S05.E10: Mother's Mercy

[Elkins]

When watching I felt that he'd found unexpected sexual gratification from beating Sansa, which of course he was ordered to do. So now he goes to whore houses to pay for the privilege of enjoying that fetish.

Head canon gratefully accepted, Umbelina!  Indeed, that is much more palatable than the "What an amazing coincidence that Joffrey should have ordered Trant to do just the sort of thing he happens to fetishize, wow!" thing that I was stumbling over.

 

Interestingly, BoingBoing actually discussed the issue again recently, and it's interesting because it was someone hands-on enough to literally change or overrule the blocking and shooting of a scene (http://boingboing.net/2015/05/12/the-naked-hypocrisy-of-game-of.html):

Somehow the most depressing thing about that article is the fact that the first handful of comments are all from people defensively listing every bit of male nudity they can ever remember seeing on the show. "But...but...but the wine seller! And Hodor's prosthetic wang!"

 

Actually, maybe that's not so much depressing as hilarious. I haven't quite made up my mind yet.

 

I was also very impressed by Dillane's hollow-eyed performance as everything collapsed around him. I think he's finished, myself, but every time someone argues otherwise, I find myself rather wishing for it to be true, just because I enjoyed his portrayal so much.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Elkins

[SeanC]

The way I always saw Sansa was as a teenage girl who was in over her head yet didn't realize it because  Littlefinger did a decent enough job pumping her up with false bravado and false information.

She's a "hardened woman", according to the writers.

[Oscirus]

Which is what made it all the more easier for Littlefinger to manipulate her. Season one Sansa definitely wouldn't have allowed herself to be talked into participating in such a marriage.

[SeanC]

Which is what made it all the more easier for Littlefinger to manipulate her. Season one Sansa definitely wouldn't have allowed herself to be talked into participating in such a marriage.

The writers don't think he was manipulating her, from what they've said.  They view her as making a real choice on her own.

[Shriekingeel]

This show loves its Mismatched Road Buddies segments. We've seen Cateyn/Tyrion, Brienne/Jamie, Brienne/Pod, Arya/Hound,Tyrion/Varys, Tyrion/Jorah, Jamie/Bronn, and we're already set up for next season with Daario/Jorah.

[Oscirus]

The writers don't think he was manipulating her, from what they've said.  They view her as making a real choice on her own.

 

Then there's a huge disconnect between what they're writing and what they're showing on the screen. Everything that he's done from keeping their destination a secret to that rah rah speech has been LF manipulating her into being where he needed her to be so that he could eventually take the North

Edited June 21, 2015 by Oscirus

[Skeeter22]

I don't know that the writers really believe they've shown Sansa making her own choices. They wanted to present a story about Ramsay locking his bride in a tower and Theon rescuing her. They inserted Sansa in the story, but didn't want to change anything. So they gave lip service to the idea that this is positive character development for Sansa when the story isn't about her at all. I don't believe they ever considered her character arc when they wrote this season and I'll be shocked if she doesn't meet up with Littlefinger and the Vale contingency as if this side trip never happened.

[DigitalCount]

This show loves its Mismatched Road Buddies segments. We've seen Cateyn/Tyrion, Brienne/Jamie, Brienne/Pod, Arya/Hound,Tyrion/Varys, Tyrion/Jorah, Jamie/Bronn, and we're already set up for next season with Daario/Jorah.

We even got a short segment of Brienne/Stannis

[Portia4844]

I haven't trusted the writers when it comes to what they say is actually going on since they said Jamie didn't rape Cersei when it clearly looked like rape.   It's hard to imagine they believe Sansa was empowered and making her own choices when that isn't what we were shown on the show.   If they actually believe what they're saying, they have a very different view of being assertive and consensual sex than I do.  The actors going along with it and saying it was something clearly different than what we were shown sounds more like going along with whatever the writers say it was.  

 

I've never been a fan of book adaptions that completely change someone's personality and turn someone who wasn't a killer into one or someone who wasn't stupid into a complete moron.   The changes the writer's made in personalities and in the basic stories of various characters didn't enhance the story in a positive way that takes what GRRM wrote, condenses it, and makes it more understandable.   The book made Jon being stabbed understandable while the show left me thinking....what the bloody hell was that?   Same with Sansa, the Sand snakes, LF, Loras, and so on.  

Edited June 22, 2015 by Portia4844

[lucindabelle]

I don't know... I bought that it wasn't rape and I'm buying Sansa making her own decisions, albeit under some duress, too.

[nksarmi]

I thought I was going to hate the Trant thing, because I assumed he was going to have sex with those newly pubescent girls.  Thank God for once the show didn't go there.  Anyway, it ended up working for me for two reasons.  It's been a LONG time since he beat Sansa and killed Syrio, so I actually can understand why they gave him a more recent crime, or reason to hate him.  The other reason it worked, and I haven't heard anyone else say this, but I read that scene a bit differently.

 

When watching I felt that he'd found unexpected sexual gratification from beating Sansa, which of course he was ordered to do.  So now he goes to whore houses to pay for the privilege of enjoying that fetish.  Luckily, we didn't find out if that was a precursor to then having sex with the girl, or if the beatings alone were enough for him.  In my head though, the beatings were enough, and I don't think he had that prediction until Joffrey gave that order.

Of course, he probably advanced in his experimentation in LF's whore house.

[Portia4844]

Lucidabelle--if you and so many more weren't buying what they're selling, the show wouldn't be successful which would be sad for millions of fans.    :-)   

[Attaboy000]

Because he was the only one in any position of authority who really knew or cared about the shitstorm coming at Westeros from beyond the Wall.  If he's dead dead, who's going to rally the defense against the zombie army?  Dolorous Edd?  (Whom I love, but still.)

Well yea, but here's why I asked the question: this is the book reader thread, we knew it was coming, there's strong evidence that he isn't dead dead...but people are still having a meltdown about it as if he is dead.

 

I understand if this was the "No Book talk" thread...but come on...book readers should know better.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Attaboy000

[tennisgurl]

 

Same with Sansa, the Sand snakes, LF, Loras, and so on.

The Sand Snakes were the worst hit by this tendency of the writers, to make people more evil/weaker/more silly than in the books. Dear God, I liked the Dorne stuff in the books, but on the show? They were, like, Tyra and Landry`s murderous rampage from Friday Night Lights level bad. Of all the issues this season, they were the biggest to me. The Sansa stuff, I can see multiple sides of the debate, as to whether or not her story was a good move. But the Dorne stuff? Plus ruining Ellaria, one of my favorite supporting characters? That was just painful. 

[Avaleigh]

The Sand Snakes were the worst hit by this tendency of the writers, to make people more evil/weaker/more silly than in the books. Dear God, I liked the Dorne stuff in the books, but on the show? They were, like, Tyra and Landry`s murderous rampage from Friday Night Lights level bad. Of all the issues this season, they were the biggest to me. The Sansa stuff, I can see multiple sides of the debate, as to whether or not her story was a good move. But the Dorne stuff? Plus ruining Ellaria, one of my favorite supporting characters? That was just painful. 

I would totally be interested in knowing what sort of conversations the writers had when discussing the characters of the Sand Snakes and the Dorne arc as a whole because it doesn't feel like anybody decided to put their thinking cap on this year when it came to this story. I have to imagine that NCW and Jerome Flynn were bummed when they saw the material that they'd been given. 

[Advance35]

The Sand Snakes were the worst hit by this tendency of the writers, to make people more evil/weaker/more silly than in the books. Dear God, I liked the Dorne stuff in the books, but on the show? They were, like, Tyra and Landry`s murderous rampage from Friday Night Lights level bad. Of all the issues this season, they were the biggest to me.

 

I really liked them in the books too.  I'd like to hear the Commentary on the Dorne stuff on the Blu Ray.  

 

I was really surprised they had Trystane go to Kings Landing instead of the Sand Snakes.   In the book I thought it was very telling that Doran Martell had both of his heirs in relatively secure circumstances but Oberyn's bastards were sent into pretty dangerous situations.   The way things were left, I don't think we necessarily HAVE to see the Sand Snakes again.   They managed to deal a devestating blow to House Lannister/Cersei which was what they really wanted all along.

 

I think Trystane will be fine, since I suspect a lot of next season will be Kevan Lannister trying to fix all that Cersei has broken in Kings Landing and he'll see that the heir to Sunspear is protected, to avoid escalation.  He's got to be aware that House Lannister doesn't have it in them to come out on top in another war.   House Tyrell won't be willing to shoulder the burden anytime soon.

 

I'm kind of enjoying watching Jaimie and Cersei stand impotent as their "Great" House burns down around them.

[benteen]

I didn't think about it but you're right...Trystane should be fine as long as Kevan is in power.

[FemmyV]

They may have to put him into hiding; 5:10 featured not just one, but TWO scenes giving Cersei cause to go on a rampage. On top of which, there's that prophesy thingie. One kid left.

[proserpina65]

Well yea, but here's why I asked the question: this is the book reader thread, we knew it was coming, there's strong evidence that he isn't dead dead...but people are still having a meltdown about it as if he is dead.

 

I understand if this was the "No Book talk" thread...but come on...book readers should know better.

Sorry if I misunderstood your post; I obviously didn't get the reason behind your question.

 

Being a bookwalker (as we used to call ourselves on TWOP), I knew it was coming, and have been kind of amused by the reaction from non-readers.  Of course, with D&D, who knows?

[nksarmi]

Book readers are having a little freak out not because we believe Jon Snow is dead (and not coming back), but because we don't trust D&D and to a lesser degree we are paranoid that GRRM might mess with us!  It's one thing to wave off their insistence that Jon Sow is dead (because we expect him to be resurrected), but it's another thing to try to figure out what it means if Kit is telling the truth and HE isn't coming back to the show.  I honestly feel like this would be a HUGE spoiler if it's true that Jon is just plain dead and he has no future story. So the only way I feel like GRRM would be ok with it is if it isn't true.  But I still wonder if Kit is telling the truth and he won't be back yet somehow Jon will.

[Funzlerks]

If the ship is Dorne's, why would Trystane continue to King's Landing after Myrcella died? If my relatives just poisoned my fiancée, hell no would I go to her family's stronghold where her brother is the king. Also, Myrcella's family is insane and ordered the rape and burning of half the country because one of their own was arrested for attempted murder (which his nephew actually did) and given a fair trial and then released. If I were Trystane, I would turn right back around until I had a giant army to go with me. Actually, I would never go to King's Landing unless someone forcibly took my dead corpse there.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Funzlerks

[Constantinople]

If the ship is Dorne's, why would Trystane continue to King's Landing after Myrcella died?

When you've lost your soul mate, it can be very painful to revisit the places where you've met an fell in love.

People often need to start fresh somewhere else.

[Hecate7]

Seriously? I would think that "somewhere else" might mean anyplace on the freaking planet EXCEPT King's Landing. Cersei wasn't going to like Trystane much even if he were arm in arm with a blissfully happy Myrcella, but now that he's accompanied by her corpse? Oh hell no. Trystane, if he sets foot in King's Landing, is dead. So dead. So very, very dead. Like Oberyn times 100. Basically Ellaria just invited Cersei Lannister to make sure Trystane dies, which of course WILL start a war with Dorne, because although Doran Martell doesn't want a war, and won't fight one over his hot-headed brother, he will fight one over his son and heir if he has to.

 

As has been pointed out, the Lannisters attacked the Riverlands because Tyrion was arrested. Their vengeance is swift and terrible. Jaime is in a terrible position now. He must get Myrcella decently buried, and he also must figure out a way to get Trystane home before anyone kills him. Meanwhile, Trystane, Cersei, Doran, and pretty much everyone except Bronn and the Sandsnakes, will start to wonder if Jaime killed the very niece he was sent to rescue. Two of his own children have died in his arms. People may start to think he's the one doing it.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Hecate7

[Avaleigh]

Even if Jaime did deliver up Trystane to Cersei on a platter I have no doubt that she'd still hold Jaime partially or even fully responsible for Myrcella's death. She is just about that level of irrational and given what she's been through I expect her to completely flip out over the death of her daughter to the point where I don't think Trystane's death alone would satisfy her. 

Edited June 25, 2015 by Avaleigh

[snowblossom2]

But it makes no sense if they actually go through to Kings Landing. It's a Martell boat, surely the guards or even Trystane would turn around and go back to Dorne if M is dead. Even if she wasn't, so they could get the antidote. This is what happens when D&D change so many things in the story. It would make absolutely no sense for that boat to do anything else except turn around

[Avaleigh]

I like the speculation that the boat could be headed to Meereen my gut tells me that there's no way we'll be that lucky. 

 

I agree though that unless Jaime and Bronn somehow get control of the ship (impossible?) that it makes no sense why they'd go to KL if they care at all about whether or not Trystane lives. 

 

If Doran was in on the plot then they should have cut to him after the Kiss of Death. Instead it seems like either didn't notice or noticed but didn't care and I don't really think either option makes all that much sense unless there's some other factor that isn't being considered. 

[benteen]

It would make no sense but this show has often not been big on sense.  Robb bringing Talisa to the Red Wedding is an example of the lack of judgment the show characters demonstrate at times.

[nksarmi]

It would make no sense but this show has often not been big on sense.  Robb bringing Talisa to the Red Wedding is an example of the lack of judgment the show characters demonstrate at times.

That was one level of stupid because it was Robb assuming that all Frey really cared about was that his daughters were married and that he wasn't an old bitter man likely to hold a grudge.

 

But Trystane going to the capital after Myrcella is dead is a level of stupid that I don't think any character has yet been forced to demonstrate - except maybe Stannis burning Shireen in front of an army of sell swords and not thinking they would run like hell from your crazy ass and your evil red witch.

[MadMouse]

That was one level of stupid because it was Robb assuming that all Frey really cared about was that his daughters were married and that he wasn't an old bitter man likely to hold a grudge.

 

But Trystane going to the capital after Myrcella is dead is a level of stupid that I don't think any character has yet been forced to demonstrate - except maybe Stannis burning Shireen in front of an army of sell swords and not thinking they would run like hell from your crazy ass and your evil red witch.

 

Don't forget Littlefinger giving away the woman who has claims and could unite both the North and Riverlands. And telling the crazy woman who wants her dead where she's at. 

[nksarmi]

Don't forget Littlefinger giving away the woman who has claims and could unite both the North and Riverlands. And telling the crazy woman who wants her dead where she's at. 

Oh my word the LF stuff this season!!!!  I am holding off because I think there will be a pay off next season for LF telling Cersei what she wanted to hear and that conversation he had with Olenna, but seriously show W.T.F.? 

 

It's one thing to put your show in a holding pattern waiting for the 6th book, but damn, there was other stuff you could have tossed in to fill spaces.  People might not have been as pissed about Sansa being married to Ramsey if you had included some of the Northmen and the Ghost of Winterfell stories.  And that would have been riveting to the Unsullied. 

 

Instead you gave us this nonsensical stuff with LF telling Cersei about Sansa which I don't think is an actual betrayal because he basically was just negotiating being named Warden of the North by Tommen (I doubt that anyone can make him kill Sansa once Tommen puts his seal on the paper) but you still didn't make it clear on screen.  And then you have that odd conversation between him and Olenna and there is no pay off from it?  If you wanted us to wait until season six to know what was happening with Marg and Loras (who you didn't need to do this to!) - then you shouldn't have included that scene because it was just weird to have it in there. 

 

If you want to change stuff, ok fine.  But stop trying to bring in characters that don't belong and make them cool somehow.  And use the characters that do belong more.  You are just f-ing this up and leaving weird cliff-hangy stuff that likely can't be reconciled when you pile it all back together. 

[Avaleigh]

It's clear to me now that the arrests of Margaery and Loras happened too early into the season. It makes no sense that we aren't going to get an update on that side when they went into jail before Cersei did. I guess we can fanwank that Margaery and Loras are being better treated than Cersei was so maybe they aren't dealing with the same lack of water and sleep issues but I have my doubts considering how horrible Margaery looked the last time we saw her. With Loras, I wouldn't be surprised if the sparrows treat him viciously because of the nature of his so-called crime. We saw how they treated gay men in that brothel and it was hideously disturbing. I won't be surprised if Loras is physically changed by the time we see him from being beaten by his sparrow guards. 

[MadMouse]

Oh my word the LF stuff this season!!!!  I am holding off because I think there will be a pay off next season for LF telling Cersei what she wanted to hear and that conversation he had with Olenna, but seriously show W.T.F.? 

 

It's one thing to put your show in a holding pattern waiting for the 6th book, but damn, there was other stuff you could have tossed in to fill spaces.  People might not have been as pissed about Sansa being married to Ramsey if you had included some of the Northmen and the Ghost of Winterfell stories.  And that would have been riveting to the Unsullied. 

 

Instead you gave us this nonsensical stuff with LF telling Cersei about Sansa which I don't think is an actual betrayal because he basically was just negotiating being named Warden of the North by Tommen (I doubt that anyone can make him kill Sansa once Tommen puts his seal on the paper) but you still didn't make it clear on screen.  And then you have that odd conversation between him and Olenna and there is no pay off from it?  If you wanted us to wait until season six to know what was happening with Marg and Loras (who you didn't need to do this to!) - then you shouldn't have included that scene because it was just weird to have it in there. 

 

If you want to change stuff, ok fine.  But stop trying to bring in characters that don't belong and make them cool somehow.  And use the characters that do belong more.  You are just f-ing this up and leaving weird cliff-hangy stuff that likely can't be reconciled when you pile it all back together. 

 

For sure. if they had just included one Northern Lord who was a Stark loyalist the Sansa story works somewhat. And it wouldn't have taken much dialogue to just have the character tell her they're marshaling their forces to make a move on the Boltons and to hold out awhile longer. Show how much the Starks are loved by the North. Can you imagine if we had gotten Theon Durden, protecting Sansa by killing random Bolton men or Freys. People would've lost it at the reveal.

 

But honestly I think they were more concerned with getting ride of Stannis more than anything and that's why all the Northern houses were pushed to next season. And we all know most of the fans of the show won't care that these loyal Northmen show up out of the blue or wonder where they were before. Or that it makes sense, I'd be surprised if they could even name the Boltons. 

[Funzlerks]

I have to say, looking back, what the hell was that Littlefinger scene about? Was it just so that in the next season they have a clip of him talking to Cersei during the previouslies right before he shows up with his army? It also seemed like a highly ravenable message. They should have just added that scene in Arrested Development style next season. Nothing came of Littlefinger talking other than to make him look more stupid and Sansa seem unimportant except for her womb and Cersei to seem like she has half a clue.

My mind will break if Trystane and his men do not fight to their deaths to keep from going to Kings Landing. The king's sweet new wife and loyal brother-in-law are in jail and are being tortured! What will they do to Trystane? If I were Jaime, I would hide her death until I had control of the ship because step one for the Dornish men has to be either throwing overboard or imprisoning Bronn and Jamie. Still, it would just be impossible for Jamie and Bronn to gain control of the ship for any length of time. Unless all Dornishmen fight like Sand Snakes.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Funzlerks

[Portia4844]

Unless fighting like the Sand Snakes means sticking them with the pointy end filled with poison. :-) Watching them was so cringeworthy and what was the "you want bad pussy" all about? Haha!

I agree on LittleFinger and you may be right on it just being some setup for next season in the previews. Otherwise, it seems a complete waste.

[Advance35]

I saw someone post elsewhere and I agree, that Littlefinger HAD to tell Cersei about Sansa, just in case word got out some other way.   He didn't know why she was demanding he return to Kings Landing, he couldn't have been positive about what she knew.  The way he played it, he bought her the news and bought himself some time to allow her to self-distruct.   They were discussing the Tyrell situation before he bought Sansa to light, he knew things were only going to escalate in Kings Landing.   He was also successful in getting Cersei to agree to leave Sansa to him (with him letting her believe he would bring Cersei Sansa's severed head).    All the while managing to put Sansa's continued well-being/survival on the Heads of the Boltons as far as the Iron Throne was concerned.

 

I think he is planning to turn against the crown publicly, but I don't think the time has arrived yet.   He's manuevered the Vale (as seen with his scene with the Lords Declarant last year) against the Iron Throne and now House Bolton (current Great House) and Wardens of the North have been manuevered against The Iron Throne/House Lannister.

 

I think he WANTS Sansa but I don't think he would die for her.  He managed to arrange very good insurance for himself.   He's arranged a path into the camp of just about every faction, The North, The Iron Throne, The Vale. 

[Avaleigh]

The interesting thing to me about Littlefinger's conversation with Cersei is that he's giving her good advice about the situation with the Tyrells and the High Sparrow. I suppose he knows her well enough to suspect that she won't necessarily consider that he's giving her fair warning that he doesn't think it's a good idea to give the Faith all of this power but he didn't really have say much about it.

[Audreythe2nd]

Jaime is in a terrible position now. He must get Myrcella decently buried, and he also must figure out a way to get Trystane home before anyone kills him. Meanwhile, Trystane, Cersei, Doran, and pretty much everyone except Bronn and the Sandsnakes, will start to wonder if Jaime killed the very niece he was sent to rescue. Two of his own children have died in his arms. People may start to think he's the one doing it.

 

Great point about the position Jaime's in. This somewhat supports a little prediction I made in another thread that, if they manage to divert the ship, or if the ship is diverted via deus ex machina, they might make a stop at Tarth (to escape? to think? to plan? to bury Myrcella? not 100% sure, but there are several possibilities), which is randomly pointed out to be in between the two places earlier in the season. Yes, it could have just been a little Jaime/Brienne nugget, or it could become an important plot point. Just a guess.

[screamin]

I saw someone post elsewhere and I agree, that Littlefinger HAD to tell Cersei about Sansa, just in case word got out some other way.   He didn't know why she was demanding he return to Kings Landing, he couldn't have been positive about what she knew. 

 

I don't know...if Cersei has some spy in Winterfell telling her about Sansa being with the Boltons, then that spy will ALSO know that it was LF himself who brought her there and gave her to them. And if Cersei knew THAT, the only thing she'd want LF for in KL is to cut his head off for harboring Joffrey's murderer.

 

LF's safety in KL absolutely depends on keeping Sansa a secret until the Lannisters are safely out of power. Which is why, no matter how I look at it, LF marketing Sansa off to the Boltons under her own Stark name in a warzone makes absolutely no sense.

Edited June 28, 2015 by screamin

[Advance35]

Oh well.  I totally bought it as laid out.  In season 3 at the height of Lannister power it was made clear Cersei doesn't have any real momentum as a Spy master.   She admitted as much to Tyrion and couldn't even find out what the Tyrell's were up to in Kings Landing.   By telling Cersei where Sansa is, he's managed to move in a way that's convincing of his loyalty to the Throne, places the blame of sheltering Sansa squarely on House Bolton, He now knows that Cersei is looking to become dependant on the Eyrie's military force, he's managed to make a deal where if the situation is resolved to Cersei's liking, she'll have him made Warden of the North,  The man's got nothing but options now.

 

The interesting thing to me about Littlefinger's conversation with Cersei is that he's giving her good advice about the situation with the Tyrells and the High Sparrow. I suppose he knows her well enough to suspect that she won't necessarily consider that he's giving her fair warning that he doesn't think it's a good idea to give the Faith all of this power but he didn't really have say much about it.

 

 

I think that's the secret to LF's success.   All the nobles he schemes with/against are convinced of their own superiority via their bloodline.  "A low cunning pimp like LF couldn't possibly out-maneuver us."   They all know he's a villain they just all think when it comes down to it, they can handle him.

[FemmyV]

 

The interesting thing to me about Littlefinger's conversation with Cersei is that he's giving her good advice about the situation with the Tyrells and the High Sparrow.

 

Except it's not good advice at all, except to Cersei's most narcissistic nature. It might feel great to have Marg and Loras in the cells, the reality is, it's creating further enmity between Tyrell and Lannister, and if Olenna carries through on her threat, the Vale better have food ready and packed to go. Else, KL will go to full rebellion.

 

Further upthread it was remarked, the show is doing an awful job of cueing viewers to how bad conditions are. Every now and then, we get a throwaway scene like Olenna outside the city, mentioning the smell and it was played for laughs. In addition to the Wall stuff, there's unrest all over. The book does better because it references what The Mountain was up to in the River Lands, pissing everyone off.

[Avaleigh]

Except it's not good advice at all, except to Cersei's most narcissistic nature. It might feel great to have Marg and Loras in the cells, the reality is, it's creating further enmity between Tyrell and Lannister, and if Olenna carries through on her threat, the Vale better have food ready and packed to go. Else, KL will go to full rebellion.

Littlefinger was telling Cersei that House Tyrell wasn't going to tolerate being insulted by the Faith like that. I thought he was warning her that there would be serious repercussions for her choice to arm the Faith and that he didn't think this was a wise decision. I'm pretty sure 'wise' was the word he used when he put it to her. 

 

I don't remember him congratulating Cersei for the above two situations as opposed to giving her fair warning that these were two bad moves. 

[Calamity Jane]

Then there's a huge disconnect between what they're writing and what they're showing on the screen. Everything that he's done from keeping their destination a secret to that rah rah speech has been LF manipulating her into being where he needed her to be so that he could eventually take the North

Also, Season One Sansa is the one that got manipulated into doing Cersei's dirty work by writing the letter, right?  She was the epitome of naive and easy to manipulate. 

[FemmyV]

 

I don't remember him congratulating Cersei for the above two situations as opposed to giving her fair warning that these were two bad moves.

 

Somehow, that conversation didn't have as much impact on me as the one where he gave - assuming that's what was said off-camera - Cersei the information to get Loras hauled in, in the first place.

[Avaleigh]

Somehow, that conversation didn't have as much impact on me as the one where he gave - assuming that's what was said off-camera - Cersei the information to get Loras hauled in, in the first place.

I think he knew of course that she had no interest in listening to what he was saying so he played up to her by giving her what she wanted since he still wants her to think that he's on her side. He assists her but not before basically telling her 'hey, btw, this isn't exactly a wise move'. Cersei had warning signs but she chose not to notice them. 

[FemmyV]

I'm going back to re-watch season 1; just wrote up some thoughts in the archive, if anyone wants to play:

 

http://forums.previously.tv/topic/17577-s01e01-winter-is-coming/#entry541989

[crowceilidh]

 

all that blood pouring out of him pooling on the snow

On my screen it looked like the black ghost was forming.

 

Stannis and Brienne save Theon and Sansa (as someone else said on p 3 of this thread)

 

GRRM's books about Tuf always struck me as rehearsing for some aspects of this series.  I found Tuf entirely unlikeable and always felt that keeping reading was a challenge.

[DigitalCount]

It occurred to me recently that Littlefinger left Sansa with Ramsay not because he didn't know what kind of people they were, but because he did. I'm thinking he expected them to maybe knock her around a bit before Stannis came in and smashed the Bolton army to pieces, which probably could have happened if not for the burning.

So in Petyr's plan, either Stannis wins, or Stannis loses after causing huge losses on the Bolton side, after which point he and the Vale forces clean up. And now that Sansa has been (apologies, but it's how he'd see it) suitably soiled by Ramsay, she's an acceptable bride for an up-jumped minor lord. Petyr might be Lord Paramount of the Trident now, but his humble birth would still make marrying a virginal Sansa, Lady of Winterfell and Warden(ess) of the North impossible.

[SeanC]

It occurred to me recently that Littlefinger left Sansa with Ramsay not because he didn't know what kind of people they were, but because he did. I'm thinking he expected them to maybe knock her around a bit before Stannis came in and smashed the Bolton army to pieces, which probably could have happened if not for the burning.

So in Petyr's plan, either Stannis wins, or Stannis loses after causing huge losses on the Bolton side, after which point he and the Vale forces clean up. And now that Sansa has been (apologies, but it's how he'd see it) suitably soiled by Ramsay, she's an acceptable bride for an up-jumped minor lord. Petyr might be Lord Paramount of the Trident now, but his humble birth would still make marrying a virginal Sansa, Lady of Winterfell and Warden(ess) of the North impossible.

The writers explicitly stated that he didn't know.

 

Also, he was able to marry Lysa just fine, and their statuses are roughly equivalent, socially speaking.  And in any event, Sansa isn't "soiled" as far as anybody in Westeros would understand it, and devaluing her status is contrary to his own political needs for her.

Edited August 26, 2015 by SeanC

[DigitalCount]

I wouldn't say Lysa's status was equal to Sansa's. At the time of their marriage, Lysa was a widow with one son--so not particularly fertile--and the Lady Regent (?) of the Vale, with all her power flowing through her son. Outside of the Vale, she was of the family displaced as Lords of the Trident, and not even the first taker for that. Sansa, in contrast, is the last known surviving Stark, with her power rooted in her own status. With the vampires gone, she'd be Lady of Winterfell in her own right, as her own inheritance. Heck, even they knew they needed her (or her fake sister) to hold the North.

I have some but not much regard for what's said off-screen. If he didn't know Ramsay was a sadistic cuffhead, he still intends to make a widow of Sansa, and part of what he used to sweeten the pot was her virginity, as gross as that is. Part of what made Margaery so shippable despite having been married was her lack of a wedding night. So he has to know that Ramsay will get rid of that asap. Tywin explicitly pointed out Lysa's widow status when considering her suitable as a partner for Baelish, so I'd say that's important too. Turning Sansa from an untouched virgin into a non-virginal widow seems like bringing her down (from that POV) while he collects titles to bring himself up. Once everything is concluded, they end up on the same rung; both Paramount rulers with a nice big asterisk next to their names.

Edited August 27, 2015 by DigitalCount

[SeanC]

They're both daughters of great houses.  Sansa is theoretically an heiress, sure, but at the time Baelish has possession of her her heir status is more theoretical than real, and requires considerable exertion to redeem, whereas Lysa grants her husband immediate Lord Protector status over a major military region.  Sure, you can quibble this way and that, but if Baelish is considered a fit husband for Lysa, he should realistically be a fit husband for Sansa, particularly if he's bringing her major military assets that she'd need to actually reclaim her home.