Spoiler Discussion Thread

[blixie]

I hate that picture intensely. Like more than I ever thought possible. 

 

I'm invested in Tommy being alive, I do not care a whit about the logic, nor do I need death to mean something. I'd love to have Sara back too, but I'm not even sure bathing Guggenheim/Kriesberg in hot wax would convince them how bad they are at writing Laurel stories, thus Sara must stay dead dead dead.

[looptab]

I have a feeling that whoever tweeted the BTS of KC stunt double in costume got fired. I can't imagine they wanted people to know when Laurel suits up. Its too big of a plot point to spoil this early. 

Yeah, I thought it had something to do with that too. It kind of forced them to release them officially. True, we had pics of Roy's costume since June, I think, but that wasn't as big a plot point as this is. Poor guy

[JenMcSnark]

I'm kinda dreading all the online twitter/facebook hype this is gonna get though, even if it's hate. I wish everyone would just remain quiet if they don't like it. The negative buzz is still a buzz and this show doesn't deserve it right now.

Yep.  MG basically said that they love it.  

Access: What's the reaction been like? Personally, I've enjoyed seeing what Katie can do in this new kind of incarnation of Laurel Lance.

Marc: I think the internet, as the interneters want to be, is split and divided as they are with a lot of things on the show, which I always consider to be good. I like a difference of opinion and I like the fact that people are interested enough in the show to debate various different elements of it and plot turns. I will say for my money the proof is in the pudding that Katie's done the best work on the show that she's ever done this year and I think it's because of the storyline she's gotten. Laurel's always been a little bit difficult to connect with the main plot of the show because up until the end of last year, she wasn't in on Oliver's secret. So, it's always been a struggle to find story for her, just as it's a struggle to find story for any of the characters who are not in the circle of trust. I'm just excited that people are talking about it and I do think that there's been a lot of really positive reaction to it and we're only just getting going. We're really at the beginning of Laurel's journey, not the end, and that's exciting.

Read more at http://www.accesshollywood.com/arrows-marc-guggenheim-on-roy-twists-laurels-changes-and-what-really-happened-to-that-popcorn-bag_article_100641#digKOXvuBEetPFyR.99

 

Can someone post the picture that KC tweeted?  I don't follow her.  Thanks. 

[Ariah]

Well, here's one from EW: https://twitter.com/EW/status/532597654455595008

 

and she's holding the tonfa wrong, I think. I mean it's almost tokushu-mochi, but not quite.

 

And here's the whole pic on instagram: http://instagram.com/p/vT1c8yFS1f/

Edited November 12, 2014 by Ariah

[Morrigan2575]

Oh come on, we knew it was coming.

 

She does look strange (it's the lipstick I guess) but it was inevitable. As for insta!Canary - there may be a large time gap (half a year, maybe more) between 309 and 310.

It's going to make the transition a little bit more believable.

 

Now I keep my fingers crossed for this Canary to be shipped away to a distant city. That, or I'll fast forward A LOT.

Half a year? Where did you get that from?  The show sticks to real time, always has. They can't vary from that, especially now that they have a shared universe with the Flash, it would destroy their flashbacks.

[JenMcSnark]

Thank you.  She's pretty.  But it's weird to me that KC wearing a more conservative Canary costume seems more "sexy Halloween costume" than CL wearing the cleavage-baring one.  IDK.  Well, I really want to not watch tonight.  I'd rather not be disappointed.  What else if good on Wednesday nights in that timeslot?

 

Damn I must miss my punk days because I like that lipstick on her and loved goth Felicity's lipstick last week.  

Edited November 12, 2014 by JenMcSnark

[statsgirl]

Matt Mitovich said "Laurel simply wearing the costume and doing it justice/meeting its potential are two vastly different things, of course."

 

But that's doesn't help. I have no interest in watching Laurel try and fail and try again to be the Black Canary,  and take up even more time on the show.  

 

And now I'm thinking that Oliver being away is to give Laurel more screentime as she becomes the Black Canary.

 

MG saying that Katie is doing the best work she's done on the show isn't saying much, considering she was hired to be the leading lady and by assumption the best female actress.

Edited November 12, 2014 by statsgirl

[KenyaJ]

She does look strange (it's the lipstick I guess) but it was inevitable. As for insta!Canary - there may be a large time gap (half a year, maybe more) between 309 and 310.

It's going to make the transition a little bit more believable.

 

There can't be a large time jump unless there's a correspondingly large time jump on The Flash, and there's been no indication that that's happening. 

[SonofaBiscuit]

I find it interesting that MG is excited about the feedback, even if it's negative.  SA certainly did not seem happy about the negative twitter feedback.  I wonder how SA feels about the direction this season is going in.  Maybe he loves it...who knows.

 

I kind of knew that Laurel would be in costume after the mid-season break, but seeing that photo has really brought me down.  Even though it probably won't happen, I'll just hold onto hope that they are fast-tracking this to get Laurel off the show at the end of the season (I really think that they're fast-tracking this because they have literally no idea what else they could possibly do with the character...but fingers crossed for removing Laurel from the show).

[Ariah]

Half a year? Where did you get that from? 

My hopefull and delusional mind ;)

 

Really, it would be the only explanation behind the quick rise to martial art prowess - unless, naturally, she just suits up, but is still unable to fight well.

[JJ928]

So when we see Sara again isn't in a Flashback. So what are we thinking? Dream? Hallucination? I want the resurrection but I know that won't happen.

 

https://twitter.com/mguggenheim/status/532625876471406592

Edited November 12, 2014 by JJ928

[JenMcSnark]

I find it interesting that MG is excited about the feedback, even if it's negative.  SA certainly did not seem happy about the negative twitter feedback.  I wonder how SA feels about the direction this season is going in.  Maybe he loves it...who knows.

 

I kind of knew that Laurel would be in costume after the mid-season break, but seeing that photo has really brought me down.  Even though it probably won't happen, I'll just hold onto hope that they are fast-tracking this to get Laurel off the show at the end of the season (I really think that they're fast-tracking this because they have literally no idea what else they could possibly do with the character...but fingers crossed for removing Laurel from the show).

I'm going to give Stephen the benefit of the doubt that what really upsets him is the personal attacks whether they are directed at a real or fictional "person".  But perhaps debating the viability of a character in the larger terms of the universe, etc., and generating buzz is a good thing because obviously not everyone likes the same thing.  The buzz is going to draw people who might want to see a train wreck and then actually find that they like Laurel, etc. 

So when we see Sara again isn't in a Flashback. So what are we thinking? Dream? Hallucination? I want the resurrection but I know that won't happen.

 

https://twitter.com/mguggenheim/status/532625876471406592

Oh lord, she's going to be the angel on Laurel's shoulder as she goes forward in her hero journey.  Fuck me, I can't think of anything worse. 

[Misslindsey]

Sigh...I would rather have Thea suiting up than Laurel, even though I knew it would happen. I just do not buy it no matter how hard they try to sell it to me.

[Morrigan2575]

So when we see Sara again isn't in a Flashback. So what are we thinking? Dream? Hallucination? I want the resurrection but I know that won't happen.

 

.

Probably a video tape recording telling Laurel how she's the only one that can take up the Canary mantel and do it justice and that Laurel was always the stronger/better sister and how Starling and Ollie need her more than anything else in the whole universe...

[Kymmi]

This should certainly make the Arrow After Show and interesting watch.  Poor Stephen Amell.  LOL

 

I can't say I'm surprised, resigned is more like it.  If they keep her in her own stories, I guess I can just FF.  But I will miss the reduced screen time of Team Arrow.  If she's all up in Team Arrow business, I will have to see how much it changes the dynamic of what I like.

 

What is he talking about with the moment people have been waiting for since the first episode???

[catrox14]

MG seems to believe that bad publicity is better than no publicity.

[statsgirl]

What is he talking about with the moment people have been waiting for since the first episode???

Probably Oliver and Laurel making up past differences. As if the show hasn't done it a number of times already.

 

The idea that the show is going to go into the holiday hiatus with Laurel ready to don the BC costume and Oliver missing boggles my mind.  I can only think that there will be a good Olicity moment in 3x09 to keep people who don't like Laurel watching.  Because if Oliver and Felicity are still at odds, Oliver is gone from the lair and Laurel is suiting up, what's the point?

[loki567]

It's kinda amazing how one picture can utterly sum up a show's worse impulses. Not just in trying to desperately make Laurel happen, but the writers' refusal to exhibit any patience on any Arrow storyline ever. It makes zero narrative sense to have Laurel become a hero this quickly. And it's quite frankly creepy to the extent that they're having her Single White Femaleing her own sister. 

 

I can't think of any other character in the history of television where the writers have made one huge blunder after one huge blunder when it comes to a single character. Usually they take a hint, make the character have a smaller role or kill them off. With the Arrow writers, I'm afraid they're going to try and move her back as the show's major female character and Oliver's main LI again. 

[Kymmi]

MG seems to believe that bad publicity is better than no publicity.

 

It's trending on Facebook right now.  I've never seen a show promo (let alone a CW show) trend on Facebook.  Maybe he's right?  Pissed off fans and still engaged?  I don't know, that's all I got.  LOL

[apinknightmare]

It's trending on Facebook right now.  I've never seen a show promo (let alone a CW show) trend on Facebook.  Maybe he's right?  Pissed off fans and still engaged?  I don't know, that's all I got.  LOL

 

I wonder if it's because people are fighting with each other in the comments?

 

"I hate her, she's awful!"

"Anyone who didn't see this coming is an idiot!"

"Laurel is the true Black Canary!"

"Read the comics, you morons!"

 

Just ugly, never ending back and forth.

Edited November 12, 2014 by apinknightmare

[JenMcSnark]

It's trending on Facebook right now.  I've never seen a show promo (let alone a CW show) trend on Facebook.  Maybe he's right?  Pissed off fans and still engaged?  I don't know, that's all I got.  LOL

And absolutely reinforces what he said.  I bet he can't stop congratulating himself right now.  *sigh*

[Chaser]

Facebook can have some of the most vocal fans. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a lot of back and forth. 

 

But people talking doesn't always mean ratings.

 

ETA: What are people saying on Facebook?

Edited November 12, 2014 by 10Eleven12

[Carrie Ann]

MG saying that Katie is doing the best work she's done on the show isn't saying much, considering she was hired to be the leading lady and by assumption the best female actress.

 

It also doesn't say much when one person or other involved with the show says this exact thing like every three weeks, every season, all season long.

[Nagevs]

 

The idea that the show is going to go into the holiday hiatus with Laurel ready to don the BC costume and Oliver missing boggles my mind.  I can only think that there will be a good Olicity moment in 3x09 to keep people who don't like Laurel watching.  Because if Oliver and Felicity are still at odds, Oliver is gone from the lair and Laurel is suiting up, what's the point?

 

Felicity will be all loved up with Ray, they have so much chemistry, MG told us,remember?

 

 I'm afraid they're going to try and move her back as the show's major female character and Oliver's main LI again. 

 

This is what I've been thinking all along, MG is playing every viewer that wants Oliver and Felicity together. This year it's Ray next year it'll be another hero from the comics he wants to pimp (provided of course Felicity lives). MG is going to stall Oliver and Felicity till he decides the time is 'right' for Oliver to go back to Laurel.

[catrox14]

Pissed off fans will only give a bump for a short time. Then if their concerns are not assuaged or mitigated by enough good things they will leave in droves. The ONLY reason I'm still here is the I love Stephen Amell and this version of Oliver Queen and Team Arrow. If they dick around with that too much in favor of Laurel I'm out.

Edited November 12, 2014 by catrox14

[apinknightmare]

ETA: What are people saying on Facebook?

 

They love it, they hate it, she's the worst, she's the best, she needs to die, they're glad Sara died, etc.

[Chaser]

So nothing new then? Lol

[apinknightmare]

This is what I've been thinking all along, MG is playing every viewer that wants Oliver and Felicity together. This year it's Ray next year it'll be another hero from the comics he wants to pimp (provided of course Felicity lives). MG is going to stall Oliver and Felicity till he decides the time is 'right' for Oliver to go back to Laurel.

 

I know I'm probably being naive, but this is actually one of the very few things that I'm not worried about on this show. They've been so heavy-handed with the O/F symbolism that I really do think that O/L are no longer in the cards - canon gives them the room to put that romantic relationship to rest. I can see a scenario where the EPs believe Oliver isn't fully transformed into a good man until the woman he screwed over time and again forgives him and gives it another go, but they can easily show that forgiveness without having them get into a relationship again.

 

This is me wishful thinking, because that is legit the only dealbreaker with me where this show is concerned. Either Oliver gets back together with Laurel or I lose interest because it's gone way off the rails.

[foreverevolving]

I'm in a bind: I love Team Arrow, Olicity, there's Thea and Malcolm, hack even Roy is watchable. but anything related to Fakanary is pissing me off.

I'll to wait and see to decide if i'm gonna stop watching live, not whether she can do the part (cause yea we all know KC can't- i mean she's holding the damn stick wrong, even i know that!!) but if i can tolerate her.

 

Also, a friend said her custom looks odd, for a Canary custom. he's wondering(actually he's hoping) if by the end of the season she'll assume a different name.

 

ETA: i can't even bring myself to want to care more than a Hell No. no gif today people. I'm far too disappointing to care that much.

Edited November 12, 2014 by foreverevolving

[apinknightmare]

I'll to wait and see, not if she can do the part (cause yea we all know KC can't- i mean she's holding the damn stick wrong, even i know that!!) but if i can tolerate her.

 

And surely the people who arranged this photo shoot do too, which makes me wonder, just....why?

[Chaser]

Its funny, the more they push LL as Black Canary the more confidant I am in Oliver/Felicity. The Black Canary is a polarizing subject for the fans (mostly negative/some pro). Oliver/Felicity is their buffer for that (mostly pro/some negative).

 

I think people assume that if LL becomes a popular character, people are going to stop supporting Oliver/Felicity. I don't see that happening.

Edited November 12, 2014 by 10Eleven12

[SonofaBiscuit]

I'm in a bind: I love Team Arrow, Olicity, there's Thea and Malcolm, hack even Roy is watchable. but anything related to Fakanary is pissing me off.

I'll to wait and see to decide if i'm gonna stop watching live, not whether she can do the part (cause yea we all know KC can't- i mean she's holding the damn stick wrong, even i know that!!) but if i can tolerate her.

 

Well, I mean, she did try to shoot a gun with no bullets, so holding the stick incorrectly is consistent, I guess.

[apinknightmare]

Its funny, the more they push LL as Black Canary the more confidant I am in Oliver/Felicity. The Black Canary is a polarizing subject for the fans (mostly negative/some pro). Oliver/Felicity is their buffer for that (mostly pro/some negative).

 

I think people assume that if LL becomes a popular character, people are going to stop supporting Oliver/Felicity. I don't see that happening.

 

Yeah, they're able to do the relatively unpopular thing (Laurel as BC, and so quickly) for the most part because they're doing the relatively popular thing (Oliver/Felicity). They're hoping fans of one will tune in despite the other, even though I'm sure there are plenty of people who don't give a rip about either. O/L has been a drag since the beginning - it's one of the lasting criticisms about the 1st season. I don't see them sinking a popular ship to go back to that failure of a relationship, and canon gives them room to breathe in the BC/GA romance department.

Edited November 12, 2014 by apinknightmare

[dtissagirl]

I'm pretty sure if we search for old Guggenheim interviews talking about Oliver/Laurel in S1, and compare them to him talking about Oliver/Felicity in the ones that came out today, it's all the exact same code words that spell out "main love story". Specially 1. "slow burn" and 2. "on-again/off-again". That's their default romance plotting right there.

 

So, yeah. I think Oliver/Felicity are pretty safe right now. We're just not gonna see that much of it because "off-again" is their preferred mode of romance writing.

[calliope1975]

My concern is they'll drag Olicity out for so long that the other problematic parts of the show are going to irritate me so much that it won't be worth sticking around. Ray's their shiny new toy, and it appears they are going full steam with Raylicity. Maybe I'll just tune out until I hear something good is going to happen. 

[Carrie Ann]

I find both "slow burn" and "one step forward two steps back" funny and incorrect in this case. Because if they were doing a slow burn, they wouldn't have had Oliver declare his love at the end of Season 2, and have their first date/first kiss one episode later. That's not a slow burn. The second part is funny because if you do the math, you're only going backwards. Which...ok, maybe that's accurate.

[Ariah]

The thing is, they did the canon romance already: Arrow and Canary has been together, period.

I'm convinced they would not have brought in an obstacle by the name of Ray Palmer, if Olicity was not the big game. I mean, Ray could have been just a professional rival to Oliver, but the narrative makes him a romantic rival.

 

Also, Stephen Amell said at Comic Con that the Laurel/Oliver ship has sailed - that they will work together (obviously, right now), but they won't be together-together. That there is only one woman in Oliver's life now and it's - yup, Felicity. (Of course, the EP's can turn everything upside down in season 4 but... what would be the point?)

 

Regarding Laurel as BC? Maybe the producers want to bring Helena (Dracula is canceled, the actress can be free) and do the Birds of prey spin-off? Hey, they can even do a time-travel thing and get Barbara from Gotham. She's no use there anyway.

[ban1o]

It seems like The EP's were forced to release the photos due to the leak on twitter 

Edited November 12, 2014 by ban1o

[NumberCruncher]

Yeah, they're able to do the relatively unpopular thing (Laurel as BC, and so quickly) for the most part because they're doing the relatively popular thing (Oliver/Felicity). They're hoping fans of one will tune in despite the other, even though I'm sure there are plenty of people who don't give a rip about either. O/L has been a drag since the beginning - it's one of the lasting criticisms about the 1st season. I don't see them sinking a popular ship to go back to that failure of a relationship, and canon gives them room to breathe in the BC/GA romance department.

I don't worry about Oliver and Laurel together romantically again either. I think that ship has sailed. You can't create chemistry between two actors when it's been proven none exists.

I do understand the current trajectory with Laurel/BC and Olicity as being a way to make both the comic canon crowd and the 'shipper crowd happy. My only concern is that they spend most of the season ripping Olicity apart, hence driving those fans away, and then expect a rather polarizing storyline (i.e. Laurel as Insta-Canary) to carry the show. I get that Laurel has her cheerleaders, but from what I've seen, she's not the reason most watch the show. By focusing on her journey this season they're polarizing an audience that's already becoming polarized with the whole Oliver/Felicity/Ray thing. It's one thing to have one major storyline make up for an unpopular one, but it's another to have two very iffy storylines happening at the same time. I hope TPTB know what they're doing because it sure as hell doesn't make sense to me.

[ban1o]

Wow this has gotten a lot of re-tweets on twitter. Over 1,6 k tweets. 

[statsgirl]

Isn't it a different Barbara Gordon on Gotham?  She's too old to be Batman's Barbara Gordon, so I thought it was her aunt.

 

At the moment they're more interested in Oliver/Felicity because they brought in Superman to be the stall-ship for her rather that a C level actor that they brought in for Laurel, but again, that's not saying what they will do in season four.

 

I wish they would do a BoP spin-off as a mid-season replacement like Marvel is doing with Agent Carter.

 

 

It seems like The EP's were forced to release the photos due to the leak on twitter 

I think they were actually lucky it happened now because if they had been released after Oliver went away from Starling City and Felicity was dating Ray, people would have been  even more upset and less likely to tune back in in January. This way, they have time to get over it if the next episodes are really good.

[KirkB]

Well, I stared at the picture for a couple of minutes waiting to see what emotions it would rile up in me. Anger. Sadness. Disappointment. Confusion. You know what? I've still got nothing. My apathy for Laurel is so strong I STILL can't be bothered to muster up anything about this. I simply don't care. If I loved her or hated her it would be so much easier, but I have so little interest in Laurel it really doesn't matter to me if she's Black Canary or not. I am more bothered by what they did to Sara than what it does for Laurel.

Edited November 12, 2014 by KirkB

[wonderwall]

Wow this has gotten a lot of re-tweets on twitter. Over 1,6 k tweets. 

I can't really imagine it going any other way :p It's actually a HUGE development and Laurel Lance DOES have fans. I actually think more people are excited about her now... I don't really fall into that category, but I hope that she stumbles more even with the suit on. Also, I think she needs to lose the wig. It makes her look ridiculous. Oh and the black lipstick too. Not a fan. 

[ban1o]

Isn't it a different Barbara Gordon on Gotham?  She's too old to be Batman's Barbara Gordon, so I thought it was her aunt.

 

.

Yeah the Barbara Gordon on Gotham IS NOT Batgirl. It's either her aunt or mother (it's different in different comics whether Barbara is Gordon's niece or daughter. Barbra Gordon (Batgirl) is named after this Barbara. 

[dtissagirl]

I find both "slow burn" and "one step forward two steps back" funny and incorrect in this case. Because if they were doing a slow burn, they wouldn't have had Oliver declare his love at the end of Season 2, and have their first date/first kiss one episode later. That's not a slow burn. The second part is funny because if you do the math, you're only going backwards. Which...ok, maybe that's accurate.

 

Yeah, they're empty words. And it doesn't really reflect anything that's on the show.

 

It's like when Guggenheim was saying during the hiatus that Oliver and Felicity's relationship is so complicated. UH. Everything was super UNCOMPLICATED last season. Girl thinks boy is super hot and heroic and gave her a purpose. Boy thinks girl hung the moon and wants to be better for her. THAT WAS IT. Until this season started and you complicated it, dude, because reasons. And you're the one who brought in a third party that's gonna complicate crap even more, because he's kissing the girl next week. 

Edited November 12, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Ariah]

Isn't it a different Barbara Gordon on Gotham?  She's too old to be Batman's Barbara Gordon, so I thought it was her aunt.

 

I was joking ;) The Gotham Barbara is too told (hence the time-jump joke) and she's the mother (comic-wise) of the Oracle.

But she's as useless as Laurel on Arrow, so they're a perfect fit.

 

Any BoP spinoff with the new BC and the Huntress will be one sick and dysfunctional... sitcom. Two and a half vigilantees.

[Angel12d]

Wow this has gotten a lot of re-tweets on twitter. Over 1,6 k tweets. 

 

Yeah, people are retweeting it to hate on it too though so it's not all positive. But again, MG likes the hate because it's still buzz. I give up.

[Danny Franks]

Yeah the Barbara Gordon on Gotham IS NOT Batgirl. It's either her aunt or mother (it's different in different comics whether Barbara is Gordon's niece or daughter. Barbra Gordon (Batgirl) is named after this Barbara. 

 

She's not Barbara Gordon yet, because she's not married Jim. But yes, in the continuity I'm most familiar with, Babs is Jim Gordon's daughter, as well as being Batgirl and then Oracle (and then Batgirl again, because DC are dumb).

 

All that "slow burn", "one step forwards, two steps back", "fans love the ups and downs" shite is from the trite bible of every unimaginative hack TV writer out there. Nothing new under the sun, I just wish they wouldn't act as though they're inventing the wheel when they come up with another BS excuse to delay a pairing from getting together. Seen it all before, and probably done better than Arrow will ever manage. Sadly for Arrow, all the tropey, 'will they, won't they' stuff does not work for Oliver and Felicity. As I have said until I'm blue in the fingers ('cos typing), their relationship was always the opposite of angsty and dramatic, and making it those things, to fit TV romantic tropes, runs the risk of ruining it, and the show, in ways that can't be repaired.

[apinknightmare]

I can't really imagine it going any other way :p It's actually a HUGE development and Laurel Lance DOES have fans.

That she does. And I wonder how many RTs have a "no thanks" attached, because that's mostly what I saw on my timeline.

[ban1o]

Yeah, people are retweeting it to hate on it too though so it's not all positive. But again, MG likes the hate because it's still buzz. I give up.

1.6 k is a lot. though. How many did the Roy costume reveal get? I've never seen the any post on the cw arrow page get that many so quickly. 

 

Edit: never mind Roy's arsenal costume wasn't posted on cw arrow. 

Edited November 12, 2014 by ban1o