S05.E05: Dreamcatcher

[YaddaYadda]

I don't know, I thought Regina's tears felt "forced" for lack of a better word. When that scene aired the very first time, I felt for Regina. I felt her panic, her sadness, the anguish, and whatever else. And maybe that's what was supposed to come across, and why Emma figured Regina's tears wouldn't be enough. As sad and horrible as that moment was, a lot of time has passed, and while the pain is still there, it has dulled.

 

Plus we had a whole scene when Regina finally let go of Daniel.

 

Honestly, I can't even feel bad for what Emma has done. She sacrificed for everyone. It's time people start giving back, and that includes Henry.

Edited October 29, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[legaleagle53]

I don't know, I thought Regina's tears felt "forced" for lack of a better word. When that scene aired the very first time, I felt for Regina. I felt her panic, her sadness, the anguish, and whatever else. And maybe that's what was supposed to come across, and why Emma figured Regina's tears wouldn't be enough. As sad and horrible as that moment was, a lot of time has passed, and while the pain is still there, it has dulled.

 

Plus we had a whole scene when Regina finally let go of Daniel.

 

Honestly, I can't even feel bad for what Emma has done. She sacrificed for everyone. It's time people start giving back, and that includes Henry.

 

You're both getting a bit ahead of the plot of the episode. Emma didn't realize that Regina's tears wouldn't work until AFTER she had collected them and tried to use them to activate the spell.  She then surmised that the reason that they didn't work wasn't that the memory of Cora's murder of Daniel wasn't painful enough; it was that too much time had passed and Regina had finally healed and moved on (as ZombieDaniel himself had encouraged her to do).  At the time that she and Regina were reliving the memory via the Dreamcatcher, they both thought that Regina's tears would work and had no reason to believe otherwise. So no, Emma's Plan B couldn't possibly have been conceived while the attempted execution of Plan A was still in progress.

It shouldn't be this hard to come up with one truthfully nice thing to say about Neal.

 

Switching gears for a second, but I'm kind of confused when Emma decided she wanted to rip out Violet's heart. Did the idea come to her on the spot when she saw Cora rip out Daniel's heart? That would call back to her date with Hook on the ship where she suddenly got the idea to use his cutlass only when he mentioned it in the moment. So did Emma walk into that dreamcatcher plan with Regina thinking it would be enough, but halfway through watching the Daniel flashback, she thought to herself, "Crap, this memory isn't painful enough. We need someone else's tears. Oh, what's this? Cora is ripping his heart out? You know, Henry seems to be fond of Violet...maybe that would be enough to complete the spell. Maybe I'll just have her tell him they need to be friends as a backup plan in case Woegina's tears aren't enough. Which they probably won't be because seriously, this is why you were on a quest to destroy my mom for decades?" 

Edited October 29, 2015 by legaleagle53

[Curio]

You're both getting a bit ahead of the plot of the episode. Emma didn't realize that Regina's tears wouldn't work until AFTER she had collected them and tried to use them to activate the spell. She then surmised that the reason that they didn't work wasn't that the memory of Cora's murder of Daniel wasn't painful enough; it was that too much time had passed and Regina had finally healed and moved on (as ZombieDaniel himself had encouraged her to do). At the time that she and Regina were reliving the memory via the Dreamcatcher, they both thought that Regina's tears would work and had no reason to believe otherwise. So no, Emma's Plan B couldn't possibly have been conceived while the attempted execution of Plan A was still in progress.

 

This is why I asked in the first place, because when you look at the timeline, Emma yanked out Violet's heart before Regina and Emma began doing their magical potion party to release Merlin. Henry interrupts them and is crying because Violet broke his heart, so that means Emma had to have ripped out Violet's heart before the potions process, which might also mean she knew Regina's tears wouldn't be strong enough. The way I interpreted it, the timeline went something like this:

 

Regina and Emma watch Daniel's death in dreamcatcher → Emma gets idea to yank Violet's heart by watching Cora → Emma secretly goes and rips Violet's heart out, forcing her to tell Henry they're just friends → Henry and Violet have their date and she breaks his heart → Regina and Emma do spell and Regina's tears aren't enough → Henry comes running to them crying.

[kili]

Yoiu're both getting a bit ahead of the plot of the episode. Emma didn't realize that Regina's tears wouldn't work until AFTER she had collected them and tried to use them to activate the spell.  She then surmised that the reason that they didn't work wasn't that the memory of Cora's murder of Daniel wasn't painful enough; it was that too much time had passed and Regina had finally healed and moved on (as ZombieDaniel himself had encouraged her to do).  At the time that she and Regina were reliving the memory via the Dreamcatcher, they both thought that Regina's tears would work and had no reason to believe otherwise. So no, Emma's Plan B couldn't possibly have been conceived while the attempted execution of Plan A was still in progress.

 

 

But the scene didn't break between Regina's tears not working and Henry's working. They had the spell set up, they put in Regina's tears and the spell didn't work. So, while they are talking about what to do, Henry shows up heartbroken and Regina thinks his tears might work. Arthur shows up to disrupt the magic-making and Regina throws fireballs with one hand while handing off the tear-filled kleenex with the other. Emma throws the kleenex in with the spell (I guess adding extra ingrediants like wood-fibre does not upset the spell) and magic happens and she frees Merlin.

 

So, we are left with four possible options (or maybe more):

1) Emma knew or suspected that Regina's tears would not work, so sometime between hatching the plan to use tears and trying to use Regina's tears, she ripped out Violet's heart and commanded her to break Henry's.

 

2) Emma just decided to break Henry's heart because that is the way she rolls. No girl is good enough for her boy. She later changes her mind and fixes things. It's all just luck that she decided to rip out Violet's heart and break Henry's so they had the tears the ended up needing.

 

3) Emma can time travel at will and when the first spell did not work and after Arthur cut off everybody's head in the original time line, she traveled back in time to rip out Violet's heart and create the situation where Henry would show up at the last minute to save the day.

 

4) Emma never ripped out Violet's heard and Violet honestly just wanted to be friends at that point in their relationship (and maybe later she might be interested in more). Emma needs everybody to hate her, so she altered the memory in the dreamcatcher to make it look like she did rip out Violet's heard so that Henry and Regina (and everybody else) would hate her. She then left the dreamcatcher where it could be easily found.

 

I don't know which is true at this point, but I"m leaning to 1 or 4. I also can't figure out if Merlin couldn't kill the Dark One or the Dark One prevented him from stabbing her/him.

Edited October 29, 2015 by kili

[YaddaYadda]

She might've suspected that Regina's tears wouldn't work from what Merlin said, and what she repeated to Regina. Merlin wept over the only woman he's ever loved.

 

The emphasis was put on that word twice. Regina loved Daniel, and she now loves Robin. So that's 2 men.

[snarkybelle]

You're both getting a bit ahead of the plot of the episode. Emma didn't realize that Regina's tears wouldn't work until AFTER she had collected them and tried to use them to activate the spell.  She then surmised that the reason that they didn't work wasn't that the memory of Cora's murder of Daniel wasn't painful enough; it was that too much time had passed and Regina had finally healed and moved on (as ZombieDaniel himself had encouraged her to do).  At the time that she and Regina were reliving the memory via the Dreamcatcher, they both thought that Regina's tears would work and had no reason to believe otherwise. So no, Emma's Plan B couldn't possibly have been conceived while the attempted execution of Plan A was still in progress.

My interpretation was that Emma never ripped out Violet's heart, Violet really just wanted to be friends with Henry and broke his heart and Emma left an altered memory dreamcatcher so Regina and the gang would find it.  Dark One lies, Dark One tricks.  She knows Killian is curious about what she has hidden in the basement so she expected him to break into her house and find it including Excalibur.  Why else would she take that particular dreamcatcher with that particular memory and leave it on the table in a box?  She is consciously and purposefully alienating her loved ones one by one so she can do what she needs to do.  

 

4) Emma never ripped out Violet's heard and Violet honestly just wanted to be friends at that point in their relationship (and maybe later she might be interested in more). Emma needs everybody to hate her, so she altered the memory in the dreamcatcher to make it look like she did rip out Violet's heard so that Henry and Regina (and everybody else) would hate her. She then left the dreamcatcher where it could be easily found.

 

I don't know which is true at this point, but I"m leaning to 1 or 4. I also can't figure out if Merlin couldn't kill the Dark One or the Dark One prevented him from stabbing her/him.

Yup! That's pretty much what I'm thinking.  Emma cried when she took out that dreamcatcher from her shed full o'memories.  She knew she would push Henry away with that and break his heart so he wouldn't come around to her white picket fence house any more.  Dark Swan has plans.

[Curio]

4) Emma never ripped out Violet's heart and Violet honestly just wanted to be friends at that point in their relationship (and maybe later she might be interested in more). Emma needs everybody to hate her, so she altered the memory in the dreamcatcher to make it look like she did rip out Violet's heart so that Henry and Regina (and everybody else) would hate her. She then left the dreamcatcher where it could be easily found.

 

I like this theory, but we also have to take into consideration how Violet reacted to Henry after he brought the horse back to her. If we believe that Violet just wanted to be friends in Camelot, we have to assume she probably feels the same way in Storybrooke. So in Camelot, Henry gives her a date and she says she only wants to be friends. But in Storybrooke, all of that changes just because of a horse? It seems too easy.

[YaddaYadda]

I like this theory, but we also have to take into consideration how Violet reacted to Henry after he brought the horse back to her. If we believe that Violet just wanted to be friends in Camelot, we have to assume she probably feels the same way in Storybrooke. So in Camelot, Henry gives her a date and she says she only wants to be friends. But in Storybrooke, all of that changes just because of a horse? It seems too easy.

Not necessarily. She's in a strange land, plus they have the whole hero culture back in the EF. Her father tore into Henry, but then he was just fine with him after he brought back the horse. The girl was miserable, and her father was dragging her around telling her to try and have fun before Henry showed up on the horse. Her giving him a kiss doesn't mean she's in love with him. I kiss and hug my friends on the regular, I love them, I'm not in love with them. 

 

Besides, how well is this thing going to end for Henry anyway? Violet is going back home, he'll likely never see her again. I'm sure they can't text each other.

 

Also, what girl from Camelot says "SUP?"

 

Violet sounds like she's from the Land without Magic, not Camelot. I find it very jarring.

[kili]

So in Camelot, Henry gives her a date and she says she only wants to be friends. But in Storybrooke, all of that changes just because of a horse? It seems too easy.

 

I can see a difference. In the Camleot scene, he invites her on a date and shows off all the wonderful things about his world. His can of pop, his music, his movies. He's very foreign and he's obviously doing it just to impress. He's like a less loud Gaston with a bit of social skills. I can see a girl going "Woah, I don't know. Let's keep it in the friendzone for now."

 

In the second instance, he goes out of his way to help her find her beloved pet and make her feel more at home. He does something that is for her and something she can relate to. He listens to her and finds does something for her that means a lot to her. This is like Flynn making sure that Rapunzel has her very special day.

 

Plus, when you are bounced into a new world, sometimes you are more open to relationships. It's like going to camp.

[Curio]

I could accept those theories. On the bright side, if Violet did in fact break Henry's heart for real in Camelot and Emma purposely manipulated the flashback in the dreamcatcher, then that explains why it felt like such whiplash to go from Emma-being-happy-making-out-with-Hook-in-a-meadow to Emma-taking-out-a-girl's-heart...because it wasn't actually what happened.

[Rumsy4]

I don't think this was a double-blind where Dark Swan planted false memories in the Dreamcatcher. That seems too convoluted. Until there is actually evidence to show Dark Swan is purposely pushing people away from her in storybrooke, I'm going to keep thinking that Emma really did rip Violet's heart to control her. 

[PixiePaws1]

The thing has me thinking that maybe she didn't is when did she put the heart back in?

If she did take it then replace it. ..how did she stop Violet from telling anyone? Did she keep it until they came to SB and DS made a side trip to put the heart back in before Violet woke up.? Does she still have it and is manipulating the poor girl in SB ?

Logistically it makes sense if she never took it in the first place and plays a part in why the memory wipe was enacted.

[Shanna Marie]

Honestly, I can't even feel bad for what Emma has done. She sacrificed for everyone. It's time people start giving back, and that includes Henry.

Though at this point, all Henry knows is that Emma (apparently) ripped out Violet's heart to make her break his heart. He has no way of knowing why, that this was essential for freeing Merlin, which was essential for whatever else for the greater good. Right now, I don't think he knows Merlin was freed. He doesn't know that Emma had any other agenda than to keep him out of a relationship with Violet. Emma acted somewhat dismayed/shocked when she learned about Violet (it was Hook who was enthusiastic and encouraging), so it's not too big a stretch to imagine she'd use her dark powers to put a stop to it if she were being rather dark.

 

As for nice things to say about Neal, maybe she could have gone with "You're 13, you don't have to be a hero. You're at an age to have fun. That's one thing your father was always good at. He could turn anything into fun and adventure. So think of something fun that she would like to do."

[Curio]

If she did take it then replace it. ..how did she stop Violet from telling anyone?

(Evil) Emma could have just done to Violet what (hero) Regina did to Belle, and she could have forced Violet to either forget the heart-rip ever happened or keep quiet about it.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Curio

[PixiePaws1]

(Evil) Emma could have just done to Violet what (hero) Regina did to Belle, and she could have forced Violet to either forget the heart-rip ever happened or keep quiet about it.

oh yes...The whole 'can you keep a secret?' thing. ..

[kili]

(Evil) Emma could have just done to Violet what (hero) Regina did to Belle, and she could have forced Violet to either forget the heart-rip ever happened or keep quiet about it.

 

Regina was able to do that because she still had Belle's heart. Once the person has the heart back, I don't think they have to keep doing what they were told to do when they didn't have a heart.

[HoodlumSheep]

Finally saw the episode in its entirety! Now I'm just behind on the Muppets.

Most of the issues about the episode have already been touched upon, so I'll try to keep it short.

-the episode wasn't horrible, it was just kinda dull and slow. It was an improvement over the last "episode 5" we had (aka 4x05).

-for it being a supposed Henry-centric, I was expecting more Henry than what we got? I wouldn't really call this a Henry-centric.

-looks like Arthur's about to snap and go bonkers. He has a lot of pent up rage.

-If Arthur's evil, why didn't Merlin just zap/freeze him then and there and save everyone some time?

-not believable that Hook would just vanish from Emma's side in Camelot

-How did Violet get her hands on a cellphone/learn to text? Did Henry give her a phone in offscreensville?

- I didn't really mind the teeny-bopper angst.

-yay for Merlin!

-still don't care for Merida

-why sand Snowing if they're to be unsanded in the very next episode?

-lastly, I was giggling at all the sad faces Regina was making when she was looking at her memories

And because I may have missed it, was the dreamcatcher that Emma was crying over Violet's or the one she was using for everything in camelot? Or is it a mystery still?

[02846ls]

I believe the reason Merlin stood over the Dark One and missed his opportunity to tether the darkness to the broken shard of Excalibur from that individual is because the Dark One was actually his first love, overtaken by the darkness. Perhaps he was powerful enough to tether the darkness into the "dagger" without being bound to it himself but yet unable to bring himself to kill his first love in the process.

[Camera One]

 

I don't get why we had to sit through such a long flashback about Regina and Daniel that we've literally already seen frame-for-frame on the show, but not be shown important flashbacks of Emma's descent into darkness.

 

For that alone, this episode loses points.  It was lazy and unnecessary and a waste of screentime.  It was just disturbing that A&E felt the need to have Emma gasp and go "I'm SO sorry you went through that, Regina!!!!"  

[PixiePaws1]

Not unless there's payoff in Camelot after Emma goes dark and gets to bitch about having to watch Regina snivel when Regina took so so SO many lives and hence love from others. ...

[KAOS Agent]

 

And because I may have missed it, was the dreamcatcher that Emma was crying over Violet's or the one she was using for everything in camelot? Or is it a mystery still?

 

The dreamcatcher was the same one Emma used throughout the episode, which is why it seems like that wasn't specific to Violet's memories. It's possible that the dreamcatcher was keyed to Emma's memories and the housebreaking idiots just can't do anything right. It also begs the question of why they'd see that particular thing happen to Violet. Pretty convenient, but it's this show, so I don't think we're supposed to question things like that.

 

 

It was just disturbing that A&E felt the need to have Emma gasp and go "I'm SO sorry you went through that, Regina!!!!"

 

How about a similar flashback to Regina doing the same thing to Graham? I'm so sorry you went through that Emma. It would be completely understandable if you went on a murder spree killing everyone in sight grinning like a madwoman the whole time. 

[Curio]

It was just disturbing that A&E felt the need to have Emma gasp and go "I'm SO sorry you went through that, Regina!!!!"  

 

That entire scene felt like I being forced to watch Regina fanfiction Clockwork Orange style. (Side note: I've been clamoring on here for ages to finally have Emma learn about Regina killing Graham, but I figured it would never happen because these writers would never show us a random flashback to a death from Season 1. Right? Who cares about someone dying from that long ago? Well screw me with a chainsaw, because the writers basically were like no, no, Curio, we'll give you a Season 1 death flashback. But instead, it'll be of Daniel's death and we're going to force Emma to apologize to Regina about it. GAH!)

[Camera One]

How about if Emma saw Regina's role in killing Snow's father?  Never mind, she'll probably say she's sorry Regina was so ignored by Leopold.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Camera One

[Curio]

Or how about if Emma saw Regina's role in burning Snow alive? Oh, wait...

[Rumsy4]

Or even Regina killing her own father.

[Curio]

What makes Emma's "I didn't know how things were for you... I'm so sorry" response so frustrating is that Emma already knows the gist of what happened. It shouldn't have been a huge surprise to her because Snow has probably told Emma about it. Emma even snapped at Regina last season and said, "Forgive me if I don't take advice from the woman who held a grudge for half her life because a 10-year-old spilled a secret." So clearly Emma knows about Daniel's death. But did Emma, and more importantly the audience, have to sit through that entire flashback again? On a show that crams in so much plot in 42 minutes, we wasted a good 2 minutes on a scene (that we've already seen before) that could have been put to much better use elsewhere. The only reasons that scene happened is because a) A&E wanted to compare Emma to Cora later on in the episode, and b) A&E love to see Regina cry and love to see everyone feel sorry for her.

[YaddaYadda]

A&E wanted to compare Emma to Cora later on in the episode

 

That's what gets me. How many people bought that comparison? Emma at her most "evil" can't out-evil Cora. 

 

Cora was a psycho who then tried to become the Dark One. Anyone who apologizes for her death is stupid. It's like apologizing for the death of some dictator.

[Camera One]

I just watched the promo for this episode after the fact.  They were making such a huge deal about the Rumple-becoming-a-hero thing, as if it were the do or die event of the episode.  It was just bizarre to focus so much on it.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Camera One

[Dianthus]

YaddaYadda, on 29 Oct 2015 - 4:57 PM, said:

That's what gets me. How many people bought that comparison? Emma at her most "evil" can't out-evil Cora. 

 

Cora was a psycho who then tried to become the Dark One. Anyone who apologizes for her death is stupid. It's like apologizing for the death of some dictator.

I sure as hell don't buy it, but then, about the only thing I buy anymore from this show are CS and Snowing. See my comment above, re: Cora and the fish.

[legaleagle53]

I can see a difference. In the Camleot scene, he invites her on a date and shows off all the wonderful things about his world. His can of pop, his music, his movies. He's very foreign and he's obviously doing it just to impress. He's like a less loud Gaston with a bit of social skills. I can see a girl going "Woah, I don't know. Let's keep it in the friendzone for now."

 

In the second instance, he goes out of his way to help her find her beloved pet and make her feel more at home. He does something that is for her and something she can relate to. He listens to her and finds does something for her that means a lot to her. This is like Flynn making sure that Rapunzel has her very special day.

 

Plus, when you are bounced into a new world, sometimes you are more open to relationships. It's like going to camp.

 

And don't forget that neither Violet nor Henry remembers that first date in Camelot because of Emma's curse.  Henry doesn't remember being "friend zoned," Violet doesn't remember breaking his heart or having hers temporarily taken by Emma, and Violet's father doesn't remember treating Henry like something he'd just stepped in when Violet introduced Henry to him.  So of course things are going to be different in Storybrooke.

Edited October 31, 2015 by legaleagle53

[Camera One]

I wish Emma manipulated the memories but somehow I doubt it.  The whole point was to show Emma doing the same thing Cora did to her child.  Plus it would be too confusing to go back in a future episode to explain how Emma made it up.  I'm sure A&E would love to lord this over Emma for the rest of the series, about what she did to Henry's poor first love.

[babyPhat279]

Yeah, I think people are reading too much into this. I think Emma figured out early on that Regina's tear probably wouldn't work but knew she'd never sign off on Plan B. She looks shady AF when she's explaining to Regina why the spell doesn't work the first time. Who knows, even the "I'm sorry about Daniel, blah blah blah" was just lip service.

 

And it *is* the same dreamcatcher the entire episode, isn't it? Either that's the only one that matters, or folks were just not paying attention when filming. I know someone who is a script supervisor, I think she'd have a brain hemorrhage watching an episode of this show. If all the others were just to kill the nighttime hours, then I present to you Emma Swan: Her Lady of Boring-ness. If I didn't have to sleep I'd at least read a lot, or run around drawing mustaches on the Camelotians.

[Dianthus]

The thing with the tears actually made me think of a bit from the old show Parker Lewis Can't Lose. One of the characters (henchm...er...assistant to the evil principal) cries a tear that, when it lands, starts to smoke and hiss and eat its way through the floor. In the same ep, another character cries a tear that, when it lands, sparkles like a diamond.

[Mitch]

I want to see the neighbors do a fairy tale version of The Burbs. Emma has the perfect house for it.

I always thought that was the point of the show..we would have "Desperate Housewives" with fairy tale characters...with a little magic and mythos thrown in..but NOOOOO!

[Camera One]

If Dark Emma HAD to rip out a heart, how about ripping out Arthur's heart?  Wouldn't that buy them some time?

Edited October 31, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

The writers really harped on the Cora parallels this episode, huh? Nobility falls in love with a commoner in a stable, mother rips heart in said stable to break the couple up, sets a horse loose to manipulate the situation, claims it for the best. It's so heavy that we got a replay of the original event itself and Regina even points out the similarity. The writing is about as subtle as a sledge hammer.

[Dianthus]

KingOfHearts, on 31 Oct 2015 - 5:50 PM, said:

The writers really harped on the Cora parallels this episode, huh? Nobility falls in love with a commoner in a stable, mother rips heart in said stable to break the couple up, sets a horse loose to manipulate the situation, claims it for the best. It's so heavy that we got a replay of the original event itself and Regina even points out the similarity. The writing is about as subtle as a sledge hammer.

And it still doesn't work for me. Cora wasn't under the influence and she was supremely indifferent to other peoples' pain and suffering.

[mtlchick]

The one thing I took away from this episode is Pepsi is apparently a carnival in a can.  It is definitely not.  

[Dianthus]

Might as well drink battery acid.

[darkestboy]

I liked that Merlin was finally added into the mix and the Merida/Rumple stuff had it's moments but other than that, this episode didn't do much for me.

 

I don't really care about Henry/Violet, so Emma using her magic to get a tear from her son didn't really interest me that much.

 

I did like the last scene with Regina and Emma though.

 

The Camelot stuff isn't intriguing me, 7/10

[Camera One]

I mis-remembered this was Merlin's origin episode, but it was just how he turned into a tree so I sat through this entire episode.

I still think the Merlin actor was so charismatic and intriguing.  I swear, good casting was responsible for 80% of this show's success.

I don't think my feelings about this episode changed too much.  I actually didn't mind the Henry/Violet stuff as much and found it sort of cute.  Maybe in comparison to

Spoiler

Adult Henry and Murderella?  Maybe in Season 7, they could have said Violet's father re-married, and the stepmother was an Alt-Lady-Tremaine, and Henry went to save Violet who basically became Cinderella.

The Merida and Rumple subplot was unbearable to rewatch.  The whole unbelievable premise that he could be made in a "hero" made the subplot worse than everything else.  So a "hero" fights back except when it's

Spoiler

the actual "heroes" who are supposed to lie down to die and wish for the best.

I had to laugh because I forgot how important Merlin's tears were, such that "tears of lost love" can be the antivenom to the original venom of his tears.

Spoiler

How does this mesh in any way with the tears of the Savior in Season 6?  

As usual, they completely glossed over the whole culture clash with the "outsiders" coming to Camelot (touched on briefly with Violet's father and Henry) and the off-screen block party planning in Storybrooke.  

Spoiler

Reminds me when they dealt with the people from the Land of Untold Stories pretty much off-camera.

They kept giving Regina snarky remarks but isn't she supposed to be bosom friends with these people by now?  For example, to Charming, "Did you learn those big words at shepherd school?" or telling Hook she didn't care about him dying from a booby-trapped Excalibur, "but right now, you're useful."  There's friendly banter and then there's saying something like you meant it.

Merlin: "Being a tree... good for your skin."  I forgot that explanation for not aging.  Better get some lotion enriched with dragon's egg and tree at the drug store later.

Merlin tells the masked Dark One: "You destroyed her... the only woman I ever loved".

Spoiler

What a dumb mis-direct.  So he was telling Dark Nimue that she destroyed "her", the original Nimue who lied to him?  Merlin was the prehistoric Belle, making excuses for their Dark One lovers.

Every time Emma did anything (like freezing sanded Snowing, from the last two week's now-pointless arc), Regina was all "How did you get so liberal with dark magic!"  And then Regina casually apparated Henry's scarf to her hand in Storybrooke.  So that isn't dark magic?  

This show really did a number on the reputation of dreamcatchers.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

I'd re-read this thread before rewatching, so I was looking out for the timeline, and it still doesn't really work. Unless I'm remembering incorrectly, Emma and Regina run into upset Henry, Emma gives him the advice to be himself with Violet, Henry runs off to plan a date, Regina makes some comment about her mother, which gives Emma the idea of how to get the tears they need to do the spell. We're supposed to believe that the idea was to use the abundant natural resource of Regina's tears, since that's what we see next, the entire repeat of the scene we've seen before and heard about so often (since apparently they had no better way to fill the time). But that doesn't work, so when Henry runs up, upset about his failed date, his tears work. We later find out that Emma's idea was apparently really to rip out Violet's heart and force her to break Henry's heart. I'm not sure when Emma was supposed to have done this, since Regina seems to be sticking pretty close to her the whole time, and they act like they went together back to the tower to harvest Regina's tears, then went straight to the tree to do the spell. Did they harvest the Regina tears, then decide to meet up again later at the tree, and that's when Emma ripped out Violet's heart? Was the Regina tears plan always just a red herring, since Emma knew Regina wouldn't have approved? And where was Hook in all this? Up to this point, he's been the Emma whisperer, the one able to keep her grounded, and he's been by her side as much as possible. Did he just decide to take the day off for Reasons? We just had an episode about him helping her deal with it all, and now he's nowhere to be seen.

I like the theory from the first time around in this thread that the dreamcatcher in Storybrooke was a lie -- that Violet had friendzoned Henry on her own, but Emma was trying to give him a second chance now that their memories were lost and was taking the fall for round one, while also giving more of a reason to distance herself from everyone else while she carried out the crucial next phase of her plan. Otherwise, why would she have bothered getting out that one dreamcatcher and conveniently leaving it in her house? But I guess that's right along with her "ask me about my darkness!" appearance and behavior when it actually works against her goal.

They continue to weaken the concept of love if Henry's tears because his crush of a few days friendzoned him were equivalent to Merlin's tears from losing the love of his life to the Dark One. For once, I'd have to say Regina's tears should actually have been more powerful. But did they not consider Hook? He lost his first love to the Dark One, and now his next love is the Dark One. That's a better parallel to the Merlin situation Emma saw.

Spoiler

Given what we later learn about Nimue, that would have been a real parallel in so many ways. And since Henry apparently didn't even stick with Violet through high school and was perfectly willing to just leave her behind in Storybrooke to go adventuring, his tears seem even more shallow in retrospect.

I laughed so hard when Emma asked Rumple about whether he shared his plans when he was the Dark One. Yeah, Mr. "And when the stars in the sky align with the stars in the hat I'll cleave myself from the dagger" never told anyone what he had planned. Right.

Funny, after all the times the people from the fairy tale world have talked casually about dating, they had Violet not knowing what a date was. I guess Camelot is utterly isolated and cut off from the other kingdoms in easy walking distance, where everyone knows about dating. And they've already issued her a cell phone and taught her about text messaging in, what, a week in Storybrooke? She's still wearing her medieval princess dress, but she has a phone? I didn't see anything resembling pockets on that dress, so where's she carrying this phone that Henry is texting her on?

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Merlin: "Being a tree... good for your skin."  I forgot that explanation for not aging.  Better get some lotion enriched with dragon's egg and tree at the drug store later.

And they're annoyingly being coy here, since we'll see that

Spoiler

Merlin is basically the non-evil equivalent of the Dark One, so he's immortal. The tree had nothing to do with it.

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

This show really did a number on the reputation of dreamcatchers.

That really bothered me. Suddenly, dreamcatchers are automatically dark magic? Isn't that a bit offensive to Native American beliefs? Are they a thing in the Enchanted Forest world, or was Emma just making them because it was something meaningful to her, and because she was the Dark One they became dark magic? I went on a vacation to Oklahoma soon after this episode first aired, and since they have dreamcatchers in all the gift shops owned by the tribes, I couldn't resist buying one. It doesn't bring in any good memory channels, though.

[Camera One]

16 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Suddenly, dreamcatchers are automatically dark magic? Isn't that a bit offensive to Native American beliefs? Are they a thing in the Enchanted Forest world, or was Emma just making them because it was something meaningful to her, and because she was the Dark One they became dark magic? 

You mean

Spoiler

Prehistoric Victorian-era Seattle?

It sounds like the dreamcatchers were a thing in the Enchanted Forest, since Regina was aghast that Emma was using one and then explained it was used by waving it over someone's head (which the all-powerful-when-it-doesn't-count Emma said she doesn't even need to do that).

I was wondering why Emma didn't just give Rumple some fake memories about being a fearless hero instead of using Merida to "make Rumple brave".  Why didn't she just make Rumple brave herself?  She didn't seem that busy and it's not like Merida had any special powers except for the powers of abrasion.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

15 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I was wondering why Emma didn't just give Rumple some fake memories about being a fearless hero instead of using Merida to "make Rumple brave". 

I got into this recently on the All Seasons thread, but they really did cheapen and undermine the concept of heroism with this arc, what with Arthur being able to draw the sword and yet turning out to be so obsessed with power and glory that he turned evil, and then the idea that Rumple could qualify as a great enough hero to draw Excalibur just because he had the darkness automatically vacuumed out of him, just as long as he did one brave thing. And yet people talk about wanting to be heroes with a totally straight face. I don't think we were supposed to think that Henry was wrong or stupid when he was talking to Sir Morgan about being a hero (I mean, I did think he sounded like an idiot, but I don't think the show was deliberately presenting him as an idiot).

And wasn't being able to draw the sword in the stone (which, as I recall, wasn't Excalibur. That was given later by the Lady in the Lake, or am I mixed up in my Arthurian mythology? That's not really one of my areas) about who was the rightful king? It wasn't about being pure of heart or brave, or anything like that. So no matter how empty Rumple's heart was (which shouldn't have even counted, anyway, since he still had the same brain that had come up with all the evil schemes), no matter how brave he acted that one time, he still shouldn't have qualified to pull the sword. They'd have been stuck with Arthur. Or, if they wanted to do something interesting, it gives you the rightful ruler of wherever they are, so it should have had to be the rightful leader of Storybrooke.

[Camera One]

I thought Henry wanted to learn to sword fight because Violet's father didn't approve of him.  Regina and Emma's "just be yourself" advice doesn't really help with that at all.  It was clear Violet didn't mind that Henry wasn't a traditional Camelot knight-in-training.  

56 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Did they harvest the Regina tears, then decide to meet up again later at the tree, and that's when Emma ripped out Violet's heart?

That must have happened.  Emma wants a foolproof plan so she leaves Regina some time to recollect herself, while she went off and took a step to becoming the new Cora.  Or Regina needed some time to whip up the rest of the ingredients to make an antidote for something she had never ever done before, so Emma had some time to get to Violet.  Did Apparition Merlin never tell The Apprentice that he was tree-d using a spell with his tears and it would be *that* easy to free him?  Or maybe instead of "Don't touch the sword", Usher Merlin should just have said "To free me from the tree, get the tears of lost love from someone post-break-up, and it doesn't matter who, even teenagers who met the day before!"

I felt the same way as I wrote in my original post... I refuse to believe that Emma at that moment would have taken Violet's heart.  There needed to be more of an explanation or trigger for why she decided to cross another moral line... for example, maybe if the frozen Snowing were in danger if Merlin wasn't found immediately or something.  Knowing these Writers, they wrote the twist "What if Emma was JUST like Cora!" and focused on making sure we were surprised as the number one priority.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

There needed to be more of an explanation or trigger for why she decided to cross another moral line... for example, maybe if the frozen Snowing were in danger if Merlin wasn't found immediately or something. 

Oh, sanded Snowing were another weird thing about this episode, and, as usual, there's a timeline issue. At the end of the previous episode, it looks like they cleverly set up the situation for there to be people who were sanded into Arthur's worldview and people who weren't -- Hook and Emma were off in the field of flowers and Henry was off with Violet. So, you'd think that the next episode would really deal with the fact that the Charmings are totally on Arthur's side, but in a freaky way, while Hook and Emma and Henry are unaffected (I expected the Charmings to end up sanding Regina and Robin). But there's about 30 seconds of minor conflict and tension while Regina is all "are you sure?" before Emma just freezes them. But that's where the timeline thing comes into play. It looks like Regina and the Charmings have gone straight from the scene at the end of the previous episode to them telling Regina to get the dagger, so they're going after the dagger. Meanwhile, Emma is gazing dreamily into dreamcatchers. But at the end of the last episode, Emma was off making out with Hook in a field of flowers a good ride away from Camelot. So, how long did it really take for the Charmings to ask Regina for the dagger? If it was more than a few minutes, did she not figure out something was wrong? But if it wasn't more than a few minutes, how did Emma get back to Camelot, apparently ditch Hook, pick up the dreamcatcher, and start looking up Merlin's past? Did she only just realize she could do this? If not, why didn't she do it before?

It's almost like they're on two different timelines. The Regina/Charmings stuff picks up from last week's cliffhanger, with them immediately telling Regina they need the dagger (because, really, would Arthur have taken the chance of waiting to give them that order?). But the Emma stuff is a couple of days later, so she's come back from her outing with Hook, done some research, figured out the dreamcatchers, looked up Merlin's situation, looked at what happened to her parents, and then manages to show up in time to stop Regina from giving them the dagger.

[Camera One]

That's a good point.  The episode started with Emma just standing with the dreamcatcher, standing in front of the very tree Merlin was trapped in.  Did she look at the memory once, and then walk around looking for the tree, or what?   How did Emma happen upon the dreamcatcher showing Snowing being sanded by King Arthur?  Did Arthur capture their memories using one by somehow wielding dark magic?

[Shanna Marie]

11 hours ago, Camera One said:

The episode started with Emma just standing with the dreamcatcher, standing in front of the very tree Merlin was trapped in. 

I think they already knew about the tree because Arthur showed them. Wasn't that where Emma started to say she was the Savior but Regina forced her not to? They knew all along that Merlin was trapped in the tree and the Savior should be able to free him, but Regina wouldn't let Emma do it because it would show that she had light and dark magic and reveal that she was the Dark One. Regina was insisting on finding a way that she could do it, herself. But now Arthur knows Emma's the Dark One because of her parents' idiotic plan to tell Arthur all their secrets as a way of testing whether or not they could trust him, so they had to throw in other dumb obstacles. And Emma suddenly knows all about how dreamcatchers work and what to do with them when she didn't before, so only now does she know how Merlin got stuck in the tree and therefore how to get him out.

So, the chronology seems to be that the sanded Charmings approach Regina and tell her Arthur is totally okay. Then Emma comes back from her roll in the flowers with Hook, starts playing with the dreamcatchers, looks up Merlin's history with a dreamcatcher. Then the Charmings ask Regina for the dagger. Meanwhile, Emma has for some reason looked up what's happened with her parents with a dreamcatcher and then goes and stops them before Regina can give them the dagger. From Regina's side of the story, it looks like it all happens immediately -- they tell her Arthur's okay, then say he needs the dagger. But more time seems to have passed for Emma, and there's no indication that she noticed something was wrong with her parents so that she would need to look them up in the dreamcatcher. Or was she randomly looking at the history of all her friends/family, since Camelot doesn't have cable and she was bored? I feel like we're missing some scenes here. Like maybe Emma returns from her day out and interrupts the scene with Regina, Robin, and her parents and she notices something seems odd. Because of that, she looks up the history of Camelot and learns not only about Merlin but also about the sanding, which makes her look up her parents. But even there, wouldn't she have looked up her parents and taken action there first before looking up Merlin? Freeze them, then realize she has to free Merlin to save them, so she looks up Merlin and resorts to the desperate measure of making Violet break Henry's heart when Regina's tears don't work (though I still think Hook would have been a more logical candidate to get the "antivenom" to a spell using tears from having a heart broken by the Dark One. She could have said something mean to Hook and broken his heart rather than hurting her son).

These writers are really bad about writing the plot events they want to happen rather than writing the logical sequence of things that people would actually do.

[Camera One]

Ah, thanks for the reminder that Arthur showed them the tree.  I didn't rewatch that episode.  

Those missing scenes you inferred, with Emma realizing something was wrong with her parents, finding dreamcatchers to look up the history of Camelot, etc.  Those scenes would have been more interesting (and satisfying) than some of the stuff we did see.  They would have shown Emma being active, a hero we could cheer on as she made intelligent decisions and realizations.  And yet time and time again, the Writers choose to skip the deductions for the sake of surprising the audience.

Edited April 20, 2019 by Camera One

[tennisgurl]

I mean, obviously Violet was gonna head for the hills after her date with Henry. The poor girl has never experienced any kind of visual media, let alone a movie, and the first one he decides to show her is...Harold and Maude? Really Henry? Also, what 13 year old just has Commando and Harold and Maude on his phone?!? I thought Henry was supposed to be from the "normal" world now!

The tears for the spell to work is just so freaking ridiculous, even by this shows standards. I can get behind a LOT of ridiculous magic bullshit, but the magic tears, without a hint of irony, is just hilariously stupid. Maybe in a more straight up fairy tale that would work, but here, it sounds like something I would say sarcastically that somehow became a plot point. "Oh yeah, lets just have Regina's bog crocodile tears be harvested for their freaking magical properties God that would be so this show." And of course, we have to take a total stop from the plot to watch the Daniel death scene again, just to remind the audience of how much Regina has suffered and how much we should all feel so sorry for her, complete with Emma, whos life is basically a never ending series of misery who the universe stuck a "kick me sign" on her back at birth, saying how awful it must have been and how she has suffered oh so much. 

Speaking of her Woobieness, her "funny quips" have seemed extra mean lately, like telling Hook she only told him about the sword because she needs him. It doesent come across as teasing banter, it comes across as being an asshole who cant bother to care about any of the people she is supposed to be working with. Good guys really shouldn't say stuff like that. 

The Peters Pumpkin Patch place was kind of cute, and reminded me of what this show can do every once in awhile when it bothers to try and be clever.