S01.E02: The Road Trip - Part 1

[Tara Ariano]

Part 1 of 2. Cait is thrilled to be on a road trip with a group of her new transgender friends, but they question if her privileged status hinders her from becoming their spokesperson.

[nexxie]

So glad they brought Jen, the professor, into this - she is good for bringing Cait down to earth and into the reality of life for other trans people. She sort of acts as a bridge with her calm, intellectual approach.

Edited August 3, 2015 by nexxie

[EarlGreyTea]

Love love loooove Candis Cayne (Ms. Hudson on Elementary!). Her blue dress in that dinner scene was to die for. So gorgeous. If it's true she is dating Cait, Cait really lucked out.

 

This was a really good episode. A bit hard to watch at times but so important for people to understand how privileged Cait is, not least of all herself. I'm glad in the dinner scene that she mostly stayed silent and let the other women speak about the very real struggles faced by trans people, particularly minorities. I did sense resentment from some of the other women because of Cait's relatively easy transition (comparably speaking) and I'm glad that wasn't glossed over. They have a right to be a little bitter and I'm glad minority women were given a voice this episode. Cait IS the main spokesperson now for trans people, like it or not, so I hope she's taking copious notes and trying to understand as much as she can.

 

Agreed on Jennifer Boylan. What a great, down to earth, sensible woman. I'd kill to take one of her classes.

 

Cait's assistant borders on the annoying.

Edited August 3, 2015 by EarlGreyTea

[freeradical]

I'm hoping she's learning that she has been in a financial bubble during her transition. I don't know if she'll change her conservative political views but maybe gain some understanding of how very hard it would be to transition without her money and access to great doctors. On the other hand I do hope her trans peers can try to understand what it would be like to be a famous sports legend publicly transitioning with the world watching.

Edited August 3, 2015 by barbaralewis

[Katydid]

Are the assistants always with her? Agree they are a bit annoying. I also noticed that in the interview segments the camera focuses on hands...a lot. Not just Caitlyn's, but I noticed they did it with the other ladies as well.

[Mya Stone]

I want to take all the classes JBo offers.

I genuinely like Cait and think she's a good person. But she's been in such a bubble. It'd be so easy for her to live in her bubble, but instead, she's immersing herself in her community and trying. I give her credit for that, even though it's got to be hard for her to understand these struggles, having been able to avoid most all of them due to her privilege.

I think it would be a great thing if she could start a halfway house for transitioning women to stay at - it would be like what her Malibu house is/was to her. A safe place. A haven. A sanctuary.

Her constant obsessing over her voice was, in my opinion, her way of attempting to show the women that she is struggling, too. I understand it, but it really seems so petty and trite compared to the others' stories.

[Cosmic Muffin]

I liked that Caitlyn trotted out the old chestnut about how if people receive assistance then they'll want to remain on assistance rather than moving on, and I hope that she really gets that for trans people the barriers to moving on can be insurmountable, or nearly insurmountable. I'm glad to see Jennifer Finney-Boylan voicing many of the concerns raised on this forum.I hope Caitlyn really does learn about life for everyone without her privilege. I wonder if she will still be a Republican when things settle down? I'd think that trans and Republican would be a small group. A good episode. I love Jennifer F-B and her books, too. Really happy to see her have a platform here.

[SmithW6079]

I also noticed that in the interview segments the camera focuses on hands...a lot. Not just Caitlyn's, but I noticed they did it with the other ladies as well.

Which, unfortunately, reminds me of the "Seinfeld" episode when Jerry dated the girl who had "man hands," and they did close-up shots of her hands cracking open a lobster.

I liked the dinner scenes, but I don't think it's fair to judge Caitlyn just because she has money to make her transition easier.

I also think that it's not for anyone -- trans or not -- to judge what being a woman means to Jenner. Maybe for her it is about clothes and make-up and hair styles.

[Starchild]

Are the assistants always with her? Agree they are a bit annoying.

The younger one really seems to love the lifestyle that goes along with being a personal service provider to a high-powered celebrity. And the older one looked a little jealous that she might be losing her private friend to a new crowd. Sorry, I don't remember their names.

 

As for Cait being a potential spokesperson for the community? I'm having doubts that she's up to it at the moment. Perhaps she'll eventually find the intellectual depth and activist courage it's going to take, but it's going to really shake up her ivory tower if she decides to let it in.

[Kromm]

so important for people to understand how privileged Cait is, not least of all herself. I'm glad in the dinner scene that she mostly stayed silent and let the other women speak about the very real struggles faced by trans people, particularly minorities.

If she learns one LESSON, it has to be this one.  Mouth closed, ears open.  So far, so good (well, on this show--in "real life" we've yet to see).

[Human]

Not going to lie, there were some very triggery moments in this episode.  But I'm really glad that its not all about Cait.  I have been ignoring my own concerns about an incredibly privileged politically conservative person becoming my spokesperson.  It was really great how this episode laid out all of the reasons why Caitlyn can be so damaging to my community while also showing ways that Cait and people like her can educate themselves and improve how they treat the disadvantaged.

 

Best quote: "I feel like I'm losing IQ points."  Me too, Jenny B, me too.  It really highlights the privilege when they have Caitlyn with her make up team and bodyguards and personal assistants and talking about getting surgeries as though it's as easy as buying a new pair of low-cost shoes.  I definitely feel I lose IQ points every time those assistants come on.  They are annoying.  And that gossiping jealousy....seriously?  Why did this make it to air?  I'm also really concerned about where those golf balls went.  I saw other houses down below.  What if she breaks a window?  Does she hire someone to go pick them up or does is she just perfectly fine with littering?   Or are the balls biodegradable?  I hope there are real answers to this because it just disturbed me so much that she was just chucking golf balls off the mountain.   

 

 

I'm so looking forward to the second part of this road trip.  It's incredibly upsetting to hear Cait parroting the disgusting GOP rhetoric about those who access social services, especially when it concerns a very vulnerable population.  As stated already, she needs to have ears open, mouth closed.  

Edited August 3, 2015 by Human

[Starchild]

I did notice how she started to defend herself when the trans person of colour was telling her story and getting agitated. And how Jennifer subtly tried to get her to "STFU, this is not the time."

[bagatelle]

Her constant obsessing over her voice was, in my opinion, her way of attempting to show the women that she is struggling, too. I understand it, but it really seems so petty and trite compared to the others' stories.

 

That wasn't my impression. I think Cait, at the moment, is all about the superficial. She wants to look as feminine as possible and sound as feminine as possible, which is understandable, really. Unfortunately, she sounds so trivial when hanging with her new group of friends.

 

I'm so glad they included Jennifer Finney Boylan and Jen Richards,  This show needs to add some substance. 

[Kromm]

In a way it would be a scream if this whole show turned out to be a (probably unintentional) setup for Caitlyn to show her own somewhat ugly political (and to a large degree social) beliefs.

 

But I can forgive a lot if, as I've said elsewhere, she just gets out of the way whenever possible and lets other people talk. It's not that Cait Jenner doesn't have a story to tell. It's just that it's not necessarily a story that does anyone else any good, other than as an access point for other stories.

[Cosmocrush]

I'm so looking forward to the second part of this road trip.  It's incredibly upsetting to hear Cait parroting the disgusting GOP rhetoric about those who access social services, especially when it concerns a very vulnerable population.  As stated already, she needs to have ears open, mouth closed.  

I'm not so sure Cait was parroting anything; there's no reason not to think she really believes what she said.  Her politics aren't going to change just because her name did.  Neither is her bank account or famewhoreing tendencies for that matter. 

 

As someone who is fine with Jenner's transition in general, I never thought this show was a good idea nor did I expect it to really "help" the people Caitlyn seems to think it will help.  Maybe I'm wrong - I hope so but since I first heard about it in the VF article I thought this show was more about Cait's love of the spotlight and of course the money that comes from that.    Now,  IF she was using all the proceed$ from the show  to start an organization or even endow an existing one THEN I would believe this is the point of the show. 

 

But until then I think the "helping people with the show" is just something she tells herself instead of the fact that her entire fortune is from being in the spotlight and particularly the last seven years of KUWTK which has only made her wealthier.  It's really just another E! reality show scheduled between KUWTK reruns and Stewarts & Hamiltons.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Cosmocrush

[Kromm]

I'm not so sure Cait was parroting anything; there's no reason not to think she really believes what she said.  Her politics aren't going to change just because her name did.  Neither is her bank account or famewhoreing tendencies for that matter. 

I don't think either of us you quoted suggested she doesn't (believe that shit). "Parroting" doesn't indicate a lack of belief. It means someone isn't thinking for themselves and is just taking those beliefs wholecloth from someone else. Wholecloth, and bought into--in other words believed.

[Kromm]

As someone who is fine with Jenner's transition in general, I never thought this show was a good idea nor did I expect it to really "help" the people Caitlyn seems to think it will help.  Maybe I'm wrong - I hope so but since I first heard about it in the VF article I thought this show was more about Cait's love of the spotlight and of course the money that comes from that.    Now,  IF she was using all the proceed$ from the show  to start an organization or even endow an existing one THEN I would believe this is the point of the show. 

 

But until then I think the "helping people with the show" is just something she tells herself instead of the fact that her entire fortune is from being in the spotlight and particularly the last seven years of KUWTK which has only made her wealthier.  It's really just another E! reality show scheduled between KUWTK reruns and Stewarts & Hamiltons.

The help she provides is probably going to (in a way) be unintentional.  No... that's not the right world. Fully intended, but at the same time accidental in how it manifests. I don't see Caitlyn Jenner as someone who's demonstrated the wisdom to know the difference between "helping" a cause and leading it. But the more the reality of the show (heh) turns out to be other people telling stories and Caitlyn being the student?  It's not going to stop me rolling my eyes at the K-Girl shenanigans every time they show up, but it does seem to give the show a real reason to exist.

[CousinAmy]

It turns out Cait isn't very likeable. The whole question of celebrity and fame - obviously this is post-VF article but before she was ready to be seen in public - so she complains that since the article she can't go out without being chased by the media. But wasn't posing for the cover all about her fame? Of course the paparazzi are hunting for that first picture of Caitlyn! That's the money shot.

Chandi seemed to be most disgusted by Cait's cluelessness. The others seem to be somewhat understanding, but Chandi didn't seem quite so forgiving.

And what was going on with her treatment of Ronda? I think Ronda and Courtney were there either as comic relief, or to give the "average viewer" someone to relate to, so I can see why they went along. I just don't understand Caitlyn's actions, unless she really feels like Ronda is underclass, downstairs to her upstairs.

[Human]

I'm not so sure Cait was parroting anything; there's no reason not to think she really believes what she said.  Her politics aren't going to change just because her name did.  Neither is her bank account or famewhoreing tendencies for that matter. 

 

It's not just her name that has changed.  Her experiences and reality are also changing and being challenged.  This is the first time she's spent with a group of transwomen, the first time she's hearing these stories from people rather than reading them in a book.  She's learning first hand about the issues the LGBT community face and how certain groups, like politicians, serve to keep vulnerable groups disenfranchised.  I see absolutely no reason that her political beliefs won't be challenged (and frankly, it never dawned on me that she didn't believe what she was parroting, my hope is that she learns how awful that rhetoric really is).  

 

I trust that the women with whom she's on this road trip will counsel her accordingly so that she might become a spokesperson who is worthy, and to do that requires some serious amending of her politics.  

[Cosmocrush]

I don't think either of us you quoted suggested she doesn't (believe that shit). "Parroting" doesn't indicate a lack of belief. It means someone isn't thinking for themselves and is just taking those beliefs wholecloth from someone else. Wholecloth, and bought into--in other words believed.

Okay, I stand corrected on the misunderstanding of the word parroting.   I did find Caitlyn mentioning this particularly disgusting (to me) political rhetoric offputting and rather jarring since it was in the context of a conversation about the hardships of so many in the transgender community.

 

The help she provides is probably going to (in a way) be unintentional.  No... that's not the right world. Fully intended, but at the same time accidental in how it manifests. I don't see Caitlyn Jenner as someone who's demonstrated the wisdom to know the difference between "helping" a cause and leading it. But the more the reality of the show (heh) turns out to be other people telling stories and Caitlyn being the student?  It's not going to stop me rolling my eyes at the K-Girl shenanigans every time they show up, but it does seem to give the show a real reason to exist.

The  number one reason the show exists is to make money; for E! for the production company, and for Jenner.   I think it's biggest value however might be raising awareness with a huge audience, with most of that audience most likely non-transgender.  And maybe that's what you are saying too Kromm?  

Edited August 3, 2015 by Cosmocrush

[Kromm]

Okay, I stand corrected on the misunderstanding of the word parroting.   I did find Caitlyn mentioning this particularly disgusting (to me) political rhetoric offputting and rather jarring since it was in the context of a conversation about the hardships of so many in the transgender community.

 

The  number one reason the show exists is to make money; for E! for the production company, and for Jenner.   I think it's biggest value however might be raising awareness with a huge audience, with most of that audience most likely non-transgendered.  And maybe that's what you are saying too Kromm?  

It's not too far off. I was worried (especially after the self-aggrandizing, seemingly bought off Espy Awards) about Caitlyn Jenner manifesting to the world as this leader of something she seems to barely understand, other than through the narrow lens provided by her own experience. I still worry about it some, due to the horrible, regular coverage with stuff about Caitlyn buying shoes, wearing a certain dress, etc.  Stupid media reports about "inspirational" things said by Caitlyn seem to make it even worse.  Inspiration?  Like weeks into the thing?  Come on.

​

I don't mind Caitlyn being a student though--even though it's still surrounded by a lot of other bullshit. I STILL am hugely skeptical of the whole "I never met a transgender until a few weeks ago" statement she made at the Espys--frankly it reeks of a flat out manipulative lie--but I'm starting to agree that as long as the world can resist magically making Caitlyn into some untouchable Saint (shades of Cosby--where people DARED not criticize), then frankly her own personality, beliefs, behaviors and peccadilloes hardly matter at all. We can wish her well in her famewhoring life and just watch the platform surrounding her present the issues and stories that actually affect people who aren't rich, privileged, and shallow--although even a kiddie pool would have to wind up less shallow if you dug out the bottom enough. Maybe that can happen with Caitlyn. One can hope at least.

[GaT]

Why is Malika showing up with Kim? Isn't she Khloe’s BFF?

The younger one really seems to love the lifestyle that goes along with being a personal service provider to a high-powered celebrity. And the older one looked a little jealous that she might be losing her private friend to a new crowd. Sorry, I don't remember their names.

The older one is Ronda Kamihira, she's Kris' best friend, & when Caitlyn & Ronda started going places together right after Kris & Caitlyn filed for divorce, the rumors were that they were dating. Obviously we didn't know she was working for her instead. They even had Kim confront Caitlyn about it on an episode of Keeping Up With The Kardashians. Edited August 3, 2015 by 17wheatthins

[millennium]

Her constant obsessing over her voice was, in my opinion, her way of attempting to show the women that she is struggling, too. I understand it, but it really seems so petty and trite compared to the others' stories.

 

Especially considering the problem can be mitigated relatively easily, either with professional coaching or on your own.   This is a person who has tons of money to throw at any improvement she wants.   Why wouldn't she get coaching from someone like this?

 

http://www.katheperez.com

 

There are also numerous transgender voice training programs on the web and self-help videos on youtube.

 

I don't watch the show, but it seems odd that someone so bent on perfecting her appearance to "make others more comfortable" (is how I think she put it in an interview) would not already have sought professional help to overcome one of the biggest "tells" for a transgender woman -- the voice.  No matter how convincing you look, if you open your mouth and male comes out ... your whole presentation is undermined. 

 

Of course, I guess it depends on how important it is to you (and the environment in which you live and work) to be convincing as a woman.   Neither Jenner's employment or personal safety are dependent upon successfully passing as a woman and blending in with everyday society, so she can afford to use her natural voice if she pleases.    Many other transgender women don't have that luxury and/or would prefer their voice match their appearance as closely as possible anyway.

Edited August 3, 2015 by millennium

[Sarah D. Bunting]

 

Neither Jenner's employment or personal safety are dependent upon successfully passing as a woman and blending in with everyday society, so she can afford to use her natural voice if she pleases.

And at least one cis lady with a baritone was psyched to have her on the team. 

 

I haven't read all Boylan's stuff, but She's Not There is fantastic, and I highly recommend it if taking one of her classes isn't feasible.

[mwell345]

 

So glad they brought Jen, the professor, into this - she is good for bringing Cait down to earth and into the reality of life for other trans people. She sort of acts as a bridge with her calm, intellectual approach.

 

I was glad she (Jen) pointed out that it wasn't all about hair and makeup.  I do wish Cait didn't feel like she had to "style" Jen - have her team do her hair and lend her a dress to wear, but maybe that was something that was agreed on.  I don't know, but it bothered me, because Jen is an attractive person in her own right - she's not "glamourous" or flashy, but she's fine just the way she is.  Not everyone has to look like Cait or a Kardashian.  And while Cait has a closet full of designer clothes, not everyone does, and that only serves to highlight the difference between a celebrity transgender and an everyday transgender who doesn't have access to everything Cait has access too.  

 

I'm not saying that it was easy for Cait to transgender -she had her own specific set of obstacles to overcome.  But she also had tons of public support (granted, she couldn't have known that she would receive that), but many transgenders don't even have the support of their families, much less their communities.   I'm glad the point was made that Cait is in a bubble to some degree. 

 

And I'm weary of "escape from the paparazzi".  I get it. 

 

Is Kim going to be in every episode so we can see how supportive she is?  I get that, too.

Edited August 3, 2015 by mwell345

[iwasish]

I was bothered by her pushing Jbo to get her hair and make up done and to wear some of her clothing. I think it shows the superficial outlook on being a woman that has been perpetuated by the K Klan. I don't see Caitlyn has being as comfortable around transgender women who despite the greatest makeup and clothing aren't going to "pass"

I thought her treatment of Rhonda was particularly awful. This is the woman who has been her friend and confidant, kept her secret, bought her clothing, and now she's "my assistant". It's like she took her along on a vacation ( I think she even said it was a vacation) and as a buffer in case things were awry with the ladies. Then once the ice was broken and she felt comfortable, she relegated her back to assistant status "Rhonda are you cooking tonight"

I don't see Caitlyn as really getting the big picture, ever.

Eventually she'll end up in her ivory tower in Malibu. Alone, with perfect makeup and designer clothing.

[Cosmic Muffin]

Yeah, this is Caitlyn's trip and her show, but along with all of the trans ignorance, she's spent 60 years waiting for the women and /or the help to rustle up food when she's hungry. Food just appears, she doesn't have to fix it. I wonder if she'll learn to hover around the kitchen and ask if she can help with anything, and to jump up and carry dirty dishes to the kitchen?

 

I've read Jbo's (shall we respectfully call her this now, especially as there is another Jen on the show?) books, and I'm pretty sure this bit I remember is from She's Not There, her first book which was about being born in the wrong body, deciding to transition, transitioning, but also about the rest of her life. In whichever book, right after the transition, she feels attracted to men and she writes about "the mystery of men" as the other gender, even though she was raised as that gender. Her books are just so interesting. The family moves into this big, ramshackle house. Previous owners had kept a pet chimpanzee named Jesus in the bathroom in the attic, if I recall correctly. The house appears to be haunted. By Jesus? Read the book and see!

 

From a recent book, Jbo's sons are high school aged. She worries about them getting bullied, and wonders if either of them will turn out to be trans. One son sits her and her wife down to tell them something. Jbo is freaking out a bit on the inside, but trying to appear calm and supportive on the outside. Their son comes out to them....as a Pacifist. Which clearly he was worried about, and a little bit defiant, too. His mothers have no problem supporting him in this.

 

Anyway, anyone looking for good books, please go read Jennifer Finney-Boylan's books.

[Primetimer]

Cait doesn't know a lot of things, apparently. Chanel has questions.

Read the story

[Kromm]

Heh.

The word "privilege" gets used more in these 45 minutes than ever in the history of cable television.

[Rigoletto22]

She didn't have to go to the HRC. She is the executive producer so she didn't have to leave in the parts where she looks bad- like the politics and having the others say she is priveleged. Kudos to her for doing this! She does not have to and could stay home and make the show a lot different than last night's show. She sticks out being so rich.

Also she uses the assistant like a wife. Sorry but it's like a some men are unable to function without a wife to take care of everything. She was a man and is now a woman but while living as a man always had a wife to do all the basic daily things. It seems like she needs Rhonda around or she could not function at all. If that was supposed to be  vacation for Rhonda too than she needed to hire someone else to wipe her ass.

But kudos to Cait for putting herself into an uncomfortable situation by going to the HRC and trying to learn. She didn't have to! It's turning out to be much more deep than I expected.  I did kind of laugh when she referred to this room of transladies as "you guys" a few times, lol. I know it's just non gender English like "yall" for Northerners but it kind of seemed a bit awkward.

[Febgirl]

So, despite my screen name including the word, what irked me about last night's episode was Cait's insistence on using the word " Girl/Girls"  I know for me, as a Cis-Woman, I haven't been a girl since I was, well, a girl.  Perhaps this fits into Jenny Boylan's talking head about Cait experiencing second adolescence, but it just bugs.

  Kim K's friend telling her that she has to be careful about what she eats  and where also really annoyed me.  I understand that there are infinite varieties of womanhood, guess I am not a fan of the Kardashian variety.

 

  The " I can feel my IQ dropping" line was the quote of the n ight for me.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Febgirl

[iwasish]

She is the executive producer so she didn't have to leave in the parts where she looks bad- like the politics and having the others say she is priveleged. Kudos to her for doing this!

 

Perhaps coming from her place of privilege, she doesn't even realize that she is coming off badly. Every time they show the aerial shot of her home up in the hills, so isolated, it emphasizes the difference between their worlds. She clearly feels entitled to all she had, she worked for it, she earned it, I don't see her coming down from that exclusive life and mingling with the Chandis' of the community. I see her gravitating to the more "successful" trans women, the ones who can pass, who have had the money to buy hormones and have laser hair removal. 

 

When the ladies were talking about having to work in the sex trade, did anyone else think of the fortune Kim has made off a sex tape and that she continues to make millions off the sex trade? I wonder if Caitlyn sees the irony.  

[Artsda]

Kim wasn't a prostitute, it was a sex tape that got leaked and they capitalized off the press. It's hardly the same as what the trans community was talking about.  

[Rigoletto22]

Perhaps coming from her place of privilege, she doesn't even realize that she is coming off badly. Every time they show the aerial shot of her home up in the hills, so isolated, it emphasizes the difference between their worlds. She clearly feels entitled to all she had, she worked for it, she earned it, I don't see her coming down from that exclusive life and mingling with the Chandis' of the community. I see her gravitating to the more "successful" trans women, the ones who can pass, who have had the money to buy hormones and have laser hair removal. 

 

When the ladies were talking about having to work in the sex trade, did anyone else think of the fortune Kim has made off a sex tape and that she continues to make millions off the sex trade? I wonder if Caitlyn sees the irony.  

There were obvious places in the show- several talking heads- where Caitlyn was being directly criticized. She did not have to let that stay in the show. I was talking about the parts where she it was obvious to her that people were not all positive about her. 

Was there not another thread about questions and education? Did that get deleted?

[iwasish]

Kim wasn't a prostitute, it was a sex tape that got leaked and they capitalized off the press. It's hardly the same as what the trans community was talking about.  

No one said she was a prostitute, I said she makes her money in the sex trade, she sells sex, maybe not physically but the idea of it, the fantasy of it . The difference is she doesn't have to do it to survive.

[Artsda]

To even compare what the trans people have to deal with to survive or pay for their surgeries to just be who they are with Kim and Ray J's sex tape is not getting it at all or having so much hate for Kim she has to be brought up when it has nothing to do with her. There's no comparison to any celeb's (there's a lot of them) leaked sex tapes to what the trans people were talking about what they have to do to just live. Celebs who have had sex tapes and get lots of attention for them are not in the "sex work" category like the trans people were talking about.

 

There's no comparison at all and is so far from having anything to do with Kim.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Artsda

[nexxie]

And what was going on with her treatment of Ronda? I think Ronda and Courtney were there either as comic relief, or to give the "average viewer" someone to relate to, so I can see why they went along. I just don't understand Caitlyn's actions, unless she really feels like Ronda is underclass, downstairs to her upstairs.

The way Cait treated Rhonda reminded me of the way Kris used to treat Bruce - not good.

[nexxie]

When the ladies were talking about having to work in the sex trade, did anyone else think of the fortune Kim has made off a sex tape and that she continues to make millions off the sex trade? I wonder if Caitlyn sees the irony.

Kim wasn't a prostitute, it was a sex tape that got leaked and they capitalized off the press. It's hardly the same as what the trans community was talking about.

I can see this both ways. What Kim does is not prostitution in the literal sense, but Kris does "pimp" out her girls (especially Kim and Kylie) - it's all about selling sex. 'Course, Kanye is Kim's new pimp.

[Cosmocrush]

I haven't read all Boylan's stuff, but She's Not There is fantastic, and I highly recommend it if taking one of her classes isn't feasible.

.

Anyway, anyone looking for good books, please go read Jennifer Finney-Boylan's books.

 

Or at least check out her blog; the latest entry is about grammar interestingly enough.    I think she's a really good writer. 

[iwasish]

And what was going on with her treatment of Ronda? I think Ronda and Courtney were there either as comic relief, or to give the "average viewer" someone to relate to, so I can see why they went along. I just don't understand Caitlyn's actions, unless she really feels like Ronda is underclass, downstairs to her upstairs.

 

I see some of the way Khloe treats Malika in the way Caitlyn treated Rhonda. There's an air at times with Khloe that Malika , despite their friendship, collects a check from Khloe and the line between friendship and employee gets blurred. (I don't see this as much with Kim and Jonathon, maybe because he has his own career and isn't an employee. That could explain why she felt it necessary to have room arrangements made for him in Montana, he was her guest, and left it to Khloe to make arrangements for Malika, since Malika is her employee/friend.)  It could also be that Caitlyn had no one else to confide in, her life was isolated and she couldn't freely go about purchasing clothing and other female items without drawing attention to herself so Rhonda took on that combined role. Now that Caitlyn is out and widening her social circle it may shift their relationship. Rhonda even was concerned that the other ladies would feel uncomfortable around her, Caitlyn insisted she come along for a "vacation".

 

I don't think Caitlyn has a lot of insight into other people's feelings.

Edited August 3, 2015 by iwasish

[selhars]

 

I also think that it's not for anyone -- trans or not -- to judge what being a woman means to Jenner. Maybe for her it is about clothes and make-up and hair styles.

 

Except that as Bruce and Caitlyn -- and more than once -- s/he has said it's NOT about that.

Dress and make up are elements OF the change and part of how it's manifested....but that doesn't mean that's what its ABOUT.

 

The prof said there IS a certain freedom that comes with being able to be how you feel you should be (makeup, clothes or whatever)...but she hopes the exuberance about those things aren't perceived to be what' it's about.

Edited August 3, 2015 by selhars

[bagatelle]

The way Cait treated Rhonda reminded me of the way Kris used to treat Bruce - not good.

 

I always thought Cait and Rhonda were good friends, but now I realize, she's just her assistant and they are on friendly terms.

[Madding crowd]

Not sure if I find this show all that interesting yet. I'm watching it for several reasons one of which is I have a gay relative who has a couple of transgender friends who I recently met and liked and want to know more about their lives. Since I have watched the Kardashian shows for many years, I still find it odd that Caitlyn even talks about fashion and make up so much since she made it clear to her daughters and stepdaughters that she had no interest in what they did or liked. In fact, there were many, many episodes when Caitlyn wouldn't stop racing cars, flying helicopters, or playing golf even when the girls/women asked her to do something with them. The explanation was almost always "I have no interest in that kind of thing. I want to do guy things,"

 

I'm not suggesting anything about what constitutes guy/girl things, but I wonder if the daughters now think she is being a bit disingenuous with her new interests. I also find myself thinking in some scenes (in episode one in particular) that Caitlyn seemed high or medicated. I could be wrong of course.

 

And last, although I'm sure I will be lectured about this: I don't want to be called a cis woman. I am a woman. Caitlyn has the right to be called what she wants and so do I. I know the literature, reasons etc, but I am not the before picture in a before and after scenario. Again, this is my choice, I don't speak for other women. Caitlyn is a woman, and so am I.

[RemoteControlFreak]

"I can feel my IQ plummeting...."  Jenny Boylan is a breath of fresh air.    

 

Also, "Caitlyn has the right to be just as conservative as she chooses .... [but] living in the bubble is an impediment to understanding other people."

 

Obviously the show was very heavily scripted.  

 

Still, the naivete shown by Caitlyn seems real, and I don't think she'll ever get beyond defining herself by how she looks -- hair, makeup, cothes, shoes ....  As a man, she wasn't that different.  She's a product of Hollywood shallowness and that's not going to change.

 

Also, maybe it's getting used to the new breasts, but her golf swing needs work. Keeping the left arm straight is one of the keys to hitting the ball well and far.   And where did those golf balls go?  Is there a net somewhere below or is Caitlyn so self-absorbed that she doesn't even consider that.

 

Also, what's the deal with avoiding the paparazzi?  She's gone from one reality show to another.  Her life is on full display.  It seems like avoiding the paparazzi is just a way to avoid having the media scoop her appearance and activities before the carefully-planning introduction at the ESPY's and then the debut of I AM CAIT.

 

Come on, Cait. Don't pretend that you're being stalked by ISIS.  It's just a fucking camera.  The same device that bought your house and all of your cars and gave you the money for all the medical procedures that made you look so good. (With a little help from the javelin, high jump etc.)

Edited August 3, 2015 by remotecontrolfreak

[RemoteControlFreak]

I haven't read all Boylan's stuff, but She's Not There is fantastic, and I highly recommend it if taking one of her classes isn't feasible.

You have to be an undergrad at Barnard / Columbia to take one of her classes. And she teaches writing. She's not lecturing about the portrayal of newly-transitioned reality stars/Olympic gold medalists.

[Madding crowd]

Yes, but when Caitlin is saying things like "what are the cis women doing", it's labeling not shorthand. As far as being deep in the closet, I thought she said she never was and that her wives knew it. And I think her daughters and stepdaughters have a right to be upset that the things she criticized and rejected them for are now things she is interested in,only with new friends.

[RemoteControlFreak]

Yes, but when Caitlin is saying things like "what are the cis women doing", it's labeling not shorthand. As far as being deep in the closet, I thought she said she never was and that her wives knew it. And I think her daughters and stepdaughters have a right to be upset that the things she criticized and rejected them for are now things she is interested in,only with new friends.

None of the kids on KUWTK knew she was transgender. One or two knew that she cross-dressed sometimes and Kris knew that she had been taking hormones in the past but when she was married to Kris and raising two children and a bunch of step-children she was deeply invested in hiding this. Also, remember that Kris produced Keeping up with the Kardashians so she would also be very intent on portraying Bruce as a man.

 

Also, again with regard to "cis women," she could also have said, "non-transgender women."  It IS shorthand.  The difference between trans and non-trans women was an important part of that particular conversation.  How else should they be differentiated in this context?  

[red12]

When I watched this episode, Caite's views and behaviors drove home the point that she is someone who spent most of the last 60 years being treated as a rich, white, cisgendered man; and an exceptional one at that. It was difficult to watch her be defensive and all in her feels about even listening to others POV. I also find all the comments about how people should be grateful Caitlin even tries to connect with other Trans people troubling. Anyway, the show is better than I expected and I will continue to dvr.

[Rigoletto22]

"I can feel my IQ plummeting...."  Jenny Boylan is a breath of fresh air.    

 

Also, "Caitlyn has the right to be just as conservative as she chooses .... [but] living in the bubble is an impediment to understanding other people."

 

Obviously the show was very heavily scripted.  

 

 

 

Also, what's the deal with avoiding the paparazzi?  She's gone from one reality show to another.  Her life is on full display.  It seems like avoiding the paparazzi is just a way to avoid having the media scoop her appearance and activities before the carefully-planning introduction at the ESPY's and then the debut of I AM CAIT.

 

Come on, Cait. Don't pretend that you're being stalked by ISIS.  It's just a fucking camera.  The same device that bought your house and all of your cars and gave you the money for all the medical procedures that made you look so good. (With a little help from the javelin, high jump etc.)

The papparazzi avoidance was only during the time this was taped, she had not yet been seen by some of her children yet. Her transition was known but she had not gone out in public yet as Caitlyn. There was a 250K pay off to whoever got the first photo of her as a woman. This is why she was being hounded. She didn't want some of her children to see her in an Enquirer photo before they "met" her.  Now that she is on TV and being seen out and about - I am sure now it no longer pays 250K for a photo so now the papparazzi thing is not the same as what it was then (and before then as a Kardashian)

 

Edited August 4, 2015 by Rigoletto22

[lizzy07]

 

"I can feel my IQ plummeting...."  Jenny Boylan is a breath of fresh air.   

 

Also, "Caitlyn has the right to be just as conservative as she chooses .... [but] living in the bubble is an impediment to understanding other people."

 

Jenny is the best! I don't think Cait went into this series in the hopes that somebody *else* on the show would emerge as the star.