S06.E10: Game Over, Charles

[jjjmoss]

Mmm, mArlene can only bother to have actual plot 1-2 eps a season though; she has no time/room for a mystery each year.

[dradiscontact]

Two things:

 

Cece getting kicked out of UPenn and thinking Ali and the Liars set her up for this would have been motivation enough. It could've also explained away Ian's murder, because he was standing at the top of the stairs when the girl at the frat party was pushed, and CeCe could've started with him to exact her revenge. Ian was never written with the characteristics or personality traits that would lead an audience to believe he would kill himself. That was something that was never hinted at or alluded to. And the slapdash feel of this episode comes across the same way that Sweeps Week Lesbian Kissing does--selfish and exploitative. (So maybe this show is A... and also Ezra?)

 

Jessica DiLaurentis worrying about Kenneth leaving her to the point that she forced her daughter to hide who she was and allowed her child to be held in captivity for the majority of her life rang extremely false given that she had so little consideration for her marriage that she had affairs with Peter Hastings and Bethany Young's father. Her affair with Peter Hastings was long before CeCe was born, so she wasn't all that invested in her marriage to begin with.

[MinionBooty]

But to come back as a patient, would not the medical doctors there have to be informed of her surgery and change? The hormones? Again wouldn't bringing back Charlotte, once again bring up more issues? Why not save that money and reintroduce her to the world  as  Marion's daughter that needed a safe place to stay after some tragedy?

 

Saves Jason and obviously no one could tell the difference.

[SadieT]

So Marlene has clarified that Toby and Ali were not teenagers in the near kiss flashback at Toby's house where his mom interrupts. So if Charlotte is about 14 when Bethany pushes Marion off the roof (she says something about being drugged up for the next couple of years and then being allowed out for a funeral, which we know took place when she was 16 because that's the age Mr. D. told Ali Charles killed himself at)..... then Alison is like 7 in that flashback? Because Charlotte is about 7 years older than girls if we go off of her recreating the prom she missed out on from 7 years prior in the dollhouse. So Marlene now says Ali and Toby weren't meant to be teenagers, but they wanted to use the actors for certain creative and visual reasons, which whatever, let's ignore the fact that Sasha and Keegan clearly do not look 7 and 9 years old in that scene, but what about the dialogue and the content of the flashback? Was 7 year old Alison flirting with Toby and seductively telling him "I know you want to kiss me" before they almost kiss? I mean...come the fuck on. Just admit you fucked up and stop trying to pass off gaping plot holes and mistakes as "creative choices". This whole thing is ridiculous. 

Edited August 13, 2015 by SadieT

[william0102]

If CeCe went back, no, Radley wouldn't have been needed to be informed of her operations. And it would be in her file that she was on hormones since they would need to dispense it to her. Like I said, if Mrs. D had paid off the doctors, then she could theoretically bring CeCe back as Charlotte Drake to Radley since Mrs. D was on the board. Realistically, why would CeCe have gone back to Radley though?

Honestly, there's no way CeCe could have transitioned like the show explained- it doesn't work timeline-wise, age-wise, or even medically. That's why this is just a plot meant to shock. There was no serious thought put into how CeCe would have transitioned, how she even got out of Radley as much as she did to meet Jason, go spend the summer at Cape May, be allowed to go to college (how and with what car to get there without a licence?) it's just not possible. Nothing about CeCe being trans works since apparently it was thinking she killed Ali that made her crazy(? i can't figure out her motivation at all), so literally there was no reason to have CeCe be trans. They only did it to be shocking or to change because people guessed who they had as A.

[MinionBooty]

Thank you for all your answers.

 

I too was trying to wrap my head around taking such a life changing, emotional and freeing time in a Transgenders life and then bitterly bypassing everything that made it such.

 

I think CeCe was not right in her head from when she was a child, having very little to do with her sexual orientation and everything to do with her own family, upbringing and biology i.e. her mind. I don't believe her father drove her to be this way. If anything her her mother did more damage. From the story  (dad and mom's own words) and what we are shown(the bathtub) that child and a scary lack of empathy, remorse and reality before being committed.

 

Also is there a difference in Cece and Charlotte? In her mind is one more damaged? One not responsible for the others actions? Are there two different persons and personalities?

[Perfect Xero]

It's hard to know if Charles lack of empathy is the flashback is intentional or if it's just a child actor not being very good.
 

So Marlene has clarified that Toby and Ali were not teenagers in the near kiss flashback at Toby's house where his mom interrupts. So if Charlotte is about 14 when Bethany pushes Marion off the roof (she says something about being drugged up for the next couple of years and then being allowed out for a funeral, which we know took place when she was 16 because that's the age Mr. D. told Ali Charles killed himself at)..... then Alison is like 7 in that flashback? Because Charlotte is about 7 years older than girls if we go off of her recreating the prom she missed out on from 7 years prior in the dollhouse. So Marlene now says Ali and Toby weren't meant to be teenagers, but they wanted to use the actors for certain creative and visual reasons, which whatever, let's ignore the fact that Sasha and Keegan clearly do not look 7 and 9 years old in that scene, but what about the dialogue and the content of the flashback? Was 7 year old Alison flirting with Toby and seductively telling him "I know you want to kiss me" before they almost kiss? I mean...come the fuck on. Just admit you fucked up and stop trying to pass off gaping plot holes and mistakes as "creative choices". This whole thing is ridiculous.

 
Yeah, everything about this episode (and the birthday party video for that matter) implied that they closed the age difference between Jason and Alison to only, like, 2-3 years at most.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Perfect Xero

[raytch]

Ok. I think I've calmed down enough to put some thoughts into words.

 

First, I hate this reveal. Second, I love that it opened an important discussion.

http://www.autostraddle.com/pretty-little-liars-episode-610-recap-i-feel-a-lot-safer-when-im-in-charge-of-what-happens-to-me-302360/

Last night I read Heather Hogan's recap on autostraddle, and I feel what she said really sums it all up on the transgender issue. I think she's giving the writers a whole lot benefit of the doubt, because ever since they went the EzrA (NOT) route, I doubt they are able to pull this off in a good way.

 

This said, I don't mind Cece being A. I mind Cece being 1) A, 2) Ali's long lost sibling, 3) and also a transgender. I think the writers took a lot more than they can juggle with this story line. Like you all said before, this would have still worked if it was a long lost sister.

I don't know if this was planned since season 3, if it really was the writers should have paid more attention. Yes, there have been clues for Ali having a sister since season 2, and clues to Cece being A ever since she was introduced in season 3, but being A, and transgender does not add up with anything we already knew.

One thing we knew for sure this season, was that Charles was in his early 20s when Marion Cavanaugh was killed. Bethany was 2 years older than Ali so she must have been 15. They can't tell us / show us otherwise and expect us to be all "OK sure!"

These writers have been telling us since they introduced the Marion Cavanaugh story line that we need to pay attention to this, because if we can figure out this particular mystery, we can pretty much get the ball rolling and get all of our answers from there.

They also particularly said they will not be doing a transgender storyline, because it's too wild. They could have just said "never say never, or haha wouldn't that be fun" but they actually meant to mislead the fandom. Every time someone would ask "Am I crazy for thinking it could be Wilden/Wren/Ezra/etc..?" the writers responded "No you're not just wait for it".

And now they're acting like everything they did was solid and they did these "questionable" choices for the sake of art and the fans who are upset by this reveal are having a hard time with the writers' choice of making A transgender.

I'm even shocked by Norman Buckley's responses about this show being "dreamlike".

Every show needs anchors to ground it, even the craziest most fantasy sci-fi ones... it's called mythology or lore or whatever you wanna name it, and follows a certain logic. This reveal went against some of the most crucial points of the mystery and that is why it made me angry (and still does).

 

A lot of TV shows establish a world only to keep turning it around and changing the status quo every once in a while to keep things fresh.

The liars have been in high school since season 1. We are still dealing with the same mystery we've dealt with in the pilot. THE PILOT. So yes, it's important that those answers make sense. It's really really important for us fans who have watched and defended this show for years that the writers don't go and dish everything they've told us in the garbage, then say "but she's transgender. Sympathize!"

[Jack Shaftoe]

 

Like I said, if Mrs. D had paid off the doctors, then she could theoretically bring CeCe back as Charlotte Drake to Radley since Mrs. D was on the board. Realistically, why would CeCe have gone back to Radley though?

 

Realistically, Cece would have escaped that travesty of a mental institution many years ago.

 

 

I think CeCe was not right in her head from when she was a child, having very little to do with her sexual orientation and everything to do with her own family, upbringing and biology i.e. her mind. I don't believe her father drove her to be this way. If anything her her mother did more damage. From the story  (dad and mom's own words) and what we are shown(the bathtub) that child and a scary lack of empathy, remorse and reality before being committed.

 

Yes, Marlene confirmed this too:

 

 

It is of importance in the sense that there’s some crazy that runs in this family. It was not completely by accident that she hurt her doll baby before — she couldn’t distinguish between the doll and real life. I think it’s important to know that’s where her crazy started — long before she transitioned.

 

Moving on:

 

 

They try to make every psycho or stalker a victim on this show. Mona, Alison, Ezra and now CeCe. Lots of people have traumas and don't turn into psychos. They are victims but they have also made other people victims.

 

Norman Buckley even tweeted:

 

 

I think @imarleneking is brilliant. Result of abuse is frequently more abuse, directed towards oneself and others.

 

Like the cycle of abuse is a rarity on television, instead of something that you can see in the majority of villains of any importance.

 

 

Transitioning is a long process, not a week out of Radley. Literally Mrs. D would have had to hide CeCe at the aunt's(?) house for at least two years.

 

Rosewood is the land of opportunity in many respects. If you can become a cop in a week, I would venture you can also undergo a complete sex change in two weeks, tops.

[raytch]

What pissed me off about that article (or maybe it was a different one I dunno), was her saying she didn't want to comment on HOW Cece went through the sex change (if she just identified as a girl or went through the complete transition). Like if she presents a character as transgender that's still tiptoeing around the "grey" area, but to actually get in on the details of how this happened, logistically, that would be taking too far.

THis is like Cece's reasoning in the finale "I did date my brother yes. but bang him I did not because that would be INSANE"

 

Ugh.

Sweetheart, not only are you in the grey area, you're bathing and drowning and splashing in IT!

[william0102]

The only reason Marlene didn't want to comment is because she and the rest of the staff never figured it out for themselves.

They just decided to make CeCe trans, and unfortunately for them they cast a cis woman years before the decision was made. They basically wrote themselves into a corner because I doubt CeCe wore shorts the entirety of Cape May- and I doubt that she hadn't changed in front of Alison multiple times, so I think it would be safe to assume CeCe transitioned fully.

*Just a quick note, it doesn't matter how many or what kind of surgeries any trans person has had- they're still presenting as their true sex and identity (in CeCe's case as female) so to ask a person if they've had "the surgery" is extremely rude and indecent; as are any questions about their sex life or if they plan on getting sexual reassignment surgery. Now obviously CeCe is a character/not real, but I thought I'd say something in case there are some people that don't realize how such questions would be extremely offensive to trans people because it basically means you care more about their body parts than them- that you're judging them based on how far you think they fit being "male" or "female".

[Snow Fairy]

My first thought was not that Charles is a boy who became woman. I don't know why, but I immediately thought of genetic disease - Non-Klinefelter XXY.

 

47,XXY is a chromosomal arrangement where a person has 2 X chromosomes and 1 Y chromosome. The apparent majority of individuals with the XXY karyotype are males and some of those are considered to have Klinefelter syndrome. However other individuals use estrogen and identify as female (some are born with a female phenotype and with SRY negative 47,XXY) and some 47,XXYs choose to be androgynous, and use no hormone treatment. The choice of identification and hormonal or surgical treatments may follow gender identity counselling. It is not known what percentage of 47,XXYs identify as male, as female, or otherwise.

These individuals identify or choose to identify as women, take estradiol. Some of them can and have been documented as bearing children.

There is no syndrome for an XXY person who identifies female; their breasts, hips, and lack of testicular phenotype-associated features are considered normal.

A very small number of XXYs not born with female genitalia, generally designated male at birth, actually go through the process of feminizing transition. It would appear that more choose to adapt to the fluidity of their gender than to make a physical transition from one binary to the other

 

Maybe that would be a better explanation, I don't know. But to me the transgender thing, with a child who changes sex during teen years, was very odd

[M1977G]

Another question, that I'm not sure has been answered by the show (but please correct me if I'm wrong, because I really do want to know the answer):  Who killed Maya, and why?  

 

Also, in thinking it over, I'm not sure Mona's murderous attack on Bethany was that spontaneous, since MonA was already playing her game and trying to scare Ali.  I mean, that's a blatant, and elaborate, plot for revenge.  Her excuse of thinking about every mean thing Ali had said to or about her when MonA crunched Ali/Bethany's head, I dunno.  It seems like a weak excuse for murder, or even murderous rage, for a sane person.  I don't think Mona is exactly right in the head, mind you, (she did run over her bestie with a car) but this seems like more proof that she shouldn't be out and about in the world so unsupervised.

 

Last, I wanted to share something that made me LOL when I saw it online (I forget where):  Charles is an anagram.  Backwards it spells Selrahc, which makes no sense.  Just like this show.  Ha. I just LOLed again.

Edited August 13, 2015 by M1977G

[Sakura12]

Wasn't it fake cousin Nate that killed Maya? 

[DigitalCount]

That was Lyndon James, Maya's stalker from the anti-drug camp she went to. He came to Rosewood posing as her cousin Nathan and eventually fixated on/tried to kill Emily, but she managed to overpower him and shoot him dead because she is a boss.

Of course, there's something to be said about Maya being the only black character not to own a gun, but whatever. This show is ridiculous anyway.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

There is a serious problem with the writing when the show runner has to explain/rationalize things on twitter after an episode airs. Sorry, but it is COMPLETE AND UTTER BULLSHIT for Marlene to tell us that Toby and Ali were not teenagers in the almost kiss scene when the actors were clearly over the age of 10. If she's going to use that logic, why not show present day Vanessa putting present day Sasha in the bathtub? You know, for creative and visual reasons.

[insubordination]

Wouldn't be surprised if they backtracked after the backlash, and said that CeCe is not transgender and is just a lying minion. But then we'd need all the silly 'that night' explanation again. No thanks!

 

Rosewood is so weird.  There are so many citizens who want to date/stalk/menace underage girls, and multiple others who don't check which blonde they're bashing over the head with the intent to kill. There's not enough taking of pulses either.  Then there all the Radley admissions and did I mention the clothes and accessories?

Edited August 13, 2015 by insubordination

[mac123x]

My first thought was not that Charles is a boy who became woman. I don't know why, but I immediately thought of genetic disease - Non-Klinefelter XXY.

 

I was thinking something similar:  Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia. 

Female infants with classic CAH have ambiguous genitalia due to exposure to high concentrations of androgens in utero. CAH due to 21-hydroxylase deficiency is the most common cause of ambiguous genitalia in genotypically normal female infants (46XX)

 

Charles could have appeared to be a boy at birth, only for his parents to find out later that he was genetically female.  Explaining something this complex in an already exposition-heavy episode was probably too much to handle, but at least it would make the Charles-becomes-Charlotte timeline more plausible and sidestepped offending the transgender community somewhat.

[Sakura12]

They are also located in the East Coast but have West Coast weather so they can wear their fashion runway outfits. 

[raytch]

That was Lyndon James, Maya's stalker from the anti-drug camp she went to. He came to Rosewood posing as her cousin Nathan and eventually fixated on/tried to kill Emily, but she managed to overpower him and shoot him dead because she is a boss.

Of course, there's something to be said about Maya being the only black character not to own a gun, but whatever. This show is ridiculous anyway.

 

Never forget that Caleb somehow ended up with gun shot in his beautiful abs!

[raytch]

My first thought was not that Charles is a boy who became woman. I don't know why, but I immediately thought of genetic disease - Non-Klinefelter XXY.

 

47,XXY is a chromosomal arrangement where a person has 2 X chromosomes and 1 Y chromosome. The apparent majority of individuals with the XXY karyotype are males and some of those are considered to have Klinefelter syndrome. However other individuals use estrogen and identify as female (some are born with a female phenotype and with SRY negative 47,XXY) and some 47,XXYs choose to be androgynous, and use no hormone treatment. The choice of identification and hormonal or surgical treatments may follow gender identity counselling. It is not known what percentage of 47,XXYs identify as male, as female, or otherwise.

These individuals identify or choose to identify as women, take estradiol. Some of them can and have been documented as bearing children.

There is no syndrome for an XXY person who identifies female; their breasts, hips, and lack of testicular phenotype-associated features are considered normal.

A very small number of XXYs not born with female genitalia, generally designated male at birth, actually go through the process of feminizing transition. It would appear that more choose to adapt to the fluidity of their gender than to make a physical transition from one binary to the other

 

Maybe that would be a better explanation, I don't know. But to me the transgender thing, with a child who changes sex during teen years, was very odd

 

I'm sorry if I came off as rude and insensitive. I just feel that, the show should explain that, because a lot of the fandom are assuming that Cece transitioned while still a teenager and in such a short amount of time. This should be clarified because that is not the way it goes. It's a long delicate process, and you have to be 18 to start it.

Also, it does matter logistically in terms of how the story unfolds. This is my whole point, they can't backtrack on some of the most important parts of the mystery in favor of playing out this storyline, and then when people tell them it makes no sense they go like YOU DON'T GET IT.

 

Thank you for the explanation, I didn't know that.

 

Is anyone else thinking they originally wanted Wren/someone else as Charles and when he was too busy or said no or whatever reason that didn't work out they went with Cece?

I don't know... this is the only way to explain the plot holes that the finale has created.

 

I was thinking something similar:  Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia. 

 

 

Charles could have appeared to be a boy at birth, only for his parents to find out later that he was genetically female.  Explaining something this complex in an already exposition-heavy episode was probably too much to handle, but at least it would make the Charles-becomes-Charlotte timeline more plausible and sidestepped offending the transgender community somewhat.

 

I really really hope the writers listen to what people are telling them this time. For everyone's sake, they need to somehow explore this after the time jump.

[tldryolo]

That was Lyndon James, Maya's stalker from the anti-drug camp she went to. He came to Rosewood posing as her cousin Nathan and eventually fixated on/tried to kill Emily, but she managed to overpower him and shoot him dead because she is a boss.

Of course, there's something to be said about Maya being the only black character not to own a gun, but whatever. This show is ridiculous anyway.

 

Not to beat a dead horse, but the whole Maya thing is yet another example of how they're making this up as they go.

 

Remember Mona's Radley riddles, where they pulled out the first letter of each of Mona's words?  

 

"Miss

Aria

You

Are

Killer

Not

Ezra's

WIfe"

 

Back in the old days on TWOP, the "MAYA KNEW" clue drove lots of speculation.  If Mona was being truthful, then what the hell is it that Maya knew (or Mona thought she knew)?  If Mona was lying, then for what purpose and why didn't they ever follow up once Mona was out and nominally on their side?  There are, as usual, no good answers.  

[Sakura12]

I love how they say they dropped clues throughout the show. They dropped clues for EVERYONE being A throughout the show! Their clues are meaningless until they make that person A for that finale. 

 

That's why I'm going to go with everyone is A and not A at the same time. Just like Rosewood is in simultaneously existing in the past and the future. 

Edited August 13, 2015 by Sakura12

[Bort]

I love how they say they dropped clues throughout the show. They dropped clues for EVERYONE being A throughout the show! Their clues are meaningless until they make that person A for that finale.

That's why I'm going to go with everyone is A and not A at the same time. Just like Rosewood is in simultaneously existing in past and the future.

A is Schrödinger's cat.

[Jack Shaftoe]

 

I love how they say they dropped clues throughout the show. They dropped clues for EVERYONE being A throughout the show! Their clues are meaningless until they make that person A for that finale.

 

Exactly. Not to mention that clues mean shit when your main mystery hinges two people being hit on the head because of mistaken identity on the same day, four other people not realizing that those two were still alive and three of them burying the "dead people", with one even still thinking she was burying a completely different person. With the added bonus that three of the people who mistook the identity of the victims were supposed to be bona fide geniuses and the fourth was the victim's mother who was perfectly fine with letting the "murderer" get away with it. Please, explain to me how anyone could have guessed any of that? Mind you, I'm fine with the mystery aspect being complete nonsense provided the rest of the show is good but the writers act like they are crafting a masterpiece of mystery.

 

Another thing occurred to me just now - are we supposed to believe Alison never got curious where Cece was living? Weren't they supposed to be inseparable at some point. So Cece goes back to Radley every night (why did they have to include this detail anyway?!?) but Alison never suspects a thing? Sure, Marlene, sure...

Edited August 13, 2015 by Jack Shaftoe

[eXiled]

I've tried so hard to not be resentful about this show. Truly. Yet here I am, nearly as angry as I was during the Lost finale and wondering why I wasted five years on this mess.

 

This was botched so badly. It was insensitive, badly written, badly filmed, and completely without suspense.

 

Why couldn't creepy-ass Ezra or Wren be A like the stars proclaimed? The only good part of the ep was watching Emily deck the latest obstacle to Emison.

 

I guess I have no one to blame but myself. I am much too old to be watching this show without embarrassment. And yet I persist despite its nonsensical, nonlinear, non-Emison, nonsense-making craziness. I persist. Don't know if I can do it anymore.

 

I don't care that CeCe is transgender. Don't care. I care that a character I barely know, one who is less important than, say, Jenna or Melissa, is Uber A. This show blows gigantic, juicy chunks and I hate it. Not love to hate it. Straight up hate!

 

Pretty Little Liars is the Destroyer of Worlds.

[crystalflame]

That was Lyndon James, Maya's stalker from the anti-drug camp she went to. He came to Rosewood posing as her cousin Nathan and eventually fixated on/tried to kill Emily, but she managed to overpower him and shoot him dead because she is a boss.

Of course, there's something to be said about Maya being the only black character not to own a gun, but whatever. This show is ridiculous anyway.

I thought Nate had a knife that Emily managed to grab and stab him with (which is even more boss IMO), and Caleb was the dumbass who brought a gun and then left it laying around so not-dead-yet Nate could shoot him?

[DigitalCount]

I thought Nate had a knife that Emily managed to grab and stab him with (which is even more boss IMO), and Caleb was the dumbass who brought a gun and then left it laying around so not-dead-yet Nate could shoot him?

That's probably true. It's been a while since I raged over that nonsensical ending to the Maya Knew subplot. That was the first shifty-eyed dog moment on this show. "Somebody leaves in a body bag... for completely unrelated reasons"

I could have bought Lyndon getting help from Mona in finding Maya, like if she basically handed Maya over for her own purposes, but no. I don't even think they touched on the Miss Aria message in that entire arc.

[fitzcarraldo]

I've tried so hard to not be resentful about this show. Truly. Yet here I am, nearly as angry as I was during the Lost finale and wondering why I wasted five years on this mess.

This was botched so badly. It was insensitive, badly written, badly filmed, and completely without suspense.

Why couldn't creepy-ass Ezra or Wren be A like the stars proclaimed? The only good part of the ep was watching Emily deck the latest obstacle to Emison.

I guess I have no one to blame but myself. I am much too old to be watching this show without embarrassment. And yet I persist despite its nonsensical, nonlinear, non-Emison, nonsense-making craziness. I persist. Don't know if I can do it anymore.

I don't care that CeCe is transgender. Don't care. I care that a character I barely know, one who is less important than, say, Jenna or Melissa, is Uber A. This show blows gigantic, juicy chunks and I hate it. Not love to hate it. Straight up hate!

Pretty Little Liars is the Destroyer of Worlds.

This so much. I quit after the inanity of the Mona reveal. ShanA was proof they planned squat but I kept watching for the liars. Ashley and Hanna, those kinds of dynamics. But this it is ok to frame innocents for murder and hijack their lives is too much. Imk would rather pat herself on the back than do real stories of moving on from mistakes.

I mean I quit after MonA and foolishly gave pll another chance(s).

[mercfan3]

Also...and I'm just throwing it out there...was it ever confirmed that CeCe was responsible for the dollhouse? Or is Marlene about to pull a fast one/retcon that too? 

 

Because I noticed that was never mentioned in relation to CeCe..and without the dollhouse, CeCe is just as redeemable as Mona was. 

[DigitalCount]

She had to be, because Sara was her puppet.

[raytch]

A is Schrödinger's cat.

This is the best explanation anyone could ever come up with. You're a genius!

[MinionBooty]

So we have a new mystery, but with the same bad baggage. CeCe, is I doubt dead and sara is free?

 

The one I care about, Jason, I hope moved away and got loads of therapy. Of everything I have read and with all the awesome people I have discussed this show with, none of us can figure out why Jason was the one child they were willing in every way to destroy the most?

 

Did Cece blame him for staying, for mom  and dad loving him? What about mom what did she hold against him? We know dad hated him because of his paternity. But to allow her Transgender daughter to date, kiss, and whatever else with your son,while knowing the truth, is the worst of all the abuses in this family. Both knowing ly did this to him. Even with Ali it was an accident more or less. They lied to this child and told him to doubt his own mind, blamed for things that were not his as child to control and then Cece also tried to kill him .

 

I can't believe Allison at that stage in her life would not be all over every flaw she saw with Cece, friend or not. So surgery marks or things that did not add up, she would have been all over. You telling me that whole summer,  mom and Cece  never had hush hush talks? Thats during down the Allison character who at that part was  the queen Bee. And knew how to read  people and situations.

 

Sara, no matter the sob story, I could care less.  Bad Actress, bad story, bad acting, bad everything. She brings nothing to the new story but the crap form this pile.

[mercfan3]

She had to be, because Sara was her puppet.

 

They could explain that away (Or not explain it in true PLL form.) Simple as "Sara helped CeCe because CeCe helped Sara get out of the dollhouse like Bethany helped CeCe get out of Radley.."

 

I'm not saying it's a good idea..I'm just saying I didn't notice them say anything about the dollhouse...and Ali listed a whole lot of crap CeCe did to the girls, and it would be like Marlene...

Edited August 13, 2015 by mercfan3

[methodwriter85]

I mean, the trans thing has to been really brought up, but seriously do- even going past the whole "trans is evil" trope, they ALSO went with "trans woman will trick straight men into having a relationship with them", whether or not they even had sex or not. (Which I just have a hard time believing Jason and CeCe didn't have sex.)

 

It's just ridiculous that we're expected to believe that this was planned out and meant to be sensitive, when the actress was on record saying that she didn't know until early June. Like she would have any time to research what it means?

[lorikauai]

Also...and I'm just throwing it out there...was it ever confirmed that CeCe was responsible for the dollhouse? Or is Marlene about to pull a fast one/retcon that too?

Because I noticed that was never mentioned in relation to CeCe..and without the dollhouse, CeCe is just as redeemable as Mona was.

Ali said something to Cece like "You can't just kidnap them and keep them prisoner." And Cece looked into the camera and said to the Liars, "I can and did!"

[mac123x]

I mean, the trans thing has to been really brought up, but seriously do- even going past the whole "trans is evil" trope, they ALSO went with "trans woman will trick straight men into having a relationship with them", whether or not they even had sex or not. (Which I just have a hard time believing Jason and CeCe didn't have sex.

 

Were there any M Butterfly allusions this season?  Maybe Jason and CeCe did do it but she never removed her clothes and he was so high all the time that he didn't notice. 

 

I'm grasping at straws, but I really don't care.  After the TobAy back track, I gave up on this show being at all coherent.

[CloudySky]

There were only 2 viable options for me for a satisfying A: Cece and Wren. So I am satisfied, even though Wren's medical knowledge/I play with body parts/access to cadavers would have made more sense than a mental patient somehow getting her hands on those.

 

There's no way it was gonna be Toby or Ezra. The high school suspects are too young. And I didn't want yet another person to rise from the dead so Wilden was out for me.

 

Even though Cece wasn't in that many episodes, she's a character that made a splash. I remember her well and thought she was in a lot more episodes than she was apparently in. She had connections to the Dilaurentis family, to Wilden, to Ezra, to Cape May (and thus potentially Jenna), made frenemies with the liars, told epic tales,... She was weaved into the fabric of the story so even if she's only been in a dozen episodes and introduced in s3, it's not a copout imo. Besides, Marlene has always said that Mona was the A they had in mind the first 2 seasons and S3 was the beginning of a new chapter so this A didn't HAVE to be around since the beginning. It was even confirmed in this episode that Mona was Ali's only stalker so there wasn't a second, more murderous A jumping on MonA's mere taunting texts.

 

I wasn't shocked they made her transgender because I'd heard the theory before, but I was surprised they had the balls to go there. They surely must have expected this massive shitstorm and that it would overshadow whatever they were trying to sell.

 

Of course there are plotholes, but honestly I don't care because I expected this. I didn't even think about any of it like I did with past reveals. I didn't even take note of the glaring age error with regards to Toby's mom because that's how much I care about that storyline. Overall they did a better job than I expected tying it all together.

 

The one thing I was a little disappointed with was the lack of motivation for Sara, but she's still around so this can be delved into next season. I'm also over every A being a hacker genius who likes to play with her dolls. Trying to find out if Alison is alive was a decent explanation for that period of time but the rest...mehh.

 

They planted the seeds for Veronica as a suspect in Mrs. D's murder in the previous episode. I wonder if Lorenzo is the 'he' coming to arrest Alison because they finally found the 4 bodies in her basement.

 

Emily knocking out Sara out has redeemed her for this season. Spencer, take note. That is how you react when a minion tells you they were trying to keep you safe.

 

So Jason for sure went to a bar for a stiff drink or 10 as soon as he unfroze, right?

 

I never understood why Black Widow was a big deal. All she did was show up at that funeral the one time and have the burned face. Stupid, pointless loose end they had to tie up so they made Sara be both. I actually didn't want it to be Melissa because I thought Melissa's storylines was one of the few things that was tied up nicely. Her motivation for being shady as fuck all those seasons is she buried Bethany because she thought Spencer killed her. Making her black widow all of a sudden wouldn't have made sense imo.

 

I don't understand why 90% of the episodes is pointless filler leading up to the reveal and then Marlene has to do a Q&A interview to explain everything. This happens after every reveal.

 

This season was irredeemable, but the finale could have been worse. That scene with the liars smiling at the end is what I was missing this season. I agree 100% with the poster who said they sucked all of the fun out of the show.

 

Marlene said ABC family made her push back the unmasking that was supposed to be the opening scene. So basically, in an episode already short of time to explain everything they wasted 10 minutes on filler because the story couldn't start until Cece was unmasked.

 

Aww man, for a second I thought Emison might actually be together but next scene Alison is married.

[apgold]

 

I don't understand why 90% of the episodes is pointless filler leading up to the reveal and then Marlene has to do a Q&A interview to explain everything. This happens after every reveal.

 

Exactly.  I've heard that one of the rules of good storytelling is showing and not telling.  Marlene likes to show something that's up to interpretation and then explain it in an interview.  There is so much more that they could've shown in the finale by making it a 2 hour episode.  

[mercfan3]

Ali said something to Cece like "You can't just kidnap them and keep them prisoner." And Cece looked into the camera and said to the Liars, "I can and did!"

 

Okay, good. I missed that part..because I thought it was pretty noticeable it wasn't really being mentioned. I just didn't want the show to go with the retcon of all retcons. 

[william0102]

 

Were there any M Butterfly allusions this season?  Maybe Jason and CeCe did do it but she never removed her clothes and he was so high all the time that he didn't notice. 

 

What do you think he didn't notice? According to the show's piss poor explanation, CeCe transitioned, there was nothing to "notice". This is another reason why they never should have made her trans. Already there's been a few posters (out of genuine curiosity from a story standpoint, i'm not harping on anyone) that have wondered "how much" she transitioned. Unfortunately like methodwriter85 said, all it does is reinforce the trope that trans women trick straight men.

I know you guys don't mean to imply that CeCe isn't all female, but that's how it would come across if we were talking about a real person. The show had no business bringing this issue up when they have no desire to explain anything. They're already calling everyone who doesn't accept the idea transphobes instead of taking the time to actually talk about an issue they willing used for their own benefit.

[lorikauai]

Okay, good. I missed that part..because I thought it was pretty noticeable it wasn't really being mentioned. I just didn't want the show to go with the retcon of all retcons.

Considering the writers' history I still don't trust them not to do that.

[CloudySky]

I always got the impression Jason and Cece only dated for a couple of weeks so the fact that they didn't have sex or get very far isn't that farfetched. Most of that time was spent on a family vacation in close quarters with little privacy. When he got too pushy she probably ended it.

 

As for that story Mrs. D told the liars about the Ali/Cece identity switch...isn't it possible that she told them that just in case they stumbled onto Cece's name as a Radley patient? It's a plausable explanation for why Radley would have her name on record...

 

Wasn't there a spoiler that Alison hasn't been completely truthful about that night? Nothing came of that...

 

Something I still don't understand is why A wanted Garrett out of jail. Who was the person who called Emily? Mona or Cece? And why??

[fitzcarraldo]

Was that cape may vacation also when Cece dates Wilden? (or did Ali and why did they never assess this. Why did Ali think Cece killed Wilden for her?)

If Cece despaired Jessica thought she killed Ali then did she tell her when discovering Ali was alive?

Ali stayed in hiding due to danger. A kept her from going home. Yet Cece says she wanted her back?!

[MinionBooty]

For my part, I am curious in a cautious I don't want to offend anyone way. There should be a way in every honest discussion of a way to ask questions without having to worry about offending. As  long as the questions are said with respect and a real interest, then i think even an accidental slip of what is okay and not okay by someone learning should be accepted.

 

I am highly offended as a straight woman that if I didn't like this twist  it mean I have to be phobic. I didn't like this finale because it insults my intelligence.

Edited August 13, 2015 by MinionBooty

[Cranberry]

You're right, MinionBooty. There have been a few things in this thread (people calling Charlotte "a transgender" or "transgendered" when it should be simply "transgender,"  or people still calling her "him" or "Charles," or people referring to gender identity as sexual orientation, or people wondering just "how much" Charlotte has transitioned) that are technically not completely kosher, but intent matters, too. It's usually obvious when a person legitimately doesn't know the proper term or when they're genuinely curious as opposed to when they're trying to offend, and I'm glad to see that everyone so far has been in the first two categories. This discussion has been really good, and I feel like we're all learning a lot!

 

Here's the GLAAD media reference guide page for transgender issues, which is helpful when it comes to getting the language right!

[Wishing Well]

Present day is 2013, right?

Jason graduated 7 years prior, 2006.

Cape May happened in 2009, the summer Ali was bashed.

...they dated 3 years oh god

I'm going to church now bye

[raytch]

I am highly offended as a straight woman that if I didn't like this twist  it mean I have to be phobic. No, I'm offended because it insults my intelligence.

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. 

 

You're right, MinionBooty. There have been a few things in this thread (people calling Charlotte "a transgender" or "transgendered" when it should be simply "transgender,"  or people still calling her "him" or "Charles," or people referring to gender identity as sexual orientation, or people wondering just "how much" Charlotte has transitioned) that are technically not completely kosher, but intent matters, too. It's usually obvious when a person legitimately doesn't know the proper term or when they're genuinely curious as opposed to when they're trying to offend, and I'm glad to see that everyone so far has been in the first two categories. This discussion has been really good, and I feel like we're all learning a lot!

 

Here's the GLAAD media reference guide page for transgender issues, which is helpful when it comes to getting the language right!

 

Thanks for this. As I said before, I love that this finale started this kind of conversation, my only concern is that people don't know enough about the subject so they just might be jumping to conclusions. So far it's nice to see that very very few people are using an offensive language, which as Heather or Jacob said I can't remember, is a language the show started with the "he/she/it/bitch" naming in 5x25.

 

Again, I really don't want to offend anyone. I'm glad that I'm learning so much about this extremely important and sensitive topic. This forum has been like my Sesame Street for the past few days!

Seriously though, I come from a place where this is hardly ever discussed in public, and when it is, you can probably guess it's never really constructive. Also, gay people here live in constant fear of being dragged to prison and raped by hateful policemen in the process, so you can only imagine what it's like for transexuals who out themselves.

[lorikauai]

For my part, I am curious in a cautious I don't want to offend anyone way. There should be a way in every honest discussion of a way to ask questions without having to worry about offending. As  long as the questions are said with respect and a real interest, then i think even an accidental slip of what is okay and not okay by someone learning should be accepted.

 

I am highly offended as a straight woman that if I didn't like this twist  it mean I have to be phobic. No, I'm offended because it insults my intelligence.

 

Exactly. The storytelling is so incredibly flawed and the writers seem to expect us to just accept "hand wave hand wave Cece is actually Charles". They have asked us for an awful lot of suspension of disbelief up to this point but they are really pushing it here. Surgery aside (which I don't think is relevant unless the writers decide to make her Charles again) it is perfectly reasonable to question the logistics of Cece being at Radley, witnessing Marion's murder when she was still Charles or mid-transition? (assuming that was the point because it gave Wilden blackmail fodder and they didn't show Vanessa Ray in the scene and per Marlene age in flashbacks doesn't matter), transitioning, attending Rosewood High with Melissa, Ian, Garrett, and Jason (there is a photo of her in the yearbook), attending college, having conflict with Bethany and Mrs D, developing relationships with Ali, Jason, et al., being A, developing a relationship with/kidnapping? Sara, working with Ezra, ordering Mona and Toby around while shielding her identity, becoming a Wall Street genius and building the Carissimi Group, managing constant surveillance of the girls, building the assorted lairs, learning how to perform surgery and implant chips into necks and clues into Hanna's teeth, traveling to Europe, etc. Why did we never see Cece or get a hint of her at Radley if she was a patient at the same time as Mona? Would Wren know about her since he worked there? Does she live in Mona's hyperreality world? Is this actually a sci-fi show? I don't think anyone on this thread intends to offend (I certainly don't) but the how in this story is troubling. 

[mac123x]

What do you think he didn't notice? According to the show's piss poor explanation, CeCe transitioned, there was nothing to "notice". This is another reason why they never should have made her trans. Already there's been a few posters (out of genuine curiosity from a story standpoint, i'm not harping on anyone) that have wondered "how much" she transitioned. Unfortunately like methodwriter85 said, all it does is reinforce the trope that trans women trick straight men.

I know you guys don't mean to imply that CeCe isn't all female, but that's how it would come across if we were talking about a real person. The show had no business bringing this issue up when they have no desire to explain anything. They're already calling everyone who doesn't accept the idea transphobes instead of taking the time to actually talk about an issue they willing used for their own benefit.

 

Actually, no, the show never clarified when CeCe transitioned, and it's completely relevant to discuss when she had surgery because it's pertinent to the hash they've made of a plausible time line. 

 

As far as the part I bolded -- AMEN.  There have been a couple of dozen suggestions in this thread alone which would be a better explanation of why CeCe was A that didn't require her to be transgender.  Surely the writers who can come up with something amazing like the PLM scenes from last week could have done the same.