General Gabbery: DWTS

[truthaboutluv]

I remember a thread back on the TWOP board about the tour where posters shared their experience. Haven't really seen much conversation about it for awhile. But of course the show was more popular back then. 

[RomanKat]

About a year ago, I started writing blog entries about "TV generation" ballroom dancers, with information about

• Past DWTS and other TV appearances - (there's a section on the young e.g. Castro sibling generation)
• Dance Sport records
• dancer ages

Figured I'd finally post, given the announcement of DWTS Jr..  Probably should try to update, with focus on even younger dancers.

Edited May 17, 2017 by RomanKat

[SnarkyTart]

There are more than a few things I think are "wrong" with DWTS as it stands now.  One issue that bothered me a lot was some of the cutting, almost cruel commentary from the judges that I believe contributed to the show's inability to get actual stars to come on the show.  If you're going to invite an A or B-list celebrity with little or no dance ability to be on the show, then don't treat them cruelly solely based on their lack of skill, ie: Michael Bolton.   You can give someone a 4 or 5 score without being condescending or cruel.

Another issue that bothered me early on was the judges/producers decision to score everyone according to their perceived individual potential, rather than according to their actual performance.  This was perhaps the show's way of dealing with the inclusion of elderly contestants, physically challenged contestants, children, and "ringers".  I say, score everyone on the same scale and let the chips fall where they may.  There's an argument to be made that, if the scoring wasn't on such a sliding scale, the "ringers" would always win.  Heather Morris would argue otherwise.  If we're told to vote for our favorite contestant, rather than the best dancer, then scoring them on their actual merit isn't a huge factor in the final outcome.

[Toonces464]

3 hours ago, kcrabtree06 said:

I'm not sure where to put this one so I am putting it on this thread. Has anyone here ever been to the DWTS tour? I am going in July and I cannot wait!!!

I went about 7 or 8 years ago and it was amazing, but I was lucky enough to see people like Derek, Maks, Karina and Cheryl. There's no one on the current tour (with or without Val) that I would pay to see.

[kcrabtree06]

Quote

 

Ha, lucky me I am actually not paying for my ticket!! I thought about going but decided the ticket prices were a little high, but my friend's spouse is buying tickets for her birthday and asked me if I would like to join them and is paying for my ticket too :).

Edited May 18, 2017 by kcrabtree06

[Venee]

4 hours ago, SnarkyTart said:

There are more than a few things I think are "wrong" with DWTS as it stands now.  One issue that bothered me a lot was some of the cutting, almost cruel commentary from the judges that I believe contributed to the show's inability to get actual stars to come on the show.  If you're going to invite an A or B-list celebrity with little or no dance ability to be on the show, then don't treat them cruelly solely based on their lack of skill, ie: Michael Bolton.   You can give someone a 4 or 5 score without being condescending or cruel.

Another issue that bothered me early on was the judges/producers decision to score everyone according to their perceived individual potential, rather than according to their actual performance.  This was perhaps the show's way of dealing with the inclusion of elderly contestants, physically challenged contestants, children, and "ringers".  I say, score everyone on the same scale and let the chips fall where they may.  There's an argument to be made that, if the scoring wasn't on such a sliding scale, the "ringers" would always win.  Heather Morris would argue otherwise.  If we're told to vote for our favorite contestant, rather than the best dancer, then scoring them on their actual merit isn't a huge factor in the final outcome.

For a few days now, I've been trying to think how to phrase this idea, because the same thought has occurred to me. I agree with this 100%. I'm even more on board with this now, because all I've heard from media concerning this show in the last few days, is that this show is about taking people who can't dance and turning them into dancers, and it's about the journey. (I just saw an interview with Toni Dovolani  yesterday and he's pushing this idea too). If you're going to still cast experienced celebs, score them the same as the inexperienced celebs and as you said "Let the chips fall.." 

as an aside I found it interesting that Tony went on about this show being about turning non dancers into dancers,  but earlier in the interview when asked what it would take for him to come back he mentioned getting a good partner.... hmmm  (I'll bet........ Tony you know what the good partners usually have... some experience lol lol )

[Toonces464]

1 hour ago, kcrabtree06 said:

Ha, lucky me I am actually not paying for my ticket!! I thought about going but decided the ticket prices were a little high, but my friend's spouse is buying tickets for her birthday and asked me if I would like to join them and is paying for my ticket too :).

I hope you have a great time! I saw the Maks and Val show last year because I got free tickets through work.

[boyznkatz]

The freestyle dances are posted on Pure. Val is doing yet another contemporary (yawn). David is doing a baseball song. Rashad is doing a Bruno Mars song. How predictable.

I can totally see David winning this thing.

Imagine what we could have gotten from Nancy, Heather or Simone. Pissed!

Edited May 19, 2017 by boyznkatz

[Toonces464]

1 hour ago, boyznkatz said:

The freestyle dances are posted on Pure. Val is doing yet another contemporary (yawn). David is doing a baseball song. Rashad is doing a Bruno Mars song. How predictable.

I can totally see David winning this thing.

Imagine what we could have gotten from Nancy, Heather or Simone. Pissed!

You'll definitely get something from Heather. I see she's dancing in the female pro number.

[boyznkatz]

1 hour ago, Toonces464 said:

You'll definitely get something from Heather. I see she's dancing in the female pro number.

A competing contestant in the pro number? Wow, they sure aren't trying to hide her background.

By the way, I love your screen name!    :-D

[Toonces464]

35 minutes ago, boyznkatz said:

A competing contestant in the pro number? Wow, they sure aren't trying to hide her background.

By the way, I love your screen name!    :-D

I guess now that she's out of the competition there's no reason to pretend she's not a pro?

Thank you! ?

[kitcloudkicker]

Simone and Sasha are dancing something too. Since this is just a big variety show wrapped up in the skin of a competition show, what you actually place doesn't matter so much (everyone gets a freestyle!) 

[Callaphera]

8 hours ago, Toonces464 said:

You'll definitely get something from Heather. I see she's dancing in the female pro number.

So... she gets to take part in a stripper-esque female pro number choreographed by Mandy Moore? I definitely would have preferred a freestyle. 

[colorbars]

11 hours ago, Toonces464 said:

I guess now that she's out of the competition there's no reason to pretend she's not a pro?

Thank you! ?

Did they ever pretend she wasn't, though?

I would've loved to see her do a freestyle. Though if it was choreographed by Maks, it probably would've been disappointing anyways.

[Toonces464]

1 hour ago, colorbars said:

Did they ever pretend she wasn't, though?

I would've loved to see her do a freestyle. Though if it was choreographed by Maks, it probably would've been disappointing anyways.

They didn't pretend she wasn't but they definitely tried to downplay that it gave her any advantage.

I'm going to guess the female pro dance is her freestyle. Interesting her "spotlight dance" is with the female pros instead of Maks. I guess he's too busy bromancing Nick. Oh wait, that's right.....Nick is a bachelor and therefore is more useful for publicity purposes.

[kitcloudkicker]

Witney posted a rehearsal clip of the number. Hard to tell from the snippet shown but it looks  like it might be good. It's a more interesting song than the "sexy lady girl power" type ones they usually use for female pro dances. Doesn't look like another "Ain't your mama." (No Heather in the clip, but she's tagged in the caption.)

[jjjmoss]

So both Lindsay and Sharna have had 4 T4 contestants and 3 T3 contestants without a win. For those seasons, their contestants' ranking in average judge scores:

Lindsay - 6th, 3rd, 3rd, 6th

Sharna - 5th, 2nd, 5th, 2nd

So I suppose Sharna has had better partners. I wonder if one or both will get an Obvious Contender next season, as I personally hadn't ever heard of either of their partners this season.

[crossover]

1 hour ago, jjjmoss said:

So both Lindsay and Sharna have had 4 T4 contestants and 3 T3 contestants without a win. For those seasons, their contestants' ranking in average judge scores:

Lindsay - 6th, 3rd, 3rd, 6th

Sharna - 5th, 2nd, 5th, 2nd

So I suppose Sharna has had better partners. I wonder if one or both will get an Obvious Contender next season, as I personally hadn't ever heard of either of their partners this season.

I thought this was interesting as well.  Sharna has had the better partners which would include Charlie who did not make the T4.  Sharna and Lindsay had recognizable partners this season (large fanbases) by a lot of people--ABC bachelor and baseball player for the cubs/red sox.  So they weren't strapped down this season.  I would hope they would give Lindsay the gifted dance partner with a great fanbase next time.  But I don't think TPTB are going to manipulate the next season as hard as they did this season toward the end.  They got the male winner.  So next season probably doesn't matter. 

Lindsay's had 5 partners with 4 making T4 (80%).  Victor Ortiz, her first, ended in 8th place.  Sharna's had 9 partners with 4 making T4 (44%).  Sharna had two partners finished in 12th place.  So Lindsay's done more with less (quality and quantity).

Edited May 24, 2017 by crossover

[boyznkatz]

Lindsay is smart and knows what works. She is going to win very soon.

[tessaforever]

On 5/24/2017 at 0:28 AM, crossover said:

I thought this was interesting as well.  Sharna has had the better partners which would include Charlie who did not make the T4.  Sharna and Lindsay had recognizable partners this season (large fanbases) by a lot of people--ABC bachelor and baseball player for the cubs/red sox.  So they weren't strapped down this season.  I would hope they would give Lindsay the gifted dance partner with a great fanbase next time.  But I don't think TPTB are going to manipulate the next season as hard as they did this season toward the end.  They got the male winner.  So next season probably doesn't matter. 

Lindsay's had 5 partners with 4 making T4 (80%).  Victor Ortiz, her first, ended in 8th place.  Sharna's had 9 partners with 4 making T4 (44%).  Sharna had two partners finished in 12th place.  So Lindsay's done more with less (quality and quantity).

This is super interesting, plus I also wonder if Witney will always be given drek partners from now on, because she won so early as a pro. Like she has to pay her dues *after* her win instead of before. 

Also, I may be confused, but is the general consensus that TPTB wanted Simone off before the Final 3 because they didn't want another gymnast to win right after Laurie, and they knew that if Simone made the Final 3 she'd have a good chance of winning? 

The ending of this show casts a whole new light on a lot of stuff. For example, I thought giving Normani immunity was because they wanted her to win; now I see it was to protect her because she wasn't getting the votes that David and Rashad were getting. 

[smiley13]

On 5/24/2017 at 1:28 AM, crossover said:

I thought this was interesting as well.  Sharna has had the better partners which would include Charlie who did not make the T4.  Sharna and Lindsay had recognizable partners this season (large fanbases) by a lot of people--ABC bachelor and baseball player for the cubs/red sox.  So they weren't strapped down this season.  I would hope they would give Lindsay the gifted dance partner with a great fanbase next time.  But I don't think TPTB are going to manipulate the next season as hard as they did this season toward the end.  They got the male winner.  So next season probably doesn't matter. 

Lindsay's had 5 partners with 4 making T4 (80%).  Victor Ortiz, her first, ended in 8th place.  Sharna's had 9 partners with 4 making T4 (44%).  Sharna had two partners finished in 12th place.  So Lindsay's done more with less (quality and quantity).

The manipulation was for Normani and it backfired on them.  The judges worked double time trying to little Val another trophy, but thankfully the voting public did not get sucked in by it.  

Sharna has been gifted numerous contenders and could not produce.  Lindsay and Emma both have achieved more with less talented partners.

[Venee]

59 minutes ago, tessaforever said:

This is super interesting, plus I also wonder if Witney will always be given drek partners from now on, because she won so early as a pro. Like she has to pay her dues *after* her win instead of before. 

Also, I may be confused, but is the general consensus that TPTB wanted Simone off before the Final 3 because they didn't want another gymnast to win right after Laurie, and they knew that if Simone made the Final 3 she'd have a good chance of winning? 

The ending of this show casts a whole new light on a lot of stuff. For example, I thought giving Normani immunity was because they wanted her to win; now I see it was to protect her because she wasn't getting the votes that David and Rashad were getting. 

Well that night they didn't have to give her immunity, she and Val had the best dance and deserved the top score. The only real threat to immunity for them had been Eliminated the week Prior ,Heather and Maks.  I guess one could argue they decided to make that the immunity week,  but I'm guessing each shows theme and format is planned well in advance of the results.

[Toonces464]

9 minutes ago, Venee said:

The only real threat to immunity for them had been Eliminated the week Prior ,Heather and Maks.  I guess one could argue they decided to make that the immunity week,  but I'm guessing each shows theme and format is planned well in advance of the results.

Why would Heather and Maks be the only real threat for immunity? None of their dances were that spectacular that they would warrant immunity except maybe their Rumba. Rashad, Simone, Nancy, really anyone could have been a threat depending on the week and the dance.

[tessaforever]

46 minutes ago, Venee said:

Well that night they didn't have to give her immunity, she and Val had the best dance and deserved the top score. The only real threat to immunity for them had been Eliminated the week Prior ,Heather and Maks.  I guess one could argue they decided to make that the immunity week,  but I'm guessing each shows theme and format is planned well in advance of the results.

I guess I'm just used to thinking of the "immunity" concept itself as inherently manipulative, and something they deploy each year to promote/keep a contestant. I don't think it's left to chance, i.e. just whichever celeb happens to have the best dance that night. I remember that tango and I didn't think it was as flawless as the judges did. YMMV. 

[Venee]

33 minutes ago, Toonces464 said:

Why would Heather and Maks be the only real threat for immunity? None of their dances were that spectacular that they would warrant immunity except maybe their Rumba. Rashad, Simone, Nancy, really anyone could have been a threat depending on the week and the dance.

She had only danced once with Maks prior to that. He comes back and they get the first 40. As it played out that night, none of the others you mentioned were a threat.

[Toonces464]

16 minutes ago, Venee said:

She had only danced once with Maks prior to that. He comes back and they get the first 40. As it played out that night, none of the others you mentioned were a threat.

You can't say the only real threat to Val and Normani getting immunity was Heather and Maks based on what they danced the previous week. Even if they hadn't been eliminated, they could have produced another clunker like that Jazz.

[Venee]

3 minutes ago, Toonces464 said:

You can't say the only real threat to Val and Normani getting immunity was Heather and Maks based on what they danced the previous week. Even if they hadn't been eliminated, they could have produced another clunker like that Jazz.

Momentum is a thing, and I think Maks gets high on that.  I didn't see a "Disney clunker" repeating. I also think pound for pound Heather is the one dancer that could challenge Normani... 

[dcubed]

1 hour ago, Venee said:

Well that night they didn't have to give her immunity, she and Val had the best dance and deserved the top score.

I might be getting my weeks mixed up but if they had the best scores that night, it wouldn't help them from being eliminated as elimination was based upon the previous week's scores.  So, just like Heather's perfect score didn't save her, Normani's may not have had the votes to keep her in so they gave her the immunity to keep her in and try to build momentum to keep her around. 

[Toonces464]

25 minutes ago, Venee said:

Momentum is a thing, and I think Maks gets high on that.  I didn't see a "Disney clunker" repeating. I also think pound for pound Heather is the one dancer that could challenge Normani... 

I've seen Maks many times put out a sparkler followed by a clunker. And obviously Rashad and David were able to challenge Normani since they both beat her.

[Venee]

7 minutes ago, Toonces464 said:

I've seen Maks many times put out a sparkler followed by a clunker. And obviously Rashad and David were able to challenge Normani since they both beat her.

Were talking about Immunity week, which was purely based on dance. David and Rashad were able to challenge Normani and beat her with voting, and a sliding scale when it came to Dance.  Heather would have been judged on the same scale as Normani.  

[Venee]

46 minutes ago, dcubed said:

I might be getting my weeks mixed up but if they had the best scores that night, it wouldn't help them from being eliminated as elimination was based upon the previous week's scores.  So, just like Heather's perfect score didn't save her, Normani's may not have had the votes to keep her in so they gave her the immunity to keep her in and try to build momentum to keep her around. 

I may be confused as to what you mean. That night, whomever got the highest score ,received immunity and could not be voted out that week no matter what their scores were the previous week.  Voting is fluid week to week, but we could extrapolate that she theoretically was ahead of Bonner, Nick and Nancy since she outlasted them, but who knows...  If what you are saying is to be believed, then the assertion is that the judges knew who was going home before the competition that night, and manipulated the scores to keep a contestant in. I guess I'm holding out hope that type of cheating isn't going on.

[marykat71702]

On 5/24/2017 at 0:28 AM, crossover said:

Sharna and Lindsay had recognizable partners this season (large fanbases) by a lot of people--ABC bachelor and baseball player for the cubs/red sox. 

Peta had the Bachelor (Nick). Sharna had the rodeo guy (Bonner). I don't think many people had any idea who he was.

[crowceilidh]

And, as a matter of fact, I'm sorry that I now have an idea who he is.

[crossover]

4 hours ago, marykat71702 said:

Peta had the Bachelor (Nick). Sharna had the rodeo guy (Bonner). I don't think many people had any idea who he was.

Thanks.  I've mixed Bonner and Nick up all season.  They've been interchangeable for me.  But I was surprised by the support that Bonner had.  Reminded me of Ty Murray who also came from the rodeo scene, I THINK.  So Sharna received a better gift than the bachelor. 

[dcubed]

15 hours ago, Venee said:

I may be confused as to what you mean. That night, whomever got the highest score ,received immunity and could not be voted out that week no matter what their scores were the previous week.  Voting is fluid week to week, but we could extrapolate that she theoretically was ahead of Bonner, Nick and Nancy since she outlasted them, but who knows...  If what you are saying is to be believed, then the assertion is that the judges knew who was going home before the competition that night, and manipulated the scores to keep a contestant in. I guess I'm holding out hope that type of cheating isn't going on.

What I am thinking is that the judges can see how things are going just as well as we do, if not with a little more inside knowledge.  Normani had been in jeopardy once prior.  Heather got eliminated after a perfect scores so her vote total must have been very low.  I can see them talking about who they want to remain and who they are concerned about and rewarding that person with the highest scores, worthy or not.  Straight up know who's going? - no.  Got a good educated guess as to who might go? - yes. 

[boyznkatz]

I don't see the point of immunity at all, besides buying someone one more week. David must have been far ahead of Normani in votes, if she had a 10 point lead and he still beat her. No way was she going to beat him, no matter how much TPTB interfered. I guess they could have done it to help her beat Simone into the finals. They have a lot more invested in Val than Sasha.

[RomanKat]

For those who like numbers, I've posted a historical analysis of the Season 25 cast.

[madpsych78]

How often has the reality matched the historical analysis in seasons past?

Also, is Lindsey S. really a singer? Her primary focus is violin. Perhaps "musician" would be more accurate?

[Morrigan]

I love your historical analysis, RomanKat! Would love to see all the categories, if you've done them all. But in any case, thanks! It's very interesting.

[RomanKat]

21 hours ago, madpsych78 said:

How often has the reality matched the historical analysis in seasons past?that's

Also, is Lindsey S. really a singer? Her primary focus is violin. Perhaps "musician" would be more accurate?

Both fair questions.  I've added a note to the analysis that "singer" is the nearest category to "musician" that was available.  I should probably change the category name to singer/musician, since quite a few male "singers" were also musicians.

As for the first question, that's tricky.  I've posted eight previous analyses, but they were never meant to be predictive of results.  Also, the idea of stars likely finishing within one cluster is fairly recent, and I probably would have collapsed clusters in earlier seasons to 3-4 clusters had I employed it sooner.  I've gone back over those analyses to consider how I might have collapsed them down to 3-4 clusters, but that's obviously problematic.  Also, there's the obvious safety net that whenever there are just 3 clusters, stars in the middle cluster must finish within one cluster.  There's also the further complication that withdrawals and wildcards (those with less reliable historical averages based on limited data) can throw post-assessments off.

With those caveats, I'll give a quick summary of my post-assessment of the eight previous analyses (assuming 3-4 collapsed clusters per season):

6 of 8 times, the winner was from the preseason top cluster.

Twice, the winner moved up from the 2nd cluster (Nyle and Rashad).  Of those, one was considered a wildcard in the preseason analysis (Nyle--first deaf contestant).

No winner has (yet) moved up from the 3rd or 4th preseason analysis cluster.

49% of the time, stars have finished in the same placement-wise cluster as their preseason analysis, including withdrawals.

Eight times, a star has moved more than one cluster up or down, for an average of one per season.  They were: Dorothy Hamill in Season 16, Christina Milian and Bill Engvall in Season 17, Michael Sam and Noah Galloway in Season 20, Mischa Barton in Season 22, and Jake T. Austen and Terra Jole in Season 23. 

Of those eight, one was an injury withdrawal--Dorothy.  Five were preseason wildcards, including Dorothy (first senior female athlete), Bill Engvall (new pro), Noah Galloway (inspirational story with physical limitations), Jake T. Austen (new pro), and Terra Jole (no prior height comparisons).

I'll try to post details of this quick post-assessment, so that you may assess the post-assessment. :-)  Overall, I'd say the within-one-cluster approach is conservative.  Whenever a star has moved more than one cluster away from the preseason analysis, they have tended to be a wildcard, withdrawal, or apparent train wreck (e.g. Mischa and Jake, neither whom was in the right mindset to do the show).    Two notable exceptions were Christina and Michael.

ETA:  The previous analyses were from seasons 16-24, minus season 19.  I think I may have done a season 19 analysis, but didn't post it and now can't find it.

20 hours ago, Morrigan said:

I love your historical analysis, RomanKat! Would love to see all the categories, if you've done them all. But in any case, thanks! It's very interesting.

I'm not sure what you mean by categories.  If you're referring to comparison groups, then the embedded spreadsheet should be scroll-able.  Please let me know if it isn't.

Edited September 18, 2017 by RomanKat

[RomanKat]

FYI, I've gotten a big jump in views for this analysis versus past seasons.  It makes me nervous, because as much as I stress that these aren't meant to be predictive, it's a point that can be ignored.  (I'm just an analyst, not a prognosticator.)  To be safe, I've added a link to an alternative clustering with an explanation to the original post.

[Morrigan]

Thanks for the details! Of course it's understood that it isn't necessarily predictive - lots of weird things can happen to an individual contestant, whether injury or bad attitude or whatever.

[Uke]

New info:  For week 2 the couples will have 2 dances, one latin and one ballroom. 

Source Mark's vlog3 around the 9 minute point.

https://www.facebook.com/markballas/videos/1745131338839242/

[Lady Calypso]

1 minute ago, spanana said:

Last I'll say on it since we are getting off topic, but this is also very subjective. I personally don't think James got 2x the pimpage of Laurie.  The judges and everyone loved all over Laurie as the second coming as well, so I think the pimpage was a lot more even than many think.  However James needed more just by virtue of many had never heard of the guy whereas most already knew Laurie's name coming straight off the Olympics.  Laurie was the frontrunner from the day the cast was announced and there was never a doubt in my mind she was winning.  I also think there is a difference between judges pimping and public perception.  I can go also go on the internet and find hatred of anyone and everyone that has ever been on DWTS, usually at the hands of whoever their main competition was that season.  Sure, I'm sure there was some criticism of Laurie.  But in their seasons I could also go online and find criticism of Alfonso or Riker or Corbin or any number of male "ringers".  Or last season I could find plenty of hatred of Rashad and David, generally at the hands of Normani's fans.  Normani got plenty of hate too, no denying that, but I'm not going to pretend I didn't see Rashad and David being called every name in the book as well.  It all depends on where you look.

I didn't personally watch season 23, but I did hear quite a bit about this. I remember Laurie being predicted as the winner from the get-go. Much like David Ross, she was at the height of her popularity right then and there, so of course she had the fans to back her up and get her to the end. It also helped that Laurie seemed to know how to dance, unlike David. I remember reading praise for Laurie and how people wanted her to win. Outside of the DWTS audience, people were rooting for Laurie. I didn't even know about James until I caught some of his dances on Youtube. I know he was popular with the DWTS audience now, but he certainly wasn't that popular with the general audience who might have tuned in when they heard their favourites were going to be on that season, but mostly Laurie. 

I also remember Bindi being the frontrunner back in her season, and the only name I really heard that year. I didn't watch then either, but that's around the time I got more interested in the show. 

5 minutes ago, PBGamer89 said:

Yet Normani got twice the hate Jordan will ever get.

I'm just seeing constant love for Jordan and Frankie and Lindsey gets the "oh she was good too i guess".

I just don't like the current narrative from last season where the women get shafted and underscored and the men get away with basically anything.

I've seen a lot of praise for Frankie because he generally is better than expected. Not only that, but he really is better than all the other guys, except for Jordan. He got the audience hooked from week one, he has a likeable personality and knows how to charm an audience, and he's humble. He's got the package, for me, and it does sound like the audience adores him. He's no David Ross, that's for sure; he can actually dance. 

As for Jordan and Lindsey, I know that people adore Lindsey and are rooting for her to win. I've seen nothing but praise online for her. It may not be as loud here, but the praise is out there. I've seen more of it on Twitter than for Jordan, personally. Well, it's her, Nikki, and Sasha who got a lot of the Twitter love, along with Victoria. 

I do agree that there are some signs of the women getting shafted, like last season with Nancy, Heather, and even Simone (though I personally didn't find Simone that great and noticed more mistakes than were called out). I only really liked Rashad, Nick, Nancy, and Heather last season. 

I do know that I personally didn't like Normani last season. I thought she was a terrific dancer and deserved to win, or at least get second. I hated that she got third and thought it was BS, but I could also see that David simply had more fans and Normani was probably hurt by the fact that her girl group most likely has more international fans who couldn't vote for her last season. I didn't like Normani all that much, but even I knew she deserved to get a better place than David. I just didn't like her in the way that I liked Nancy or Nick. But man, I did also love that Rashad won because he was my third favourite and a good dancer as well. Plus, it was a genuinely nice surprise that Normani didn't win like predicted at the beginning of the season. 

[spanana]

Thanks for bringing this over here. I think what is hard is that there are so many variables with DWTS that are hard to control.  It makes a difference what other celebs are cast in a particular season. Is it a competitive season or not? The same person might not have the same outcome in two different seasons. It matters who your pro partner is, their popularity, and how the general public feels about them at any particular time (did said partner just win, have they never won, are they new, etc.)  It matters how you and your pro portray yourself as a couple.  You can be Jordan/Lindsay who get along like gangbusters or you can be Vanessa/Maks who clearly can't stand each other.  The former is going to draw more loyalty from fans.  It matters what sort of choreography your pro puts together that season.  Pros tend to have on/off seasons in that department.

Additionally it also matters what sort of fanbase one has, whether or not it's current, etc.  See someone like Debbie who wasn't bad but not coming in with a current fanbase to get her through those first few weeks.  You can't win totally on a pre-existing fanbase (see Normani) but you need one to get you through the first several weeks until you can catch on with the main DWTS demos.  

It even matters the particularly format of that season. When is the first elimination? Is there a first week elimination? Are their double eliminations? Did somebody have to drop out?  Dance order matters particularly early in the season.  The show tends to bury people they want gone in the 2nd and 3rd position early on, usually the middle aged to older females (see Debbie, Kim Fields, Lea Thompson, and others of the sort). And that doesn't even take into account all the age and experience variables that we talk about endlessly, let alone the TPTB pimping which can be subjective.

Also for fear of getting too boards on boards, I'd argue that feelings on this board often don't line up with fans on Facebook or other places on the internet, or even the final outcome of the season.  For instance, Bindi was not a fave here and got plenty of criticism but yet she was the runaway fave where it mattered.  On this board, I think James had a lot of fans and many preferred him over Laurie but I don't know that means Laurie was generally hated in the bigger picture.

As I said in the other thread, while I do agree some people get more hate than others, I think it's often simplified. I couldn't even tell you the horrible things I saw written about Rashad and David. It's just that it wasn't often posted in the same places where the horrible Normani hate was located and it wasn't posted by the same people.  IMO, a lot of the more ridiculous hate comes from overinvested fans of a particular pro/celeb.  So for instance in S16 with Kellie Pickler versus Zendaya, most of the over the top Zendaya ringer/everything else hate was coming from uber fans of Derek who felt she was a threat to Derek's win. Yet likely these same Derek fans would have loved Zendaya if she had been paired with Derek, even with the same exact background/personality.  Everyone is more than welcome to preferences, it's the over the top hate that gets ridiculous.  Also particularly gross in the latter example when you had middle aged women sending direct hate to a 16 year old girl over something as silly as DWTS, but that is a different topic entirely.

Edited October 17, 2017 by spanana

[madpsych78]

Something I have wanted to state on the Disney Night thread but am stating here: Keep in mind with the male vs. female debate is that for each male celebrity, there is a female pro. And for each female celebrity, there is a male pro. So perhaps the bias is not necessarily towards the male celebrities but towards the female pros that are helping them to progress. Female pros not only have to teach the male celebs to dance but also have to make it look like they are leading (depending on the celeb's skill). Male pros do not have this issue. 

All in all, male vs. female is a moot point. 

[Toonces464]

1 hour ago, madpsych78 said:

Something I have wanted to state on the Disney Night thread but am stating here: Keep in mind with the male vs. female debate is that for each male celebrity, there is a female pro. And for each female celebrity, there is a male pro. So perhaps the bias is not necessarily towards the male celebrities but towards the female pros that are helping them to progress. Female pros not only have to teach the male celebs to dance but also have to make it look like they are leading (depending on the celeb's skill). Male pros do not have this issue. 

All in all, male vs. female is a moot point. 

I think overall the pros nowadays are much weaker than the pros they had when the show started. People like Witney, Emma, Alan and Keo are nowhere near the level of Karina, Cheryl, Tony or Louis as far as their talent and accomplishments. 

[PBGamer89]

Bringing this into perspective: about the special treatment. It's one thing to not give the under 18 crowd the Rumba for instance and that's understandable. but look at certain celebs.

 

James for example: He avoided both party Latin dances (that he likely would've struggled with) Salsa and Samba. He had Paso and Cha Cha Week 2 and 3 and then basically no fast Latin dances until his semifinals trio Jive, a Latin dance that doesn't require hip action.

Then in the finals he got a repeat Foxtrot, a style he tied for top on the premiere. Then the following night on the fusions he got two Ballroom styles as his fusion. I've never seen someone avoid Latin in such a way.

[madpsych78]

40 minutes ago, PBGamer89 said:

Bringing this into perspective: about the special treatment. It's one thing to not give the under 18 crowd the Rumba for instance and that's understandable. but look at certain celebs.

 

James for example: He avoided both party Latin dances (that he likely would've struggled with) Salsa and Samba. He had Paso and Cha Cha Week 2 and 3 and then basically no fast Latin dances until his semifinals trio Jive, a Latin dance that doesn't require hip action.

Then in the finals he got a repeat Foxtrot, a style he tied for top on the premiere. Then the following night on the fusions he got two Ballroom styles as his fusion. I've never seen someone avoid Latin in such a way.

I mean if TPTB went out of their way to keep James from dancing a Salsa and a Samba, then I would wonder why. I get Noah not doing the Jive because of the nature of his disability. James had had medical problems prior to DWTS, but his story wasn't like Victoria's. There's no medical reason that I know of that prevented James from doing a fast Latin dance involving hip action and he did a decent job with the Cha Cha Cha. 

If you go through all of the finalists - male and female - I bet that they all had dances they never learned. I don't think there was any conspiracy other than that it could be related to a known disability or due to age (in the case of Zendaya). Furthermore, I bet this was even more the case once they introduced Jazz and Contemporary as regular dances. 

[PBGamer89]

Back in S16 when Jazz and Contemporary were added to permanent rotation, you either did one or the other, not both.

Now, you have most couples doing both, sometimes back to back, you have various couples in the finals who have 1 or 2 Ballroom/Latin styles undone.

I would personally keep Contemporary and nix Jazz, no one on the show really knows how to do it right and it just comes off looking like a pre-finals freestyle, which makes the freestyles in the finals look like something thats already been done.

My view is that if you give someone a song that doesn't fit a typical Latin/Ballroom style, change the song. Kellie/Derek's Jazz was one of the only Jazz pieces on this show that actually resembled a Jazz that could be done on SYTYCD.

Edited October 18, 2017 by PBGamer89