S13.E06: Bunking With The Devil

[peachmangosteen]

Yes. I'll repeat my surprise from the other week that no one seemed interested in being Woo's new Tony.

 

It seemed like Ciera was afraid Andrew might be Woo's new Tony and that is bad for everyone.

 

I may be the only one but I really don't like how twitter, and the many interviews from evicted people, have changed how we watch the show.

 

I'm more mad at the editors for failing to show pretty key pieces of info tbh. But I l like the aspect of viewing where I seek out extra clips and read contestants twitter and read people's thoughts. It adds to the experience of watching for me.

 

Please read exit interviews with Terry.  If you do, you will understand that this was a life-threatening condition that wasn't  discovered until Terry was on the island. 

 

It's confusing because it's been mentioned that Terry said in interviews that he knew his son was sick and then it's been said that he said he had no idea. And from the edit it definitely sounded like Terry knew this could've been a thing because he said to the tribe, "My son ended up having to go to the hospital." But I don't really care enough to read the interviews tbh since it doesn't really make any difference really. I'm just glad to hear his son is OK.

Edited October 30, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[ProfCrash]

It's confusing because it's been mentioned that Terry said in interviews that he knew his son was sick and then it's been said that he said he had no idea. And from the edit it definitely sounded like Terry knew this could've been a thing because he said to the tribe, "My son ended up having to go to the hospital." But I don't really care enough to read the interviews tbh since it doesn't really make any difference really. I'm just glad to hear his son is OK.

 

Terry thought he had bronchitis. Jeff told Terry that Danny was in the hospital and that he had to go home which is what we saw him repeat to Kass and Kelley.

 

I take from this that they are allowed some limited contact with home during pregame so Terry knew that Danny had bronchitis. When Jeff showed up on the beach, Terry thought it was a parent. When Probst said it was Danny, Terry thought it was a car crash because Danny had just gotten his drivers license. I don't think that Terry thought that Danny was in the hospital because of a pre exisiting health condition but he did know that Danny had been sick.

 

"The day before we were out on the astroturf throwing bombs and he was like, “I’m a little short of breath.” I’m like, “Don’t worry about it. You’re probably out of shape from lacrosse or whatever.” Two days after I left, everything in his system started breaking down. He was throwing up. Cold, they thought he had bronchitis. The last thing she got him was an echocardiogram. It’s like an ultrasound for the heart. From that they can tell what your ejection fraction is. That’s the percentage of blood coming out of your heart. We walk around with a 50-65. He had an ejection fraction of eight. The doctor comes running back into the room. He says, “Mrs. Deitz, you’re not going on vacation. I just called 911. An ambulance is coming to take your son.” He went to Hartford Hospital, they wanted him to see a specialist. They put him in an ambulance immediately and took him to Boston Children’s Hospital. They’re the best children’s hospital in the world. And thank God they did. He shouldn’t have been walking. They had doctors coming in the room just to look at him. “There’s the kid with the EF eight.” There are athletes who have enlarged hearts and fall down on the field and never get up. Fortunately my wife got him a bunch of checkups because nobody was catching it. And all of this is going on while I’m doing challenges in Cambodia."

 

http://my.xfinity.com/blogs/tv/2015/10/29/survivor-castaway-terry-dannys-heart-is-pumping-like-a-champ/

Edited November 2, 2015 by GenL

[Special K]

Nah. It was just a phrase Spencer used for Kass (or against Kass) after she flipped on their alliance creating enemies, meaning these people would never vote for her. It made sense at the time. Kass said it like it was her time to take revenge of Spencer, but in the end she didn't.

 

Sure, I remember when Spencer said it about Kass.  I was just saying that I thought it would be great/funny if the producers showed Kass saying that for the irony.  Like they do all the time. I mean practically every person voted out gets a TH that episode saying, "I'm safe, I'm not going anywhere."

 

I just thought maybe it would turn out to be the famous "million dollar quote" we all talk about, just reversed.  But I'm biased.  It would make my day if Spencer got back at Kass by winning. 

[Zuleikha]

I like my Survivor pure and unedited by the players telling us that what we're seeing is not what really happened, or there's more to the story, etc.

I'm the reverse. The Survivor editors favor players, leave out a lot, and sometimes just bungle the narrative arc. Just this episode, IMHO, they spent way more time than was needed on Savage and Spencer talking heads at the expense of showing us any Ciera or Abi interaction/talking heads that would have explained the targeting of Woo. Abi vs. Woo has been a multi-episode story, and this episode should have been the pay off where Abi's (IMHO, irrational but funny) vendetta against Woo for writing her name down twice results in Abi's triumph over Woo. 

 

So I love having Twitter and exit interviews to help fill in the missing pieces. All of the contestants have equivalent access to Twitter and they all eventually get exit interviews, so it feels fair to me.

[Oscirus]

I also don't have a notion of a four person alliance she was in from this most recent swap

 

Thing is Abi told PG she was in an alliance with Andrew/ Tasha and Woo was bought in after the PG vote.  Unless you're saying that she's lying. If that's the case then I can't argue with that.   My other problem with the vote is if you're going to show your ass and go against the alliance you claim to be a part of, go big, vote out Andrew don't waste your time on the minor threat. 

 

Spencer got in what he thought was a solid alliance as soon as the game started. After one vote, Varner decided he and Shirin were too smart to keep around and he needed to try and get rid of them immediately and let's face it, a big part of Varner thinking this was because of Spencer's previous season.

 

Spencer and Shirin  were in a two person alliance where they got others to agree to take out Vytas and then seemingly forgot that one vote isn't an alliance for life and annoyed others by flaunting their power. Hell, the only reason Spencer is still there is because Shirin took the bullet for him. Now the resulting events might have been based on things beyond his control, But that first alliance breakdown was on him.

[ProfCrash]

I think it was a four person alliance with Shirin, Spencer, Kelley and Abi. PG joined only because Terry told her that she could be their sixth. Terry thought that Spencer was with them. In his exit interview with Rob, Terry says he had a long chat with Spencer after the Vytas vote about honor and all that fun stuff. Shirin couldn't handle the emotional drain that is Abi and the PG/Abi BS got the worst of the alliance so Abi defected. Varner never planned on working with the alliance, he wanted to shake up Kelly and Terry and didn't trust Vytas, so Varner went back to his original alliance.

[Oscirus]

The alliance I was referring to was Abi, Andrew, Tasha. She acknowledged that she was part of that new alliance.  If people want to see Woo wasn't part of that alliance then fine. It still doesn't make any sense to get rid of someone  that thinks that they're working with you and your alliance.

[ProfCrash]

I don't put much faith behind Abi's word regarding alliances in the game. She started in an alliance with Spencer, Shirin, and Kelley and flipped.

 

She was in an alliance with Jeff, Woo and PG and she flipped on that. They all discussed that they had the numbers and would vote together after the swap. It took about two seconds for that to change.

 

She was in an alliance with Andrew and Tasha and she voted out the person Andrew wanted to keep, which means to mean she flipped on that alliance.

 

Abi is not exactly someone who I would trust to prepare my water for my tea never mind in an alliance.* She is totally unreliable and plays an emotional game. She has been looking to vote out Woo ever since he wrote her name down the first time, never mind the second time. Ciera and Kass took advantage of that.

 

I am Sheldon like in my tea prep. Right water temperature, proper steeping time but no milk or sugar. Properly made tea does not require sugar or milk. And yes, I have a programmable tea kettle at work to make sure that the water is the right temperature. At home I have a programmable tea machine that makes sure that the water is at the right temperature and the tea is steeped for the exact right length of time.

[KimberStormer]

The alliance I was referring to was Abi, Andrew, Tasha. She acknowledged that she was part of that new alliance.  If people want to see Woo wasn't part of that alliance then fine. It still doesn't make any sense to get rid of someone  that thinks that they're working with you and your alliance.

 

OK, I get that alliance, but it's not a big one, nor a close one.  No bigger than the Ciera/Abi/Kass/Spencer team from this episode, yeah?  And Abi has done the same to every alliance she's been with so far.  Abi, unlike Kimmi for example, does not give two shits about her alliance, only herself.  She joined Andrew and Tasha, in her own words, because she thought they could give her a better deal than Varner, Peih Gee, and Woo.  If someone threatens her specifically (and she has an emotional sense of threat, not a game-logical sense) then she'll act immediately, but if it's a threat to someone she's nominally aligned with, what does she care?  Nor do I think anyone but Andrew and Tasha could care that she voted against Woo (original Bayons don't care about Woo, and original TaKeos don't either!), and Woo was after all a late addition to that party.

 

Abi does not think of the game like, say, Stephen, or many of us on the forum, including myself.  We can't really analyze her game with those tools, which are orthagonal to her thinking.  (We can say her way of thinking of the game is wrong, and it probably is.)  But even if we do, this move isn't necessarily bad.  If she wants in with the majority Bayon, much better to be with Ciera and Kass, whom she has some kind of prayer of beating both at individual immunity and the final, rather than with Andrew and Tasha, whom she cannot possibly beat.  If there were another tribal council in this configuration, they can boot Andrew outright (Spencer has seen the girls didn't lie to him, and he was going home without them, and Kelly surely has no loyalty to Andrew either) and if there's a merge, there will be so many Big Male Demigods striding the earth that these smaller, less "threatening" women can scurry around under their feet and avoid notice and the target, perhaps flipping back and forth between them to take them out each by each.

 

In any case I think it's a big misreading to say she's playing for TV time.  I think this motivation mostly exists in the minds of the audience, but even if it applies to some people, I definitely don't think it applies to Abi.

 

It's great that Andrew was so delighted with his new tribe, when he was in vastly better shape in the old one. 

Edited October 30, 2015 by KimberStormer

[ProfCrash]

 

Stephen Fishbach ‏@stephenfishbach

And the Fishy goes to @cieraeastin

Kass McQuillen ‏@KassMcQ

@stephenfishbach @cieraeastin As @theabimaria would say, "You are dead to me." ;)

Stephen Fishbach ‏@stephenfishbach

After extreme lobbying by @KassMcQ, the Fishy actually goes to Chaos Kass.

Kass McQuillen ‏@KassMcQ

@stephenfishbach Are you being strategillogical with me?

Kass McQuillen ‏@KassMcQ

Winning friends and influencing fish. @stephenfishbach

Ciera ‏@cieraeastin

@stephenfishbach @KassMcQ HOLD THE PHONE!!!!!! I won that fishy fair and square lol

Kass McQuillen ‏@KassMcQ

@cieraeastin @stephenfishbach Don't worry, there are plenty more fish in the sea...Am I right @KimmiKappenberg ?

See, this is why I like reading Twitter.

[truthaboutluv]

Spencer and Shirin  were in a two person alliance where they got others to agree to take out Vytas and then seemingly forgot that one vote isn't an alliance for life and annoyed others by flaunting their power.

 

 

Let me preface by saying that I don't read the exit interviews because honestly I just don't care.  So maybe stuff gets revealed about what was really happening that wasn't shown on the show. That said, from what I remember of the actual episodes, I don't remember it ever being shown that they were flaunting their power. Two, it seemed that they were aligned, that they thought anyway, with Wentworth, Varner and Abi. I think PG was sort of a floater. Varner at tribal and talking to the other tribe members of the tribe kept going on about Shirin and Spencer playing too hard and only caring about strategizing and not seeing others as people and all that.

 

Yet in his talking head he stated clearly that he wanted them gone because they were too smart and a threat so frankly I personally called bullshit on that excuse of his. Kelly Wentworth in her talking head stated clearly that she wanted to play with Spencer and Shirin, so clearly they didn't annoy her, but she didn't know how the numbers flipped and felt that she had to protect herself. PG also stated clearly that she had to just go where the numbers was. We saw Varner going to Terry and saying he needed to wake up and play the game before he got left behind. Honestly the person we saw playing very hard in that tribe was Varner not Spencer and Shirin.

 

So I disagree from what I saw in the episode that they flaunted their power with only a two person alliance. In my opinion, a better example of that would be Savage this episode who felt perfectly comfortable just dictating to Ciera that she would be the decoy vote, without asking her first or thinking about how that would seem to her in terms of her position in the alliance. 

[elizacat]

I had to look that one up.

Me too!

[Bryce Smith]

Zuleikha, on 30 Oct 2015 - 1:12 PM, said:

I'm the reverse. The Survivor editors favor players, leave out a lot, and sometimes just bungle the narrative arc. Just this episode, IMHO, they spent way more time than was needed on Savage and Spencer talking heads at the expense of showing us any Ciera or Abi interaction/talking heads that would have explained the targeting of Woo.

Not to mention Stephen's "poor me" pity party.

[Guest]

It probably didn't help that I posted the local paper story link that said that Danny's condition was discovered in spring, which I took to mean "pre-Cambodia" but which I found out 5 minutes later from the exit interviews was actually shortly after Terry left the country so in late May or early June.  (Which I guess technically is 'spring' still.)

[gator12]

It is still Spring in May and Early June since Summer doesn't officially started until June 20th or 21st 

[Zuleikha]

Not to mention Stephen's "poor me" pity party.

Yes! I think I blocked it out of my memory. Definitely too much time spent on that given Stephen's tribe didn't even go to Tribal Council. Assuming that Joe/Wentworth/Stephen is going to a be a storyline at some point post-merge, I don't mind some time on the set up. I like knowing that Joe values the Ta Keo 5 alliance enough to try to protect Wentworth. But so much time complete with Stephen's meltdown? Uh-uh! Give me more Ciera and (I can't believe I'm saying it) but for this one episode, even more Abi.

 

Also, more Tasha!  What was Tasha doing on her new-old tribe? Tasha was separated from what's been her core alliance and, in a way, was just as isolated as Wentworth. We saw that the Ta Keo 5 bond was still active, and Stephen/Jeremy were still active, so what was Tasha's positioning? 

 

I can't believe I just realized this, but writing this out also made me realize that Jeremy did not seem to give an F at all that Joe was targeting Kimmi. Stephen also seemed more concerned for the potential effect on him rather than the specifics of Kimmi being his close alliance partner. So yeah, I'm still going with Kimmi made a huge mistake getting rid of Monica last episode. Maybe it won't matter since Bayon is going to be reunited soon at merge, but it does not seem that Jeremy or Stephen feel any loyalty to Kimmi at all. And why didn't Stephen go to Kimmi about Joe? Wouldn't his pitch to Jeremy have been stronger if Kimmi were right there with him also backing the play?

[Guest]

It is still Spring in May and Early June since Summer doesn't officially started until June 20th or 21st 

Yes.  Which is why I said it's still technically spring.  

 

Hey, do you think Kimmi is a vegan?  Because we haven't discussed those semantics in an hour or two...  ; )

[Bryce Smith]

Zuleikha, on 30 Oct 2015 - 7:31 PM, said:

Also, more Tasha!  What was Tasha doing on her new-old tribe? Tasha was separated from what's been her core alliance and, in a way, was just as isolated as Wentworth. We saw that the Ta Keo 5 bond was still active, and Stephen/Jeremy were still active, so what was Tasha's positioning?

We saw Stephen go to Tasha about Joe, but she didn't seem as open to getting rid of them.  So there was that scene, at least.

[Oscirus]

Abi, unlike Kimmi for example, does not give two shits about her alliance, only herself.  She joined Andrew and Tasha, in her own words, because she thought they could give her a better deal than Varner, Peih Gee, and Woo.  If someone threatens her specifically (and she has an emotional sense of threat, not a game-logical sense) then she'll act immediately, but if it's a threat to someone she's nominally aligned with, what does she care?  Nor do I think anyone but Andrew and Tasha could care that she voted against Woo (original Bayons don't care about Woo, and original TaKeos don't either!), and Woo was after all a late addition to that party.

 

You're right in the short term it doesn't affect her at all. But long term, Andrew and Tasha were her best bets of getting to the end. She's not an immunity threat someone has to drag her to the end and all the other immunity threats are aligned elsewhere.  The problem with making demands is that as long as your vote is needed, you're fine, but the first time it becomes convenient to dump you, you're done.

 

In any case I think it's a big misreading to say she's playing for TV time.  I think this motivation mostly exists in the minds of the audience, but even if it applies to some people, I definitely don't think it applies to Abi.

 

I feel as if the constant bullying, the smirks at the camera and the things she says in her confessionals are ( in my mind) indicators that her primary motivation in this game is more TV time.

 

That said, from what I remember of the actual episodes, I don't remember it ever being shown that they were flaunting their power.

 

 Woo was pissed at them for never even bothering to talk to him until they needed him. I wouldn't be shocked if they were also like that with Kelly and Terry.  Usually indicative of people in power flaunting it.

Also the fact that they came close to getting blindsided in the second  vote despite the fact that the attitude around camp clearly changed is also another sign of their bad gameplay.

 

made me realize that Jeremy did not seem to give an F at all that Joe was targeting Kimmi. Stephen also seemed more concerned for the potential effect on him rather than the specifics of Kimmi being his close alliance partner. So yeah, I'm still going with Kimmi made a huge mistake getting rid of Monica last episode.

 

Jeremy wasn't concerned because he thought that Kelley was the obvious, easy boot. Why bother wasting a good meat shield when meat shield's alliance partner would've been gone anyway. Yea, Kelley had a HII and obviously would've used it but he didn't know that. Regardless of what his reason was, Stephen was trying to protect Kimmi by booting Joe.

 

If anything Joe was the dumb one in that situation since he needlessly outted his alliance with Kelley by targeting Kimmi before the IC was even played. At least wait until you know that you're going to tribal before you put yourself out there for someone else.

[MochaJay]

Woo was pissed at them for never even bothering to talk to him until they needed him. I wouldn't be shocked if they were also like that with Kelly and Terry.  Usually indicative of people in power flaunting it.

Also the fact that they came close to getting blindsided in the second  vote despite the fact that the attitude around camp clearly changed is also another sign of their bad gameplay.

 

It seems it was Shirin that Woo was blasting for not talking to him, and Spencer got caught in the flack because he was in a pair with her. It didn't make much sense that Spencer had not spoken with Woo as they were shown building the shelter together in Ep 1 and from early exit interviews we learnt that the Shelter people apparently thought that Spencer was with them until the Vytas vote. Then in Woo's Rob has a podcast exit interview he confirmed that he might have been willing to work with Spencer if he had been partnered with someone else.

 

Nearly getting blindsided on the second vote was a bad sign. Though it mostly indicates that the they were not the ones playing hard and fast so much as Varner was, they were happy to do usually sound thing of making an alliance and staying strong with it through the first few votes.

[choclatechip45]

I didn't mind Stephen's crying. I was never a fan, but he's always been diplomatic about loosing to JT. I can see why the emotions would come out during the confessional.

[Bryce Smith]

I didn't mind Stephen's crying. I was never a fan, but he's always been diplomatic about loosing to JT. I can see why the emotions would come out during the confessional.

I minded it.  He's had thirteen seasons -- six-and-a-half years -- to get the hell over it.  Plus, his loss was his own fault.  He had ample opportunities to pull the trigger on J.T. and chose not to.  His fault.  So yeah.  I minded his crying very much.

[phlebas]

I think I understand Stephen's POV.  He knows he screwed up with J.T. the first time, and it gnaws on him. He's had to live with it not just in his own head but as part of being in the Survivor community and writing about the show and Rob's podcast and all that. Then he gets back out there and is trying to fix the mistake he made the first time and he can't.  

 

That would frustrate the crap out of me too. I don't think I'd break into tears, but at this point they've been out there for, what, two weeks? Hell, I might burst into tears if someone whistles that "I want my baby back baby back baby back" ribs song.

[Zuleikha]

Then he gets back out there and is trying to fix the mistake he made the first time and he can't.

That's part of what made the tears so ridiculous to me, though. No one is unaware that Joe is an immunity threat. Just because he couldn't get anyone interested in targeting Joe now doesn't mean that it wouldn't ever happen. It was more of a not yet than a never.

 

Also, he was going on about how it would be such a great move... except that his tribe won the immunity challenge! They weren't going to Tribal Council. His move was never going to happen because it couldn't! Why get so emotionally invested to the point of tears in a truly hypothetical vote? (and I still don't understand his approach about it anyway. I still think it would have been more effective to get Kimmi on board first and then use Kimmi--the betrayed target--to make the pitch)

 

What Stephen should have been crying about was realizing that Jeremy was not a #1 trustworthy ally. That conversation with Jeremy should have been a big red flag that Jeremy wasn't strongly invested in the Jeremy/Stephen/Kimmi alliance and that the bromance was more of a one-sided thing. But it doesn't seem to have been the wake up call that Stephen needs right now.

[truthaboutluv]

That's part of what made the tears so ridiculous to me, though. No one is unaware that Joe is an immunity threat. Just because he couldn't get anyone interested in targeting Joe now doesn't mean that it wouldn't ever happen. It was more of a not yet than a never.

 

 

Exactly. I cannot imagine anyone out there, save for maybe Keith who barely understands the game, wants to go to the end with Joe. 

 

Also, he was going on about how it would be such a great move... except that his tribe won the immunity challenge! They weren't going to Tribal Council. His move was never going to happen because it couldn't! Why get so emotionally invested to the point of tears in a truly hypothetical vote?

 

 

I may be wrong but I think he was floating around the idea of throwing the challenge to get rid of Joe and Jeremy and Kimmi wouldn't go for it and that's when the waterworks started with him. 

[NutMeg]

What Stephen should have been crying about was realizing that Jeremy was not a #1 trustworthy ally.

Maybe he did, subconsciously ;-) Which made him think of JT, who was the best trustworthy ally consciously (Jeremy), then at FTC was not. Conscious Stephen say "oh, that could totally be Joe", but his subconscious mind GET IT that that could totally be Jeremy!!

[phlebas]

I think we'll just have to disagree on this :)  I'm not saying Stephen wasn't a little uncomfortable watching that scene last week.  I kinda was too.  

 

I read it as just his frustrations getting the best of him in a TH. It wasn't about Joe, it was him being unable to find a path forward mixed with fatigue at having to be "on" all the time at camp.  He knows he's not at the center of things, and he can't really stay out of everyone's notice because they know what kind of player he is.

 

I'd bet these little raw emotional moments are common when a player gets away from everyone else. For whatever reason, we saw this one.

 

I understand if it reads a little whiny or entitled. Fishbahhk may have some of that in him too -- he did date Courtney Yates for awhile, they must have had something in common. From my POV, dude just needed a release. Been there, although never when I was on the far side of the planet with no one I could open up to.

 

ETA: I'm going to copy this over to Stephen's own thread.

Edited November 2, 2015 by phlebas

[Nashville]

From my POV, dude just needed a release.

That costs extra.

[marys1000]

Someone out there has probably done a statistical analysis of how often and how soon swing voters go home.  Or people who people who vote against their alliance or people who "make big moves" (without the solidarity/agreement or an HII to go with it).

 

I don't know how it went down within the tribe but the talking heads make it look like Kass took all the credit for what was basically Ciera's move.  That I think is truly stupid.  Ciera's going to fly under the drama, not trustworthy radar and Kass is going to take all the heat.  That's without her past history which only makes it worse. 

[rose711]

As a Woo fan, I am looking forward to seeing Kass and Ciera taken down by a vote that includes Spencer voting against them. How is Woo a threat to them over an active schemer- that even Savage recognised as having to go- like Spencer? And, they have put Savage against them. Savage has allies, no matter how obnoxious he comes across on the show.

So they kept a bigger threat and blew up what was a solid alliance.

I think Cierra over reacted to being named because of her experience of realizing, too late, that she was 4th in her alliance with Tyson. She wasn't going to let that happen again. But, doing so, she damaged what was a solid alliance.

[green]

As a Woo fan, I am looking forward to seeing Kass and Ciera taken down by a vote that includes Spencer voting against them. How is Woo a threat to them over an active schemer- that even Savage recognised as having to go- like Spencer? And, they have put Savage against them. Savage has allies, no matter how obnoxious he comes across on the show.

So they kept a bigger threat and blew up what was a solid alliance.

I think Cierra over reacted to being named because of her experience of realizing, too late, that she was 4th in her alliance with Tyson. She wasn't going to let that happen again. But, doing so, she damaged what was a solid alliance.

 

But like lots of people already posted here, they didn't have a solid alliance.  Andrew added his "new two" seemingly ahead of his old alliance mates.  Good grief it was so bad that Ciera was being used as a decoy over Kelley who wasn't even in their alliance and should have been teh natural decoy to use.  So why wouldn't Ciera realize the danger?  And it had nothing about targeting Woo because he was a "threat."  It was that they had the votes for Woo vs not having them for Andrew because they needed Abi to vote with them and, like the foreshadowing all season showed, she wanted Woo out first last and foremost.  Woo was no threat to anyone except in Abi's fantasy reality but he, unlike Andrew, could be taken out.

 

Marys1000, I know nothing about how soon swing voters go home except that Sandra never went home ever on both her seasons.  :-)   In other words, I think there are too many parameters involved to really define what a swing voter is.  They seem to come in a lot of different flavors.

 

As for big moves and betraying alliances.  I wonder who betrayed their alliance in this episode.  I'd go with Andrew being the betrayer putting at risk Ciera (in case Spenser had the immunity idol) over the obvious choice of non-alliance member Kelley.

[Oscirus]

I think Cierra over reacted to being named because of her experience of realizing, too late, that she was 4th in her alliance with Tyson. She wasn't going to let that happen again. But, doing so, she damaged what was a solid alliance.

 

While I do think that move by Ciera was a mistake, it's not for the same reason you do. Ciera's name was being thrown around as a decoy, for all she knew, Andrew could be trying to blindside her so she was well within her rights to boot one of Savage's people.

 

However, the move was a half-measure. According to Ciera on twitter, she, not Abi dictated who went home and that they took out Woo because that was the easier boot. To that I say, no. If you have the chance to take out a power player, you take him out as soon as possible. Woo is the most harmless player left in the game. Yea, he's an immunity threat, but he's also a follower with little to no strategy and no connections to Bayon. Andrew on the other hand...

[phlebas]

Woo is the most harmless player left in the game. Yea, he's an immunity threat, but he's also a follower with little to no strategy and no connections to Bayon. Andrew on the other hand...

But if Abi digs her heels in -- and I think that's the only thing Abi knows how to do with heels -- and insists on Woo-voted-for-me-twice or nothing, then taking away Andrew's second vote is better than nothing.  You left a power player in the game, but without Abi's vote you wouldn't have a majority and couldn't flip the script to anyone else.

 

I agree Andrew was the more strategic move. But Ciera would have needed Wigles or Woo to go along with it. At least Andrew is temporarily less powerful without two votes. At least until the merge... (add ominous music...)

[ProfCrash]

Andrew signaled  that Woo and Abi were more valuable allies then Ciera. That told Ciera that she needed to be looking at Andrew and his alliance. Ciera figured out she didn't have the votes to take out Savage. We know Abi and Woo were not going to vote for Savage. Spencer wanted to work with Savage and might not have been convinced to vote for Savage. I don't think Kass was thrilled with targeting someone from original Bayon.

 

Taking out Woo removes an player from Andrew's alliance and an original Ta Keo member. It is less risky with a merge because it tells the other tribe that they are still Bayon strong, which should decrease the alliance building with people outside their original and even secondary alliances. It removed an individual immunity challenge threat. And it removed a pawn for Andrew, who was in a different alliance then Ciera and Kass. Overall, it was a good move.

 

Spencer is more of a floater, and that is dangerous, but he is also known to be dangerous. Woo is very loyal and not at all strategic, which made him a great pawn for Andrew. Keeping Spencer is a risk because he is a floater and dangerous but it is less risky then keeping a known pawn who is a challenge threat and working with another challenge threat.

[Alapaki]

So why wouldn't Ciera realize the danger?  And it had nothing about targeting Woo because he was a "threat."  It was that they had the votes for Woo vs not having them for Andrew because they needed Abi to vote with them

 

 

I agree.  This was simply an unforced error on Andrew's part.  Players are paranoid enough without having fuel poured on that fire.

 

I also agree that Abi was probably driving the vote.  I'm not sure I completely believe Ciera's tweet that targeting Woo was her decision.  Or, perhaps, if it was, she did so implicitly knowing that Woo would be a much easier sell for Abi than Andrew would be.  

 

Pretty soon they'll be able to fill an entire row of bleachers at the Reunion with players that fell victim to other players' desire to humor Abi to win her vote.

 

I know nothing about how soon swing voters go home except that Sandra never went home ever on both her seasons.  :-)   In other words, I think there are too many parameters involved to really define what a swing voter is.  They seem to come in a lot of different flavors.

 

 

I wouldn't consider Sandra a pure "swing-vote".  I consider "swing-votes" to be players who consider themselves to have all of the power because they represent the tie-breaking-vote and thus feel that they get to determine who goes home (this week, at least).  And, they completely fail to recognize that this means that they are at the bottom of both alliances and are therefore completely disposable as soon as their vote is not needed (usually next week).

[Guest]

 According to Ciera on twitter, she, not Abi dictated who went home and that they took out Woo because that was the easier boot. To that I say, no. If you have the chance to take out a power player, you take him out as soon as possible. Woo is the most harmless player left in the game. Yea, he's an immunity threat, but he's also a follower with little to no strategy and no connections to Bayon. Andrew on the other hand...

Where on Twitter did Ciera say that?  I see where she said this below but nothing contradicting it?

 Ciera ‏@cieraeastin  Oct 28

@bmf1314 no sorry let me clarify... I knew I could pull Abi in for a vote if it was woo going. But I wasn't sure she would turn on savage.

 

[JudyObscure]

Then he [stephen] gets back out there and is trying to fix the mistake he made the first time and he can't.

That's part of what made the tears so ridiculous to me, though. No one is unaware that Joe is an immunity threat. Just because he couldn't get anyone interested in targeting Joe now doesn't mean that it wouldn't ever happen. It was more of a not yet than a never.

Zuleikha's excellent post has me thinking about this season as a whole. It's called, "Second Chances," it has many of the challenges from the contestant's past seasons, and Probst is trying his very best to relate every little thing that happens back to what someone did in their season. The man loves his themes. But I'm starting to think that if they let all that get into their heads too much they will entirely mess themselves up. Because they are not playing their old game with a new wiser head. It's an entirely different game for every one of them. Joe is not JT, as Zuleikha pointed out. It's good to bring a better head to the game this time, maybe be less trusting or less annoying, but they are playing with different people and if they fixate, like Stephen is doing, on correcting the uncorrectable they wont see what they should be doing in this game because they're still playing the old one.

[Nashville]

Good grief it was so bad that Ciera was being used as a decoy over Kelley who wasn't even in their alliance and should have been teh natural decoy to use. 

 

Possibly we have different views on what constitutes good strategy -

but if an alliance is going to float a name as a fake nomination to hide a blindside,

isn't it usually a good idea for the fake name to BE a member of the alliance,

to further disguise the existence of the alliance?

 

Savage's mistake wasn't in naming Ciera specifically,

or naming an alliance member in general.

Savage's mistake was in unilaterally picking Ciera's name himself, instead of discussing it with his alliance and coming to a group consensus on which alliance member's name would be floated.

[Zuleikha]

isn't it usually a good idea for the fake name to BE a member of the alliance,

to further disguise the existence of the alliance?

No, not since Hidden Idols became a thing. There's always a risk now of being idoled out. The decoy needs to either be a volunteer who is willing to take the risk or someone the alliance won't mind losing if an idol comes to play. Also, given how tribal lines had shaken down, there were two obvious potential boots, so there wasn't a strong need to hide anything... just convince Spencer that Wigles was the target instead of him.

[green]

Possibly we have different views on what constitutes good strategy -

but if an alliance is going to float a name as a fake nomination to hide a blindside,

isn't it usually a good idea for the fake name to BE a member of the alliance,

to further disguise the existence of the alliance?

 

Savage's mistake wasn't in naming Ciera specifically,

or naming an alliance member in general.

Savage's mistake was in unilaterally picking Ciera's name himself, instead of discussing it with his alliance and coming to a group consensus on which alliance member's name would be floated.

 

Totally what Zuleikha said directly above so well.

 

And, addressing what I bolded, Spenser knew all about the alliance already.  Everyone did.  It was the old tribe.  It wasn't hidden at all.  Spenser knew full well he and Kelley were the two outliers.  Therefore to sell Spenser by proposing a member of your own alliance instead of a "throw away" (Kelley) would make Spenser far more suspicious he was the real target.  But to sell Kelley because she wouldn't keep the tribe as strong at challenges like Spenser might would have been a decent ploy.

Edited November 5, 2015 by green