels, that it seems inconsequential as to who this younger woman may be. Sansa, Margaery, Dany, Arianne Martell (oh sorry, she doesn't exist, does she?), it makes no difference.

[BlackberryJam]

Just clarifying. The prophecy says nothing about a "younger, more beautiful queen." The prophecy says Cersei will be queen until there comes "another, younger and more beautiful." The AYMB doesn't need to be a queen at all. That kind of drives me nuts, it's not YMBQ. All it says is that Cersei will be queen until someone younger and more beautiful comes along and takes everything from her.

That being said, Cersei interprets it as YMBQ and thinks it's Marg and Cersei is wrong about everything.

I think they left out the valonqar bit because it is not the important part of the prophecy, the "gold their crowns and gold their shrouds" part is. The prophecy is all about Cersei hopping on the crazy train.

Edited April 13, 2015 by BlackberryJam

[Holmbo]

By the way Sam's scene this episode was not something I would ever imagine book Sam saying but it fit perfectly for show Sam.

[enchantingmonkey]

What was Melisandre's motivation for keeping Mance alive in the books?  I know he doesn't die at this point in the books, just don't know why she sends Rattleshirt in his place.  

[Winnief]

Mel presumably was saving Mance to go on the mission to Winterfell later...yeah never made much sense to me either.

[Mya Stone]

What was Melisandre's motivation for keeping Mance alive in the books?  I know he doesn't die at this point in the books, just don't know why she sends Rattleshirt in his place.  

 

From what I can recall, Jon asked for Mance's life to be spared, and Mel stated she would take his guidance and look to her fires. 

I'm guessing she saw him being of importance to saving fArya (the girl in grey) who she saw in the fire. 

Whether or not Stannis knows, though? That I don't know. I would imagine he does - and I would imagine he's expecting Mance to weaken the castle's host. But that's just postulation on my part. 

[Shanna]

What was Melisandre's motivation for keeping Mance alive in the books? I know he doesn't die at this point in the books, just don't know why she sends Rattleshirt in his place.

Do we know for sure this was really mance who died? I will miss the minstrel mance part of the winterfell plot although I guess I get why they wouldn't do it.

I think It would be massively awesome if the younger and more beautiful one was arya. Because she looks like lyana and it would be nice to see her take everything from Cersei and marry gendry. At least that is why I would do if I were writing fanfic ;)

[Mya Stone]

Do we know for sure this was really mance who died? I will miss the minstrel mance part of the winterfell plot although I guess I get why they wouldn't do it.

I'm not 100% sure...but I would take the fact that we were shown Mance and Jon's conversation to mean yes, it really was Mance. He has given me no reason to think it wasn't really him, whereas in the book Rattleshirt was prattling on and begging not to die, saying he wasn't really "him," etc. This Mance went out like real Mance should have: stoically. Terrified, but stoically. Jon spared him from screaming, yes, but he didn't beg for his life like Rattleshirt did. IMO, of course.

[Winnief]

Yeah, I'm quite sure this Mance was the genuine article and they're just going to skip the whole minstrel at WF, element for something else.  Basically the showrunners have decided to start doing some negative population growth for the series now that we're getting closer to the end, so you can expect to see a LOT of character pruning starting with this season.  Probably a wise move.

[Holmbo]

It's also smart of them not to introduce magic if it's not essential to the plot. For example no Melisandre burning the eagle without explanation how and now no glamor.

[ElizaD]

Yeah, I'm quite sure this Mance was the genuine article and they're just going to skip the whole minstrel at WF, element for something else.  Basically the showrunners have decided to start doing some negative population growth for the series now that we're getting closer to the end, so you can expect to see a LOT of character pruning starting with this season.  Probably a wise move.

 

Mance dying has made me wonder if we'll see the Hound again. I'm not a big believer in any of the Hound theories because everything seems too uncertain to be predicted with the same confidence as something like the Martells joining Aegon, but in the books it at least seems possible that he'll leave anonymity. On the show, though, unless he's critical to the outcome of the trial, he might join Mance despite being a bigger and better loved character.

[Oscirus]

I'm 95 percent sure the queen in the prophecy is Sansa. This is basically written like Oedipus rex ( the incest is just an added bonus ). Person gets prophecy, person does everything they can to avoid prophecy, person winds up accidentally making prophecy come true through their defensive actions. 

 

As a bonus, there's also the second part about taking everything she holds dear. Sansa is the only potential queen candidate who can even remotely be said to have a hand in Joffrey's death.

[Shanna]

I think in the books the hound may one day do something about his brother. That's the thread that I want him involved with. But it's not crucial or anything.

I guess mance is really dead and we aren't getting all that other, but I think they had an out to so that. But they are consolidating some wall stuff too, I'm sure shireen is in danger from Melisandre and probably gillys baby. There was some foreshadowing of Sam and gilly leaving this past episode but I'm not sure what the reason will be.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Shanna

[Advance35]

I'm also now super curious about the Red Religion.   We know Melissandre originally set out to  come to Kings Landing and ensnare Robert Baratheon (would have been interesting to see the Lannisters handle that) but we are now seeing their presence in Dany's part of the world as well.  I'm more curious than ever what the endgame for THAT faction is.  Did we see them in Dany parts in the book, I know we saw them mixed up with the Iron Born in ADWD.

 

I love that the show is moving the story forward and I'm learning and seeing things evolve but a part of me is a little saddened that so many theories I had couldn't possibly be true.  I thought Harry The Heir was going to be important and Sansa would play a HUGE part in the Vale/helping to decide who they aide in terms of food rations.

 

Though I didn't care much either way I did think Tyrion and Tysha would meet again,  I did think Aegon would sit the Iron Throne at least for a little while, If Randyll Tarly was going to play as huge a role as I thought in the future, I think he would have been casted.  I'm glad I'll know who ultimately wins the Iron Throne in the next year or so but it's bittersweet when I realize how wrong I was about a few things.

 

I'm 95 percent sure the queen in the prophecy is Sansa. This is basically written like Oedipus rex ( the incest is just an added bonus ). Person gets prophecy, person does everything they can to avoid prophecy, person winds up accidentally making prophecy come true through their defensive actions.

As a bonus, there's also the second part about taking everything she holds dear. Sansa is the only potential queen candidate who can even remotely be said to have a hand in Joffrey's death.

 

I wonder what, if anything could get Sansa to head back to Kings Landing.  In the book you feel like it's a distinct possibility that Ser Shadrich will kidnap her and drag her back to face Cersei/The Iron Throne but since nobody like that has been casted and Sansa's identity is in fact known to a few people, I know longer think that's the case.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Advance35

[WearyTraveler]

Did we see them in Dany parts in the book, I know we saw them mixed up with the Iron Born in ADWD.

 

IIRC, Dany mentions seeing the red priests in Essos (Pentos, maybe? At Illyrio's house?), but it's just part of her general description of the world outside that she has seen.  I can't recall, ATM, any direct encounter between Dany and the R'hllor priests / believers.

 

ETA: a brief search of A Wiki of Ice and Fire yields the following:

 

In her newly conquered city of Meereen atop the Great Pyramid, Daenerys Targaryen contemplated the gods and thought about religion. She recalled that the red priests believed in two gods, she had heard, but two who were eternally at war. Dany does not like the sound of that. She thinks to herself that she would not want to be eternally at war.

Edited April 14, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[blixie]

 

For example no Melisandre burning the eagle without explanation how and now no glamor.

 

But they did use the shadow baby which is arguably way fucking weirder on the magics people are used to scale, and they've already did a face morph with Jaquen. So I do think that's part of the reason I'm just not sure why, now just cutting it because they've excised the entire fArya storyline, makes the most sense and I'm grateful for it, as long as now it's not Sansa stuck with Ramsey.

[Winnief]

I wonder what, if anything could get Sansa to head back to Kings Landing.  In the book you feel like it's a distinct possibility that Ser Shadrich will kidnap her and drag her back to face Cersei/The Iron Throne but since nobody like that has been casted and Sansa's identity is in fact known to a few people, I know longer think that's the case.

 

I think Shadrach may *try* to kidnap Sansa, (for Cersei or perhaps an award from Varys) but I don't think he'll succeed.  And Sansa doesn't have to return to KL, (which is almost certainly going to burn at some point anyway,) to have some kind of showdown with Cersei later on.  I think its more than likely Cersei is going to run to Casterly Rock at some point, and they're waiting to show us that one. 

[Holmbo]

But they did use the shadow baby which is arguably way fucking weirder on the magics people are used to scale, and they've already did a face morph with Jaquen. So I do think that's part of the reason I'm just not sure why, now just cutting it because they've excised the entire fArya storyline, makes the most sense and I'm grateful for it, as long as now it's not Sansa stuck with Ramsey.

I'm not saying they cut magic that was the weirdest. Just that they cut magic not essential to the plot. Melisandre killing Renly with magic for Stannis was important for many reasons. Mance future roll, if needed, can be taken over by another character.

[Anithe1]

 

I'm not even sure if I care who the valonqar is.

 

Ha, me either. I tried to come up with a list once and drove myself nuts. (Even (F?)aegon could be presented as a little brother, and Jon would be one too since R+L=J would give him two older half-siblings.) I've decided to quit speculating for now - there are a lot of little brothers in the Seven Kingdoms and a good many of them have reason to be just as unhappy with Cersei as her actual brothers are.

[Winnief]

I'm not saying they cut magic that was the weirdest. Just that they cut magic not essential to the plot. Melisandre killing Renly with magic for Stannis was important for many reasons. Mance future roll, if needed, can be taken over by another character.

 

 

Precisely.  The whole thing was unnecessary filler and that's the last thing we need now.  Also while Mel's magic can and indeed SHOULD be weird, (that's what makes it so unnerving,) its best if its used sparingly otherwise it becomes sort of a cheap gimmick/deux ex machine. 

[The Mormegil]

I'm also now super curious about the Red Religion.   We know Melissandre originally set out to  come to Kings Landing and ensnare Robert Baratheon (would have been interesting to see the Lannisters handle that) but we are now seeing their presence in Dany's part of the world as well.  I'm more curious than ever what the endgame for THAT faction is.  Did we see them in Dany parts in the book, I know we saw them mixed up with the Iron Born in ADWD.

 

 

In the books Benerro the high priest of R'hllor in Volantis is actually preaching that Dany is Azor Ahai reborn.It's him who sends Moqorro to Dany to help and guide her.

[Shanna]

I always kind of thought Melisandre might be worshipping the dark opposite of The Lord of light. She and thoros seem so different, although maybe not from the red priests in whatever that town was with the temple.

[Advance35]

Interesting Interview that gives some insight into LF's Future.

 

http://www.salon.com/2015/04/14/game_of_thrones_star_aidan_gillen_on_littlefingers_weakness_for_sansa_stark_shes_playing_him_as_much_as_hes_playing_her/

 

From the sounds of it, Littlefinger will definitely
be alive at the end of the season. If he's alive at the end of this season, does this mean he will also be alive at the end of TWOW? The only one that didn't make it seem like they would definitely be around next year is ST who said Sansa ends on an ambiguous note.

 

I'm going to spend so much time trying to reconcile what happens this season with the books.  

[Minneapple]

I'm going to spend so much time trying to reconcile what happens this season with the books.

If/when they write stuff that vaguely resembles book events, I'll be like, HEY! THAT WAS IN THE BOOKS. But mostly I've stopped bothering.

[tennisgurl]

At this point, the books and the shows have kind of just gone on their own paths, and are doing their own things. I can appreciate the books for what they are, and the show for what it is. There is still a part of me that has to yell "That wasn't in the book!" or "That was so much better in the book!", or even "This is so much better than in the book!". 

 

I just wonder, if they cut too much, will the end get a bit confusing? I`m all for trimming out some things, but I don't want any characters to be left with a nothing story line, but the writers don't want to get rid of them. And I`ll admit, I do get kind of sad when characters I liked get cut. Even if I know its for the best! 

[Advance35]

Agreed.  I've reconciled for the most part too but since the writers no the endgame and have gone on record saying they intend for all of the characters to end up the way they do in the book, if someone dies in the show, I assume that the mortal curtain will come down on them in the book as well.    Though GRRM recently said he's had ANOTHER light bulb idea about a character alive in the novels that are not/no longer in the show (I think that's his clumsy way of enticing interest/preference to his version of events).

 

Jojen Reed I expect to be a goner.  Grenn and Pyp as well.  I'll be curious to see if they reintroduce Gendry or if he was just a character we meet along the way who won't have an especially note-worthy fate. 

[Holmbo]

Agreed. I've reconciled for the most part too but since the writers no the endgame and have gone on record saying they intend for all of the characters to end up the way they do in the book, if someone dies in the show, I assume that the mortal curtain will come down on them in the book as well. Though GRRM recently said he's had ANOTHER light bulb idea about a character alive in the novels that are not/no longer in the show (I think that's his clumsy way of enticing interest/preference to his version of events).

Jojen Reed I expect to be a goner. Grenn and Pyp as well. I'll be curious to see if they reintroduce Gendry or if he was just a character we meet along the way who won't have an especially note-worthy fate.

I too will take the shows major events as book canon if it fits with everything else. Though with minor characters as Grenn and Pyp I'm not sure that them dying in the show means dying in the books. In the show they took over roles of other nights watch characters who died in the books.

[Winnief]

I don't look at the show as being canon per se, but I do think the *biggest* events we will see happen on the show to the main characters will be pretty much in line with the books.  I.E. who dies, how they die, who kills who, who marries who, and the ultimate fate of the IT and who's left standing at the end of the series would definitely be true to Martin's master plan.  If they write out fAegon and Arianne it tells me that fAegon is indeed a fraud and his 'reign' will be short and of little consequence.  (And that Arianne is likely to just ruin herself on him anyway.)  We all missed LSH, but it suggests that nothing she did was an absolute game changer or that couldn't be transferred to other characters.  I also find the fact there's been no mention of Roslin Frey/Tully's pregnancy on the show an ominous sign. 

 

Conversely the survival/story arc of other characters on the show hints at their importance in later books.  We wouldn't be bothering with DarkSansa if Sansa wasn't supposed to be a player in the days to come.  The show makes such a big thing about the Boltons being worried to find that the Stark boys are alive-and the fact they even included Rickon at all and then made Osha so prominent is a pretty clear indicator that Rickon  is going to return from Skagos/Last Hearth or wherever to Winterfell at some point.  Despite the speculation that LF is trying to poison SR in the books, its safe to say he survives a while longer yet, because on the show he's left in the trustworthy care of Bronze Yohn,  while LF is about to go to KL.  If they had any plans to have LF kill the kid this season, that wouldn't be happening because they'd need some build-up.  Shireen on the other hand...now there we have something to worry about.  And the fact that they made a point of showing the Blackfish escaped the Red Wedding makes me think he'll be back...someday.

[snakenax]

 

The show makes such a big thing about the Boltons being worried to find that the Stark boys are alive-and the fact they even included Rickon at all and then made Osha so prominent is a pretty clear indicator that Rickon  is going to return from Skagos/Last Hearth or wherever to Winterfell at some point.

While it is likely to happen, I do think the show pre-season 4 is in many ways a different animal than post-season 4. A lot fewer condensed plotlines, many more minor characters included(thinking on it, almost all the minor characters in the show come from the first three seasons), much fewer cut plotlines and very few new plotlines. I'm pretty sure until they were looking at season 4 and beyond and seeing the work they had to do that they were still planning at a fairly faithful adaption of the books and so a lot of season 1-3 has setup for characters and plotlines we may never see on the show. Though how much has actually been cut has yet to be seen, i'm kind of getting the feeling we'll likely see things cut from this season appear next season(Bran and the Iron Islands being the most obvious ones, since if they don't show up next season then they're effectively the most time wasting multi-season arc ever)..

Edited April 15, 2015 by snakenax

[Lady S.]

Bran's definitely coming back, but the ironborn stuff is less likely. I hope at least they do work YarAsha back in once Theon's escaped Winterfell, having that failed mission to the Dreadfort be the end after building up her concern for Theon way more than in the books would make that whole stupid sequence even more pointless and frustrating.

[Oscirus]

I wonder what, if anything could get Sansa to head back to Kings Landing.

 

I assume Littlefinger will eventually take her back there when he goes to claim the crown.

 

Which leads to my second theory. I know this is a little bit out there, but I believe the Valonqar is the man that Catelyn called little brother, Littlefinger. It would fit with the theme of Cersei creating her own enemies. I'm thinking once he takes care of her and her brood that he will become the king and attempt to make Sansa his queen. I'm not as sure on this part maybe 55-60 percent .

[Advance35]

I'm not convinced LF wants the Throne in the book.  He certainly doesn't think he'll be allowed  to control the Vale.   That's why he wants a puppet in either Robin or Harry.   In  the show I think his goal is much more nihilistic.   When Varys confronts him in Season 1 when LF is looking at the Throne, Varys says something like "picturing the most noble and prominent families kneeling to you while your on the throne?" and LF says "It's hard for people to bow when they don't have heads."

 

I think he probably HATES the Westeros system though he uses it to his advantage and sometimes I get the impression he wants to destroy ALL the Great Houses.   He's effectively taken out or caused the fall of Houses Stark, Arryn, Tully and Baratheon.   Each is barely hanging on by a thread.

 

In the book he seems to want to stay away from Kings Landing, trusting that the feud between the Lannisters and the Tyrells will ultimately destroy both.   In the show he's already making subtle moves against House Lannister.  Pulling The Vale into decieving the Iron Throne (by hiding Sansa).   

 

If Sansa survives this season on the show than I'll be sold on  her playing a big role in the finale of this saga (books),  If she ever turns on LF I don't think it'll be until the final book.

[The Mormegil]

Though GRRM recently said he's had ANOTHER light bulb idea about a character alive in the novels that are not/no longer in the show (I think that's his clumsy way of enticing interest/preference to his version of events).

 

IIRC that comment didn't specify that the character in question was dead on the show only that the way the characters story had been adapted on TV meant the Show could not use the twist/idea GRRM was going to.

 

If I had to guess I'd say he's talking about Sansa but it could be anyone really.

[Constantinople]

If they write out fAegon and Arianne it tells me that fAegon is indeed a fraud and his 'reign' will be short and of little consequence.  (And that Arianne is likely to just ruin herself on him anyway.) 

 

When you play the Game of Thrones, you win or you die.  Losers are, by definition, frauds and traitors.

 

If he loses, it makes no difference if Aegon truly is Aegon or if he's fAegon (unless he loses because people become convinced that he's fAegon).

 

Personally, I think it would be more interesting if GRRM leaves it up in the air.  After all, some claim that Perkin Warbeck truly was Edward IV's youngest son.

[Winnief]

I think fAegon's bonafides though, will get the ultimate test in the form of whether the dragons 'bond' with him or not....and that will also be key to proving the truth about Jon to Dany and everybody else really once and for all. 

 

I doubt the Iron Born will show up in person this season, but I am hoping we at least get a mention of the sudden unexpected death of Balon Greyjoy if for no other reason than to prove Mel's use of kings blood magic worked.  Maybe even have someone else wonder aloud who inherits after Balon raising the question of succession there.

[ElizaD]

At this point I expect Sansa to have the worst plot this season, with characters acting like idiots so the show can have her raped by Ramsay in Fake Arya's place, but after rewatching 5x01 I've started to feel sorry for Jaime. He hasn't developed the way I would have expected after season 3 seemed to have him on track for his redemption arc. While I dislike the term and think he's still a selfish person in AFFC/ADWD, he has nonetheless changed in ways that seasons 4-5 don't seem to be featuring at all. Jaime's introspection is gone - he's not moving forward, he seems to be moving back with his focus on Cersei.

 

The showrunners love the Lannisters (no flashbacks? let's break that rule for Cersei, Tywin is a villain? oh no, he's Lawful Neutral), but Jaime seems to be pretty clearly their least favorite Lannister. Back in season 2 when he killed his cousin and someone (showrunner? writer?) said it was to remind people that he's a monster, I thought that wasn't the most successful scene but it did kinda match the early ASOS Jaime who would have killed Brienne and didn't mourn his dead Frey cousin, and then season 3 was good for him. But season 4 was a mess. First he's desperate for Cersei's affection while she rejects him, then he rapes the "hateful woman", then he's back to longing looks but gives Brienne the sword, then he breaks his vows again and has reunion sex with Cersei when the conclusion of the ASOS relationship was him rejecting sex to honor the Kingsguard. Now he starts season 5 with Cersei accusing him of being a stupid man of action. Their book roles seem to have been swapped: Cersei acted aggressively and without thinking throughout AFFC, while Jaime had to learn to think and negotiate after losing his hand. It's possible that the Dorne material will allow him to show he can be a negotiator too, but I doubt the show will draw much attention to it (Jaime learning to use his golden hand as a weapon, returning to action, is more likely to be his cool moment). I don't know what the reason is: all I can think of is a combination of the stated dislike of themes (Jaime's being honor and knighthood), Jaime not being a favorite, Cersei being a favorite who has to be made to look more tragic/clever, and the showrunners wanting Jaime's likely murder of Cersei to come as a total shock so that he moves from seeking to regain her favor with the Myrcella rescue to killing her.

 

In the 5x02 trailer, Cersei again mentions burning things to the ground. Possible foreshadowing? Unlike the valonqar, it doesn't shout "this will happen" to non-readers.

[Pete Martell]

I saw some fan speculation over whether Theon would be in the scene where Ramsay rapes Sansa (as he was with Jeyne in the books), or if Myranda would take his place, but I guess it will still be Theon.

 

http://www.zap2it.com/blogs/game_of_thrones_alfie_allen_promises_terrible_season_5_event-2015-04

 

This sounds horrific. The worst part is that I still don't fully trust the show to not present this as some quasi-sexy event, even amidst the ugliness. 

[Constantinople]

I saw some fan speculation over whether Theon would be in the scene where Ramsay rapes Sansa (as he was with Jeyne in the books), or if Myranda would take his place, but I guess it will still be Theon.

 

http://www.zap2it.com/blogs/game_of_thrones_alfie_allen_promises_terrible_season_5_event-2015-04

 

This sounds horrific. The worst part is that I still don't fully trust the show to not present this as some quasi-sexy event, even amidst the ugliness.

If it's what they're hinting, I'm not sure how I'll react.  I'm not saying I'd swear off the show or I'd be metaphorically sick, thought I might be, but I would be pretty mother fucking angry at D&D.

Partly it's because Sansa is like a sister to the viewers (or given my age, a niece). She hasn't always been the nicest person, but you can chalk it up to youth. We've watched her grow up.

But it's also gratuitous

 

• Pushing Bran out of a window made sense
• Ned's execution made sense
• Renly's murder made sense, albeit by a method that was a tad deus ex machina
• The Red Wedding made sense
• Joffrey's murder made sense (the motive did; the plot itself seemed to complicated to work in real life)
• Oberyn's death made sense
• Tyrion's escape made sense. Even sneaking into the Hand's rooms made because even then Tyrion still wanted to know he wasn't accepted as a Lannister. It's not logical for a person to behave that way, but it's emotionally true.  Thus, Shae & Tywin's deaths made sense.
• Mance Rayder's death made sense

 

So as shocking or sad as those events were, they weren't gratuitous because the actions that led to them made sense.

But this makes no sense. For this to happen, Littlefinger must have suddenly ignorant and stupid and be willing to risk one of his prize jewels (Robin being the other). Plus, Sansa must be willing to leave the safety of the Vale. It's not enough to say that Littlefinger is taking Sansa somewhere where she'll be safe from Cersei.  If Varys can FedEx the wizard who castrated him from across the world, no place is particularly safe.  There's no reason to believe she'd be safer in Bolton country than the Vale.

 

That's why it's gratuitous. The actions that must precede this make no sense. Which is why, if what's being hinted at turns out to be true, it's particularly revolting on the part of D&D.

And after the fiasco last season of Jaime raping Cersei, I don't trust D&D either.

[Shanna]

God I hope this doesn't turn out like I fear.

It took me a couple seasons to warm back up to Sansa but now that I have if they do this I will be really really pissed.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Shanna

[Skeeter22]

The worst thing about it is that the show has a habit of making major changes and still going back to the book ending, even if it doesn't make sense for the show characters. If they do just plug Sansa into Jeyne's horrific abuse plot, I have no doubt they'll go right back into Sansa's plot as if it never happened.

[Lady S.]

I think fAegon's bonafides though, will get the ultimate test in the form of whether the dragons 'bond' with him or not....and that will also be key to proving the truth about Jon to Dany and everybody else really once and for all. 

What would the dragons care if he's a Blackfyre? That wouldn't mean he has any less dragon blood than Dany. But then I don't even think that was Quentyn's problem, he should have at least tried approaching a dragon one-on-one,  instead he tried to tame Viserion and lost sight of Rhaegal, who was the one who killed him.

 

Alfie's interview fits with what Iwan's lets slip and pretty much confirms Ramsay's "new plaything" is Sansa. I know I feel sick already. If this doesn't end in a premature death for Ramsay, then D&D truly are just in love with torture porn.

[Winnief]

The worst thing about it is that the show has a habit of making major changes and still going back to the book ending, even if it doesn't make sense for the show characters. If they do just plug Sansa into Jeyne's horrific abuse plot, I have no doubt they'll go right back into Sansa's plot as if it never happened.

 

That's my big fear too.  That they might just throw in some more unimaginable horror for the already traumatized Sansa-and then never deal with the psychological fallout of the whole thing, because it wouldn't have been part of Sansa's original story arc/destiny.  (Whatever that may be.) 

 

See I don't mind Sansa going to WF under false pretenses or even Sansa doing an arranged marriage solely to get the upper hand and/or help her brothers.  I can see her (like Osha with Theon in Season 2) deciding to do whatever it takes to get the job done-and no one would think any less of her for it.  As long as she was in control if you know what I mean.  But if we have to watch a girl we've practically seen grow up on screen become Ramsay's latest 'toy' for NO GODDAMN REASON...we'll if they thought the backlash from the Sept scene was bad they ain't seen nothing yet.

[Hecate7]

Yeah, if this is happening on the show, then probably in the books something just as bad happens soon, and it's Littlefinger's fault. Tyrion wouldn't havwe done this to Sansa. He might have been a bit preoccupied with himself, but he would never have escorted her to the worst people in the world, and then abandoned her, while he himself had any power or influence left.

 

OTOH, if Sansa can arrange the deaths of every single twig on the Bolton family tree, then Winterfell is hers under her fake name, too, and she can bide her time about coming out as the wanted regicide Sansa Stark.