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Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers: Lalalalala! I can't hear you!


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This is spoilery because of one major detail, but it's 95% speculation, so it's much more fitting in this thread.

 

Maleficent's resurrection is what I've thought about. We saw her "die" as a dragon, then we saw her "ghost" form. My theory is that when you kill one of Maleficent's "forms", her other forms (like being human) remain. If the curse brought her ghost form back to the Enchanted Forest, it's possible she reverted back to her pre-curse self. Since then, she might be in hiding, possibly under the library in the mines after Curse 2. She might also be trying to get her Dark Fairy wand back before she pounces. Like Pan and Zelena, it's one of those weird "she died, but she didn't die" sort of things.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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Given that the promo for the show seems to be all Frozen all the time and ABC/Disney has sent their top creative guy to be on set, I'm thinking Frozen is going to feature very, very, very heavily in 4A.

 

Disney sent their top creative guy?  Don't fool yourself.  Frozen has made over a BILLION dollars for Disney in theater tickets alone (according to an article I read) and currently has over 100 books out based on it and that is not taking into account DVD sales and DOLL sales.  They didn't just send their top creative guy.  They won't just send an army of lawyers to keep OUAT from screwing up their golden goose....they'll send NINJA'S if they have to.  NINJA'S!

 

In the promo wasn't Regina wearing Evil Queen drag not a Storybrooke power suit mini?  I wonder why. 

 

My quote button has stopped working mid post so-

"I don't mind doing a Frozen story, but if it's supposed to be the main arc, it's not worth watching if we all know it'll be concluded at the end of 4A.I don't mind doing a Frozen story, but if it's supposed to be the main arc, it's not worth watching if we all know it'll be concluded at the end of 4A."

 

I respect your opinion but here's a different POV...real fairy tales are kind of predictable.  Maybe subconsciously (or consciously for all I know) the writers are playing with staying within a certain structure.  When  a kid has a fairy tale read to them they expect-a hero with a struggle and the hero getting their happy ending.  Maybe the writers recreate an expectation - a villain, a struggle, a magical solution followed by the set up for the next struggle.  Should they do that is another question, but I take it as a subtle homage to the art form they are playing with. 

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A bit more speculation:

After Milah, Rumple left Killian alive and mostly functional. Could've been just arrogance, in that he's not worried about Killian's thirst for vengeance. Or maybe more?

Hook came awfully close to ending Rumple, yet Rumple leaves him alive/mostly functional.

Hook hurt Belle, and Rumple still leaves him alive/mostly functional.

Rumple, a seer, set all this business in motion in the first place. It's possibly all part of some grand scheme. A way, perhaps, to get free of being the Dark One without having to die.

Having Hook's hand on display in a glass case in the pawnshop could be part of that. Say Emma goes into the shop to check up on Henry, or just to express concern about his presence there. She's been in the shop before, of course, but there's so much to see, she might've missed seeing the hand before (I sure did), or hadn't realized its significance, or figured it for a fake - who keeps a real human body part on display like a damn trophy?!? So she finds it, and her magic tells her it's real, and it's really Killian's. She starts freaking out - magic going haywire - Rumple restores it, again a)for the look of things and b) it suits his purposes. Drama!

Edited by Dianthus
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Rumple, a seer, set all this business in motion in the first place. It's possibly all part of some grand scheme. A way, perhaps, to get free of being the Dark One without having to die.

But Rumple doesn't want to be free of being the Dark One. If he wanted that he wouldn't have stopped the TLK with Belle that was about to break the Dark One curse, or he would have True Love Kissed her now. But he loves his power more than anything, so, I don't think he wants to get rid of it. Maybe he know something about the future and he needs Hook for something, and that's why he hasn't killed him yet. But I don't think it has anything to do with the Dark One curse. And it would be really silly to give that much power to your enemy.

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Maybe he's not ready to give up the power yet, but he's leaving himself an out? IDK. Just spitballing here. I don't see that he's necessarily giving Hook that much power over him. Ultimately, the others are all just pawns in whatever game he's playing.

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Rumple, a seer, set all this business in motion in the first place. It's possibly all part of some grand scheme. A way, perhaps, to get free of being the Dark One without having to die

But Rumple doesn't want to be free of being the Dark One. If he wanted that he wouldn't have stopped the TLK with Belle that was about to break the Dark One curse, or he would have True Love Kissed her now.

 

Rumple may not want to get rid of the Dark One's power but I'm sure after the events with Zelena he'd may want to get rid of the dagger part of the curse. 

 

So maybe it is what Dianthus is speculating could be true if we think of Rumple's goal is to keep the power but lose the dagger.

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But Rumple doesn't want to be free of being the Dark One. If he wanted that he wouldn't have stopped the TLK with Belle that was about to break the Dark One curse, or he would have True Love Kissed her now. But he loves his power more than anything, so, I don't think he wants to get rid of it. Maybe he know something about the future and he needs Hook for something, and that's why he hasn't killed him yet. But I don't think it has anything to do with the Dark One curse. And it would be really silly to give that much power to your enemy.

He was about to kill Hook in 321 until Emma stopped him, so I don't think there's really any deeper reason there. In 204 he says he's leaving Hook alive to suffer, and then they don't meet again (321 trip to the past excluded) until mid-S2, at which point Belle is there and wouldn't be cool with him killing Hook. And while the weight of Emma's feelings for Hook in S2 is debatable, I'll point out he uses a threat to Hook's life to get Emma to come with him NOW ("any minute I stay here is a minute closer to me killing Hook", or something similar) so he may also have been keeping him alive as leverage against Emma.

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He was about to kill Hook in 321 until Emma stopped him, so I don't think there's really any deeper reason there. In 204 he says he's leaving Hook alive to suffer, and then they don't meet again (321 trip to the past excluded) until mid-S2, at which point Belle is there and wouldn't be cool with him killing Hook. And while the weight of Emma's feelings for Hook in S2 is debatable, I'll point out he uses a threat to Hook's life to get Emma to come with him NOW ("any minute I stay here is a minute closer to me killing Hook", or something similar) so he may also have been keeping him alive as leverage against Emma.

Oh, yes, I know. I was just answering a previous post. And, really, the writers don't think things that in advance. If Rumple hasn't killed Hook is because the writers want Hook on the show.

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Songs from "Frozen" that will appear in Season 4 of "Once Upon a Time":

 

1. "Frozen Heart Works Just As Well as No Heart and Half a Heart"

2. "Do You Want To Have As Much Character Development As a Snowman?"

3. "For The First Time In Forever There Might Be An Episode That Doesn't Suck"

4. "The Half-Season Villain Slot Is An Open Door"

5. "Let It Go Except For Snow Murdered Cora That We Can Never Let Go"

Edited by Camera One
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Songs from "Frozen" that will appear in Season 4 of "Once Upon a Time":

If there are no references to the Frozen songs, A&E have no sense of humor. This half-season is going to be uber campy with its theme, so it'd be the perfect time for some much needed comic relief. Though, now that I've said that it probably won't happen.

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Exclusive sneak peek of the first scenes from Season 4.

 

GRANNY'S DINER - Interior

 

The door opens and BLUE FAIRY and TINKERBELLE enters.

 

BLUE: Tink and I finally succeeded in concocting three elixirs.  This one will immobilize Zelena.  This one will close the time portal.  And this one will restore everyone's brain function back to normal.

 

CHARMING: Didn't you get the memo from the passenger pigeon?  Zelena died already and Emma went back in time and closed the time portal.

 

BLUE: Oh.  

 

TINKERBELLE (gestures to Robin and Regina): Ooh, look at the love birds over there.  

 

SNOW: Uh...

 

MEANWHILE, IN ANOTHER BOOTH IN THE DINER.

 

ROBIN: Marion, this is Regina.  She's bold and audacious, and saved Roland's life.

 

MARION: Emma said you're Regina, not the Evil Queen anymore.  I drank the Kool-Aid and ate the lasagna, so now I trust you.

 

ROBIN: What happened to you, Marion?  I thought you died.

 

MARION: Sorry, I can't disclose that until the flashback in Episode 4.  Until then, I will need to be vague.  

 

MEANWHILE, BACK IN THE OTHER BOOTH

 

CHARMING:  So now what do we do.  Should we find a way back to the Enchanted Forest?  Do we stay in Storybrooke?  If we're staying here, what governmental system should we implement in the town and how do we include input from the rulers of the various kingdoms from the Enchanted Forest in our political structure?

 

SNOW: And Emma, let's discuss your childhood, your abandonment issues, your feelings about home, your breakup with Walsh, your growing feelings towards Hook, and your mommy and daddy issues.  

 

HENRY: Wait a minute, why is there a sudden snowstorm outside, and did the window just frost over?

 

CHARMING: Oh good timing.  Let's go avert Armageddon, everyone!  

Edited by Camera One
  • Love 4
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I would love a storyline that brings back protective mama!Snow. If Regina threatens or acts rude to Emma in anger for bringing Marian back, I would love for Snow to stand up to Regina over it. I want her to say, "You stole 28 years from my family. And that's more than enough." I can only wish...

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I would love a storyline that brings back protective mama!Snow. If Regina threatens or acts rude to Emma in anger for bringing Marian back, I would love for Snow to stand up to Regina over it. I want her to say, "You stole 28 years from my family. And that's more than enough." I can only wish...

Maybe if this was another show, one where the characters acted like real people and not like members of a sect (the Church of Saint Woegina).

Edited by RadioGirl27
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From the Spoilers thread, no spoilers:

 

Every new interview makes me hate them even more. I actually want to see a bad guy that is not related to any of the other characters, who has a real, meaningful reason for being a bad guy and not because some ridiculous and contrived reason like envy, or that is a bad guy just because he is a bad person, without a tearful past.

I totally agree! I'd love to see Hans join the show as a secondary character. He's not an evil mastermind who muahahas everywhere - he's just an all-around jerk. I'd ship him with Regina. He'd be a great minor antagonist who's just rude and annoying like "Scott". I know he has ties to Frozen, but if Frozen leaves after 4A he wouldn't have connections with anybody.

 

He'd totally marry Regina since she's a "queen" and all.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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I'm going on nothing, since I haven't read any spoilers.  So right now, I'm wondering if the trend is going to continue, whereby 4A will be better than 4B?  I suppose it's all going to depend on whether "Frozen" grips me, which will depend on the casting and whether the overarching "Frozen" backstory is engaging enough, since they will no doubt reveal what really happened to Anna and Elsa in bits and pieces.  

 

I've pretty much given up hope that we will get another proper Emma/Snow/Charming arc exploring their relationship with one another.  I just hope we at least get a scene with the three of them together every third episode.  I expect the screentime will be 1/3 Frozen, 1/3 Outlaw Queen triangle and 1/3 Captain Swan and Rumbelle.

 

I hope they don't keep Elsa "evil" for long.  Since I wouldn't enjoy the exact same plotline as the movie playing out, whereby Elsa AGAIN isolates herself and Anna AGAIN has to convince her to come back.  Been there, done that.  It better be something new in terms of what Elsa is working through.

Edited by Camera One
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So right now, I'm wondering if the trend is going to continue, whereby 4A will be better than 4B?

 

I'm guessing this is dependent on how much you like Regina. I believe that Regina's love triangle with the Marian/Robin storyline and Rumpel's connection with Elsa and the urn means that Regina will not be as connected with the Frozen arc in 4A. Thus, you can choose to skip most of her drama and still know what's going on with the main Frozen/big bad arc. Of course, she'll probably pop up 10-11 episodes in to save the day after everyone else runs around doing nothing for the rest of the season, but mostly, I expect the main story to be less Regina-centric. 4B, on the other hand, I expect to be all Regina all the time. So if you're a Regina fan, 4B may be the place to be. Otherwise, 4A is more likely to be the most enjoyable. 

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If Anna goes searching for Elsa in the backstory this season, then I am guessing...

 

1) There will be a flashback of Snow being on the run from Regina (yes, A&E's favorite time period) and she will meet and help Anna

2) Elsa and/or Anna goes to Rumple for help.  But magic always comes with a price!  

 

I am also guessing that Elsa will be blamed for the eternal winter, but it is not her fault.  Woe is her.  

 

Regina will get to sing a rendition of "Let It Go" with different lyrics:

 

The first verse:

 

I asked Robin over for dinner tonight

Not a footprint to be seen

No one likes my lasagna
How dare they.  I'm the queen.

 

And the chorus, in lieu of Let It Go:

 

I blame Snow, I blame Snow

Can't let her live anymore

I blame Snow, I blame Snow

Kill her now she's such a bore!

I don't care
What they're going to say
Let the whole town die
Murder never bothered me anyway!

  • Love 5
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Okay, I'm confused, and really annoyed, which might be impeding my processing.

 

Is Regina still planning on changing the past and getting rid of Marian--because she didn't unmirror Sidney, and she said that was the reason she was putting him in the mirror.  Saving Marian doesn't necessarily mean she's not planning on getting rid of Marian; she might want to get rid of Marian in a sneakier, not suspicious, fashion.

 

Also, there's been speculation that Marian is actually evil, or someone masquerading as Marian--or that Marian had originally escaped and someone else killed her.

 

How on the table do those seem to be right now?

Edited by Mari
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She made such a point about finding the writer so I'm thinking she's putting Marian aside for the moment in favor of her delusion that the writer of the book  grants happy endings.  If/when she finds whoever this person and learns that only she has the power to find her happy ending, then I expect she'll return to the plan to get rid of Marian via time travel.  Because Regina won't truly learn anything until the final season when hashtags and shipping no longer matter.

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So with the hat, I'm wondering who owns it. Yen Sid is probably most likely, I'm also thinking it could be Merlin. I don't believe it's Zoso because the house didn't come until the second curse according to Belle.

 

So do houses come with curses now? I thought the real estate was planned out already, since Regina gave Rumple and herself mansions.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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The hat is the one Mickey Mouse wears in the Sorcerer's Apprentice segment of Fantasia.

 

I wonder if the author of the Book is either someone who is famous in fairytale lore or is someone we've already met.

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I have seen some speculation about the fact that "Yen Sid" in Fantasia is supposed to be an anagram of "Disney," and so is "Sidney" (though I don't know if that one was deliberate; also I really can't see Sidney being a super powerful sorcerer or owning that house). But just putting it out there.

 

After Robin's speech about his past, I wonder if they're going to reveal that he was also "evil" before getting into the "rob the rich to give to the poor" game. I'll gag if they do.

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I've been thinking about the Book. Regina is looking for the writer now. August messed with the book. He put in his own story but as he told Henry he left the end off because they are living it now. Maybe that's why his character had such a crappy end. There was no end written so he went back to the beginning (or near enough to he beginning since a cute child actor is cheaper than crappy CGI). It still feels crappy but it makes a bit of sense.

Be careful what ending you ask for Regina! 

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I've been thinking about the Book. Regina is looking for the writer now.

 

 

Yes. Regina's theory about the book was total malarky because we just saw in the 3B finale that the book can be changed. The book seems to only record what happens, much like Glinda's book of records. It doesn't mandate what happens, otherwise it wouldn't have gone blank during the time travel charade. It's probably just Regina being delusional, but it's obviously a big plot point for the season, so I wonder why it seems important to find the author.

Henry has to have a good reason for helping Regina find him/her too.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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There were a couple of things in this week's episode that practically had the "Dun dun DUNNNNN" of foreshadowing on the soundtrack.

 

One was Hook's "I've got all the time in the world -- unless a monster kills me" (or however that went) line. Which pretty much guarantees that something will happen to make Emma at least think Hook is lost or dead before she has the chance to tell him how she feels or otherwise indicate that she's not really pushing him away.

 

And then there's the bit about Regina wanting to find the author of the book so she can get what she deserves and make it so that villains get happy endings. As I said in the episode thread, if this were any other show and any character other than Regina, then I might think that was a big bit of foreshadowing. It's just plain bad luck to ever say you want to get what you deserve because the universe may have a different view than you do of what you deserve. Regina deserves a prison cell, at the very least. The last time I checked, they don't open the prison doors and let murderers go just because they haven't killed anyone lately. She wouldn't like what she "deserves," but on this show they seem to think Regina deserves all the good things, all at once, so we'll see if that line has any meaning.

 

I'm more inclined to think they may actually do something with that idea of what the world would be like if villains got their happy endings. Regina may just want to have her son adore her (and maybe be less thrilled about his birth mother) and get a romantic happily ever after while the whole town/kingdom forgets everything she ever did to them, but I'm thinking it wouldn't be such a good thing for most other villains to get their idea of a happy ending, and Regina might regret anything she did to alter that. She might actually really become a victim and have something to cry about. I'm sure there are some bad people whose idea of a happy ending would involved Regina suffering.

  • Love 3
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... but I'm thinking it wouldn't be such a good thing for most other villains to get their idea of a happy ending, and Regina might regret anything she did to alter that. She might actually really become a victim and have something to cry about. I'm sure there are some bad people whose idea of a happy ending would involved Regina suffering.

If that's where they were going with this, it could be interesting.  Rumple or Maleficent, for example, are both villains and I'd imagine that their idea of a happy ending would be considerably different than Regina's, and Regina would not like it.

 

I'll cross my fingers that's what happens, but, well, I'm not sure they've any interest in seeing Regina have any actual consequences for her actions.  So far, Regina hasn't even had natural fallout because of her actions, let alone justice. 

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I'm really hoping that the writing happy endings for villains is something they'd be willing to explore. If they wanted to be truly creative with it, they could make it so that they change the book and everyone ends up in some weird alternate reality where everyone wants to be a villain rather than a hero. Even if they only went for a setting where Regina gets her happy ending that she "deserves" and finding it to be really, really unsatisfying, I'd be on board for an exploration of a storyline where villains get happy endings written for them (without actually doing the work to earn it) and seeing what happens. There'd also be interesting stories for Hook & Rumpel with this idea too.

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Even if they want to put her in prison how could they? It would be interesting if they could have some sort of Truth and Reconciliation committee. You'd think Belle or Dr Hopper would have thought of something like that.  It could be powerful character writing. I'm just not sure anyone could really accomplish it satisfactorily. 

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I'm really hoping that the writing happy endings for villains is something they'd be willing to explore.

 

Hehe. Rumple becomes the most powerful magic wielder ever, he gets Neal back, and Lacey is his lovely assistant. Regina is the Evil Queen of Storybrooke, Snow is in prison, Charming is dead, Henry adores her, Robin is her husband and Emma's out of the picture. Pan is chilling in Neverland with no memory of being Malcolm or having a son, he's playing with Lost Boys, and he has eternal youth. Cora is ruling the Enchanted Forest with Zelena as her princess. Hook is sailing the Jolly Roger across the realms with Emma, who is full-on pirate.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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I'm actually afraid this will be the writers' next big reset at the end of 4A or 4B.  The villains get their happy endings since the entire book was rewritten.  But no worries everyone, it will all be reversed by the very next episode.

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I'm actually afraid this will be the writers' next big reset at the end of 4A or 4B.  The villains get their happy endings since the entire book was rewritten.

This is actually a reset I could totally get on board with. If the writers played their cards right, it could span the entire 4B storyline. It would also be a great way to bring in some villains from the past and have them all come together for a villain summit to discuss the "rules" of this wish fulfillment. (Because you know there's going to be a lot of rules tweaking they'll have to do to pacify everyone.) If Villain A's happy ending is for Villain B to be dead, well... that wish couldn't be fulfilled because Villain B's happy ending is obviously to be alive. I can just imagine a big meeting between all the villains arguing about what happy endings they deserve and who gets to kill who.

 

However...

But no worries everyone, it will all be reversed by the very next episode.

Yeah. That part scares me.

Edited by Curio
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I'd like to see an apocalyptic distopia on the show. If they're doing the Back to the Future parallels, this would be Part 2. It would have fit well in 3B. Hook, Emma and maybe Regina could go to a timeline where Zelena basically replaces Regina. She's mayor of Storybrooke, and it's even worse than what it was before. I'd like to see the tables flipped with Regina being a lowly peasant/citizen against a tyrant. Take magic out, too.

 

But anyway, if the book thing happens, I'm totally on board.

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Season 4 Episode 2 - Evil Mickey Mouse comes to Storybrooke to reclaim his hat.  He steals Elsa's white gloves, making her magic go out of control, freezing the entire town.  In flashbacks, we watch Anna's ship getting blown off-course.  Instead of landing in the Enchanted Forest, she embarks on a mysterious land inhabited by Ronald McDonald and his friends Grimace and Hamburglar.  

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Adam and Eddy have said it time and again, this show is about hope, so doubt they will do any dystopia on it (they could have before with Pan's attempt on the dark curse). It would be some superficial, exuberant and thus obnoxious version of dystopia if, taken too serious to be campy but too campy to be taken serious. No thanks. Not saying it couldn't be an interesting set up for a show, just that it is not for this show and these writers.

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Adam and Eddy have said it time and again, this show is about hope, so doubt they will do any dystopia on it (they could have before with Pan's attempt on the dark curse). It would be some superficial, exuberant and thus obnoxious version of dystopia if, taken too serious to be campy but too campy to be taken serious. No thanks. Not saying it couldn't be an interesting set up for a show, just that it is not for this show and these writers.

You can still have a dystopia with hope. Regina's kingdom was a dictatorship. It wouldn't be a permanent thing. I'd say the campiness of it would be the best part. A serious Hunger Games style setting would be extremely boring on this show.

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I'd totally read a fanfic about all villains getting their happy endings and the heroes having to mount a resistance (eventually). Not sure how it would work on the show, though.

 

Well, wasn't the initial concept of this show very similar to that? Regina (the villain) was supposed to get her "happy ending" by having a new life in Storybrooke... and then the hero (Emma) eventually had to defeat her?

Edited by Curio
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The first thing Snow would do is to make sure Regina was alright. I feel that a True Love's Kiss between Regina and Snow is more likely to happen in this Show somewhere down the line, than one between Emma and her parents.

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 I think however, with Snow involved in running the town, we'll probably be short changed there.

Honestly, I've come to expect the worst.  I'm fully expecting her to be off mostly in her own story, overwhelmed and do a bad job of being mayor, so that everyone will come to realize how much better life was when Regina was mayor.  I'm also expecting lots of condescending "help" and commentary from Regina as the story progresses.

  • Love 3
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Honestly, I've come to expect the worst.  I'm fully expecting her to be off mostly in her own story, overwhelmed and do a bad job of being mayor, so that everyone will come to realize how much better life was when Regina was mayor.  I'm also expecting lots of condescending "help" and commentary from Regina as the story progresses.

And I'm pretty sure that at some point Snow is going to ask Regina for help with Snowflake, because we all know that Regina is the best mother in the world.

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