Love in the Time of Walkers: Relationships in The Walking Dead

[Nashville]

As for the Shane death, it's been a while since I've seen those episodes but I thought there was a scene of her whispering in Rick's ear, and the implication it was all Lady Macbeth. That's why I was surprised at her reaction when he told her he'd killed Shane.

 

You thought right, although IIRC it was MUCH more than one scene. 

Throughout Season 2 Lori's paranoia about Shane grew, and with it her increased haranguing of Rick about what a threat Shane posed to her, to the baby, to Rick - to the point Lori was actively telling Rick he needed to kill Shane before Shane killed Rick.

 

And when Rick did end up killing Shane - not by choice - Lori's reaction was, "HOW COULD YOU??? YOU MURDERER!!!"

 

Which didn't surprise me in the least.  Typical Lori.

[Milks26]

Morgan is good paired with Carol. They help each other through their competing emotional traumas. I am sure Daryl will get a love interest eventually.

Michonne would have never worked with Morgan. If only because they have different perspectives on how to fight to protect the people that you love and she is for getting revenge on the occasional psychopath.

 

Michonne would've never worked with any of the black characters on the show thus far. Norman may have liked the idea of the pair...but I don't see them either. I would like more scenes with the two though.

 

Michoone's place is with Rick. I hate how they actually did it, after they took such slow effort to develop their bond. It just seemed lazy in the end. Then again, it is a ZA and life and death situations at every turn. And though I hate them, - Glenn and Maggie's eventual coupling was a lot worse, and I still don't see their chemistry. They're pretty just there to me.

 

I like Carol and Morgan but I have doubts if the show would go there. I just have a feeling that Morgan will refuse to enter into any relationship and stay true to his dead wife.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Milks26

[Pete Martell]

When I saw Daryl and Michonne I saw Norman and Michonne. I think Norman really wanted that pairing and put his heart into their scenes, but it was tough for me to see it as Daryl. I know Daryl and Andrea flirted, but that was a few seasons earlier. By that point in the run it was harder for me to believe based on how Daryl acted. 

 

I would enjoy seeing more of Daryl and Michonne platonically though. And I get why people ship them (and why people ship Rick/Michonne/Daryl OT3).

[SimoneS]

You thought right, although IIRC it was MUCH more than one scene. 

Throughout Season 2 Lori's paranoia about Shane grew, and with it her increased haranguing of Rick about what a threat Shane posed to her, to the baby, to Rick - to the point Lori was actively telling Rick he needed to kill Shane before Shane killed Rick.

Lori never encouraged Rick to kill Shane. She kept warning Rick that Shane was possessive and dangerous which he was. If she really wanted to Rick to kill Shane, all she had to do was tell Rick that Shane attempted to her rape at the CDC and that would have been the end of Shane.

Darabont wrote Lori horribly as Mazzara did Andrea. The two females characters were merely plot devices to further conflict between the two male antagonists.

Edited April 7, 2016 by SimoneS

[ghoulina]

I never really saw what Lori did as calculated and plotting either. And while she did kind of go back and forth with Shane herself (which I find understandable), I only recall one instance of her warning Rick about Shane. I don't know that it was really underhanded. I thought she was seeing how unhinged he was, and was genuinely concerned. It's not like Lori whispered a bunch of untruths in Rick's ears and he killed a completely innocent man. Shane drew his gun on Rick once and set up the entire search that final night on the farm with the goal of killing Rick.

 

The only thing I took issue with was her reaction after hearing what happened. I did think that was more about Carl witnessing it and putting down Zombie Shane. But so fucking what? That's the world we live in and he's going to have to face these things eventually. Yea, I felt badly for Rick with how his wife lashed out like he was some monster. But I do agree that it seemed out of character and perhaps a plot device, to create the gulf between them and increase Rick's man pain when she died with all that unfinished business between them. 

[rab01]

The only thing I took issue with was her reaction after hearing what happened. I did think that was more about Carl witnessing it and putting down Zombie Shane. But so fucking what? That's the world we live in and he's going to have to face these things eventually. Yea, I felt badly for Rick with how his wife lashed out like he was some monster. But I do agree that it seemed out of character and perhaps a plot device, to create the gulf between them and increase Rick's man pain when she died with all that unfinished business between them. 

Maybe I wasn't clear, it wasn't the warnings, it was absolutely her reaction after the fact. Sure, we can blame the writers but it was also believable for her character ... and, more importantly, her reaction happened on the show so I have to judge the character for it.  (Just like I judge Morgan and Carol badly for having a fight in front of a Wolf during a zombie herd attack.) That reaction was bad enough that I hated her forever after.

 

Side note -- I am not sure that her warnings to Rick were supposed to be just warnings or also statements from her guilty conscience about hooking up with Shane. She felt uncomfortable and projected onto Rick and Shane her feelings. So, her blaming Rick was also partly blaming herself.  -- Again, not saying that she "should" have felt guilty about sleeping with Shane but I think the character "did" feel guilty.  Side note 2 -- I always find it hard to understand why so many people stick up for Shane. Yes, he was more "ruthless" but he was also terribly ineffective. I still remember him blaming Rick for going into Atlanta to retrieve the guns and Merle and supposedly leaving CDB open for a zombie attack when all I saw was Shane doing a crappy job of setting guards for the camp and blaming everyone else.

[Eyes High]

Michonne would've never worked with any of the black characters on the show thus far. Norman may have liked the idea of the pair...but I don't see them either. I would like more scenes with the two though (...)

 

I like Carol and Morgan but I have doubts if the show would go there. I just have a feeling that Morgan will refuse to enter into any relationship and stay true to his dead wife.

 

Comic Michonne has said that she's only into black dudes, but TV Michonne has never said that (probably because Gimple was fixing for Richonne), and I couldn't see TV Michonne with any of the show versions of the guys she was interested in in the comics (Tyreese and Morgan). 

 

As for Carol/Morgan, Morgan is still wearing his wedding ring. I think it's pretty clear at this point that he cares about Carol deeply and is fascinated by her (thus his asking around about her past), but it may not and may never be romantic. With all that said, when Morgan asked Carol way back in 6x01 if she had been a cop before, it could be read as having had a flirty vibe; it could be that Morgan was initially interested in Carol, was put off by seeing her kill people firsthand and chide him for having a problem with hit, and now that they have achieved an understanding he's interested again.

 

I haven't seen Morgan smile at anyone the way he smiled at Carol in the finale: a genuine, warm, open smile. Even when he smiled at Rick's confession about Michonne stealing the protein bar, it was kind of...chilly, I don't know. When he was prevailing upon Carol to return to Alexandria, he didn't come out and that he cared about Carol himself, but when he plugged the Saviour six times to save her life, not long after Carol said that if you care about someone you'll kill for them....well, actions speak louder than words. Morgan may not be in love with Carol, but he does love her. On the other hand, he could have been in love with her this whole time and in denial about it because of all the Wolf drama and his wife. He has taken an interest in her all season, even when he didn't like her all that much; there was that shot of Morgan noticing that Carol was absent from the porch swing, suggesting that he somehow sensed there was something wrong before anyone else did, and in 6x12 he quietly expressed concern over the effect on Carol of keeping the Wolf incident secret ("You don't have to carry it"). He seemed to know Carol was heading for a breakdown before she did ("You don't like it," "You can't [kill me]"), although to be fair Morgan appears to have contributed to that breakdown.

 

When I saw Daryl and Michonne I saw Norman and Michonne. I think Norman really wanted that pairing and put his heart into their scenes, but it was tough for me to see it as Daryl. I know Daryl and Andrea flirted, but that was a few seasons earlier. By that point in the run it was harder for me to believe based on how Daryl acted. 

 

I would enjoy seeing more of Daryl and Michonne platonically though. And I get why people ship them (and why people ship Rick/Michonne/Daryl OT3).

 

Daryl and Michonne have a lot in common. I can definitely see them becoming close friends, since they both care about Rick so much (albeit in different ways).

Edited April 7, 2016 by Eyes High

[Nashville]

Lori never encouraged Rick to kill Shane.

Might want to re-check the last 2-3 minutes of S2E9 ("Triggerfinger"):

Lori (talking about Shane): You saw what he did at the barn. He's threatened Dale and Herschel. He's scaring people and he's scaring me. And I think he killed Otis. I think he left him behind and I think - I think he did it not just to save Carl but because he loves me...

Rick (interrupting): But you don't know that.

Lori (continuing): ...and he thinks that we're supposed to be together - no matter what.

Rick: Those gunmen left that kid behind today. I killed two people myself because of you, and Carl, and the baby. It was gonna be me and not them no matter what.

Lori: You killed the living to protect what's yours?

Rick: That's right.

Lori: Shane thinks I'm his. He thinks the baby's his. And he says you can't protect us, that you're gonna get us killed. He's dangerous, Rick, and he won't stop.

ETA: If that's not encouraging Rick to kill Shane, that's the next best thing to it. :)

Edited April 7, 2016 by Nashville

[AngelaHunter]

Quote

If that's not encouraging Rick to kill Shane, that's the next best thing to it. :)

 

Yes, she encouraged him to kill Shane then treated him like a monster because he did. That's what prompted the exchange at the prison, when Lori was trying to get back into his good graces. She told him she'd understand if he murdered the prisoners there and he said, "Yeah, you say that NOW."

[SimoneS]

Might want to re-check the last 2-3 minutes of S2E9 ("Triggerfinger"):

Lori (talking about Shane): You saw what he did at the barn. He's threatened Dale and Herschel. He's scaring people and he's scaring me. And I think he killed Otis. I think he left him behind and I think - I think he did it not just to save Carl but because he loves me...

Rick (interrupting): But you don't know that.

Lori (continuing): ...and he thinks that we're supposed to be together - no matter what.

Rick: Those gunmen left that kid behind today. I killed two people myself because of you, and Carl, and the baby. It was gonna be me and not them no matter what.

Lori: You killed the living to protect what's yours?

Rick: That's right.

Lori: Shane thinks I'm his. He thinks the baby's his. And he says you can't protect us, that you're gonna get us killed. He's dangerous, Rick, and he won't stop.

ETA: If that's not encouraging Rick to kill Shane, that's the next best thing to it. :)

I just re-watched that episode last week Lori was rightly warning Rick how dangerous Shane was. She only just realized how dangerous because Dale told her that he believed that he murdered Otis, and that Dale knew guys like that and eventually Shane would kill somebody else. When Lori asked Shane about it, he said that what happened because he loved her and Carl while insisting what they had was real. She warned her husband to protect him from an obsession man who attempted to rape her. Again, the fact is that if she really wanted Rick to kill Shane all she had to do was tell him about the attempted rape.

Edited April 8, 2016 by SimoneS

[Mattipoo]

I think Morgan and Carol will be a great pairing. I can see them bonding over their shared experiences especially after he saved her from getting killed by the savior who shot her. Poor Tobin though. He would have made a great husband to Carol because he is so nice and gentle unlike her abusive previous husband but too bad she just left him with a goodbye note.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Mattipoo

[SevenStars]

I just re-watched that episode last week Lori was rightly warning Rick how dangerous Shane was. She only just realized how dangerous because Dale told her that he believed that he murdered Otis, and that Dale knew guys like that and eventually Shane would kill somebody else. When Lori asked Shane about it, he said that what happened because he loved her and Carl while insisting what they had was real. She warned her husband to protect him from an obsession man who attempted to rape her. Again, the fact is that if she really wanted Rick to kill Shane all she had to do was tell him about the attempted rape.

If she didn't want him to kill Shane, why ask him if he was willing to kill the living to protect his family in a discussion in which she talks about how dangerous Shane is ? What did she want him to do after this discussion? Just keep looking over his shoulders for Shane and hired body guards to protect Lori when he is unable to ?

There were very limited choicest in their situation to deal with someone dangerous and Lori knew that.

To me, the writers connected these statements to show that Lori was basically telling, suggesting that Rick do something about Shane without going the direct route.

I honestly don't have a problem with Lori wanting Rick to kill Shane. My problem is with her reaction after Rick did kill Shane after spending all this time telling Rick how dangerous Shane was.

But that reaction didn't surprised me because it fits Lori's pattern of going back and forth in her actions/emotions where Rick and Shane were concern.

The writing for the women was shitty a lot of the time but I can't hold Rick responsible for his actions when he found out Lori was trying to abort the baby and then not hold Lori responsible for her actions on screen.

[AngelaHunter]

If she didn't want him to kill Shane, why ask him if he was willing to kill the living to protect his family in a discussion in which she talks about how dangerous Shane is ?

 

I did wonder if she would have thought Shane was so dangerous had Rick not appeared. To me, Shane was complicating her life and she wanted him gone for that reason.

[Nashville]

In that "Triggerfinger" scene - when Lori is leaning over Rick's back and talking at not much more than a loud whisper - did anybody else besides me get a definite Lady MacBeth vibe...?

[SevenStars]

I did wonder if she would have thought Shane was so dangerous had Rick not appeared. To me, Shane was complicating her life and she wanted him gone for that reason.

I think she really believe Shane was dangerous and she was right.

If Rick hadn't come along, I don't think she would have had a problem with Shane because at that point he wouldn't have been the man she cheated on with. He would have been the man who was willing to do whatever it took to protect her and Carl. No matter how dangerous he got, she would have justified it.

I hated this triangle and I think it did a number on all three characters.

[SimoneS]

If she didn't want him to kill Shane, why ask him if he was willing to kill the living to protect his family in a discussion in which she talks about how dangerous Shane is ? What did she want him to do after this discussion? Just keep looking over his shoulders for Shane and hired body guards to protect Lori when he is unable to ?

I thought she was trying to make sure that Rick understood how dangerous Shane was. However, the writers sucked using Lori as plot device.

I am repeating myself so I am stopping now.

[LeeMoon]

I think she really believe Shane was dangerous and she was right.

If Rick hadn't come along, I don't think she would have had a problem with Shane because at that point he wouldn't have been the man she cheated on with. He would have been the man who was willing to do whatever it took to protect her and Carl. No matter how dangerous he got, she would have justified it.

I hated this triangle and I think it did a number on all three characters.

I think she was testing Rick.

 

Lori kept both options open, Rick and Shane, in order to make sure Carl will always have someone to protect him. It might not have been the most noble thing to do, but it worked - Shane killed Otis in order to save Carl. Rick at that point wouldn't have done that. Rick gave him blood (a blood relative) while Shane killed for him. Carl lived because both options were working to save him.

 

She knew Shane could deliver on the protection side because he got her and Carl to safety during the initial breakout. On the other hand, Rick came back and he was her husband and Carl's dad. Shane stuck by her side, while Rick went away the minute he got back.

 

I think she wanted to be with Rick but she realized he wasn't as strong as Shane at that point. People hate her for being manipulative by using her affection as a tool to play Rick and Shane, but people forget that she kept Carl alive by assigning him a protector. If it was Carl and not Sophia that had gone missing, Shane would have gotten into a rage the minute he was gone and there would have been no situation of leaving Carl alone at the lake the same way Rick did with Sophia.

 

Lori wanted to see that Rick was ready to take Shane's place. There was a competition between them over her and she used it, but she did it in order to protect Carl, and Rick had to change his behavior and become more active in his protecting, even if it included killing his competition.

[ghoulina]

I did wonder if she would have thought Shane was so dangerous had Rick not appeared. To me, Shane was complicating her life and she wanted him gone for that reason.

 

I don't know if Shane would have been that dangerous had Rick not appeared. I'm not saying he wasn't a bit of a hot head to begin with. But I think that whole love triangle really fucked him up to the point of no return. I had the impression that Shane felt like he was always sort of in Rick's shadow in their adult lives. In HS, Shane was the ladies man who got all the girls. But I feel like Rick was regarded with more esteem on the job, and he was the one who settled down and had a family. I think there was some underlying jealousy there. 

 

When the fall happened, not only did Shane get to step into that family role, but he was pretty much the leader of that camp as well. I think he was loving it! Then Rick comes back, and Lori and Carl are once again with him, but also the group seems to gravitate more towards Rick. They're listening to him over Shane. 

 

I think Shane meant well, but it sort of drove him crazy. You could see, at times, just how much he still loved Rick. It wasn't just about Lori and Carl. I think he had a lot of guilt for leaving Rick in the hospital. I don't blame him, Rick appeared dead, but I'm sure he blamed himself. But then he still wanted what Rick had. He didn't know how to make peace with that. And they definitely had different ideas on how to run the group, and it drove him nuts how everyone just kept listening to Rick when Shane was sure those ideas would get them all killed. 

 

In the whole thing, I felt for all 3 of them. I think it was a bad situation and there was really no clean way out of it. They all made mistakes, but I think they all cared about each other and meant well too. It was just a tragedy. 

Edited April 8, 2016 by ghoulina

[Eyes High]

When the fall happened, not only did Shane get to step into that family role, but he was pretty much the leader of that camp as well. I think he was loving it! Then Rick comes back, and Lori and Carl are once again with him, but also the group seems to gravitate more towards Rick. They're listening to him over Shane. 

 

I think Shane meant well, but it sort of drove him crazy. You could see, at times, just how much he still loved Rick. It wasn't just about Lori and Carl. I think he had a lot of guilt for leaving Rick in the hospital. I don't blame him, Rick appeared dead, but I'm sure he blamed himself. But then he still wanted what Rick had. He didn't know how to make peace with that. And they definitely had different ideas on how to run the group, and it drove him nuts how everyone just kept listening to Rick when Shane was sure those ideas would get them all killed. 

 

In the whole thing, I felt for all 3 of them. I think it was a bad situation and there was really no clean way out of it. They all made mistakes, but I think they all cared about each other and meant well too. It was just a tragedy. 

 

There was something Shakespearean about Rick and Shane's continuing love for each other even as it became increasingly clear one of them was likely going to have to go. Rick's bitterness when he snarled at CDB "I killed my best friend for you people!" was palpable. It's too bad, because Rick doesn't have that kind of dramatically rich, layered, tortured relationship with anyone on the show currently. His relationship with Daryl, his current closest guy friend and his "brother," is pretty healthy and chill; even when Daryl apologized over the whole Claimer thing, Rick forgave him and that was that. It's great and all, especially since Rick being able to trust and rely on Daryl is invaluable, but it's a bit dramatically inert compared to Rick/Shane.

 

On the other hand, if a member of the group who went out to look for Daryl is Lucille's victim (so Rosita, Glenn, or Michonne), I have trouble believing that Rick wouldn't blame Daryl for putting them in danger. 

 

The irony is now that Rick has come around to Shane's way of thinking in many ways. How was blowing open the barn doors to unleash and kill the barn walkers to deal with the threat preemptively so different from Rick deciding to strike first and attack the Saviours' compound before they came calling to Alexandria? He is now in many respects the Shane to Morgan's Rick, as pointed out by the writers. I have trouble believing that Rick could do what Shane did to Otis, though; the closest he's ever come, I think, is hacking off Jessie's arm to free Carl, but Jessie was already doomed at that point, anyway.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Eyes High

[ghoulina]

I don't think the Barn opening was at all similar to the preemptive strike on The Saviors. For one, Walkers and people are two different animals. Walkers don't mean to hurt you, they just have to. But mainly because I never saw Shane's actions as just killing those walkers to keep them all safe. I saw it as a temper tantrum. He wanted to prove a point to everyone about Rick. It was impulsive and stupid, IMO. That was Hershel's property, and if he wanted to keep Walkers chained up in the barn, that's his choice. Shane could have left if it bothered him that badly. Or....he could have, ya know, climbed up to the loft in the barn and shot them all in the head, real easy. Instead he unleashed them all at once, around a bunch of people who had little to no experience dealing with Walkers. I really do not see that as the same as taking out a menacing human threat who already threatened 3 members of your group and is likely to kill more. 

[Ocean Chick]

I'm hoping they have someone worthy of Carol's love among the Knights of the Dusty Armor.  TF is plumb out of awesome dudes who are available. 

[AngelaHunter]

Quote

even when Daryl apologized over the whole Claimer thing, Rick forgave him and that was that.

 

That exchange really bothered me. Daryl's explaining what happened to Beth: "She was just GONE." Rick asks nothing else, I assume because he thought she got eaten, but I was waiting for Daryl to say something about the black car with the cross on the window - if only to warn the others about being kidnapped by such a car -  and he never uttered a peep about it. I know Daryl speaks as though words are a dollar each and he's a miser, but that annoyed the hell out of me.

[Nashville]

I think she was testing Rick.

 

Lori kept both options open, Rick and Shane, in order to make sure Carl will always have someone to protect him. It might not have been the most noble thing to do, but it worked - Shane killed Otis in order to save Carl. Rick at that point wouldn't have done that. Rick gave him blood (a blood relative) while Shane killed for him. Carl lived because both options were working to save him.

 

She knew Shane could deliver on the protection side because he got her and Carl to safety during the initial breakout. On the other hand, Rick came back and he was her husband and Carl's dad. Shane stuck by her side, while Rick went away the minute he got back.

 

I think she wanted to be with Rick but she realized he wasn't as strong as Shane at that point. People hate her for being manipulative by using her affection as a tool to play Rick and Shane, but people forget that she kept Carl alive by assigning him a protector. If it was Carl and not Sophia that had gone missing, Shane would have gotten into a rage the minute he was gone and there would have been no situation of leaving Carl alone at the lake the same way Rick did with Sophia.

 

Lori wanted to see that Rick was ready to take Shane's place. There was a competition between them over her and she used it, but she did it in order to protect Carl, and Rick had to change his behavior and become more active in his protecting, even if it included killing his competition.

 

So... Lori set the two stallions to fighting each other, and whichever one was left standing over the corpse of the other was the one she was going to ride?

Sounds like vintage Lori to me.

[Milks26]

 

 

There was something Shakespearean about Rick and Shane's continuing love for each other even as it became increasingly clear one of them was likely going to have to go. Rick's bitterness when he snarled at CDB "I killed my best friend for you people!" was palpable. It's too bad, because Rick doesn't have that kind of dramatically rich, layered, tortured relationship with anyone on the show currently. His relationship with Daryl, his current closest guy friend and his "brother," is pretty healthy and chill; even when Daryl apologized over the whole Claimer thing, Rick forgave him and that was that. It's great and all, especially since Rick being able to trust and rely on Daryl is invaluable, but it's a bit dramatically inert compared to Rick/Shane.

 

The irony is now that Rick has come around to Shane's way of thinking in many ways.   I have trouble believing that Rick could do what Shane did to Otis, though;

 

 

 

 

Yes, I also liked Rick & Shane's dynamic. I think if Shane saw Rick today even he would be appalled. That was one of his most vocal arguments - a man like Rick cannot survive in this world because he doesn't have the balls to go to certain extremes. But, I think Rick has done far worse than Shane could ever do. Shane killed Otis not just for he's survival but for a child he had come to see as his own. I think S2 Rick would've done the same thing. Plus, Shane did regret he's actions - but he also made peace with it.

 

@Eyes High Comic Michonne has said that she's only into black dudes, but TV Michonne has never said that (probably because Gimple was fixing for Richonne), and I couldn't see TV Michonne with any of the show versions of the guys she was interested in in the comics (Tyreese and Morgan).

 

I'm currently on the first compendium, and I'm so happy they did not take the character of Michoone the route of the comics. It would have literally killed me if they had done the same think on screen. Truth be told, Glenn & Maggie's relationship irritate me on both mediums. Lori is worse in the comics than he tv adaptation..

[SimoneS]

I don't think the Barn opening was at all similar to the preemptive strike on The Saviors. For one, Walkers and people are two different animals. Walkers don't mean to hurt you, they just have to. But mainly because I never saw Shane's actions as just killing those walkers to keep them all safe. I saw it as a temper tantrum. He wanted to prove a point to everyone about Rick. It was impulsive and stupid, IMO. That was Hershel's property, and if he wanted to keep Walkers chained up in the barn, that's his choice. Shane could have left if it bothered him that badly. Or....he could have, ya know, climbed up to the loft in the barn and shot them all in the head, real easy. Instead he unleashed them all at once, around a bunch of people who had little to no experience dealing with Walkers. I really do not see that as the same as taking out a menacing human threat who already threatened 3 members of your group and is likely to kill more. 

 

Yeah, I don't see the comparison there either, then again I never accept the Rick=Shane, Rick=Governor, Rick=Negan... argument that the show and some fans often make. There is too much cherry picking of actions taken out of context. Rick has made his own share of mistakes, but he is fundamentally a good person unlike these others, IMO.

[AngelaHunter]

Truth be told, Glenn & Maggie's relationship irritate me on both mediums.

 

Only saw the TV relationship and for some reason it's irritated me from Day 1. Glenn looked like such a child that the thought of Maggie being so overcome with lust for him that she'd whip her clothes off in the pharmacy with danger all around had me saying, "Oh, FFS!" I'm all for romance, but they became so saccharine, so syrupy I started to detest them. Well, maybe not individually but Glenn&Maggie as a unit.

[Peanut]

So wait.  After Glenn and Maggie hook up in the pharmacy, and later Rick asks him what he was thinking, what was his reply? Was it I was thinking I might die tomorrow or was it I was thinking it might be my last day on earth?

[ParadoxLost]

Yeah, I don't see the comparison there either, then again I never accept the Rick=Shane, Rick=Governor, Rick=Negan... argument that the show and some fans often make. There is too much cherry picking of actions taken out of context. Rick has made his own share of mistakes, but he is fundamentally a good person unlike these others, IMO.

 

I always thought that was more about their followers.  Leaders will rise in an apocalypse and they will all become more ruthless but that what the followers will do and accept or try to pretend isn't happening to survive is molded by whether their leader is at their core good or evil. 

[mandolin]

So wait. After Glenn and Maggie hook up in the pharmacy, and later Rick asks him what he was thinking, what was his reply? Was it I was thinking I might die tomorrow or was it I was thinking it might be my last day on earth?

It was Dale that asked him, and the response was something along the lines of he might be dead tomorrow.

[LeeMoon]

I wonder if we'll ever have this kind of epic Shakespearean relationship again on the show. Lori and Shane were complex characters, it's still interesting to talk about them today.

 

I think we care so much for the Atlanta five because they went through those slower earlier seasons where characters talked to each other and formed bonds. Newer characters are never given the chance to do that. The minute they open their mouth or form any connection with the original characters - bang! they're dead.

[Sighed I]

So wait.  After Glenn and Maggie hook up in the pharmacy, and later Rick asks him what he was thinking, what was his reply? Was it I was thinking I might die tomorrow or was it I was thinking it might be my last day on earth?

I love Easter eggs, so I skimmed a few episodes till I found the answer (in Chupacabra).

 

Turns out the conversation was with Dale, and Glenn says, "I was thinking that I might be dead tomorrow."

 

Edited to add: Oops, looks like mandolin beat me to the punch. Guess that skimming I did took longer than I thought. ;)

Edited April 9, 2016 by Sighed I

[Peanut]

Thanks, guys.  I don't know why that scene (sort of vaguely, obviously) popped into my head.  If he had said, "it might be my last day on earth," I was going to have to go back and change my vote in the poll.  

[mandolin]

I've watched the early seasons, um... A LOT. :p

[SimoneS]

Awww, i love Glenn and Maggie. They were my favorite tv couple until Rick and Michonne came along. Now Glenn and Maggie are my number two. I think that they are sweet and tough all at the same time. I also love that they have so much hope for the future despite everything and everyone they have both lost. I cling to hope that they both will get to see their baby's birth.

[Timetoread]

testing

[Timetoread]

Timetoread, don't make me cuddle up to you and kiss your shoulder multiple times! I told you I needed your words about Rick and Michonne all the time!

 

LOL!!!  I'll see what I can do about feeding your Richonne word jones for free.  It will kind of freak me out to wake up with a strange woman kissing my shoulder!

 

mightysparrow, on 05 Apr 2016 - 10:47 PM, said:

Very well said! 

I just wish Rick wasn't such a fucking asshole.

Your comment really was lovely.  Why are you posting on a message board when you SHOULD be writing for TWD?  Please make it happen.

 

This statement really moved me and it also made me realize that I've wasted my life. :/

 

Eyes High, on 06 Apr 2016 - 02:16 AM, said:

I think part of the problem with Morgan as a character…Carol's emotional crisis this season appears to have been precipitated at least in part by Morgan blowing holes in the lies Carol tells herself and everyone else: that she can live with the cost of killing, that no one can see through her happy homemaker disguise, that it's fine to play judge, jury and executioner, that there is no alternative to living the way she's been living other than self-imposed exile, that she can't stay in Alexandria because she's a danger due to her inability to kill, and finally, the most dangerous lie, that Carol's life is worthless and she deserves to die for the suffering she's inflicted on others. It's not explicit in 6x15, but I think Morgan feeling guilty about having contributed to Carol's breakdown might be motivating him to help search for her.

 

This is a really insightful post.  TBH I dislike both characters and I hired the same zombies that took out Family Von Porchdick to go after them.  But alas they were not successful.  Even that Savior that I hired ultimately failed - making excuses about catastrophic blood loss and whatnot.  That said, now you've made me actually think about these two.  I don't think it's really that Carol has to learn to live with the cost of killing or that Morgan has to learn to kill but that they both need to understand that the brutality of this world calls sometimes for them to reach into themselves and pull out equal brutality and to resort to violent extremes.  But to accept that within the context of the fact that they do these things not only for self preservation but for the protection of those that they love and who love them back.  That the summation of themselves is not how many they killed but WHY they killed and how many they saved.   When doing the math, they need to add up the love in their lives and what THAT means about them.  I think that was the point, that with war looming and innocents to protect, the strongest left Alexandria to retrieve Carol and Daryl respectively.  Not because either of them is helpless or needed help but because when someone you love runs out, looking for trouble, you run after them before they find it.  The show already showed this struggle with Rick and how it culminated with his decimation of Joe's group.  In the end, he and Michone were "ok" because they both accepted that this level of ferocity was acceptable if it kept Carl safe from the dangers of this world.  Michonne had already lost a child because other men weren't up to it.  But Carl walked away from Joe and his group of rapists/killers.  It was necessary and worth it.  In the end they have ended up finding the rarest jewel - true love in hell on earth.  Perhaps so will Carol and Morgan.  I don't love them but I'll admit that these two actors have almost as much chemistry as Andy and Danai.  I half expected Morgan to throw down the gun and make Carol forever forget the name Tobin.

 

Side note 2 -- I always find it hard to understand why so many people stick up for Shane.

 

Ok, I am one of the Shane apologists.  I do not think he was trying to kill Rick that day in the woods, I think he trained his gun on Rick as a ugly means of venting his frustration that Rick had returned and what that meant for him.  I also believe that he killed Otis for Carl and to prove to himself that he would do ANYTHING to protect Carl - something he didn't believe that Rick would do.  I also believe that he really did try to save Rick when everything went down and that he honestly believed that Rick was dead.  And it was his actions locking Rick in his hospital room that ultimately saved his life.  In addition I never saw his, admittedly reprehensible, attempt to strongarm Lori into showing him that she loved/wanted him as an attempted rape - I saw it as extremely bad behavior from a very drunk, very upset man.  Lori was right to fight him off, but the fact that she was able to do so with only a scratch to the face, makes me think that he didn't really want to take her against her will but that he wanted her to want him too - he wanted consensual sex, not rape and got far too pushy about it.  I think his feelings for Lori were real and I KNOW his feelings for Carl and Rick were.  I think he got the crappy end of a crappy stick (the whole, "even if it is your baby, it's not your baby") and he was in a bad mood the whole time and acted out on it.  I've read many posts that basically sum him up as another supervillain or a Governor equivalent, but I didnt' see that.  He wa mostly a good guy, who then went bad over a specific impetus, not in general service of evil and mayhem.  He had the same basic cop instincts as Rick and he helped keep a large group of people together before Rick even showed up.  He didn't randomly hurt or kill people in his group, which consisted of women and children and the elderly.  Even when Dale - whose hatred of Shane, IMO, was due to Andrea's interest in him - put a gun on him, Shane did not react violently or threaten or menace Dale.  When Shane went off on Hershel about his barn collection he was right and even Herschel admitted that Shane showed him the truth about the zombies.  He was also right when he suggested to Rick that perhaps they should stop looking for Sophia (putting the scouting groups in peril) because she was probably dead by this point - and she was, she was in Herschel's barn.   He ultimately wanted to leave the situation and should have, but LORI talked him into staying.  He was WONDERFUL with Carl, and he wasn't particularly misogynisitic - when Andrea said she wanted to learn how to fight, he taught her and it was she who put the moves on him.  Shane wasn't an all around bad guy - I don't believe Rick - who has pretty good instincts would have loved him so much if he were or let him anywhere near his son.  But he fell in love, in an apocalypse, and he was on the receiving end of a necessary but unfair and sudden breakup.  In one moment he lost his woman, the boy he was prepared to raise as his own, his unborn child and his best friend.  It was too much for him.  The ONE bad thing that I apply to Shane was his plan to kill Rick and I do believe that he paid the price that he should have for that.  Still, I found their final showdown to be one of the saddest moments on the the show for me.  I thought that the exchange between Carol and Andrea at the prison said it all and was in the spirit of it all: 

A: Where's Shane?

C: He tried to kill Rick and Rick had to kill him.

A: Shane loved Rick.

C: Shane loved Lori

 

As for Lori, I have never faulted her for her relationship with Shane.  Whether or not there were feelings present before the ZA.  We know she wasn't happy in her marriage and who knows if she and Shane quietly noticed each other - that just makes them human.  But from all that we are given, she was faithful to her marriage and neither one of them sought to betray Rick.  That was their story and I will believe it unless shown otherwise.  Lori did the right thing and stood by her husband when he returned.  I don't fault her for that either.  I applauded her for fighting off Shane at CDC and I agreed with her for protecting Shane by not telling Rick (Rick would have killed him).  Where I fault her is for not being honest about her own actions and her own feelings to the extent that things escalated to the point that two best friends sought to kill each other over her.  I fault her for the head game she played on Shane - asking him to stay but telling him that he couldn't claim a child that was most likely his.  And for the head game she played on Rick by explaining Shane's possessiveness as originiating from insanity or criminality but not as the direct result of precedent - that they had been in a reciprocal sexual relationship until the very minute that Rick came back.  She made Rick's response to Shane life or death when really it was emotional.   Those two should have had a fist fight not a fight to the death.   I think Lori was instrumental in the worst case scenario playing out.  And her famous disgust at Rick was, IMO, coming from her own feelings.  She put Rick to it but she wasn't prepared at how it would make HER feel when Rick killed the man she had been with and whose baby she was carrying.  I understood this reaction far more than her previous actions.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Timetoread

[Timetoread]

This video popped up on Tumblr. It was made a couple of years ago in response to the fandom nonsense surrounding the show Sleepy Hollow - which, as far as I'm concerned, fell on its own sword and which I will no longer watch. However everything he says applies to TWD and specifically Michonne. I've already made these arguments and was dismissed and disrespected by the usual suspects - people who will never, ever admit to either being outright racist or seeing that their viewpoint may have been formed by systemic racism. These people will never see my point as valid because they consider the source. I thought this was interesting because this comes from a different source.

At any rate, long live Richonne. Gimple made history and broke through a glass ceiling. I will always love him for that in spite of shitty cliffhangers.

[FilmPimp]

This video popped up on Tumblr. It was made a couple of years ago in response to the fandom nonsense surrounding the show Sleepy Hollow - which, as far as I'm concerned, fell on its own sword and which I will no longer watch. However everything he says applies to TWD and specifically Michonne. I've already made these arguments and was dismissed and disrespected by the usual suspects - people who will never, ever admit to either being outright racist or seeing that their viewpoint may have been formed by systemic racism. These people will never see my point as valid because they consider the source. I thought this was interesting because this comes from a different source.

At any rate, long live Richonne. Gimple made history and broke through a glass ceiling. I will always love him for that in spite of shitty cliffhangers.

http://youtu.be/ytnyJ5QhuyQ

Blackgirlnerds had a great article on the Richonne romance and its implications on the wider cultural landscape. Good read. You should check it out.

http://blackgirlnerds.com/what-shipping-richonne-taught-me-about-racism/

[SimoneS]

Ok, I am one of the Shane apologists.  

 

I thought Darabont and Mazzara using Lori as a plot device to further the Rick/Shane conflict was torturous enough, but your comment rationalizing Shane’s obsessive murderous behavior along with his attempted rape of Lori took it to another level. 

 

It is too bad that Gimple wasn’t in charge from the start. If he was, I am sure that the writing would avoided Lori using as the scapegoat for Shane's psychotic behavior.

[rab01]

Ok, I am one of the Shane apologists.  I do not think he was trying to kill Rick that day in the woods, I think he trained his gun on Rick as a ugly means of venting his frustration that Rick had returned and what that meant for him.  I also believe that he killed Otis for Carl and to prove to himself that he would do ANYTHING to protect Carl - something he didn't believe that Rick would do.  I also believe that he really did try to save Rick when everything went down and that he honestly believed that Rick was dead. 

When I said that I don't understand the people sticking up for Shane, I mean that I don't understand everyone who says that Shane would have been a better leader or that Shane was right in their various arguments (or HArdwick's constant crap about Rick becoming like Shane).  What I saw was someone who was ready to blame everyone else when things went wrong and was a piss-poor leader.  Rick was always the one who did the hard thing and had to make the tough choice (e.g., at the barn, he was the one who had to put down Sophia) while Shane kind of enjoyed complaining about other people's decisions. If Shane were a better leader, the group wouldn't have instantly coalesced around Rick, rather than Shane.

 

I agree however that Shane wasn't supposed to be eeeeeevil. The Rick-Lori-Shane triangle was a true triangle in that Rick and Shane loved each other at least as much as they each loved Lori so I didn't blame Shane for his feelings.  How he acted on them, however, was on him (and on Lori a little bit).  As for the details, I do think that Shane was about to pull the trigger on Rick in the woods until he was interrupted but I agree with you that he killed Otis partly to prove himself to Lori.

[SimoneS]

I always thought that was more about their followers.  Leaders will rise in an apocalypse and they will all become more ruthless but that what the followers will do and accept or try to pretend isn't happening to survive is molded by whether their leader is at their core good or evil. 

 

Yeah, I always think “birds of a feather…” in situations like these. Some people are attracted to leaders like Rick, Guillermo (the Vatos), Gregory, others to Shane, Phillip, Negan, Joe, Dawn, etc. When we first encounter Shane and the group, he is having an argument with Lori and Amy who want to go after the others, but he refuses to do so. Then Rick shows up and decides he is going back not for the bag of guns and Merle. The difference between Rick and Shane is almost immediately clear so people start to listen to Rick over Shane. As Shane becomes more erratic and his judgment more suspect, except for Andrea, people look to Rick for leadership.

 

Or maybe the truth is that when some people are afraid they are willing to do anything or give up anything to survive so they go along with the leader who makes them feel safe. Look at the people at the hospital, they refused to go with Rick even as they were subjected to near servitude and rape by the leaders there.

Edited April 11, 2016 by SimoneS

[RedheadZombie]

I don't know if Shane would have been that dangerous had Rick not appeared. I'm not saying he wasn't a bit of a hot head to begin with. But I think that whole love triangle really fucked him up to the point of no return. I had the impression that Shane felt like he was always sort of in Rick's shadow in their adult lives. In HS, Shane was the ladies man who got all the girls. But I feel like Rick was regarded with more esteem on the job, and he was the one who settled down and had a family. I think there was some underlying jealousy there. 

 

When the fall happened, not only did Shane get to step into that family role, but he was pretty much the leader of that camp as well. I think he was loving it! Then Rick comes back, and Lori and Carl are once again with him, but also the group seems to gravitate more towards Rick. They're listening to him over Shane. 

 

I think Shane meant well, but it sort of drove him crazy. You could see, at times, just how much he still loved Rick. It wasn't just about Lori and Carl. I think he had a lot of guilt for leaving Rick in the hospital. I don't blame him, Rick appeared dead, but I'm sure he blamed himself. But then he still wanted what Rick had. He didn't know how to make peace with that. And they definitely had different ideas on how to run the group, and it drove him nuts how everyone just kept listening to Rick when Shane was sure those ideas would get them all killed. 

 

In the whole thing, I felt for all 3 of them. I think it was a bad situation and there was really no clean way out of it. They all made mistakes, but I think they all cared about each other and meant well too. It was just a tragedy. 

 

I think Shane's descent began with the realization that he'd left his capable of surviving best friend behind.  Rationally, he may know that there was no way he could pick Rick up and get him out, but he probably didn't look at it that way.  And while the "loss" of Lori and Carl wasn't easy, I think it was the knowledge that Rick and Lori wouldn't even consider the possibility of his being the father of her pregnancy that started the beginning of the end.  Part of the torment of living in the post-ZA world, is losing most or even all of your loved ones.  Shane essentially had no one at this point and that baby was a blood connection, in his mind.   But I think the guilt of killing Otis is what ultimately did him in.  And, for me, just me, that was proof that Shane wasn't a monster without a conscious. 

 

There was something Shakespearean about Rick and Shane's continuing love for each other even as it became increasingly clear one of them was likely going to have to go. Rick's bitterness when he snarled at CDB "I killed my best friend for you people!" was palpable. It's too bad, because Rick doesn't have that kind of dramatically rich, layered, tortured relationship with anyone on the show currently. His relationship with Daryl, his current closest guy friend and his "brother," is pretty healthy and chill; even when Daryl apologized over the whole Claimer thing, Rick forgave him and that was that. It's great and all, especially since Rick being able to trust and rely on Daryl is invaluable, but it's a bit dramatically inert compared to Rick/Shane.

 

On the other hand, if a member of the group who went out to look for Daryl is Lucille's victim (so Rosita, Glenn, or Michonne), I have trouble believing that Rick wouldn't blame Daryl for putting them in danger. 

 

The irony is now that Rick has come around to Shane's way of thinking in many ways. How was blowing open the barn doors to unleash and kill the barn walkers to deal with the threat preemptively so different from Rick deciding to strike first and attack the Saviours' compound before they came calling to Alexandria? He is now in many respects the Shane to Morgan's Rick, as pointed out by the writers. I have trouble believing that Rick could do what Shane did to Otis, though; the closest he's ever come, I think, is hacking off Jessie's arm to free Carl, but Jessie was already doomed at that point, anyway.

 

I have to begin with a disclaimer that I love Rick, because any criticism of him is reacted to strongly.    I think a comparison to Shane opening the barn of walkers is Rick conquering Alexandria.  Upthread there was criticism that Shane had no business releasing the walkers, it was Hershel's farm and his right to keep ravening monsters within feet of CDB's camp, and if Shane didn't like it he could leave.  I think Rick did a similar thing when CDB entered Alexandria.  In short order, Rick was telling Carol that he was going to seize power.  Similar to Shane, Rick was abusing the hospitality of the people providing him shelter, Rick decided he knew better than the leader and citizens of Alexandria, and Rick had a screaming hysterical meltdown that only ended because Michonne knocked him out.  Now I know the responses will be - Rick was right, Rick did the right thing, those folks were morons seriously deluded about the ZA.  And that last could have been said about the Greens, back on the farm.  I don't like the way Shane went about it, but it was time for Hershel to wake up to the ZA.  And they would still be searching for Sophia if not for the barn reveal.

 

   Those two should have had a fist fight not a fight to the death. 

 

Rick and Shane had that fistfight in 18 Miles Out.  It seemed like they were going to resolve things, and Shane looked so happy when Rick and Randall came back to save him.  But I think Shane was just too far gone at that point.  If the world was still normal, Shane may have found help in therapy and psychiatric meds, but that world is gone.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

After that fight, it seemed like Shane was prepared to take the L and move on.

Then Lori came to apologize to him, which I think she was sincere.

But he took it another way, then it was off to crazytown again.

[ghoulina]

Exactly. There was too much back and forth. And, again, I don't think any of that was intentional. I think everyone was on a damn emotional roller coaster. But if confused Shane. He would have been better off leaving with Andrea early on in season 2. 

[Ocean Chick]

I half expected Morgan to throw down the gun and make Carol forever forget the name Tobin.

 

 

Oh, believe me, Carol doesn't need anyone's help with this.  She's already forgotten the name of WhiteRIce McRedShirt.  And she deserves someone a lot better than Morgan - I don't see any chemistry between the actors.

[Nanrad]

Blackgirlnerds had a great article on the Richonne romance and its implications on the wider cultural landscape. Good read. You should check it out.

http://blackgirlnerds.com/what-shipping-richonne-taught-me-about-racism/

"We’re happy because these are two characters who have had chemistry for 3 seasons, and race was the only possible reason for them not to eventually happen, but AMC had bigger balls than anyone expected and so they happened anyway." She right!!!

Edited April 11, 2016 by Nanrad

[AngelaHunter]

but AMC had bigger balls than anyone expected and so they happened anyway."

 

Do they think they're ground-breaking? AMC, which veotes "bad words" and makes Rick says "SCREWING with the wrong people", and Abe say things like "Mother dick" and "mixing Bisquick". Okay, I guess none of them ever saw or heard of the 1960's episode of the original Star Trek, titled "Plato's Stepchildren."  And here I was under the mistaken impression that this was a show for adults.

 

What a mother-dicking load of bullcaca.

[Timetoread]

Oh, believe me, Carol doesn't need anyone's help with this. She's already forgotten the name of WhiteRIce McRedShirt. And she deserves someone a lot better than Morgan - I don't see any chemistry between the actors.

Poor Tobin! LMAO. He gets no respect!

Oh, believe me, Carol doesn't need anyone's help with this. She's already forgotten the name of WhiteRIce McRedShirt. And she deserves someone a lot better than Morgan - I don't see any chemistry between the actors.

No, she doesn't. These two assholes deserve each other and should stay far away from what is left of humanity.

Rick and Shane had that fistfight in 18 Miles Out. It seemed like they were going to resolve things, and Shane looked so happy when Rick and Randall came back to save him. But I think Shane was just too far gone at that point. If the world was still normal, Shane may have found help in therapy and psychiatric meds, but that world is gone.

In the normal world Shane may have found help having someplace to actually go, a DNA test, and a custody hearing. Edited April 11, 2016 by Timetoread

[Ocean Chick]

I very fondly remember "Plato's Stepchildren"!  I shipped Uhura and Kirk so VERY hard back then.  They were one of my very first ships, in fact.  And now I've just aged myself.  LOL

[MrsRafaelBarba]

I very fondly remember "Plato's Stepchildren"!  I shipped Uhura and Kirk so VERY hard back then.  They were one of my very first ships, in fact.  And now I've just aged myself.  LOL

Fellow Old Head here!

First interracial kiss on network tv.