Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Starfish35]

4 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I wonder if it's not something more simple -- like Caity just doesn't wanna touch that ish again. After the shitty way it went the first time.

It's possible, I suppose.  But I think there's more to it than that.  Caity not wanting to be BC again wouldn't cause this whole push to bring on a new BC to Arrow.  They would just have let the name die with Laurel.

[tangerine95]

7 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I wonder if it's not something more simple -- like Caity just doesn't wanna touch that ish again. After the shitty way it went the first time.

Can she do that? I figured if they wanted to make her BC, it wouldn't be really up to her. 

[calliope1975]

11 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

Thank you! I was hoping you would shed some light here. I figured SAG can't do much about making sure actors get promised roles, or anything like that. But KC probably could have a working conditions complaint on her hands. The show she was hired to co-lead hired two other female actresses, and put her in the drug-addict storyline corner.

Yeah, I'm trying to be, um, diplomatic, so I keep my job. :D Even the complaints about working conditions would have to be a breach of hours worked or meal breaks, things like that. If KC did have some crazy special provisions about being the only BC, from what I've seen, agents might call SAG to confirm that a breach had occurred and what the remedy is. For things like that, while I'm not positive, I seriously doubt SAG has any kind of monetary penalty, which is what's assessed when a contract breach is made. For those types of things, the agents would deal with the CW's lawyers. 

Again, I don't know if anything like this happened, and I suppose SAG's legal department could have gotten involved, but I've never heard or seen anything like that. Even times when I've experienced situations with high profile, series regulars, it was always a confirmation phone call and then agents took care of the rest. Unless it was a working condition, like once a series regular called to say it was freezing and there were no heaters on set, so SAG called production to take care of that. 

Edited December 11, 2016 by calliope1975

[Midnight Lullaby]

2 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

An actress who has to blackmail her way through a show because she is such a "horrible" person and thinking 2 actors are sleeping together, all BTS antics, that's all it boils down to. 

Too bad the "horrible person blackmailing her way through the show" is your twist. If that happened it would be more a case of an actress defending what she believes she is entitled to because of her contract. Nothing crazy or to be ashamed of.

[Trisha]

20 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Katie Cassidy said they when they approached her about the role, one of the things that attracted her was that she would be a superhero and do stunts.  I have no reason to doubt her since I'm sure the original intent of the show was to have Green Arrow and Black Canary fighting togethe

Yup. I was at a con during S4 and when Katie talked about becoming BC, she didn't try to hide her surprise/displeasure that it didn't happen sooner. She talked about how before S2 the producers pulled her aside to let her know that CL would be taking the Canary mantle and she was like "um, excuse me?"  (She then went on to say how she was grateful for the wait because it felt more earned when it happened blah blah blah.)

I think the original intent was for KC to transition into a superhero role by S2, but her performance and chemistry with SA in S1 made TBTB ditch those plans and try CL instead. But KC made a bts stink and eventually got her way - and then did it again to get this new cross-show contract.

[Primal Slayer]

5 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Too bad the "horrible person blackmailing her way through the show" is your twist. If that happened it would be more a case of an actress defending what she believes she is entitled to because of her contract. Nothing crazy or to be ashamed of.

As if KC hasnt been portrayed as the horrible person who no one the show likes and blah blah blah blah hasnt been the topic many of times, I don't have to twist it any way. 

Edited December 11, 2016 by Primal Slayer

[dtissagirl]

5 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

Yeah, I'm trying to be, um, diplomatic, so I keep my job. :D Even the complaints about working conditions would have to be a breach of hours worked or meal breaks, things like that. If KC did have some crazy special provisions about being the only BC, from what I've seen, agents might call SAG to confirm that a breach had occurred and what the remedy is. For things like that, while I'm not positive, I seriously doubt SAG has any kind of monetary penalty, which is what's assessed when a contract breach is made. For those types of things, the agents would deal with the CW's lawyers.

Thank you for explaining. I'm now thinking the "SAG" part of the rumor is bogus.

But KC's agents/lawyers/whatever going after the CW in S2 does make sense. It would certainly explain the gaps we have in the timeline of BTS events from back then.

[AyChihuahua]

4 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Too bad the "horrible person blackmailing her way through the show" is your twist. If that happened it would be more a case of an actress defending what she believes she is entitled to because of her contract. Nothing crazy or to be ashamed of.

I have so many conflicting thoughts about it, bc I think she was terrible in the role and should never have taken it, bc she should have been honest with herself about her inability to be convincing in action scenes (I completely buy the Kim Manners thing, that he said she was the most uncoordinated person he ever worked with). But the no-chem thing isn't her fault, and while I overall didn't like her portrayal, it's not like she should have known she'd maybe be bad as LL (aside from BC). And getting a big role and then slowly losing it to other actresses had to absolutely suck for her. She wouldn't be human if she didn't dislike  that, so more power to her for sticking up for herself. 

So yeah, lots of conflicting thoughts. I still mostly blame whoever offered her the role in the first place. They should have just sucked it up, shelled out cash damages, and killed LL at the end of S1.

[Midnight Lullaby]

1 minute ago, Primal Slayer said:

As if KC hasnt been portrayed as the horrible person who no one the show likes and blah blah blah blah hasnt been the topic many of times, I don't have to twist it any way. 

You have to twist it that way to compare it to the rumor of SA/EBR having an affair, that makes them look horrible any way you look at it. That's why I told you it's a wrong comparison but if you want to insist it's the same thing have at it.

[statsgirl]

I think if anyone knew the lawyers who would draw up a contract that maximizes her what they promise her, it's Katie Cassidy, third generation Hollywood actress. Also at the time she was the best known of the actors CW wanted, Stephen Amell, Colin Donnell and even Willa Holland didn't have her clout even if Oliver Queen is the title character.  Susanna Thompson and John Barrowman were just old people and don't count.  According to David Rappaport, they were planning a show based on Oliver/Laurel/Tommy following the TVD success.

I don't think the lawyers could argue working conditions because she wasn't doing the 14 hours days SA is but there could be something about giving her the prominence or using her enough.

22 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

Yeah I don't get why BC has to be on arrow but they seem to think she does. Maybe they think Sara is successful as WC and want BC to be a successful character too. I mean they are all about pushing as many masks as possible into the DCTV universe so maybe 2 canaries is better for them lol

A Black Canary  on LoT doesn't matter to the show; I don't think they've mentioned Sara being the White Canary since they set it up.  On the other hand, someone associated with Arrow clearly thinks that it's important to have a Black Canary on the show.  It wouldn't surprise me if DC okayed killing Laurel and then regretted it because it was GA fighting alone. 

The new comics reboot has Diggle but no Felicity.  Is the Black Canary there too?  That could explain if they insist on having a BC on the TV show.  They can't revive Laurel because they absolutely, positively insisted that there was no take-backs on this death ( also Laurel wasn't the Black Canary of their dream) but they want a new black bird to rise again.

[dtissagirl]

This is the hill I'm gonna die in, but it makes much more sense if the movie side is telling the tv side to put BC back onscreen because they plan to have a Black Canary in a movie sometime in the future, than the DC Comics side wanting to align comics and tv shows. If that were true they'd be trying to align all the other shows too.

[calliope1975]

It's all speculation on my part as I haven't worked with the TV contracts in years. I do suspect, based on what I know of Hollywood and typical contracts, that something went down. Going from getting killed off to a multi-show contract is unusual at best. Whether is was from some legal wrangling on KC's part, a desire to use her image on the CW's part, I don't know. I really hope we get that tell all book someday. 

Side note: If anyone is feeling masochistic and wants to read a bunch of boring legalese, all SAG-AFTRA contracts are on the website. Anything outside of those CBA's would be special provisions and negotiated by agents/actors/representatives. 

[AyChihuahua]

4 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

This is the hill I'm gonna die in, but it makes much more sense if the movie side is telling the tv side to put BC back onscreen because they plan to have a Black Canary in a movie sometime in the future, than the DC Comics side wanting to align comics and tv shows. If that were true they'd be trying to align all the other shows too.

I think the writers will see how it goes romantically and ratings-wise, and I definitely think she and the rest of the newbies are a DC requirement generally to raise name recognition in a, they hope, positive fashion, for the movies and merchandise. 

As an aside, this consistent idea I've seen that Guggie has some grand plan makes me absolutely laugh. How many times has he admitted to "seeing how it goes" and dropping threads? They can't track a theme for two episodes in a row now, seeing as how 508 had Oliver re-dedicating himself to the fight and 509 had him back to whining and needing pep talks from a rando. Every epiphany Oliver has is meaningless, and Guggie plans a season of television less than I plan a week of regular work.

Edited December 11, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[dtissagirl]

4 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

I think the writers will see how it goes romantically and ratings-wise, and I definitely think she and the rest of the newbies are a DC requirement generally to raise name recognition in a, they hope, positive fashion, for the movies and merchandise. 

If Warner Pictures ordered them to have a new BC on the show, it doesn't matter if she's a LI or if the ratings are good or anything else at all -- they're gonna have to do it because Pics runs 4050403 laps around TV re: power.

[insomniadreams88]

7 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

As an aside, this consistent idea I've seen that Guggie has some grand plan makes me absolutely laugh. How many times has he admitted to "seeing how it goes" and dropping threads? They can't track a theme for two episodes in a row now, seeing as how 508 had Oliver re-dedicating himself to the fight and 509 had him back to whining and needing pep talks from a rando. Every epiphany Oliver has is meaningless, and Guggie plans a season of television less than I plan a week of regular work.

I can believe that Guggenheim has a plan about how the season ends, maybe even some big plot points he wants to happen at certain times, but I don't think he has any plan about how to get to any of that. 

I expect 510 to see Oliver questioning himself again after the reveal of Black Siren (assuming that's what's going on) and again the team rallying behind him to remind him he's not alone. 

[AyChihuahua]

11 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

If Warner Pictures ordered them to have a new BC on the show, it doesn't matter if she's a LI or if the ratings are good or anything else at all -- they're gonna have to do it because Pics runs 4050403 laps around TV re: power.

Oh, NuBC is for sure happening. I called that appx. 15 seconds after LL's final words leaked, which I can prove on Twitter. 

I meant whether she ends up being Oliver's LI or someone else's. I think they'll see how the chem goes and if it's decent they'll get in some intense gazes and if ratings stay okay (by which I mean don't drop to .4 or something), then it'll happen. Considering how big of a casting search they did, I'm at about 75% that they go Oliver/Tina (really GA/BC).

[LeighAn]

5 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

If Warner Pictures ordered them to have a new BC on the show, it doesn't matter if she's a LI or if the ratings are good or anything else at all -- they're gonna have to do it because Pics runs 4050403 laps around TV re: power.

Yeah DC movies have made in total just under $8 billion dollars. Which is impressive as it all goes to the one studio rather then Marvel properties which are split between 6 studios (Disney/BV, Marvel Films, Fox, Paramount, Universal and Sony) I'm curious how much DCTV earns them but at a guess I'm going with probably $200-400 million. 

[Velocity23]

The actress they got for Tina isnt really something that makes me go "Wow.  They are making her a permanent fixture on the show. " 

Edited December 11, 2016 by Velocity23

[SmallScreenDiva]

1 hour ago, dtissagirl said:

I wonder if it's not something more simple -- like Caity just doesn't wanna touch that ish again. After the shitty way it went the first time.

I'm thinking this. CL had an interview recently where she said something like she was happy to be the White Canary because she's no longer getting haters in her mentions mad at her for the whole BC crap.

[AyChihuahua]

29 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

The actress they got for Tina isnt really something that makes me go "Wow.  They are making her a permanent fixture on the show. " 

I'm guessing you're not a dudebro, so you're not their target audience. I'm not a dudebro either, but I think she's going to look fantastic in tight black leather. 

 

Edited December 11, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[Starfish35]

FYI, Twitter links can be imbedded again since the forum update.  I haven't seen an announcement about it, but that's what a mod said over in the Supergirl forum.

[SmallScreenDiva]

1 hour ago, dtissagirl said:

Thank you for explaining. I'm now thinking the "SAG" part of the rumor is bogus.

But KC's agents/lawyers/whatever going after the CW in S2 does make sense. It would certainly explain the gaps we have in the timeline of BTS events from back then.

The SAG complaint exists. What I don't know is exactly what it says because well, because attorney-client privilege and all.

Edited December 11, 2016 by SmallScreenDiva

[calliope1975]

A "dark, morally questionable place." Are we going the Dark Willow route? That's been posited before, I know. I don't know how I feel about that. 

[dtissagirl]

32 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

Oh, NuBC is for sure happening. I called that appx. 15 seconds after LL's final words leaked, which I can prove on Twitter. 

I meant whether she ends up being Oliver's LI or someone else's. I think they'll see how the chem goes and if it's decent they'll get in some intense gazes and if ratings stay okay (by which I mean don't drop to .4 or something), then it'll happen. Considering how big of a casting search they did, I'm at about 75% that they go Oliver/Tina (really GA/BC).

Yeah, I think it's gonna happen too. The point I was trying to make is folks keep speculating if the GA/BC romance part of it is mandated on Berlanti Prod by the top kahunas at Time Warner. That part I doubt. More likely they told Berlanti to make BC happen again because they want her for the Harley Quinn movie, or some other movie, and that's about it. Making her a love interest is on Berlanti Prod, because they don't know how to write women without her being an LI. See: Lance, Dinah Laurel.

[calliope1975]

Just now, SmallScreenDiva said:

The SAG complaint exists. Can't say much. What I don't know is exactly what it says because well, because attorney-client privilege and all.

Interesting. I'd ask around, but that would reveal a bit too much about myself to my colleagues. 

[statsgirl]

Given that there is a Wonder Woman movie coming out, if that does well I can see that there might be interest in a Birds of Prey movie.  (I just can't see WW doing well unless they get Zach out of there.)

[AyChihuahua]

2 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

Yeah, I think it's gonna happen too. The point I was trying to make is folks keep speculating if the GA/BC romance part of it is mandated on Berlanti Prod by the top kahunas at Time Warner. That part I doubt. More likely they told Berlanti to make BC happen again because they want her for the Harley Quinn movie, or some other movie, and that's about it. Making her a love interest is on Berlanti Prod, because they don't know how to write women without her being an LI. See: Lance, Dinah Laurel.

Agreed, and really, see very nearly every woman ever on a Berlanti production. You just don't hire someone who looks like that (I think she's lovely although I won't be watching) and not have her hook up with somebody.

[dtissagirl]

36 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Yeah DC movies have made in total just under $8 billion dollars. Which is impressive as it all goes to the one studio rather then Marvel properties which are split between 6 studios (Disney/BV, Marvel Films, Fox, Paramount, Universal and Sony) I'm curious how much DCTV earns them but at a guess I'm going with probably $200-400 million. 

DCTV has made them about 1 billion so far. But even without comparing $$$, there's the thing about Hollywood being a caste system in which movies are atop everything else.

[bijoux]

From the TVLine article:

Quote

 Felicity “is going to meet some people who are both a bit tied to her past but also very much tied to this new future she’s contemplating,” Mericle teases, “and that’s going to draw her away from the team and lead her to do some things that are pretty morally questionable.”

Sounds like Noah to me.

[calliope1975]

I'm so excited Felicity will be away from the team! Sorry, my bitter is coming through. On the positive end - maybe this will be the Felicity and Friends I've been hoping for all along. 

[way2interested]

Not really liking the idea of "draw away from the team," but it could be interesting, I guess. Doesn't really sound like Smoak Tech or anything like that.

[Chaser]

It sounds like we are going to see Felicity be a little more 'Smoak'. 

I think this could relate to what MG said about Felicitys storyline 'not necessarily' being about her Father. Noah is an amoral Hacker for Hire. 

As long as they don't go legit evil, I think having Felicity test the waters could be interesting.

[AyChihuahua]

How shocking that Felicity is being drawn away from the team right as Tina is being drawn to it. How not at all convenient.

[Velocity23]

Really so Felicity finally getting a storyline is all about Tina now? 

[dtissagirl]

"Draw away from the team" hahahalol forever. It's uncanny how everything that sounds wrong and dumb, they do it.

[AyChihuahua]

1 minute ago, Velocity23 said:

Really so Felicity finally getting a storyline is all about Tina now? 

Again, maybe dial back the snark? Just a few weeks ago people were being snarked at for saying she'd be NuBC. Before that, snarked at for saying Oliver would hook up in some fashion with the reporter. Before that, snarked at for saying Felicity would have a boyfriend.

Heck, one week ago people were snarked at for saying the obvious cliffie would be LL showing up. Yet the ones predicting the bad things keep being proven right, rather than the ones snarking at them.

Edited December 11, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[Chaser]

1 minute ago, way2interested said:

Not really liking the idea of "draw away from the team," but it could be interesting, I guess. Doesn't really sound like Smoak Tech or anything like that.

She's going after Prometheus so I wonder just how far away from the Team she can go.

I really like the thought of her interacting with other/new players.

[Velocity23]

oh right oliver is gonna have a threesome with reporter and Tina. 

[Mrs. de Winter]

9 minutes ago, bijoux said:

“and that’s going to draw her away from the team and lead her to do some things that are pretty morally questionable.”

Translated:  this story line - like all Felicity story lines will last five minutes and is being done to give the newbies (one in particular) more screen time because the only team members that matter wear masks.

[SmallScreenDiva]

2 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

Really so Felicity finally getting a storyline is all about Tina now? 

I'd be more than excited for Felicity's story line if it doesn't make it seem like she's being "drawn away from the team" just as another female is being introduced into it. 

[sara1121]

Prediction. Felicity drawing away from the team=absolutely no one on the team even notices. And she'll do something something "evil" will be roundly condemned by everyone on the team and ostracised. No team hugs for Felicity if she dares to set a foot wrong. Manpain only must be forgiven. I'm really starting to think they are going to write EBR out at the end of the season.

Edited December 11, 2016 by sara1121

[insomniadreams88]

I'm not surprised she's going to be drawn away from the team, but I hope that someone is there to try to keep her from going too far from them. I don't want to see the team letting her do these things on her own. Let someone be there for her. Don't wait until it's too late. 

[apinknightmare]

Is Curtis gonna hang up his T to do comms and such during this drawing away period or is Felicity just gonna become a dark overlord during the day since she doesn't have a job still?

[Midnight Lullaby]

Finally something about Felicity! Since after the last episode I can't really say I long to see scenes between Felicity and her team mates (that didn't even think about checking on her after Oliver killed her boyfriend) I'm good with her having a story removed from them..even if it sounds like an excuse to make others shine while she is doing something else. I hope they bring back her dad and it is more substantial than what they gave her in the past. I'd be down with dark Felicity.

[tangerine95]

I'm not sure being drawn away from the team means physically. I think they mean emotionally or just has a side mission she doesn't tell them about. In all the team bts we got so far EBR is there so I don't think she leaves. 

This sounds interesting and i wanted a storyline like this for Felicity so i hope they do it justice for once. 

[Chaser]

2 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

I'd be more than excited for Felicity's story line if it doesn't make it seem like she's being "drawn away from the team" just as another female is being introduced into it. 

Hey, that part sounds sucky.

It could be in an emotional sense. She goes undercover in the hacker underground but keeps it a secret from the Team.

[HighHopes]

I do like how these writers are not acknloweding that everyone on Team Arrow does "morally questionable" things every episode and have since season one. Hell, Oliver just killed an innocent man (by accident yes, but killing still = morally questionable IMO). 

I'm worried for the amount of hate that will be directed at Felicity now. It's already pretty bad out there, it's going to be like the Havenrock reactions times a hundred I think. 

It does sound like there will be less Felicity in 5B even though she appears to be getting her own storyline. "Away from the team" to me means less lair scenes, which are already 1/3 of the non-flashback scenes. The other 2/3 are the stunts and the emotional/personal scenes. Add that from what the Paps seem to say and EBR's social media it looks like she isn't filming much. (One of her LA friends is visiting her this weekend too). Then we have her not being invited to the Winter Interview Tour recently and I don't know-- this all just seems to be very similar to what happened with Laurel/KC last season. 

Edited December 11, 2016 by HighHopes

[way2interested]

Just now, Velocity23 said:

Really so Felicity finally getting a storyline is all about Tina now? 

I think it would be more about clearing the way so Tina would have a more amicable/easy entrance be it on the team or with the chance that she becomes Oliver's next LI. Like, ngl, even a part of me reading this is thinking that they're only doing it so they can say, "See, Felicity has a 'plot' now, so you have to like Tina now because we're giving you want you want!" but I still think that whatever it is would still be about her whether it's substantial or not.

Just now, Chaser said:

She's going after Prometheus so I wonder just how far away from the Team she can go.

I really like the thought of her interacting with other/new players.

Yeah, that aspect I like, if she happens to go darker towards trying to get rid of the big bad against what Oliver or Diggle may advise/want/know (which I hope is what they mean by, "draw away from the team," metaphorically through disagreement, not isolating from plot or main characters, but ehhhh, we'll see), but this is still all too vague for me to get too excited/too upset over.

[Velocity23]

She seems to be in the lair in 5x13. So not sure how that means getting away. She films the amount she always had.  3-4 days per episode. 

[calliope1975]

If we get more Goth Felicity, I might be forgiving.