Captain America: Civil War (2016)

[Danny Franks]

9 hours ago, scriggle said:

I really wish we got at true follow-up to Cap2. Steve and Sam with the help of Natasha and possibly Sharon tracking down Bucky with Zemo and the other Winter Soldiers as the big bad. The bones of it are still there in Civil War. I just feel that Cap's final solo movie got highjacked by Tony's manpain.

That's exactly what I was feeling as the 'follow the leader' chase to Siberia began. 

This should not have been 'Avengers fight, isn't it awesome?!' It should have been a sequel to the 70s styled thriller that was The Winter Soldier . They even nodded to the better movie it could have been with Tony calling Bucky 'Manchurian Candidate'.

Actually focusing the plot on Bucky's past crimes, having Steve and Bucky deal with the things that he's done, having Sam and Natasha as their support system, and giving Sharon a larger role. All of that would have made for a movie that didn't feel just like a copy-paste CGI smash-em-up that had no weight to it at all.

Make Zemo an actual worthy villain, give him some ties to power that are more than 'I read it on the internet ', for crying out loud! Hell, use the comic book lineage to make him the descendent of Hydra operatives who wants to reclaim the project that the Soviet Union stole and use it for his own personal gain. Don't just give him a ridiculously convoluted, nonsensical plan to make Cap and Iron Man punch each other (which also handily ties in with the UN's Accord that Tony supports and Cap disagrees with, and already set them at odds without Zemo's knowledge or influence).

[Lilacgirl128]

Quote

The cars being dropped on Tony, remember she and Clint set that up, and both of them would know that Tony's armor could more than handle it.  They weren't trying to hurt him, they were trying to pin him down so Cap and Bucky could get to the Quinjet.

So Wanda and Clint decided to willfully destroy other peoples property however they saw fit. Scott too, with the plane and the gas truck. Even Steve with the walkway or whatever he dropped on Peter. Team Cap sure didn't have respect for private property. Vision seemed to be the only on Team Iron Man who did any damage and that occurred as a last resort to stop the fugitive from getting away. I can't remember if Tony just disabled the helicopter at first or if he blew it up, but with that amount of damage and Tony it isn't like he wouldn't be fully prepared to pay for damages he caused. Were Clint, Wanda, Scott, or Steve even thinking about the damage they were causing. Or did they think because they had a righteous cause they didn't have to worry about that.

[Wynterwolf]

6 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

The first thing Tony did in Avengers was hack the SHIELD systems to see what Fury was really up to. Hydra agents in the government were out to get the Iron Man armor from him in IM3. They were trying to clear out Hydra at the start of AoU, decrypting those files could have been very helpful in that. I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't have been all over those files the second Natasha put them on the web.

I can see Tony pouring over the tech files, but he didn't know his parents had been murdered at that point, so without a question to answer in his mind about that, I don't think he would have spent any of that time looking at old assassination files.  

[Danny Franks]

31 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

I can see Tony pouring over the tech files, but he didn't know his parents had been murdered at that point, so without a question to answer in his mind about that, I don't think he would have spent any of that time looking at old assassination files.  

 

The same guy who, as soon as he got onto the SHIELD Helicarrier, planted a bug that gave him access to "every dirty secret SHIELD has" (although, obviously not all of them, because SHIELD seems to have no end of secrets)? He'd have set up an algorithm to download and decrypt ever kilobyte of data that was released, and then peruse it all at his leisure.

[Wynterwolf]

Another random observation from spending the weekend in the Marvel universe:  Steve essentially gave up being Captain America three times for Bucky.  He was already on the ropes at the beginning of Winter Soldier, but Bucky seems to be the catalyst that pushes him over the edge, and if it's a choice between the shield and Bucky, Bucky wins every time.  I also love how often they toss that shield back and forth between them, from all the way back at the beginning.  

[Dandesun]

3 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

Another random observation from spending the weekend in the Marvel universe:  Steve essentially gave up being Captain America three times for Bucky.  He was already on the ropes at the beginning of Winter Soldier, but Bucky seems to be the catalyst that pushes him over the edge, and if it's a choice between the shield and Bucky, Bucky wins every time.  I also love how often they toss that shield back and forth between them, from all the way back at the beginning.  

Yeah, in the MCU it's pretty evident that Bucky is the most important person to Steve. It's an interesting thread to follow throughout the Cap movies and it's quite, quite different in the comics where Steve and Bucky didn't even know each other until Steve went through the Super Soldier. I mean, in the comics, Steve's longest lasting canon relationships are Tony, Thor and Sharon... and then probably the rest of the Avengers. Here... it's Bucky. It's all Bucky.

Now, one can argue the specifics of their feelings for each other but I would say that canonically in the MCU there is no one Steve loves more than Bucky. I would say the same goes for Bucky regarding Steve. When you've got Sebastian Stan saying that the only reason that Bucky hasn't put a bullet in his brain is because he knows it would cause Steve un-ending pain... that's love. What kind of love is up for debate but it IS love.

The Russo-Cap movies seem to be about pitting Cap against himself in a lot of ways. How easy things seemed in the halcyon days of The First Avenger! The WInter Soldier changed all of that. When Nick Fury was arguing for holding into SHIELD, Steve was the one saying 'No. It has to all come down.' Nick was definitely coming from a more real world stance... an intelligence operation the scale of SHIELD has too much information to burn it to the ground but Steve wasn't wrong. When Peggy Carter and Howard Stark are acknowledged as the heads/co-founders of SHIELD but Hydra managed to infiltrate completely all the same... that's a huge problem.

Steve had issues with the Sokovia Accords before Bucky got involved. Hell, Sam voiced his opinion (being against the accords) before Steve even said anything. And there are a LOT of issues about the Accords which we've gone to at length here but instead of digging into that, they basically had Steve and Tony swing to extremes for all sorts of reasons.

Tony, as I've said, is likely still operating under raging PTSD which exacerbates his feelings of guilt and he's probably also completely burnt out from trying to take on all the responsibility after living the majority of his life completely responsibility free. Tony saying the words 'We need to be put in check... whatever form that takes, I'm game.' Those are seriously, seriously troubling words and they strike me as a guy who is just mentally exhausted from trying to fix the world after he got dropped right in the middle of how ugly it actually was. At this point, Tony's all 'Jesus take the wheel... or General Ross, that's fine too. Whatevs. Can someone else just drive for awhile because people have been blaming me for shit since my first movie and I'm tired and I need a god-damn nap!'

Steve's issues with the Accords are one thing but it's been shown repeatedly that he loses all rationality when it comes to Bucky. 'Bucky's unit got captured behind enemy lines? I'm going to take this motorcycle and I am going to go get him! Oh, you have a plane? Sure, that works... thanks for the ride.' 'This mystical, mysterious ghost assassin is Bucky?! Okay, after I save a million people from dying in one blast... I'm dropping my shield and I'm letting him kick the shit out of me because that's my Bucky and I won't fight him!' 'Bucky bombed a UN meeting? I gotta go and find out for myself because I'm not buying that the guy who saved my life after almost killing me would just do that. And also... BUCKY!!'

And the movie ends with Tony being all 'Ross was the worst. driver. ever! And I still need a god-damned nap!' and Steve all 'Can I just stay here in your beautiful country and watch Bucky while he sleeps? I'll just sit here and draw him... I won't take up too much room... I do eat a lot, though. Super-Metabolism. Sorry.'

At some point, I hope they acknowledge that the Accords are deeply flawed and that trying to push them through that quickly without recognizing the very real problems of pointing out incidents like New York or Washington would have ended infinitely worse and the 'collateral damage' they were talking about would have looked more like a gaping hole where New York used to be or a significant portion of the US government dead and only Hydra left. Why no one looked at Ross in the midst of all of this and wondered whether or not he was Hydra is beyond me.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Dandesun

[Wynterwolf]

LOL, perfect summation Dandesun!

ETA: Someone told me today that this movie (and by extension, all the Cap movies) is to me what Titanic is to her, and yeah... that's a pretty accurate comparison.  

Edited May 23, 2016 by Wynterwolf
additional context

[scriggle]

4 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

I can see Tony pouring over the tech files, but he didn't know his parents had been murdered at that point, so without a question to answer in his mind about that, I don't think he would have spent any of that time looking at old assassination files.  

 

3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

 

The same guy who, as soon as he got onto the SHIELD Helicarrier, planted a bug that gave him access to "every dirty secret SHIELD has" (although, obviously not all of them, because SHIELD seems to have no end of secrets)? He'd have set up an algorithm to download and decrypt ever kilobyte of data that was released, and then peruse it all at his leisure.

Tony had JARVIS doing the decrypting in The Avengers. I would think a file about a HYDRA operation to get super soldier serum on the date of his parents death would capture his attention. 

[Wynterwolf]

2 minutes ago, scriggle said:

Tony had JARVIS doing the decrypting in The Avengers. I would think a file about a HYDRA operation to get super soldier serum on the date of his parents death would capture his attention. 

Based on what we saw though, it looked like most of the Winter Soldier stuff was on non-electronic, or very old-school media, so it might not have been in the mammoth mountain of data that Nat released.  

[Perfect Xero]

I think the movie should have played things differently with Ross. Have T'Chaka be the one taking the lead and bringing the Accords to the Avengers trying to get them on board, then after the UN bombing have Ross be the one who takes over. Then they could reference Ross's history with Banner and create paranoia that he might be the one behind the bombing so he could seize control.

4 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

I can see Tony pouring over the tech files, but he didn't know his parents had been murdered at that point, so without a question to answer in his mind about that, I don't think he would have spent any of that time looking at old assassination files.  

I feel like the first thing Tony would do would be to search the files (or have Jarvis search the files) for any reference to his name, his company, his tech, his family, Stane, ect ... I would think that concern 1 with him would be that Hydra had people inside his company or had gotten their hands on his tech. Just searching for that would have brought up all sorts of revelations about Howard (given that he founded SHIELD) that would have caused him to dig deeper and question the official story on Howard's death.

[scriggle]

39 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

<snip>

Steve's issues with the Accords are one thing but it's been shown repeatedly that he loses all rationality when it comes to Bucky. 'Bucky's unit got captured behind enemy lines? I'm going to take this motorcycle and I am going to go get him! Oh, you have a plane? Sure, that works... thanks for the ride.' 'This mystical, mysterious ghost assassin is Bucky?! Okay, after I save a million people from dying in one blast... I'm dropping my shield and I'm letting him kick the shit out of me because that's my Bucky and I won't fight him!' 'Bucky bombed a UN meeting? I gotta go and find out for myself because I'm not buying that the guy who saved my life after almost killing me would just do that. And also... BUCKY!!'

</snip>

That is true if Cap1.  And as you say in Cap2, Steve completes his mission before dropping his shield.

In Cap3, after the bombing he want to go after Bucky to bring him in as he's is the only one likely to survive the encounter.  Then he finds out from Sharon that the authorities aren't planning on bringing capturing him, the orders are shoot to kill. Then, when Bucky is captured, Steve gets laughed at when he asks about Bucky getting a lawyer. I think Steve would go to bat for anybody under those circumstances.  It becomes about the powerful picking on the powerless, about justice. 

11 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

Based on what we saw though, it looked like most of the Winter Soldier stuff was on non-electronic, or very old-school media, so it might not have been in the mammoth mountain of data that Nat released.  

Zemo explicitly states he got his lead to the Russian handler by decrypting those files.  He keeps asking the Russian specifically about the operation that took place on that date. 

Edited May 23, 2016 by scriggle
because i think faster than I can type

[Wynterwolf]

3 minutes ago, scriggle said:

Zemo explicitly states he got his lead to the Russian handler by decrypting those files.  He keeps asking the Russian specifically about the operation that took place on that date. 

Right, but he kept asking because he didn't have the details, so that implied that the details weren't in the encrypted file.  But this is one place where I wish the MCU had more tie-in media, this would be a good item for them to hash out more than they could during the movie.  

[Dandesun]

14 minutes ago, scriggle said:

That is true if Cap1.  And as you say, Steve completes his mission before dropping his shield.

In Cap3, after the bombing he want to go after Bucky to bring him in as he's is the only one likely to survive the encounter.  Then he finds out from Sharon that the authorities aren't planning on bringing capturing him, the orders are shoot to kill. Then, when Bucky is captured, Steve gets laughed at when he asks about Bucky getting a lawyer. I think Steve would go to bat for anybody under those circumstances.  It becomes about the powerful picking on the powerless, about justice. 

Or, "I don't like bullies. I don't care where they're from."

I was actually going to point out that Steve would bring Bucky in if he were guilty. I mean, it would break his heart but he'd have done it but I kind of got carried away with my breakdowns of it all and lost the plot. Alas. And while I agree that Steve would go to bat for almost anyone that had a shoot to kill order and then denied legal council by an international panel simply because that's easier, I've also said that it being Bucky add so much weight to it all. Because, you know, BUCKY!

Speaking of, I do wonder just how much he actually remembers. He says that he remembers all of those he killed but I don't know if that's true. When he came back to himself after Zemo triggered him he seemed to have absolutely no idea of what happened. "What did I do?" Also, the backpack that he had stashed under the floorboards and very specifically took with him is apparently filled with notebooks that he's been writing his scattered memories in, in case he loses said memories again. I think Bucky's poor, abused, swiss-cheese of a brain is far less likely to remember everything than one part of the movie suggested. I mean, in Winter Soldier he didn't know he was Bucky, he didn't know who Steve was... until he was out of cryo enough (and had Steve there to trigger his own memories) to start getting filtered memories back.

Bucky's just so fucked up... is it any wonder that Steve is so adamantly protective of him?

6 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

14 minutes ago, scriggle said:

Zemo explicitly states he got his lead to the Russian handler by decrypting those files.  He keeps asking the Russian specifically about the operation that took place on that date. 

Right, but he kept asking because he didn't have the details, so that implied that the details weren't in the encrypted file.  But this is one place where I wish the MCU had more tie-in media, this would be a good item for them to hash out more than they could during the movie.

I know it's been mentioned here before but if all Zemo was able to get out of the released Hydra files was the date it happened... that would have been a gigantic red flag for Tony at the very least.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Dandesun

[scriggle]

3 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

Right, but he kept asking because he didn't have the details, so that implied that the details weren't in the encrypted file.  But this is one place where I wish the MCU had more tie-in media, this would be a good item for them to hash out more than they could during the movie.  

Yeah, I agree.  But at least Tony would've known HYDRA was up to something hinky on the date his parents died.  There was apparently enough info in the files to lead to the Russian.  If  he had decrypted the files, maybe the Avengers would've have found the Russian first.  Of course, then we'd have no movie.....

[Wynterwolf]

1 minute ago, Dandesun said:

Speaking of, I do wonder just how much he actually remembers. He says that he remembers all of those he killed but I don't know if that's true. When he came back to himself after Zemo triggered him he seemed to have absolutely no idea of what happened. "What did I do?" Also, the backpack that he had stashed under the floorboards and very specifically took with him is apparently filled with notebooks that he's been writing his scattered memories in, in case he loses said memories again. I think Bucky's poor, abused, swiss-cheese of a brain is far less likely to remember everything than one part of the movie suggested. I mean, in Winter Soldier he didn't know he was Bucky, he didn't know who Steve was... until he was out of cryo enough (and had Steve there to trigger his own memories) to start getting filtered memories back.

I was thinking about this too, he started to remember what happened after Steve asked him to think... like he needed to concentrate to access it after transitioning out of WS-mode.  But when he was with Hydra, he was rarely out of WS-mode, so the memories were just stored.  But he's spent 2 years out of the freezer, so his memory has had time to start repairing itself.  I could see the mission memories being far more accessible than the older memories they continually tried to wipe.     

[Wynterwolf]

10 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

I know it's been mentioned here before but if all Zemo was able to get out of the released Hydra files was the date it happened... that would have been a gigantic red flag for Tony at the very least.

 

8 minutes ago, scriggle said:

But at least Tony would've known HYDRA was up to something hinky on the date his parents died.

Yeah, I get what you're saying... it's just not that big of a leap for me that it could have been overlooked for a variety of possible reasons. But the bottom line was that it was missed by Tony, et. al.  It's not a nit that bothers me, because I can think of several plausible (to me) explanations.  

[Perfect Xero]

I think that the idea was that Zemo using the code on him and getting the mission report had  managed to unlock all his memories. It's obviously different than the method Hydra is shown using to make him compliant in CA2, which was basically just hitting the reset button by shocking his brain.

[Dandesun]

2 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

I think that the idea was that Zemo using the code on him and getting the mission report had  managed to unlock all his memories. It's obviously different than the method Hydra is shown using to make him compliant in CA2, which was basically just hitting the reset button by shocking his brain.

Oh, that's an interesting idea. I mean, he still didn't remember what he'd done when he came out of compliance mode and had to think about it but... the methods of getting him to comply were very different.

Very interesting...

[stealinghome]

Quote

At some point, I hope they acknowledge that the Accords are deeply flawed and that trying to push them through that quickly without recognizing the very real problems of pointing out incidents like New York or Washington would have ended infinitely worse and the 'collateral damage' they were talking about would have looked more like a gaping hole where New York used to be or a significant portion of the US government dead and only Hydra left. Why no one looked at Ross in the midst of all of this and wondered whether or not he was Hydra is beyond me.

Given the events of the Hulk movie that I believe is considered MCU canon, I don't understand why anyone looked at Ross and thought he was the right person to be overseeing/the face of the Accords to the Avengers!

[Bruinsfan]

1 hour ago, scriggle said:

Zemo explicitly states he got his lead to the Russian handler by decrypting those files.  He keeps asking the Russian specifically about the operation that took place on that date. 

That does bring up the question of how exactly Zemo knew there would be something from that particular date incriminating enough to drive a wedge between the Avengers. He had to know or at least suspect that (1) Stark's parents were murdered by HYDRA, (2) The Winter Soldier was the operative who did it, and (3) The Winter Soldier just happened to be Captain America's best friend in order to go looking for confirmation. That's a LOT of privileged info to start out with for someone who wasn't a HYDRA higher-up with decades of history with them.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Bruinsfan

[scriggle]

29 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

That does bring up the question of how exactly Zemo knew there would be something from that particular date incriminating enough to drive a wedge between the Avengers. He had to know or at least suspect that (1) Stark's parents were murdered by HYDRA, (2) The Winter Soldier was the operative who did it, and (3) The Winter Soldier just happened to be Captain America's best friend in order to go looking for confirmation. That's a LOT of privileged info to start out with for someone who wasn't a HYDRA higher-up with decades of history with them.

Personally, I handwave that he found the date in the files and knew from researching the Avengers that it matched the date of the Starks' deaths and he went from there. 

It's the fault of the writing that so many details have to be handwaved.  From Zemo & the files, The Accords being drawn up without any of the Avengers knowing about them, no-one questioning why Ross was seeming put in charge, the fucking video of the Starks' murders (really? on a deserted road) and on and on.

There's a great series of posts on Tumblr (yeah, I know) Can we talk about what was in the trunk in the 1991 incident in Civil War?

Quote

previous movies left the impression that Howard and Maria’s death was thought to be a car accident at the time, but if a bunch of super-soldier serum was missing from Howard’s car (and Bucky was sent to retrieve it, so the intel was widespread enough in the military/intelligence community that the Soviets knew about the project) it should have been very obvious that he was murdered. Not to the general public, maybe, but it would have been a really big deal for SHIELD, at least, to get it back and figure out who killed him.

Edited May 23, 2016 by scriggle
correct link

[Wynterwolf]

... unless it was Hydra/SHIELD agents that were 'in charge' of the investigation.  And especially since Howard, himself, was transporting the serum in his car, I think it's likely you could have counted the number of people that knew about what he was doing on one hand, and possibly all of those were Hydra too.  (caveat: didn't read the tumblr thread... I've spent too much time on tumblr already).  

eta: Bruinsfan - I think all he really needed to suspect was that Hydra had killed Tony's parents, and that Steve knew about it (which he could have found out from the Hydra files, since Zola was obviously in contact with someone after Nat and Steve broke into his facility).  The rest could have just been a happy accident.  

Edited May 23, 2016 by Wynterwolf

[Jediknight]

5 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

... unless it was Hydra/SHIELD agents that were 'in charge' of the investigation.  And especially since Howard, himself, was transporting the serum in his car, I think it's likely you could have counted the number of people that knew about what he was doing on one hand, and possibly all of those were Hydra too.  (caveat: didn't read the tumblr thread... I've spent too much time on tumblr already).  

Yep, we know from Ant-Man that Carson was Hydra and very high up in SHIELD, so he'd cover up Howard having the serum.  He wouldn't want it out there that Howard had that serum with him, because then people like Peggy would start to ask questions, and that's not good for Hydra.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Jediknight

[scriggle]

2 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

... unless it was Hydra/SHIELD agents that were 'in charge' of the investigation.  And especially since Howard, himself, was transporting the serum in his car, I think it's likely you could have counted the number of people that knew about what he was doing on one hand, and possibly all of those were Hydra too.  (caveat: didn't read the tumblr thread... I've spent too much time on tumblr already).  

It's an interesting read but I know what you mean about Tumblr.

IIRC, I think Howard was supposed to be going to the Pentagon? Maybe? Anyway someone/somewhere should've had an inkling it wasn't a simple accident.  But...handwave...

I'll go back to "I wish we got a true follow-up to Cap2 instead of this mess."

[romantic idiot]

On 22 May 2016 at 11:51 PM, Danny Franks said:

I will just say this, to people upset that Steve chose Bucky over Tony. No, he didn't. He chose right over wrong. Bucky did not do anything to Howard and Maria. He had no control over anything he did, and therefore should not be punished. That is patently unjust and unfair, and Steve Rogers recognises that. As usual, he was doing what was right. Does anyone here think that Steve would have let Tony kill a random unknown who had been mind controlled to kill Howard? I don't. Steve is better than that.

Just wanted to say that I liked your post because of this bit. I too, agree that Steve was batting for justice, not for Bucky. Luckily or unluckily for him, justice was with Bucky. 

Having said that, I disagree with you about it being a shallow movie that wasted Bucky's stories. I think we'll get more of Bucky eventually, but as someone who likes all the Avenger's and Tony as well, I enjoyed spending time with all of them. I like that Cap's movies are about teams and tribes. His origin was also about the Howling Commandos and Peggy Carter, Howard Stark (and little we knew it, Bucky). Cap2 had Falcon and Natasha and was about SHEILD. And the last one was about his team, the Avengers and his friendships. 

[Terrafamilia]

3 hours ago, scriggle said:

There's a great series of posts on Tumblr (yeah, I know) Can we talk about what was in the trunk in the 1991 incident in Civil War?

Rather than being an out and out H. Stark reformulated SSS, I was operating under the assumption that they were blood bags full of Kree blood as seen in Marvels Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. or some derivative thereof.

I was a bit perturbed by the name dropping with Everett Ross. In the comics he was a pretty okay guy but here they just slapped the name onto a bureaucratic twit.

[NoWillToResist]

8 hours ago, scriggle said:

Yeah, I agree.  But at least Tony would've known HYDRA was up to something hinky on the date his parents died.  There was apparently enough info in the files to lead to the Russian.  If  he had decrypted the files, maybe the Avengers would've have found the Russian first.  Of course, then we'd have no movie.....

...I think 'no movie' would have been better than what we got. The implausibilities and coincidences and outright WTFery were too many for me this time...

[VCRTracking]

Quote

Were Clint, Wanda, Scott, or Steve even thinking about the damage they were causing. Or did they think because they had a righteous cause they didn't have to worry about that.

They were thinking they were on their way to stop Zemo from unleashing six deadly super soldiers into the world and time was of the essence. They were later willing to stay and distract them so Cap and Bucky could escape.

Quote

Given the events of the Hulk movie that I believe is considered MCU canon, I don't understand why anyone looked at Ross and thought he was the right person to be overseeing/the face of the Accords to the Avengers!

He's the Secretary of State. To be fair the administration of the current president in the MCU is severely messed up with the vice president being arrested in Iron Man Three for being involved with Extremis plot.

Quote

I really wish we got at true follow-up to Cap2. Steve and Sam with the help of Natasha and possibly Sharon tracking down Bucky with Zemo and the other Winter Soldiers as the big bad. The bones of it are still there in Civil War. I just feel that Cap's final solo movie got highjacked by Tony's manpain

Again what people really mean is they want another movie like Cap2 not one that would actually follow up on the events of that movie and also what happened to the characters in other films. People complained that the other Avengers didn't help each other their solo movies and that Age of Ultron seemed ignored the other the other Phase 2 movies altogether yet people want Civil War to ignore that since Cap2 Steve and Natasha became leaders of a new Avengers team that includes Falcon.

Quote

Make Zemo an actual worthy villain, give him some ties to power that are more than 'I read it on the internet ', for crying out loud! Hell, use the comic book lineage to make him the descendent of Hydra operatives who wants to reclaim the project that the Soviet Union stole and use it for his own personal gain. Don't just give him a ridiculously convoluted, nonsensical plan to make Cap and Iron Man punch each other (which also handily ties in with the UN's Accord that Tony supports and Cap disagrees with, and already set them at odds without Zemo's knowledge or influence).

I like that Zemo was just one man who wasn't part of a larger conspiracy and had reason to hate the Avengers and I like that there were consequences to Black Widow releasing all of secret SHIELD's files out to the public.

Edited May 24, 2016 by VCRTracking

[Danny Franks]

9 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Again what people really mean is they want another movie like Cap2 not one that would actually follow up on the events of that movie and also what happened to the characters in other films. People complained that the other Avengers didn't help each other their solo movies and that Age of Ultron seemed ignored the other the other Phase 2 movies altogether yet people want Civil War to ignore that since Cap2 Steve and Natasha became leaders of a new Avengers team that includes Falcon.

 

That team doesn't include Tony, unless I forgot the ending of Age of Ultron (which is entirely possible, I only bothered watching it once). It doesn't include Hawkeye or Black Panther or Ant-Man or Spider-Man either.

So you want Cap's whole Avengers team to be on the case, then it's still significantly less characters than were in this movie. But there are lots of ways to explain the absence of characters beyond just... not explaining it, which is what Marvel have done before. If your story doesn't require characters to be there, then they shouldn't be there. This story, such as it was, required everyone to be there so they could fight. I didn't care for it one bit. I think this version actually worked less effectively than the comic book version, which wasn't a good story anyway.

[NoWillToResist]

11 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

They were thinking they were on their way to stop Zemo from unleashing six deadly super soldiers into the world and time was of the essence.

 

This actually brings up a really strong counter-argument to the whole Accords crap. If the Accords had their way, when the group found out about Zemo's plan (or what they thought was his plan), they would have had to notify their assigned UN Committee, wait for them all to get assembled, present the intel, wait for the members to discuss the findings and come to a decision before being able to take steps to prevent the potential activation and release of 5 stronger Winter Soldiers into the world.

When there are such large stakes in the mix, standard turnaround times cannot apply. They would always be a day late and a dollar short.

They were lucky that Zemo decided to kill the other soldiers. Had he decided to activate them and keep them under his control, he could have done a whole lot of damage...

Edited May 24, 2016 by NoWillToResist

[stealinghome]

51 minutes ago, NoWillToResist said:

This actually brings up a really strong counter-argument to the whole Accords crap. If the Accords had their way, when the group found out about Zemo's plan (or what they thought was his plan), they would have had to notify their assigned UN Committee, wait for them all to get assembled, present the intel, wait for the members to discuss the findings and come to a decision before being able to take steps to prevent the potential activation and release of 5 stronger Winter Soldiers into the world.

When there are such large stakes in the mix, standard turnaround times cannot apply. They would always be a day late and a dollar short.

They were lucky that Zemo decided to kill the other soldiers. Had he decided to activate them and keep them under his control, he could have done a whole lot of damage...

Oh, it's even better than that. Ross--who I guess is the de facto handler for the Avengers right now, acting as that committee would have--was informed about the super soldiers and CHOSE to do nothing. A+++++ oversight there. Really proving that the government needs to be in charge of the Avengers, since they can decide when the Avengers should and should not intervene...not.

I actually kind of wish Zemo had set the super soldiers free. It feels like a cop-out to me that the movie didn't go there--they basically let Ross and everyone on Team Iron Man off the hook for obstructing Team Cap enough for Zemo's plan to work. 

[NoWillToResist]

43 minutes ago, stealinghome said:

Oh, it's even better than that. Ross--who I guess is the de facto handler for the Avengers right now, acting as that committee would have--was informed about the super soldiers and CHOSE to do nothing. A+++++ oversight there. Really proving that the government needs to be in charge of the Avengers, since they can decide when the Avengers should and should not intervene...not.

I actually kind of wish Zemo had set the super soldiers free. It feels like a cop-out to me that the movie didn't go there--they basically let Ross and everyone on Team Iron Man off the hook for obstructing Team Cap enough for Zemo's plan to work. 

Throw in that if Ross were in league with the baddie du jour (as Steve has experienced in the past), those in charge of the Avengers could/would legally, intentionally prevent them from intervening and screwing up their nefarious plans.

I also don't understand why Zemo decided to kill the super soldiers. The Winter Soldier program had nothing to do with Sokovia and his family's deaths. Wouldn't he have liked to own and control his own mini army of baddies? Hell, he could have programmed them to assassinate all the Avengers! By taking the soldiers out, Zemo is practically the hero of the piece. ;) You know Ross would have wanted to keep them for his own uses if he'd got his hands on them...

[VCRTracking]

Quote

That team doesn't include Tony, unless I forgot the ending of Age of Ultron (which is entirely possible, I only bothered watching it once). It doesn't include Hawkeye or Black Panther or Ant-Man or Spider-Man either.

So you want Cap's whole Avengers team to be on the case, then it's still significantly less characters than were in this movie. But there are lots of ways to explain the absence of characters beyond just... not explaining it, which is what Marvel have done before. If your story doesn't require characters to be there, then they shouldn't be there. This story, such as it was, required everyone to be there so they could fight. I didn't care for it one bit. I think this version actually worked less effectively than the comic book version, which wasn't a good story anyway.

I meant the team in the beginning that went on the Lagos mission, which was actually missing two members, Vision and War Machine from the end of Age of Ultron. Tony was no longer an active member(although he still financed the team). Cap is the leader of this team and they've been together for a year by the beginning of Civil War. The Lagos tragedy happens and the Accords are brought to them and the team is split on whether to sign it. Then much of the movie it Steve and Sam(the ones most opposed to the Accords) working together with help from Sharon to capture Bucky safely, and then pro-Accords Tony and Rhodey on the opposite side with Natasha in the middle. Black Panther tries to kill Bucky out of vengeance. Vision who agreed with the Accords is keeping Wanda from leaving the compound. Then Bucky escapes and Steve gets him but doesn't turn him because by this point he believes he was framed and also learns about the six super soldiers.Realizing they need help Falcon calls in Ant Man who he had encountered before and Steve calls Hawkeye out of retirement to free Wanda who's being confined. Hawkeye does this because her brother died saving him and he owed her. Tony and Natasha have to bring them in or Ross will do it with more force and so they both recruit a new member. Natasha tells Black Panther she knows where Barnes is. Tony recruits Peter because his agility, strength and webshooters can take out Cap from a distance.

Edited May 24, 2016 by VCRTracking

[bmoore4026]

Well, some people would like Cap and Bucky to be a real life couple:

http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/movies/news/a45211/captain-america-boyfriend/

https://www.yahoo.com/news/twitter-really-wants-captain-america-202645973.html

http://mashable.com/2016/05/24/give-captain-america-a-boyfriend/

I've been wanting this for years and, admit it, there's been more chemistry between Cap and Bucky than between Cap and Sharon.

Comments to this are as enlightened and supportive as you would expect.

[Kromm]

1 hour ago, bmoore4026 said:

Well, some people would like Cap and Bucky to be a real life couple:

http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/movies/news/a45211/captain-america-boyfriend/

https://www.yahoo.com/news/twitter-really-wants-captain-america-202645973.html

http://mashable.com/2016/05/24/give-captain-america-a-boyfriend/

I've been wanting this for years and, admit it, there's been more chemistry between Cap and Bucky than between Cap and Sharon.

Comments to this are as enlightened and supportive as you would expect.

It's stupid, not because there's anything wrong with gay superheroes, but because it's pandering to mawkish fans who want to reinterpret things to suit their whims.  And there's a difference between crowdpleasing and pandering.

And shame on the articles confusing twitter and facebook campaigns (which cost nothing, hardly even any effort) to launch with "The Internet Wants". No. A bunch of vocal folks with time on their hands and the will to tweet want. Not "The Internet".

Also, the Esquire writer is a total idiot for other reasons.

Quote

By Tuesday, the hashtag #GiveCaptainAmericaABoyfriend had accumulated 138,000 tweets. If this works out, he will be the first openly gay character in the Marvel universe. It's 2016. It's about time! 

No. The Marvel Universe has had openly gay characters (both superheroes and supporting characters) for decades (since the 1980s). Dozens of them (by now, maybe hundreds), as well as a ton of bisexuals. It had a gay wedding issue a few years ago even. This writer didn't even do basic research. 

Slashfic is all well and good, but it becomes a joke when it's driven hard with false claims that there's some kind of social imperative to make them reality. But that notion is, as I said, just pandering in a reality where Marvel has long been at the forefront of making original gay characters.

If this is a problem perceived specifically with the MCU (vs. Marvel overall)?  Well, lets admit that the MCU hasn't even managed a female lead yet. They've got some real work to do there too. Since the 4 or 5 highest profile gay or bisexual Marvel heroes (vs. supporting characters) are in the X-Men books, and thus in FOX's hands, I think they'd have to go with a Plan B maybe. Guardians of the Galaxy 2 is the best place to start. The characters of Moondragon and Phyla-Vell were both in the comic book version of Guardians (they were a couple in fact), and the first is bisexual, and the second one gay I believe. 

Edited May 24, 2016 by Kromm

[ChelseaNH]

2 hours ago, NoWillToResist said:

I also don't understand why Zemo decided to kill the super soldiers.

He doesn't want power, or to destroy the world.  He wants revenge on the people who caused the deaths of his family.  The super soldiers won't give him anything he wants.

[bmoore4026]

18 minutes ago, Kromm said:

It's stupid, not because there's anything wrong with gay superheroes, but because it's pandering to mawkish fans who want to reinterpret things to suit their whims.  And there's a difference between crowdpleasing and pandering.

And shame on the articles confusing twitter and facebook campaigns (which cost nothing, hardly even any effort) to launch with "The Internet Wants". No. A bunch of vocal folks with time on their hands and the will to tweet want. Not "The Internet".

Also, the Esquire writer is a total idiot for other reasons.

Oh, good!  A reasonable response that doesn't reek of gay hate.

Yeah, much of what some fans want is wishful thinking.  Cap will never be gay, that would cause marketing to drop.

But, at least there's Tumblr.

[Raja]

24 minutes ago, ChelseaNH said:

He doesn't want power, or to destroy the world.  He wants revenge on the people who caused the deaths of his family.  The super soldiers won't give him anything he wants.

And it plays into the overall prejudice against the enhanced which has played more on the TV side which the movies don't have time to explore. I fear if the accords were like what the comic book fans said they were if played in the movie it would look suddenly like the world of X-Men The Last Sand

[Kromm]

15 minutes ago, bmoore4026 said:

Oh, good!  A reasonable response that doesn't reek of gay hate.

Yeah, much of what some fans want is wishful thinking.  Cap will never be gay, that would cause marketing to drop.

But, at least there's Tumblr.

I hope that's not sarcasm!

Honestly, thinking that making slashfic into the default version is ridiculous is hardly gay hate. Pandering is never the good way to go about things in my opinion. Especially with something like Marvel Comics, where there are so many other ways to go.

And it's just stupid hyperbole by people like that Esquire writer where they just baldly make nonsense statements like 

Quote

 If this works out, he will be the first openly gay character in the Marvel universe. It's 2016. It's about time! 

Is just the biggest disservice of all. It acts like three decades of gay Marvel characters doesn't exist, just because the writer didn't care to do even a basic google search.

The MCU specifically (note: not "Marvel" like that writer said) could do with some gay characters. It's only common sense that it should have them. As I said, Guardians of the Galaxy 2 seems the best place to introduce some characters who already exist. Although if you broadly define the MCU to include the FOX films, there are a dozen different characters they could introduce easily. 

As for Cap himself?  I'm a fan of an interpretation of him without any romantic partner at all. It never serves his character that well, no matter who it is.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Kromm

[NoWillToResist]

35 minutes ago, ChelseaNH said:

He doesn't want power, or to destroy the world.  He wants revenge on the people who caused the deaths of his family.  The super soldiers won't give him anything he wants.

I get that, but he could use the soldiers to inflict pain and suffering on the Avengers...

[Wynterwolf]

37 minutes ago, Kromm said:

It's stupid, not because there's anything wrong with gay superheroes, but because it's pandering to mawkish fans who want to reinterpret things to suit their whims.

A significant number of people are reacting to, and connecting with, the story that's being presented on screen, as well as the acting choices (whether intentional or not) and direction that has accompanied it.  I don't see that as "stupid", to me that's what entertainment is about... connecting to the material in a way that is meaningful to the viewer, and I often appreciate a fresh take on old, familiar characters. It wouldn't even take much, just a line of dialog somewhere down the line.  

 

6 minutes ago, NoWillToResist said:

I get that, but he could use the soldiers to inflict pain and suffering on the Avengers...

I got the feeling from what he said that it was the power that the Avengers wielded that he was against, so he didn't want to become what they were.  

[bmoore4026]

55 minutes ago, Kromm said:

I hope that's not sarcasm!

Oh, no, that was 100% genuine.  I'm a pretty on the level person.

[VCRTracking]

Film Crit Hulk Smash: CIVIL WAR, SPIDER-MAN 2, And The Dangers Of Assumed Empathy

This will probably cause an argument.

Film Crit Hulk writes everything in all caps so I'll just excerpt from his long essay:

Quote

BUT INSTEAD OF SPINNING YARNS, THESE NEW MARVEL MOVIES HAVE BECAME EXHIBITIONS.

Edited May 25, 2016 by VCRTracking

[Kromm]

4 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

A significant number of people are reacting to, and connecting with, the story that's being presented on screen, as well as the acting choices (whether intentional or not) and direction that has accompanied it.  I don't see that as "stupid", to me that's what entertainment is about... connecting to the material in a way that is meaningful to the viewer, and I often appreciate a fresh take on old, familiar characters. It wouldn't even take much, just a line of dialog somewhere down the line.  

The people's reactions seeing a slashy subtext aren't stupid. Not in the least. What's stupid is the idea that the creators should be storytelling via informal fiat and making it MORE than subtext in the process. That the loudest proclamations on twitter should change the course of the story. Not that fans don't have a role. If millions of people are walking out of Batman V. Superman talking about how confused they were, how little it seemed like any Batman or Superman film they'd ever seen, and that sends a message to Warner Brothers not to listen to Zack Snyder anymore, that's fan opinion in action. But that's not specific--that's a general course change. And it's not just a few people tweeting something, it's the dollars and cents collected on that movie supporting that too. The Internet is not "speaking" to say they want Gay Captain America. Some folks who like the slashy subtext and want to change the story to take it out of the realm of subtext are. But aside from how that would be pandering to a small but vocal group, I think it also would also cheapen any vision of what being gay means in the context of Marvel movies. Making it about the cliche of the fantasy of the hero and his (usually teen--remember Bucky started out that way) sidekick suppressing homoerotic feelings, until they bam, just explode one day.  You know... the Batman & Robin cliche, where generations of slashy fans have wanted them to bang boots because of how that 1960s TV show showed them. But in my opinion, giving into that totally devalues gay characters in that work.  Because they're not normalized characters where it's shown as something regular, something standard, but instead as something scandalous. And a lot of "haw haw, didn't we always know they had to be doing it"?

That's what Cap suddenly exploring his secret passion for Bucky would spell--making it into the punchline of a joke. Rather than the introduction of gay characters with a truly positive representation. 

Edited May 25, 2016 by Kromm

[stealinghome]

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

Film Crit Hulk Smash: CIVIL WAR, SPIDER-MAN 2, And The Dangers Of Assumed Empathy

This will probably cause an argument.

Film Crit Hulk writes everything in all caps so I'll just excerpt from his long essay:

I don't think he's wrong. I do feel that CA:CW wussed out on basically every single plot point in service of the status quo/not having any long-term consequences. Which is clearly in service of the larger MCU.

[Spartan Girl]

6 hours ago, Kromm said:

The people's reactions seeing a slashy subtext aren't stupid. Not in the least. What's stupid is the idea that the creators should be storytelling via informal fiat and making it MORE than subtext in the process. That the loudest proclamations on twitter should change the course of the story. Not that fans don't have a role. If millions of people are walking out of Batman V. Superman talking about how confused they were, how little it seemed like any Batman or Superman film they'd ever seen, and that sends a message to Warner Brothers not to listen to Zack Snyder anymore, that's fan opinion in action. But that's not specific--that's a general course change. And it's not just a few people tweeting something, it's the dollars and cents collected on that movie supporting that too. The Internet is not "speaking" to say they want Gay Captain America. Some folks who like the slashy subtext and want to change the story to take it out of the realm of subtext are. But aside from how that would be pandering to a small but vocal group, I think it also would also cheapen any vision of what being gay means in the context of Marvel movies. Making it about the cliche of the fantasy of the hero and his (usually teen--remember Bucky started out that way) sidekick suppressing homoerotic feelings, until they bam, just explode one day.  You know... the Batman & Robin cliche, where generations of slashy fans have wanted them to bang boots because of how that 1960s TV show showed them. But in my opinion, giving into that totally devalues gay characters in that work.  Because they're not normalized characters where it's shown as something regular, something standard, but instead as something scandalous. And a lot of "haw haw, didn't we always know they had to be doing it"?

That's what Cap suddenly exploring his secret passion for Bucky would spell--making it into the punchline of a joke. Rather than the introduction of gay characters with a truly positive representation. 

Thank you, that's exactly what I was thinking. That's why I really hope the filmmakers don't kow-tow to this. It would just be so patronizing on how many levels. 

And I really, really hate how some people are using this as excuse to dump on Sharon Carter.

[STOPSHOUTING]

I'm a straight gal who finds Chris Evans super hot and I'd have no issue, in theory, with the movie version of Captain America being gay. I say "in theory" because I don't really want the gender, sexuality and mortality fluid comic world to take over the movies; because I think a decade-old loosely connected movie universe spanning 12-15 films is very different than a nearly century old comic universe spanning tens of thousands of books. The massively changing characterizations in general, independent of sexuality, just wouldn't work in a movie environment, IMO.

The truth is the MCU is an action franchise, geared primarily to kids and teens and the truth is I can't think of a single time they've actually done a romantic subplot interestingly, let alone well. Throwing a line into a future film, as suggested by some, that says Cap and Bucky are a couple would actually be a pretty crappy way to introduce it. I mean, I wish all their romance was more nuanced than that, but especially if they are going to do something most would find groundbreaking. A plot like that would deserve better.

[NoWillToResist]

27 minutes ago, STOPSHOUTING said:

 I can't think of a single time they've actually done a romantic subplot interestingly, let alone well.

Heh. This reminds me of so many tv shows, where I love a particular pairing and am torn between wanting them together and fearing the disaster the writers would make of it if they went there. :)

I do think you have good support for your argument in just the Avengers movies though (Hulk/Black Widow, Cap/Sharon). Neither of these had satisfying buildups, IMO. On the flip side, the reveal of Hawkeye's family had no build up (intentionally) but I personally felt that Jeremy Renner and Linda Cardellini sold it pretty well considering the audience had their established relationship sprung on them out of the blue.

Edited May 25, 2016 by NoWillToResist

[Wynterwolf]

The romantic subplot is already embedded in the 3 Cap movies and as romance subplots go, it's one of the best written/portrayed ones that I've seen on screen.  All that's missing is an overt acknowledgement, which could take 15 seconds of screen time, one word from Steve and 2 from Bucky and a handclasp before they go off to do something death-defying, which could be easily lifted out for release in countries that would object to two men showing they love each other in a romantic sense.  

My biggest concern would be that I fully expect Steve to die at some point, so if they did any kind of acknowledgement just before Steve died, it would be a pretty spectacular example of the bury your gays trope.  

[STOPSHOUTING]

1 hour ago, Wynterwolf said:

The romantic subplot is already embedded in the 3 Cap movies and as romance subplots go, it's one of the best written/portrayed ones that I've seen on screen.  All that's missing is an overt acknowledgement, which could take 15 seconds of screen time, one word from Steve and 2 from Bucky and a handclasp before they go off to do something death-defying, which could be easily lifted out for release in countries that would object to two men showing they love each other in a romantic sense.  

My biggest concern would be that I fully expect Steve to die at some point, so if they did any kind of acknowledgement just before Steve died, it would be a pretty spectacular example of the bury your gays trope.  

I'm glad you got that but even as someone not averse to the idea, I never got even a hint of that from the Cap-Bucky relationship through the three films. I saw them as friends close enough to be brothers. Nothing more. 

It also seems to me -- again speaking from the skewed perspective of a straight woman -- that if that is true, and I just missed the romantic elements, doesn't that feed into yet another stereotype ... That all close male friendships must be "gay"? That men can't cherish, even love, other men in a non-romantic way? Isn't that just another "can't sit next to each other at the movies" tired trope?

I definitely agree with your last sentiment and everything Evans has said has led me to think his Cap will die onscreen, and soon. So if the fans were to get their wish it would definitely be a dying declaration sort of thing; which would tick off more than it would satisfy.