Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers: Lalalalala! I can't hear you!

[stealinghome]

What if Marian was lying about helping Snow?  Why did her family think she was already dead?  Would Snow recognize Marian in the here and now?  If what she told Emma was true, Snow White should recognize her, right?  What if she doesn't and Emma thinks there is something fishy and no one believes her (like the whole Tamara debacle).

Marian never said she knew Snow, though. She said that she knew where Snow White was and refused to reveal it, but that doesn't mean that she knew Snow personally--and in fact, Marian said something that made me think she didn't know Snow personally (something like "I believe her to be innocent"? It wasn't the way you talk about someone you know). At any rate, it was strongly implied that other people in that village (as well as the people in the village in 'The Evil Queen' that Regina massacred) knew where Snow was, and I highly doubt Snow knew everyone in those villages personally. If anything, it seems to have been actually kind of an open secret where Snow was, and that's what pissed Regina off--that everyone knew and no one would tell her.

[Camera One]

Side note: I think it's funny they used an actress who was in only one scene and didn't even have a line to be a focal point for a major plot later on.

I am assuming they thought ahead and knew they would be bringing her back. Or not, since they weren't "smart" enough to secure the return of that original Robin Hood actor. He was intense.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Or not, since they weren't "smart" enough to secure the return of that original Robin Hood actor. He was intense.

 

Replying in Robin Hood thread.

[KAOS Agent]

Honestly, if this show goes with Marian = Zelena, I'm out. There are so many plot holes in that that I just can't overlook it. Also, please God no more Zelena. Marian will most likely die, opening the way for Outlaw Queen to be the Truest Love That Ever Loved, bigger than Snowing even. It will be from the heart and soul. No one can top this epic love!

[YaddaYadda]

So, I don't really get where the whole Marian could be Zelena is coming from.  The time period they went back to, Zelena should be in Oz. 

[ShadowFacts]

My speculation, if they were to go this route with Zelena as Marian:  the green smoke we saw going from her jail cell through the town to Regina's vault of hearts to the barn is not just the time travel spell, but Zelena herself.  Then she would have traveled back with Emma and Killian, maybe lurked around checking out what was going on, and shapeshifting into Marian.  Though for what reason, who knows?  She wanted to erase Regina and nothing like that happened.

[Mari]

I'm still in the "Marian-is-Zelena" conspiracy theory camp. Bottom line: something's off about Marian. Hopefully some fairybacks in S4 can clear up why her and Robin's circumstances are the way they are.

 

 

My speculation, if they were to go this route with Zelena as Marian:  the green smoke we saw going from her jail cell through the town to Regina's vault of hearts to the barn is not just the time travel spell, but Zelena herself.  Then she would have traveled back with Emma and Killian, maybe lurked around checking out what was going on, and shapeshifting into Marian.  Though for what reason, who knows?  She wanted to erase Regina and nothing like that happened.

I can see why people think that, and those are some theories I can see the show trying, but I am desperately hoping you are wrong.   I am tired of the good guys behaving decently and morally, only to be told by the show that what they did actually makes them the bad guy in the situation.    We've already heard from Regina how thoughtless and stupid Emma was for saving someone's life.  The show then reinforced that by flipping to the Elsa-barn-scene, so I don't expect the "Emma what did you do?!  How dare you!" to stop any time soon.

 

If they then make Marian evil, too?  Just, please, no.

[Shanna Marie]

Didn't we go through the whole Hook pulls away thing when he had the cursed lips? Emo!Hook was thankfully limited, but during that time Emma did notice and express concern about Hook's lack of humor, his drinking, his withdrawal from the family dinner and then tried to playfully use her magic to cheer him up and tried to seriously discuss it with him.

I don't think it's quite the same thing. They weren't in a relationship at the time, so she had no particular expectation of behavior from him (other than maybe realizing that she kind of liked the flirting and missed it when he stopped). It wasn't like he was a regular at the family dinners at Granny's and suddenly stopped. He wasn't even the one seeking her out at the time. Her awareness and concern about him amounted to about one scene of "gee, someone's cranky," trying to cheer him up, then asking what's wrong before getting sidetracked by the latest crisis. The situation wasn't resolved by them working through anything together, but by Zelena talking about the curse in front of Emma, which forced him to fess up. I think it's also different that he knew exactly what was going on and wasn't talking to her about it, rather than not knowing why he was out of sorts. If written well (yeah, I know, not holding my breath here) I think there's something interesting that could be done here. But I'm afraid I may have to wait for another show to do it or find a way to steal that storyline for my own uses.

[KingOfHearts]

 

The show then reinforced that by flipping to the Elsa-barn-scene, so I don't expect the "Emma what did you do?!  How dare you!" to stop any time soon.

I actually interpreted that as a segway from "you better hope to hell you didn't bring anything else back", and then it shows they did.

 

Between now and a Zelena-reveal, Regina could accept what Emma did was right. If it is Zelena, then I don't expect it to be revealed until late 4A or 4B. I'm not dead set on the theory, but like Rumple says, "I never rule out anything."

 

I have this sneaking suspicion Robin is going to choose Regina over Marian. With their romantic fireplace scene about "timing" and how Regina revealed to him about the tattoo, they seem to have the green light. This show also highlights moving on from your past. If Robin goes back to his old wife after accepting her loss, then that's sort of a backtrack for him. I don't necessarily agree with him choosing Regina, but this is Once. Regina not getting her happy ending is crazy talk.

Edited July 19, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

And it's too bad, because Robin Hood is Blandy McBlanderson and has very little chemistry with Lana Parrilla. If the showrunners had their heads screwed on straight, they'd use Marian's return to break up Regina and Robin and ultimately introduce a love interest that's a better match for Regina.

 

But they've clearly put all their eggs in the Outlaw Queen basket, so that's not happening.

 

I have this sneaking suspicion Robin is going to choose Regina over Marian.

I expect him to pull a full-on, "I am an angsty white guy look at ALL MY MANPAIN but feel bad for me despite the fact that my angst stems from the fact that I am A TOTAL BAG OF DICKS," Derek Shepherd-style Season of Being a Total Asshole first, though. The problem is, Sean Maguire can't hold a candle to Patrick Dempsey, Dempsey and Ellen Pompeo have mad chemistry, Derek being torn between Addison and Meredith is really not the same thing at all as a guy being torn between his presumed-dead, beloved (theoretically) wife and the "reformed" Pol Pot-style dictator who killed her in the original timeline, and back in S2 Grey's was actually still decently written (whereas that ship sailed for Once a looooong time ago).

Edited July 19, 2014 by stealinghome

[RadioGirl27]

And it's too bad, because Robin Hood is Blandy McBlanderson and has very little chemistry with Lana Parrilla. If the showrunners had their heads screwed on straight, they'd use Marian's return to break up Regina and Robin and ultimately introduce a love interest that's a better match for Regina.

 

But they've clearly put all their eggs in the Outlaw Queen basket, so that's not happening.

If they really want to redeem Regina, they should use Marian as a way for her to grow up and face the consecuences of her past actions, and them, later, bring another love interest more suitable for Regina.

[stealinghome]

If they really want to redeem Regina, they should use Marian as a way for her to grow up and face the consecuences of her past actions, and them, later, bring another love interest more suitable for Regina.

Oh, I totally agree, believe me. My idea resolution for the storyline, at this point, is for Robin to be appalled, actually open his eyes and realize that "bold and audacious" actually meant "killer of a lot of people, including my wife," and say "I just can't be with Regina knowing that she killed my wife in the past timeline." Paving the way for Robin and Marian to reunite and go live in Offscreenville with Roland (though if they want to bring Roland back once or twice a season to up the cuteness factor, I really wouldn't complain). Meanwhile, Regina, who now actually feels remorse and understands that she did bad things (instead of No Regrets Regina, she's now Some Regrets Regina?), has a real redemption arc, struggles to be good, and ultimately meets someone who's a way better match for her (and whose actor/actress has smoking chemistry with Lana P).

 

But I just think the writers have invested way too much in Outlaw Queen, and have too much of a permaboner for Regina in general, to have the wisdom and sense to do that. They're so pigheaded that, despite the fact that Outlaw Queen has been met with enough of a "meh" that they could easily do this, they won't.

[Mari]

If they really want to redeem Regina, they should use Marian as a way for her to grow up and face the consecuences of her past actions, and them, later, bring another love interest more suitable for Regina.

 

 

Oh, I totally agree, believe me. My idea resolution for the storyline, at this point, is for Robin to be appalled, actually open his eyes and realize that "bold and audacious" actually meant "killer of a lot of people, including my wife," and say "I just can't be with Regina knowing that she killed my wife in the past timeline." Paving the way for Robin and Marian to reunite and go live in Offscreenville with Roland (though if they want to bring Roland back once or twice a season to up the cuteness factor, I really wouldn't complain). Meanwhile, Regina, who now actually feels remorse and understands that she did bad things (instead of No Regrets Regina, she's now Some Regrets Regina?), has a real redemption arc, struggles to be good, and ultimately meets someone who's a way better match for her (and whose actor/actress has smoking chemistry with Lana P).

This is what I'd like to see happen, too, except the show-runners seem to think they already have written a truly meaningful redemption for Regina, and that she is now a hero whose unhappiness is being caused by her thoughtless arch-rival, Emma, and her accomplices, Marian and Hook.

[yeswedo]

Reminder that this is the speculation without spoilers thread. Casting news is not typically considered a spoiler. If there is information you feel needs a spoiler tag it should really be put in the spoilers thread. PM one of the mods if you have questions about what is or isn't a spoiler. Thanks!

[Camera One]

My idea resolution for the storyline, at this point, is for Robin to be appalled, actually open his eyes and realize that "bold and audacious" actually meant "killer of a lot of people, including my wife," and say "I just can't be with Regina knowing that she killed my wife in the past timeline." Paving the way for Robin and Marian to reunite and go live in Offscreenville with Roland (though if they want to bring Roland back once or twice a season to up the cuteness factor, I really wouldn't complain).

 

Unfortunately, I think that ship has pretty much sailed with Robin and even that reaction can't buy back the jawdropping nonchalance over "The Evil Queen" in Robin's eyes.  They didn't even have a transitional period when he was sickened by Regina and then somehow, it changed when Regina saved Roland (that would have been unbelievable as well but at least it would show somewhat of a normal first response).  If Robin Hood suddenly reacts strongly now, it would only seem selfish... so he only has a problem NOW with Regina and only because she targeted Marion, but he was fine with Regina before since she only targeted other people?  

 

 

 

Meanwhile, Regina, who now actually feels remorse and understands that she did bad things (instead of No Regrets Regina, she's now Some Regrets Regina?), has a real redemption arc, struggles to be good, and ultimately meets someone who's a way better match for her (and whose actor/actress has smoking chemistry with Lana P).  But I just think the writers have invested way too much in Outlaw Queen, and have too much of a permaboner for Regina in general, to have the wisdom and sense to do that. They're so pigheaded that, despite the fact that Outlaw Queen has been met with enough of a "meh" that they could easily do this, they won't.

 

I hope for that too.  Sometimes, I wonder if it's the fan response that affects their writing, but other times, I think it's what you say... what we are seeing on the show just reveals what THEY are obsessed about. Mainly Regina.  But from S3, it's also the whole concept of Belle idiotically thinking the best of Rumple, the temporary baddies Peter Pan and Zelena, plus Captain Swan.  If we're seeing lots of something, it's because A&E are loving it.  Unfortunately, since so much time was spent on Robin/Regina, that might be another of their "investments".

Edited July 21, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

I really hope to see a realm-jump this season, similar to 3A or 2A. I know that concept has its problems, but being in Storybrooke in 3B wasn't very exciting. Since they don't focus on secondary characters or town affairs, there really isn't much left to explore in SB. Granted it's one of the show's staples, and will always be there to the end, but the constant trips to Granny's Diner seems to get old to me. S1 and early 2A did a great job of portraying Storybrooke, but lately it's more of just a setting than an actual part of the plot, if that makes sense.

 

If they go after Anna in a urn on the Jolly Roger, I'm game.

Edited July 21, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I agree with that.  I do like Storybrooke, but I keep hoping we'll drop in to see what's happening at the nunnery or Charming/Snow/Emma dealing with town problems, but since we never do that, why even be there?

 

I suppose Storybrooke is more cost-effective and doesn't over-emphasize CGI (which some viewers don't like when it's too much).  With Neverland, they could use the same jungle set for the entire half-season.

 

Arendelle should be reasonably easy to shoot.  They just need to find a fiord near Vancouver which resembles Norway.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

 

Sometimes, I wonder if it's the fan response that affects their writing, but other times, I think it's what you say... what we are seeing on the show just reveals what THEY are obsessed about. Mainly Regina.

 

My absolute favorite response from the showrunners in 3B was something along the lines of how we'd waited 60 episodes for Regina to open her heart and wasn't it so wonderful to see. I mean, that's really how they see it. It wasn't about building a relationship or how it did (or did not) develop, it was all about Regina and that was it. That it pretty much came out of nowhere, involved massive handwaving by a hero whose main character trait is fighting for the masses against tyrannical oppression and was essentially based completely on some nonsensical pixie dust knows all insta-love was not even a piece of their thinking. And I know that there are plenty of Evil Regals who are also very disappointed and confused about the sudden Outlaw Queen development, so it's not like Regina fans were super delighted either. So going forward, I don't expect anything to change in this story because I think A&E are genuinely clueless about how that entire storyline was taken. Especially given their response to Emma bringing Marian back with her. It's crushed Regina's life! So endless Woegina tears and Marian hating and Emma blaming will be happening.  

 

 

I do like Storybrooke, but I keep hoping we'll drop in to see what's happening at the nunnery or Charming/Snow/Emma dealing with town problems, but since we never do that, why even be there?

 

When this show goes all fantasy, people get very bored because they doesn't do fantasy well at all. Their world building is absolute crap and they either break or don't even have rules for magic. Storybrooke at least forces them to be grounded somewhere. Also, Henry needs to go to school and Baby Snowflake needs to stay in one place. I'm still hoping for some kind of freeze on magic in Storybrooke from the Frozen contingent or a removal of magic in 4B. Make these people go back to abiding by real world rules. Or at the very least go back to the original concept of magic working differently here. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

I'm still hoping for some kind of freeze on magic in Storybrooke from the Frozen contingent or a removal of magic in 4B. Make these people go back to abiding by real world rules. Or at the very least go back to the original concept of magic working differently here.

This. All this. I also want more Land Without Magic integration. (Going outside SB, outsiders coming to SB, that sort of thing)

 

If they do realm-jump, I would like it to just be maybe Captain Swan going after the Jolly Roger or something. The Charmings, Regina and Henry really shouldn't be going anywhere right now.

 

I'm still waiting for that villain whose intent is to take over the Land Without Magic.

Edited July 21, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

I agree with that.  I do like Storybrooke, but I keep hoping we'll drop in to see what's happening at the nunnery or Charming/Snow/Emma dealing with town problems, but since we never do that, why even be there?

I suppose Storybrooke is more cost-effective and doesn't over-emphasize CGI (which some viewers don't like when it's too much).

Honestly, it's (yet another) case of the showrunners wanting to have it both ways. They know that the initial conceit for the show, the one that attracted a lot of attention, was the idea of fairytale characters in the real world. And they know that they can't drop that conceit, so they keep Storybrooke around. BUT, because they aren't actually interested in the real world at all, they keep it around in a way that just does lip service to the idea of "fairytale characters in the real world" without being at all faithful to the spirit of the idea. Hence why Storybrooke is now basically an extension of the Enchanted Forest, with slightly better technology and less cool (though more comfortable) clothing.

 

This. All this. I also want more Land Without Magic integration. (Going outside SB, outsiders coming to SB, that sort of thing)

I actually wonder if the poor reception of the Greg/Tamara storyline (because it was an awfully written storyline, guys) has scared them off of doing more of that.

Edited July 21, 2014 by stealinghome

[KingOfHearts]

 

They know that the initial conceit for the show, the one that attracted a lot of attention, was the idea of fairytale characters in the real world.

That is why I want more real world stuff. Neverland was okay because it wasn't super magical - the fairy tale characters were still out of their element. But what I really got out of it was the slower paced writing that made it ripe for actual character moments. If they went to Oz like they did Neverland... I don't even want to picture the mess they would have caused.

 

If magic leaves Storybrooke somehow, something's going to go down. I'll be there with popcorn to watch it happen. The magic users (Regina/Rumple) would actually have to use teamwork! Imagine that! All their insecurities are just waiting to be exposed.

Edited July 21, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[retrograde]

On the plus-side, I suspect we'll be in Storybrooke for all of 3A, other than flashbacks. On the downside, I suspect we'll get very little of the town, other than the main characters. Maybe also Red. Grumpy/Archie/Marco/Smee will occasionally appear to deliver exposition/get injured. 

 

Maybe it's crazy, but I'm holding out hope for 4B. (Though if they don't go to a different world this time, they probably will then, so... feh.)

[Camera One]

So I was just thinking of the major possibilities for Robin/Marion

 

1. Marion and Robin reconcile, despite Robin's torn feelings and Regina must deal with it.  Eventually, they leave happily ever after.  Robin/Marion endgame.

2. Marion and Robin reconcile for awhile, and then Marion dies in a tragic accident.  Regina helps Robin grieve.  Robin/Regina endgame.

3. Marion and Robin reconcile, and Marion turns out to be evil.    Robin/Regina endgame.

4. Robin can't stop loving Regina, and they sneak around behind Marion's back.  Marion leaves Robin.  Robin/Regina endgame.

 

#4 is not likely.  It's probably a toss-up between #2 and #3, though if that were the case, wouldn't Robin have become a regular?  The fact that he isn't might be an indicator for #1.

[retrograde]

5. Robin decides he can't decide, says "I choose Roland. I only have room for one love in my life." (Love a Once parallel). Goes off to live with his son in the forest. 

6. Regina and Marian end up falling in love.

7. Robin dies. 

8. It was all a dream.

 

(I actually think 7 is a real possibility, I'm just not sure what the writers' goal would be in doing so).

[Serena]

I'm hoping for 1. or 7., but could end up settling for 6.

But yeah, seriously, the fact that Robin isn't a regular is the only thing that's making me think OQ may not be endgame. They already know that they may possibly be in deep shit if Sean gets a better offer (I mean, he's not likely to, but he could), and they've already made Belle a regular when they decided she and Rumple were endgame, so why not Robin?

[KingOfHearts]

7. Robin dies.

 

 

I would really love for this to happen. That would really be an epic tragedy. It might be too dark for a Disney show though, since Roland would be losing his dad just to break up a love triangle. But if it were my show, I'd totally have that happen. #5 isn't a bad one either, but I really don't see it happening. They really tried to hit the love between Robin and Marian home, so I don't think they'll split up unless Regina gets in the way.

 

Practically, I'd probably shoot for #2 or #4. 

 

Here is what I think the rough order of probability is, most likely to least:

4, 2, 3, 1, 5, 7, 8, 6

 

9. Regina kills Marian and makes it look like an accident.

Edited July 24, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[retrograde]

Robin is basically a plot device, so the only reason they would kill him is if they really do want Regina to go back to full dark!Regina. Which I am all for. But I doubt that is the goal. Unfortunately.

[ShadowFacts]

Whoa, KingofHearts, I never thought of that, that is dark and it would have surprised at least one viewer.  Really rough on little Roland, though.  Of course any way they get rid of Marian will be rough on the little guy.

[ParadoxLost]

So I'm going with Outlaw Queen is a case of mistaken identities.  Robin is a plot devise for Regina to backslide and revert to doing bad things and start seeking revenge against the Charmings, primarily Emma.  I'm expecting the "if I can't have my love, then neither can you variety" that will cause Captain Swan angst.  Because its inconceivable that Robin will dump Marian for the love of a woman who was going to execute her.

 

Then just as Regina is about to go nuclear, Richard the Lionheart arrives on the scene and it turns out all of Richard's supporters have the lion tattoo as does their King.  Then they launch into the push and pull relationship between an Evil Queen and a Good King.  I dub them Lion Queen.

 

If they are smart, they'll reveal via fairyback that Regina imprisoned Marian because she was plotting something with Prince John and doing him a favor rather than something Snow related.

 

Probably unlikely for the simple reason that its too many rulers in Storybrooke.  But I think it makes more sense than Robin Hood as Regina's true love especially now that Marian is on the scene.

 

In any scenario I can think of that Robin chooses Regina, Marian has to be an imposter of some sort which is way too much coincidence to believe with time travel involved.

Edited July 25, 2014 by ParadoxLost

[Camera One]

Then just as Regina is about to go nuclear, Richard the Lionheart arrives on the scene and it turns out all of Richard's supporters have the lion tattoo as does their King.

 

I thought about that too, though one would think Robin would mention that there are lots of men with that tattoo when Regina told him about the Tinkerbelle story.

 

I think the Marion as Imposter plot is the easiest "out" for the writers, to avoid having a prolonged grieving period (which would need to happen for Robin if she died) and it would vindicate Regina in the end, making her right all along that people shouldn't trust Marion.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

I've been wondering if all of the upset about the Marian thing is because it breaks up Outlaw Queen or if it's because Regina isn't getting what she wants. I mean are people invested in Robin/Regina or just Regina/Any Guy? There was someone lamenting on Tumblr about the lack of Outlaw Queen fan fic and fan art and I think that pretty much says it all. No one really understands Outlaw Queen, but people are invested in Regina so if the show makes her happy with Robin then she damn well better have Robin. That leads me to believe that they could kill Robin or have him ride off with Marian, so long as Regina is given another toy to play with.

 

The shame of it all is that they did have the out about Robin maybe not being the guy in the tavern with the tattoo, but then Adam went and said in an interview that we all saw who was in the tavern with the tattoo and it was definitely Robin. Playing with the idea that Regina was mistaken about tattoo guy would be a really interesting direction to take the story and would go towards this show's attempt to subvert the typical love story.

[Camera One]

Another twist could be Tinkerbelle realizing it wasn't fairy dust she had, since Blue had replaced the fairy dust with magic powdered sugar in the vial, designed to automatically find the closest bag of flour to bake a cake.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Camera One

[ParadoxLost]

I've been wondering if all of the upset about the Marian thing is because it breaks up Outlaw Queen or if it's because Regina isn't getting what she wants. I mean are people invested in Robin/Regina or just Regina/Any Guy? There was someone lamenting on Tumblr about the lack of Outlaw Queen fan fic and fan art and I think that pretty much says it all. No one really understands Outlaw Queen, but people are invested in Regina so if the show makes her happy with Robin then she damn well better have Robin. That leads me to believe that they could kill Robin or have him ride off with Marian, so long as Regina is given another toy to play with.

 

The shame of it all is that they did have the out about Robin maybe not being the guy in the tavern with the tattoo, but then Adam went and said in an interview that we all saw who was in the tavern with the tattoo and it was definitely Robin. Playing with the idea that Regina was mistaken about tattoo guy would be a really interesting direction to take the story and would go towards this show's attempt to subvert the typical love story.

 

Maybe Richard was in the bathroom.

[KingOfHearts]

 

In any scenario I can think of that Robin chooses Regina, Marian has to be an imposter of some sort which is way too much coincidence to believe with time travel involved.

 

It seems cheap for Marian to have some kind of twist like that, but so was the time travel in the first place. When you look at it: dead wife time travels to future, then instant happy family reunion. It's just so fishy and manufactured... much like Outlaw Queen itself. 

I personally don't think they'll be doing a twist on the lion tattoo. If you watch the tavern scene, you can visibly see that it's Robin at the tavern if you look quick enough. But I wish Regina would find someone else - she could do so much better than her flaky soulmate she's got now. It's my gathering that OQ shippers are more sold on Regina just having someone than the actual pairing itself.

Edited July 25, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[myril]

I was just thinking again about the fake dagger - and I wish it would come back to haunt Rumple. What if Belle is under attack and she would use it in dire need to "call" for his help? But of course, the fake dagger can't get Rumple quick to her. Like Bell and Henry are doing inventory in the shop and Elsa attacks coming for Rumple (or Mitchell's character instead of Elsa)... One can dream.

[KingOfHearts]

S4 is either going to be really good or the biggest jump-the-shark season of the show yet. My concern stems from the fact we're doing the cartoonish cash cow Frozen, which means they're desperate for ratings, and the fact almost the entire cast already experienced their happy endings in S3. There really doesn't seem to be anywhere else to go besides a CaptainSwan wedding some day.

 

- Rumpbelle is now married. Their romantic arc has peaked.

- Neal died and was avenged, so Rumple's arc with his son is finished.

- Regina got "redeemed", and she got to TLK plus use light magic.

- Regina got super duper romance.

- Emma and Henry got to live in New York happily.

- Emma chose Storybrooke as her home, thus concluding an arc that's been there since day one.

- Snow and Charming are together and have a baby.

 

How can these people get to be any happier? If they've already experienced their happy endings, where else is there to go? Sure they threw in a few gums into the works at the end (Marian, Elsa), but we still got to see them get their happy endings. Is there really anything else to do that isn't pulled straight out of a hat?

 

What I really wish they would do is something catastrophic that would rock the boat in a major way, in a way not unalike Going Home's ending. I'm talking long term effects. I don't believe Frozen is capable of doing that. These characters need new places to go, and with these little half-seasons with disposable villains, the writers don't seem to have the guts to do anything worth while.

Edited July 27, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

That's a major problem... they've reached all the major milestones of the story at breakneck speed.  And when when they were successful at sort of resetting the whole thing (eg. "Going Home"), they haven't used it.  Snow and Charming's story has reached their endpoints and that's why they are after-thoughts.  As you said, Emma pretty much only has the Captain Swan wedding left (so now that character is reduced to happiness = man).  Regina got everything she wanted and more, so the only place to go is back down, unless all that's left for her is an Outlaw Queen wedding.

 

So what is there to look forward to in the final season?  Only Rumple's final redemption and/or sacrifice.  And Regina's final redemption and/or sacrifice.

 

I really think these writers will go for a "Lost" style final season, which can be used as a time filler in a sense.  Lost spoiler: 

They will retwist and reshow the stories we saw in Season 1 into alternate reality flashbacks for everyone lasting a season. But then again, they already did this in the Season 3 finale, so even that has been done before.

[RadioGirl27]

That's a major problem... they've reached all the major milestones of the story at breakneck speed.

While I agree with you, I think there are stories left to tell. I mean, Regina and Rumple are really far away from being redeemed (not that I want them to be redeemed, but the writers do want it). And Emma and Hook aren't even in a relationship yet, so they can drag it out as long as they want (again, it's not what I want or what I would do, but they can do it if they want).

[Camera One]

Yes, I agree there are still worthwhile stories, but the potential for some of that have been shot.  Rumple is definitely far from being redeemed, but I would much rather have seen how his son would have affected that process rather than focus just on his romance with Belle, which is severely limiting for motivating his eventual redemption.  As for Regina, they've restricted what stories they can tell from now on, since they've already gotten Henry to remember her, and Regina learned to do white magic, broke the Curse, found her soulmate and won him over.  What else is left? Becoming the benevolent Supreme Ruler of All The Realms?

Edited July 27, 2014 by Camera One

[stealinghome]

@Camera One, don't give them any ideas!!!

[Mari]

Regina learned to do white magic, broke the Curse, found her soulmate and won him over.  What else is left? Becoming the benevolent Supreme Ruler of All The Realms?

You mean she's not, already?  After all, her wrath is a just wrath. 

[tennisgurl]

I think you might have discovered this seasons new plot! Regina and company travel the multiverse, building an empire to be ruled by benevolent dictator Saint Regina of Woobiedom. And all will happily join the cult of Regina. Resistance is futile!

[KingOfHearts]

I'm over-analyzing the flip out of this show, but...

I was wondering today how far can you change and adapt the characters before they become unrecognizable as their Disney selves. Since a lot of viewers only watch because of the Disney appeal, the writers aren't really "allowed" to change these iconic characters too much.

Take Regina, for example. She's popular for being the Evil Queen, so redeeming her isn't a logical move from a marketing perspective at all. If she goes good, she's not recognizable as the embodiment of Disney villains any more.

There's also Snow. She's relentlessly nice, like her counterpart, but it also ruins her character because she doesn't hold the strong confidence we've come to expect from Bandit Snow. As Henry put it, "But she's Snow White. She'd never hurt anybody." She'll put everyone in jeopardy in order to keep her Disney goodness. (See: Cora Guilt or Regina's No-Go Execution)

And that brings me to Frozen worries. It's going to be verbatim with the movie. The characters have the same costume designs, looks and personalities. When you put in pure cartoons, it's going to get cartoony. You can throw Once's maturity out the window.

The character writing seems to be heavily restrained to what Disney characters it's based on, and that's bad news for later seasons. It means they have to remain pretty static.

I wish the show was way riskier than it is, but it has to play it safe even more so with all the families tuning into to see Frozen 2 on TV.

Edited July 30, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Technically, they've already ruined Snow White when they made her character have a one night stand in S1.  Since they were permitted to do that (not to mention making Peter Pan a creepy villain, killing off Cinderella's fairy godmother, etc.), I think Disney is pretty much giving them relatively free rein.  

 

I think Disney accepts that this show adapts some Disney characters, but they are considered a separate entity from the animated counterpart.  Disney themselves is twisting Maleficient and giving her a backstory, and they also have had straight-to-video features where the villains are treated as sort of a joke, so it won't affect marketing.

 

The only reason "Frozen" might be an exception is the recent nature of it, and the possibility that Disney might do a spinoff.  They can't do with Elsa or Anna what they did with Snow White.  But while they won't mess with them *as* much, I don't think Adam and Eddy will do a verbatim of the movie, if only because each flashback only lasts a few minutes, and they would only be able to replay a few "highlights" from the movie, if even that.  Knowing them, I do think they will do a bit of a twist.  I don't think "Once" is actually marketed to little girls who are fans of "Frozen".  This will appeal to the parents and older family members who have been subjected to "Frozen" probably ad nauseum since it came out.  A lot of this arc I expect to be the writers trying to be clever (they're probably putting more thought into who should say "Let it go" and in what context to what how Charming, Snow and Emma will bond or not bond).  Granted, I'm sure their "twist" on the tale will be as lame-o as the twist on Oz, but I don't really fear too much restraint.  Even if they keep it safe, there's still a lot of interesting plays they can get with minor changes like having Snow and Charming meeting Anna and Kristoff in the past, or having Rumple visit Elsa's parents or whatever or even just having Elsa and Emma discussing control of their powers, or Elsa and Regina chatting how you can hurt your family without really trying.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

The only reason "Frozen" might be an exception is the recent nature of it, and the possibility that Disney might do a spinoff.

They're also "original" characters, unlike Snow White, Cinderella, et al who came from folklore, where there are tons of versions and retellings. They exist outside Disney, even though they're using a lot of the imagery from Disney in this show. A lot of the audience has probably seen or read other versions of the Snow White story and seen different depictions of that character, even if it's just in spoofs like the Shrek movies. You're not going to find Elsa and the Frozen gang anywhere else. Until now, they existed only in that one movie.

[KingOfHearts]

I was mostly referring to Post-S1 Snow.

Camera One, you're more optimistic about Frozen than I am.

The twist is probably going to be that Elsa's mom is alive, but no better than that. They've made it pretty clear it's going to play out pretty much the same as the movie.

Besides Frozen, I don't think the tight leash comes from Disney. It's from the writers being too afraid to go to town with character growth and change.

Edited July 30, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[KingOfHearts]

Frozen sounds like the jump-the-shark season of the show. Here's the kind of scenarios running through my mind:

* Writers fail at Frozen, upsetting a huge amount of potential fans

* Frozen removes almost all focus from main cast, thus the show begins to fall apart

* Frozen is so popular that it sets in motion a cartoonish trend to gain viewership.

* Frozen is a hit, but the new viewers stop watching after the focus goes back to the main cast and 4B begins.

* Show loses it's original viewers because of its focus on new characters they're not interested in.

* Frozen makes a lot of money for Disney, but the writers fail to top it after it's over.

Going Home seems like the show's true series finale at the moment. The only thing better would be everyone moving to EF, with henry and Emma in tow. There's really little else to do.

Edited July 31, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mitch]

Realm jumping..stupid and boring and I am one of those viewers who hates the CGI.  Leave them in Storybrooke stuck to work out their problems.  They have a whole town of people from different worlds that Regina pissed off or who she is pissed off at, so lets just explore the different realms through the new characters flashbacks. The jumping all over makes Rumpel look like an absolute idiot for spending hundreds of years on the curse.

 

A big yes to Robing being bland. But the actor wasnt helped out by what the writers chose to focus on. I thought we would have a fresh take last season on the flashbacks going back to the lost year, so we could see the Storybrook relationships clearly mirrored in the recent past. So I thought we would see Robin and Regina getting cozy in the EF just as they cozied up in Storybrook but we didnt get a lot of that..they didnt even really get together in the EF, and that was a big mistake. At least then they would have had a least 6 months of realtionship and that would explain why Regina would be devasted by the return of Marion. Right now its like Marion came and claimed Regina's latest hook up and Regina should be like, "Uh, okay."  It too hope that Robin fades away like the other 80 characters they made a big deal about who disappeared. Then Regina can find someone right for her, like Count Dracula or the Gnome King or somebody cool.  Is still think that Regina's true love should be from the "real" world so that it explains why he wouldnt be averse to jumping the Evil Queen.

[KingOfHearts]

This show needs more Real World interaction. I'd like to see more of that outside of just Hook, Emma and Henry. I want to see some of the characters who have never been out of EF/Storybrooke to see where Emma is from.

The show creators don't do worldbuilding or fantasy well, so the fact they're focusing on things like Frozen is a little scary. Sometimes the show needs to be brought back down to earth to keep it relatable with the audience. That's one reason why S1 was more captivating.

The fact we're in "fantasy mode" all the time now makes the fantasy less special or desirable.

[KingOfHearts]

I was watching Kansas, and the scene with Archie and Henry gave me a little insight on some of the logistics regarding Emma and Henry in S4. He's looking at the classifieds in the newspaper for houses available:

 

Henry: "Mary Margaret's place will be crowded after the baby, and I'll be going back and forth at Regina's, and Emma can't sleep in her car."

So, Henry is going to have sleepovers at Regina's, but live with Emma in a new house? That's going to be interesting. We also have our hooked friend to consider.

Edited August 5, 2014 by KingOfHearts