Giuliano Lanzilli August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 (edited) I assume it was a hot bath ("this always makes me feel better") - but also, CeCe said it was basically an excuse to get rid of her because Mr. D. was uncomfortable with her trans-ness. It makes sense to me, even if the larger context of the reveal is messed up. Pardon me, but how would his "trans-ness" even manifest itself at such a young age before his dad's eyes? We are to assume Charles used to play dress up IN FRONT OF HIS DAD, but they NEVER showed anything of such nature (the first time we saw him wearing women's clothes was on the roof with Bethany), so what gives? Is this another case of "tell, don't show"? Edited August 12, 2015 by Giuliano Lanzilli Link to comment
Preity August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 'He's coming for you' I'm gonna go with poor Jason hunting Ali, because he doesn't want to accidentally make out with another one of his sisters. Wach out Spencer, you're next. Seriously, how was CeCe living a normal life, going to school, dating and everything while she was actually in Radley? How did she get out of Radley permanently? I think I missed that... I don't mind her being A, but the story seems so made up. It feels so forced, even if you ignore all the plot holes. I don't feel sorry for CeCe, I don't get why anyone does and I don't believe her feeling sorry and being innocent. Clearly she is messed up, almost killing people is fine.... Because it was almost? She would never do anything really bad to them? So she what?.... Planend to ALMOST kill them every time? Right... Sara as red coat is stupid, a let down and quite frankly an insult to the fans who have been watching the show for 6 years. I don't really care about the transgender storyline either way. I would have been fine without it, but after everything we have been through with this show it just feels like another letdown sidestory, ready to be forgotten. The writing, directing and editing was terrible on this Episode. All the good old characters like Jenna, Noel, Lucas, even Andrew, are apparently completely irrelevant.... I still have so many questions about so many characters, but most of all.... why on earth would Ian kill himself???? Really, you couldn't think of a answer to that Mystery? What's next? Mrs D. tripped and her death was an accident? Come on... You can do better than that. If not, there are so many great theories online, just copy one of those. This was THE worst Episode for me. One of those episodes so bad they really make you question whether you want to continue watching at all. Love Mona though! 3 Link to comment
itainttippithebird August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 I don't think those of us who see problems with this plotline from a transgender rights perspective are "offended out of hand." That's a little condescending and dismissive - there are lots of reasons to be uncomfortable with this depiction. Just because you don't agree with them or know them doesn't mean we're being "out of hand" or jumping to judgment. Please know that many of us have spent a lot of time thinking about the repercussions of poor trans representation in media and even about the possibility of this plotline - which a lot of us saw coming since the dollhouse. 14 Link to comment
gesundheit August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 I'm sure Aria was going to SCAD, Savannah College of Art & Design. They have a good writing program. I assumed SCAD for photo. Hoping that's the direction she took. 3. CeCe is transgendered and also crazy. She's not crazy because she's transgendered. Like I said, I think establishing that (which they did) and also being the lgbt friendly show that it is, a transgendered character being A isn't that harmful. This show has been LGB-friendly and has addressed the T in no way until last night's mess, so I can't agree that it's earned any benefit of the doubt on that front. You guys are impressive! I absorbed about 5% of the plot over the years because the sameness of the episodes made me lose track (Liars go to a dark location to look for clues or because of a threat, are locked in, barely get out, repeat). I'd even forgotten who Bethany was. I did remember who CeCe was and has suspected she might be A, but thought it would be just as ridiculous as anyone else. I feel like they answered a few questions in a clever manner that actually tracks, but there are literally THOUSANDS of questions, and... this just doesn't work. Though I don't know what would. The nonsensical motive (toward the Liars, particularly) in addition to the total lack of explanation for how she came to be a Machiavellian super-villain millionaire were the most hollow parts for me. 3 Link to comment
itainttippithebird August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 (edited) but how would his "trans-ness" even manifest itself at such a young age before his dad's eyes? It makes sense to me that her dad would have sensed something was going on with her, especially after catching her playing dress up - in a lot of trans peoples' narratives about coming out, they talk about their parents having an intuitive sense/fear about the trans-ness. And that's what CeCe ultimately says - Mr D. feared something was "wrong" with CeCe and used this as an excuse to (consciously or unconsciously) write her off as mentally ill and then absolve himself of his negative feelings about her femininity. Edited August 12, 2015 by itainttippithebird 1 Link to comment
MinionBooty August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 Cece Doesn't bother me as A. I can buy it. She was always in the top running for being on the A team. I would have like Ezra or even Wren. Her REASONS for attacking the girls blow. They did nothing and if she was watching she would have seen them fighting to find her sister and once she was alive to bring her home. What did she want Ali to listen to??? She never reached out but to torment her and the girls. Having Mona know so much and never tell, but always feel sad when confronted, was anti-thetical to the character. The trans idea just seems to come out of left field and makes me feel its more there because of Bruce Jenner. I have issue because even with he all the weird brainwashing of Jason, he would have remembered his imaginary friend liked dresses and tea parties more then tonka trucks and g.i.joe. Cede chose to hurt her brother is a way he could never recover from, for reasons she never bothered to mention. Having Sara be anything more then a minion or broken girl was the worst step. She sneered, whined, lied and her only point on the show seemed to be to get in bed with Emily. No motive. And now on top of this fraktastic ep , we are supposed to be happy to look forward to having to care about Sara and her sad reasons next year? Once you have killed, driven a car through someones house, locked them in coffins, scared the crap out of them, stripped them naked, tortured, messed with their families, kidnapped, drugged, gassed and almost frozen someone, I don't care what your preferred sexual identity is or how you blame others, you are evil. You made you choices and need to be locked up for life. 5 Link to comment
Giuliano Lanzilli August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 (edited) It makes sense to me that her dad would have sensed something was going on with her, especially after catching her playing dress up - in a lot of trans peoples' narratives about coming out, they talk about their parents having an intuitive sense/fear about the trans-ness. And that's what CeCe ultimately says - Mr D. feared something was "wrong" with CeCe and used this as an excuse to (consciously or unconsciously) write her off as mentally ill and then absolve himself of his negative feelings about her femininity. But that's assuming he EVEN caught him playing dress up, which is up for grabs because nothing to this extent ever played out on screen! Edited August 12, 2015 by Giuliano Lanzilli Link to comment
itainttippithebird August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 But that's assuming he EVEN caught her playing dress up, which is up for grabs because they nothing to this extent ever played out on screen! Why can't we take the character's word for it? We do all the time on this show. CeCe says it happened, there's no reason to suspect it didn't, at this point. 2 Link to comment
Nico25 August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 Two things, the one maybe i am wrong. 1 - If Jason and Charles are twins and Jason father is Spencer´s fahter, does not that mean Spencer and Charles are brothers? 2- We can see Charles being taller than Jason, so why in the future Jason is so tall and Charles so short? Just because he is now a girl? Link to comment
Giuliano Lanzilli August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 Why can't we take the character's word for it? We do all the time on this show. CeCe says it happened, there's no reason to suspect it didn't, at this point. She only said it happened, she didn't say anything about her dad walking in on him/her when it did!!! And, forgive me, but it's kind of important, because that's what his parents'decision of kicking him out of the house hinges on! If Kenneth had never caught Charles playing dress up he would never have been able to use that as an excuse to send him to Radley, so Cece never saying he busted her and Marlene never showing such a scene IS A PROBLEM to that extent! Link to comment
itainttippithebird August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 Oh - maybe I wasn't paying close enough attention because I was midst rage-stroke, but I definitely thought she mentioned that he knew about it. 1 Link to comment
KimberleyJade321 August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 I wasn't mad at the ending until I realized there was a massive pothole in the story line. The time lines to not add up! Let me explain... Marion Cavanaugh died in 2007. Toby was born in 1994 so he must have been 13 at the time. Charles/CeCe is one year older that Toby meaning he was 14 when Marion was pushed off the roof by Bethany. CeCe told us that after everyone believed he killed Marion that he spent the next to years on tranquilizers drowning in his own drool. This means that Charles/CeCe was on drugs from 2007-2009 Allison went missing in 2009. We know that CeCe was there that night as she was the one who hit Allison. However, if the timelines were correct, Charles/CeCe would still be in Radley drugged up and still identifying as male as it was only after the two years of being on tranquilizers that she transitioned into Charlotte. I am sooooo disappointed that the story had so many potholes. There were more as well but this one was the biggest shocker! Link to comment
Giuliano Lanzilli August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 Oh - maybe I wasn't paying close enough attention because I was midst rage-stroke, but I definitely thought she mentioned that he knew about it. Ah you're right... she says "Dad found out". A stupid 3-letter throwaway line was the answer! XD Link to comment
MinionBooty August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 We can't take the word for it because this character was crazy. Her rational for everything was because her dad didn't like her to dress up. And she like to play with dolls. And loved ali. Except her love wasn't love. Her views on her dad are all through her point of view. They are a view of a confused child, controlled by a crazy mother who did unthinkable things. He saved the baby. No matter if it was an accident of not. Charlie was just watching the baby either drawn/ burn and not calling for help. There was already something wrong about that child. She at that time was showing no remorse or really any emotion. Even at that age those are warning signs, no matter sexual or identity issues. Just as children have identity and sexual issues, so do parents, and I do think the show rather negligent in showing how Dad dealt with those , except to show form CeCE's viewpoint. I think having the Liars jump to the sympathy and only believing Cece's point view on the bathtub issue was also not very realistic to the characters. Cece has shown she has no real care for her family members except how she feels it relates to her. Her dad hated her, her mother loved her, Jason...we still got no reason why she hated him, and Ali was her perfect doll. Her love was not love. I don't think anything she says can be taken as truthful. Whats the say? There is three sides to every story. Her side, His side and then the truth. 2 Link to comment
itainttippithebird August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 (edited) CeCe says, "For as long as I can remember, I asked mom to buy me dresses, but he wouldn't let her." - so he knew she was interested in dresses. "So I used to play dress up in her closet - she thought it was cute. But dad found out..." - so he knew about that, too. [Edited to add: Oh, sorry, I see you also double checked this, Giuliano!] Edited August 12, 2015 by itainttippithebird 1 Link to comment
DigitalCount August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 Why can't we take the character's word for it? We do all the time on this show. CeCe says it happened, there's no reason to suspect it didn't, at this point.I have to say most of what Charlotte said was suspect. Her account of nearly killing Ali didn't match up with what we saw happening and the near murderous glee in her eyes suggested that she was full of it. Plus, it's hard to give her the benefit of the doubt when she's an out-of-touch psychotic time-traveler. 6 Link to comment
KimberleyJade321 August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 And the finale didn't really conclude it for me like who killed Mrs D? And did their mums ever get out of the basement? Now we've jumped five years ahead and just forgotten about the rest of the story! 1 Link to comment
larapu2000 August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 out-of-touch psychotic time-traveler If this were a TV show, I would totally watch it. 1 Link to comment
DigitalCount August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 (edited) If this were a TV show, I would totally watch it.Doctor Who series 4? Edited August 12, 2015 by DigitalCount 2 Link to comment
KimberleyJade321 August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 But seriously, where did she get all that futuristic, hologram stuff? 2 Link to comment
lorikauai August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 I never trust any of the characters' accounts of anything. Any of that could be rewritten at any time based on the whims of the writers. My biggest issue with Cece as A (aside from the massive plot holes in the logistics and timing) is her absence from most of the show. She had almost no interaction with the PLL and we the audience hadn't seen her enough to really feel anything for her at all. And her partner was merely annoying. This should have been a huge betrayal to the girls. I half-expected Aria to be like "Who's that again?" Cece with a partner in Mona, Toby, Ezra, Wren, anyone closer to the girls would have been more compelling. And I hate that after these finales Marlene has to answer all these extra questions because she "didn't have time" in that one episode. Um, what about the other 9 episodes this season before that one? Ugh good thing I've basically been hate-watching since she redeemed EzrA. 6 Link to comment
KimberleyJade321 August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 My biggest issue with Cece as A (aside from the massive plot holes in the logistics and timing) is her absence from most of the show. She had almost no interaction with the PLL and we the audience hadn't seen her enough to really feel anything for her at all. completely agree. It's like the writers were thinking hmmm.. who could we have as A? Oh what about that blonde girl that from like season 4 that everyone has forgotten about... what was her name again Charlotte or CeCe or something... 2 Link to comment
lorikauai August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 Oh and what was Cece's intention for framing Ali for Mona's murder? Was it so when Cece went down for Wilden's they could be cell mates and braid each other's hair? 2 Link to comment
MinionBooty August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 We could have cut The last three eps of this season. Had Cece unmasked and then for the finale have each character honestly tell what they remember and felt. Starting with Dad, Jason, Ali, Cece, Sara, the girls, the moms and so on. Let them all catch on because of things they remembered honestly, but this time with the whole story and other pieces to compliment. 1 Link to comment
GaT August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 I still can't get over the fact that CeCe had her own private cellular network in Rosewood. The tech in this episode was beyond stupid. How did Cece do all these things? Where did she get the money? I'm not even sure she graduated high school, yet we're supposed to believe she's such a financial & tech wizard that she made a ton of money investing, & knew how to set up all that tech. Oh, and also, Mona, they've shown that she's a techy, but come on, she knew how to work that whole system without even pausing to think. The whole thing is ridiculous. Looking back, it sure is a good thing that the PLLs didn't check Sara to see if she was chipped -- since the answer would likely have been no, and would have raised questions why she wasn't chipped. Emily did. When Sara was sleeping she checked the back of her neck & didn't find anything. Then they kissed. 3 Link to comment
MinionBooty August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 Honestly, who DIDN't suspect Sara was an A teamer? Just cause Emily got the stupid brain this season, doesn't mean the fans did. 5 Link to comment
the eskimo August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 IS it wrong that I'm still holding out hope for EzrA? Maybe that's the "he" from the preview. He did work with CeCe and hire her, and he conveniently didn't notice her all that time that he was watching the girls. It could still happen! And now he's mad that Ali took his job teaching English at Rosewood HS! I enjoyed the finale on some level, but agree with all of the massive plot holes and timeline issues. I couldn't make the connection between the sympathetic but somewhat crazy CeCe we saw in the episode with the calm, psychotic A we've seen over the last few seasons. 3 Link to comment
Giuliano Lanzilli August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 I wasn't mad at the ending until I realized there was a massive pothole in the story line. The time lines to not add up! Let me explain... Marion Cavanaugh died in 2007. Toby was born in 1994 so he must have been 13 at the time. Charles/CeCe is one year older that Toby meaning he was 14 when Marion was pushed off the roof by Bethany. Where did you get that info? Wiki? Link to comment
Jack Shaftoe August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 Can we get back to Cece hearing about how much Mona hated Alison and concluding, most bizarrely, that this was great fun that she needed to join in? And claiming she loved Alison all along, nevertheless? Because Ezra's infamous book story starts to seem well written in comparison to this utter nonsense. If this were a TV show, I would totally watch it. Ever tried Continuum? 2 Link to comment
Sakura12 August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 Maybe they should look back at the reactions when Toby was A or Ezra was A compared to CeCe as A. Those were much more positive and accepted despite them being main love interests. I was happy when it was Toby, then disappointed when that was taken back. I was beyond thrilled when it was Ezra and again disappointed when that was taken back. Now I'm just disappointed with CeCe being A, which could mean I'll be happy when that is taken back. Is that what they are going for, so this stupid show can go on FOREVER! 2 Link to comment
itainttippithebird August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 (edited) In the Halloween episode, The First Secret, we see Emily talking to Toby next to a moving truck. Jenna and her mom are moving in because Toby's dad got remarried. Toby says to Emily that it's the one year anniversary of his mom's death the week before. In a title card at the beginning of the episode, we see it's Halloween, 2008. Meaning that Mrs. Cavanaugh died the third week in October 2007. In October 2007, the liars were freshman in high school, and if CeCe is about 5 years older than them, then CeCe should have been about 19/20 years old already. (And obviously, the kid playing CeCe on the roof was NOT 19/20, so this is a glaring continuity problem.) [Edited to add: Wait, in October 2007, the liars were in 8th grade. STILL, CeCe is too young in last night's flashback.] Edited August 12, 2015 by itainttippithebird 3 Link to comment
crystalflame August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 Can we get back to Cece hearing about how much Mona hated Alison and concluding, most bizarrely, that this was great fun that she needed to join in? And claiming she loved Alison all along, nevertheless? Because Ezra's infamous book story starts to seem well written in comparison to this utter nonsense. This I didn't understand. Maybe since Mona was drugged up and thought Cece WAS Alison, Cece didn't figure out that Mona hated Alison's guts until she was already hooked on the game/found out Alison might be alive? Link to comment
Black Knight August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 One thing I really liked about the rooftop scene where the PLLs try to talk CeCe out of jumping was how very in character their individual appeals were. Note that I don't see what they said as being representative of how they feel towards CeCe themselves - they were trying to talk her out of jumping, so they said whatever they thought might work on CeCe, which is a different thing. I am sure Spencer, for instance, has no interest in having the game continue. Emily - emotional appeal not to hurt Ali Spencer - appealed to CeCe's intelligence/enjoyment of mental activities (the game) Hanna - said they understood Aria - essentially appealed to CeCe's self-centered goals (trying to get back to her family) Heh. I'm not sure Emison is dead. Yeah, I'll go down with this ship (and my Ashley/Emily one - hey Ashley, Emily is no longer a minor, so get to it!). Ali may not be married, of if she is, most of the marriages on this show have fallen apart spectacularly. (It's basically just Emily's parents who are still trucking along, right?) Heck, she might be married to a woman (it's 2017 in show time now, right? And I can see Ali wanting to drop the DiLaurentis name). The idea might be to make her someone worthy of Emily after spending the last five years proving that she's no longer a bully, etc. The show does still throw in little crumbs to the Emison fans (including in this episode where Emily said she was going to go get Ali, and their handholding at the end), so, we'll see... Emily punching Sara almost made up for a half season of that nonsense. 1 Link to comment
Cranberry August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 I really appreciate you and others mentioning their ages. I am a 32 year old man and an ex got me into this ridiculous show. The romance faded, but the Addiction remained. I'm enjoying people mentioning their ages, too! Most of my friends who watch this show are around my age (34), so I'm not surprised that the audience is not all teenagers, but it's still fun to see just how many of us adults still follow this show. DigitalCount, I think you're misreading the Ezra/Toby people. Nobody is saying, I don't think, that they should have been Charles. They are saying that Charles is a concept that never existed. Even if the online crowd was suspicious of Ezra from day one, it would have been far better story-wise if it was revealed he was A and got obsessed with the liars in the course of writing his book. I would have been perfectly happy if my original prediction had been true, which was that Ezra was a narcissistic asshole who wanted to write the next great American novel but had no real talent, so had to set all of these events in motion and then just write about them as they happened. He's rich, so he could have funded it; we already know he's a pretentious writer; he's always been shady; he's definitely the type to insert himself as a love interest in his own novel... it would have worked fine for me. It actually would have been pretty meta if he ended up writing a book series about these girls, and we all know how much these writers love their meta. 5 Link to comment
jjjmoss August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 (edited) How did Charlotte and Sara Harvey know each other? How did Sara get involved? Well, some of that is mystery moving forward as we make the time jump so I can’t really tell you that much about it. So MArlene changed from "There are no more questions to be answered after the finale" to "Here are a bunch of questions I'm answering in this EW article. Oh, but there's ONE question unanswered, about who killed Jessica" to "Oh wait, there's at least two questions, about Sara's involvement. I swear, it's just two? Who knows, like I watch this show." Typical MArlene. I don’t re-watch episodes very often. Lol, another interview basically confirming what I said. PLL is actually amazingly young skewing. The median age is 21, 8 years younger than the average ABCF show and even 2 years younger than MTV. Some others to compare: Bravo's avg age is 42, E's is 34, ESPN's is 41. The youngest network show is Family Guy at 33 years old, and the ONLY CW show under 40 years old is Vampire Diaries at 36. Edited August 12, 2015 by jjjmoss 1 Link to comment
WhosThatGirl August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 I think my only issue with the Transgender aspect and I think I said this earlier was that the show wanted us to feel for "A" and there had to have been a reason for why A is the way A is. And I guess, this fits the bill, because Mr. D didn't accept it and because of this, it's why Charles now Cece acted the way she did and it excuses all the things she has done. But does it? Like, Cece saying, "I never really hurt my dolls! I didn't let them die. I almost did" is okay because she's transgender and misunderstood? No. It is NOT okay that she tormented four girls. Its not okay at all. I mean, look, there are some things that are clearly not Charles/Cece's fault. I'm unsure about the bathroom incident because at first it did seem accidental but on rewatch, the child does seem to have no indication of being shameful for what happened, so I'm unsure. Toby's mom clearly wasn't Charles/Ceces fault either. The Ali stuff was an accident too, I guess but.. whatever. And I guess anything done to the girls in seasons 1-2 was all Mona. But then the following seasons, it was Cece masterminding the game and providing the tools for the torture that the girls were going through. There is no excuse for this behavior. Also Cece isn't mentally sick, she's a psychopath. She knows full well what she is doing I always knew I would never feel bad for A To me, A has always seemed very aware of how to hurt the girls and competent enough to know. So the Transgender aspect was only added to make us understand why Cece is the way she is. The girls honestly didn't have anything to do with what happened to her and in return what she accidentally did to Ali and they did miss Ali. In fact, if what Cece states is true, she was told by Mona they were happy Ali was gone, IMHO, to me, they seemed to miss her more in the first two seasons. It was the later seasons when Cece took the reins that the girls started to realize Ali was not the greatest person and they started to question the things she did. But all the same, they weren't happy. They were trying to get Ian convicted because they thought he killed her, Spencer almost died on the bell tower, Hanna got run over, and they went to jail. So, I don't know... I guess Mona could have spinned that to Cece when she was all drugged up. But who the hell knows. At the end of the day, I don't even understand Cece's motives. She loved Ali so much, Ali was her doll. She was taken away from her doll and wanted to hurt the people who were keeping her from her doll. Granted at the start the liars had no involvement in this. But whatever. But then Ali tried to use this logic that the liars weren't the ones who put her away and she tried to hurt the liars but then Cece was all, "the liars are my dolls too! Did they die? No. I love all my dolls equally I WOULD NEVER ACTUALLY HURT THEM!" so, she loved the liars too and her plan was to never actually hurt them? So, she loved the liars too? Its kind of confusing. Oh wow. I think I should start. This turned into a long post. But a lot of things don't quite make sense and it bothers me. 1 Link to comment
william0102 August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 The thing is we can't assume that anything CeCe/Charlotte says is the truth because she's A (and not Uber A in my opinion). I think people want to assume she's telling the truth because 1, it makes this trans storyline easier to ignore and the implications of it being 'wrong' to be trans- because CeCe is A, A is a villain, the fact that she's trans "shouldn't matter".2,if she's not telling the truth about Kenneth and her reasons, then basically the show lied to us all again and she's a crazy psychopath. Both of these are things have troubling/important.Regarding point 1, if CeCe is just a villain, then the show can't be accountable for making it's trans representation psychotic. It also gives transphobic people validation that they're inherently 'right' about trans individuals being "unnatural and wrong". Which also leads into the show using a character as trans for the shock value, without actually wanting to address what being trans actually is. (As others have pointed out, there is no way CeCe could have transitioned that fast because it takes years to do so, least of all been deemed mentally fit to actually transition.) They did nothing to explain CeCe's transness other then a few throw away lines and blame it all on Kenneth, that is not good because then it just leaves viewers to think that CeCe's identity as a woman isn't valid, because she was locked up/ Radley made her crazy and trans. And obviously CeCe becoming crazy after she transitioned implies that all people who transition are crazy in some way. They didn't have to make CeCe trans, they didn't add any real backstory to actually build the fact that CeCe had transitioned or explain her actions for being A- you can call it poor storytelling (which it is) but it makes trans people look bad.On point 2, if CeCe isn't telling the truth, and she's playing the liars, then she is full on psycho. And again, you run into the problem of a trans character being a trope, and again, not a three dimensional character, she's basically a plot device. That isn't right to trans people, or to the audience who deserves a great enemy in what A has been built up to be these last 6 seasons.Did no one else flashback to Silence of the Lambs at all during this episode? That was all I could think about whenever CeCe was talking/looking in the mirror, and it was made even worse when I remembered Mona being thrown in the pit back in the first couple episodes. Maybe that reference doesn't mean much to people that aren't trans or lgb, but for those that are and have been called "t*****" "he/she" or "it", it reminded them of something dark- this is another instance of a trans character being sold as something "other" and not having the same 'worth" as everyone else.I really don't think people being blase and saying that CeCe being trans has nothing to do with her being A is okay. Her being trans and psychotic is a representation. Whether you want to say it's a positive one or not doesn't exclude that someone who is not trans made a trans character without considering the ramifications of how it would impact actual trans people. And I get the urge to shrug it off, it's PLL, it's "summer fun" but when there is no representation, then it is important. When it hurts or invalidates portions of your audience, or just plain skips over the opportunity to share what being trans is, then it is important. If you personally feel like CeCe being trans doesn't matter, then okay, but if there's someone who is upset, please take a moment to consider why, or just ask them, instead of continuing to say it doesn't matter when it obviously does matter to some people. Link to comment
Perfect Xero August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 That scene of Cece meeting Jason covered that, she was in the middle of sitting for a yearbook photo. I guess the high school has no problem with putting people in the yearbook that don't go to the school. Her yearbook entry also says that she was Prom Queen and in the Drama and Debate clubs. 1 Link to comment
tldryolo August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 Reddit has a plot hole super thread which is absolutely devastating: https://www.reddit.com/r/PrettyLittleLiars/comments/3gogy0/plot_hole_super_thread_spoilers_for_finale/ My favorite part: The below clip with Mrs. D relating an Ali/CeCe anecdote is completely inexplicable, whether or not it's true, because all it would have done (and did) is send the PLL's chasing after CeCe Drake at Radley... which is the last thing she would have wanted. So as of 4x10 they didn't know it was CeCe. 2 Link to comment
Lingo August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 I don't watch this show, but these women look like they're dressed up for an epic night of Magic: The Gathering. 3 Link to comment
tldryolo August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 I don't watch this show, but these women look like they're dressed up for an epic night of Magic: The Gathering. It's too late for us, but get out now and save yourself. Trust me, you want no part of this mAdness. 3 Link to comment
WhosThatGirl August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 I don't watch this show, but these women look like they're dressed up for an epic night of Magic: The Gathering. This is the best comment. I agree with the comment above, you should not get into this show but your comment made me think that I wonder if someone just watched a random episode of this show what would their comments be on it;. That would be fun. 2 Link to comment
Sakura12 August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 (edited) I don't watch this show, but these women look like they're dressed up for an epic night of Magic: The Gathering. Would you believe those are similar their every day outfits. Edited August 12, 2015 by Sakura12 3 Link to comment
tldryolo August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 Would you believe those are similar their every day outfits. I have no idea what you're talking about. 2 Link to comment
Perfect Xero August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 (edited) In the Halloween episode, The First Secret, we see Emily talking to Toby next to a moving truck. Jenna and her mom are moving in because Toby's dad got remarried. Toby says to Emily that it's the one year anniversary of his mom's death the week before. In a title card at the beginning of the episode, we see it's Halloween, 2008. Meaning that Mrs. Cavanaugh died the third week in October 2007. In October 2007, the liars were freshman in high school, and if CeCe is about 5 years older than them, then CeCe should have been about 19/20 years old already. (And obviously, the kid playing CeCe on the roof was NOT 19/20, so this is a glaring continuity problem.) [Edited to add: Wait, in October 2007, the liars were in 8th grade. STILL, CeCe is too young in last night's flashback.] Charles/Charlotte is older than that though. Charles is 2 years older than Jason, and Jason is part of the Melissa/Ian generation which is around 7 years older than the Liars. ETA: Charles/Charlotte is only 1 year older than Jason. Edited August 12, 2015 by Perfect Xero 1 Link to comment
itainttippithebird August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 (edited) I think Charles is only 1 year older than Jason (15 months, so a year and some change), but yes, if the gap between Alison and Jason is 7 years, then still, all the more to the point! Edited August 12, 2015 by itainttippithebird 1 Link to comment
itainttippithebird August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 (edited) Did no one else flashback to Silence of the Lambs at all during this episode? That was all I could think about whenever CeCe was talking/looking in the mirror, and it was made even worse when I remembered Mona being thrown in the pit back in the first couple episodes. Yeah, I made the same connection upthread last night. It was that moment - her looking in the mirror and admiring her own beauty (in the context of saying something about how of course Jason was in love with her because she's so pretty) - that I felt there was no redeeming the harm of this plot point. I also wondered (again, somewhere upthread) of that moment was INTENDED as an allusion to Silence of the Lambs, and if so, how they could POSSIBLY think, then, that this is a defendable representation of trans women! So basically, yes, co-signed, and I don't know why queer critics like Heather Hogan, Jacob Clifton, etc aren't MORE pissed about this turn of the events. It's irredeemable, in my eyes, and believe me, I've been TRYING to find some redemption, because I love this show with all my heart. Edited August 12, 2015 by itainttippithebird 1 Link to comment
Jack Shaftoe August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 (edited) Something else occurred to me just now - so Cece hears Mona's confession which presumably included the not so insignificant detail that Alison was actually alive. Instead of concentrating on that and escaping Radley in an attempt to find her, she concentrates on stealing Mona's game. Come on! If we are supposed to buy at least partially her sob story they really should have emphasized more on Cece finding Alison was alive and the guilt she (probably) felt for "murdering" her. So basically, yes, co-signed, and I don't know why queer critics like Heather Hogan, Jacob Clifton, etc aren't MORE pissed about this turn of the events. Jacob is still writing about PLL? I miss his recaps so much. Edited August 12, 2015 by Jack Shaftoe 3 Link to comment
itainttippithebird August 12, 2015 Share August 12, 2015 Jacob is still writing about PLL? I miss his recaps so much. Occasionally - on tumblr and twitter. He has a tumblr post about last night's ep. Link to comment
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