S04.E05: Haunted

[Ariah]

I didn't read the delicate hand rubbing as erotic, but rather reassuring, grounding the other person in "here and now" rather than the past.

[apinknightmare]

Because my curiosity always gets the best of me, how was that hand holding erotic? To me it seemed like a couple being a couple during an emotional moment. I mean, their hands were just clasped together, lmao.

[Guest]

I didn't see their hand holding as erotic at all. It was just a very sweet moment of connection. I loved that they just needed to touch each other. I also see it as reinforcing the difference now that they're in a romantic relationship. In previous seasons they wouldn't have sat so close and they wouldn't be touching. It's different now.

[writersblock51]

I think the hands/touching during a quietly emotional talk was to provide comfort and a connection.  But perhaps it's a YMMV thing?  My spouse and I didn't  actively decide "let's make eye contact and gently touch the other person" during serious discussions, we just started doing it while we were dating (many years ago).  So I took my personal experience and definitely felt that's what was happening on screen for that scene.

 

I also think Oliver and Felicity are simply a touchy-feely couple.  They've been touching each other for years, with shoulder squeezes, hands on elbows and all that ... Now they get to do it all the time, openly.  I personally love it!  

[Guest]

I can't remember who it was but someone was worrying that they used an O/F theme over the O/L scenes in this episode but they didn't. Apparently it was from S1 and the song is called 'Scars.' 

[BkWurm1]

Because my curiosity always gets the best of me, how was that hand holding erotic? To me it seemed like a couple being a couple during an emotional moment. I mean, their hands were just clasped together, lmao.

I have no idea how that scene could possibly be viewed as inappropriate erotic hand holding. But that's what I was told. Also, clearly Felicity feels there are cracks in her relationship with Oliver and fears he will cheat on her since she mentioned being glad Constantine wasn't another gorgeous woman.

[bijoux]

I have no idea how that scene could possibly be viewed as inappropriate erotic hand holding. But that's what I was told. Also, clearly Felicity feels there are cracks in her relationship with Oliver and fears he will cheat on her since she mentioned being glad Constantine wasn't another gorgeous woman.

Where is this coming from?

There's a great little moment in Thea's hospital room when she wakes up and Oliver and Felicity approach her. As they do, Felicity looks at her heart monitor. It felt like such a genuine Felicity reaction, relying on technology. But man Thea must have been on some strong drugs there. She was sleeping then, then later when Laurel was waiting at her bedside AND when Sara showed up. How long was that hospital stay, anyhow?

Do motor vehicles in Star City not have licence plates? I noticed long ago that Oliver's bike didn't have one but now I also see Lance's car doesn't have any. What gives?

Also, since the Verdant set is still around, is there a chance of it being used again for some purpose? It's a pretty big set.

[looptab]

I can't remember who it was but someone was worrying that they used an O/F theme over the O/L scenes in this episode but they didn't. Apparently it was from S1 and the song is called 'Scars.'

It was me :) Thank you for the title, I checked only the S2 and S3 soundtrack and couldn't find it. I still think it was a terrible mistake, though, ahah.

[BkWurm1]

Where is this coming from?

 

Conversations with the dark side aka the site that shall not be named.  Just wanted to share the "insights" that were so kindly shared with me.  

 

I feel it is good to know a diverse set of opinion.  FAR more entertaining that way, lol. 

Edited November 6, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Delphi]

Conversations with the dark side aka the site that shall not be named. Just wanted to share the "insights" that were so kindly shared with me. Insert eye roll.

Because of course it's that site. I am so glad that I don't even bother going to that erm netherworld anymore. Keeps me much more emotionally stable.

[apinknightmare]

Conversations with the dark side aka the site that shall not be named. Just wanted to share the "insights" that were so kindly shared with me.

I feel it is good to know a diverse set of opinion. FAR more entertaining that way, lol.

Oh good. No offense, but when you posted that I thought it was you own opinion and I got a little worried!

[Guest]

Conversations with the dark side aka the site that shall not be named.  Just wanted to share the "insights" that were so kindly shared with me.  

 

I feel it is good to know a diverse set of opinion.  FAR more entertaining that way, lol. 

 

I also thought it was you so haha! But that's interesting though. They still thought O/F holding hands was erotic. But I thought they had no chemistry…? LMAO.

[kismet]

If that was erotic... I wonder what they thought of 320? I also wonder what they will think of

synchronicity kiss

?

 

I also shudder to imagine them watching any R rated movies or a basic/premium Cable TV program. And the rest of my line of questioning would not be civil, so I will leave it out. ;)

Edited November 6, 2015 by kismet

[bijoux]

To be fair, hands used to demonstrate sexual tension is a pretty old notion. And it can be used very effectively. It just didn't play that way here.

[BkWurm1]

Oh good. No offense, but when you posted that I thought it was you own opinion and I got a little worried!

Oh, that was not nice of me at all!  Ha,ha,ha,ha.  I was trying hard not to state it in a way that was talking about other fans, so framed it in a third person kind of question and apparently did a bit too good a job. 

 

I was curious if anyone else had run across reactions like that. 

I also thought it was you so haha! But that's interesting though. They still thought O/F holding hands was erotic. But I thought they had no chemistry…? LMAO.

 

Ha!  I didn't think to point that out but I did mention while I only got comfort and closeness and trust out of that scene, more power to anyone who got turned on. 

[AyChihuahua]

How can two people in a relationship doing whatever they want to with their hands in the privacy of their own home be inappropriate?

 

Also, how much chemistry do O and F have if just them holding hands is erotic?  Doesn't that kind of undermine O and L?

[apinknightmare]

All that knuckle rubbing. So much heat!

[bijoux]

All that knuckle rubbing. So much heat!

It's the friction.

[lemotomato]

So, thumb war = sex scene?

[BkWurm1]

Also, how much chemistry do O and F have if just them holding hands is erotic?  Doesn't that kind of undermine O and L?

 

Oh, it's just the actors obviously trying too hard. Still not sure what that means.

It's the friction.

I guess a blister is pornographic now. 

Edited November 6, 2015 by BkWurm1

[AyChihuahua]

Oh, it's just the actors obviously trying too hard. Still not sure what that means.

Do you have any understanding of why it could be considered inappropriate if it was erotic? 

[BkWurm1]

Do you have any understanding of why it could be considered inappropriate if it was erotic? 

It wasn't said in so many words but my understanding was because Oliver was trying to talk about serious subjects like the loss of his mother and Tommy and Felicity was just feeling him up thus being insensitive to the moment. 

 

It was suggested that the writers and directors and actors frequently push to get in "feels" even if they are inorganic to the moment, thus making any attempt at projecting a romantic relationship feel unnatural.  That the push to make the moment romantic was unbalanced and too distracting from the more important conversation.   

[dtissagirl]

Dude, you gotta quit that place.

[BkWurm1]

Dude, you gotta quit that place.

Honestly, when I read these reactions I had the same thought.  It's one thing to have a different opinion but another to realize the differences are more akin to hearing about how the sky is green and the grass is zebra striped. 

[AyChihuahua]

Dude, you gotta quit that place.

It's obviously a generally beneficial thing to take in opinions on subjects from lots of different people and places while making up your own mind.  This forum has helped me develop my views about the show and has even helped me see a scene differently from my initial impression so that it makes sense.  But that requires a sufficiently high percentage of posters who are basically intellectually honest. 

 

So yeah, you gotta quit that place.

[BkWurm1]

Of course everyone knows by know the reason I can't is because secretly at heart I'm a rabble rouser.  Not to mention if I don't speak my mind about Laurel's rather precious qualities, nobody else will. 

 

Yeah, I got to quit that place. 

[MsSchadenfreude]

Finally saw the episode and everyone has already said everything I was thinking. But I do have to give a shout out to my two favorite lines.

 

Damian Darhk's "Are you sticking around for a cupcake?" and Oliver's "I need you to punch me in the face"

 

Also, there wasn't nearly enough crazy in the soul resurrection.  I wanted "AWESOME RIDICULOUSNESS" and at best I got "eh ridiculousness."  I mean I enjoyed Oliver and Laurel stopping to watch Constantine fight as much as the next person, but I needed more show.

[AyChihuahua]

It wasn't said in so many words but my understanding was because Oliver was trying to talk about serious subjects like the loss of his mother and Tommy and Felicity was just feeling him up thus being insensitive to the moment. 

 

It was suggested that the writers and directors and actors frequently push to get in "feels" even if they are inorganic to the moment, thus making any attempt at projecting a romantic relationship feel unnatural.  That the push to make the moment romantic was unbalanced and too distracting from the more important conversation.   

I was just thinking...they're in a relationship now.  They were home alone.  If she was trying to get all up in his business, she'd be...rubbing...something other than his hand.

[apinknightmare]

Maybe a little erotic hand holding is how things get started in the Smoak/Queen household.

[lemotomato]

All the talk about hand rubbing reminded me of Oliver's nervous tic. Have we seen him do that at all this season?

[NumberCruncher]

Clearly Oliver wasn't so distracted by Felicity's "erotic" hand stroking that he couldn't reach the conclusion that Sara was targeting Thea look-a-likes so I don't get how it makes any difference whatsoever.

[Sakura12]

As a non-shipper I didn't find it erotic, but I did find that scene very sweet and liked that it showed them acting like a normal couple, despite the fact that they were talking about their back from the dead zombie friend and all the people they lost. 

[bijoux]

Maybe a little erotic hand holding is how things get started in the Smoak/Queen household.

 

Well, they did hold hands in NP so you may be onto something.

 

All the talk about hand rubbing reminded me of Oliver's nervous tic. Have we seen him do that at all this season?

Not as far as I remember.

[InsertWordHere]

So, thumb war = sex scene?

Apparently I've been having erotic moments with a lot more people than I previously thought. Oops.

[apinknightmare]

No glove, no love!

[bijoux]

[kieyra]

Topic, this episode was when my good-naturedly Laurel-apologist significant other finally yelled "Shut up, Laurel."

So all in all it was a win.

Really clunky episode, though, the whole thing just felt half-assed. I've admittedly never found Constantine terribly compelling, and this didn't change that.

I guess my favorite part was that Felicity now has a Felicity.

And I'm veto'ing Thea and the new campaign manager. He is no Roy.

[AyChihuahua]

Roy really is the best.  I think he's the second-best PERSON on the show.  (Walter's the very best person, obviously.)

[statsgirl]

It's on TV at 8 p.m.  That's as erotic as it's allowed to get, with a significant exception last season.

 

Really, what I got out of it is the continuity that Felicity is a very touchy person when she's not trying to shut herself down.  She was touchy with Ray, which I absolutely hated but now understand, and she's been touchy with Oliver a few times around the Team.  Validates all that fanfic from over the Summer of Love.

 

 

I get why Thea might be saying this, what I don't get is why Oliver doesn't say anything to her*, something like, "Do you not remember when he wanted to lock me up for the rest of my life? How about Roy? Remember him?"

I don't know the in-show reasons he didn't say anything (maybe he's happy and doesn't want to fight with her?) but in real life, the reason would be that Thea wouldn't be able to hear it.  She grasped on to Laurel as a friend and built up the relationship in her mind. And who knows, maybe Quentin felt sorry for himself and for her and spent some time with Thea over the summer.

 

Every therapist I know has one or more stories of a patient coming to a realization and saying "Why didn't you tell me that before?" and the therapist thinking 'I did, years ago'.

[ohjoy]

All the talk about hand rubbing reminded me of Oliver's nervous tic. Have we seen him do that at all this season?

Actually yes, I noted it in the premiere, when he and Felicity realized the bombs were coming in on the train. He gets up from his seat and joins the group standing behind Felicity, and he's doing the hand tic when everyone goes to suit up. (Sorry, I have no gif-making abilities). Since the train epiphany happens after his (very justified) "everybody hates me and we should never have come back here," I'm guessing the tic is a delayed reaction to that as he's trying to work with team again.

But I haven't seen it since then.

ETA: Did this episode finally break quarks? I was particularly looking forward to her analysis of Laurel this week.

Edited November 7, 2015 by RandomMe

[calliope1975]

I was wondering what happened to quarks as well. She might still be working on the list of how Laurel failed as character this episode. It could be an entire NaNoWriMo project.

Edited November 7, 2015 by calliope1975

[Starfish35]

Yeah, I was missing quarks' post too.

[arjumand]

It's on TV at 8 p.m.  That's as erotic as it's allowed to get, with a significant exception last season.

 

Really, what I got out of it is the continuity that Felicity is a very touchy person when she's not trying to shut herself down.  She was touchy with Ray, which I absolutely hated but now understand, and she's been touchy with Oliver a few times around the Team.  Validates all that fanfic from over the Summer of Love.

 

 

I don't know the in-show reasons he didn't say anything (maybe he's happy and doesn't want to fight with her?) but in real life, the reason would be that Thea wouldn't be able to hear it.  She grasped on to Laurel as a friend and built up the relationship in her mind. And who knows, maybe Quentin felt sorry for himself and for her and spent some time with Thea over the summer.

 

Every therapist I know has one or more stories of a patient coming to a realization and saying "Why didn't you tell me that before?" and the therapist thinking 'I did, years ago'.

 

I get that, really I do. I think my problem is that I didn't even see a reaction on Oliver's face when Thea said that outrageous "Quentin helped us after mom died" thing. Or maybe I need to rewatch the episode - I may have to mute the bit when Laurel starts with her 'but what about meeeeeeeeee' schtick.

 

See, one of things I've liked about the show are the Oliver reaction shots - for example, annoyed Oliver, pissed off Oliver, and destroyed Oliver when Felicity unloaded on him last season (eg. after Sara died). It was always: character says something outrageous/hurtful - cut to Oliver's reaction. While this time it kinda just passed by, like Oliver bought it. Like the show bought it. I was just, WHAT.

 

And it's clearly, to me, a tactic to tell us (not show us) that QL is the Queens' bestest friend so we're invested in the character. It also gives me the impression that not much long-term planning goes into the show, because if they'd always meant QL to be Friend To The Queen Family, why did they make him such a vindictive asshole in Season 3?

 

My problem is also that I understand the point Thea's trying to make, I just wish she would be written better, and that she would make it without incorporating Lance family drama in her argument - basically, she doesn't want her brother to turn into a politician - opportunistic and dishonest. And abandoning his friends, no matter how annoying we might find them, would be a first step in that direction. Also, I find it interesting that in the flashbacks, when Oliver is supposed to be approaching his darkest self, he is still "pure of heart". While in present day, he's going into the world of politics, which is a filthy business. I wonder if the showrunners aren't pulling a long con on us, or is that too clever for them?

[BkWurm1]

I get that, really I do. I think my problem is that I didn't even see a reaction on Oliver's face when Thea said that outrageous "Quentin helped us after mom died" thing.

 

The thing is, Oliver wasn't at all around after Moira died.  Maybe Quentin was kind and helpful back then.  Oliver just vanished and then Thea ran away.  Maybe Oliver just assumed Quentin being great to their family happened when he wasn't around? 

[arjumand]

That's an idea, lol.

 

Maybe we're going to get retconned flashbacks of Quentin being wonderful to Thea in the time between Moira's funeral and Thea running off with Malcolm. I just can't with this show.

 

Case in point - Chinese tattoo. I mean, seriously, what. And the fact that he still has it, does it mean he hasn't found out what it's for, yet? I liked the look Oliver gave Constantine, though.

 

"The fuck did you just do?"

[kismet]

That tattoo scene was laughable. I'm glad they addressed it. I wonder if it was always their plan, or if they had another origin story for it. I bet they did because how were they to know they would be able to secure Constantine in s1? Wonder if it changes the purpose of the tatto from a writing perspective now that they may have changed the origin story.

[dtissagirl]

Guggenheim said in one of the recent interviews that they had a plan for the tattoo in Hong Kong last season.

 

Since that obviously didn't happen, Brian Ford Sullivan came up with this one.

 

 

Edit: Found the quote, it's from the Deadline interview:

http://deadline.com/2015/11/arrow-constantine-spoilers-flash-marc-guggenheim-matt-ryan-legends-of-tomorrow-batman-1201606994/
 

GUGGENHEIM: That was something that writer Brian Ford Sullivan had pitched us with this episode. Originally our intention was to do something different with the tattoo. We were actually going to reveal something completely different, non-mystical about the tattoo last year with the Hong Kong story line.

 

It’s funny, even though we do 23 episodes a year, you would think our biggest problem would be filling up those episodes. We actually have the opposite problem, which is a lot of ideas don’t make it into a given 23-episode season. So the question of the tattoo was sort of lingering out there, something that we had to cover, and Brian came to us with this really terrific pitch. We instantly loved it and you haven’t seen the last of that tattoo playing an important role in Season 4.

Edited November 7, 2015 by dtissagirl

[kismet]

Guggenheim said in one of the recent interviews that they had a plan for the tattoo in Hong Kong last season.

Since that obviously didn't happen, Brian Ford Sullivan came up with this one.

Edit: Found the quote, it's from the Deadline interview:

http://deadline.com/2015/11/arrow-constantine-spoilers-flash-marc-guggenheim-matt-ryan-legends-of-tomorrow-batman-1201606994/

Thanks! All I could remember from MGs responses about the tattoo was his generic goto "keep watching". Knew there had to be more. Feel like Brian Ford Sullivan is going to get promotion next season if this one goes well. His name gets dropped a lot and he seems full of cool and believable ideas that seem organic ;) to the story.

[tv echo]

When you're talking about the loss of other people, it's natural to want the reassurance that the person you love is warm and alive by touching them (reaffirming life while talking about death).  It felt very organic to me.

Edited November 7, 2015 by tv echo

[kismet]

It felt very organic to me.

But did it feel earned?

Lol. Couldn't resist :)