S14.E05: Gunn And Heid

[JasmineFlower]

In terms of not holding the guys accountable, but having a problem with the Mean Girls - Here's the thing. I had little problem with the actual choosing besides people needing to not be idiotic and remember this is a competition. Everyone seemed to select their friends, guys included, I think that's why Merline was selected before Ashley, because Edmond is closer to Merline than to Ashley. Edmond was chosen late for the men as well. I mean he was taken after Joseph and Jake.

 

I agree with a poster above who said Ashley was more angry with being selected last among people she thought were her friends (the girls) AND she's a two-time winner. Those are combined reasons for her not to be chosen last. There's no reason that both Amanda and Lindsey to have been selected before Ashley among the women since Amanda has been in the bottom constantly and Lindsey has her designs criticized more than the others. And also, remember Ashley already worked well in a team challenge with Candice. And still she was left last. I didn't think it was some childhood trauma that made her initially upset though I think possible past rejection made the whole experience of the challenge worse for her. I think she had proved her worth with this particular group and was surprised that not only did they not think much of her, they were ready to scapegoat her without a second thought.

 

Now the men's group with Merline. They selected their friends as well. The difference here was that once they became a group, they were a group. There was no Joseph "taming" Merline this time around or any of that BS he was trying to pull last time. No petty scissor bullshit on this team. The men's team became a group and they were collaborative and supportive. It was nice to see. It was polar opposite to the all girls team.

 

So, I'm not crucifying the men's team for not choosing Ashley. I wasn't crucifying the women's team for not choosing Ashley, though it was unfortunate that even Amanda the bottom dweller got picked before her. It was the treatment after, during the challenge that was objectionable to me. That's when they were in full Mean Girls mode and the selection process, in retrospect, seemed to be another example of their behavior, rather than some initial outlier. So, for me, it's not sexist to single out the women's team for their behavior, as the selection process was not the behavior I found most concerning in the long run.

 

Even if the producers are showing us the storyline they wish us to see, they can only work with the footage they've got. The shit coming out of Candice's mouth was terrible. When she was mocking things that Ashley said and questions she asked that were perfectly reasonable in trying to get the team to think of a collection. Candice acting like Ashley was incompetent and needing to do her work for her and acting like an uber bitch who couldn't be bothered. Producers may be setting up an me vs. them, but Candice is happily providing the content to support it. Full on Gretchen flashback with this chick. I don't hate Candice like I hated Gretchen, but the season is young. Gretchen wasn't top 3 worst contestants ever by this point of the season either.

[gingerormaryann]

 

I'm still not seeing it. Maybe it's because this is exactly the kind of garbage Lifetime likes to push while purporting to be female-friendly programming. The evidence is thin. Laurie hearing "something" that was conveniently not filmed. Blake calling them mean girls. Ashley crying. Three people choosing her admittedly terrible pleated thing as the worst outfit. Talking heads that were probably filmed after all of this had gone down.

 

Everyone will create their own scenarios about what happened, based on their own biases.  But what can't be denied is that the female team was a disaster in all ways but had they sent down a fantastic collection, all would have been forgiven.  As such, they were compared to the mens team + Merline (who struggled with Joseph in another challenge but apparently worked swimmingly well with him here) who collaborated on all designs and were quick to give props to everyone.  The women were disjointed, lacked leadership and direction, turned against each other and when the time came, Candice flat out lied when asked about inspiration.   Whether or not anything happened in the workroom, it definitely showed in their work, and that's the realest thing to judge.

[justawatcher]

I am revising my cannon fodder order. I had Amanda, Blake, Jake, and Lindsey as the next four to go, then followed by Merline, Kelly, Joseph, and Laurie in some order. Now I am going to change that and say the next two people to go will be Merline and either Lindsey or Kelly, for two reasons: 1st- Blake and Jake bought themselves some time by doing well on the challenge and Blake defending Ashley. 2nd- there are 6 women left and they have to get rid of two of them to combine dorm rooms and get Candace and Ashley in the same one. Which means Merline is doomed. And then either Laurie if they want to go full on mean girl 3 against 1 or Lindsey or Kelly if they want to go tag team Laurie/Ashley and Candace/one who doesn't go.

[JasmineFlower]

Yes -- here she is on PR, likely thinking  "My talent is my calling card now & I've done really well so far -- I won't be rejected for my size here" only to find out her wins and talent meant fuck all (for whatever reason) in the pick process.

 

Right. And also remember that it's not just her thinking about her dress size. Since she struggled with school because of her dyslexia, she said fashion made her realize she has a special talent that she basically could be successful with that wasn't hampered by her learning disability. So, when she's doing well with the competitions and seemingly being accepted by her colleagues and it's everything she basically thought it would be, she wasn't really thinking high school BS was going to enter. I think she thought competition would be healthy, but I'm guessing she thought it would be respectful. Not saying she wasn't naive, but her being hurt by what happened makes a bit more sense, because she's seeking a different validation here.

[becauseIsaidso]

That was Merline, the one who kept calling muslin "Muslim".    I am part Polish.. I am not aware that the term Polack (i.e."Pole-lock.") is a slur.--I don't THINK it is.   I think it's like saying "Manhattanite or an "Aussie". and Polack instead of "Polander" or "Pol".     

 

Polack may have gotten a bad ring when it was said as "dumb Polack".  I believe this arose out of jealousy because we are so darned good-lookin' !!

I am of 100% Polish ethnicity, 2nd generation American citizenship (my parents were born in the US, my grandparents were not). My grandparents were often called dumb Polacks, which (in spite of their level of education) was in large part due to the language barrier, both in not understanding (with the attendant ridicule) and in not being understood (ditto). At least one side also suffered the indignity of having their surnames 'Americanized" to make both the spelling and pronunciation easier for their new countrymen. Even though I was born 50 years after my grandparents came to the US, I was still subjected to the 'dumb Polack' taunt throughout my childhood and teenage years. It IS a slur. Since I have an IQ in the 99.6th percentile, I know that I am certainly not 'dumb'. But it still stings.

 

My parents spoke Polish, yet did not teach it, or encourage it to be taught, to any of us. This was largely due to our being post-WWII babies. There were many foreign refugees coming to the US at the end of that war, under the heading of 'displaced persons'...which came to be known as DPs - also a slur, regardless of the national origin of the refugee. My parents, just as their siblings and many of their friends, did not want us, their own children, to have to bear two slurs, so they discouraged the more outward signs of our heritage. I remember my mother saying, "don't act like a DP!" It was primarily within our own families or parish (in those days people tended to go to the parish associated with their ethnicity) where we felt comfortable showing our roots. Hopefully things have changed for the better....but sometimes I have my doubts.

 

I imagine there are MANY ethnic groups who could easily find similar stories in their family history. Doesn't make one any less hurtful than the others. Ethnic slurs of any kind are something I will not tolerate in my day to day life and I am happy to say I've gotten myself a bit of a reputation as lacking any 'sense of humor' about them. I am sure many people find ethnic slurs (and especially the jokes) as very humorous...but as funny as they may be, they are a million, million times more dangerous in the way they try to make it seem perfectly natural and fine to slam/ridicule/belittle someone for something they have absolutely no control over - their ethnic background.

 

End of rant. Sorry 'bout that - it is the one 'button' I have that is VERY easily pushed.

 

I do agree, however, that we Poles are VERY good looking.

[Empress1]

I don't think they consciously disregarded Ashley because of her weight - prejudice isn't usually that bald. It's just, they picked who they felt most comfortable with, who just happened to be the other young, hip (in their minds) skinny white girls. Candace had the hubris to think she could be "nice" and mentor Amanda, who she perceived as struggling, and for whatever reason it just devolved to selecting the little clique that they'd probably already settled into. They "got along" with everybody, and maybe even liked and respected Ashley and/or Laurie and Merline as much or even more than each other, but they nonetheless just didn't automatically feel like part of their little club. Not of course because they were overweight or minorities, but just because. This is how it works, subjectively - and objectively, it doesn't make a difference to the person who is perpetually left out because of it.  

Exactly. There's a great book called Some of My Best Friends Are Black: The Strange Story of Integration in America. The author, a white guy, talks about how he got his start in advertising, which is an industry notorious for its lack of diversity (which he discusses in the book). Basically he was hired by a friend, freely admits he was completely unqualified, and the entire team was shaped that way - they're like "So and so has that friend who writes funny emails, call him and see if he wants to work here." And I remember this quote: "Everyone hired people they knew, and everyone they knew was white."

 

People tend to gravitate toward people who are like them. I'm black. I have spent my entire life in academic and professional environments where I'm one of the few people of color (the last place was so bad that I was almost happy to be laid off). The further I go, the fewer faces of color I see. The "othering" that Candice, Lindsey, Amanda, and Kelly are doing to Ashley and Laurie, consciously or not, was immediately recognizable to me. They'll never admit it because they're likely not aware they're even doing it, but I firmly believe that's what's happening.

[Julia]

I'm spoiler tagging this for extreme length. Mods, if that's not appropriate, please feel free to remove, or let me know and I will.
 

The scenario which seems to me to fit the best is this: Candice, who was under the impression from her group win that she's much, much better at collaborating than she actually is (I think to some extent Ashley carried her), chose the losingest contestant ever to escape being eliminated by the skin of her pointy little teeth next. Let's face it, if they ended up on bottom, Amanda, who has the magic combination of little skill, no taste and an unpleasant personality, was going home. 
 
That choice meant that, since Amanda isn't going to choose someone more talented than she is, and they certainly weren't going to pick up Jake and Joseph out of the bottom feeder he-man woman hater's club, the next two choices were limited to the two who did get chosen, Kelly and Lindsey, one of whom is as insecure as Ashley and the other of whom has way, way more self-esteem than she's strictly speaking entitled to. 

Meanwhile, Blake chose the strongest person who vaguely shared his esthetic, because he was safe. Then, since the women inexplicably left them the entire center-dwelling group to pick from, they picked the Grand Duchess Joseph, which ensured that no other women were going to be picked before the end. Then of course they chose Merlene, who although she's far more talented at construction, has also proven that she will not only sit still for being bullied, but will do other peoples' work for them at the expense of her own.

Which is where Candice's weakness as a leader came in to play. She picked her team not to win, but to be safe when they lost, and... had nothing. So she made a vague motivational speech while the least-successful players on the board were messing things up good and proper like fourth graders at craft time and decided to wait for inspiration to strike without establishing a field for inspiration to strike in.

Which the most-talented player on the board pointed out was not a good idea. And, since apparently Candice is one of those who smelt it, dealt it people who thinks that the person who acknowledged the elephant in the room is the one responsible for putting an elephant in the room, she froze Ashley out.

And if there's anything self-promoting mediocrities like Amanda and Lindsey know how to do, it's align themselves with people more powerful and successful than themselves, particularly against outsiders and less popular people, from what we've seen in their talking heads.

I feel a little sorry for Designer Kelly, honestly. She did try to avoid throwing someone else under the bus for being the worst, but given a choice between the designer nobody supported and the three who clearly have no problem turning on someone who pisses them off, she chose to try to stay safe (especially since the honest answer from her was "me").

And that had to be extra scary for her, because I'd be willing to bet that she feels much the same way about being poor and from southie as Ashley does about being fat. Certainly a lot more people here feel comfortable about mocking the cobbled-together blue collar (at best) style of her particular not-at-all privileged streets than I see mocking Ashley.

JMO.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Julia

[RedheadZombie]

I think Edmond was chosen last, in part, because of his extreme secretive behavior when he was making the wedding dress.  That could have led to the assumption that he was not a team player.  As it turned out - he was.

[meep.meep]

Somebody said last episode, and I thought it was Laurie, that her hem was jagged because she'd dropped her scissors so many times. That made me wonder if the scissors she was using and wouldn't give up were actually hers.

 

If it was someone else who said that, then I stand corrected.

The person who had problems with dropped scissors was Gabrielle who was eliminated last episode.

[lark37]

 

But the overwhelming thing we need to keep sight of with these shows is they are producer/editor manipulated so we're seeing what story they want to tell.  Who knows how it really went down. 

 

This!   This whole episode reeked of producer manipulation.  Who knows if they were even told beforehand who to "pick" for their teams?  We have all been highly suspicious of the "button" bag for a long time thinking they control what "buttons" come out.  How do we know they weren't given "suggestions" beforehand of who to pick.  What better way to stir up drama than to deliberately leave the big girl (who has 2 wins) last to be picked?  Especially when we have seen plenty of talking heads of Ashley and know how sensitive she is and how easily she cries.  Why they would do that to her I don't know unless something else has gone down that we don't know about!  Even if it was legitimate, and Ashley was picked last, she should have made the best of it.  They aren't there to win friends, they are there to win period. Step up, Ashley, be the leader that Candice isn't, and make them listen to your voice. And Heidi is always adding to the drama when she asks in a team challenge, "who do you think should go home?" Again, hard to believe they all picked Ashley unless something else was going on we intentional weren't shown.

 

As for the winning team, I hated the wonky hem on Swapnil's bubble skirt.  It didn't look intentional, it just looked like he put too much stuffing on one side of the hem.  I thought Edmond's gown was beautiful, but not original as Grace Kelly wore it first which inspired numerous variations of the dress/gown over the years. http://mediastore.magnumphotos.com/CoreXDoc/MAG/Media/TR2/3/2/b/d/PAR136314.jpg.  Surprisingly the most interesting and innovative designs to me were Jake (with that cape effect in the back) and Merline's half draped/half straight coatdress. I would have given one of them the win.  However, Edmond is definitely a judge favorite as his plain black dress with yellow tail won in the first episode, and it certainly wasn't anything we hadn't seen before.

[slothgirl]

since the women inexplicably left them the entire center-dwelling group to pick from, they picked the Grand Dutchess Joseph, which ensured that no other women were going to be picked before the end. Then of course they chose Merlene....

Which is where Candice's weakness as a leader came in to play. She picked her team not to win, but to be safe when they lost, and... had nothing.

she froze Ashley out.

And if there's anything self-promoting mediocrities like Amanda and Lindsey know how to do, it's align themselves with people more powerful and successful than themselves, particularly against outsiders and less popular people, from what we've seen in their talking heads.

Candice didn't pick the team. She picked one person. She wasn't up there first because she was supposed to be the team leader; she was up first just because she was the person who got pulled out of the button bag to start the process of forming team 2.

 

I agree that she shows a fair amount of condescending type arrogance/hubris in her overall personality. But to lay the entire formation of the team at her door as a decision she made is unfair. I doubt that she had time in the heat of the moment after being called up to think through the ramifications of who each successive person might pick once she made her own pick. If she was that great a strategist, she'd have come up with a design strategy.

 

Likewise, the guy's team didn't pick or not pick. Each person made a pick. Picking Joseph only ensured that no woman would WANT to be picked by the team; it didn't ensure as a team, that no woman would get picked. If they could do basic math, they had to have realized that they'd end up with at least one female team member.

 

Everyone after Blake and Candice had a smidge more time to think about it though because at that point they were going back and forth between the 2 teams.

 

Another thing that occurred to me that may or may not have been playing a part in the decision to name Ashley as the person to go was that she was the person who the judges were obviously NOT going to eliminate. I've always thought it would be a great tactic for a team to band together and name the obviously best look to go so that they aren't "responsible" for someone getting auf'ed.

 

This of course, would be a far nicer tactic if you let that person IN on the strategy.

 

Did they ever ask Ashley who should go? I can't remember. If they didn't, it's somewhat suspect to me that they would actually have randomly first asked several other people who just happened to not be Ashley to get the ball rolling on the travesty.

 

I guess I'll have to watch the episode again, because I don't remember anyone specifically freezing Ashley out.. I just remember a whole lot of "over-talking" from everyone regardless of who was speaking. I also don't remember any attempts by Lindsay to align herself specifically with anyone, either in her talking heads or as strategy in the workroom. Amanda on the other hand has trashtalked people in her talking heads that she is supposedly aligned with....

[sinkwriter]

 

However, Edmond is definitely a judge favorite as his plain black dress with yellow tail won in the first episode, and it certainly wasn't anything we hadn't seen before.

 

He didn't win - it was Ashley's outfit that won the first episode. Edmond, however, did get praise from the judges for that dress.

 

I guess I'll have to watch the episode again, because I don't remember anyone specifically freezing Ashley out

 

I wouldn't say anyone froze her out as if she wasn't even there, but I would say that they ignored and handwaved away pretty much any suggestion or concern she tried to bring up. Everything Ashley talked about, Candice immediately dismissed with lots of her "We'll have time to worry about that later" or "Let's just go with the creative flow/inspiration and see what comes up" crap, even after they'd gotten a stern talking to from Tim. Candice seemed to have no conscious connection to the need for a solid plan and concept, and any time Ashley tried to mention anything that would potentially steer the group to finding a more solid foundation, she dismissed Ashley's comments (as did the other gals who seemed to go with Candice).

[Freckledbruh]

The judges did ask Ashley who should go and she said Amanda.

[Calamity Jane]

Ugh, I agree.  He's just so odd looking.

In his case, the look is due to contacts, but as was mentioned several times above, there are people from India with that combination of dark skin and grey, blue, or green eyes - I had one in my class just last year.  So I don't see how it qualifies as odd.  Unusual, yes, but not unnatural, and to me very striking.   

[lark37]

 

Btw, speaking as someone who was overweight and now is thin, "Thinsters" aren't some cabal of dark lords secretly collaborating to keep fat women down. There are some serious issues in our culture as a whole regarding female body image, fashion, and media, but casting women with a BMI under 23 ("thin" is a subjective comparative measure, so I picked a random objective form of measurement) as scheming villains constantly subsisting only on raw lettuce and water is just as nonsensical and unproductive as casting all fat women as lazy slobs. Do some people act horribly towards individuals due to their weight? Yes. But assuming that all the women (and apparently the men too, as they didn't select her either) somehow loathe her for a physical quality is beyond reaching. There isn't some grand Anti-Fat conspiracy at work.

 

Couldn't agree with you more.  I was also once quite overweight, and I am now thin, so I have been on both sides.  Some people are very judgmental about obese people, but some obese people are very catty to thin people.  And--none of the other designers said, to our knowledge, that they didn't want Ashley on their team because she is overweight.  That is possibly why she is so overly sensitive, but it still isn't an excuse to just "give up".  If she did try to make her voice heard with the other women, then they didn't show it.  From what they showed, she made a couple of half-hearted attempts to say they should have a concept first before doing anything else, but gave up way too easily.  At one point, she said "I am lost" when they were trying to salvage their collection.  I still think this episode was edited specifically to make us feel sorry for Ashley and dislike the other women.  Personally, I've yet to see her design anything (other than the muslin cape in the greeting card challenge) that didn't have a full skirt.  She seems competent, but nothing special as a designer.

[Kore]

Couldn't agree with you more. I was also once quite overweight, and I am now thin, so I have been on both sides. Some people are very judgmental about obese people, but some obese people are very catty to thin people. And--none of the other designers said, to our knowledge, that they didn't want Ashley on their team because she is overweight. That is possibly why she is so overly sensitive, but it still isn't an excuse to just "give up". If she did try to make her voice heard with the other women, then they didn't show it. From what they showed, she made a couple of half-hearted attempts to say they should have a concept first before doing anything else, but gave up way too easily. At one point, she said "I am lost" when they were trying to salvage their collection. I still think this episode was edited specifically to make us feel sorry for Ashley and dislike the other women. Personally, I've yet to see her design anything (other than the muslin cape in the greeting card challenge) that didn't have a full skirt. She seems competent, but nothing special as a designer.

She might (or might not) have assumed it was about weight for the same reason many commenters here have assumed it is a weight thing: latent insecurity. I used to think the whole world was staring at me and judging me, only later I realized that everyone is too busy staring in the mirror and the only person judging me was myself.

[Muffyn]

Personally, I've yet to see [Ashley] design anything (other than the muslin cape in the greeting card challenge) that didn't have a full skirt.  She seems competent, but nothing special as a designer.

I think Ashley struggles with fitting a pant on a slender model.  As a plus size designer, she is used to very different proportions.  The cut for a full skirt is not affected as much by the model's build.  It will be interesting to see how she progresses.  

[Rane]

My DVR decided to skip the last few minutes too, so I ended up re-watching the last 15 minutes or so, & the thing that made me laugh out loud was woobie teary Amanda turning to Candice, apparently expecting a hug goodbye on the runway (just after Heidi aufed her), but Candice had already turned her back & was stalking off without a second of concern or thought for the person she was purporting to help along at the beginning of the episode. Amanda's role (in Candice's mind) was to make Candice look good in the episode & when the bottom fell out of that I don't think Candice gave a fig about her anymore.

IMO this episode showed that Candice is potentially a one-trick pony who basically designs for herself. Demand anything that's out of her own comfort zone (e.g. pastels, color, certain fabrics) & she's lost. I actually think removing each designer's ability to pick the fabrics & colors they want from Mood adds an interesting twist to the challenges - they can't keep gravitating back to the same colors/fabrics that are in their wheelhouse, but have to deal with something new that potentially really pushes them, or ends in disaster as with the Easter egg explosion & Barney fabrics.

[Kromm]

Candice didn't pick the team. She picked one person. 

Don't confuse us with facts!   

 

Heh.

 

Again, we'd have to suspect wonky editing to read more into this. In the broadcast we didn't see Candice consult with the people as they showed up on the team about who came next.  IF that's the truth, then we'd instead have to think she's some mastermind who planned for all of this ahead of time. Otherwise it's in the end just people picking whoever they were most comfortable with. Shocking it happened to be the big girl with all the wins and the secretive uptight guy who'd also been doing really well, but again, the way it played out it really seemed the same strategy was being used by both the girls AND the boys, even if the Talking Heads had a boy smirking about how the girls were only picking their friends.  Well the same was true of the Boys.

[sinkwriter]

 

I used to think the whole world was staring at me and judging me, only later I realized that everyone is too busy staring in the mirror and the only person judging me was myself.

 

One of the hardest lessons to learn, especially when it's deeply ingrained from years of fear. I'm still working on that one myself.

[lorikauai]

The meanness was not in the picking last however foolish it may have been (someone had to be last and grown-ups should know how to suck it up and deal with it) but in shutting her out of the plan (or lack thereof) and pre-planning to assign the blame of the team failure to her. I think that's why many of us haven't said anything about the men not picking her. It wasn't the picking that offended but the treatment of a teammate.

[Kromm]

and pre-planning to assign the blame of the team failure to her

Do you really think the team KNEW they'd be asked who did the worst? While the show has done that once or twice in 14 seasons, it hasn't been so many times that I think anyone would be able to plan for it. 

 

And again, like with picking the teams, what we saw was essentially a chain reaction, not a coordinated action. And that first link, Contestant Kelly CLEARLY didn't want to name anyone.  How does it fit in with this theory that this was their goal all along if she very clearly tried to dodge naming anyone?  What instead happened was this chain where they started naming the same person she did because once someone's been named, it was probably easier to keep saying the same name than piss off another person (and Ashley was clearly ALREADY pissed off at all of them even before any of this--and they all knew that). Plus, as several have noted, she was the threat. If they had to pick someone, there were far more reasons to do so than them being snobby thin girls who hated the fat chick.

 

Was it possible that Laurie was completely on the level/not simply stirring and there was a deliberate plan? Sure. But the mechanics don't fit what we saw, so it was really more likely just a general bad feeling/disconnect about Ashley that had grown among them, combined with the obvious convenience of getting rid of a top threat. Honestly I think that was in play in a vague way even from the first moment, back in the initial picks when both Edmund and Ashley were last. Because I bet a lot of loose "who's the threat" shit had been shot around by some majority of the female AND male contestants in some off-screen social setting already and they all "knew" informally they'd take any chance possible to get rid of either of them. So not a plan, but a common feeling that came off seeming like one (as well as, unfortunately easily spinnable as mean-girl/sizist).

Edited September 5, 2015 by Kromm

[sinkwriter]

 

Do you really think the team KNEW they'd be asked who did the worst? While the show has done that once or twice in 14 seasons, it hasn't been so many times that I think anyone would be able to plan for it.

 

I can't speak for the poster and I'm not saying they could control it, it could have just been a "well, if they ask, we'll say Ashley." But that question has been asked repeatedly throughout the seasons whenever there's a team challenge. I would bet on that. I think it would have been a safe bet for them to plan that. And they sure acted guilty, especially Amanda, Kelly and Lindsey.

 

And again, like with picking the teams, what we saw was essentially a chain reaction, not a coordinated action. And that first link, Contestant Kelly CLEARLY didn't want to name anyone.  How does it fit in with this theory that this was their goal all along if she very clearly tried to dodge naming anyone?

 

Or... she didn't want to be the one to start it. Talk about awkward, and if she felt even a little guilty about it because she knew it wasn't unquestionably true to say Ashley was the "worst," I could see her hesitating like she did.

[lorikauai]

I've watched all the seasons and team members have been asked many times who should go home. I don't think that's anything new or unusual. It doesn't have to be some nefarious plot to have friends agree not to blame each other. Ashley being withdrawn maybe made herself a bigger target. Like I said before it was foolish to name Ashley because she has won two challenges and Heidi already chastised both teams for not picking her. A smart contestant has to consider how her responses come across to the judges. Even if it is not the intent to pick on her, in the context of her being picked last and overly emotional about it, it comes off as mean-spirited. That's why I said in my post that I was more bothered by their foolishness than anything else. Personal feelings about contestants will affect judging.

[sinkwriter]

 

If they had to pick someone, there were far more reasons to do so than them being snobby thin girls who hated the fat chick.

 

I'm not saying it was because she was fat (in fact, I'm more inclined to believe it's because they felt she was competition to remove). I'm just saying it's not impossible, and they sure the hell were acting guilty and they all chose to gang up on her.

Edited September 5, 2015 by sinkwriter

[Julia]

Well, it could have been something in between. Of the six of them, there were four blowing smoke up each other's asses, one (not very bravely) sitting on the side, and one speaking up about the problems. If there were comments about who the team players were, the four who considered themselves a team undoubtedly said that the two who weren't waving pom poms were not team players, and Candice definitely bitched about Ashley's attitude. And Laurie didn't have to be much of a chess player to figure out that the two not-team players were going to go under the bus, and there was no way Ashley was going home.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Julia

[dgpolo]

 

Do you really think the team KNEW they'd be asked who did the worst? While the show has done that once or twice in 14 seasons, it hasn't been so many times that I think anyone would be able to plan for it.

 

 

I've watched all the seasons and team members have been asked many times who should go home. I don't think that's anything new or unusual.

Totally agree with the second quote here, did a quick google search and came up with these, I know there were more I just stopped looking.

 

Heidi asked Korina that if her and Emily were the losing team in question, who should go home?-season 13

 

After a peek at each individual look, Heidi played that perverse game of asking each designer which teammate deserved to go home.-season 10

 

HK (a lotta Ks in there) asks who should go home,- season 9

 

Heidi asks each designer who was the weakest link –season 8

 

So yes, I think the teams should have/would have expected to have to answer that question and prepared in advance as well as they could.

[gingerormaryann]

In almost every team challenge that I've ever seen, the contestants are asked who was the weak link on a losing team, as who was the strongest member on the winning team. 

[Julia]

as, when Heidi asked Candice and Ashley who should get the win a couple of weeks ago.

[Empress1]

In almost every team challenge that I've ever seen, the contestants are asked who was the weak link on a losing team, as who was the strongest member on the winning team. 

Ditto, and not just on PR - they do it on Top Chef, they did it on the two seasons of The Apprentice I watched, and I'm certain it happens on other competitive team-based reality shows that I don't watch. It's one of those things you should be prepared for, like being able to make clothing from unconventional materials, being able to do basic menswear, and being able to design for non-models.

[backgroundnoise]

I don't blame Kelly for picking Ashley's garment as the worst, since she wasn't going to pick herself.  I would put Ashley's top as second bad myself (Kelly first).  And she did have to say someone.  Amanda and Lindsey I think picked Ashley because of their friendship with Kelly rather than their true feelings, but I'm just speculating.

 

As far as the producers making them pick the team member they did, I highly doubt that.  First of all, why would anyone agree to do something designed solely to make them look like bitches and make the audience hate them?  Second, if the producers had that ability to make designers do stuff like that, we would have heard about it from past designers.

 

I wonder if it was just an unplanned vicious circle:  Ashley doesn't get picked because of the physical challenge the designers are expecting, she gets mad and doesn't participate as much as she might have otherwise, the team doesn't like her not participating and start to resent that, she gets madder at their resentment, and so on.  Maybe what Laurie overheard was the others expressing their belief that Ashley has contributed the least (and their delusion about themselves mixed with Ashley's aloofness makes that a possibility).

[guilfoyleatpp]

And I'm just gonna add to this...as the fat girl who grew up in California (I've lived other places and it's an incredibly difficult place to be fat - as in Ashley's size, not just a size 16), and lived in San Francisco AND San Diego...your fatness negates you as a person. Also, people make moral judgments about you, but really it's mostly being ignored. Or when you're not ignored, you're ridiculed.

 

It may be intentional or subconscious, but you are somehow not included in group photos, your comments are not addressed in group discussions, you don't get included in the invite to lunch or drinks or coffee, people smirk at you behind your back (and sometimes you catch them). I have been walking down the street with a friend and seen a woman gesturing from inside a store about how fat I was. As in, she saw me walk by, I happened to be looking at her as she did a double take, mouthed "oh my god" to her friend while she was elbowing her and then made a circle with her arms to indicate my stomach.

 

People shouting about how they will harpoon you, no one wanting to be seen talking to you at parties or concerts or other venues because it's not "cool." Also, people acting so fucking surprised when you're not an idiot (because all fat people must be idiots) or that you work out regularly or you take vitamins. And maybe it's not 100% intentional. Maybe someone who is more than a little overweight is actually someone that some people need to find courage in order to speak to.

 

I am telling you, it's not a life for the faint of heart. And before you go on to "it's a choice, a lifestyle, eat less, exercise more" (which I haven't yet seen here, thank goodness), after a certain point it's not a choice, it's your daily life. People come in all shapes and sizes and we're not diseased or moral failures or idiots. 

 

So, all this to say I absolutely think that Ashley was picked last because of her size. And I think they chose to oust her because they excluded her. Because she is fat. And I expected this all along and was so pathetically pleased (perhaps like Ashley) when they were accepting and friendly to her at first - because that, in and of itself, is unusual. 

 

Things are changing, but this is the world that Ashley and I grew up in. And I totally get her.

[film noire]

And I'm just gonna add to this...as the fat girl who grew up in California (I've lived other places and it's an incredibly difficult place to be fat - as in Ashley's size, not just a size 16), and lived in San Francisco AND San Diego...your fatness negates you as a person. Also, people make moral judgments about you, but really it's mostly being ignored. Or when you're not ignored, you're ridiculed.

 

 (snipped only for space)

 

Beautifully expressed -- thanks for sharing your insight.

 

 

eta:

 

 

Since she struggled with school because of her dyslexia, she said fashion made her realize she has a special talent that she basically could be successful with that wasn't hampered by her learning disability

 

Yes -- good point -- another layer added to everything she's handling.

Edited September 6, 2015 by film noire

[gingerormaryann]

And the discussion should also be:  Would Ashley have reacted differently had she been on the Mens' team (even if she were picked last) and would that have influenced her design?  Laurie said that whenever Ashley tried to use her voice, she would be silenced by the Mean Girls. The Mens' team + Merlene amply demonstrated that everyone's individual talent and vision were not simply appreciated but completely necessary to the collection.  They said so, but you saw it.  And still every designer created something totally to their style.  Were her emotions the result of being picked last, the way she was treated during the challenge and on the runway, or a combination?

[Knuckles]

I was surprised that Edmond was picked last, but his teammates may have remembered the disaster of his partnering with Tommaio and wondered if he would work well on a team. If so, that's pretty reasonable. Ashley has won 2 challenges, and partnered successfully with Candice, so getting picked last was something of a surprise, especially as they picked Amanda and Lindsey over her, and they are incredibly weak designers. Still, it was the way that the self-appointed Candice ignored Ashley's efforts to get a group design theme introduced that grated. Candice's patronizing efforts to help struggling Amanda seemed designed to give herself a good edit...but failed miserably. Amanda is weak on design and construction and seemed just clueless...child, you are on the bottom because your work is not good.

Lindsey can go home any time now, her work is undistinguished, and Laurie is ready for the mall. 

 

Edmond's dress was beautifully done, but the real winner was the fabrics...wonderful and inventive. Go blue team.

[Kitty Redstone]

I'm also interested in twitter links, if anyone has them.  Twitter is not in my wheelhouse but I'm perversely curious.

 

I agree that poor Tim may be battling shingles or something similar. His skin looks painful to me.

 

I think he has roseaca.

 

 

Ah, the 15/15 rule.  Fond memories of reading fifteen pages or fifteen days (whichever is greater) before posting.

Awww, glad to see I'm not the only one following old TWoP rules!

[anonymiss]

It may be intentional or subconscious, but [...] people smirk at you behind your back (and sometimes you catch them).

 

So, all this to say I absolutely think that Ashley was picked last because of her size. And I think they chose to oust her because they excluded her. Because she is fat. 

The camera caught Candice rolling her eyes, whether in annoyance or disgust or both, when she had to wait to get past Ashley in the workroom. 

 

I agree--it's hardly a new phenomenon what we witnessed. Small-minded people like those who are like them, which is why it's not a coincidence the non-white girl Laurie was also last pickings. Good on Laurie for speaking out against their discrimination rather than trying to fit in with the clique.

Edited September 6, 2015 by anonymiss

[Beden]

And just MO but did anyone else notice (of course you did!) that having the extra day to work produced more finished and thought out garments--whether you happened to like them or not. And that stupid yet nicely flowing tent dress excepted.

 

Just saying.

[Bella]

I wonder if it was just an unplanned vicious circle: Ashley doesn't get picked because of the physical challenge the designers are expecting, she gets mad and doesn't participate as much as she might have otherwise, the team doesn't like her not participating .

Except she did participate. She was the one standing there with the paint gun and firing away as if she'd had military training. She said that she'd played paintball a lot with her father, and she was the leader in attacking the men's team. It was a very strong image and the one that stuck with me most from that part of the challenge. She threw herself into the paintball game and was a total team player. From my perspective, her frustration came largely from her many rejected attempts to be a team player.

[Kore]

The camera caught Candice rolling her eyes, whether in annoyance or disgust or both, when she had to wait to get past Ashley in the workroom.

I agree--it's hardly a new phenomenon what we witnessed. Small-minded people like those who are like them, which is why it's not a coincidence the non-white girl Laurie was also last pickings. Good on Laurie for speaking out against their discrimination rather than trying to fit in with the clique.

Or she could have been rolling her eyes for an entirely different reason and it was edited in a way so that viewers would tack it onto the Skinny Meanies vs Poor Fat Girl narrative they wanted.

[anonymiss]

Or she could have been rolling her eyes for an entirely different reason and it was edited in a way so that viewers would tack it onto the Skinny Meanies vs Poor Fat Girl narrative they wanted.

It was a continuous shot with both of them in the frame. So it's not editing but it's open to interpretation what she was thinking. Based on her behavior, it's the most likely conclusion to me. We know that people usually don't announce their prejudices out of shame (unless they're like Donald Trump) so they look for excuses like, "She wasn't a team player" (even though she was but they were determined to find her opinions worthless) or "I don't like culottes."

Edited September 6, 2015 by anonymiss

[aradia22]

 

I wouldn't say anyone froze her out as if she wasn't even there, but I would say that they ignored and handwaved away pretty much any suggestion or concern she tried to bring up. Everything Ashley talked about, Candice immediately dismissed with lots of her "We'll have time to worry about that later" or "Let's just go with the creative flow/inspiration and see what comes up" crap, even after they'd gotten a stern talking to from Tim. Candice seemed to have no conscious connection to the need for a solid plan and concept, and any time Ashley tried to mention anything that would potentially steer the group to finding a more solid foundation, she dismissed Ashley's comments (as did the other gals who seemed to go with Candice).

I'd have to rewatch the episode, which I really don't want to do, but I don't remember Ashley making really concrete suggestions. It was more like vague "let's make a plan" stuff which is rather meaningless to me. I'd give her more credit if she threw out Joseph's stupid 70's idea. I happen to think the men's team were also fucking around. The difference is that they didn't waste all their materials (the white fabric... and possibly most of the paint) in doing so. Once the men and Merline had a game plan, they went off to do their own things like the women did. But some of the them are stronger designers and also they weren't already feeling lost and defeated by their terrible fabric. I don't think there was that much collaboration on team Merline and the boys. They just put out more concrete suggestions (let's do 50's volume, let's put flowers on everything, let's paint the shoes blue, Jake's going to do blue fabric, etc.) and all the relatively good suggestions were adopted. The women tried to do that towards the end with purple fabric but it was too late.

[gingerormaryann]

 

I happen to think the men's team were also fucking around. The difference is that they didn't waste all their materials (the white fabric... and possibly most of the paint) in doing so. Once the men and Merline had a game plan, they went off to do their own things like the women did. But some of the them are stronger designers and also they weren't already feeling lost and defeated by their terrible fabric. I don't think there was that much collaboration on team Merline and the boys. They just put out more concrete suggestions (let's do 50's volume, let's put flowers on everything, let's paint the shoes blue, Jake's going to do blue fabric, etc.) and all the relatively good suggestions were adopted. The women tried to do that towards the end with purple fabric but it was too late.

I think that's total revisionist history.  Watch the episode again.  The guys were working on everything every second.   At the judging panel, each contestant on the boys+Merline talked about the contributions of each designer to each gown and were very specific about it.  Jake opened up by saying no one outfit was the sole product of any one designer.

[Julia]

Or she could have been rolling her eyes for an entirely different reason and it was edited in a way so that viewers would tack it onto the Skinny Meanies vs Poor Fat Girl narrative they wanted.

 

It was a continuous shot with both of them in the frame. So it's not editing but it's open to interpretation what she was thinking. Based on her behavior, it's the most likely conclusion to me. We know that people usually don't announce their prejudices out of shame (unless they're like Donald Trump) so they look for excuses like, "She wasn't a team player" (even though she was but they were determined to find her opinions worthless) or "I don't like culottes."

 

I think she was responding to Ashley, but not necessarily her size (for whatever little it's worth, I'm predisposed to size issues, since they literally didn't make women's clothes for women over six feet who weren't a size 12 when I was a kid - I grew up in my dad's old oxfords and boy jeans - and I haven't gotten skinnier since). My interpretation was that Candice thinks of leadership as something where you tell people what they're going to do and they make it happen. Whether that's a product of her dynamic or her being on her own since she was a teenager, I don't imagine she spends a whole lot of time accommodating other peoples' issues.

 

Which makes her a godawful manager, and probably not a lot of fun to work with, but (again, for whatever little it's worth) what I saw was Candice feeling that Ashley was challenging her management of the team, not contributing, leaving her with only the bottom feeders to work with and making her look really bad.

 

The other players had their own reasons. Yes, I do think at least Lindsey and Amanda had an element of high school pecking order in their behavior, because they both have been equally disrespectful of Candice in talking heads but wouldn't dare cross her in public. I think Kelly is as much of an outsider as Ashley, but she's in a much more precarious position on the show, and realistically, it's a tossup whether the mean girls are going to go after the fat girl or the poor girl with the thrift shop clothes and the makeup she doesn't realize isn't right. More than that, I think all of them wanted to keep players who suck worse than they do, because that's the only way they have a shade of a hope for even a decoy collection. 

Edited September 6, 2015 by Julia

[slothgirl]

Ok.. I watched the episode on-demand last night and I rewound quite a few times to watch certain scenes more than once.

My opinion of Candice has gone down. But I have to say my opinion of Ashley went (further) down as well.

 

One thing I did NOT see was the team dismissing everything (or even ANYTHING) Ashley said.

 

Granted the talking heads are not filmed contemporaneously, but in the first talking head shown after the selection, Ashley comes right out and says she didn't even want to be on the team after the selection. Although that is an understandable reaction, she backed it up by offering little to nothing (from what we were shown), even when her viewpoint was solicited!

 

In another, she says that she is taking a back seat and staying quiet. In one interaction, she says she's trying to adapt to everyone else, and Candice says "You need to give us YOUR viewpoint and ideas too" and gives her time to talk, and Ashley replies that she doesn't want to do/suggest something and then have them all hate it. It is at that point they show Candice's talking head about designing and sewing "Ashley's" outfit (complete with eyerolls). They didn't show Ashley offering an idea and I don't think Candice actually mentioned Ashley in that talking head. For all we know she was talking about someone else!

 

Yes everyone was talking at once frequently, but that wasn't something that only occurred when Ashley tried to speak up. She wasn't isolated by the team, she isolated herself because she was picked last and either sulked or withdrew (depending on your viewpoint) the entire time (from what we were shown).

 

Laurie says in (at least) one meeting that she doesn't know what their direction is or what they are doing, and pretty much everyone, including Amanda AGREED. Ashley or someone else later said something similar and again, most everyone AGREED. It was a recurring theme. It certainly was NOT the case the everyone was fine with it and shot down Ashley as the lone voice trying to point out the problem.

 

The only person I remember (this morning) expressing any desire to wing it was Candice, and I think that's because she wanted to be the leader, and wasn't suited at all to be one. Everyone else seemed distressed by the lack of guidance and cohesion. However, I got no impression of Ashley offering any solutions nor did I see her talking in groups about the lack thereof any more than anyone else, nor anyone dismissing her concern AT ALL.

 

In her talking head about the "conspiracy" against Ashley to throw her under the bus, Laurie says that she could hear and feel everyone's frustration with Ashley. I'm betting they were frustrated that she wasn't contributing. I saw NO mean girl behavior towards her in the televised interactions. I didn't even hear them talk about her in the talking heads. With the exception of Candice's "Do I have to do it for you" comment that we assume was Ashley due to when it was shown to us, and Laurie's mention of everyone's frustration with her, I don't remember a single talking head about Ashley catty or otherwise (or any catty comments from workroom footage). I can't imagine that if catty comments had occurred, they wouldn't have shown it to further their chosen narrative of Ashley as Victim. The fact that the editing monkeys chose this as the story of the episode and had so few actual film-clips of people saying negative things to or about Ashley is revealing to me. I feel certain they would have shown them if they had them, which is why I feel they are jerking us around.

 

I was struck however by all the self-deprecating comments from everyone about their own looks. Including Candice and Amanda.

 

Scissorgate:

I saw this differently on 2nd viewing also. I think if Ashley had been in Amanda's place and Amanda had been in Laurie's, many viewers would also see it differently. Amanda behaved snittily once Laurie refused, but she only wanted to cut one thread to get her garment out of the machine. Laurie refused to lend them for the 2 seconds it would have taken and Amanda DID ask politely. I agree with Amanda that teamwork would have dictated a "sure, let me finish this cut I'm doing" response followed lending the scissors. I'm fairly certain that if anyone had refused Ashley the 2 second use of the scissors in the same circumstance, that would be fodder for "Mean-girl" accusations.

 

Amanda then behaved badly herself with her passive-aggressive response, but Laurie's attitude was fairly poor as well in that interaction. You can be sure that if the situation had occurred on the other team, scissors would have been freely passed back and forth.

Edited September 6, 2015 by slothgirl

[sinkwriter]

 

I'd have to rewatch the episode, which I really don't want to do, but I don't remember Ashley making really concrete suggestions. It was more like vague "let's make a plan" stuff which is rather meaningless to me.

 

That's true, but she was also trying to start the conversation, and Candice immediately dismissed it, ignored it, wasn't interested in even discussing it.

 

I really do think a large part of the problem was Candice, because she appointed herself the "leader" of the group, took charge of all the conversations, and even when -- as slothgirl points out -- other people were confused about the direction or concept of their project, Candice kept talking about going with the flow and seeing what creatively stirs up, which is much more useless. I can appreciate letting creativity simmer and bubble up, but when they only have a specific amount of time, they need to talk specifics, options, anything. And Candice as their "leader" did not do that, even when Ashley half-heartedly tried to say she was confused or didn't know what she was doing (and the rest of the women said the same thing).

Edited September 6, 2015 by sinkwriter

[slothgirl]

Edmond's dress was beautifully done, but the real winner was the fabrics...wonderful and inventive. Go blue team.

As much as I'm not a fan of Jake as a person, and as much as I liked Edmond's (not particularly original) dress, I would have liked for Jake to get the win. In addition to having a great outfit, he was the real producer of the fabric.

 

If they had REALLY wanted to shake things up, they could have made the entire team winners and given them ALL immunity. Now THAT would have been a great twist! (and would effect the outcome very little since we can be sure that Kelly or Lindsey will most likely go next anyway.. my money's on Kelly)

[Kromm]

I think that's total revisionist history.  Watch the episode again.  The guys were working on everything every second. 

It's actually pretty impossible to tell that, given that we see about 2% of what anyone's doing on this show. Clearly the editing and narrative we heard through Talking Heads was saying they were all in overall harmony, but it may be a bit much to conclude there weren't conflicts we didn't see.  

 

In the end they did better work, that's undeniable.

[Julia]

I have trouble believing that Joseph was uniformly positive and supportive towards his fellow contestants, but he did at least manage to simulate it for brief periods of time. Which seems to lend some support to the producer manipulation theory, because Joseph seems to have a remarkable talent for saying things in his talking heads that move the chosen narrative along.

[Kromm]

Ok.. I watched the episode on-demand last night and I rewound quite a few times to watch certain scenes more than once.

My opinion of Candice has gone down. But I have to say my opinion of Ashley went (further) down as well.

 

One thing I did NOT see was the team dismissing everything (or even ANYTHING) Ashley said.

 

Granted the talking heads are not filmed contemporaneously, but in the first talking head shown after the selection, Ashley comes right out and says she didn't even want to be on the team after the selection. Although that is an understandable reaction, she backed it up by offering little to nothing (from what we were shown), even when her viewpoint was solicited!

 

In another, she says that she is taking a back seat and staying quiet. In one interaction, she says she's trying to adapt to everyone else, and Candice says "You need to give us YOUR viewpoint and ideas too" and gives her time to talk, and Ashley replies that she doesn't want to do/suggest something and then have them all hate it. It is at that point they show Candice's talking head about designing and sewing Ashley's outfit (complete with eyerolls). They didn't show Ashley offering an idea.

 

Yes everyone was talking at once frequently, but that wasn't something that only occurred when Ashley tried to speak up. She wasn't isolated by the team, she isolated herself because she was picked last and either sulked or withdrew (depending on your viewpoint) the entire time (from what we were shown).

 

Laurie says in (at least) one meeting that she doesn't know what their direction is or what they are doing, and pretty much everyone, including Amanda AGREED. Ashley or someone else might have said something similar at some point and again, most everyone AGREED. It was a recurring theme. It certainly was NOT the case the everyone was fine with it and shot down Ashley trying to point out the problem.

 

The only person I remember (this morning) expressing any desire to wing it was Candice, and I think that's because she wanted to be the leader, and wasn't suited at all to be one. Everyone else seemed distressed by the lack of guidance and cohesion. However, I got no impression of Ashley offering any solutions nor did I see her talking in groups about the lack thereof any more than anyone else, nor anyone dismissing her concern AT ALL.

 

In her talking head about the "conspiracy" against Ashley to throw her under the bus, Laurie says that she could hear and feel everyone's frustration with Ashley. I'm betting they were frustrated that she wasn't contributing. I saw NO mean girl behavior towards her in the televised interactions. I didn't even hear them talk about her in the talking heads. With the exception of Candice's "Do I have to do it for you" comment and Laurie's mention of everyone's frustration with her, I don't remember a single talking head about Ashley catty or otherwise (or any catty comments from workroom footage). I can't imagine that if catty comments had occurred, they wouldn't have shown it to further their chosen narrative of Ashley as Victim. The fact that the editing monkeys chose this as the story of the episode and had so few actual film-clips of people saying negative things to or about Ashley is revealing to me. I feel certain they would have shown them if they had them, which is why I feel they are jerking us around.

 

I was struck however by all the self-deprecating comments from everyone about their own looks. Including Candice and Amanda.

 

Scissorgate:

I saw this differently on 2nd viewing also. I think if Ashley had been in Amanda's place and Amanda had been in Laurie's, many viewers would also see it differently. Amanda behaved snittily once Laurie refused, but she only wanted to cut one thread to get her garment out of the machine. Laurie refused to lend them for the 2 seconds it would have taken and Amanda DID ask politely. I agree with Amanda that teamwork would have dictated a "sure, let me finish this cut I'm doing" response followed lending the scissors. I'm fairly certain that if anyone had refused Ashley the 2 second use of the scissors in the same circumstance, that would be fodder for "Mean-girl" accusations.

 

Amanda then behaved badly herself with her passive-aggressive response, but Laurie's attitude was fairly poor as well in that interaction. You can be sure that if the situation had occurred on the other team, scissors would have been freely passed back and forth.

Bingo.  There's a lot of truth in this.

 

First I agree almost all of the women came off badly (not Contestant Kelly so much, but we saw comparatively little of her this episode). Candice didn't seem like the overall evil schemer she's been sold as, but she did seem blunt, overly take charge and tone deaf.  Ashley meanwhile came off as almost going out of her way to find hurt feelings, sulky, and defeatist. Amanda just seemed like a headcase--at least from her Talking Heads if not so much in person. Laurie, again, seemed like a total shit stirrer. I'm not even saying she wasn't reporting the truth as she perceived it, but she didn't seem willing to DO anything about the problems she perceived other than ramp up Ashley's paranoia, and then later get herself in good with the judges by playing the offended observer.

 

The implications that people were just stepping all over Ashely when she tried to speak I also agree is us being sold a bill of good that doesn't really seem to match what we saw. Oh, we saw a careful picked clip showing people talking over her, but these magpies were also clearly just talking and talking and talking over each other too--just blathering on like idiots, if we're being honest. There was no deliberate attempt to steamroll Ashley from what we saw, other than a single questionable moment by Candice which could have been interpreted a few different ways. That certainly can't be all that happened in hours of footage, but if they were more overtly mean or dismissive I bet we would have been shown it. The material would have been too rich to pass up airing.

 

I think there was no "plot" other than an overall agreement from BOTH most of the men and most of the women to bring down the two most competitive players--Edmund and Ashley.  Edmund didn't fall pray to this as much because he didn't sulk about where he was picked--didn't care in the least in fact--and he was also lucky that whatever other dynamics were on his team didn't include lots of chatter and screwball ideas that led to the whole team losing the plot.  The women, meanwhile, fucked things up from moment 1, when they (at least thought they) picked the wrong fabrics--although it also seemed to be producer sabotage too, because I don't know if anyone else noticed, but the teams were offered fabric colors in line with their PAINT colors, so it's not like they actually had much of a choice. So those horrible pink and purple shades were pre-designated to the women--the show perhaps hoping this would equal out the gender numbers with a female elimination, but also cause some kind of freak-out/cycle of drama.  And they got their wish. But it wasn't a plot against Ashley as much as it leading to that chicken-with-their-heads cut off panic mode, and that's what had them all blathering and talking a mile a minute over each other.  Not some desire to exclude Ashley.