NFL Thread

[Moose135]

So, is NBC saying football fans are a bunch of whining, cry babies when there's no football on?

 

[hendersonrocks]

Amen to every word of this: Surprise military reunions at NFL games reach peak bullshit. Especially the last paragraph. 

[jcin617]

Judge rules Goodell can suck it.   I... may be paraphrasing just a bit.

[xaxat]

Goodell can't help getting his ass kicked in court.

[merylinkid]

 

So, is NBC saying football fans are a bunch of whining, cry babies when there's no football on?

Well I for one am.   Which I why I will even suffer through 3 stringers playing in preseason.   It's FOOTBALL. of a sort.

 

 

 

Judge rules Goodell can suck it.   I... may be paraphrasing just a bit.

 

 

Pretty much.    And the NFl thought it was being so smart filing in NYC to get away from Judgy Doty in Minnesota.   Bwahahahahahahahaha.   There was no real evidence that Brady was involved.   Hell, there was no real evidence the balls were even intentionally deflated.   Some of the Colts balls were under pressure too.   Did Brady have his equipment guy deflate those balls too?    Just too much wrong.   The NFL has no idea how to conduct an investigation, from Ray Rice not getting the video to assuming the balls were intentionally deflated and only using the evidence that supported it.   

 

I have to believe that Jimmy Garrapolo is heaving a huge sigh of relief.   No pressure on him now to win big.

 

Fromt he Ruling:   "It is the 'law of the shop' to provide [NFL] players with advance notice of prohibited conduct and potential discipline

 

This is technical legal stuff that will have lawyers (like me) salivating.    Basically it means if this is usual way of handling discipline you have to get doing it that way, unless a new CBA said otherwise.    So because Brady didn't get advance notice that he could be discplined for destroying his phone and not just for deflating balls, he can't be suspended.   Interesting ....

Edited September 3, 2015 by merylinkid

[xaxat]

Amen to every word of this: Surprise military reunions at NFL games reach peak bullshit. Especially the last paragraph. 

 

ETA, I agree with the NFL part, but don't like how the author diminishes the guy's service.  Just because a member of our military is stationed in South Korea (or Germany, or Okinawa, all places my uncle served) doesn't mean that the family isn't experience a hardship during deployment.

[ganesh]

So, basically, the judge ruled that you can't make up rules to punish someone for something they did after they did it, if there wasn't a rule against that in the first place? Essentially, due process, and no, you can't wildly issue punishments violating the common law of the USA. Is that right? So, regardless if there's the CBA in place giving Goodell all this authority to issue these penalties, he still has to follow the law.

 

That's overall what many were saying here, no?

 

What a waste of time and resources. 

[Fukui San]

Goodell can't help getting his ass kicked in court.

 

Judges uphold arbitration decisions 95% of the time, but Goodell's NFL is 0-5 in court and/or in front of truly neutral arbitrators.  The NFL front office is WORSE than the Exxons and Walmarts of the world, legally.

So, basically, the judge ruled that you can't make up rules to punish someone for something they did after they did it, if there wasn't a rule against that in the first place? Essentially, due process, and no, you can't wildly issue punishments violating the common law of the USA. Is that right? So, regardless if there's the CBA in place giving Goodell all this authority to issue these penalties, he still has to follow the law.

 

That's overall what many were saying here, no?

 

What a waste of time and resources. 

Those of us who were paying attention beyond the OMG THE PATS R CHEATERSZ LOL!!!! part.

 

Anyone who is surprised and/or outraged by this has to read up on what actually has happened. I've never seen such abuse of power and arbitrary, senseless application of personal biases in the name of law and order since the old TWoP forum moderators were disbanded.</rimshot>

[xaxat]

The happiest person right now? The Washington GM.

Edited September 3, 2015 by xaxat

[King of Birds]

So, basically <snip> What a waste of time and resources. 

But... all the sports TV and radio people got almost a YEARS worth of shit to talk about! Are you trying to say that they just WASTE TIME on ESPN and all over about something where they had the information wrong but kept yelling and discussing utter and complete bullshit? ON TV?

 

PS I do look forward to some clever reporter, when faced with retracting bad information that he's already reported, to admit he's been Mortensen-ed.

 

 

eta: Nope, looks like more time and resources will be wasted.  "The commissioner's responsibility to secure the competitive fairness of our game is a paramount principle"

Edited September 3, 2015 by King of Birds

[stealinghome]

Sadly, I'm not surprised Goodell & co are appealing. They staked everything on this case and today's ruling is a MAJOR loss of face for them, especially as the whole situation has escalated into a question of the integrity of the league office. They can't let it go without a fight. A loss is rather disastrous.

That said, I wish the other owners would get over their jealousy of the Pats and tell Goodell to knock it off. He's completely mishandled this situation from the start and drawing this out will only tarnish the NFL regardless of subsequent rulings.

Edited September 3, 2015 by stealinghome

[benteen]

Goodell is such an ass clown.  How the owners still allow him to handle player discipline is beyond me.  I don't want to hear that Goodell makes the NFL a lot of money.  A trained dog could run the NFL...that league made $9 billion during a recession.

 

I still think Brady and the jock-sniffing equipment guys tampered with the footballs but I think the NFL should just give up on this.  But they seem intent on continuing to bounce their head off the wall by appealing.  They'll only lose ANOTHER court case.

[Bastet]

So, is NBC saying football fans are a bunch of whining, cry babies when there's no football on?

 

Well, I certainly am.

[Fukui San]

Goodell is such an ass clown.  How the owners still allow him to handle player discipline is beyond me.  I don't want to hear that Goodell makes the NFL a lot of money.  A trained dog could run the NFL...that league made $9 billion during a recession.

 

I still think Brady and the jock-sniffing equipment guys tampered with the footballs but I think the NFL should just give up on this.  But they seem intent on continuing to bounce their head off the wall by appealing.  They'll only lose ANOTHER court case.

Well, if that is actually true, then the Pats should get the same penalty that the Jets did when they tampered with footballs in 2009, or that San Diego got when they tampered with footballs in 2012. 

 

What?  You mean they got a piddling fine, some low level employees may have gotten let go, and everyone went on with their lives?  How strange!

[Ohwell]

Somebody get Ryan Clark off my TV.  He comes of as such a smug knowitall.  I cannot stand him.  I just want to kick him.

[ganesh]

I don't understand how the owners aren't concerned that Goodell could do the same thing to their star players too. I mean, it could have just as easily been Rodgers or Flacco; they play in similar weather. Or pick any SB MVP. It's not like the Pats are the only team that cheats. 

 

When, Kraft was like, 'ok we'll pay the fine, and take the hit on the draft picks,' everyone assumed (as in, the actual sports journalists reported) that the owners all thought this was the end of the issue. 

[bosawks]

All I got from this is that Pete Rozelle's desiccated corpse would be a much better commissioner than Goodell.

[merylinkid]

There were hints over the summer that while the owners still backed Goodell, an adverse ruling could change that.    Goodell is trying to prove he was right not only to save the front office but to save his job.    He needs to resign "for the good of the shield" now.    

 

He has attorneys to advise him.   WHY, WHY, WHY aren't they telling him this is a stupid idea.   Or are they telling him that and he is just "Damn the torpedoes fulls speed ahead?"   It's not even about soft balls anymore, it's about Roger being right.

 

And the NFLPA needs to STFU.    Sure they won in court.   But every. single. time. a judge hands the union a victory, they go bargain it away in the next CBA for more money.    This goes all the way back to the origins of the union.   There could have been true free agency in 1975 instead of 1994 but for the union bargaining away the court victory.

[xaxat]

The worst part about this is that it apparently gave the loathsome Greg Hardy hope that he can appeal for another reduction on his suspension.

[Fukui San]

Mark my words, if Roger Goodell is still commissioner by this time next year, we will have at least three more "scandals" of at least the Ray Rice level, one of which will probably involve the Patriots as we've seen the NFL office is willing to make a literal federal case out of imaginary infractions. This is because unlike every other major sports league the league office seeks to amplify scandals instead of minimize scandals. 

[mojoween]

I actually don't care one way or the other about Roger Goodell but I find it ludicrous that he has already announced that he's not attending the opener. Why would he do that and give the media eight days to salivate over the decision?

And media, the judges decision has been rendered. I'll give you today but after that PLEASE move on.

Edited September 4, 2015 by mojoween

[benteen]

I don't understand how the owners aren't concerned that Goodell could do the same thing to their star players too. I mean, it could have just as easily been Rodgers or Flacco; they play in similar weather. Or pick any SB MVP. It's not like the Pats are the only team that cheats. 

 

When, Kraft was like, 'ok we'll pay the fine, and take the hit on the draft picks,' everyone assumed (as in, the actual sports journalists reported) that the owners all thought this was the end of the issue. 

 

I agree.  It's surprisingly short-sighted by the owners.

 

They like Goodell because he makes them money but again, any idiot could run the NFL.  It's a license to print money.

[xaxat]

Ego. Owners all think the same way the rookies do at orientation when they get the "Take care of your money or you will leave the league broke!" speech.

 

"That's not going to happen to me/my organization."

 

 

"If it was J.J. Watt, I think he would have been cooperative, and it wouldn't be a question. ... I don't think J.J. would destroy his cellphone."

 

Bob McNair, owner of the Texans.

[ganesh]

J.J. Watt is as much of a brand as he is a premiere player in this league. Any one at that elite level is patently a moron to willingly hand over their phone without being subpeonaed. 

 

And give me a break, there's no doubt all the other NFL owners were like, "Bob, just pay the fine and give up the draft picks and let it go. It's done." No one, no one expected this Brady situation. 

 

You know Rodgers or Russell were sitting at home with their wives like, "Honey, don't say anything, but no way I'd go down without a fight either. If Brady doesn't walk, we're all screwed."

Edited September 4, 2015 by ganesh

[Moose135]

Best reaction I've seen to the Brady decision was this tweet from our old friend, Lawrence Tynes, NY Giants placekicker the two times they beat the Pats in the SB:

 

 

If the @nfl wanted to win this case against Brady they should have brought the @Giants to help them

 

[ganesh]

BURN

[benteen]

Best reaction I've seen to the Brady decision was this tweet from our old friend, Lawrence Tynes, NY Giants placekicker the two times they beat the Pats in the SB:

 

Giants fan here so I fucking loved that!

 

I totally agree that any star player who would have willingly handled over his cell phone to the NFL would be an idiot.  There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that if Brady would have given the NFL his phone, the contents on it would have been leaked to the press.  That absolutely would have happened.  Hell, I think a few of his texts were leaked a couple of weeks ago.  Some NFL employee looking to make seven figures would sell to Gawker or whatever.  If you're an NFL player, you don't give up your cell phone without a subpeona from law enforcement.

[merylinkid]

Except the NFL offered a compromise where Brady and his lawyer could go through the phone and turn over any texts they thought were relevant.

 

I think they should have done that and then when it was twisted in the Wells Report to make him look guilty use that against the NFL.   INstead, Brady is trying to defend himself from not cooperating.    It is so much easier to win when you don't start out behind.   

[xaxat]

merylinkid, you mentioned that you are a lawyer, so perhaps you can help answer this question. Why did all of the TV legal analysts get this wrong?

[ganesh]

Isn't there a footnote in the report that Brady offered to show the phone and they said no, then Brady said they were getting rid of the phone, and the league was like, 'ok'. *Then* they spun it like he destroyed his phone instead of cooperate. I remember reading a bunch of articles when that story broke. 

 

Cooperating is subjective I suppose. Subpeona the phone records for the relevant numbers and get a court order for Brady to turn over those texts. Or to the numbers he texted. If he complies, then he's cooperating. If not, then he's in contempt of court. This is basic due process isn't it? The burden of proof isn't on the accused. That's the whole core of the ruling. 

 

It always sounded like the 'investigation' was basically, well, he's not helping so he did it. 

 

I'm a nobody and my phone has about 200 pictures of my dog. I'm not giving the phone up either for nothing. Take me to court and I'll comply. You don't suddenly give up your legal protections because people think you should. 

[mojoween]

Smug Brady can suck it, just because. I'm in a foul mood because Steve Weatherford got cut. I LOVE that guy.

[Fukui San]

merylinkid, you mentioned that you are a lawyer, so perhaps you can help answer this question. Why did all of the TV legal analysts get this wrong?

 

Easy.  They're paid by TV networks dependent on the NFL for $$$.  They'll still be paid tomorrow by networks dependent on the NFL for $$$.  If you give me a six figure annual salary, I'll probably go on TV and declare the Pats cheaters.

 

Meanwhile nonpartial observer lawyers like Stephanie Stradley has been banging her head against the wall in frustration at the NFL's stupidity since before Bountygate. 

[xaxat]

Easy.  They're paid by TV networks dependent on the NFL for $$$.  They'll still be paid tomorrow by networks dependent on the NFL for $$$.  If you give me a six figure annual salary, I'll probably go on TV and declare the Pats cheaters.

 

Institutional myopia may have played a role, but all of the football people analysts/talking heads/ex players thought the league was going to lose.

 

Meanwhile nonpartial observer lawyers like Stephanie Stradley has been banging her head against the wall in frustration at the NFL's stupidity since before Bountygate.

 

Even she hedged her bet.

 

So, who will win in any Deflategate legal action?

The definite answer is the lawyers.

Once things go to the court system, the parties lose a lot of control. Control over timing. Control over outcome.

Judges are not robots, and from court to court, case to case, they can rule differently.

I don’t think that this was a neutral and fair process based on the information that has been provided publicly. But I also know that courts are reluctant to overturn these types of decisions.

Edited September 4, 2015 by xaxat

[Fukui San]

 

Institutional myopia may have played a role, but all of the football people analysts/talking heads/ex players thought the league was going to lose.

 

 

Even she hedged her bet.

 

I don't mind "You never know which way a judge will go" or "The legal obstacles are these" as that's a reasonable stance but ESPN's guy Lester Munson was all-in on the "The league will win easily" angle and is still on the "The league will get this overturned easily" angle.  He's clearly a shill doing the league's business. 

[merylinkid]

 

merylinkid, you mentioned that you are a lawyer, so perhaps you can help answer this question. Why did all of the TV legal analysts get this wrong?

 

Not all of the tv analysts got it wrong.   Mike Florio of PFT is on NBC Sports and he said "anyone who knows exactly how Judge Berman is going to rule is an idiot."   FYI, Florio is a lawyer by training.    

 

Lawyers, not analysts who have some legal knowledge, know that once you get to a judge, you have absolutely no control over the outcome.   You can make an educated guess (cough, Rowan County Clerk cough) but you really don't know what is going to happen.   It's why Judge Berman was trying to get the parties to settle.   An outcome you control is always better than one you don't.   But the NFL was stuck on "Brady was a bad, bad, boy and he must admit it or the millions we spent on Ted Wells' Report was a joke."   And Brady was stuck on "I did nothing wrong and I will never say I did."    They both lost.   NFL got told it exceeded its authority in punishing Brady without notice.   But, it also accepted as true the arbitrer's findings of facts.   Which means Brady didn't cooperate.  

[DrSpaceman]

Well I for one am.   Which I why I will even suffer through 3 stringers playing in preseason.   It's FOOTBALL. of a sort.

 

 

Pretty much.    And the NFl thought it was being so smart filing in NYC to get away from Judgy Doty in Minnesota.   Bwahahahahahahahaha.   There was no real evidence that Brady was involved.   Hell, there was no real evidence the balls were even intentionally deflated.   Some of the Colts balls were under pressure too.   Did Brady have his equipment guy deflate those balls too?    Just too much wrong.   The NFL has no idea how to conduct an investigation, from Ray Rice not getting the video to assuming the balls were intentionally deflated and only using the evidence that supported it.   

 

I have to believe that Jimmy Garrapolo is heaving a huge sigh of relief.   No pressure on him now to win big.

 

Fromt he Ruling:   "It is the 'law of the shop' to provide [NFL] players with advance notice of prohibited conduct and potential discipline

 

This is technical legal stuff that will have lawyers (like me) salivating.    Basically it means if this is usual way of handling discipline you have to get doing it that way, unless a new CBA said otherwise.    So because Brady didn't get advance notice that he could be discplined for destroying his phone and not just for deflating balls, he can't be suspended.   Interesting ....

I read the ruling and it doesn't seem to be based on anything to do with the investigation itself.

The primary reason seemed to be that you can't argue deflating balls is like using performance enhancing drugs and thus, Brady had no advance notice of a possible four game suspension for this.

I actually think its bullshit to argue Brady did not know he could be suspended in some way or for some number of games for this, but I will concede that deflating balls and connecting that to performance enhancing drugs is pretty shaky reasoning, so at least the logic behind that argument holds some merit and is valid. The NFL needed to be more clear on how they came to the 4 game number in the ruling.

I have maintained even before this that the procedure for discipline has to change and it can't go on like this. You can't be arguing for months about these sort of suspensions and dragging them on, whether the NFL wins the rulings or not. But I still don't blame all that on Goodell. I am tired of the bitching and moaning from the NFLPA and the players about this and I tire of the court cases about this. Instead of whining and moaning about Goodell and subjecting the players and the fans to these court cases, just change the system, no matter how this Brady situation ultimately turns out. I blame all of them for this, the players, the NFLPA and Goodell. Its been a problem for years, they aruge back and forth like children and never change anything. Its blatantly obvious there are serious flaws in the system that has nothing to do with this whole fiasco, Just change it and have everyone stop whining about it.

Whether he is ultimately suspended or not, I will still never be convinced the Pats didn't deflate the balls and Brady didn't know about it.

The case is not over, will be appealed, even if the appeal is upheld they could always rehear the case with an arbitrator or throw out this ruling and make another once all these court cases are over.

I also still maintain most of this case though has little or nothing to do with Goodell and it is largely based on the desires of the other owners. Whether its true or not, the perception among the league is the Pats cheat in many ways and get away with it. I don't care to argue back and forth about if they do or not or more evidence of any -gate, but that is the perception and I think many of the other 31 owners are sick of it and essentially told Goodell, send a messgae for them to stop.

Also I am still pissed at my own team, the Colts, for playing like such little weaklings (not my first choice of words) in that title game. Played like they were just happy to be there, and that is what the game reflected. If that keeps happening this year then Pagano needs to be fired. I am by far more concerned about what they do to get better in the future and fix that rather than if Brady gets suspended for this ongoing, neverending saga.

Anyway I am glad just one more week to real football and something new to discuss.

[bosawks]

I just don't see MLB suspending Mike Trout 25% of the season for using a corked bat or the NHL Crosby for having his stick blade curved greater than 3/4".

I honestly have no idea what the NFL is doing.

[Constantinople]

I have maintained even before this that the procedure for discipline has to change and it can't go on like this. You can't be arguing for months about these sort of suspensions and dragging them on, whether the NFL wins the rulings or not. But I still don't blame all that on Goodell. I am tired of the bitching and moaning from the NFLPA and the players about this and I tire of the court cases about this. Instead of whining and moaning about Goodell and subjecting the players and the fans to these court cases, just change the system, no matter how this Brady situation ultimately turns out. I blame all of them for this, the players, the NFLPA and Goodell. Its been a problem for years, they aruge back and forth like children and never change anything. Its blatantly obvious there are serious flaws in the system that has nothing to do with this whole fiasco, Just change it and have everyone stop whining about it.

There's nothing preventing Goodell from disciplining players in a fair, impartial and coherent manner and there's nothing preventing Goodell from not making things up as he goes along. The NFLPA may bitch, but there'd be less room for complaints and his decisions would become bullet proof. It's telling that whenver someone truly independent reviews Goodell's decisions, they're not merely overturned, but Goodell comes off as a total moron. It's ironic that Goodell is appealing for "the integrity of the game" and "to secure competitive fairness" when the entire rationale for the judge's decision was that Goodell acted unfairly and cited examples demonstrating that Goodell doesn't understand the meaning of the word integrity. But it's unlikely he understands the meaning of the word irony either.

It's surprising that someone so fundamentally stupid is paid so much. It makes me question the existence of Adam Smith's invisible hand. But I guess that's what the owners want.

But cheer up. Given that the Patriots failed to re-sign either of their starting corners, the chances of them winning the Super Bowl again are about zero.

[stealinghome]

I read today that Goodell's buyout is something like $150 million. While that's not large *relative to the overall income the NFL generates,* I like to think that's the prime reason he still has a job. Cause that is still a shit ton of money.

The ruling has nothing to do with the Wells Report itself, but reading between the lines the judge made it pretty clear he thinks the Wells Report is bs. He put quotation marks around "independent" like six times.

[DrSpaceman]

There's nothing preventing Goodell from disciplining players in a fair, impartial and coherent manner and there's nothing preventing Goodell from not making things up as he goes along. The NFLPA may bitch, but there'd be less room for complaints and his decisions would become bullet proof. It's telling that whenver someone truly independent reviews Goodell's decisions, they're not merely overturned, but Goodell comes off as a total moron. It's ironic that Goodell is appealing for "the integrity of the game" and "to secure competitive fairness" when the entire rationale for the judge's decision was that Goodell acted unfairly and cited examples demonstrating that Goodell doesn't understand the meaning of the word integrity. But it's unlikely he understands the meaning of the word irony either.It's surprising that someone so fundamentally stupid is paid so much. It makes me question the existence of Adam Smith's invisible hand. But I guess that's what the owners want.But cheer up. Given that the Patriots failed to re-sign either of their starting corners, the chances of them winning the Super Bowl again are about zero.

As is often the case, I suspect by the end of the season Brady and the suspension/nonsuspension will have nothing to do with the success of the pats. I agree them losing the two corners will hurt them more than anything.

If its not the Pats though, it will be some other team with a better defense and better OL in the playoffs that beats the Colts unless they improve a whole lot in the upcoming season.

[mojoween]

Tebow was released. And when I clicked on the NFL Network Facebook post the first comment I saw was "they'll regret this in week five when Bradford is dead" which made me snort.

[Magog]

I can't imagine how Skip Bayless feels right now that his boy Tim Tebow has been cut by another team (Eagles). 

 

I just wish that Tebow was with the Cowboys. Its great to see Tony Romo fail in big games & not lead the Cowboys to the Super Bowl. It would be even better if Tim Tebow was a part of that. Hopefully, Jerry Jones can somehow make it happen.

 

I can't wait to see this week which idiot would be stupid enough to pick the Dallas Cowboys to win the Super Bowl this season. There is always somebody picking the Cowboys to go all the way.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Magog

[BitterApple]

How come Tebow can't make it in the league? You've got garbage QB's like Griffin and Geno Smith still on the rosters so how come no one will give Tim a shot?

[Rick Kitchen]

How come Tebow can't make it in the league? You've got garbage QB's like Griffin and Geno Smith still on the rosters so how come no one will give Tim a shot?

 

Too much baggage.

[DrSpaceman]

I thought Tebow was going to make the cut.

But I am glad he didn't. Beyond sick of hearing about him.

Reggie Wayne released by the Pats. And it seems he asked for his release. Very odd

My guess is Reggie figured out the years on his body finally caught up and he is not up to par for playing in the league, time to step aside and let somebody else have a shot at the roster.

35 is the magic number for WRs. Over that and they decline quickly, unless you are named Jerry Rice.

[Fukui San]

The Patriots offense is also notoriously tricky for WRs to master. Wayne wouldn't be the first decorated vet WR not to get the offense. Ochocinco and Galloway are the biggest examples of that.

[merylinkid]

I am so glad Tebow got cut.    What other third string quarterback is ESPN asking if he should still be in the League?   Not a one.   

 

That's why no one wants Tebow, the circus comes with him.   And he is just not good enough to overcome the mess that creates.

[ganesh]

No one wants him because he isn't that good. If he actually could play, GMs wouldn't care about baggage. I don't know why Tebow gets handled with kid gloves so much. "He can't play. We cut him. We need that roster spot for a gunner. For a long snapper." Done.

[stealinghome]

How come Tebow can't make it in the league? You've got garbage QB's like Griffin and Geno Smith still on the rosters so how come no one will give Tim a shot?

If he didn't have so much baggage, I think he'd probably stick somewhere as a third-string QB. But no third-string QB is worth the media circus and intense scrutiny Tebow brings with him, nor the incessant whining from his diehard fans.

 

If Tebow really wants to play in the NFL, he needs to just suck it up and move to running back or tight end. There's no guarantee he'd stick, but he'd have a much better shot than he does now. It should be abundantly clear to him no one wants him as a QB.

[Fukui San]

Tebow was released. And when I clicked on the NFL Network Facebook post the first comment I saw was "they'll regret this in week five when Bradford is dead" which made me snort.

Well, if Tebow died he'd just be back in three days anyway.