S05.E10: Broken Heart

[KAOS Agent]

I loved all the Dark Hook stuff in that it was super fun to watch, it was the total randomness of memory restored, now all out evil Hook that was just ridiculous. Still, crazy Hook is fun Hook. Colin was clearly having a blast.

 

The other fuckery of the episode is what pissed me off. Evil Emma doesn't want to play with the other kids, so she needs a timeout where she is left helpless for Merida to find and maim. And Hook to do whatever the hell he might want. Emma's family sucks. A lot. I did appreciate the cut from Emma saying that they needed their family/friends to help rid them of the Darkness to her family abandoning her. That was not an accident.

 

 

The Darkness is distorting and amplifying all emotions, but his frustrations with Emma have a real core from his perspective. A lot of viewers were calling Killian a boring puppy dog in Season 4. The writers are finally addressing his insecurities. I hate that Emma is being hurt in the process, but I don't believe this is going to be an unforgivable obstacle in their relationship.

 

My problem with some of the things he said is that they are not things that Emma can fix. So if Hook is truly bothered by Emma's hang ups, it's not so much that he hit her where it hurts, it's that his problems with her are not things they can compromise on. This wasn't the Shattered Sight argument Snow & David had about buying a used stroller, it's about Emma's deep psychological problems with emotional commitment. She knows it's an issue, but it's also not something she'll ever get rid of. She really will always be an orphan. If Hook resents being Emma's toy or a puppy dog, then all of his actions pretty much since Neverland made him secretly unhappy? I love the idea that there might be lasting consequences for all of this, but too often this crap is said, there's a quick apology and a hug.  I don't like the idea of that happening and given next week is the finale where they're wrapping this up and there's a ton of crap to cover, I see Hook's hurting Emma resulting in a 23 second bathroom hallway scene rather than a real look at how badly this Dark One stuff has messed with both of them and exposed some serious insecurities and unhappiness within their relationship.

Edited December 1, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Helena Dax]

I think  Emma can resist the Darkness better than Rumple or Hook because she's the Saviour and probably,  the  person who'll be able to control  the Dark Magic. Didn't Merlin say something about  that? Hook, on  the  other side, doesn't have her Light powers and his  past is full of darkness. He started  in the show as a villain. I understand why  he couldn't fight the Darkness, since he was a bit dark  himself. Can you  imagine Regina being the Dark One? I  think she couldn't fight against that, either. So your ability to resist the Dark One influence isn't  just about your inner strength, it also depends on the amount of darkness you already have.

 

And  that's what he was trying to warn Emma about. He had been fighting his inner darkness since he met her, but he  knew those dark impulses were already inside of him, which made him an easier prey for the Dark One's influence.

 

Also, I can't believe that leather bracelet is  all you need to render the Dark  One  useless. Where were  they when Rumple was causing  mayhem all around  Storybrooke?

 

 

Hook murdered a man simply because he drank his wine, for crying out loud.

 

I'd bet that was  legal in  our world until the 19th century.

[kili]

Hook murdered a man simply because he drank his wine, for crying out loud.

 

I'd bet that was  legal in  our world until the 19th century.

 

 

 

The British did not outlaw the death penalty for theft until 1832. You could be put to death for stealing something worth as little as 12 pence. Until 1808, pickpockets could be put to death. You could also be put to death for hanging out with gypsies. Here are the Articles of War for an 18th C sailing ship. There are lots of things that can result in your death including robbery (or falling asleep while on duty). 

 

I'm not going to argue that Hook was a good guy, but stealing from the captain would have been treated very seriously on a sailing ship in our world. It demonstrates quite a bit of insubordination where Captains always had to worry about mutiny and sailing ships that go into battle require everybody to follow orders. 

 

Of course, we are meant to think that Hook was a really bad guy because I doubt A&E troubled themselves about any facts. The world used to be pretty harsh.

 

That he caved in no time flat to the darkness is the problem I have here. I don't doubt that just about anyone would eventually give in, but that fast? To me that calls into question the efficacy of his redemption.

It's frustrating because he had to cave so fast for plot reasons. They only have two episodes left and we've already watched somebody struggle with not turning dark so it would be repetitive. A&E have not thought about the character implications. They also haven't thought about how Rumple could have given the Dark Ones in his head what they wanted and restore them to life, but he resisted while trying alternative plans like hatting people and turning Emma Dark to get the Author to write him a happy ending. Apparently, Rumple would rather face death then bring back the Dark Ones which he could have done at any point after being brought back to life by Neal (thanks Neal!). But, again, plot. They hadn't thought of Dark Ones in your head or bringing them back until this year, so the thought did not trouble Rumple at all.

 

Rumple also had no interest in Excalibur even though it was out of the stone before the curse was cast, but Emma, Hook, Nimue and Imp!Hook have been obsessed with it. Plot.

 

Maybe we should stop comparing Darkness to drugs and think more about it as pro-psychopathic drugs. Drugs that make you dangerously mentally unstable (instead of drugs that make people with dangerous mental problems stable). 

[Camera One]

So Emma knew all season what Dark Hook/Nimue's plan was.  She knew what would happen if she didn't succeed in transferring the darkness to Zelena.  But she made no preparations?  

 

Wouldn't Rumple know about how his blood would allow a Dark One to open up a portal to the Underworld, since that's what Nimue and all the Dark Ones had "always wanted".  Other than get the Hat box, of course.

[Eolivet]

I thought this was a great episode and while I'm admittedly no expert on Hook's character, his transformation (and hurt at being "betrayed" by being turned into the Dark One) made total sense to me. I thought it finally brought back some of the spark and fire that made Hook such an instant sensation when he arrived in season 2. He was presented as the edgier, sexier, darker alternative to the blander Neal. But once Neal was dead, Hook was neutered and woobified into this automaton of a boyfriend. I felt he lost nearly all personality with Emma, and we only saw hints of the "old" Hook around Rumple.

 

Dark Hook: Edgy? Check. Sexy? Check. Dark? Well...duh.

 

Of course, the writers want us to see this as a terrible thing because they included him being mean to Emma as part of his Dark One-ness. But if you take that away -- the edgy, dangerous "let's have a duel because I say so" Hook was just so refreshing. So, I'm going to enjoy the heck out of Dark Hook until his Dark One-ness is reversed, and he sadly reverts to "You're schmoopy!/ No, you're schmoopy!" once again.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Eolivet

[Dianthus]

I think the analogy with addiction is interesting, because we know that Hook was drinking heavily (one-handed pirate with a drinking problem/"He'll blame it on the rum.") for a long time. He killed people for specific reasons, people he felt had wronged him in a specific way. He didn't kill indiscriminately, unlike Regina who enjoyed terrorizing her subjects. OTOH, the darkness in him now is not the usual darkness that lurks inside all of us. It's more...concentrated.

[Mathius]

getOffMyLawn, you have some very solid points that I agree with, but I must hesitate with your describing Hook's dark descent as super uncomfortable because it's "very real world evil" and whatnot, implying that the magical-based stuff with Regina and Rumple and other villains is better because it's got a fantasy bend.  That's the kind of mindset that lets the writers say "it's not rape if magic was involved!" for both Regina-Graham and (at least originally; they may have backtracked on that given what was said in this episode) Zelena-Robin.  Magic and it being fantasy should not be used as an excuse; strip it away and you're still left with the magical villains choosing to be murderous assholes just like Hook.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Mathius

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Once Upon A Time Hits The Terrible Twos
We learn the dark truth of what happened in Camelot as the season's timelines come together.

[myril]

I tried, but wasn't really able to get into this episode. I don't get their idea of what the Dark One is anymore. Is it an entity on its own, possessing people, feeding on their dark sides, or is born out of the darkness of people, or the darkness existing in people enhanced through magic? Yes, it does matter, it matters a great deal if it is one or the other, to understand the characters and their acting/reacting. Maybe I lack some intellect (or have too much of it?) to get what the writers are trying to tell, too limited by a tunnel vision to see what they are putting on screen (or do I see too much that isn't there?), but IMO it is so inconsistent that it has become ridiculous. So watching the episode I couldn't help it but chuckle most of the time when seeing DarkHook, regardless what great job Collin tried to do to give that version of his character some character. And yes, chuckle by now too when I see DarkEmma or any other Dark One character. Highly doubt though this is meant as comedy show of the most absurd kind, after all this is a show on ABC not on BBC.

Was wondering at the end, though doubt there is any good sense to that: All those DarkOnes on the boat, they are "in flesh" now , did I understand that correctly? Meaning more or less alive, no figment of someone's imigination? Meaning all those DarkOnes went into some place, Underworld, Hell, whatever, as the DarkOne version of themselves when they were killed, the darkness didn't leave them after death, right? No rest for the wicked, I guess. 

Edited December 1, 2015 by myril

[Shanna Marie]

Also, Rumple totally hasn't changed.  He KNOWS Hook was turned into a Dark One against his will, he KNOWS how painful it is to hold the darkness within you, but does he attempt trying to show Hook anything remotely resembling empathy?  Nope, he makes a crack about taking his other hand, then says nothing would give him more pleasure than killing him but he'll instead leave him alive to suffer in shame...pretty similar to why he left him alive back in 2x04.

Yeah, if they really wanted to show us that Rumple has changed, he could still have walked away from the fight, but with an ounce of compassion or a sign that he's grown and changed instead of acting exactly the way he did as the Dark One. He could have declined to kill Hook because he acknowledges that he's already done Hook far more harm than Hook did to him. He could have used the same "That's not who I am" line Hook used to Emma. He could have spared Hook in honor of the fact that both of them loved Bae. Heck, he even could have done it for Belle's sake because Hook is Belle's friend or just because the man Belle loves wouldn't do that sort of thing. But leaving him alive to suffer is not the sign of a pure-hearted hero who has changed.

 

Maybe that's why Belle left him in spite of his shiny new hero heart.

 

I suspect Hook was only focused on getting the blood rather than really harming Rumple in that fight because he recognizes that his real enemy is the Dark One, not Rumple himself (though I differ on that, see above). He wants to kill the Dark One, which means raising Nimue. Non-Dark One Rumple he sees as another victim, as he said to Emma earlier in the season.

 

The alcohol comparison is only describing his behavior in this particular episode that he has the Dark One goop inside of him. Everything he did centuries ago is on him personally, but his current amplified behavior is what the metaphor was going at.

Yeah, the way it seems to be striking me, to extend the alcohol metaphor to ridiculous lengths, is that previously, he was a blackout mean drunk, knew it, and liked it. He sought out alcohol because he enjoyed drinking and the effect it had on him. He knew he was hurting people when he drank, and he kept drinking. He's the kind of guy who can never have just one drink. One drink always leads to drinking until he passes out. Then he hit bottom, realized how he'd screwed up his own life, and gave up drinking. There are times when he's been tempted, but he's learned that drinking doesn't make his life better, so he's able to resist. He's now been sober a couple of years, and he's put his life back together. There are people he cares about who also care about him. He's part of a community. He's made some amends for his past behavior and has become a good person. He's become strong enough in his sobriety that he can go through really tough times without resorting to drinking, and he can encourage others not to resort to drinking to deal with their problems. But then he helps the woman he love rescue her parents up in the cold mountains and gives her mother his coat. The parents get airlifted to safety, but then a freak snowstorm that wasn't forecast (well, actually, it was, but the person who got the forecast didn't warn anyone before they went into the mountains) hits as this guy and the woman he loves are on their way down the mountain, and because he doesn't have a coat, he's dying. Then a St. Bernard shows up with a cask around its neck, and though he begs the woman not to give him the brandy because he knows what happens when he drinks and he doesn't want to ruin what he built during his sobriety, she believes it's the only way to save him and pours the brandy down his throat. Then that one drink leads to more drinking, and going back to the behavior he showed before when he was a drunk. But with bonus magic powers because it was a magical St. Bernard with evil magical potion brandy. Or something. This is where the metaphor breaks down.

 

But I also think this is where the way it's written breaks down because while Hook gave into the darkness in the past, he's learned to resist it. He's gone through so much without sliding back into darkness. He was in agony with what Rumple put him through, and while that did raise his anger levels at the Dark One, he didn't resort to vengeance in the aftermath. Instead of going after the love of the Dark One like he did in season two, he became friends with Belle. He was able to offer Emma all his tricks for resisting darkness. He had coping mechanisms that worked for him. So the guy in the alcohol metaphor might do some nasty things while drunk and might keep drinking for a while, but eventually he'd wake up in a gutter somewhere and have the same realization he had in the first place, only this time he's pulled himself up before and would know how to do it and where to get help (unless maybe he was connected against his will to an alcohol IV, and that's how the metaphor is more accurate, though there's not really a good, life-saving reason for an alcohol IV). It also still makes no sense that he was not only okay but better than normal while he was the Dark One and just didn't remember. How did getting his memories back suddenly make such a huge difference?

[Helena Dax]

I tried, but wasn't really able to get into this episode. I don't get their idea of what the Dark One is anymore. Is it an entity on its own, possessing people, feeding on their dark sides, or is born out of the darkness of people, or the darkness existing in people enhanced through magic? Yes, it does matter, it matters a great deal if it is one or the other, to understand the characters and their acting/reacting. Maybe I lack some intellect (or have too much of it?) to get what the writers are trying to tell, too limited by a tunnel vision to see what they are putting on screen (or do I see too much that isn't there?), but IMO it is so inconsistent that it has become ridiculous. So watching the episode I couldn't help it but chuckle most of the time when seeing DarkHook, regardless what great job Collin tried to do to give that version of his character some character. And yes, chuckle by now too when I see DarkEmma or any other Dark One character. Highly doubt though this is meant as comedy show of the most absurd kind, after all this is a show on ABC not on BBC.

Was wondering at the end, though doubt there is any good sense to that: All those DarkOnes on the boat, they are "in flesh" now , did I understand that correctly? Meaning more or less alive, no figment of someone's imigination? Meaning all those DarkOnes went into some place, Underworld, Hell, whatever, as the DarkOne version of themselves when they were killed, the darkness didn't leave them after death, right? No rest for the wicked, I guess. 

 

I see the  Dark One as a separate being  who is made of evilness and the consciences  of all the people/beings who have been "infected". So when  you become the Dark  One, you get a huge download of evilness that comes from the  DO  itself and access to the other DO's incarnations. They're just  in your head, though. 

 

As a Dax,  I would  know  it.

[KAOS Agent]

Speaking of alcohol, did Hook take a single drink of rum this entire episode? That's his go to when he's upset or thinking about things and it's really interesting that it was missing from Dark Hook.

[Curio]

Speaking of alcohol, did Hook take a single drink of rum this entire episode? That's his go to when he's upset or thinking about things and it's really interesting that it was missing from Dark Hook.

 

I don't think we saw Hook drink any alcohol on screen. That's not to say he didn't do it off screen, but he usually only drinks when he's anxious, depressed, or flirty. I doubt his newfound sociopathy as a Dark One allows him to even feel those range of emotions at the moment.

[Rumsy4]

My problem with some of the things he said is that they are not things that Emma can fix. So if Hook is truly bothered by Emma's hang ups, it's not so much that he hit her where it hurts, it's that his problems with her are not things they can compromise on. This wasn't the Shattered Sight argument Snow & David had about buying a used stroller, it's about Emma's deep psychological problems with emotional commitment. She knows it's an issue, but it's also not something she'll ever get rid of. She really will always be an orphan. If Hook resents being Emma's toy or a puppy dog, then all of his actions pretty much since Neverland made him secretly unhappy?

 

It think it's more nuanced than that. Hook understands Emma's hangups and issues (more than most), but he's also human. I'm sure he felt hurt over the way she pushed him away at times, or said something biting to make him hurt. It's the Darkness digging into his deepest insecurities and distorting them that makes everything seem black and white. Let's forget the comedy the Shattered Sight spell was in Storybrooke. This is how the Mirror Shard affected Anna. She let out all her frustration and anger at how much Elsa pushing her away hurt her, despite how understanding and supporting she was of Elsa in general.

 

Emma has been working on her issues. She is not closed off the way she was in S1/S2. But now, Dark Emma was sort of reverting back: not trusting anyone, working on her own, etc.. the Darkness was affecting both of them. It made Emma colder and more secretive. It made Hook lash out in anger as he typically does. 

[KAOS Agent]

I understand that it's nuanced, but there is a deep truth to it and I just think it won't actually be addressed. The comparison to Anna's reaction to Elsa with the mirror shard is hard for me because her reaction was tied into the background of Frozen and I actually haven't seen the movie. I think Elsa pushed Anna away because she'd hurt her as a child, yes? And the parents were involved somehow. So it's not some deep psychological issue, it was about protecting her from Elsa's lack of control, which was something that was not a problem anymore. It was more about Anna getting her feelings about the whole thing out there. Emma's walls and Hook's insecurities about them are an ongoing issue. Yes, Emma is trying very hard, but she will continue to hurt him with it and there's not a whole lot she can do about it. I know a lot of people want Emma to just get over it, but regardless of how you feel about it, that's not realistic. It doesn't work that way. Some of it is just instinctual. If you've been abused, you still flinch when someone raises their hand, even though you know that they aren't going to hit you. Hook understands this, yes, but it hurts him. So now there's Emma knowing how much she hurts him with things that are not entirely in her control. The whole thing is very sad.

Edited December 2, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Rumsy4]

I understand that it's nuanced, but there is a deep truth to it and I just think it won't actually be addressed. The comparison to Anna's reaction to Elsa with the mirror shard is hard for me because her reaction was tied into the background of Frozen and I actually haven't seen the movie. I think Elsa pushed Anna away because she'd hurt her as a child, yes? And the parents were involved somehow. So it's not some deep psychological issue, it was about protecting her from Elsa's lack of control, which was something that was not a problem anymore. It was more about Anna getting her feelings about the whole thing out there. Emma's walls and Hook's insecurities about them are an ongoing issue. Yes, Emma is trying very hard, but she will continue to hurt him with it and there's not a whole lot she can do about it. I know a lot of people want Emma to just get over it, but regardless of how you feel about it, that's not realistic. It doesn't work that way. Some of it is just instinctual. If you've been abused, you still flinch when someone raises their hand, even though you know that they aren't going to hit you. Hook understands this, yes, but it hurts him. So now there's Emma knowing how much she hurts him with things that are not entirely in her control. The whole thing is very sad.

 

Taking this to the Relationships Thread. 

[KingOfHearts]

I don't find Hook's fast turn to the dark side that unbelievable. There are several explanations you could go with that have been posted on this board. The head scratching comes from the clunky delivery. Not from Colin's acting, but from the character objectives used to explain his motives. First, he's angry with Emma for denying his sacrificing and making him the Dark One. Then later he's angry at Emma for keeping Excalibur from him. Then he wants revenge on Rumple, and lastly he wants to help Nimue resurrect the DO's. I remember seeing the second Emma/Hook scene in Camelot and thinking, "Didn't we see this scene already? The show just doesn't decide on an explanation, nor can it settle on which POV to tell the story from. 

Edited December 2, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

The only weird acting bit that took me out of the scene was when he pretended to mimic Rumple with the "dearie" line.  

 

This was the first episode where I found MindRumple entertaining.  I haven't been a fan at all in previous episodes.

[CatMack]

I dont' have access to rewatch the episode at the moment, but if I recall correctly Nimue and/or Head Rumple was there during the final confrontation between Emma and Killian in Camelot, right?  Like, right up until the curse hit, which means the head Dark Ones should have been fully aware that Emma's goal was to save Killian and get rid of the Darkness.  So...how does any of Dark Swan's interactions with Head Rumple and Head Nimue in Storybrooke make sense?  Like, at all?  There's a lot of stuff in this ep that didn't make sense but could still, theoretically, be patched up with later writing, but this?  Like, Nimue straight up believed Emma had embraced the Darkness and wanted to snuff out the light and that's why she was happy about Excalibur being reunited in Storybrooke, but there is no way for that to make sense given what we saw happen in Camelot.  Do the writers watch their own show?

[KAOS Agent]

None of it makes any sense. Everything was done to make the big twist super epic, but it mostly confused the hell out of everyone. The comment section on Once's Facebook page was full of confusion. That's not really the reaction you want to your twist. It should be that Sixth Sense Aha! moment not WTF?! Of course, Colin didn't even know he was the Dark One until he got the script, so there really wasn't even a slight hint from the actor that Memoryless!Hook was a Dark One.

[Rumsy4]

First, he's angry with Emma for denying his sacrificing and making him the Dark One. Then later he's angry at Emma for keeping Excalibur from him. Then he wants revenge on Rumple, and lastly he wants to help Nimue resurrect the DO's. 

 

As I see it, the first two and the last two are tied. He is angry that Emma didn't respect his choice. But if she had given him the tether, he wouldn't have gone ballistic. He felt it as a double betrayal, especially after his whole trauma over being controlled by Rumple. I suspect resurrecting the DOs has to do with taking revenge on Rumple, as much as him lashing out at Emma.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Mathius]

Also, Hook has no real interest in helping Nimue resurrect the DOs, that's just a mean to his own ends, similar to how he didn't care about what Cora had planned for Regina and only helped her so that she would help him achieve revenge.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

 

As I see it, the first two and the last two are tied. He is angry that Emma didn't respect his choice. But if she had given him the tether, he wouldn't have gone ballistic. He felt it as a double betrayal, especially after his whole trauma over being controlled by Rumple. I suspect resurrecting the DOs has to do with taking revenge on Rumple, as much as him lashing out at Emma.

I'm not saying that it doesn't make sense, but the narrative is confusing for viewers. The focus shifts several times within the same episode. With all the PLOT PLOT PLOT going on, the message to the audience is cloudy. We can all lay out what it was meant to be, but I don't think it was delivered effectively.

 

 

Also, Hook has no real interest in helping Nimue resurrect the DOs, that's just a mean to his own ends, similar to how he didn't care about what Cora had planned for Regina and only helped her so that she would help him achieve revenge.

Getting Rumple's blood was a goal all the same. It might not have been his endgame goal, but it was still part of his plan.

Edited December 2, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[jeannetteblocker]

Why couldn't Regina use the wand to get them back to Storybrooke? How were they planning to return in the first place. So many unanswered questions, but I am still addicted to the show and Hook.

[Arnella]

So Henry is traumatized by Emma actions as Dark One and turns on her.  But her asking him for help makes everything cool between them because it shows {something} about her character and it's now Cobra: part two.  Either he should trust her because she's his mom and we know she really loves him because of her true love's kiss back in the day or just don't trust her because she is under the Dark One's influence.

The family dynamics of Snowing/SwanQueen/Rumple are totally screwed up but could we just have a little consistency?  But then, it is Henry and what can you ask of a kid who's adopted mom told him her was crazy for the first 10 years of his life (while she was raping the sheriff during a curse she created by murdering her own father).  BTW the way, he is totally over that but any infraction by his biological must be a deal breaker.

[YaddaYadda]

The standards for this show were set by a 13 year old. He gets to tell you if you're a hero, or a zero. Heroes don't kill, blah blah blah, Emma has to remain good at all times even though she's the Dark One. 

 

I get that he's expecting more from her, but sheesh, she didn't do that stuff for shits and giggles.

[Curio]

The only weird acting bit that took me out of the scene was when he pretended to mimic Rumple with the "dearie" line.

 

Heh, that was actually my favorite part of the whole episode. I've said it once, I'll say it again: Colin really needs to take on a comedic role after he's done with this show.

 

Of course, Colin didn't even know he was the Dark One until he got the script, so there really wasn't even a slight hint from the actor that Memoryless!Hook was a Dark One.

 

This time, it makes sense that the writers didn't tell Colin about being a secret Dark One. Unlike the Marian/Zelena stuff in 4A, the show wants us to believe Hook had no idea he was a Dark One. Therefore, Colin not knowing actually goes along with his character not knowing, either.

 

So Henry is traumatized by Emma actions as Dark One and turns on her. But her asking him for help makes everything cool between them because it shows {something} about her character and it's now Cobra: part two. Either he should trust her because she's his mom and we know she really loves him because of her true love's kiss back in the day or just don't trust her because she is under the Dark One's influence.

 

Henry's dialogue in that scene made no sense. When Emma was saying how she's changed (which, yes Henry, she has changed a lot since Season 1), Henry says, "When we first met, yeah. But the minute things got tough, you didn't come to anybody." So, Emma showed him she changed when they first met in Season 1, but no time after that? What? Did Henry miss all of Emma's character development in Season 2, 3, and 4? Actually...that totally makes sense. Henry was too busy focusing on Regina during those Seasons to worry about Emma's own struggles, except for that small NYC patch during 3B.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Curio

[FierceAfroChick]

Henry's dialogue in that scene made no sense. When Emma was saying how she's changed (which, yes Henry, she has changed a lot since Season 1), Henry says, "When we first met, yeah. But the minute things got tough, you didn't come to anybody." So, Emma showed him she changed when they first met in Season 1, but no time after that? What? Did Henry miss all of Emma's character development in Season 2, 3, and 4? Actually...that totally makes sense. Henry was too busy focusing on Regina during those Seasons to worry about Emma's own struggles, except for that small NYC patch during 3B.

 

I'm usually opposed to children dying on TV shows, but in Henry's case, I'd make an exception.

[Curio]

I'm usually opposed to children dying on TV shows, but in Henry's case, I'd make an exception.

 

They can just ship Henry off to boarding school in Camelot so he can be friends with the only friend he has who's his age, and he can also practice up on his writing skills.

[FierceAfroChick]

They can just ship Henry off to boarding school in Camelot so he can be friends with the only friend he has who's his age, and he can also practice up on his writing skills.

 

Perfect solution.  I was over him after season two.

[Curio]

I re-watched this episode, and sometimes, I can’t help but count the amount of double standards.

 

First, we have the writers throwing Snow under the bus, but they conveniently leave Regina out of the conversation when Hook is yelling at Emma about how he was the one who convinced Emma’s own mother to not use the dagger on her and how that had to be Emma’s choice. There was no mention of Hook physically yanking the dagger from Regina when she was taking away Emma’s agency and forced her to talk during “Birth.” It could be the case where Hook expected that kind of behavior from Regina and not from Snow, but it feels more like the writers framing Snow’s actions as a bad thing, but then they make Emma outright say “thank you” to Regina both times she’s controlled her and even frame it where Regina was right in both of those situations. (“Dagger's right here. Regina was going to use it on me. Why not you?” “What she did was wrong. I'm sorry it had to happen.” “It's funny. I'm not. She was right.”) So, it’s only bad when Emma uses Excalibur on Hook or when Snow tries to use the dagger on Emma, but it’s never bad when Regina uses it to control Emma?

 

Then, we have the other argument between Hook and Emma where he’s angry with Emma for taking away his control. “Do you have any idea how it feels to not be in control of yourself?” Yes she does, Hook. Regina has controlled her numerous times this season already. But the writers don’t want to mention that, so Emma responds with an unrelated counter-argument: “I know exactly how it feels! All my life, everyone I loved abandoned me!” That’s not exactly the point Hook was trying to make, Emma. A more appropriate response might have been, “I’m the Savior who was predestined to break a curse and was forced to go to jail to fulfill some stupid prophecy” or “Were you not there when Regina was forcing me to talk at the well?” But then again, Emma ended up thanking Regina for doing that, so…

 

Actually, when you look at that particular scene and notice how pissed off Hook was at Emma for accidentally telling him to wait and Emma being frustrated with herself for forcing him to do that, what does that tell you about Emma and Regina’s “friendship?” How can Emma be okay with Regina and thank her for controlling her, but later have Emma realize how terrible it is when she controls Hook? Is this a situation where Emma is so used to be stomped on by other people that she doesn’t even realize she deserves better, so when she does it to Hook, she suddenly realizes it’s not normal to control someone with the dagger/sword, even if you have good intentions? Will Emma make the connection between what she did to Hook is similar to what Regina was doing to her? Or was it cool for Regina to callously control Emma because Emma handed her the dagger during the premiere? But Emma only handed over the dagger because she wanted Regina to destroy her as a last resort, not pompously force Emma to do things beyond her free will. So if Emma was okay with Regina controlling her with the dagger (for some inexplicable reason), is that why Emma thought it was okay to keep Excalibur a secret from Hook?

 

There was also the scene between the Mills Sisters where Regina tells Zelena that the only reason she has a baby is because she "violated" Robin and killed Marian. But let’s just forget about Graham or how Regina was the one who killed Marian in the original timeline, which is the only reason she was with Robin to begin with. Zelena took on Marian’s memories so she knew about Marian being next in line to be executed by Regina, so Zelena could have easily thrown that back in her face. And of course there’s Regina’s, “And you didn't think of the consequences to everyone else?” Which…I don’t think the writers intended as hypocrisy. I also don’t think they thought it was hypocritical when Emma made the totally correct point about Henry forgiving Regina and Gold but not Emma, or when Regina gleefully rubbed it into Zelena’s face that she’s done far worse things than Zelena but still thinks she deserves a happier ending than Zelena, or any time Regina called Hook a teasing name when she herself hates it when other people call her the Evil Queen.

 

The sad thing is, all of these critiques and double standards so far tie in with Regina, and she wasn’t even in the episode that much. The next runner-up for double standards has to be Gold, with his talk about being a hero one moment, but then telling Hook he can’t wait to take his other hand the next minute. Or when Rumple casually mentions, “Sorry, the shop's in a bit of a mess since you sent Merida here to kill Belle. Forgive me if I don't offer you tea,” even though he was literally practicing with a sword two seconds before that comment in preparation to go kill Emma’s True Love. And then there’s Emma’s family who have wanted her to reach out to them all season, but when she finally opens up and fills them in on what she did to Hook, they immediately put her in timeout and don’t want her help with the research. Honestly, what was the point of Emma opening up to them if they couldn’t even trust her with library research? But Emma is the one framed for being wrong in this situation.

[Rumsy4]

 

The sad thing is, all of these critiques and double standards so far tie in with Regina, and she wasn’t even in the episode that much.

 

Right. Regina is the golden child of the writers, and she can do do wrong. I was so mad every time Emma thanked Regina for controlling her using the Dagger. This kind of bizarre slavish readiness to take any kind of crap from Regina is why Regina is the black hole of character destruction. Remember when Mary Margaret blamed the Curse and Zelena for the constant threat of losing their newborns? She would even say "Regina". Eye roll. 

[justcris]

They must be doing something right, because I've never been so tempted to check out the Spoilers topic as I am right now! I'm afraid that will only lead to disappointment though, so I'm trying to resist it.

 

I'm having a hard time justifying Hook leaving Excalibur with Rumple if he is truly dark and has no secret plan to foil the Dark Ones' plans. That's not to say I would want that to happen, but how else can we explain this?

 

I know I know, why focus on this plot hole when there are so many to choose from, but this has been bugging me so much since this episode aired! I really really hope there's a decent explanation other than the old 'Hook was dumb for plot reasons'.

[maryle]

Finally catch up with the Dark ones and I loved the acting from R.C, Colin and Jen.

I understand how somes people saw a more ensemble episode everyone almost got a SL.

But what stand out for me after all the CS scene and Rumple DHook scene was how much snowing, Henry and Regina was rigid and sanctancious.

I hate it! And the fact that I consider Jared not a really good actor make his scene with Emma much more aggravating!!

He forgive everything grand pa Rumple and Mommy Regina did including attempting to killed him but Emma should never be trusting again!!

But everything is good between them now ! the moody kid changed his mind because... Guessing he cannot resist new operation!!

And I am with people you cannot what Merlin was doing at Granny!! Waiting some one crush is heart!! So, convenient

[daxx]

 

I'm having a hard time justifying Hook leaving Excalibur with Rumple if he is truly dark and has no secret plan to foil the Dark Ones' plans. That's not to say I would want that to happen, but how else can we explain this?

 

Far from the largest plot hole this episode. Why was Merlin brewing the dark curse? Who's heart did he plan to use?

How did Hook know that was all ready for a heart to work?

[justcris]

Merlin wasn't even a fully formed character as far as I'm concerned, he just did stuff because the plot demanded it. Why was he leaving a warning when everyone was right outside? Why come to Emma when she was a child? Why didn't he warn of the dangers of being cut with Excalibur? Why would he be brewing a dark curse? Whenever he was being mysterious and vague, I always felt it wasn't the character being that way, it was the writers. He just didn't feel like an actual character to me.

And most importantly, why didn't anyone ask him anything of importance when they had a chance? I mean, he was right there! I'm sure there were lingering questions from 4B, but to be fair I'm not sure because I blocked out most of that season. And I'm sure we'll have loads more lingering questions at the end of 5A that will have no resolution whatsoever.

 

And yet, Hook leaving Excalibur behind still bothers me more than everything else. Go figure.

[Dianthus]

Can't DO Hook just poof Excalibur back if/when he needs it? And WTF did Rumple win anyway? He didn't win the damn duel anymore than Zelena killed Neal (yeah, I know, that's their [stupid] story and they're sticking to it). Rumple didn't defeat the Darkness, didn't destroy DO Hook or thwart his evil scheme. Ok, Rumple had DO Hook at sword point, but he only survived the duel because DO Hook bailed on it. Rumple is no mo a hero than Douchefire either. Silly me, I thought you actually needed to know what words meant and how to use them if you wanted to be a professional writer.

[Camera One]

The "duel to the death" reminded me of the standoff between Zelena and Regina in 3B.  Instead in that case, everyone showed up to show support to Regina.  It's kinda funny no one even bothered to go cheer on/save Rumple.  Too bad no one got to the chapter in the Dark One Chronicles pointing out the blood of one who has been to hell and back could summon back all Dark Ones from the underworld.  I'm going to guess Belle will come running into a room with that gem next episode.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Camera One

[Dianthus]

Yeah, I was the one who put forward the idea that Belle might try and talk her friend down from killing her husband, but just look how spectacularly wrong I was! Yes, Hook has hurt her in the past, but if you really wanna be a hero, you gotta take a few risks. 

[HoodlumSheep]

I'm upset we'll probably never get answers for all the nonsense involving Merlin (in season 4 and 5a). Why did he have a house in storybrooke? Why was there a random portal door in it? Why did it have a secret room full of empty author books? Why did he brew a dark curse, because he seemed a little surprised when Nimue appeared, so who did he think was going to get their heart crushed? Why did he have a sketchy face when Hook's wound reopened? Why did he leave a voicemail when everyone was just outside the diner???

Why????????

And now we'll probably never know.

[Rumsy4]

Ugh... these writers are the worst!! :-p

[MedievalGirl]

My Buffy connections to this episode had more to do with characters researching in a library (squee!) and seeing the arrival of the Dark Ones an a inversion of activating all the potentials. Plus a little of "Of course we couldn't know Hook was the Dark One. He wears leather pants all the time." (Because in the Jossverse when someone goes evil they stop to put on leather pants.)

 

Henry doesn't bother me. I just always see everything he says through the filter of short sided teenage angst. The actor could maybe portray this better but that would likely be perceived as even more annoying. At least his voice seems to have evened out. 

 

I just rewatched the the first half the season. I was mostly looking for clues from Hook's behavior like maybe he had a Sixth Sense style conversation. Nope. The only thing was the camera focusing ominously on Hook after viewing Merlin's voicemail. However, I think him going on about his rings may have been a bit of his darker subconscious coming through. (Yes, I know the actor didn't know he as supposed to be dark during these scenes.) 

 

I still love this show and I was inclined to like this episode. Stuff happened including angsty conversation and a sword fight. 

[HoodlumSheep]

^ at least now the hero's know that all they have to do to subdue a DO is give him or her a double whammy of stealing their memories with a dream catcher and a Dark Curse hijacked so that person has no clue. Apparently a Dark Curse can override all DO magic/stuff. Emma said Hook would wake up as the man she loved, and by golly, he did.

:D :D :D :D

*And now I'm thinking about this Dark Curse.

Usually they've been tied in with memory wipes (whether hijacked or not), so you'd typically have to break the curse before getting your memories back. That wasn't the case with this curse, because Emma didn't write a "saviour" into this curse, so how does that affect stuff? No TLK or something was needed to restore memories, they just needed the dream catchers.

So didn't Emma effectively screw up by not writing in a "saviour" clause, which could have prolonged Hook getting his memories back? Or wouldn't that work because she used dreamcatchers?

Does any of my rambling make sense?

Edited December 3, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[InsertWordHere]

I rewatched this episode last night and I think everything that happened in Camelot is pretty straightforward and Hook was not playing a trick on anyone. He especially didn't have a plan with Merlin. 

 

However, his actions in Storybrooke really don't add up to me and I think his actions there still leave plenty of wiggle room for the idea that he sure as hell wants everyone to think he is the darkest Dark One to ever dark.

 

I noticed Hook had five different outfits in this episode, which is really strange for the guy who barely changes his clothes! In Camelot, when he goes with his signature leather look, Clippy says, "I went with the leather too." I wonder if that's why Hook is not wearing any leather in his Dark One Storybrooke outfit. 

[mercfan3]

I actually got what Henry was saying. Emma is a dark one. And she hasn't proven she can be trusted yet, in that scenario. Regina has actually changed from villain to hero, and Rumple got a reset. 

 

The idea that Hook wants to destroy the dark one is probably my favorite theory. 

[Camera One]

I guess one could try to minimize the harshness of Henry's response in two ways.  One is that he was still shocked that Emma took his girlfriend's heart and was still traumatized by the idea that Emma could do that.  The other is that he held Emma to a higher standard because he loved her more than Regina and Rumple?  This just reminded me of how after he found out Snow killed Cora, and Emma, Charming, etc. were discussing the Regina threat, he exclaimed "You used to be heroes".  

Edited December 4, 2015 by Camera One

[shipperx]

I'm with mercfan in that I didn't have a problem with what Henry said. People are making it a moral competition between Regina, Rump, and Emma. It shouldn't be, and that wasn't the way that I interpreted what Henry said, which was not a comparison of who did how much wrong but that Emma was behaving self destructively. He wasn't going to enable her flight down a dark path is her own self destructive tendencies. The very speed with which he joined her on Operation Whatever this week showed that his actions weren't out of vindictiveness or even about the degree of 'wrongness' of her actions (or of her actions as compared to Regina, etc). It want about competition. Emma jumped to that comparison but her decision making skills have been clouded by the Dark preying on her insecurities. What I thought Henry was saying was that he wasn't going to enable Emma in her reversion to shutting people out and isolating herself because those sorts of actions were what was leading her to poor decisions. As soon as she asked for real help he gave it. Basically, don't be Belle. Unconditional love isn't always a good thing even if we overly romanticize it.

Similarly, I'm not as hard on Robin and Regina re: Green Bean as I've seen a few been. Again it's often being cast as a competition between Regina and Zelena as to who did the most harm. It shouldn't be a competition. It's about possibility of imminent harm. I believe the current diagnosis of Zelena would be along the lines of cray-cray. She is rather unstable. Unstable people really shouldn't have unsupervised visitation. It's not about a contest. It's about protecting a child. (And I can only imagine the screaming and teeth gnashing that would go on of it were Regina demanding custody of her rape baby. It would be ear splitting. And regardless of the desire to turn things into an evil measuring contest between characters, I think such competitions miss the point. Looked at purely on its on, an emotionally unstable woman is demanding her rape baby. That's gotta be approached with trepidation and supervised visitation. Anything else would be negligence).

Edited December 4, 2015 by shipperx

[Dianthus]

shipperx, on 04 Dec 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:shipperx, on 04 Dec 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:shipperx, on 04 Dec 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:

I'm with mercfan in that I didn't have a problem with what Henry said. People are making it a moral competition between Regina, Rump, and Emma. It shouldn't be, and that wasn't the way that I interpreted what Henry said, which was not a comparison of who did how much wrong but that Emma was behaving self destructively. He wasn't going to enable her flight down a dark path is her own self destructive tendencies. The very speed with which he joined her on Operation Whatever this week showed that his actions weren't out of vindictiveness or even about the degree of 'wrongness' of her actions (or of her actions as compared to Regina, etc). It want about competition. Emma jumped to that comparison but her decision making skills have been clouded by the Dark preying on her insecurities. What I thought Henry was saying was that he wasn't going to enable Emma in her reversion to shutting people out and isolating herself because those sorts of actions were what was leading her to poor decisions. As soon as she asked for real help he gave it. Basically, don't be Belle. Unconditional love isn't always a good thing even if we overly romanticize it.

Similarly, I'm not as hard on Robin and Regina re: Green Bean as I've seen a few been. Again it's often being cast as a competition between Regina and Zelena as to who did the most harm. It shouldn't be a competition. It's about possibility of imminent harm. I believe the current diagnosis of Zelena would be along the lines of cray-cray. She is rather unstable. Unstable people really shouldn't have unsupervised visitation. It's not about a contest. It's about protecting a child. (And I can only imagine the screaming and teeth gnashing that would go on of it were Regina demanding custody of her rape baby. It would be ear splitting. And regardless of the desire to turn things into an evil measuring contest between characters, I think such competitions miss the point. Looked at purely on its on, an emotionally unstable woman is demanding her rape baby. That's gotta be approached with trepidation and supervised visitation. Anything else would be negligence).

That's a good point, but I wonder, if it's Robin there without Regina, what could he do? He doesn't have magic, so the best he could hope for is to appeal to Zelena's better nature? Also, too, Regina is less likely to hurt the child physically, but she definitely has parenting issues of her own.

ETA: While Zelena is batcrap crazy, we didn't see any indication that she was an imminent danger to the child, holding her close, smiling at her, calling her Green Bean.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Dianthus

[Mitch]

Good episode...(don't worry, post S1 I have stopped trying to make sense of this show.) Hook and Emma are finally interesting together when evil, and I love BadHook and do not look forward to the return of romance novel in "lurrrve" Hook. As a matter of fact, the way he was playing Emma, Hook can give both Regina and Zelena tips on being a bitch!

 

The "Curse, " though has been so watered down can it be called a curse anymore? It just got them back home,  Emma took their memories so it makes no sense. (didnt Regina tear up the Curse in the episode that Pan cast it???) Had no problem with the "children change you," thing as children DO change you....however, the show had plenty of examples where evil people (Cora, Pan, Rump a dump) were still evil despite their children so the show does not present it as a cure all. I love Zelena and hope she still causes trouble but on a less earth shattering scale. I want her to stick around to occasionally stab the Goodie Two Shoes in the back and make bitch faces at the Charmings while insulting Regina. Perhaps she and Whale can get together, I heard he liked being thrown against walls and you know Zelena is into about "anything."  Didn't miss boring Grumpy but use Granny more she can be a Bad Ass ...her as Zelena's watch dog would be great, Granny can give sass as good as the Mills girls.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Mitch

[ParadoxLost]

Someone want to explain something to me?

 

Was the magic that brought them back to Storybrooke purple because 1) it was the Dark Curse and since Regina cast it first it keeps that color, 2) REgina was doing something in a previous episode that we saw and I forgot about, or 3) its a hint that Hook and Regina cooked something up offscreen.

 

I'm thinking back to Arthur using green magic and surprise he was previously in cahoots with Zelena.

 

And Hook is using Red which is Rumple's color so I guess its meaningless unless that is to emphasize that Hook is overcome by headRumple..  Or they ran out of colors.