S03.E12: The Number Of The Beast Is 666

[Snookums]

So I rewatched this with my husband and I've finally figured out why I feel bad for Chilton, and why he was so easy to set up, in all ways --psychologically, morally, physically--it's because Chilton is the only sincere character.

 

Now, by sincere I don't mean likeable or earnest or even dogged; just like how Will's empathy doesn't exonerate him, Chilton's sincerity doesn't make him a good person. He's a wee shit, a rabid weasel, a strutting little banty cock, a wannabe True Boy Detective, a blowhard, Calvin without a balancing Hobbes to humanize him. But he really believes in the version of reality he's constructed. In his head, he's an amazing shrink, a bestselling author, a hero. 

 

Every single person he interacts with during the setup has this moment of "Oh, man, I'm almost starting to feel bad now." Hannibal can't believe that Chilton really can't grasp that he doesn't see Chilton as a peer or an assistant ("A nemesis? *smirk* No.") Alana, sitting in on the interview, actually almost squirms at the ease at which he throws himself into the spotlight. Freddie keeps giving "Really?...okay" glances at Will as he does everything but physically work the jaw, and Will himself watches himself putting his hand on Frederick's shoulder. All of them watching, realizing that Frederick Chilton is seeing this as a triumph, of his peers finally acknowledging that they need his expertise and vast knowledge of the criminal mind. Almost starting to feel bad now, like luring a puppy into a burlap sack with a handful of treats. Too easy, fish in a barrel, candy from a baby...there's no cliche you could look up that doesn't have Frederick Chilton beaming at you in oily satisfaction.

 

They all get called on it later, with Will and Alana having the grace to at least acknowledge that they had less of a problem tying the pork chop around his neck then they know they should have. They're the "good" guys, after all. (Jack, as God, accepts his responsibility without an eyeblink of emotion and moves on, of course.) Because they don't like him. They've got vast and myriad reasons not to, of course--Frederick Chilton is a greasy little sneakbastard whose vainglorious motives and shady psychiatric practices were both criminal and immoral. But how does that make him different then anybody else in this little cabal? Chilton at least, if strapped to a lie detector, would pass with flying colors if asked about his motives and morals. Because he's sincere, as sincere as Linus waiting for the Great Pumpkin on Halloween. Too bad that pumpkin patch was full of snails.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Snookums

[Captanne]

Who did Gideon Abel do a living dissection of?  Was that Chilton? 

 

These people are in the WRONG line of work.

[Brattinella]

So I rewatched this with my husband and I've finally figured out why I feel bad for Chilton, and why he was so easy to set up, in all ways --psychologically, morally, physically--it's because Chilton is the only sincere character.

 

Now, by sincere I don't mean likeable or earnest or even dogged; just like how Will's empathy doesn't exonerate him, Chilton's sincerity doesn't make him a good person. He's a wee shit, a rabid weasel, a strutting little banty cock, a wannabe True Boy Detective, a blowhard, Calvin without a balancing Hobbes to humanize him. But he really believes in the version of reality he's constructed. In his head, he's an amazing shrink, a bestselling author, a hero. 

 

Every single person he interacts with during the setup has this moment of "Oh, man, I'm almost starting to feel bad now." Hannibal can't believe that Chilton really can't grasp that he doesn't see Chilton as a peer or an assistant ("A nemesis? *smirk* No.") Alana, sitting in on the interview, actually almost squirms at the ease at which he throws himself into the spotlight. Freddie keeps giving "Really?...okay" glances at Will as he does everything but physically work the jaw, and Will himself watches himself putting his hand on Frederick's shoulder. All of them watching, realizing that Frederick Chilton is seeing this as a triumph, of his peers finally acknowledging that they need his expertise and vast knowledge of the criminal mind. Almost starting to feel bad now, like luring a puppy into a burlap sack with a handful of treats. Too easy, fish in a barrel, candy from a baby...there's no cliche you could look up that doesn't have Frederick Chilton beaming at you in oily satisfaction.

 

They all get called on it later, with Will and Alana having the grace to at least acknowledge that they had less of a problem tying the pork chop around his neck then they know they should have. They're the "good" guys, after all. (Jack, as God, accepts his responsibility without an eyeblink of emotion and moves on, of course.) Because they don't like him. They've got vast and myriad reasons not to, of course--Frederick Chilton is a greasy little sneakbastard whose vainglorious motives and shady psychiatric practices were both criminal and immoral. But how does that make him different then anybody else in this little cabal? Chilton at least, if strapped to a lie detector, would pass with flying colors if asked about his motives and morals. Because he's sincere, as sincere as Linus waiting for the Great Pumpkin on Halloween. Too bad that pumpkin patch was full of snails.

Beautiful writing!  Bravo!

[Crossbow]

Who did Gideon Abel do a living dissection of?  Was that Chilton? 

 

These people are in the WRONG line of work.

 

Yes, he was vivisected in season 1 and shot in the face season 2.He's probably better off now.

[Captanne]

Wow.  It's like Alana got off scot free -- with only every bone in her body broken and a stint in an alien holodeck.

[saber5055]

I agree that many people share some level of blame for what happened to Chilton, but when Alana told Hannibal it was his fault because he challenged his ideas with the journal article, I snorted at her. The hell? That's a few too many steps away.

 

 

IMO, the only one responsible for what happened to Chilton is Red Dragon/Tooth Fairy.

[Crossbow]

No one set Chilton up on purpose though. Will was supposed to be the bait. In the interview, Chilton was giving clinical speeches and Will kept interrupting with insults. Will had the SWAT team because they expected the Tooth Fairy to go after him. They didn't realize that the interview made Chilton look like Will's pet, and the Tooth Fairy kills the pets first. Will is the only one who could have predicted that the he would see it that way but it didn't bubble up to his consciousness in time. (Hannibal could have predicted it, but no one asked him and if they had he would have encouraged it anyway.)

[saber5055]

So why were Chilton's lips presented to Hannibal? And put in such a position that he could snatch one up and eat it?

 

Alana and Jack continue to be such dumb asses.

[poppy-]

Everyone knew Chilton was bait.    That's why Alana declined the offer to do the interview herself: "I'd have to be a fool" [cut to shot of Chilton].

 

I don't think Hannibal literally ate the lip. I think that shot was just a flash into his mind: calm exterior, giddy inside.

Want to add, Reba sort-of sensing Chilton's presence was fantastic TV.  I was breathless those few moments.

[Neurochick]

Everybody knew that Chilton could be bait, except for Chilton.   Chilton is sincere in that he believes the bullshit he's shelling out.  

[Snookums]

I agree that many people share some level of blame for what happened to Chilton, but when Alana told Hannibal it was his fault because he challenged his ideas with the journal article, I snorted at her. The hell? That's a few too many steps away.

 

 

She was right; Hannibal did exactly that, and Chilton was full of totally predictable righteous indignation, which Hannibal gleefully played with during their interview--Frederick as virtuously furious as the Mouse King in the Nutcracker Ballet and Hannibal a smirkingly droll  Drosselmeyer, putting things in motion for the sheer hell of it. He knew he was winding Frederick up for something and being Hannibal, also surmised it would have something to do with his latest manipulation object, Dollarhyde.

 

But Alana isn't off the hook, and she knows it. She isn't stupid, no matter how often she and Jack deal with Hannibal rather than ignore him. She was waiting right outside the door for Chilton to emerge all delusionally "guess I told HIM!" to present a temptingly tasty morsel--we need you, Frederick, need you to help catch the Tooth Fairy. He'll sense it's a trap if it's just little ol' us. We can't do this without you. 

 

When Hannibal cheerfully, in excellent humor, points this out, that he may have loaded the gun but she was there to fire it, and that it was "professionally discourteous"--well, she can't deny it. The humiliation of having that pointed out by Hannibal may be sharp but it's deserved. 

 

Hannibal, in his guise as the Devil Himself, has many gifts, but his greatest is seeking out, magnifying and twisting all the things about yourself that you'd rather not face directly. That you'd rather cover, hide, cloak in elaborate language games and prancings. At first it's fun, and flattering, and ego-stroking: of COURSE all of you look down on Frederick Chilton, he's an idiot and a fool, and has a bad propensity for raking and scarring the psyches under his care to promote himself in the eyes of the world. He's paid for it, naturally--even before Dollarhyde got hold of him he was already a patchwork of a man because he could not resist sticking himself into situations he couldn't handle. He's also caused real and lasting harm to Alana and Will through his schemings and plottings. Nothing to question there!

 

But it keeps going a little further, just a little further. Every time the better angel of your nature tries to pull up the reins Hannibal's right there to urge you on instead. And face it, Frederick Chilton makes it easy. He never learns. He always makes the same mistakes, and continually puts his image of himself before anything else, the moron. He kinda sorta deserves this. Just a little bit. Aren't you curious as to what would finally open his eyes? 

 

Hannibal the Cannibal devours all. His agency in the world is your own weakness. Without him this never would have happened, but that goes for you, too.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Snookums

[Captanne]

Ya know?  Sometimes this show really sucks.  Bye, show, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

 

(Okay, I'll miss Dancy's Will and Mikkelsen's Hannibal and Fishburne's Crawford.  And Izzard's Abel.  Otherwise -- ugh, the writers, Buh.  Dee.  Lee. Yah.,  and Fuller can leave.)

 

However, as I've mentioned before -- it never sank to the depths of "unwatchable" that "Dig" did.  So there's that.  This show had a lot going for it -- terrific performances (mainly) from a great cast (all of them to a one is a wonderful actor, imo) and some truly fabulous cinematography.  Some of that artsy work was truly remarkable and enjoyable.  I particularly commend the composer.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Captanne

[Crossbow]

So why were Chilton's lips presented to Hannibal? And put in such a position that he could snatch one up and eat it?

 

Alana and Jack continue to be such dumb asses.

 

Answered your own question there!

 

They are doing an awful lot of things that make no sense, but remember this entire show started out with Alana referring Will to Hannibal for his psych eval... BECAUSE HE WAS THERE. It never made sense, it's never going to make sense, if you expect it to make sense you'll always be disappointed.

[MrsR]

They didn't originally present the lips to Hannibal. They were in the package that they had to give to Hannibal after they x-rayed it. X-ray for weapons or explosives. They are legally required to give him his mail and can't read it before he does because that's against the law. Hannibal had the lips in his cell which is when he slurped one up. Once they can see it's that it's contents contain an evidence of a crime they can look at it.

[BigBlueMastiff]

 

Having two guys on Frederick wasn't nearly enough protection.  Frederick should have been kept in a fully secure location during the "operation".  Unlike the book and film versions, there WAS reason to think he might go after Chilton.  In the books he goes after Freddie and it's a bit of a curve ball.

Based on the book and movies, I thought anyone associated with that article would've been a target. They all offended Francis, so no surprise it was Freddie. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but in the book/movies, Chilton had nothing to do with the article. I'm pretty sure all the quotes came from Will, and may have been embellished by Freddie.

[Crossbow]

They didn't originally present the lips to Hannibal. They were in the package that they had to give to Hannibal after they x-rayed it. X-ray for weapons or explosives. They are legally required to give him his mail and can't read it before he does because that's against the law. Hannibal had the lips in his cell which is when he slurped one up. Once they can see it's that it's contents contain an evidence of a crime they can look at it.

 

Ah, thanks. I missed the first few minutes. When I turned it on he was slurping up one of the lips and I was, WHA?

Based on the book and movies, I thought anyone associated with that article would've been a target. They all offended Francis, so no surprise it was Freddie. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but in the book/movies, Chilton had nothing to do with the article. I'm pretty sure all the quotes came from Will, and may have been embellished by Freddie.

 

In the book all the quotes came from Will, but on the show, Will gives all the same quotes. Verbatim, I think. Chilton is giving the clinical answers and Will is turning them into insults. Although in the book the reason Freddy isn't protected is that he ran off to Chicago to do the layout and was supposed to be back in DC and under protection before the paper came out. Not only should Chilton have been protected, it was out of character for Chilton not to insist on his own SWAT team.

 

Will was the only intended bait, though. They made sure the picture showed where Will was staying. They knew anyone involved could be at risk, but the trap was set up around Will.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Crossbow

[Captanne]

Also, in Manhunter that is made clear -- we watch Will skulk around alone at night in a DC parking lot (across from the Department of Agriculture, to be exact) and think a random figure in a hoodie is the Dragon.  SWAT descends and they have the wrong guy -- just a jogger.  (George Zimmerman, are you reading this?  Take a note.)

 

MEANWHILE, back at the ranch, Dragon has grabbed Freddie Loundes and the rest is BBQ history.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Captanne

[jeansheridan]

So I rewatched this with my husband and I've finally figured out why I feel bad for Chilton, and why he was so easy to set up, in all ways --psychologically, morally, physically--it's because Chilton is the only sincere character.

 

 

Oh Snookums.  Lovely.  And so true.  Plus the actor is so likeable.  He was from the get-go.  He had smarm down, with an emphasis on charm.  

[jeansheridan]

In the book version, Dr. Alan Bloom is the "professional" voice in the article.  In the book he is prevented from being hurt partially because he goes into surgery for a gall bladder issue.  I was a bit surprised at how much of the dialogue on the show really is just pulled directly from the books.  No reason to reinvent the wheel I guess, but it really is just pulled out.  And so we get that odd "for my pleasure" line that doesn't seem to work anywhere but in Harris's head.  

 

Seeing Mads slurp up that lip was one of the more disturbing images in this entire series.  I closed my eyes when Chilton got bit.  I couldn't watch.  Just couldn't.  I honestly had hoped Reba would save him somehow, someway.  But I think Will needs his death as a motivator.  Will needs to wake up and face what he is almost becoming.  A man so "curious" he would let a more or less innocent man die a horrible, horrible death.  I deeply appreciate how unstoic Frederick was until he faced Will.  Frederick really did fight for his life with every means possible short of talking to Reba and honestly that wouldn't have saved him.  I was sort of hoping she'd call the police when she left ("Police?  Yeah, I heard a man whimpering in my ex-boyfriend's house and there was a strong odor of urine ...can you do a check please?  Thanks.").

[Tippi Blevins]

Doesn't Chilton wear dentures since getting shot in the face? I guess nobody saw the point in trying to take them out after he got burned. Or maybe they can't be taken out now. *shudder*

[MisterGlass]

So I rewatched this with my husband and I've finally figured out why I feel bad for Chilton, and why he was so easy to set up, in all ways --psychologically, morally, physically--it's because Chilton is the only sincere character.

But he really believes in the version of reality he's constructed. In his head, he's an amazing shrink, a bestselling author, a hero.

 

I disagree in part.  Chilton knows he's a liar and a cheat, but he believes in the success of the lies he's constructed, like his own ill-fitting person suit.  He expects people to take him based on the image he presents, but sadly for him everyone who knows him can see through his disguise, and the person underneath is awkward, shallow, and self-serving.  I think it is good enough for him to seem to be the real thing, but he keeps failing at it.  That's why he's so excited to be taken seriously in the interview.  It seems like for a few minutes everyone is buying his show.  In spite of his own lies Chilton is far too eager to accept other people at face value; in that sense he is very sincere.  The interview set up is the clear example, and the acceptance of Will and Jack's assurance that he would be safe. Chilton never expected Hannibal to give him a serious challenge with the article because he had agreed to tell the lies that would benefit Hannibal, and that seemed like the perfect arrangement.

 

Chilton under his lie-suit had some redeeming qualities.  He was never willing to directly harm someone, or to act in a way that would case harm.  He was occasionally right in his psychological assessments, and he helped Will to understand just what kind of therapy he had received.  He even accepted the idea that Hannibal was a cannibal when few others would.

 

they think they took all his toys, but people are his favorite toys.

I don't think Hannibal can distinguish "in love with" from "wants possession of."

 

^^These.

 

I wonder if the reason Hannibal undermined his own insanity defense is to prompt a new trial and a possible change of housing from which he could escape.

[Captanne]

The whole left side of Chilton's face (and his eyeball?) was a prosthetic.  I wonder if that's noticeable in the body we see when he "talks" to Will (which is just a laughable scene because he'd be in a medically induced coma he'd be on so much pain medication.)

 

No comment about the metal plate he used as a cheek and jaw, huh.  You'd think the doctors would find that remarkable.  (Surely not the same team did his facial reconstruction surgery as did his most recent medical procedures.) 

[qtpye]

Chilton is usually portrayed as a mean horrible man.  However, this actor made Chilton almost endearing.  It was so sad because the guy thought he finally got a seat at the cool kids table, only to have a bucket of pigs blood dumped on his head.

 

Also, it is annoying how smug everyone is about how Chilton does not measure up.  I think very few people on this show can claim moral superiority at this point.

Edited August 26, 2015 by qtpye

[Crossbow]

I wonder if the reason Hannibal undermined his own insanity defense is to prompt a new trial and a possible change of housing from which he could escape.

 

Possibly, but I think it's more likely he did it just for fun. Fun and curiosity are his primary motives for pretty much everything.

Chilton is usually portrayed as a mean horrible man.  However, this actor made Chilton almost endearing.

 

A good description I read was that compared to Anthony Heald's completely smarmy version, Raúl Esparza's is more low-key "in it for the long haul" smarm.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Crossbow

[Bruinsfan]

It probably helps that a lot of book/movie Chilton's more hostile lines and decisions are given to Alana, and they seem more like angry discipline coming from her rather than pettiness. Chilton basically had no power to abuse in the series.

[Crossbow]

Yeah, even when Will was in the hospital with Chilton poking at him, Will always had the upper hand and they both knew it. He actually HELPED Will with remembering what happened, and transfering Gideon next to him. He was mildly rude to Alana when they first met. Basically his worst offenses have been that he's a bit irritating. Oh, and brainwashing Gideon, but he got sued and vivisected for that so he probably learned his lesson...

[Fen]

I actually delayed watching this episode for several days, because I knew what was coming.  

 

In terms of what actually happened - it was horrible.  Hard to watch, and I like horror films.

 

In seasons 1 and 2, when you could still justifiably call Jack, Alana and Will 'good guys' (albeit conflicted) - Chilton and Freddie are presented as generally morally contemptible.  They're not Hannibal - but they're usually looked down on by the other main characters for their self-interest.  

 

That still seems to be in place in season 3 - we saw Will, Jack and Alana all reject Chilton's attempt at an alliance early in s3, with varying degrees of sneeriness.  But it now seems really discordant given how far our main characters have sunk.  Jack tried to murder Hannibal.  Will tried to murder Hannibal, and forced Chiyoh's hand.  Alana murdered a guard, aided Mason while being fully aware he wanted to torture Hannibal, and eventually helped to murder Mason himself.  They're all killers.  For them all still - then - to view Chilton as somehow beneath them, and eminently disposable seems absurd, and utterly hypocritical.

 

Crucially - as a viewer - it makes it much harder for me to care about them going into the finale than it should.  I simply don't like these peple as much as I used to.  As it stands, I'm feeling a bit meh about their collective safety.  

 

He admittedly did, and even if he hadn't admitted to it, it would still be the feeling I got too...  Will asking Chilton to be included in the picture alone screamed set up for me, because no way Will would want to be in the same picture with Chilton without an ulterior motive. And then that awkward hand on Chilton's shoulder thing, again, so so not like Will.. The why is the reason why I am so worried for Will now. There is absolutely no "good" reason, no "greater good" in doing this to Chilton. When Will killed Randall Tier or ate him, it was self defense and all part of catching Hannibal so could be explained away. This? Willingly marking Chilton to be targeted by Red Dragon all the while pretty much going on about it as if you are %1000 sure Dragon will come after you and having FBI focus on your safety? Will had the SWAT team and poor Chilton apparently had 2 "even more incompetent than your usual incompetent FBI agent" agents to protect him? Were they even real agents or just some bodyguards? That means Will marking Chilton to be attacked by the Dragon had nothing to do with catching the Dragon. It was done out of curiosity, and I guess because like Hannibal and Dragon, he just finds Chilton offensive too so part of him just wanted him dead. (I have also seen some note that this happened after Will's "Is Hannibal in love with me?" talk with Bedelia and is rather like S2 where Hannibal and Will would be "flirting" with one another through murders and body totems they left behind... It is an interesting way to look at it...)

 

Chilton is one of the few people in this show who hasn't killed anyone and lacks the potential to kill. His worst action may just be brainwashing Gideon into thinking he was the Chesapeake Ripper, but he didn't turn Gideon into a serial killer, Gideon had already murdered his wife and her family before that, which was the reason he was locked up. Frederick is petty, sleazy, willing to do just about anything for fame etc. but just the fact that he doesn't have it in him to murder anyone makes him more innocent than others in this show where even Alana and Margot are murderers, at the end of the day... He certainly didn't deserve this at all. And really, he was only trying to help the FBI catch a serial killer. And after everything, his lips bitten and torn out, his entire body burned, pretty much at death's door, knowing full well it Will who set him up & FBI once against screwed up in protecting him, they just go into his room asking for information on Red Dragon and he gives it to them... He is still trying to help. I would probably be ordering the whole lot of them out of my room and not waste any energy to talk to them. That hospital scene made me sad, as I kept thinking back on Chilton's visit to Will, Alana etc and how he was at least nice enough to bring flowers... and seriously, as annoying as Chilton can get, he is not that wrong in his observations and warnings. He is not "the idiot" they would like to print him as... The way they keep treating him makes them come off like high school mean girls - he is just not cool enough to hang out with the popular guys and should know his place or will be made to pay, apparently... And really, of all the people to blame on what happened to Chilton, I'd say Hannibal comes last. Jack and Will came up with the "anger the Dragon to make him strike" plan. Alana suggested they include Chilton in it. Will put the target on his back. And even the "burning" thing, I'd say it was poor Chilton's own "I hope I am not burned" cries that gave the Dragon the idea to burn him. And the "wheelchair" part was him drawing inspiration from Will's earlier work. No where in this does Hannibal really come into play. Stop hiding behind Hannibal and own up to your own screw-ups, people!

 

I think Hannibal's comment to Alana about putting Will in moral dignity pants was accurate.  Will - more than anyone - knows that Chilton is not a killer.  Even when under extreme duress, being chased by the FBI and in fear of his life, he didn't have it in him to pull the trigger on Will.  For Will to knowingly offer him up to Dolarhyde - which he admits he did - is abhorrent.

 

I stand with you. On the incredibly slim chance Frederick would be alive, let alone able to talk, he'd be in the burn unit, not a rando bathtub while Jack and Will wander in ungowned, unmasked, to drain the last of his misspent energy with questions about hey, that Dragon's pretty fucked up, did you see anybody else there? You know, the kind we might care about rescuing? Not like you? No hospital-containing-a-horribly-burned -victim scene's pissed me off that much since The Dark Knight.

 

Poor Frederick. You know when Will decided to set him up? When they're doing that hilarious tag team interview and Chilton says "This is a child of nightmare." And he's right, and you can see Will realize it. He can forgive Frederick Chilton a lot of things, but not being right. That's HIS thing. 

 

I think what was notable about that moment, too, was that everyone else in that room was only thinking about how to lure Dolarhyde out, like an animal to be trapped.  What Frederick said humanised him.  Dolarhyde is a broken and damaged man, and this was probably caused by a horrendous childhood. His observation demonstrated empathy and compassion - which Will thought was 'his thing' - just like being right is 'his thing' - and it shamed him.  Not enough, imo, but it shamed him.

 

It is getting harder to imagine a heroic ending for Will. If they are in the Inferno, is Purgatory next?

I do like that part of Will planned on being the bait and he knew the Dragon aims for the head. But yeah, putting his hand on Frederick was such an unnatural choice for him, it had to be deliberate. A set up. They were all complicit but Will the most. They didn't need Frederick. The Red Dragon knew it was a trap. In retrospect, this is one of the saddest eps, as bad as Beverley dying. While I was relieved it wasn't Freddie, Chilton didn't deserve any of it.

 

I found it pretty upsetting.  Chilton might be sleazy and self-serving, but he's generally been presented as ridiculous - comic relief.  While everyone else has become progressively darker, he stays pretty harmless.  Chilton is endearing.  To see that level of violence and fear meted out on him was really jarring.  I found it really off-putting, to be honest.

 

For me, Will has a really long road to travel back to become anything like heroic.  Or even likable, at this point.  If I compare s3 Will with s1 Will - the character is almost unrecognisable.  You could argue that's due to his experience with Hannibal - but I'm finding him heavily dislikeable now.

 

So I rewatched this with my husband and I've finally figured out why I feel bad for Chilton, and why he was so easy to set up, in all ways --psychologically, morally, physically--it's because Chilton is the only sincere character.

 

Every single person he interacts with during the setup has this moment of "Oh, man, I'm almost starting to feel bad now." Hannibal can't believe that Chilton really can't grasp that he doesn't see Chilton as a peer or an assistant ("A nemesis? *smirk* No.") Alana, sitting in on the interview, actually almost squirms at the ease at which he throws himself into the spotlight. Freddie keeps giving "Really?...okay" glances at Will as he does everything but physically work the jaw, and Will himself watches himself putting his hand on Frederick's shoulder. All of them watching, realizing that Frederick Chilton is seeing this as a triumph, of his peers finally acknowledging that they need his expertise and vast knowledge of the criminal mind. Almost starting to feel bad now, like luring a puppy into a burlap sack with a handful of treats. Too easy, fish in a barrel, candy from a baby...there's no cliche you could look up that doesn't have Frederick Chilton beaming at you in oily satisfaction.

 

They all get called on it later, with Will and Alana having the grace to at least acknowledge that they had less of a problem tying the pork chop around his neck then they know they should have. They're the "good" guys, after all. (Jack, as God, accepts his responsibility without an eyeblink of emotion and moves on, of course.) Because they don't like him. They've got vast and myriad reasons not to, of course--Frederick Chilton is a greasy little sneakbastard whose vainglorious motives and shady psychiatric practices were both criminal and immoral. But how does that make him different then anybody else in this little cabal? Chilton at least, if strapped to a lie detector, would pass with flying colors if asked about his motives and morals. Because he's sincere, as sincere as Linus waiting for the Great Pumpkin on Halloween. Too bad that pumpkin patch was full of snails.

 

Yes!  They're moral hypocrites, every last one of them - and I'm finding it increasingly hard to give a damn about them.  At least Hannibal is honest.  

 

Frederick is incredulous with Hannibal because like you say - he is sincere, and he can't quite grasp the level of sheer nastiness Hannibal is capable of.  Why would he turn on him after Frederick fulfilled his end of the deal?  He simply can't wrap his head around that logic.  Likewise - the thought that Alana, Will and Jack might actually not care very much about whether Dolarhyde goes after him doesn't cross his mind, because who would be so dreadful as to risk someone's safety like that?

 

I think Chilton is also sympathetic in that he has often acted as the audience proxy.  When he find Gideon's body in S2, we look through Chilton's eyes as he passes out on the floor, watching Hannibal open the door to the FBI guys.  He's the one who eventually believed Will when he was incacerated - realised Hannibal was up to no good - putting him in the same position as the viewer at that point, too.  He's also more relatable than the other characters.  By and large, the audience isn't likely to be made up of genius psychiatrists, serial killers, unique empaths, coldly pragmatic FBI chiefs.  However, I'm sure we've all managed to be petty, jealous, ridiculous, vain, foolish and needy at various points in our lives.  There's a humanity to Chilton that our other main characters lack - especially this season, where they've become increasingly stylised and unnatural.

 

Other random observations:

 

1. Bedelia and Will's pause-ridden conversations are stretching incredulity.  It's nice to hear lines from the book if they can be worked in effectively, but sometimes they simply don't work.  Couple that with Bedelia's whispery, stilted delivery and wow - they seriously don't work.
2. 'Is Hannibal in love with me?'  Thought you were meant to be empathic, Will? Jeezy Creezy.  And is Bedelia jealous?  That's one screwed up room full of people right there.
3. Likewise, the degree to which Dolarhyde is stylised is starting to aggravate me.  Yes - his behaviour is supposed to be bizarre, but it has to be balanced with some attempts at normality (even though they are severely socially awkward).  The guttural utterances and flexing are a bit too much.  I sympathised to an extent with both film versions of Dolarhyde.  I'm keenly anticipating this one getting shot.
4. No Molly and Walter.  It was always going to be difficult to 'sell' these character given the degree of build-up Will and Hannibal's relationship has had.  For my money - we'd have had to see more of them to even begin to do that.  At the moment, while the characters seemed individually pleasant, I don't really feel any emotional investment in them.
5. Does Jack answer to anyone at this point?  

 

Overall - Chilton was done wrong, and I hate everyone else.

 

I've just realised that sounded like I hate the show - and I don't - but that episode just pressed too many buttons.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Fen

[Captanne]

Fen

 

What Frederick said humanised him.  He is a broken and damaged man, and this was probably caused by a horrendous childhood.  It demonstrated empathy and compassion - which Will thought was 'his thing' - just like being right - and it shamed him.

 

This, I think, is actually the most powerful moment from Manhunter and is said by Will Graham.  It's the scene that captivated me.  Will and Jack Crawford are in Will's hotel room.  They are under pressure because the full moon is coming.  Will is watching the VHS tape of the Jacobi family and the Leeds family wondering what the connection is.  He suddenly has a revelation and starts talking out loud to himself as if he was talking to "my man".  

 

Jack, over his shoulder, is horrified to see how Will really operates.  He says, "You feel sorry for this guy!?"  And Will replies, "I feel sorry for the child he was.  Now?  he's a sick fuck who needs to be wiped off the face of the Earth."

 

That was fucking WONDERFUL and the actors knocked it out of the park.

 

ETA for grammar and punctuation.

 

EETA:  I don't hate the show.  There are parts I would like to not have had to sit through and I thought wasted time and effort.  Other parts, I thought were highly laudable.  (Quick specific examples.  For Series One and Two I only have two issues -- "murder of the week" was just too many to be credible; and, too much emphasis on Abigail.  For Series Three?  OMG, where do I start?  Bedelia was universally awful; time wasted in Hannibalvania and on Chiyoh who was ill-defined and ultimately pointless; the whole Florence experience was drawn out too long; turning Will into Wile E. Coyote was a HUGE mistake.  I'm sure I'll think of more but that's enough.  I didn't want to make a blanket "imo" without specific examples.)

Edited August 27, 2015 by Captanne

[Crossbow]

I'm unintentionally reading the book at about the same rate as the show is airing. I just got to this part. Will put his hand on Freddy shoulder in the book to show that it was a real interview and Freddy wasn't just making it all up. It was an effort to keep the Tooth Fairy focused on Will and NOT Freddy. It didn't work that way in the show because Will and Frederick were both being interviewed, but Will still said he was going for authenticity - trying to make it look less like a set-up.

 

Hannibal is the one who accuses Will of deliberately setting up Freddy, but Will only considers that idea briefly before disregarding it. He knows his petty irritation at Freddy wouldn't override his need to catch the Tooth Fairy. TV Will apparently isn't so sure about that. His apparent guilt over it was the best part of the episode.

[KatWay]

Chilton should be studied as a medical marvel. This is what, the THIRD should-have-been-lethal assault he's survived? HOW is he still alive? Are there any body parts he's NOT missing at this point?

 

Hannibal/Will...yeah, on any other show I would roll my eyes at fanservice like that, but this show has been pretty open about the not-so-subtextual homoerotic undertones since the beginning, so okay, I'll buy it.

[Crossbow]

Isn't Chilton dead?

[Captanne]

KatWay, "how is he still alive"?!  This is a question I asked about Will as he WALKED from Hannibalvania to Florence while recovering from gut surgery and then being tossed off the back of a moving train in winter.  (Not to mention, I'm sure the solo Atlantic Sloop Voyage was exhausting.)

 

ETA:  Crossbow, as far as I know Chilton lives.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Captanne

[Crossbow]

Well, how are any of them alive, come to that. None of them should have made it out of that literal bloodbath at the end of season 2.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Crossbow

[Fen]

Fen

 

 

This, I think, is actually the most powerful moment from Manhunter and is said by Will Graham.  It's the scene that captivated me.  Will and Jack Crawford are in Will's hotel room.  They are under pressure because the full moon is coming.  Will is watching the VHS tape of the Jacobi family and the Leeds family wondering what the connection is.  He suddenly has a revelation and starts talking out loud to himself as if he was talking to "my man".  

 

Jack, over his shoulder, is horrified to see how Will really operates.  He says, "You feel sorry for this guy!?"  And Will replies, "I feel sorry for the child he was.  Now?  he's a sick fuck who needs to be wiped off the face of the Earth."

 

That was fucking WONDERFUL and the actors knocked it out of the park.

 

ETA for grammar and punctuation.

 

EETA:  I don't hate the show.  There are parts I would like to not have had to sit through and I thought wasted time and effort.  Other parts, I thought were highly laudable.  (Quick specific examples.  For Series One and Two I only have two issues -- "murder of the week" was just too many to be credible; and, too much emphasis on Abigail.  For Series Three?  OMG, where do I start?  Bedelia was universally awful; time wasted in Hannibalvania and on Chiyoh who was ill-defined and ultimately pointless; the whole Florence experience was drawn out too long; turning Will into Wile E. Coyote was a HUGE mistake.  I'm sure I'll think of more but that's enough.  I didn't want to make a blanket "imo" without specific examples.)

 

I remember that scene too.  Like you - I found it had real impact.  It's character-defining for Will.  He can empathise and sympathise with the unhappy child, while still recognising that the adult is an intolerable threat.  He's compassionate, but he's practical.

 

I think this ep just had too many of the features I found iffy in season 3.  Characters stylised to the point of bizarreness, and a lot of explanatory material removed in favour of artiness. 

Edited August 27, 2015 by Fen

[venezia54]

Stick a fork in me, Hannibal. I'm done. For two seasons, this show was a masterpiece. What made it for me (besides the exquisite production values) was its mysteriousness. Not knowing what Hannibal really was, his ambiguous relationship with Will, the mental chess games, the fact that it didn't spell everything out for viewers, but respected us enough to pick up its symbolic and philosophical themes made it a show like no other. But this season, the writing has left the building. Fuller started working on his new show last year, and it shows. No longer do we get tantalizingly nuanced conversations about good and evil, the nature of love, the mysteries of the human heart. No, now we're getting Fannibal pandering and shipper-speak--Hannibal "in love" with Will? Seriously? And for fuckssake, would someone give Bedelia a cup of coffee? Her zombie monotone is bugging the crap out of me! I find the Red Dragon story boring because it isn't breaking any new ground. What made this show so special was how Fuller diverged from the pop-culture books and movies, and elevated them to a whole new level. But the Red Dragon feels shot-for-shot like it was lifted from the movie. Now, I just fast-forward to the scenes with Mads because he's the God of Acting and uber-dishy. But I feel like Bedelia sounds-- just so very, very bored with it all.

[Captanne]

venezia54

For two seasons, this show was a masterpiece. What made it for me (besides the exquisite production values) was its mysteriousness. Not knowing what Hannibal really was, his ambiguous relationship with Will, the mental chess games, the fact that it didn't spell everything out for viewers, but respected us enough to pick up its symbolic and philosophical themes made it a show like no other. But this season, the writing has left the building. Fuller started working on his new show last year, and it shows. No longer do we get tantalizingly nuanced conversations about good and evil, the nature of love, the mysteries of the human heart. No, now we're getting Fannibal pandering and shipper-speak--Hannibal "in love" with Will? Seriously? And for fuckssake, would someone give Bedelia a cup of coffee? Her zombie monotone is bugging the crap out of me!

 

You are my personal hero.

[wayne67]

I like to think Hannibal doesn't want Will for his body like all the others. He wants him for his unique ability to absorb the thoughts of others through extreme empathy. Will has a heart capable of infinite darkness whereas Hannibal has essentially hit the limit of his particular pathos he plays with people and eats them, that's basically it. Will on the other hand can get into the mental head space of ANYONE (apparently) to place himself in their shoes so well that he starts to think and feel like them to a degree.

 

Hannibal is a true omnivore and chameleon using his intelligence to blend in with his environment and mimic typical human emotions while Will is a sponge that gets a bit dirtier with every dark mind he empathises with. Hannibal would become more with Will by his side which is why I think he's infatuated with him so much. Will is a novelty with unplumbed depths of cruelty. I don't think of it as romantic as all except in the violently co dependent way it's become a sort of all consuming passion.

 

As for why Will keeps coming back, Will has complete acceptance with Hannibal, Hannibal doesn't judge him negatively for the darkness within him nor is he afraid of him, he accepts him and wants the best for him. Unfortunately for Will even if he did run away with Hannibal to enjoy that acceptance eventually Hannibal would eat him because he is a crazy cannibal at the end of the day. During that vacation Hannibal would take him to nice places and feed him the very best of food and recommend great art and books and they'd have lovely chats about the nature of morality and existence.

 

I doubt Will wants to have sex with Hannibal and Hannibal probably doesn't believe in sexuality taboos any more than any other taboos at this point so he might use sex as a tool to 'relax the meat' before consumption. In a way if they did have sex, it would be Hannibal's way to finally possess and despoil the lamb before chopping him into pieces and eating him slowly over the following weeks.

[Captanne]

wayne67 -- agreed.

 

On a meta level, my problem with a homosexual pairing of at least one straight partner is that I (personally) feel utterly NO sexual tension between the two actors.  It's not believable to me.  I don't sense an sexual longing from either of them.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Captanne

[tomorrowgirl]

I totally agree with venezia54.  Today is the first chance that I had to watch the show on my dvr.  Because of the football game, which ended at 10:30, my station only broadcast the last half hour of the show, then went to the local news.  I was a bit lost as to what was happening since I didn't see the first half, and I know I can see the it on Demand, but I really don't care enough to watch it.

Edited August 28, 2015 by tomorrowgirl

[supposebly]

So, I put a chicken in the oven to be roasted before I watched this episode. Of course, I know better than watching DURING the show.

 

Unfortunately, this time, I can't even eat the chicken after it. Curse you, Hannibal and your glee in slurping that lip!

 

Jack and Will discussing that the tooth fairy shoots the head more often than the body, implying the bulletproof vest might not be good enough.

Me: You might want to start wearing a helmet!

 

Little did I know that it was pointless.

I did pick up at the oddity of Will putting his hand on Chilton's shoulder. I kept wondering why he would do that.

 

Poor Chilton. I agree with the assessment that he is probably the most honest character on the show. No one takes him seriously except he himself which basically makes him the perfect victim. No one looks good after all this.

 

I think Will talks to Bedelia out of a more or less conscious need to find out from someone who seems to have gotten away. After this one, he might rethink that. If or when Hannibal gets out, she is on the list. I don't think he's there for therapy.

 

I'm not sure Bedelia is in love with Hannibal, more like she is incapable of not wanting to be close to him. Being somewhat of an expert on Hannibal also enabled her to stay alive. For now.

 

Will on the other hand got away because Hannibal let him. For a while.

 

I don't think Hannibal would ever want to eat Will. He doesn't eat people he respects or loves.

 

What I love about this show is that the characters' motivations and actions are never just one or the other, all of it is tinged with something else.

 

When Bedelia said that there was a little bit of intent in Will's actions towards Chilton, he couldn't deny it but it wasn't his main intent. Just some of it. I like how she pulls that out of him. Otherwise, Will might never have realized or at least admitted it. He is often clear about people's motives but it often seems his own are not clear to him.

 

As to Hannibal being in love with Will, well duh! He let himself be captured after Will broke up with him. I do think that that doesn't mean it's exactly sexual.

The real question that Bedelia has not asked: Is Will in love with Hannibal! And Will should ask himself and stop making Jack the scapegoat for his own inability to stay close to Hannibal. All he needed was one trigger. One would think the longer time passes, the easier it would be to resist but apparently, it didn't take all that much to ask for Hannibal's help.

 

As with other relationships that are based on one person being in control, it still requires for the other to let that person be in control. Will allows Hannibal and to an extent Jack serve as excuses for his actions towards them.

He always could have told Jack no. He didn't and more or less couldn't wait to talk to Hannibal again. While Hannibal is a master at entangling people in his webs, part of his power is people coming up with excuses why they stay entangled. Alana wants to make sure Hannibal stays locked up while she enjoys the measure of control she thinks she has over him as revenge for the amount of control he had over her.

Will missing the friendship and closeness he had with Hannibal he had with no one else before. Bedelia, caught by her own actions towards her patient, her fascination and somewhat obsession with Hannibal that he fueled since forever.

 

I think Jack sees himself free, I wonder if that will be his downfall.

 

I am wondering why Will made Chilton a target. Pure spite doesn't feel right. More like, because he could?

Edited August 29, 2015 by supposebly

[Captanne]

Posted in wrong thread.  Sorry.  Meant for the Finale thread.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Captanne

[Brattinella]

I can't wait!  And it is SO HARD not to peek at the other thread!  But I'm being good.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Poor Chilton, that is all.

[Brattinella]

Oh, NBC, we are SO DONE after Hannibal.  You just HAD to put a flashing preview for some new show in the first five minutes of Hannibal!  You are some bastiches!

[John Potts]

DeadlyEuphoric And really, he was only trying to help the FBI catch a serial killer. And after everything, his lips bitten and torn out, his entire body burned, pretty much at death's door, knowing full well it Will who set him up & FBI once against screwed up in protecting him, they just go into his room asking for information on Red Dragon and he gives it to them... He is still trying to help.

 

 

Sorry, I don't get this "He was set up". I mean, OK, maybe Will acted deliberately, but it's not as if he didn't know what he was doing was insanely dangerous - the whole point was to draw out the Red Dragon. Maybe everyone thought Will would be the main target, but Chilton had to know he'd be in the crosshairs (Alanna knew well enough to leave well alone). Now nobody deserves what happened to Frederick, but he had to know he was sticking his hand into a meat grinder.

 

Captanne  If I were Chilton I would have been SO tempted to say, "Come ON, Dragon, really?  You've got me glued to a chair and I have to listen to your high school break up trauma?"

 

 

I have to admire your sang froid if you could be snarky to a guy who abducts you, glues you naked to a wheelchair and starts showing you murder slides, because I'd be too busy pissing myself (though I admit it would have been funny). Though on the subject of funny, I had to laugh at Dolarhyde's "I'll get you a blanket!" because, just because you're going to set somebody on fire doesn't mean you want them to be uncomfortable!

 

penguinnj When I realized Jack and Will were at the hospital my reaction was literally "On no way in hell is Chilton still alive."  and I stand by that.

 

 

With my Degree in TV medicine (I've got one in TV Law, too!) I can tell you that his long term survival rate is poor (approaching 0%) but he might survive for a while like that in the short term (though he'd be so doped up, if not actually unconscious, that he'd be unlikely to be at all coherent). The human body is remarkably resilient.

 

Helena Dax And when we saw Hannibal eating Chilton's lip, like a naughty kid eating a candy.

 

 

That was REAL? I can swallow (heh!) the complete lack of regular police but did they really just watch as Hannibal ate evidence? Maybe they can't stop Hannibal's mail, but can't they read it first? So I could send a mass murderer a note on "How to build a bomb using everyday items found in a jail cell" and they'd have to let it through?

 

DeadlyEuphoric When Chilton rolled that magazine article and dropped it into Hannibal's cell, I was sure that Hannibal would somehow use it to escape.

 

Me too! In Silence of the Lambs, he used a pen and paperclip to escape - Dr C might as well of handed Hannibal the keys!

 

thuganomics85  All those dinner parties, smelling you, leering at you, feeding the dogs, stabbing you, almost cutting your brains out, etc. Totally signs that he wants to take the relationship to the next level!

Not what I'd call a healthy relationship though!

[supposebly]

 

That was REAL? I can swallow (heh!) the complete lack of regular police but did they really just watch as Hannibal ate evidence?

 

I actually didn't think it was real, just what Hannibal wanted to do. It was not always easy for me to determine what was real and what was Hannibal's mind place/imagination/desires, so I might be wrong about it.

Edited August 30, 2015 by supposebly

[DeadlyEuphoric]

Sorry, I don't get this "He was set up". I mean, OK, maybe Will acted deliberately, but it's not as if he didn't know what he was doing was insanely dangerous - the whole point was to draw out the Red Dragon. Maybe everyone thought Will would be the main target, but Chilton had to know he'd be in the crosshairs (Alanna knew well enough to leave well alone). Now nobody deserves what happened to Frederick, but he had to know he was sticking his hand into a meat grinder.

 

That was REAL? I can swallow (heh!) the complete lack of regular police but did they really just watch as Hannibal ate evidence? Maybe they can't stop Hannibal's mail, but can't they read it first? So I could send a mass murderer a note on "How to build a bomb using everyday items found in a jail cell" and they'd have to let it through?

 

 

Chilton would know he is putting himself in a dangerous situation by helping FBI rile the Dragon with an interview, but he couldn't know Will would specifically mark him as a target for the Dragon by calling him to the picture and putting his hand on him for it - thus marking him as the pet, and Dragon kills the pets first. (and it wouldn't occur to him in that moment because he trusts Will, they are supposed to be on the same side). That is why he and Bedelia feel that Will set him up, and Will's talkwith Bedelia seems to confirm this too. He did what he did out of curiousity of what the Dragon would do, meaning he knew what he was doing, that he was signaling Chilton out for the Dragon.

 

As for the mail, apparently the law forbids them from reading his mail (which makes sense), they do run it through X-ray and stuff to check that nothing dangerous is in there, but he is entitled to his mail.

 

 

 

I actually didn't think it was real, just what Hannibal wanted to do. It was not always easy for me to determine what was real and what was Hannibal's mind place/imagination/desires, so I might be wrong about it.

 

It is real. Between Hannibal's glee, Alana's disgusted look and Jack asking him where the other part of the lip is and Hannibal replying the remaining part can tell him exactly what the other part would, it is rather certain that he ate one of them lips up before they could stop him.

[supposebly]

 

Jack asking him where the other part of the lip is and Hannibal replying the remaining part can tell him exactly what the other part would

Ok, that one helps me. Everything else could be in Hannibal's mind. Thanks!

[Crossbow]

Oh, NBC, we are SO DONE after Hannibal.  You just HAD to put a flashing preview for some new show in the first five minutes of Hannibal!  You are some bastiches!

 

That was SO OBNOXIOUS. And that show looks really dumb.

[Crossbow]

I like to think Hannibal doesn't want Will for his body like all the others. He wants him for his unique ability to absorb the thoughts of others through extreme empathy. Will has a heart

I doubt Will wants to have sex with Hannibal and Hannibal probably doesn't believe in sexuality taboos any more than any other taboos at this point so he might use sex as a tool to 'relax the meat' before consumption. In a way if they did have sex, it would be Hannibal's way to finally possess and despoil the lamb before chopping him into pieces and eating him slowly over the following weeks.

 

In the books they make it clear that Hannibal is straight, but Fuller said that in this version, "Hannibal is a very broadly spectrumed human being/fallen angel, who probably is capable and interested in everything humanity has to offer." In another interview he said Hannibal could eroticize anything, but I can't find that link.