S02.E12: 212

[taragel]

Right, but Margaret has never been such a kind and generous soul (that we saw) to believe she would want to pay for a wedding for her housekeeper's daughter. I mean, I just don't buy it with the way she dismissively addressed Luisa's mom in S1. DIdn't Helen rebuke her on that a few times too? Noah was definitely annoyed at the way they treated her and scolded Whitney specifically for basically saying "the maid will do it" about something for her.

 

Maybe if there'd been some narrative about Luisa before this season, if we'd seen that she was like really friendly with Helen because her mom was the housekeeper for years, or if Margaret and Luisa's mom had a particularly warm relationship. But they didn't, so I thought it strained credulity that they would even have the wedding at Margaret's house. Her swooping in to pay for a wedding at the place the groom owns is even more silly, IMO. Honestly, he owns the place, he could just cover it himself. 

 

[Cosmocrush]

Helen is a witch IMO, I don't like to use the "b" word, but that's what I really think she is.  She hit Scotty and wanted to frame Alison?  WTF?  Okay, I know she doesn't like Alison but to frame her for murder?  I detest Helen even more than I did before.  Helen is no better than the rest of them, no in fact she's worse because  none of them killed anybody.

I guess I saw Helen's motivation wasn't to necessarily frame Allison but to save Noah via reasonable doubt - although the result would be the same.  

Edited December 22, 2015 by Cosmocrush

[ScoobieDoobs]

Thank you! Poor Helen, innocently speeding down the street drunk and distracted. If Noah didn't insist on stopping, Helen would have just sped off, uncaring if the pedestrian was still alive and needing help. Helen had really grown on me this season, but she's supremely flawed just like the others. The way she worked with the attorney in a pre-meditated way to frame Alison. And the way she sashays into court with her lips pursed and nose in the air, knowing that she was responsible for this, just amazes me.

 

You know, I've been wanting to like Helen cuz I adore Maura, but this?  Ugh.  More than ugh.  Ew, ick, yuck, feh & blech, blech, blech.  OK, so let's get Helen's wonderful makeup (as a human being) straight, shall we?  If you get hit by Helen while she's driving drunk, just keep this little diddy in mind.  She'll mow you down & leave you for dead.  Nice gal, that Helen, eh?  Thanks for giving us yet another heartless self-absorbed asshole, Treem.

 

Alison: Is there damage to the car?

Noah: Not much. I gave it to a mechanic. He'll fix it for me in the morning.

Alison: What, you told him what happened?

Noah: No. I told him I hit a deer. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.

Alison: Shh. Don't cry. Don't cry.

Noah: I love you.

Alison: I love you, too.

Then Noah begins crying.

 

Thanks for this.  This is why I come here & not the stupid/annoying recappers.  Fuck you, recappers.  Anyhoo, nothing earth-shatteringly important to the ultimate storyline here, but good to know.  I like to hear what people are saying, Treem, without feeling like I'm 95 & going deaf.  But thanks for making me feel like I'm having a senior moment, Treem, when I'm not even 50.

Edited December 22, 2015 by ScoobieDoobs

[cardigirl]

Helen is a witch IMO, I don't like to use the "b" word, but that's what I really think she is.  She hit Scotty and wanted to frame Alison?  WTF?  Okay, I know she doesn't like Alison but to frame her for murder?  I detest Helen even more than I did before.  Helen is no better than the rest of them, no in fact she's worse because  none of them killed anybody

They all killed Scotty.

[Neurochick]

They all killed Scotty.

 

Interesting.  Actually, another way of looking at it is, being an active addict/alcoholic is really what got Scotty killed.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Neurochick

[GeminiDancer]

One thing I've noticed is that it felt like the drive after the hit was longer in Noah's POV than in Alison's. I don't recall Helen's reaction once they stopped the car in Noah's segment, but Alison's POV showed that Helen was clearly devastated at what happened. I'm wondering if Noah was actually putting words in Helen's mouth when she was saying that she hit a deer.

[Cosmocrush]

One thing I've noticed is that it felt like the drive after the hit was longer in Noah's POV than in Alison's. I don't recall Helen's reaction once they stopped the car in Noah's segment, but Alison's POV showed that Helen was clearly devastated at what happened. I'm wondering if Noah was actually putting words in Helen's mouth when she was saying that she hit a deer.

If I remember correctly, and I may not be, Helen's reactions were similar in both versions.   The car pulls over in the same spot and Noah gets out of the passenger seat.  In Noah's version Helen doesn't want to stop, insisting it was a deer but when Noah gets out of the car she cries, "No Noah, don't" reaching over the seat to try and stop him.  In Alison's version, we see Noah get out of the car with Helen leaning over the seat begging Noah, 'No Noah, don't! No!"  

[truthaboutluv]

Interesting.  Actually, another way of looking at it is, being an active addict/alcoholic is really what got Scotty killed.

 

While I'm not sure you can really implicate Noah, well until he aided in the cover-up, I do think there is a case to be made that both Alison and Helen were culpable in Scotty's death, assuming everything happened as Alison remembered it. Alison shoving Scotty into the road, whether or not she intended for him to get hurt, would be considered negligent and make her liable and hell if Helen had been sober, in some states or just with a good lawyer, she could get off.  

 

I remember a case where this guy had mental issues where he thought people were chasing him and he ran into the road on a busy highway and a man hit and killed him. The man got off because the jury ruled that it wasn't his fault. He was going at a normal speed and the guy suddenly jumped into the road with no time for him to react. And if Alison wasn't full of shit and Scotty really was trying to sexually assault her at the time, then that's her defense.

 

Now back to Helen, the problem on her end is that she was drunk so no matter the circumstances of how Scotty ended up suddenly in the road, she becomes culpable and liable, especially considering she already has a DUI on her record. So considering all of that, in essence, yeah Alison and Helen did both contribute to Scotty's death. If, once again Scotty really did try to assault Alison, then she is least culpable but now they've all lied and covered the whole thing up so they're all kind of fucked. Meanwhile, even if Alison may not be most culpable, I still think she's as much a bitch and evil as Helen for the fact that she's still lying to Cole abou this kid. So as I've been saying since mid-season, fuck her. 

[Constantinople]

You know, I've been wanting to like Helen cuz I adore Maura, but this?  Ugh.  More than ugh.  Ew, ick, yuck, feh & blech, blech, blech.  OK, so let's get Helen's wonderful makeup as a human being straight, shall we?  if you get hit by Helen while she's driving drunk, just keep this little diddy in mind.  She'll mow you down & leave you for dead.  Nice gal, that Helen, eh?  Thanks for giving us yet another heartless self-absorbed asshole, Treem.

Keeping in mind that we saw the accident from Noah's POV.

From Helen's POV

[loud crash]

Noah: What the fuck!

Helen: Oh dear

Noah: You hit a deer?

Helen: Oh dear

Noah: What the fuck are you doing?

Helen stops the car.

Noah: Why are you stopping?

Helen: Oh dear

Noah leaves the car and returns a few minutes later

Noah: It's not a deer. It's Scotty Lockhart, the man who statutorily raped and impregnated our daughter Whitney. I saw Alison too. She said she pushed Scotty. But no one will believe that Alison just happened to push Scotty into the road to defend her honor just as you took your eyes off the wheel. Not after what Scotty did. By the way, since we're divorced, this conversation is no longer covered by marital privilege.

Helen: Oh dear.

Noah: We've got to get out here. I'll drive the rest of the way (Helen and Noah switch places in the car).

[Neurochick]

I still think she's as much a bitch and evil as Helen for the fact that she's still lying to Cole abou this kid. So as I've been saying since mid-season, fuck her.

 

 

In a way I kind of agree because Cole wants to have children, but in another way I don't because he doesn't want them with Alison, he wants them with Luisa.

 

Alison did kind of tell Cole when she told him how old the child was.  Cole just did not get it, he didn't even say, "hey Alison, could that be my kid?  Not even a question."  

 

Also I think more people would be hurt if Alison told Cole.  I mean sure Noah already knows but how would Cole feel?  What good could come of it?   How would that make Luisa feel?  The only thing Cole did was fuck Alison, really.  A man isn't a father just because he screws a woman and gets her pregnant, he's a father because of what he does for the child AFTER the child is born.  

 

People like to say the truth shall set you free, and that's true most of the time, but other times it's best to keep quiet and hurt no one.

[Wilson Cat]

OK, I really don't have much to say about the finale, because unlike most of the posters here, I agree with the recappers that this is basically a stupid, shitty show.  Alison is a caricature of a human being, and thank god I've never known anyone as narcissistic as her in real life.  Except the writers then add a second, even MORE narcissistic caricature of a selfish jerk, Noah, and whoa......for me this was hate watching on a par with SMASH (and I didn't think I could ever hate watch a show with as much passion as I faithfully did that clusterfuck of a series).  But you know what redeemed it for me?  Scotty singing.  That was awesome.  It was like when Megan Hilty sang her gorgeous slowed-down version of Crazy Dreams in S1 of Smash, and it was all like, oh, please just do an entire show of this person singing.  The writers even managed to ruin  one character I actually liked, Helen, by making her guilty of the most heinous of deceits.  I hope Cole and Luisa live happily ever after, and that Joanie comes to live with them, and maybe Whitney, too, because she rocks.  She's a bitch, but a delightful one.  And knowing all that we do now about her parentage, of course she's a bitch. It is the only way to survive in that stupid family.

[Woody]

I think they go for the general ambience. I've always found it a little strange that the opening montage song is from the view point of the ocean - when that's how Gabriel died.

 

I see the opening montage song to be the view point of Allison in general.  She views herself as one who's sole purpose is to make waves.

[izabella]

Also I think more people would be hurt if Alison told Cole.  I mean sure Noah already knows but how would Cole feel?  What good could come of it?   How would that make Luisa feel?  The only thing Cole did was fuck Alison, really.  A man isn't a father just because he screws a woman and gets her pregnant, he's a father because of what he does for the child AFTER the child is born.

 

 

Sure, but Allison isn't giving Cole a chance to be a father to Joanie since she won't tell him that he is a father.  How is that Cole's fault?  I have no doubt he'd WANT to be a father to Joanie.

 

And, Joanie NEEDS to have a relationship with her father.  Allison is preventing her from knowing Cole.

People like to say the truth shall set you free, and that's true most of the time, but other times it's best to keep quiet and hurt no one.

 

Everyone gets hurt by keeping this secret, Joanie most of all. 

[truthaboutluv]

Also I think more people would be hurt if Alison told Cole.  I mean sure Noah already knows but how would Cole feel?  What good could come of it?   How would that make Luisa feel?  The only thing Cole did was fuck Alison, really.  A man isn't a father just because he screws a woman and gets her pregnant, he's a father because of what he does for the child AFTER the child is born.

 

 

Yes and Cole DID NOT get that chance because Alison and I guess later Noah, decided to play God in his life and decide FOR him that it's best he not get to raise his child. Yes Cole wants a child with Luisa but if Alison's memory of their conversation before his wedding was accurate, his exact words were simply that he just thought and hoped he would have a second chance to be a parent again. Which is understandable for the very tragic circumstances in which he lost his first child. 

 

In other words, I don't buy for one second that Cole would so upset that his baby was with Alison that it justifies him not being told. Yes it would not be ideal but I think he'd just be glad to have a child again. But we don't yet know because once again, that bitch decided he didn't deserve to know. I will NEVER justify or excuse or accept Alison had any justification or right for what she did to Cole.

 

Also, HAD Alison told Cole right from the start of her pregnancy where she likely knew there was a possibility he could be the father, all those lives would not have been as destroyed as they may be now. Because for one thing, Cole had only JUST started dating Luisa when Alison found out she was pregnant. They could have worked through the situation right from the start. But no, again she chose to lie to hold onto the loser she cheated with for the relationship that was practically a joke by that point. 

 

And I'm sorry, I find it unfair how Cole is somehow judged or even blamed because he didn't put it together or ask if the child might be his. Like his not doing so is proof he doesn't want his child or is fine not knowing. As I've said, I can absolutely believe that Cole never asked Alison about Joanie being his, because he probably thinks that if she was, Alison would let him know that. How stupid of him right? Why would Cole EVER think that Alison, a woman he's known his whole life, loved and shared a child with would keep something like that from him and hurt him that badly? Yeah they slept together but she was clearly involved with Noah and went back to him so it's not crazy or strange in any way in my opinion that Cole completely accepts that Joanie is Noah's. 

 

Alison is a selfish bitch. She didn't tell Cole because it doesn't work FOR HER, not because it has SHIT to do with not wanting to blow up his life or affect his relationship with Luisa. This is a woman who had no issues pursuing and getting involved with a man with a wife and four children. And I'm sorry, I think it is a selfish cop out to pull the "best to just lie and not hurt anyone." Alison keeping Cole from his child IS hurting him whether he is aware of it or not. It is selfish and awful and I cannot wait for her shit to come back on her next season.

Edited December 22, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[GeminiDancer]

 

Also I think more people would be hurt if Alison told Cole.  I mean sure Noah already knows but how would Cole feel?  What good could come of it?   How would that make Luisa feel?  The only thing Cole did was fuck Alison, really.  A man isn't a father just because he screws a woman and gets her pregnant, he's a father because of what he does for the child AFTER the child is born.

 

Shouldn't that be a choice for Cole to make? Shouldn't he get to decide if he wants to be a father to Joanie? It's very clear that he wants to be a father, and Alison is knowingly denying him that opportunity to be the father he's always wanted to be. That's not right, and Alison is heinous for it. She's cuckolded him, she's a responsible party for his brother's death along with covering it up, and she's keeping his child away from him. How many more ways can she hurt him?

[Ellaria]

I assume that "telling Cole" will be a big part of the S3 story line. With Scotty finally dead and buried, the knowledge of Joanie's paternity rests with Noah and Alison. (And Gottlief, of course, who I am hoping will go back to practicing divorce law and stay away from criminal defense.) I don't think that we have seen the last of Oscar (yay!) and, since he heard Scotty's "our baby" comment, he may be around to continue tormenting Alison (double yay!). Cole's glance at Alison/Joanie at Noah's arraignment could suggest that he has suspicions about Joanie. Maybe he, too, will steal a pacifier and get it tested. Regardless, I want Cole to act and prevent Alison from continuing with her selfishness.

 

Overall, this is a collection of fairly miserable people. A display of remorse/regret from Alison and Helen is in order...and not because they nearly got caught but because they caused the death of another human being. I'm probably most interested in Helen's reaction once the trial is concluded. Her air of "superiority" is starting to annoy me along with her tag-along doctor boyfriend.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Ellaria Sand

[taragel]

With all the discussion about Helen's reaction above, I think this episode should actually have been split three ways between Noah, Alison and Helen POVs. Her role in the crime was way too large to omit her perpsective on it entirely the way they did. It's possible they could show it at the start of next season but that's a bit too little too late IMO. 

[cuppingmaster]

Unsure if this has been brought up here or not, but it's been bugging me.  Here goes:

 

In S2E8, Helen steals the pacifier for DNA evidence at Martin's wrestling match at Gottlieb's budge.  The baby there is stroller-aged (not walking yet), and previously to the finale, is suggested to be Joanie.  However, in the finale, Joanie is 18 months old (and now known to be Cole's baby).  We also know from previous flash forwards (post accident, pre trial) that Alison is pushing a stroller with a baby in the courthouse.  

 

So, we're left with a problem: genetic testing on a heretofore unknown second Alison-Noah baby would be worthless to determine Joanie's paternity.  However, if we assume the baby at the wrestling match is Joanie, then Helen went back in time to get a sample of Joanie's DNA when she was much younger than 18 months old at Gottlieb's suggestion (at a time when Joanie would have been older than 18 months).  How can this be reconciled with the show's admittedly wonky timeline at this point?

[Constantinople]

Before Whitney mows down all of the adults in a hail of gunfire in the Season 3 finale -- if Whitney's going to take out Noah, Helen and Alison, a kind of thematic consistency requires that Cole go too -- I want Cole to acknowledge that Joanie as his daughter so that she can inherit both her mother and father's share of the Lobster Roll.

[Former Nun]

And knowing all that we do now about her parentage, of course she's a bitch. It is the only way to survive in that stupid family.

 

 

This sentence is about Whitney.  Guess I must have snoozed at some point.  What do we know "about her parentage?"

[nara]

I LOVED Scott's interpretation of House of rising sun.

 

So how exactly are Alison and Noah gonna go from here to the night of his arrest? When Jeffries and the policemen knocked on the door they seemed to be a happily married couple but I don't see how that could be possible after all we've seen in the last couple of episodes. I bet the writers are simply gonna skip that part.

 

My interpretation:  whereas Gabriel's death tore Alison and Cole apart, this tragedy brought Noah and Alison together.  It made them forget about their differences and cling to each other.

 

I never could stand Helen and now I know why.  She killed someone and tried to put it on Alison because she took the pacifier.  What a horrible, entitled shrew!

 

I didn't think Helen was specifically trying to frame Alison, but creating enough doubt about Noah's guilt.  She may have assumed that because Alison was not guilty and not there at the time of Scotty's death (to Helen's knowledge) there would not be any real evidence against Alison.  Therefore, she could help Noah without really hurting Alison. She may have also been really curious about the paternity question--both from a certain amount of cattiness and from the perspective of hoping that Noah and Alison would break up.  We know that, in spite of everything that has happened, she still loves Noah, so I do think that her curiosity is understandable.

 

And I think both Helen and Margaret attended the wedding to show that they're not too snobbish to go to a wedding of the help's.

I don't think they did it just for show.  I think it's natural for Margaret, in particular, to take an interest in Luisa, a girl she's probably known since she was born.  Helen would likewise have been still living with her parents when Luisa was born, and so has known her all her life too. Also, although I think that they are aware of the class distinctions between the Butlers and their maid, it reminds me of the relationship between the Crawleys of Downton Abbey and their servants--the classes are definitely separate, but there is real affection between them.  Lady Mary and Anna, for example, are very close.  Now, there is bad blood between Helen and the Lockharts due to Scotty/Whitney, but Cole was very nice to Martin before that all happened.  Also, everyone in Montauk seems to be aware of Alison and Cole's tragedy, so perhaps there is some community spirit in celebrating the fact that his life is rebounding.

 

 

Right, but Margaret has never been such a kind and generous soul (that we saw) to believe she would want to pay for a wedding for her housekeeper's daughter. I mean, I just don't buy it with the way she dismissively addressed Luisa's mom in S1. DIdn't Helen rebuke her on that a few times too? Noah was definitely annoyed at the way they treated her and scolded Whitney specifically for basically saying "the maid will do it" about something for her.

 

Maybe if there'd been some narrative about Luisa before this season, if we'd seen that she was like really friendly with Helen because her mom was the housekeeper for years, or if Margaret and Luisa's mom had a particularly warm relationship. But they didn't, so I thought it strained credulity that they would even have the wedding at Margaret's house. Her swooping in to pay for a wedding at the place the groom owns is even more silly, IMO. Honestly, he owns the place, he could just cover it himself. 

 

I think that there is some part of Margaret's generosity that is coming from missing having people on whom she can shower her largess.  IIRC, she spoiled Whitney with money and other stuff and she was also openhanded with Helen.  Helen is finally saying no to stuff and Whitney is off in her own world.  So now, she is focusing on her maid.  

 

On other stuff, did we see Noah or Helen even react to the sight of Scotty when he arrived at the reception?  I feel like they should have had a noticeable, negative reaction to his presence.

Also, (4 pages of posts later) I cannot remember why Alison was walking on the road.  Isn't she staying right above the Lobster Roll?  After dropping that bombshell on Noah, it doesn't seem likely that they would stay in the same room at the End.  And if they were, why wouldn't she just drive there with him? 

 

Edited for clarity.

Edited December 23, 2015 by nara

[briochetwist]

My interpretation:  whereas Gabriel's death tore Alison and Cole apart, this tragedy brought Noah and Alison together.  It made them forget about their differences and cling to each other.

 

 

I don't think it did anything other than send them into self-preservation mode. Their relationship is over, they married so they don't have to testify against each other.

[cuppingmaster]

I just can't get past how screwy the timeline is. Noah and Alison aren't married by the time of Cole's wedding and yet, they're married during the present? When the hell would they have decided to that? How many days could there have been between the Jeffries investigation and them getting married?

 

 

I assume that's what next season is - post-accident and the trial.  That said, this show skips through months at a time.  Joanie was just born a few episodes ago!  I assumed that several months passed between the accident and Jeffries probing Noah, enough time for a Noah-Alison courthouse wedding (perhaps before he jets off to Paris for his next book)

[Duke2801]

I enjoyed the finale very much - but I had never stopped enjoying the show as a whole (though admittedly I liked Season 1 slightly more). Very satisfying tying up of many loose ends, while still keeping the audience (well, me, anyway) intrigued and wanting more.  It's funny, even though I'm far from a hate-watcher, I actually enjoy the recaps here! I guess I don't look at them as true "recaps" but more so just some sarcastic commentary/banter. 

 

QuoteWhat if Scotty never got killed? Would Noah and Alison even still be together? Is this the only reason they are together?

 

 

I think the show emphatically implied that the answers to your last 2 questions are NO and YES. lol Noah's "I never want to see you again" made it clear - to me - that they would have broken up if Scotty hadn't gone and gotten himself murdered.

 

izabella, on 21 Dec 2015 - 12:37 AM, said:izabella, on 21 Dec 2015 - 12:37 AM, said:

That really struck me as well.  It also affects the timeline a bit.  In Noah's version, it's daylight when he goes off with Helen to the beach, and they go from the beach into the car to drive home.  In Allison's version, Noah is there with her at night when Scotty is singing.  So when did Noah go off with Helen?  How was Scotty in the boat on the side of the road, when Allison left him still singing at the Lobster Roll?

 

All good questions. I mean, if a crazy drunk gets up and starts making an awko speech and then starts loudly belting out "House of the Rising Sun"... you remember that. I found it odd that only Alison included it in her narrative.  Now, if that had happened when Noah and Helen were off flirting it up, then that would made sense--but since Alison remembers not only Noah being there - but choosing that moment to tell him about Joanie... then... well, WTF?

 

Speaking of Scottie's song, that was the first and only time I ever found him attractive.  While he's objectively a handsome man, the character was such a slimeball that it was nearly impossible for me to see him as such.  But that song was hot.

 

Skeeter22, on 21 Dec 2015 - 10:15 AM, said:Skeeter22, on 21 Dec 2015 - 10:15 AM, said:

I hope season 3 is about the Lockharts' wrongful death lawsuit against Noah. If this series doesn't end with Cherry living in Noah and Alison' s apartment with "Master of the House" playing in the background, then why did I ever bother watching this nonsense?

 

Fuck Cherry and her enabling, drug-empire mom ass. Her sons didn't end up with issues coming out the wazoo for no reason. I mean, I love me some Cole, but dude was (and maybe is, to some degree) sort of a mess. So, yeah, Cherry deserves pretty much any shit that came her way. 

Edited December 22, 2015 by Duke2801

[grumpypanda]

Unsure if this has been brought up here or not, but it's been bugging me. Here goes:

In S2E8, Helen steals the pacifier for DNA evidence at Martin's wrestling match at Gottlieb's budge. The baby there is stroller-aged (not walking yet), and previously to the finale, is suggested to be Joanie. However, in the finale, Joanie is 18 months old (and now known to be Cole's baby). We also know from previous flash forwards (post accident, pre trial) that Alison is pushing a stroller with a baby in the courthouse.

So, we're left with a problem: genetic testing on a heretofore unknown second Alison-Noah baby would be worthless to determine Joanie's paternity. However, if we assume the baby at the wrestling match is Joanie, then Helen went back in time to get a sample of Joanie's DNA when she was much younger than 18 months old at Gottlieb's suggestion (at a time when Joanie would have been older than 18 months). How can this be reconciled with the show's admittedly wonky timeline at this point?

I went back and rewatched the wrestling match scene and your right, the baby in the stroller looked tiny. We couldn't see her face but judging from her arms and legs she appeared to be about six months old. At that point in time Joanie would have to be around two years old because it's right before the trial.

Since the baby is obviously supposed to be Joanie I assume the writers know nothing about babies or they think that the audience is dumb and won't notice that the age of the baby is way off.

[JenE4]

Unsure if this has been brought up here or not, but it's been bugging me. Here goes:

In S2E8, Helen steals the pacifier for DNA evidence at Martin's wrestling match at Gottlieb's budge. The baby there is stroller-aged (not walking yet), and previously to the finale, is suggested to be Joanie. However, in the finale, Joanie is 18 months old (and now known to be Cole's baby). We also know from previous flash forwards (post accident, pre trial) that Alison is pushing a stroller with a baby in the courthouse.

So, we're left with a problem: genetic testing on a heretofore unknown second Alison-Noah baby would be worthless to determine Joanie's paternity. However, if we assume the baby at the wrestling match is Joanie, then Helen went back in time to get a sample of Joanie's DNA when she was much younger than 18 months old at Gottlieb's suggestion (at a time when Joanie would have been older than 18 months). How can this be reconciled with the show's admittedly wonky timeline at this point?

Yes! Why the heck did they flash forward SO much that it no longer makes sense?! I thought the same thing about the courthouse scene when they said Joanie is 18 months at the time of the accident. She was probably also 18 months at the courthouse, and it would reasonably take a year or two for all of that investigation to take place and for it to be at the point where the defendant is on trial. they skipped TWO YEARS this season, which would make sense that the trial would happen by then. But, nope, let's make the MURDER two years in the future for some unknown reason and the entire investigation/trial can wrap up in, oh, a couple of weeks after that?! Maybe Joanie was supposed to be like 3 in the courthouse, but I swear she still looked like a year and a half to me.

[cuppingmaster]

Since the baby is obviously supposed to be Joanie I assume the writers know nothing about babies or they think that the audience is dumb and won't notice that the age of the baby is way off.

 

 

Bad casting perhaps, but it's deeply unsatisfying if that's indeed the answer.  It's not like 2 years old vs. 3 years old or something - no one would know.  But there's a huge difference between 6 months and nearly 2.  

[cuppingmaster]

Yes! Why the heck did they flash forward SO much that it no longer makes sense?! I thought the same thing about the courthouse scene when they said Joanie is 18 months at the time of the accident.

 

 

It's possible there are some serious curveballs in S3.  Like, that baby was some second baby.  I'd at least prefer the explanation that the audience doesn't know anything about genetic testing and you can tell paternity of a sibling from the DNA of a different sibling. It's a whole lot better than the other explanations.

[nara]

Bad casting perhaps, but it's deeply unsatisfying if that's indeed the answer.  It's not like 2 years old vs. 3 years old or something - no one would know.  But there's a huge difference between 6 months and nearly 2.  

It might be an American Sniper-like situation in which the baby (babies, actually, IIRC) that we cast got sick and they ended up using a baby doll.  It was so obviously a fake baby that they were laughed at mercilessly for doing that.  Perhaps whoever played Joannie in the present was not available so they substituted a random baby because we didn't see the child's face in that scene.

[Ellaria]

On other stuff, did we see Noah or Helen even react to the sight of Scotty?  I feel like they should have had a noticeable, negative reaction to his presence.

Also, (4 pages of posts later) I cannot remember why Alison was walking on the road.  Isn't she staying right above the Lobster Roll?  After dropping that bombshell on Noah, it doesn't seem likely that they would stay in the same room at the End.  And if they were, why wouldn't she just drive there with him? 

 

We saw Noah get out of the car and run over to Scotty's body. He was noticeably upset. We didn't see Helen react - other than to try and prevent Noah from getting out of the car. Helen does look contrite once they leave the scene and head back to her mother's house.

 

No explanation was given for why Alison was ambling along on the dark road. I assume that she was walking to The End to meet Noah. However, there are problems with that assumption: Noah presumably leaves TLR after her confession during Scotty's song and, at some point, runs into Helen. So, without any further interaction with Noah, she decides that their romantic evening at The End is still on. Really? She wouldn't expect Noah to have any reaction to the news? And of course she walks in the dark without a hand bag, cell phone or flashlight.

 

All good questions. I mean, if a crazy drunk gets up and starts making an awko speech and then starts loudly belting out "House of the Rising Sun"... you remember that. I found it odd that only Alison included it in her narrative.  Now, if that had happened when Noah and Helen were off flirting it up, then that would made sense--but since Alison remembers not only Noah being there - but choosing that moment to tell him about Joanie... then... well, WTF?

 

The differences in their POV about certain circumstances are startling, especially where/when the paternity reveal occurred, Noah's reaction and his meet-up with Helen.

 

One detail that is bothering me: in Alison's POV, Noah tells her that he brought their damaged car to the mechanic. If so, how did they get home to NYC? We know that they cancelled their reservation at The End. 

[nara]

We saw Noah get out of the car and run over to Scotty's body. He was noticeably upset. We didn't see Helen react - other than to try and prevent Noah from getting out of the car. Helen does look contrite once they leave the scene and head back to her mother's house.

 

No explanation was given for why Alison was ambling along on the dark road. I assume that she was walking to The End to meet Noah. However, there are problems with that assumption: Noah presumably leaves TLR after her confession during Scotty's song and, at some point, runs into Helen. So, without any further interaction with Noah, she decides that their romantic evening at The End is still on. Really? She wouldn't expect Noah to have any reaction to the news? And of course she walks in the dark without a hand bag, cell phone or flashlight.

 

Sorry, I should have been clearer.  I meant their reaction when he showed up at the reception, not after he was hit.  Surely, seeing the guy who knocked up their daughter would have stood out in Noah's POV and even in Alison's he didn't react that much.

 

Regarding Alison's walk, I'm not sure we've seen the end of that.  There is something suspicious there IMO.

[Ellaria]

Sorry, I should have been clearer.  I meant their reaction when he showed up at the reception, not after he was hit.  Surely, seeing the guy who knocked up their daughter would have stood out in Noah's POV and even in Alison's he didn't react that much.

 

I don't think that we see Scotty in Noah's POV so neither Noah or Helen saw him. Also, we never actually see Noah and Helen at the reception after the ceremony.

[ElTVaddict]

I am very confused regarding the timeline.

 

 We have the last episode of the first season: Noah and Allison in domestic bliss when he was arrested. This after the revelation that he wasn't Joanie's father. I can't believe for a second Noah would take this news and stay with Allison after she cheated on him. He is to selfish to accept this, he's the man and how dare her cheat on him. When did Noah and Allison get married?

 

I had sympathy for Allison the first season, being that I lost a child also. I do understand that in the lost of child some parents break-up, luckily for us it brought us closer together. It may also be that my child had a long illness and we just kind of wrapped our arms around her and each other to help support her and keep her strong. In Allison and Cole's case maybe the marriage wasn't strong to begin with to endure such a tragedy. She was sleeping with Oliver at that time too.

 

Still totally unfair that Cole has no idea that his a father. This being the one thing he wants more than life itself.

[ScoobieDoobs]

They all killed Scotty.

 

OK, I could buy it.  Kind of like the end of Murder on the Orient Express?  We've already seen what Helen & Alison did.  Helen mowed him down & Alison pushed him in front of an oncoming car.  Alrighty, who's next?  How about when Noah was checking out Scotty's body, he gave him a few whacks of his own, with some broken tree branches, which looked to be all over there.  Then Whitney pops out of nowhere (maybe from a $200 Uber ride, cuz she does do that) & whacks Scotty with an oar from the rowboat.  Then Margaret comes out of her passing limo & force feeds Scotty fistfuls of Xanax & whatever other happy pills she's got on hand.  Am I missing anyone else?  Luisa isn't motivated enough to bump off Scotty and I have a hard time believing Cole would kill his own brother.

 

Are ya listening, Treem?  Get cracking.  Next season won't write itself, but we'll help.

[truthaboutluv]

In Allison and Cole's case maybe the marriage wasn't strong to begin with to endure such a tragedy. She was sleeping with Oliver at that time too.

 

 

Do you mean Oscar? Because I don't think Alison was sleeping with Oscar. As is usual with Alison, Oscar was sexually inappropriate towards her and really sexually harassing her, since he was her boss but I think we were supposed to believe she was never interested. She slept with him the one time when she'd already started her affair with Noah. 

[Diane12251]

I totally agree that Noah and Alison got married because of the accident; otherwise, I think they would have broken up.  The accident seemed to draw them back together, probably out of self-preservation.  I'm not sure whether this has been brought up before, but I think it's possible that Helen doesn't even know that Alison was at the scene or that Alison pushed Scotty into the road.  It's very possible that Noah never told her.

 

All in all, I thought it was a very good finale - very powerful.  Although there are obvious questions about the timeline and whose perspective was actual reality, I think it's a mixture.  I don't see how it's possible that Noah was there when Scotty sang - I think he spent the rest of the afternoon with Helen after Alison dropped the baby bomb on him.  And I think there's a couple of hours between when Scotty sang and when Alison saw him on the side of the road.  Someone said something about why was Alison on the road, going toward the End, but that's where her and Noah were going to spend the night, so she was probably going there to try to make-up with him.  And I think the way to Helen's mother's house goes by The End so that's why Noah and Helen were there.

 

Of course, the one thing that seemed unbelievable was Noah's "confession" at the end.  But he could have been doing it to see if he could get either Helen or Alison to come to his defense and take that decision out of his hands.  I do think he's too egotistical to "fall on the sword" like that for anything but a selfish reason.  I also think that him carrying on the charade of being Joanie's father is selfish - he left Helen to be with Alison so can't admit that he made a mistake, preferring to forgive Alison for cheating on him with Cole rather than lose face.

 

Can't wait for next season!!

[Constantinople]

They all killed Scotty.

 

OK, I could buy it.  Kind of like the end of Murder on the Orient Express?

Spoiler!

Just kidding

 

We've already seen what Helen & Alison did.  Helen mowed him down & Alison pushed him in front of an oncoming car.  Alrighty, who's next?  How about when Noah was checking out Scotty's body, he gave him a few whacks of his own, with some broken tree branches, which looked to be all over there.  Then Whitney pops out of nowhere (maybe from a $200 Uber ride, cuz she does do that) & whacks Scotty with an oar from the rowboat.  Then Margaret comes out of her passing limo & force feeds Scotty fistfuls of Xanax & whatever other happy pills she's got on hand.  Am I missing anyone else?

The dilettantes whose desire to meet, greet, flash and flaunt in the "right" places results in stratospheric real estate prices in Montauk, thereby forcing the locals to compromise themselves to hold on to their legacy or be kicked off their family lands from rising real estate taxes. Once the worship of Adam Smith's invisible hand pushes them down that road, it's only a matter of time before they succumb, their torment made even worse when that same invisible hand showers money and applause on an outsider for telling a thinly, fictionalized version of their story.

I blame society.

Society killed Scotty Lockhart.

Edited December 23, 2015 by Constantinople

[hoodooznoodooz]

I wonder if we're going to find out in the next season that Cole was not Gabriel's biological father. . . .

[Cosmocrush]

I see the opening montage song to be the view point of Allison in general.  She views herself as one who's sole purpose is to make waves.

I did too but I see her as reacting to the waves rather than creating them.  In fact I see her as almost completely reactionary this season for sure.   I feel like we really don't know her, despite all the Alison versions.   

 

 

My interpretation:  whereas Gabriel's death tore Alison and Cole apart, this tragedy brought Noah and Alison together.  It made them forget about their differences and cling to each other.

[snip]

...Also, (4 pages of posts later) I cannot remember why Alison was walking on the road.  Isn't she staying right above the Lobster Roll?  After dropping that bombshell on Noah, it doesn't seem likely that they would stay in the same room at the End.  And if they were, why wouldn't she just drive there with him? 

 I agree about Scotty's death bring Noah and Allison together - they were best when they were keeping a secret, like their affair.   I'm not sure that's a great reason for staying together but I also believe they love each other.  In Noah's version he told her he thought she was "the great love of his life" right before he told her he never wanted to see her again, which by the way was the dumbest line ever. 

 

I have no idea why Alison was out walking but we know she likes to walk everywhere.  Maybe she just needed to get away and clear her head but why not the beach?  Why some dark road at night?  

 

 

One detail that is bothering me: in Alison's POV, Noah tells her that he brought their damaged car to the mechanic. If so, how did they get home to NYC? We know that they cancelled their reservation at The End. 

 

Good catch. Maybe they caught a ride from Helen?  

Edited December 23, 2015 by Cosmocrush

[Pallas]

Noah and Alison are trapped together in remorse, in ways similar to Alison and Cole, after Gabriel died. But among the many differences: each privately believes that he or she is the one more responsible for Scotty's death. 

Alison is also, of course, guilty about conceiving Joanie with Cole, and lying to Noah about it for two years. Even more than she feels guilty, though, she is terrified of what she fears is the punishment due her: for losing Gabriel; for being unfaithful to Cole, then Noah; for deceiving Noah, then Cole; for distancing herself from Joanie, and for what she may see as her repeated role in Scotty's death. She told Cole about the foreclosure, partnered with him to buy the restaurant, helped instigate the brothers' fight at Cole's reception, and repeatedly failed to talk Scotty down, that day and throughout the summer as he called her: all before she shoved him into traffic.

Of course she has good reason to blame Scotty and not herself for everything to do with him. Still, what she knows for sure is that her family members tend to leave or die, and what she feels is shame. It's true that Alison often sees herself as a victim, but most of all, I think, she sees herself as the perp -- and acts on that. Acts from her guilt, and feral panic. 

Noah will marry Alison in a triumph of experience over hope, and to silence her: to save Helen from what she did, and both Helen and himself from what he did to protect her. "She's the mother of my children," he tells the wife he knows is not. Alison will marry Noah in penance, and to silence her shame. They might both find some peace in that.

[JenE4]

Good catch. Maybe they caught a ride from Helen?

Not sure why they would leave their car there and then have to go back for it. Did they tell Det. Jeffries that they went back to the city...when they didn't think he found out about their car damage? Otherwise it would make sense that they would stay in Allison's apartment over the Lobster Roll until the car was fixed.

[RedheadZombie]

 It's true that Alison often sees herself as a victim, but most of all, I think, she sees herself as the perp -- and acts on that. Acts from her guilt, and feral panic. 

 

I think you're right about this.  I know the popular belief is that Alison is a sociopath who coldly goes about destroying lives with no remorse.  But I see Alison as someone who blames herself for everything.  I don't necessarily think she sees herself as a victim, I think it's more that she thinks she brings this out in people.  She may have asked Cole why he didn't watch Gabriel that one time, but it's clear to me that she has always blamed herself.  And I'm sure Cherry has made sure that Alison blamed herself, no way did one of her perfect baby boys share responsibility.  Narcissists lacking remorse don't cut themselves, attempt suicide, or engage in other self-destructive behavior.

 

And if it was me with Scotty on the road that night, there's no way my first reaction would be, "I pushed him".  I don't care if Scotty didn't attempt to rape her - although I believe he did.  He thinks she's a slut, he holds her more responsible than his own brother for the business deal, and he wanted to punish her and put her in her place.  But even if he was just following her and continuing to harass her, if he was violating her personal space, I see absolutely no problem shoving him away.  At the auction, Scotty broke that bottle, and Cole sure acted like he thought Scotty was going to come at him with it.  And that was Cole's version.  In both Alison's and Noah's version, the visibility on the road was so poor and everything happened so fast, that there couldn't have been any pre-meditation.  I would have said he was attacking me/harassing me/in my face, and I was defending myself.  But she simply said, "I pushed him", which places all guilt on herself.

 

Everything about Alison has been about self-destruction.  From her part in the drug ring, the chronic cutting, attempted suicide, hate sex with Oscar.  When she was in the town where Noah was writing, I think the scene in which she was riding her bike and kept trying to ride with her hands off was self-destructive as well.  And where some see her as playing victim with her mouth gaping open, I see a person who's unable or unwilling to defend herself.  The tree sex with Noah.  Years of comments from Cherry and Oscar.  Who would put up with that BS?  Someone who thinks that's what they deserve.  Even her comment to Noah that she's done a lot of horrible things that he doesn't know about.  That was before Joanie was conceived, and Noah already knew about the drug ring and the infidelity.  I think it was such a contrast with Noah who thinks he was fairly perfect before the infidelity.  I want to know more about Alison's life when she was still with Athena.  I really think she shows evidence of chronic sexual abuse.

 

For the first part of the episode, it looked like Alison was finally in a good place.  She was working on something that she was passionate about, and seemed fulfilled by it.  She was acting independently of the man in her life and not using sex to drown out her feelings.  When Noah seemed disapproving she didn't immediately offer to abandon everything to please him.  Then the Joanie revelation happened, along with the plot contrivance that she's away from Joanie 3/7 days, and it was all ruined.

 

I found Scotty really compelling this episode.  When he first took over the mic, I thought he was channeling manically weird Tom Cruise.  But when he started singing, I couldn't get Jon Hamm out of my head.  I wonder if any of it was deliberate by the actor.

[Neurochick]

I didn't think Helen was specifically trying to frame Alison, but creating enough doubt about Noah's guilt.  She may have assumed that because Alison was not guilty and not there at the time of Scotty's death (to Helen's knowledge) there would not be any real evidence against Alison.  Therefore, she could help Noah without really hurting Alison. She may have also been really curious about the paternity question--both from a certain amount of cattiness and from the perspective of hoping that Noah and Alison would break up.  We know that, in spite of everything that has happened, she still loves Noah, so I do think that her curiosity is understandable.

 

 

But according to Noah's version, didn't he tell Helen that Joanie wasn't his?  When they were in the beach he told Helen, "and the thing is I never even wanted Joanie."  So I'm like WTF Helen?

 

I could not stand Scotty, he was a typical active addict, "poor me, poor me, pour me a drink."  He blamed Cole and Alison for his failings when in reality his failings were because he's an addict.  And he chose to take that first drink, it's the first drink that gets you drunk.  Scotty was stone cold sober and he picked up a drink and drank it.  If it were me, his ass would have been kicked out right then and there.  He only got clean because he wanted to own the Lobster Roll; Scotty probably never even thought he was an addict.  

[SlackerInc]

I got curious and watched the Scotty scene, and it reminded me of something out of David Lynch's imagination, Blue Velvet or Twin Peaks.  Pretty cool effect.

 

A funny coincidence: If anyone has seen the film Georgia, which stars Mare Winningham, there's a scene in the movie where Jennifer Jason Leigh, playing Mare's sister, goes onstage at a club and sings an absolutely embarrassing, excruciating version of some song that I cannot recall. It goes on and on and on, and just gets worse and worse, and finally Mare has to go up onstage and rescue her by taking over the song and bringing it to a merciful conclusion. 

 

Anyway, I was kind of hoping that Cherry would do that to Scotty. It would have amused me.

 

Great movie!

 

Not to be a downer on the whole "why didn't they just..." line of thinking, but every show and movie and book ever could pretty much be solved without any hoopla if the protagonist just talked to someone about what's going on. If they immediately called the police or Alison was upfront about Joanie, then we wouldn't have a story. Is it unnecessarily convoluted to get us where we are? Yeah. But without it, we wouldn't have this entire plot line.

 

And that would be a bad thing?  Even back when I really loved the show overall, the police investigation part of it was the only complaint I had.

 

Bad casting perhaps, but it's deeply unsatisfying if that's indeed the answer.  It's not like 2 years old vs. 3 years old or something - no one would know.  But there's a huge difference between 6 months and nearly 2.  

 

Yeah, it strikes me as one of many examples of this show not keeping consistent continuity (going all the way back to the disappearing Lockhart kids).  If they have a script supervisor and "show bible", both are sloppy.  Or they just can't come up with workable ideas that fit continuity, so they fudge it.  I'm sure if this was made as one big long movie that hadn't been released yet, they'd go back and change a lot of stuff.  Or maybe they don't even care, I dunno.

[Pallas]

That was a gorgeous post, RedheadZombie.  Alison the perp and Alison the stranded sea nymph are both elusive as hell, but you captured her with this:

 

And where some see her as playing victim with her mouth gaping open, I see a person who's unable or unwilling to defend herself.  The tree sex with Noah.  Years of comments from Cherry and Oscar.  Who would put up with that BS?  Someone who thinks that's what they deserve. 

 

The new musical Waitress, coming to Broadway in April, is based on the 2007 movie and has a score by Sara Bareilles. The big ballad from the show has the lead character singing to herself, of herself.  It reminds me of a stronger and more self-aware Alison, and not only because of the title. Here's a lyric video made after the show premiered at the American Repertory Theater last summer. 

[Cosmocrush]

But according to Noah's version, didn't he tell Helen that Joanie wasn't his?  When they were in the beach he told Helen, "and the thing is I never even wanted Joanie."  So I'm like WTF Helen?

In Noah's version, Alison told him there was a possibility Joni wasn't his baby.  He didn't know for sure so if he shared that info with Helen, which I presume he did although we didn't actually see him do it, Joni's paternity would still be ambiguous. 

Edited December 23, 2015 by Cosmocrush

[Neurochick]

In Noah's version, Alison told him there was a possibility Joni wasn't his baby.  He didn't know for sure so if he shared that info with Helen, which I presume he did although we didn't actually see him do it, Joni's paternity would still be ambiguous. 

 

Still, that was a nasty move by Helen.

 

So Alison knows Helen drove the car, but Helen doesn't know that Alison knows she was driving the car, correct?

 

I wonder if Helen resents Noah for marrying Alison, maybe she thinks that if she hadn't hit Scotty she and Noah would have gotten back together?  If Helen wants to get back with Noah, she's dumber than a pile of rocks because that dude would seriously cheat on her again and again and again.

[cuppingmaster]

Yeah, it strikes me as one of many examples of this show not keeping consistent continuity (going all the way back to the disappearing Lockhart kids).  If they have a script supervisor and "show bible", both are sloppy.  Or they just can't come up with workable ideas that fit continuity, so they fudge it.  I'm sure if this was made as one big long movie that hadn't been released yet, they'd go back and change a lot of stuff.  Or maybe they don't even care, I dunno.

 

I actually like this show, despite the timeline stuff, and partly because the characters are unlikeable, yet knowable people.  Alison is a girl that every man has been with in his life: a pretty little rolling stone who men fall for but who can't seem to emotionally commit to anything.  Noah is the same thing for women: a guy who, no matter what he does, is restless and never really in one place mentally.  He may be a good guy outwardly, but he'll eventually leave and hurt those whom he loves.

 

That said, it'll be interesting to see how next season goes.  It's unclear if they go post-trial (not sure how they get Noah off now that he confessed), or they push some more seasons post-accident and the series ends with Noah being in jail.

[ScoobieDoobs]

For the first part of the episode, it looked like Alison was finally in a good place.  She was working on something that she was passionate about, and seemed fulfilled by it.  She was acting independently of the man in her life and not using sex to drown out her feelings.  

 

Yeah, the notion of Alison as a Pam Anderson slutty sexpot was always beyond ridiculous to me.  Guess that's what Yvonne thought when she read Descent.  Dopey Yvonne.  And she runs a publishing house?  Really?  Er, she doesn't read people very well, does she?  Idk, it was believable to me Alison was (as Athena put it somewhat to Noah) in a confused state of mind & acting wrecklessly & impulsively when it came to sex.

 

And this reminds me, was this the FIRST ep this season where we saw no unhot sex?  OK, Alison opened the door to that couple, while Scotty was wailing, but they didn't look to be having sex.  Anyhoo, thanks, Treem, for the break from the unhot sex.  It was getting very tiresome.

 

I found Scotty really compelling this episode.  When he first took over the mic, I thought he was channeling manically weird Tom Cruise.  But when he started singing, I couldn't get Jon Hamm out of my head.  I wonder if any of it was deliberate by the actor.

 

Yes, as I said earlier, I still standby thinking Colin was just consistently hammy as hell thru the whole season.  A better actor would have played this with much more subtly & better technique.  Playing a drug addict is not easy.  A so-so actor can easily resort to over-the-top dramatics.  To me, that's what Colin mostly did.  And yet, he def made a compelling & ultimately extremely effective impression with his performance of that song.  And he made a properly menacing presence before Helen & Alison (and maybe Noah, Margaret & Whitney too?) finally bumped him off.  I think Treem should bring him back as Ghostie Scotty.  Could be fun.

 

Btw, I was really hoping Oscar did it.  Maybe he really did?  Maybe he was hanging by the rowboat having a smoke?  I just can't figure out a reason why he'd bump off Scotty.

Edited December 23, 2015 by ScoobieDoobs

[quaintirene]

I can't figure out a reason why Scotty was out there anyway. It all seemed random as hell.