Spoiler Discussion Thread

[way2interested]

3 minutes ago, HighHopes said:

For me, O/F  getting back together really depends on how Tina goes. If Tina/Oliver become a thing and ratings stay how they are, then I'm at a 10% for O/F getting back together this season. If Tina/Oliver take off and the writers believe that viewers are embracing Tina as NuBC and the Tina/Oliver (BC/GA) pairing then I'm pretty sure it's goodbye completely to O/F. 

Ok, so I do basically agree with your logic (since that's pretty much how people in television do their thing anyway), and this is not me being snarky to you or anything, but it would make me laugh if after 2 years of romantic focus (3, if you count s2, which I personally do since honestly while I was watching s2 semi-live without internet searching I was already convinced they were doing Oliver/Felicity as the endgame pairing just by tv tropes alone), along with all of the "always," the "loves," the visions from Oliver, getting engaged, having the very specialized first date/kiss/time/proposal, etc. they would completely drop it for the entirety of the duration of the series for a character that we meet in almost literally halfway through s5 without any buildup for her. 

It could always happen, but smh at their logic for doing it or even attempting for setting up a new endgame pairing at this point. Not saying they have to go back to Olicity definitely or that they're automatically wrong if they don't pair them together again, but it would just feel to me that they would be randomly throwing away 3 years of a subplot for a very abrupt relationship. But hey, I don't know what's going on or what's their logic, so we shall see.

[HighHopes]

6 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

Oh yeah. A lot of people on twitter saw the whole "red pen & magic" scene as ship baiting - IMO it was them confirming that they're going to get married at some point. It was a scene that could've lifted right out but they kept it because they wanted to remind the audience they're not over and they're going to write back towards them soon.

I don't recall  these kinds of scenes for L/O in seasons 2-3. Hell, Oliver treated Laurel like shit - he yelled at her, told her he'd buy her drinks, was frustrated by her 90% of the time, dated her sister AGAIN... The writers kept hammering down nail after nail on that coffin... I don't see them doing that with Olicity. 

Wasn't the "I know you in my bones" scene in s2/3? If I remember correctly the L/O fans took that as a sign that a reunion was in the works for their ship too. (There was also some more L/O scenes that the shippers believed was proof that L/O were on their way back together). That doesn't mean that the flashback scene doesn't mean a reunion. But IMO, I need more than a flashback scene to 4ish years ago as proof that these writers are intending to put them back together.

1 minute ago, DrSpaceman10 said:

I saw this on SA's Facebook a few days ago, thought it was interesting. 

Generally curious, has SA ever talked about the comics and their importance before? 

[Chaser]

2 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

Oh yeah. A lot of people on twitter saw the whole "red pen & magic" scene as ship baiting - IMO it was them confirming that they're going to get married at some point. It was a scene that could've lifted right out but they kept it because they wanted to remind the audience they're not over and they're going to write back towards them soon.

I don't recall  these kinds of scenes for L/O in seasons 2-3. Hell, Oliver treated Laurel like shit - he yelled at her, told her he'd buy her drinks, was frustrated by her 90% of the time, dated her sister AGAIN... The writers kept hammering down nail after nail on that coffin... I don't see them doing that with Olicity. 

I understand the fandom feeling that way (esp with all the bs) but you don't remind the audience of something you want them to forget.

[Chaser]

1 minute ago, HighHopes said:

Wasn't the "I know you in my bones" scene in s2/3? If I remember correctly the L/O fans took that as a sign that a reunion was in the works for their ship too. (There was also some more L/O scenes that the shippers believed was proof that L/O were on their way back together). That doesn't mean that the flashback scene doesn't mean a reunion. But IMO, I need more than a flashback scene to 4ish years ago as proof that these writers are intending to put them back together.

Generally curious, has SA ever talked about the comics and their importance before? 

How fans take a scene and how a scene is intended are two very different things. I can't recall an Oliver and Laurel scene that was written with romantic undertones after S2, certainly nothing like the flashbacks in the 100th and the red pen proposal scene. 

Mostly I remember SA talking about how comics are their own thing apart from Arrow. 

[AyChihuahua]

10 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Ok, so I do basically agree with your logic (since that's pretty much how people in television do their thing anyway), and this is not me being snarky to you or anything, but it would make me laugh if after 2 years of romantic focus (3, if you count s2, which I personally do since honestly while I was watching s2 semi-live without internet searching I was already convinced they were doing Oliver/Felicity as the endgame pairing just by tv tropes alone), along with all of the "always," the "loves," the visions from Oliver, getting engaged, having the very specialized first date/kiss/time/proposal, etc. they would completely drop it for the entirety of the duration of the series for a character that we meet in almost literally halfway through s5 without any buildup for her. 

It could always happen, but smh at their logic for doing it or even attempting for setting up a new endgame pairing at this point. Not saying they have to go back to Olicity definitely or that they're automatically wrong if they don't pair them together again, but it would just feel to me that they would be randomly throwing away 3 years of a subplot for a very abrupt relationship. But hey, I don't know what's going on or what's their logic, so we shall see.

This sounds so convincing, for really any normal tv show, but they are doing the WEIRDEST stuff I can remember any tv show ever doing. There's basically no sense to any of it, except outside forces to some degree.

[Chaser]

Don't know if means anything but JH liked a few Felicity/Tina tweets and the BFS tweet about Felicitys story this season. 

[wonderwall]

11 minutes ago, HighHopes said:

Wasn't the "I know you in my bones" scene in s2/3? If I remember correctly the L/O fans took that as a sign that a reunion was in the works for their ship too. (There was also some more L/O scenes that the shippers believed was proof that L/O were on their way back together). That doesn't mean that the flashback scene doesn't mean a reunion. But IMO, I need more than a flashback scene to 4ish years ago as proof that these writers are intending to put them back together.

Sorry that scene wasn't romantic at all nor do I think of it as a positive for L/O. Laurel told Oliver that she knew him in his bones, then hugged him which made Oliver look like he smelled a dead rat somewhere close by... Anyways, that hug and Laurel's speech didn't even affect Oliver until she gave him vital information he could use to take down Slade. So it wasn't Laurel that changed his mind (she doesn't affect him whatsoever), it was the information she had.

That scene wasn't romantic in the way the red pen & magic scene was what with the heart eyes and Oliver literally getting down on one knee.

Just now, Chaser said:

Don't know if means anything but JH liked a few Felicity/Tina tweets and the BFS tweet about Felicitys story this season. 

I hope it means good things :)

[HighHopes]

1 minute ago, wonderwall said:

Sorry that scene wasn't romantic at all nor do I think of it as a positive for L/O. Laurel told Oliver that she knew him in his bones, then hugged him which made Oliver look like he smelled a dead rat somewhere close by... Anyways, that hug and Laurel's speech didn't even affect Oliver until she gave him vital information he could use to take down Slade. So it wasn't Laurel that changed his mind (she doesn't affect him whatsoever), it was the information she had.

Not trying to be rude, but for anti-LO people, that scene read as not romantic and not positive. However, for those L/O fans it was positive. Just like the recent F/O flashbacks, for O/F fans they are positive. But for non-O/F fans, like myself, I don't see them that way. Scenes are what we make them, and we will see them however we want unless the show states "this is what this scene means". Hell, even when they do that and Felicity was on screen in s2 for the "corrupt those he loves" speech it actually ended up going nowhere. 

The fact that Laurel's info changed Oliver's mind is still Laurel changing his mind. That information came from her. Just like Felicity's speeches/info have changed Oliver's mind over the seasons. 

I am just saying, if they want to give me proof O/F are on their way back together, give me something in the present. Don't give me flashbacks to before they were ever together. That just proves that they were going to get together at some point, not that they will again. 

[AyChihuahua]

3 minutes ago, HighHopes said:

Hell, even when they do that and Felicity was on screen in s2 for the "corrupt those he loves" speech it actually ended up going nowhere. 

Off the top of my head Ivo's phone call to his family went nowhere, Felicity's big speech to RAG about raising an army and getting Oliver back went ABSOLUTELY nowhere, so far Felicity's speech about doing good through the chip/her company has gone nowhere. They drop threads all the time.

I really can't figure out what they're doing with O/F. This is not will they/won't they, bc THEY DID. You can't pull this stuff after an engagement, and now they barely interact. They throw in little treats, but those feel like crumbs that will lead somewhere if they want, won't if they don't. And if Oliver and Tina hook up, which I'm probably 85% on after that interview (I'm 99.999999999% on her being BC), I'm not sure how to work that in. Sara, redux? They date from 15-22 then suddenly Oliver states his deep love for Felicity and they reunite? I mean sure, I can see them writing that, but I can also see them keeping Oliver/Tina together, bc otherwise, where does Tina go next year. If DC wants a BC, presumably they don't just want a BC for half a season...I don't think Harley Quinn is coming out this coming summer, is it?

All just totally weird.

[BkWurm1]

12 minutes ago, HighHopes said:

Hell, even when they do that and Felicity was on screen in s2 for the "corrupt those he loves" speech it actually ended up going nowhere. 

Well the love part did. ;)

[wonderwall]

Just now, HighHopes said:

Not trying to be rude, but for anti-LO people, that scene read as not romantic and not positive. However, for those L/O fans it was positive. Just like the recent F/O flashbacks, for O/F fans they are positive. But for non-O/F fans, like myself, I don't see them that way. Scenes are what we make them, and we will see them however we want unless the show states "this is what this scene means". Hell, even when they do that and Felicity was on screen in s2 for the "corrupt those he loves" speech it actually ended up going nowhere. 

No I understand what you're saying. I'm trying to view it objectively here. Let's look at what happened without adding much colored commentary:

The L/O scene:

• Oliver wants to give himself up to Slade and Laurel finds out and tells him to fight
• Laurel tells Oliver she knows him in her bones showing that they've known each other for a long while
• This doesn't affect Oliver at all nor does the hug - he still wants to hand himself over
• Laurel tells him about Blood
• Oliver's ears perk up and that is finally what changes his mind 

In this scene - Oliver wasn't affected by Laurel or her hug. It was also important for the plot in order for Oliver to find out about Blood. That's why having Laurel talking to Oliver was important. 

The O/F scene:

• Oliver walks into the IT Room and asks Felicity to help
• Felicity babbles like her season 1 self while Oliver literally looks at her affectionately (and smiling - something S1 Oliver didn't do much or at all)
• Felicity says her fingers are like magic and does what Oliver asks her
• Symbolic red pen falls on the floor - Oliver gets down on one knee (which he didn't have to) like how any man does when he proposes) then stands up and gives it to her
• Oliver then tells Felicity he believes in magic (which either could mean he believes in Felicity or something else completely) 

This scene wasn't integral to the plot, it was rather superfluous unlike the scene with Laurel/Oliver. It also had more romantic undertones to it as well just by reading a play by play of what happened. If you were to objectively say which one was more romantic which one would you choose?

Also, yes Felicity's speeches changed Oliver's mind before but that was because of Felicity's belief in him that pushed him harder, imo that's completely different and a lot more intimate than cold hard facts changing Oliver's mind. 

14 minutes ago, HighHopes said:

I am just saying, if they want to give me proof O/F are on their way back together, give me something in the present. Don't give me flashbacks to before they were ever together. That just proves that they were going to get together at some point, not that they will again. 

Also - that scene didn't have to convince you. I didn't say that it did. I just said that it convinced me. If you need more then OK - I can't stop you. But for me it was enough. 

[Sunshine]

7 minutes ago, HighHopes said:

 Scenes are what we make them, and we will see them however we want unless the show states "this is what this scene means".  

An example of this:  I saw a couple of  tweets on twitter today from someone who is sure Laurel and Ollie are getting back together based on 5.08 & 5.09. The gist of his multiple tweets was that when Oliver saw the (paraphrasing) horrible Olicity montage Oliver said it wasn't right.  The tweeter didn't see it as Oliver realizing something was wrong because it was an alien induced world with Diggle!Arrow & Felicity in the bunker.  Oliver was saying that Olicity was wrong.  

[statsgirl]

SA said that the red pen scene wasn't a last minute thing but was always in the script because it advance the plot.  It's true that Oliver remembered the address from it but that could have been written another way.  So it was in there to remind viewers that Oliver/Felicity is "magic".

I'm 98% convinced that Tina will be NuBC because SA talked about the importance of the Black Canary in the comic book world, something he's never done before.

I'm going with a 40% chance that she'll be Oliver's love interest and only because these writers don't know how to keep a couple apart other than by giving them another person as a love interest.  Not a good idea, IMO if they want people to like Tina.

[Sunshine]

2 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

SA said that the red pen scene wasn't a last minute thing but was always in the script because it advance the plot.  It's true that Oliver remembered the address from it but that could have been written another way.  So it was in there to remind viewers that Oliver/Felicity is "magic".

 

If you look at that scene from another angle it is also a bread crumb to get to Felicity's 5B arc.  Curtis has just said to her "I have to be true to who I am." She glances at a red pen then we go to flashback and we see her with a red pen in her hand.  She talks to Oliver about her "magic" fingers and how she can find things you just can't google.  When she gives him the number and sends the pen flying he does get down in a traditional marriage proposal stance to retrieve it.  He hands it back and says he believes in magic.  Whether you see it as such might depend on how you view Olicity (pro or anti).  It ends with Oliver present day remembering the address.  It does advance the plot of 5.09 in that respect.  Maybe it also advances 1 or 2 other plot points.  Maybe not. 

Without today's spoiler about Felicity I might not have given that flashback much thought. 

[BkWurm1]

4 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

If you look at that scene from another angle it is also a bread crumb to get to Felicity's 5B arc.  Curtis has just said to her "I have to be true to who I am." She glances at a red pen then we go to flashback and we see her with a red pen in her hand.  She talks to Oliver about her "magic" fingers and how she can find things you just can't google.  When she gives him the number and sends the pen flying he does get down in a traditional marriage proposal stance to retrieve it.  He hands it back and says he believes in magic.  Whether you see it as such might depend on how you view Olicity (pro or anti).  It ends with Oliver present day remembering the address.  It does advance the plot of 5.09 in that respect.  Maybe it also advances 1 or 2 other plot points.  Maybe not. 

Without today's spoiler about Felicity I might not have given that flashback much thought. 

Nice catch.

[LeighAn]

Late to play but I'm at 85% Tina is Black Canary 

I go back and forth between 20% and 40% Tina is intended as Olivers love interest Right now that's only based purely on the sides that Marc claimed were fake and the fact that she ended up having the same name and what sounds like a similar back story as the sides threw me. But completely ignoring the sides there is no real evidence.

Im about 5% on Olicity getting together by Feb sweeps but 90% on them getting together by the end of the season. 

[Morrigan2575]

15 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

If you look at that scene from another angle it is also a bread crumb to get to Felicity's 5B arc.  Curtis has just said to her "I have to be true to who I am." She glances at a red pen then we go to flashback and we see her with a red pen in her hand.  She talks to Oliver about her "magic" fingers and how she can find things you just can't google.  When she gives him the number and sends the pen flying he does get down in a traditional marriage proposal stance to retrieve it.  He hands it back and says he believes in magic.  Whether you see it as such might depend on how you view Olicity (pro or anti).  It ends with Oliver present day remembering the address.  It does advance the plot of 5.09 in that respect.  Maybe it also advances 1 or 2 other plot points.  Maybe not. 

Without today's spoiler about Felicity I might not have given that flashback much thought. 

I was trying to figure out BFS tweet about her 502 storyline still paying dividends in 512 now that we have this new spoiler. The only thing that stuck out to me in 502 was Felicity hearing about Rory being a Havenrock survivor.

Any possibility that whatever Dark Path Felicity goes down actually involves (gasp) magic? Maybe the reason Rory doesn't go on the field trip in 511 is because his storyline converges with Felicity's? Maybe she wants to look for more magic Jewish weapons that can be used against Prometheus (for revenge or punishment)?

While I know some things are bigger than others, it seems like Felicity has a few balls in the air for 5B. She's supposed to help Curtis develop his Mr. Terrific tech (yes, I know that's not a positive around here). She's also supposed to (along with Diggle) help keep Oliver on track (probably not a major thing, pops up here and there). Finally we have the Dark Felicity path which seems to kick off in 10 (probably something small) and go at least until 12 hopefully through sweeps.

[EmilyBettFan]

The way they did that to Sara at the start of season 3, leads me to believe some shit went down with lawyers. 

[way2interested]

5 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I was trying to figure out BFS tweet about her 502 storyline still paying dividends in 512 now that we have this new spoiler. The only thing that stuck out to me in 502 was Felicity hearing about Rory being a Havenrock survivor.

Any possibility that whatever Dark Path Felicity goes down actually involves (gasp) magic? Maybe the reason Rory doesn't go on the field trip in 511 is because his storyline converges with Felicity's? Maybe she wants to look for more magic Jewish weapons that can be used against Prometheus (for revenge or punishment)?

I'm thinking that the dividends from 502 is the guilt aspect for Havenrock that probably goes along with bf's death that is the straw that breaks the camel's back for her darker subplot. Although now remembering that Rory isn't on that trip in 511, I'm wondering if that does leave him with Felicity and makes him realize that she might be going down a dark path and tries to confront her on it 511/512, since that was part of their deal in 504. Maybe she does seek out his help or he does help her, but I could see that as part of the "draw away from the team" metaphorically if she actually clashes with Rory despite their deal to look out for each other.

[Chaser]

What was the spoiler about helping Curtis with the tech? I missed that one.

[looptab]

1 hour ago, way2interested said:

 Although now remembering that Rory isn't on that trip in 511, I'm wondering if that does leave him with Felicity and makes him realize that --

--they want to bang.

Sorry, I took the liberty of correcting your post. :p

[dtissagirl]

4 hours ago, Sunshine said:

An example of this:  I saw a couple of  tweets on twitter today from someone who is sure Laurel and Ollie are getting back together based on 5.08 & 5.09. The gist of his multiple tweets was that when Oliver saw the (paraphrasing) horrible Olicity montage Oliver said it wasn't right.  The tweeter didn't see it as Oliver realizing something was wrong because it was an alien induced world with Diggle!Arrow & Felicity in the bunker.  Oliver was saying that Olicity was wrong.  

This is my favorite thing I've ever read.

[sara1121]

7 hours ago, wonderwall said:

A lot of people on twitter saw the whole "red pen & magic" scene as ship baiting

To me, it absolutely felt like ship baiting. It's kind of cute but it's something that happened years ago. A throwaway scene to advance the episode storyline and perhaps throw a tiny bone to placate the shippers for a few more episodes.

6 hours ago, HighHopes said:

I am just saying, if they want to give me proof O/F are on their way back together, give me something in the present. Don't give me flashbacks to before they were ever together. That just proves that they were going to get together at some point, not that they will again. 

I agree. The flashbacks, to me, just say that in the past they liked each other. Which I already knew. Flashbacks don't tell me anything about the present. What the present is telling me is that there's very little chance that they'll be together again.

Edited December 12, 2016 by sara1121

[Guest]

I thought the red pen/magic Olicity scene was both a ship baiting crumb and a reminder that O/F were once engaged and probably will get married at some point in the future. Though I feel like that could easily change. I'm not convinced they're getting back together at all this season because if they felt the need to do a slow rebuild to Olicity, how is getting back together a season after they broke up slow exactly? That said, I won't rule it out completely. I just don't know.

As for Tina and Felicity, I'd love for them to become friends. There's a dire need of female friendship on this show. And I think a lot of fandom might be slightly more receptive to Tina as BC (if that is what she's becoming) if she didn't become Oliver's love interest tbh. Sad but true.

[Midnight Lullaby]

8 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I thought the red pen/magic Olicity scene was both a ship baiting crumb and a reminder that O/F were once engaged and probably will get married at some point in the future. Though I feel like that could easily change. I'm not convinced they're getting back together at all this season because if they felt the need to do a slow rebuild to Olicity, how is getting back together a season after they broke up slow exactly? That said, I won't rule it out completely. I just don't know.

As for Tina and Felicity, I'd love for them to become friends. There's a dire need of female friendship on this show. And I think a lot of fandom might be slightly more receptive to Tina as BC (if that is what she's becoming) if she didn't become Oliver's love interest tbh. Sad but true.

I agree. I don't think they would have written that scene if they didn't plan to follow through sooner or later but I also think it was unnecessary in the episode and was put there in hope to please the fans of the couple because the rest of the episode was pretty tragic for them and there's a hiatus ahead.

I think they are getting back together towards the end of the season considering that Felicity will have an arc separated (at least emotionally) from the team and Oliver just killed her boyfriend..I think it takes a while to go from there to together again.

I'd love to see the women of the show have a meaningful relationship but if they don't even let Thea and Felicity share scenes I have my doubts we will have better luck with Tina.

I don't see Tina for Oliver or wild puppy at the moment..I might change my mind later but she also could already have a boyfriend/girlfriend.

I was thinking of the chance of the show backtracking on Oliver's promise to LL and have him say something like he doesn't want anyone to have the same title because that was hers but he wants to honor her request in his own way and he brings Tina on the team but she won't be BC. Because LL very specifically talked about another Canary to take her place and if Tina isn't BC or *insert color* Canary Oliver isn't honoring the promise he made to her and LL will be the last Canary. (Not considering her sister that she conveniently forgot LOL)

[ComicFan777]

I think the flashback reveals more than just a past event.  Since the scene implied that Felicity and Oliver had the same flashback at the same time, I think it also reminded the audience that despite them not being close right now, they still continue to have a very special and deep connection even in the present.

[Trisha]

8 hours ago, Sunshine said:

An example of this:  I saw a couple of  tweets on twitter today from someone who is sure Laurel and Ollie are getting back together based on 5.08 & 5.09. The gist of his multiple tweets was that when Oliver saw the (paraphrasing) horrible Olicity montage Oliver said it wasn't right.  The tweeter didn't see it as Oliver realizing something was wrong because it was an alien induced world with Diggle!Arrow & Felicity in the bunker.  Oliver was saying that Olicity was wrong.  

I genuinely feel bad for O/L shippers. Not for the ones who sent death threats or for the guy who hosts the Flash podcast (who is in full on gloat mode on Twitter rn), but for the nice seeming ones who I follow who are truly convinced the real Laurel is back from the dead and here to stay. They are living for that clip CW released on the app. The backlash at the end of 510 isn't going to be pretty.  They might be able to mitigate it a bit if the end of the episode shows BS immediately heading off to another show, but it's still going to be ugly.

I'm at 50% Olicity reunites by season end, 90% Tina is the nuBC, 10% she's the new LI (the bones of the sides might stay similar, but there's no way they had dialogue written that far in advance. Plus, after what happened with KC, it just makes sense for them to chemistry test every actress in SA's age range. The show probably has two more seasons; a lot could happen with cast changes/studio notes that isn't part of their current plan.)

But it's impossible to apply logic to these writers now. Most of the stuff people predicted over the hiatus that seemed way too pessimistic came true: the new LIs, the fact that they would both stick around longer than a couple of episodes, Baby Sara being erased by FP, Havenrock being glossed over, etc.

[Mellowyellow]

Based on your experience of previous seasons if they get back together should the interviews and promotional material reflect that?

Or do they normally say nothing?

[statsgirl]

I suspect they will say nothing because they want it to be a surprise.

One of the most consistent things about this show is that the writers generally get the audience reaction wrong.  Still.  Remember the furor over Felicity telling Laurel that she has a light Sara doesn't?  Completely gobsmacked them.

I suspect that they know they're planning to put Oliver and Felicity together in the end and they expect we should know it too so what's our problem?  They need this time to build up the new team and other storylines.  Calm down, we'll get to Felicity in the end.  Except then Felicity's Havenrock angst is only 2 episodes, and they put in everyone comforting Oliver and no one caring about Felicity.  How did that get past the writers and director?

I'm still trying to figure out how much weight I should put on the fact that the flashback was joint.  It started out as Felicity's, and since she had a crush on Oliver in s1, it's consistent that she would remember it in a romantic way in which he was way into her. But it ended up as Oliver's flashback so maybe the romantic gesture was his distorted memory.  Or maybe I'm just over-thinking it.

ETA:  still shaking my head at the sneak peek they released.  Yes, it's about Diggle in jail but it's also "LAUREL IS BACK" which is going to have the effect of making people believe that LAUREL IS BACK instead of them wondering what's going on.  This is a show where people come back from the dead regularly

And since the Black Siren appeared on The Flash, not on Arrow, not every viewer is going to know that she exists.

Edited December 12, 2016 by statsgirl

[AyChihuahua]

Another reason the flashback could mean nothing...he already did propose. I mean if it was foreshadowing from S1? It already happened. He went down on one knee. It happened, and NOW, in present time, it's over.

[tv echo]

18 hours ago, statsgirl said:

The new comics reboot has Diggle but no Felicity.  Is the Black Canary there too?  That could explain if they insist on having a BC on the TV show.  They can't revive Laurel because they absolutely, positively insisted that there was no take-backs on this death ( also Laurel wasn't the Black Canary of their dream) but they want a new black bird to rise again.

Black Canary is totally in the new comics reboot.  She's right there by Green Arrow's side and they even have steamy romance/sex scenes in the Rebirth comics (complete with flowery, smoochy dialogue). So it's Oliver, Dinah, Diggle and Emiko (Oliver's young half-sister).

10 hours ago, HighHopes said:

Generally curious, has SA ever talked about the comics and their importance before? 

-- Huffington Post (Jul. 29, 2012): On whether he was aware of the comic books before taking the role, or whether he had to go back and read up, SA: "I was equally unaware of the character before I auditioned. The audition went very well and so I thought about going and reading a bunch of the comic books [before filming], but then I was almost worried that I would mess things up. It didn’t seem to be broken, so I didn’t want to work too hard on fixing it. We had a creative team and they were so connected with the character that I figured whatever they put on the page and however they directed me would be correct. So I waited until after the pilot and then I read everything."

-- 13th Dimension (Jan. 28, 2014): On how aware is he of what’s going on in the comic books, SA: "It’s a completely separate bubble. I live in the bubble of our show and I actually don’t like any outside influences." On what he would tell fans who are a little bit behind, or who are just starting on the show now, to get them interested and get them to take the plunge at this point, SA: "I tell them they don’t have to be a comic book fan to like the show. I tell them to read some of the articles that have been written about our second season and the type of transformation that we’re making. And I tell them literally to watch the first two acts of the pilot. And by the time I break the guy’s neck at the end of the second act, if they’re not in, then (pause) God bless them."

-- TVLine (Jan. 20, 2015): On the romantic front, whether he thinks there is a place on Arrow for a great love (since Smallville had Clark and Lois, the Spider-Man movies always involve Mary Jane or Gwen, and a female is always a part of the hero’s journey), SA: "I think that both Laurel and Sara, for Oliver, were loves that were principally from the past, from before the boat. And any other sort of brief relationship that he’s had has been flawed. Felicity has clearly, over the course of two-plus seasons, grown into that love for him. It’s just a matter of whether or not they can ever find a spot where they can make it work on an ongoing basis."

-- Green Arrow panel at Heroes & Villains FanFest-Chicago (Mar. 12, 2016): On whether they plan to honor the original comics where Oliver ends up with Black Canary, SA: "I don't know. I don't know... I feel like there's an element of respecting the canon that is important. And I also feel like there's a reality to producing 23 episodes of television a year - how challenging it is. And, you know, you just got to press forward. So if things pivot, and that becomes the best option for entertaining television, or to [anchor/anger?] the viewers, or to make viewers excited, then that's what you do - as long as you keep people interested. But, um, you know, there was a point in time when I wanted to know everything that was going to go on in the show, and I wanted to know, like, long-form... Now I don't want to know. Now I want to go episode by episode." 

-- Facebook video chat (Sep. 27, 2016): SA: "Colin Calvert said that, uh, 'Hate mail is fan mail.' That's a good point. It's a good point. Hate mail is fan mail. So, yeah, to those guys whose childhood I ruined, to those guys who are using a power drill during my lunch hour when I theoretically could be napping, thank you. Thank you very much." SA: "Brandon Richardson said, 'Who could hate me?' Comic book fans. You'd be surprised. You'd be surprised. But it's not hate. It's all love. It's interest."

-- Facebook video chat (Dec. 7, 2016): In response to fan said that "it would be awesome if the Black Canary came back", SA: "And I agree. Lots of consternation within the fanbase about what's important the Black Canary - in the Green Arrow-verse. And I will say that - forgetting about the show for a second - if you just look at the canon of Green Arrow, John Diggle wasn't actually a character and he's indispensable. Felicity Smoak wasn't really a character and she's indispensable. So we picked and plucked from various parts of the DC universe. But if you're just getting into the canon of Green Arrow - the comic book character, not necessarily the show, but the comic book character -  ... Black Canary is easily the most important feature next to the Green Arrow. Period. Full stop. Forever. So it would be very nice to have the Black Canary back. I would agree with that."

Edited December 12, 2016 by tv echo

[Velocity23]

I must shake my head at anybody believing that the FB means an end for Olicity. 

[tv echo]

I feel conflicted - partly excited and partly anxious - about Felicity's new storyline. While she has always had the potential to become like her father, her flashback scenes with Cooper also showed that she does have some moral integrity. Considering all that's happened to her over the past four years, why would Billy's death push her over the edge? The most plausible explanation, as some of you have suggested, is guilt and maybe the culmination of everything bad that's happened. I also don't like that she's apparently going to be drawn away from Team Arrow (again), but I guess I shouldn't be surprised. They had Diggle kill his brother and go down a dark road. I just hope that she's not isolated on another story 'island' in a C plot. (Let's face it, Curtis/Mr. Terrific is going to get the B plot "because comics.")  I'm just not sure that I trust these EPs/writers to write Felicity's new story well.

Incidentally, perhaps prescience at the Men of Arrow panel at Heroes & Villains FanFest-Chicago (Mar. 13, 2016)?

• Fan asked if Felicity were to be a super villain, what power would she have and why. After DR said that she would be like Cuttler (the Calculator), SA said: "No. Her superpower would be mind control... She would have mind control. She basically has it already."

I may be getting to the point where I kinda like the idea of EBR getting her own show on The CW, so that I can drop watching Arrow and its unending circle of frustration, misery and hypocrisy.

I agree that they messed up the BC storyline from the start, with the sister-swapping and casting KC.  At this point, if they can't rewrite history, then the best they can do with that storyline is to establish as show canon that a kickass Black Canary exists on one of the alternate Earths who is Green Arrow's partner and love on that alternate Earth.

I don't think that Oliver & Felicity will get back together this season. I don't know if Tina will be Oliver's love interest, but she'll be somebody's love interest. (Like I said before, I think Tina will join Team Arrow this season, but they may wait until next season before hooking her up with anybody.) I think the EPs are planning for the show to last another few years and are leaving all options open in terms of a romantic endgame for Oliver.

Edited December 12, 2016 by tv echo

[way2interested]

21 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I suspect they will say nothing because they want it to be a surprise.

 

I suspect that they know they're planning to put Oliver and Felicity together in the end and they expect we should know it too so what's our problem?  They need this time to build up the new team and other storylines.  Calm down, we'll get to Felicity in the end.  Except then Felicity's Havenrock angst is only 2 episodes, and they put in everyone comforting Oliver and no one caring about Felicity. 

This is pretty much exactly what I think is going on here, considering the slightly exasperated tone of some of the responses from questions/tweets/interviews/etc. Except patience has never been on the mind of pretty much any tv viewer like ever, and people don't just forget/ignore plots that happened. 

[Sunshine]

Felicity had 2 threads playing out in 5.02 - recruiting vigilantes and Havenrock/Rory.  Either or both could be paying dividends in 5.12. If Felicity is the one who discovers Tina she could officially join Team Arrow in 5.12.  It also crossed my mind that Rory might be part of "the past" because of the promise to help each other not succumb in 5.04. I also wonder ed if it might include Curtis because of the BTS picture.  If Felicity eventually starts Smoak Tech Rory might be involved too based on the DNA scene in 5.09.

I am wondering if Felicity's arc actually starts during hiatus with hacking and 5.10-5.12 is when Rory or Curtis get clued in or her dad shows up.  Not sure how I feel about a random new character from her past showing up in a season full of too many new characters. I'm trying to figure out how they are going to portray this. I need more than Felicity in front of a computer scenes.  :-)

[Velocity23]

wow this board will never let go of the BC/GA endgame. Its been a topic for 3 years. And never in those 3 years it become true. I really don't see a scenario where they are gonna try with a new important romantic LI for Oliver outside of O/F. 

[way2interested]

15 minutes ago, tv echo said:

I feel conflicted - partly excited and partly anxious - about Felicity's new storyline. While she has always had the potential to become like her father, her flashback scenes with Cooper also showed that she does have some moral integrity. Considering all that's happened to her over the past four years, why would Billy's death push her over the edge? The most plausible explanation, as some of you have suggested, is guilt and maybe the culmination of everything bad that's happened. I also don't like that she's apparently going to be drawn away from Team Arrow (again), but I guess I shouldn't be surprised. They had Diggle kill his brother and go down a dark road. I just hope that she's not isolated on another story 'island' in a C plot. (Let's face it, Curtis/Mr. Terrific is going to get the B plot "because comics.")  I'm just not sure that I trust these EPs/writers to write Felicity's new story well.

Well, like others have mentioned, since her plot also involves getting darker in order to take down Prometheus, it can't end up being much of a story island since that's pretty much Oliver's storyline this season too. Curtis has been pretty sidelined this season (only really having an actual role in a quick scene in 501, a group scene in 502, and an actual subplot in 509), so I honestly don't think he's taking the B-plot from Felicity, if she is the one who has it (Wild dog might be another story, but I guess I could argue at least at this point that Felicity now has a plot for 5b, Wild dog does not).

Edited December 12, 2016 by way2interested

[insomniadreams88]

9 hours ago, way2interested said:

I'm thinking that the dividends from 502 is the guilt aspect for Havenrock that probably goes along with bf's death that is the straw that breaks the camel's back for her darker subplot. Although now remembering that Rory isn't on that trip in 511, I'm wondering if that does leave him with Felicity and makes him realize that she might be going down a dark path and tries to confront her on it 511/512, since that was part of their deal in 504. Maybe she does seek out his help or he does help her, but I could see that as part of the "draw away from the team" metaphorically if she actually clashes with Rory despite their deal to look out for each other.

I'd kind of like this especially since we haven't heard anything about what Rory's up to and he's had pretty much nothing to do except be in the background and wear his magical rags since 504.

But I'd also be annoyed if it's Rory who notices something is going on with Felicity and not Oliver, Diggle or Thea (I'm hoping that she at least tries to spend some time with Felicity after she lost her boyfriend even if she's not with the team) since they've known her longer. But considering how this season is going... It's probably going to be Rory or Rene who notices something's up with Felicity first. 

[lemotomato]

18 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

wow this board will never let go of the BC/GA endgame. Its been a topic for 3 years. And never in those 3 years it become true. I really don't see a scenario where they are gonna try with a new important romantic LI for Oliver outside of O/F. 

A season of Arrow is never complete without earnest discussion of BC/GA endgame and how Felicity will get written off. Every. Year.

[AyChihuahua]

3 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

A season of Arrow is never complete without earnest discussion of BC/GA endgame and how Felicity will get written off. Every. Year.

I'm not really sure why people can't just skip over discussions in which they're not interested, but this board (not you) seems to have become much less welcoming of differing views this season. The snark level has greatly increased.

Edited December 12, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[tv echo]

As long as Laurel/BC was on the show, there was always going to be discussion of a possible GA/BC endgame.

After Laurel's death, that discussion would've ended - except the EPs decided to change Laurel's dying words to about not letting her be the "last Canary," TPTB decided to introduce a new female character named Tina, the papps tweeted about a "new Black Canary," etc.

[Velocity23]

My honest question is did any of the paps reveal the new BC? Or did they just get info from a call sheet? Because those are mostly vague. 

[AyChihuahua]

2 minutes ago, tv echo said:

As long as Laurel/BC was on the show, there was always going to be discussion of a possible GA/BC endgame.

After Laurel's death, that discussion would've ended - except the EPs decided to change Laurel's dying words to about not letting her be the "last Canary," TPTB decided to introduce a new female character named Tina, the papps tweeted about a "new Black Canary," etc.

Also Guggie said that in 5B Oliver would turn to his promise re the specificity of the "Black Canary." 

[Velocity23]

That would imply that Tina would just follow Olivers lead? Even though she is described as unimpressed, tough cop? 

[AyChihuahua]

4 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

That would imply that Tina would just follow Olivers lead? Even though she is described as unimpressed, tough cop? 

I'm going to guess that Guggie knows more about what's happening in his show than we do.

Here is the direct quote: "and as the season progresses, eventually it will turn Oliver’s attention towards the specificity of that promise of a new Black Canary, and we’ll have to see what happens."

PLUS the pap report, which wasn't actually stated as being taken from a call sheet, that's just your assumption. (And would a call sheet say "Black Canary," rather than "Tina"?) PLUS LL's actual literal dying words. PLUS Steve's recent puffing of the BC character.

If you don't understand why all of that, taken together, has given a strong impression that there will be a new BC, then I don't know what to say. 

Edited December 12, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[emarasmoak]

If we are going to play predictions game, I have a lot of these LOL

99% on Tina being BC 3.0

80% on Tina real's name/ surname being Dina, Dinah, Lance and/ or Drake

90% on TPTB's plans including testing if Tina could be a LI for Oliver

100% on TPTB getting backlash if they try to make Tina a LI for Oliver

15% on Tina becoming a temporary LI for Oliver

0% on Tina being endgame if she ends up being a LI for Oliver

50% on TPTB's plans including testing if Tina could be a LI for WildDong

25% on Tina's becoming a LI for WildDong (because he is mostly disliked)

15% on Tina's becoming a LI this season (what about Vigilante?)

5% on Tina being introduced as Felicity's friend

5% on Olicity getting back together in Feb Sweeps

90% on Olicity getting back together by the end of S5

100% on Olicity getting back together in S6

100% on Olicity being endgame

60% on Felicity's dark path being related to Rory/ Havenrock

50% on Felicity's dark path being related to her father

20% on Felicity's dark path being related to Bratva

10% on Felicity's dark path being related to Argus/ Lyla

5% on Felicity's dark path being related to a superhero network

90% on Susan betraying Oliver

70% on Susan being evil & working for/with Prometheus

75% on Susan not being Oliver's LI by Feb sweeps

100% on Susan not being Oliver's LI by the end of S5

90% on Ragman not being a member of the team by s7

75% on Vigilante becoming a frenemy of Green Arrow (mostly a good guy a la Nyssa from the S2 finale)

80% on Prometheus not being the person Team Arrow thought he was in MSF

80% on Talia being in flashbacks and present timeline in S5

70% on Human Target appearing again in S5 and being part of some plot twist in present time

90% on MSF's Laurel being BS

95% on Arrow's (Earth 1) Laurel Lance staying dead

100% on backlash from LL's fans if she stays dead (I also feel sorry for the L/O shippers that believe that she is coming back)

[tv echo]

32 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

My honest question is did any of the paps reveal the new BC? Or did they just get info from a call sheet? Because those are mostly vague. 

-- On Nov. 1, 2016, papp tweeted: "#Arrow started the day shooting interior scenes in North Vancouver today with #Olicity  @WhatsFilming" and "#Olicity was searching for a new #blackcanary today onset of #arrow ... What does that mean exactly lol ?? More questions than answers lol" and "#Arrow wrapped shooting with exteriors at Vancouver dry dock with #Olicity and #laurel , ok seriously wtf does this mean ??!!" and "A full day of shooting #Arrow with #Olicity and #Laurel ... A mix of interior and exterior shooting , and no I do not have pics or graphs." (kingscourtgraph tweets, page 48 of Spoilers thread)

-- On Nov. 1, 2016, papp tweeted: "It's not Sara, Laurel or Evelyn. That's all I'll say on the topic for now (partly because that's all I know too) #BlackCanary #Arrow." (canadagraphs tweet, page 48 of Spoilers thread)

To be clear, I think it's possible that the papps could be wrong or misinterpreting what they're seeing. It's also possible that Tina will put on Laurel's old BC suit but call herself something else.

Edited December 12, 2016 by tv echo

[Velocity23]

So BC was only mention for the time when Felicity and Oliver were looking for the supposed BC? And it doesnt look like the Tina actress was spotted with a new suit. 

Edited December 12, 2016 by Velocity23

[Cleanqueen]

I kind of find it interesting that there has been no most portem for 5x09 and EP's trying to explain what that cliffhanger was all about. Poor LL fans.

And I am 80% sure Tina isn't new BC and 95% sure she isnt a LI for Oliver.

3 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

So BC was only mention for the time when Felicity and Oliver were looking for the supposed BC? 

Yes it was only mentioned by the Paps and no other source. I wonder if the call sheet specifically said "looking for BC"

[way2interested]

13 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

But I'd also be annoyed if it's Rory who notices something is going on with Felicity and not Oliver, Diggle or Thea (I'm hoping that she at least tries to spend some time with Felicity after she lost her boyfriend even if she's not with the team) since they've known her longer. But considering how this season is going... It's probably going to be Rory or Rene who notices something's up with Felicity first. 

I mean, not to be a downer, but Diggle looks to be in jail until 512 and Thea has an actual job (also her actual story island with Lance, even though I actually kind of like it, but to each his/her own), so I at least see reasoning for them not being directly tied to noticing anything 510-512. Oliver is kind of a different case, since for all I know he could be someone who notices/reacts (like how he noticed something was up with Felicity in 502), but he wouldn't be able to do anything about it since 1) Felicity probably wouldn't give him the leeway/acknowledgment/insight to since they don't have that relationship anymore, 2) he probably might not think it's his place, since he's kind of the one who set this whole thing off by accidently killing her bf even though he didn't even see half of the non-romantic setups between Felicity and Malone, and 3) other plots coming in, be it Tina or whatever is happening.

At least with Rory (probably not Rene because he's in the trip in 511 and he's had nothing to do with Felicity all season) it would make partial sense in the narrative, get a bouncing off for Felicity's thoughts, and would kind of look like to me that he'd be a support in her story rather than her story being defaulted to Oliver's (even though it would have to coincide at some point). Then again, my whole post is pretty far ahead thinking, so it's basically all guesswork.