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Celebrating 25 Years Of The West Wing

Spoiler Discussion Thread

Morrigan2575

By Morrigan2575
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Carrie Ann
Carrie Ann

Me for all of last summer hiatus and 5A: Me after reading the WM interview from a few weeks back about Felicity's arc giving her a more profound understanding of Oliver: Me after r

BkWurm1
BkWurm1

I tend to think that trying to make KC a place on the show had a ripple effect that did hurt the show pretty badly.  She's what turned Quentin stupid and into a creepy stalker.  So that wipes off the

calliope1975
calliope1975

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Trisha

Trisha

Everything You Need To Know About The CW Crossover
http://www.dose.ca/2017/11/20/everything-you-need-know-about-cw-crossover

Quote

The Bad Guys Are Bad. (Maybe Too Bad?)
The crossover borrows from DC comics history and the animated series Freedom Fighters: The Ray by featuring Earth-X, an alternative Earth where the Nazis won WWII and have continued to reign. But surely in this current political climate, the CW will shy away from depicting our beloved heroes as actual Nazis and… [reads episode descriptions] …uh, nope, they are really going with Nazi counterparts. But surely they are just featuring Nazis so we can see them get punched in the face as some kind of cathartic release and they won't have emotional arcs or be sympathetic… [sees the cast talking about a passionate kiss between Nazi!Oliver and Nazi!Kara]…um, ok. Wow. To be fair, Arrow once forced a lesbian to marry a straight man with zero plot payoff and The Flash has a character who refers to women by their measurements instead of their name, so perhaps it's too much to expect this particular TV universe to be "woke."

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Sunshine

Sunshine

So, if DarkArrow is married to Overgirl and this dark love story is the underpinning of the crossover (per WM) do they come to E1 because Kara is at the wedding?  Is there something wrong with Overgirl that requires experimentation on Kara to try and save her?  Just thinking of the picture with Felicity in front of Kara.  Does E1 Oliver infiltrate the Nazi’s by pretending to be EX Oliver because something happens to EX Oliver?

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insomniadreams88

insomniadreams88

I would love to see Walter again, but it is probably the lawyer in 607. I don't think we'll ever see Walter again sadly. 

And yes, Kara, "gross" is the only reaction to Dark Arrow/Overgirl. I really hope they don't expect anyone (other than Reddit, I guess?) to actually care about that "relationship." Just keep them both as far away from our heroes as possible. I'll just be here, looking forward to when our heroes take down every single Nazi character in the crossover. 

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SmallScreenDiva

SmallScreenDiva

(edited)

When Wendy first teased the idea of the crossover being the love story of Oliver and another character, I thought she was referring to Felicity whom she could not name because they were still playing the "they're all dead" game. But seriously, Kara? Like, why? Why would they think anybody would be excited about this at all? They're not even getting the comics crowd, are they? Were Green Arrow and Supergirl ever a thing in the comics? I mean, it still doesn't affect my enjoyment of Olicity. I don't need them to be a thing across the multiverse, especially in a Nazi planet. The only Olicity I really care about is the Olicity on our Earth. But I'm still wondering the why. Man, the Arrowverse storytellers absolutely suck. They always gotta add that one ingredient, that one twist that makes everything that could have been awesome, a miserable pile of shit. 

Edited by SmallScreenDiva
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Guest

Guest

Well, some people are already shipping them and reddit have given them a ship name so I think the comics crowd are loving it. 

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leopardprint

leopardprint

(edited)
16 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

When Wendy first teased the idea of the crossover being the love story of Oliver and another character, I thought she was referring to Felicity whom she could not name because they were still playing the "they're all dead" game. But seriously, Kara? Like, why? Why would they think anybody would be excited about this at all? They're not even getting the comics crowd, are they? Were Green Arrow and Supergirl ever a thing in the comics? I mean, it still doesn't affect my enjoyment of Olicity. I don't need them to be a thing across the multiverse, especially in a Nazi planet. The only Olicity I really care about is the Olicity on our Earth. But I'm still wondering the why. Man, the Arrowverse storytellers absolutely suck. They always gotta add that one ingredient, that one twist that makes everything that could have been awesome, a miserable pile of shit. 

WM's (who is admittedly unreliable) description makes it seem like this relationship is a major component of the story and that Oliver is going to witness enough of it for it to inform his life decisions. It's really baffling. In the hands of more capable showrunners, I think they could do some sort of banality of evil exploration that Nazis were normal people who do normal things like get married, have kids, etc. and not exceptional, as a sort of warning that anyone anywhere can be capable of these sort of evil actions and we should all be on guard because Nazis will appear wearing familiar faces... but they are not! They are using it to teach lessons about true love? WTF? 

Unless it's some sort of Nazi arranged marriage which given the descriptions it doesn't sound like it, I have no idea why they thought this was a good idea. 

But hey maybe they will realize that fricken dopplegangers from other worlds are not the same people! (CoughBlackSirenCough).

To quote Kara, "Gross."

Edited by leopardprint
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Featherhat

Featherhat

5 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Well, some people are already shipping them and reddit have given them a ship name so I think the comics crowd are loving it. 

Probably because they get excited about anyone not named Felicity. They'd get excited if it was Oliver/Killer Frost. I really don't mind. I'm wary of "Nazi in Love" as a storyline, especially as it probably involves a murdered Jewish girlfriend and these writers are not subtle. But it won't go on past the crossover and both Oliver and Kara have more than enough romantic shenanigans on their own shows for it to be anything. If they'd wanted it to be anything it would be Barry/Kara  (pre wedding crossovers) more so than Oliver/Kara who have barely interacted. And seriously, nothing about Kara's set up do far is going to be about OQ anything more than Alex is going to be pining for Sara. 

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leopardprint

leopardprint

3 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

Probably because they get excited about anyone not named Felicity. They'd get excited if it was Oliver/Killer Frost. I really don't mind. I'm wary of "Nazi in Love" as a storyline, especially as it probably involves a murdered Jewish girlfriend and these writers are not subtle. But it won't go on past the crossover and both Oliver and Kara have more than enough romantic shenanigans on their own shows for it to be anything. If they'd wanted it to be anything it would be Barry/Kara  (pre wedding crossovers) more so than Oliver/Kara who have barely interacted. And seriously, nothing about Kara's set up do far is going to be about OQ anything more than Alex is going to be pining for Sara. 

They also like Kara/Oliver because it's a long distance relationship which would mean little visible romance on their beloved slugfest. 

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Guest

Guest

11 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Of course, they are. Because it's anybody but Felicity for that crowd. RME.

How sad. I mean, not that I needed confirmation that Reddit was kind of like the bottom of the barrel of humanity but shipping Nazis really proves it. Yikes. 

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LeighAn

LeighAn

(edited)

Not going to lie since Kara is like Barry in that she gives off a completely sexless vibe and has a childlike quality and Stephen looks about a decade older then Melissa all I think is that Oliver and Kara is like a older brother making out with his sister or father making out with his daughter. Also when will these writers learn Stephen literally DOES NOT have chemistry with love interest not played by actresses named Emily. They've tried it with like 4 other actresses and zilch.

 

27 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Well, some people are already shipping them and reddit have given them a ship name so I think the comics crowd are loving it. 

I've also seen on twitter Sara fans all excited about Oliver and Sara all of a sudden based on the crossover promo. Like what? Who actually ever shipped Oliver/Sara in any serious way they had equal if not slightly worst chemistry then Oliver/Laurel. 

 

Im just thankful that we only have to deal with it for two episodes and afterwards it'll be all Olicity all the time and the Reddit fans can suffer and Super Girl and co fans wanting to claim Oliver can go back to their own lanes.

Edited by LeighAn
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lemotomato

lemotomato

39 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Well, some people are already shipping them and reddit have given them a ship name so I think the comics crowd are loving it. 

They're only shipping them because they think it "triggers" Olicity fans. 

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KenyaJ

KenyaJ

(edited)
7 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

They're only shipping them because they think it "triggers" Olicity fans. 

LMAO! Olicity is getting married. Nazi Kara and Oliver could have sex in front of Felicity and I still wouldn't care.

Bless the Redditors' little hearts.

Edited by KenyaJ
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Featherhat

Featherhat

18 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

I've also seen on twitter Sara fans all excited about Oliver and Sara all of a sudden based on the crossover promo. Like what? Who actually ever shipped Oliver/Sara in any serious way they had equal if not slightly worst chemistry then Oliver/Laurel. 

 

Well I liked Sara/Oliver more than a lot of people did here. I'm looking forward to the fact that she seem too have a big -ish role in the crossover. And yes since she and Oliver know each other well I like them acknowledging that, but it's gone so far beyond romance for the two of them that it isn't even a dot. In no way do I want her to get back with Oliver or return to Team Arrow, she's Captain of the Legends who all agree with that. 

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lemotomato

lemotomato

6 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

LMAO! Olicity is getting married. Nazi Kara and Oliver could have sex in front of Felicity and I still wouldn't care.

Bless the Redditors' little hearts.

Seriously. Shipping Nazis to spite other fans says more about them than it does about the people they're trying to upset.

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LeighAn

LeighAn

(edited)
12 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Seriously. Shipping Nazis to spite other fans says more about them than it does about the people they're trying to upset.

Not just shipping them. They are actually promoting and glorifying them. 

 

But then that doesn't surprise me. These are the same people who make violent visceral comments about Felicity's death and when confronted with the misogyny and violence in those statements come back with responses like "it's not about women it's about the fictional character" like the basis of misogyny and violence against women isn't exactly the fact that women are treated as insignificant and disposable as they talk about Felicity. 

Edited by LeighAn
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catrox14

catrox14

is it possible that NaziOllie is trying to get out of being a Nazi and he tells Oliver that he would die for true love rather than spend another day in a Nazi world. Like maybe Oliver spends time showing him what ture love is with Felicity vs Oliver learning anything from him?

1 hour ago, insomniadreams88 said:

I would love to see Walter again, but it is probably the lawyer in 607. I don't think we'll ever see Walter again sadly.

What about Helena? Or McKenna? Werent they  last seen in s2?

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LeighAn

LeighAn

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

What about Helena? Or McKenna? Werent they  last seen in s2?

McKenna left after season 1. There was rumours about Helena coming back- or maybe Marc said he wanted to bring her back I can't recall now- but if it were her I feel there would be a lot more hype. I think it's either the Kawyer or Walter and I'm going with Lawyer just because Oliver is getting arrested.

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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

(edited)
1 hour ago, leopardprint said:

When Wendy first teased the idea of the crossover being the love story of Oliver and another character, I thought she was referring to Felicity whom she could not name because they were still playing the "they're all dead" game.

I still think that’s what she was going for considering our Oliver and Felicity only just got back together a few episodes ago and are getting married after this next one. 

Edited by apinknightmare
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tv echo

tv echo

(edited)
1 hour ago, Angel12d said:

How sad. I mean, not that I needed confirmation that Reddit was kind of like the bottom of the barrel of humanity but shipping Nazis really proves it. Yikes. 

I think they'll hit the bottom of the barrel of humanity if they start cheering the death of a Jewish character at the hands of Nazis.

Btw, here's the WM quote about the crossover being Oliver and another character's story:

-- Per WM, the crossover is "really Oliver's (Stephen Amell) story... It's Oliver and one other character in the Arrow-verse's story. It really explores the question of true love, and what does that look like? It's emotionally really compelling, and you're going to be surprised by what he learns and how he learns it and who he learns it from. It's pretty crazy stuff, I'm not going to lie." (Oct. 4, 2017 TV Guide article, page 7 of New Spoilers thread, and Oct. 4, 2017 TVGuide tweet, page 1621 of Spoiler Discussion thread)

I am now not sure who she's talking about.

Edited by tv echo
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catrox14

catrox14

3 minutes ago, tv echo said:

I think they'll hit the bottom of the barrel of humanity if they start cheering the death of a Jewish character at the hands of Nazis.

Btw, here's the WM quote about the crossover being Oliver and another character's story:

-- Per WM, the crossover is "really Oliver's (Stephen Amell) story... It's Oliver and one other character in the Arrow-verse's story. It really explores the question of true love, and what does that look like? It's emotionally really compelling, and you're going to be surprised by what he learns and how he learns it and who he learns it from. It's pretty crazy stuff, I'm not going to lie." (Oct. 4, 2017 TV Guide article, page 7 of New Spoilers thread, and Oct. 4, 2017 TVGuide tweet, page 1621 of Spoiler Discussion thread)

I am now not sure who she's talking about.

Wild ass spec is Nazi!Laurel.

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tv echo

tv echo

(edited)

I came across this series of tweets while perusing another site (fyi, Cesca Garrett's twitter profile lists her current job as VP of Marketing for Walker Stalker Con & Heroes and Villains Fan Fest)...

Edited by tv echo
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Hiveminder

Hiveminder

What she says makes a lot of sense. It touches on why I’m not against humanizing villains even when they are truly despicable and evil real life villains like Nazis. Only depicting Nazis as one dimensional villains without human emotions like love, etc makes it easy to put them in a box and say that we, or our family and friends, or our fellow country(wo)men would never do that. It’s  important to remember that real, normal, everyday people can go down that path, and we have to constantly guard against it. 

You have to do it right, of course. I’ll judge whether the Flarrowverse does it right after I’ve seen it. 

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statsgirl

statsgirl

(edited)

I'll also wait to see how bad it is.  (I'm prepared for really bad though.)  The Redditors however, cheering Nazi Oliver/Kara based on next to no information, are the bottom of the barrel.

3 hours ago, LeighAn said:

Not going to lie since Kara is like Barry in that she gives off a completely sexless vibe and has a childlike quality and Stephen looks about a decade older then Melissa all I think is that Oliver and Kara is like a older brother making out with his sister or father making out with his daughter. Also when will these writers learn Stephen literally DOES NOT have chemistry with love interest not played by actresses named Emily.

Yeah, this is the part I'm looking forward to.

2 hours ago, tv echo said:

Btw, here's the WM quote about the crossover being Oliver and another character's story:

-- Per WM, the crossover is "really Oliver's (Stephen Amell) story... It's Oliver and one other character in the Arrow-verse's story. It really explores the question of true love, and what does that look like? It's emotionally really compelling, and you're going to be surprised by what he learns and how he learns it and who he learns it from. It's pretty crazy stuff, I'm not going to lie." (Oct. 4, 2017 TV Guide article, page 7 of New Spoilers thread, and Oct. 4, 2017 TVGuide tweet, page 1621 of Spoiler Discussion thread)

Can I hope that it's NaziOliver seeing the love of EarthOliver and Felicity and realizing how shallow his relationship with Overgirl is?

Edited by statsgirl
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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

Quote

Well I liked Sara/Oliver more than a lot of people did here. I'm looking forward to the fact that she seem too have a big -ish role in the crossover. And yes since she and Oliver know each other well I like them acknowledging that, but it's gone so far beyond romance for the two of them that it isn't even a dot. In no way do I want her to get back with Oliver or return to Team Arrow, she's Captain of the Legends who all agree with that. 

I`m the same way. I enjoyed them together and still enjoy their relationship - as friends. The way they acknowledged, at the end of last Season`s x-over, that it all kinda started with them was sweet. 

I`d also be down with good friendship dynamics with real!Oliver and real!Kara. Still starry-eyed looking forward to my sweet Olicity wedding. 

The Nazi versions of Oliver and Kara being married just strikes me as a gimmick. The fact that they are Nazis already tells me they are nothing like the characters I love from Earth 1 and 38. So, whatevers to their evil versions hooking up.    

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thegirlsleuth

thegirlsleuth

Unless she has inside information, I'm not sure why Cesca Garrett seems to think that the crossover is going to accomplish the goals she laid out, as admirable as they are, but I'm willing to see what east coasters say before I make a decision to watch.  I think the banality of evil argument is an important one, but I worry that they will talk about Oliver and Kara being evil without showing them being evil because you have to keep the people with your heroes' faces be at least kind of sympathetic.  Also, she talks about Felicity resisting, and clearly Earth 1 Felicity makes a stand along with all the other heroes, but if EarthX Felicity and other Jewish characters are made powerless and are in the grave before our heroes even land in EarthX,  I think that it lessens the impact of the Jewish resistance (although I'm willing to wait and see how they handle this). 

Finally, we have already seen American Nazis and white supremacists wearing Hydra t-shirts to the Charlottesville rally and endorsing the comic on the Daily Stormer website after Captain America was revealed to be a secret Hydra agent.  I don't think that having Nazis with heroes' faces helps matters.  If Nazi Oliver and Nazi Kara end up having great fight scenes or having neat stunts, I think they will have some people rooting for them, both those who just like the two of them being badass and those who already have Nazi sympathies.

Anyway, I remember loving the Dopplegangland episode of Buffy.  I think I would prefer this episode if Oliver and Kara were vampires who wore leather pants. I hope this episode is everything that Cesca Garrett thinks it will be.

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Sunshine

Sunshine

1 minute ago, statsgirl said:

 

Can I hope that it's NaziOliver seeing the love of EarthOliver and Felicity and realizing how shallow his relationship with Overgirl is?

Looking at WM’s statement again it makes more sense (to me anyway) if NaziOliver & Overgirl learn what true love is from the heroes.

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

(edited)

I think it sounds plausible with the spoilers out so far. 

So, they only make Supergirl have a true evil version since X!Oliver would be undercover resistance? It`s also not unlike what real!Oliver did, trying to fake Ra`s Al Ghul out in Season 3.  

Also, would love to see Tommy back, in whatever form.  

Edited by Aeryn13
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insomniadreams88

insomniadreams88

Those spoilers do seem plausible. Although if the grave photo is real and Earth-X Felicity died in 2017, how quickly did Earth-X Oliver infiltrate the Nazis and marry Overgirl? 

I will say that I prefer that it's not Oliver under the hood during the firing squad to my first thought upon seeing it in the trailer, that SA was busy filming something else, so they stuck Oliver under a hood. 

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Starfish35

Starfish35

That sounds legit.  It fits with the "dark love story" and SA saying something about "if you think what the story is, you don't."  It also fits with their love for shocking twists.  

This is the few times ever that I've been sorry to be spoiled, because that would have been a great shock moment. :)

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way2interested

way2interested

Just now, Starfish35 said:

That sounds legit.  It fits with the "dark love story" and SA saying something about "if you think what the story is, you don't."  It also fits with their love for shocking twists.

That and DR's comments about SA and EBR having to do major work for the crossover. I'll actually give some kudos for this twist, it definitely is one and seems like it might be a good one.

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tv echo

tv echo

(edited)

I hope it's legit because I was not looking forward to seeing any kind of Nazi 'love' story.

Although I have to say, it looks bad overall when Kara is the only titular superhero who has an evil Nazi counterpart - just like Caitlin was the only Flash character to turn evil when she got metahuman powers (while Barry and Cisco remained good).

Edited by tv echo
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Mellowyellow

Mellowyellow

12 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Those spoilers do seem plausible. Although if the grave photo is real and Earth-X Felicity died in 2017, how quickly did Earth-X Oliver infiltrate the Nazis and marry Overgirl? 

 

Yup I'm wary because you don't just suddenly decide to marry someone and they agree to marry you! Especially if XFelicity died in 2017 so he had what, a few months to marry Overgirl?

Doesn't make sense. 

Unless Overgirl has a thing for him and that's why she killed XFelicity.

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tv echo

tv echo

(edited)

Darn! So we're back to 'Evil Nazis in Love'? Ugh.

Btw, I had this totally frivolous thought, which I'm embarrassed to mention in connection with such a serious subject matter, but... if we do see Earth X Felicity, will she have dark hair? We know that our Felicity dyes her hair blonde (Ep. 120). So on an alternate Earth where the Nazis rule, would she bother with hair dye? Yet Felicity's blonde hair and glasses are like her trademark look.

Is the other reddit user's 'spoiler' about Dark Arrow being married to Overgirl still legit?

Edited by tv echo
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