Spoiler Discussion Thread

[lemotomato]

3 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Emoji = excitement, thoughtful, scared, sick and death?

In retrospect, I guess the sick emoji = seasick, because they were on a boat.

[Lady Calypso]

32 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I thought he did a good job on 501/502 and I don't remember having any real complaints about 508 that I would put on the director.

He's not a great director by any stretch of the imagination but he's gotten better since his S4 vanity crap, IMO.

He definitely got better in season 5, but I honestly haven't been too impressed with his directing skills, and there's consitently been a shot that he's directed where the camera spins or goes too quickly. I do remember in 508, the big battle at the end of the episode was not done well in my opinion. I remember thinking that I wish the camera shots didn't change every two seconds so I could actually see the fight. 

Again, he's directed some good moments, but I have had some complaints about the specific directing style of his every episode that Bam Bam's directed. 

[Guest]

Shaky cam is directing 601. Oh joy. Better get the buckets ready! Haha.

[Morrigan2575]

50 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

In retrospect, I guess the sick emoji = seasick, because they were on a boat.

Oh yeah, that makes sense. Unless sick= injured? Either works, guess we'll see...probably both LOL

[tv echo]

Considering who's directing and writing the S6 premiere, I'm now expecting lots of action, stunts... and Myson.

Edited June 17, 2017 by tv echo

[way2interested]

I mean, unless Brian or Ben were going to be promoted to show runner, Marc and Wendy were always going to write 601 and Bamford directing could just be for convenience (since it looks like they are starting earlier than Yvrshoots reported). And they have to address the "cliffhanger" at some point in 601 (which they are at least through the flashbacks), so eh? Knowing who's directing it doesn't really change what required exposition they need to get through for the premiere.

Edited June 17, 2017 by way2interested

[BkWurm1]

Quote

"No, Malcolm's not going to be back... Without going into - I love the show. I know that characters have to change. I know that characters have to killed off, shows must change, they must grow and develop. I get it. But... (sighs) what I don't - didn't agree with was the way they killed him. Because my feeling is that they did it because they didn't want any fans knowing that he really was dead. Because they - he died off camera. 'Cause when I had the conversation with them, I actually said to them, 'Will he be coming back? I want you to tell me.' They said, 'No, we don't have any intention of bringing him back.' So there you go... Thank you. You all tweeted about Black Canary. Why not me?"

Is it possible that TPTB were worried that people might be upset he's dead and so filmed it in a way so they could wink, wink and say he's dead but leave the audience certain he's not?  Not saying anyone would start a campaign, but they really aren't going to start one if no one really thinks he's dead or gone.  I was fine with Malcolm dying but I do feel cheated out of what should have been an epic death scene.  There was waaay too much history with that character to do it all off screen.  

I find how TPTB went about this kind of shitty and I hate that JB feels that way too.  Malcolm might have overstayed his welcome, but JB never did.  

Edited June 18, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Morrigan2575]

13 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Is it possible that TPTB were worried that people might be upset he's dead and so filmed it in a way so they could wink, wink and say he's dead but leave the audience certain he's not?  

It's certainly possible. My thought was they're just too chicken shit to stick to anything as permanent as a death at this point so they gave themselves wiggle room (again).

[SmallScreenDiva]

There was too much looking up at nostrils in 501, I think, plus the spinning shots that always makes me feel queasy. Seems like he's gotten over his fascination with nostrils in 508, but that spinning shot of Digg and Oliver in the park still got me nauseous. He's not as awful as he once was, but I still can't say he's become a decent enough director.

[wonderwall]

Well I for one am glad we're getting his episodes out of the way... Let's just hope he doesn't get 3 episodes like last year... I'm hoping for a max. of 2...

[Starfish35]

Yeah I don't really understand what they were doing there.  They've always seemed to love JB so why do it that way? 

[BkWurm1]

37 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

It's certainly possible. My thought was they're just too chicken shit to stick to anything as permanent as a death at this point so they gave themselves wiggle room (again).

Sure, but then why not tell the actor that rather than leave him with the impression it's never going to happen?  I think you are right, they are done with the character but are too afraid to really pull the trigger so they kind of ruined it for the audience  by wussing out instead.  

[catrox14]

Wow. Unless JB is playing a game and Malcolm comes back for some flashbacks, that's a really crappy way to write him out. It was an anticlimactic death for one of the most important characters in the show.I was really hoping we'd get a proper farewell for Malcolm. Yes, he was an asshole but he was a great villain, and JB deserved a much better on screen death.

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

Sure, but then why not tell the actor that rather than leave him with the impression it's never going to happen?  I think you are right, they are done with the character but are too afraid to really pull the trigger so they kind of ruined it for the audience  by wussing out instead.  

Yeah, i don't get that. Why not tell the actor? Of course this could all come down to contracts/money

[Primal Slayer]

That is weird to even say something so definite, especially for Barrowman who has probably been the shows biggest supporter. Even with KC they asked her if she would consider playing in their sandbox again right after they killed her off.

[lemotomato]

Based on previous instances of characters getting killed off, I think whether or not they come back depends more on what the actors want. IIRC, Susanna Thompson said she wasn't coming back and seemed to have turned down offers by TPTB (before agreeing to the 100th episode and 523), while Colin Donnell and Celina Jade were OK with making guest appearances. I don't think MG or WM have gone on record saying that Malcolm is gone for good, so I wonder if contract negotiations fell through, and JB is spinning the story to try to put some public pressure on them? 

The EPs' motto has always been "Never say never", so I find it unusual that they told JB "Nope! MM is gone for good!"

Edited June 18, 2017 by lemotomato

[BkWurm1]

3 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

I don't think MG or WM have gone on record saying that Malcolm is gone for good, so I wonder if contract negotiations fell through, and JB is spinning the story to try to put some public pressure on them? 

Possibly.  I swear one of them said "it was up to JB" but that doesn't seem to be his take away.  He seems genuinely regretful over how it went down so I just don't know.  

[Starfish35]

33 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Possibly.  I swear one of them said "it was up to JB" but that doesn't seem to be his take away.  He seems genuinely regretful over how it went down so I just don't know.  

Now that you mention it, I think MG said that, either on Twitter or Tumblr, can't remember.  I wonder what the deal is. 

Edited June 18, 2017 by Starfish35
Weird double post thing

[insomniadreams88]

To me, it just seems so weird that after a finale that left pretty much everyone's fate up in the air (on-screen, not taking into account series regular announcements/MG on Tumblr talking about storylines for S6/common sense) that Malcolm is definitely dead and they're not drawing that out over the summer too. 

It really all comes down to this:

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

JB deserved a much better on screen death.

[LeighAn]

Being cynical but I think the answer is pretty simple- money. How much an actor wants vs how much tptb are willing to pay. Or in the same vein as money, contract conditions- what contract conditions an actor wants vs what they will reasonably get from tptb.

 

I don't believe the reason Katie is still around is out of some great creative love that the writers and actress have for the character and keeping her a part of the series. I don't believe that Manu agreed to come back just because they finally did Slade right by him. I don't believe the reason Donna disappeared in the wind is because the writers couldnt find story to tell for her.

 

I dare say if it's the last we ever see of Malcolm that it boils down to money or contract issues (whether it be wanting more or less episodes, status etc).

[BkWurm1]

12 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

I don't believe the reason Donna disappeared in the wind is because the writers couldnt find story to tell for her.

I'm pretty sure CR has flat out said that in order to justify the travel, separation from her son, and the wanted time commitments, she felt she needed a regular's contract rather than just a guest star thing.  Given how much she was used in season four, that seemed like a reasonable request.  Their budget said otherwise I guess.  

Did they instead spend the money on Susan Williams?  

Edited June 18, 2017 by BkWurm1

[LeighAn]

9 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I'm pretty sure CR has flat out said that in order to justify the travel, separation from her son, and the wanted time commitments, she felt she needed a regular's contract rather than just a guest star thing.  Given how much she was used in season four, that seemed like a reasonable request.  Their budget said otherwise I guess.  

Did they instead spend the money on Susan Williams?  

Yep yet I'm pretty sure that was the reason either Marc or Wendy gave when asked about Donna - they had no time or stories to tell. 

So I'm guessing John's departure is monetary based as well not creative differences

Edited June 18, 2017 by LeighAn

[Primal Slayer]

Yeah I remember Charlotte saying something about contracts not working out which is partially sad since I actually liked her/Quentin together. Though it's funny if they did try to say "but budget!" since they only brought in enough people to fill a whole nother show and will have upwards to 4 new series regulars for S6.

[leopardprint]

22 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I think you are right, they are done with the character but are too afraid to really pull the trigger so they kind of ruined it for the audience  by wussing out instead.  

Their wishy-washiness is really what's ruined the show. Just commit to your story and stop fearing audience reaction. They can just delete their Twitter, ffs. 

Edited June 19, 2017 by leopardprint

[tv echo]

Edited June 19, 2017 by tv echo

[Lady Calypso]

40 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Mmmhmm. Honestly, I have to assume that there was some contract/financial issues that contributed to this decision. I don't want to put all the blame on Guggenheim and his team, because sometimes, there are things that can be out of their control, and I've seen no hate toward JB or Malcolm. But their choice in killing him off screen was a poor choice. It's not like they haven't done for sure deaths before (Sara) only to bring them back. They could have done the same for Malcolm. Even if it would have ended up frustrating to see him come back, the death scene would have been better and actually been a gracious exit for JB, for everything that he has done for the show. 

But then again, poor decisions are not uncommon on this show. Most of the major death scenes have been done quite poorly. Well, at least when it comes to the Lance sisters. They just need to stop wussing out. I get if it's a network thing and they have to do something in a particular way; but it's another when it's entirely the decision of the showrunners. And a death scene like this feels more like the showrunners deciding to get rid of him this way, to open up a door if contracts work out for the potential season 7. 

[statsgirl]

It really really feels like they didn't want him blown up dead so they can use Malcolm again if they want to.

5 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

It's not like they haven't done for sure deaths before (Sara) only to bring them back.

Yeah.  Other than Tommy and Moira, it seems like everyone one who has died has come back.

[Cleanqueen]

They also didn't need this large cast, so the budget issues they have is their own doing. They should've parted ways with him without necessarily killing him, I think that's what they were going to achieve. They probably do like the actor and want to see him in the future but JB probably wants more money. Dude does a con every weekend

[leopardprint]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

Yeah.  Other than Tommy and Moira, it seems like everyone one who has died has come back.

I guess only non-masks stay dead. Good thing Felicity is immortal. 

[Morrigan2575]

2 hours ago, Cleanqueen said:

They also didn't need this large cast, so the budget issues they have is their own doing. They should've parted ways with him without necessarily killing him, I think that's what they were going to achieve. They probably do like the actor and want to see him in the future but JB probably wants more money. Dude does a con every weekend

I don't think it's about Money. From what I've heard BTS as well as what both MG and Barrowman have said, it's more likely about commitment and episode count than money. Barrowman has no problem lining up work, has a ton of projects (writing/producing, etc) but, it's probably not the easiest thing to plan a schedule with the way Berlantiverse used him last season

Edited June 19, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[Primal Slayer]

10 hours ago, tv echo said:

I look at is as MG just trying to be sly without confirming MMs death and basically saying "if we want to bring him back, it is up to him if he wants to or not"

[BkWurm1]

6 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I don't think it's about Money. From what I've heard BTS as well as what both MG and Barrowman have said, it's more likely about commitment and episode count than money. Barrowman has no problem lining up work, has a ton of projects (writing/producing, etc) but, it's probably not the easiest thing to plan a schedule with the way Berlantiverse used him last season

I'd say that they want him to be available, but don't want to pay to reserve his time like they have always done before except for the added part of JB talking about how he understands how characters can run their course or something like that.  I suspect that they really did decide to kill Malcolm, but just botched the execution (no pun intended), liking the idea of keeping the audience guessing even if they might only ever intend to bring the character back in flashbacks.  

MG might say it's up to JB if he wants to return, but he's not said Malcolm would ever return alive.    

Edited June 20, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Delphi]

It's so hard to determine what MG is actually doing.   As so many characters have been written out for various reasons,  there's Susanna who has been blunt about thinking it was a terrible choice and refusing to return because fuck your lame comic show.   Then Colton was obviously a lie that everyone saw through but ended up being for a good reason.   We have no idea what's going on with Thea this year.   Katie is back again... for some reason.   

But John has always been pretty open and honest with the fans.   I don't think it was his choice and I doubt it was about money on his end.   To begin with I don't think he ever made his base pay on a CW show,  I think he just enjoyed playing Malcolm and his cast mates so in this instance I completely side eye Marx's comments. 

[Featherhat]

23 hours ago, leopardprint said:

I guess only non-masks stay dead. Good thing Felicity is immortal. 

Please do not jinx that. ;)

[Trisha]

Just listened to MG's interview on Superhero Radio.  The fact that he says there was a debate among the writers about whether or not Black Siren should side with Oliver or Chase in the finale makes me think she's going to side with Oliver eventually. If she was just a villain with no redemption arc planned, it wouldn't even be a question, right?

He also talked about being surprised that the new recruits were "polarizing" and "controversial" in 5A, and implied that 520 was always planned from the beginning of the season ("We always knew that by the end of the season we would get Oliver and Felicity in a circumstance where they would deal with all their shit.").  It happened around that time because they were budgeting for the finale and looking for ideas to save money with a bottle episode. Brian Ford Sullivan was the one who came up with the idea of trapping them in the bunker. He also said 520 was needed so they could have an adult conversation because "at the end of 415 Felicity just walks out the door and they never really talk about the things that broke them up in the first place."  (I guess we're just supposed to pretend the convos in 416 didn't happen?)

[apinknightmare]

5 minutes ago, Trisha said:

If she was just a villain with no redemption arc planned, it wouldn't even be a question, right?

A redemption arc is easy and predictable, so that's probably what they're gonna do.

[insomniadreams88]

4 minutes ago, Trisha said:

The fact that he says there was a debate among the writers about whether or not Black Siren should side with Oliver or Chase in the finale makes me think she's going to side with Oliver eventually. If she was just a villain with no redemption arc planned, it wouldn't even be a question, right?

But how would they do that after she sided with the man who kidnapped Oliver's son, who the show wants us to think is the most important person ever and because of whom, everyone else ceases to exist, even when they're also in trouble? "Oh, you helped the man who kidnapped MY SON!! but no big deal, welcome to the team?" Maybe it was a debate because they knew that they wouldn't be able to do a redemption arc is she sided with Chase? (That might be wishful thinking on my part.) 

[apinknightmare]

They had him team up with the dude who drugged his sister into killing a friend/ex-girlfriend, who was responsible for his father's death and Oliver's own stint on Lian Yu, and then another dude who killed his mother. It's complete garbage, but I think aligning himself with a chick who helped kidnap his son and tried to kill his friends is a walk in the park after that.

[Chaser]

 It makes no sense to turn BS "good". They've shown nothing redeeming about the character and it's creates problems with the whole Laurels death meant something thing. That said, I highly doubt they care. It's whatever they want to do. 

I'm hoping she stays bad but it wouldn't surprise me if they turn her good. 

[way2interested]

If it was a debate and then they chose to only show BS as fighting against Dinah on Chase's team, isn't that them settling the debate?

Wondering if the quote from the Media thread is referring to everyone dying as the thing people are focused on vs possibly something happening back in the city while they're gone, or if it's just wondering what they're going to do with the kid and they'll end up sidestepping it for another point of the plot, or if it's the idea of wondering if people are dead/alive vs. something in the middle  

ETA: full quote from EW:

Quote

“A lot of the discussion that we’ve had and a lot of the discussion we’ve seen online is very binary — people either live or they’ll die,” executive producer Marc Guggenheim told EW on our SiriusXM radio show Superhero Insider. “There are other consequences that can come out of what happened at the end of [episode] 523. While everyone is focused on one thing, you know us on Arrow, we may be doing something else.”

Yeah, I'm going with someone's in a coma or semi-permanently injured.

Edited June 22, 2017 by way2interested

[lemotomato]

Maybe a redemption arc is inevitable, but then again, this was the same writers room that, according to WM, "had a debate" about whether or not to re-start the Oliver/Felicity/Ray love triangle when they were discussing how to bring back Ray in season 4A. They throw lots of stupid ideas around. Hopefully they realize that BS works better as a bad guy/nemesis for Dinah and/or Lance.

ETA: They decided they liked playing her evil. So there's that.

Edited June 22, 2017 by lemotomato

[Guest]

I'm just laughing at the fact that MG said they bought in new characters in 5a to keep the show from getting stale and not repeat storylines. Kinda hilarious when they introduced Roy 2.0 and Canary number whatever Dinah is. LOLOLOLOL. Okay, MG. You keep telling yourself that!

As for BS, a redemption arc is boring and predictable so will probably happen eventually. KC is better at playing villain but these writers never learn their damn lesson. Yawn. 

Edited June 22, 2017 by Guest

[Chaser]

Like I said, it wouldn't surprise me if they go that direction but in the end 5x23 offered no hope of redemption and it was a shade feat.

If their debate lead to that then debate away.

[apinknightmare]

I hope she stays evil, simply because I find her more entertaining/LOLworthy that way. I've been burned too many times though, so I like to prepare myself for idiocy.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Wondering if the quote from the Media thread is referring to everyone dying as the thing people are focused on vs possibly something happening back in the city while they're gone, or if it's just wondering what they're going to do with the kid and they'll end up sidestepping it for another point of the plot, or if it's the idea of wondering if people are dead/alive vs. something in the middle  

ETA: full quote from EW:

Yeah, I'm going with someone's in a coma or semi-permanently injured.

I took that to mean the explosion has longer lasting consequences other than death. So life changing injury or PTSD. Something like that. 

[apinknightmare]

Given the way they've handled long-term, supposedly life-changing injuries, that doesn't make me feel any better, haha. 

I would greatly appreciate it if that explosion blew out all sonic screaming capabilities though.

[Trisha]

I got a sense Black Siren's loyalties was a debate for that episode, but it doesn't mean her character is set in stone for S6. Here's what he said: 

Quote

Black Siren, we went back and forth. We had discussions about whether she should be aligned with Chase in the end or aligned with Oliver in the end. We went back and forth and debated the pros and cons of it and we really felt that true to Evil Laurel's character, she wouldn't help Oliver out in this circumstance. It made more sense that she would align with Chase; he actually is the one to thank for her freedom from getting out of the pipeline where she was held in Flash. It also gave us more interesting places to go with her character in season 6. 

So what I took from that is she aligned with Chase in this particular instance because she felt she owed him (she basically said as much in the ep). That could change in the future.  And now they're open to go "more interesting places" with her instead of her being aligned with Oliver from the jump.

One part I did like about the interview is what he said about Oliver is positioned in S6. Maybe he won't need constant pep talks!

Quote

He finally got to a place where he was ready to follow everyone's advice and discard the past and move on with his life. So the Oliver Queen that you'll meet in 601, he's still the Oliver you know and sometimes love, but he has a different sense of himself...Typically in act 4 of any given episode someone is giving Oliver advice. In S6 I think you'll see Oliver giving the people in his life advice for a change. He's been through 5 years of being this superhero and five years in hell before that. So he's got 10 years of very heavy experience to start to bring to bear, so we're seeing a more of a mentoring kind of Oliver as the people in his life face their challenges.

[tangerine95]

I'm not surprised if they talked about her siding with Oliver since a redemption arc is the most obvious way to go but I don't think it means they'll do it.I haven't listened but according to twitter they decided Chase made more sense because she owes him or something and because she's evil and they like her evil and are writing towards that.

Edited June 22, 2017 by tangerine95

[SmallScreenDiva]

52 minutes ago, Trisha said:

He also talked about being surprised that the new recruits were "polarizing" and "controversial" in 5A

For somebody whose business should include understanding and knowing his audience, he sure does get surprised a lot. I call this BS, though. They knew the recruits were polarizing before the season even started. They were aware because BFS felt the need to acknowledge on Twitter that there was a growing narrative online about the new masks taking over the season or something. So right off the bat, they knew the reaction was most likely going to be negative. And a lot of fans were very vocal about their concerns that focus on masks would mean Felicity & Diggle getting sidelined. They weren't wrong.

[Proteus]

1 hour ago, Trisha said:

Just listened to MG's interview on Superhero Radio.  The fact that he says there was a debate among the writers about whether or not Black Siren should side with Oliver or Chase in the finale makes me think she's going to side with Oliver eventually. If she was just a villain with no redemption arc planned, it wouldn't even be a question, right?

He also talked about being surprised that the new recruits were "polarizing" and "controversial" in 5A, and implied that 520 was always planned from the beginning of the season ("We always knew that by the end of the season we would get Oliver and Felicity in a circumstance where they would deal with all their shit.").  It happened around that time because they were budgeting for the finale and looking for ideas to save money with a bottle episode. Brian Ford Sullivan was the one who came up with the idea of trapping them in the bunker. He also said 520 was needed so they could have an adult conversation because "at the end of 415 Felicity just walks out the door and they never really talk about the things that broke them up in the first place."  (I guess we're just supposed to pretend the convos in 416 didn't happen?)

I never thought that Siren wouldn't be redeemed eventually. There's no way to sustain her as a series regular if she isn't.