Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers: Lalalalala! I can't hear you!

[Shanna Marie]

Just think what could be done with Baba Yaga. Just the visuals of the hut on chicken legs could be brilliant, though I wonder how that might be conveyed in Storybrooke. A trailer house?

[Camera One]

There's also Bluebeard.  I wish A&E were more into folktales and actual research into fairy tales and general worldbuilding.  Since Baba Yaga, or the ones FLutterby mentioned would be great.  

[KingOfHearts]

I'm pretty sure A&E will stick to either Disney characters or major western world icons. (Example: They would do Hercules or Megara, but not Athena or Juniper.) Unfortunately, many of the Grimms stories are little known. :(

[Camera One]

Oh yeah, I forgot about Hercules.  Even though it wasn't a huge animated hit, it's still very well known and they could draw from Greek Myths, sort of like their mash-up of "Frozen" and the Original Snow Queen story.  I can see them doing Hades in the final season, to give us a chance to see some of the dear departed characters again.

[retrograde]

Yeah. My point was that TPTB clearly think big-name franchises are the way to go. And in fairness, while I can't say definitively that they draw in audiences, they definitely do generate more publicity. I don't see TV Guide doing a Three Billy Goats Gruff cover story anytime soon.

 

I do think all the Arthurian stuff is potentially still on the table -- especially, perhaps, if Galavant proves popular.

[Camera One]

Good point about Galavant.  Depending on what big movies are coming out, various stories could generate publicity and drum up interest in a world.  The Greek myths for example are still popular with the Clash of the Titans series.  The Angelina Jolie movie created renewed interest in Maleficient, so I was wondering if they would do that in 4B or 5A.  

[retrograde]

Looking at next year's film lineup, the main fairytale/Disney ones seem to be live action versions of Peter Pan, Cinderella, and The Jungle Book. So I guess the third would be the most promising, though I can't imagine what they would do with those characters. 

[Camera One]

I actually thought they would do the Jungle Book with Graham, but that went out of the Window of the Lonely Hunter.  Cinderella's stepmother was seen briefly in the Wonderland spinoff, but she didn't even warrant a line in "The Price of Gold". I can't see her as being a Megavillain, though the Cate Blanchett performance seems to be right up A&E's alley, but that shipped has sailed now.  

 

This show is so campy at this point I almost want to see a life-sized Mickey Mouse appear in Storybrooke to knock Rumplestiltskin out with a club.

[retrograde]

Looking at next year's film lineup, the main fairytale/Disney ones seem to be live action versions of Peter Pan, Cinderella, and The Jungle Book. So I guess the third would be the most promising, though I can't imagine what they would do with those characters. 

Actually, I take that back, I can think of a great way to do The Jungle Book: Henry is abandoned in the jungle. That would be the whole storyline. 

[Shanna Marie]

There's also Bluebeard.

They'd just give him a present-day love interest to whom the room full of the corpses of his previous wives makes no difference to her great love for him. They probably had it coming, and he's different now.

[RadioGirl27]

They'd just give him a present-day love interest to whom the room full of the corpses of his previous wives makes no difference to her great love for him. They probably had it coming, and he's different now.

He would be perfect for Regina. It wouldn't be that far away from the crypt of love.

[Shanna Marie]

He would be perfect for Regina. It wouldn't be that far away from the crypt of love.

OMG! I'm, like, totally shipping that! :-)

[InsertWordHere]

I'm guessing Hook goes to collect Henry for Rumple and runs into a a little trap set by Henry, hence why he's running afoul of marbles in the mayor's office in the 3.10 promo.

[OnceUponAJen]

Well Henry was thinking ahead.....boobytrapping the door!

[Mari]

So, next week we're supposed to get the writers' ideas about what everyone's worst self is.

 

Is it wrong that I think we've been experiencing Snow's worst self for at least 2 1/4 seasons. 

 

And that I'm preemptively mad at the writers because Snow's "worst self" is apparently standing up to Regina?  Like standing up to Regina is a terrible thing? 

[scarynikki12]

I wonder if Regina will kill Marian next week? She's held herself back so far but the spell should make her more possessive of Robin and I can see her crushing the heart like with Graham. If I were writing the show this would lead to Emma learning how he really died but I won't hold my breath.

Or maybe this will be a way to get Robin to kill her and not get in trouble.

[Rumsy4]

I wonder if Regina will kill Marian next week? She's held herself back so far but the spell should make her more possessive of Robin and I can see her crushing the heart like with Graham. If I were writing the show this would lead to Emma learning how he really died but I won't hold my breath.

Or maybe this will be a way to get Robin to kill her and not get in trouble.

 

I would love it if the Show decides to make Robin full on evil and kill Marian while under the Spell! :-p Regina crushing Marian's heart and "finishing the job" she started in the EF would work equally well, but I don't think it will happen. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

 

I wonder if Regina will kill Marian next week? She's held herself back so far but the spell should make her more possessive of Robin and I can see her crushing the heart like with Graham. If I were writing the show this would lead to Emma learning how he really died but I won't hold my breath.

Or maybe this will be a way to get Robin to kill her and not get in trouble.

If no one but Ingrid dies next week, I'll be disappointed. If Regina kills Robin, then there will be some partying going on. If Robin or Regina kill Marian, I'll be glad the showrunners finally made a gutsy move. (Even if its for their Regina agenda... sigh.)

 

Someone in the Triangle of Doom just needs to die. Period.

Edited December 1, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

If no one but Ingrid dies next week, I'll be disappointed. If Regina kills Robin, then there will be some partying going on. If Robin or Regina kill Marian, I'll be glad the showrunners finally made a gutsy move. (Even if its for their Regina agenda... sigh.)

 

Someone in the Triangle of Doom just needs to die. Period.

Yes.  And doing it under the "worst self ever" curse is one of the few ways they could do it without having serious rebound on Regina and Robin.  (Because we all know it won't be Robin.  He might get sent off somewhere or spend a great deal of time hunting, so he's not in every episode, but there's no way the writers will allow Regina to be deprived of her soulmate.)

[scenicbyway]

I wonder if Regina will actually take Robin's heart?

 

I would think Regina would go after:

 

1.  Snow

2.  Emma

3. Mariancicle

4. Everyone else but Henry.

 

Of course Regina will never actually go after DQ, who's causing all the trouble right now.

[KAOS Agent]

Marian unfreezes, remembers everything from her frozen time and kills Robin. That's my ultimate fantasy. 

[ParadoxLost]

DQ's new spell somehow defrosted Arendale thirty years later.  Does that mean Marian is also unfrozen?

[InsertWordHere]

So what's in the bottle and did whoever sent it know it would get wished into our world?

[ParadoxLost]

So what's in the bottle and did whoever sent it know it would get wished into our world?

 

I think its the message Elsa's mother wrote when their ship was sinking earlier this season.

[Souris]

I think its the message Elsa's mother wrote when their ship was sinking earlier this season.

 

Yes, we saw the barnacle-encrusted bottle on the sea floor (Poseidon's Boneyard!) near the remains of their ship when Kristanna were dumped in.

[Alex]

They keep calling it the Spell of Shattered Sight, so maybe the writers are making it not-a-curse so it can't be broken with a TLK.

 

Good point.

I don't have any other spell coming to my mind right now, can anyone of you help me here?

 

I had a thought: given the parallels between the Charmings and Captain Swan: will they parallel the heart sharing too?

Edited December 1, 2014 by Alex

[KingOfHearts]

 

I think its the message Elsa's mother wrote when their ship was sinking earlier this season.

"Do not open a urn with runes on it - I repeat - do not open a urn with runes on it. You have a crazy aunt in there who accidentally killed my sister with the same powers Elsa has so I locked her up because she's a monster. Love you two, have a nice life. PS - if you're pure of heart, check out my old wedding cabinet."

[Camera One]

or...

 

"This is a message for Regina.  I repeat, this is a message for Regina, not for Elsa or Anna.  Regina, don't give up on love!  We enjoyed our visit in Misthaven and we wanted to give you a final pep talk so you can find great happiness.  An old sage told us to let you know that the Author you seek will be found in the midst of the Light and the Dark.  Let thus drag out for half a season."

[YaddaYadda]

So given that the message in the bottle that Elsa's mother wrote has made a comeback and I'm assuming it will be found between now and the end of 411, it sort of gave me a smidgen of hope that the message Hook left might be heard.

[Curio]

So given that the message in the bottle that Elsa's mother wrote has made a comeback and I'm assuming it will be found between now and the end of 411, it sort of gave me a smidgen of hope that the message Hook left might be heard.

 

I'm holding out hope, too. For how awful the continuity on this show is, I've actually been pleasantly surprised at some of the things they've called back to this season. They brought back the snowflake star necklace (even though it was a bit contrived that they just discovered the wishing star plot this past episode), they brought Blackbeard and the Jolly Roger back, they brought back the bottled message, and based on the promo for the next episode, it looks like

Will hasn't forgotten that Hook beat him up

.

 

If Belle somehow discovers Emma's phone while she's locked away in the pawn shop, I would forgive the writers for a lot of the missteps this season. (Quid pro quo, show: If Hook's voice message is heard, I'll forgive you for the crypt sex... Okay, no. No, I can't ever forgive that.)

 

What would be the icing on the continuity cake is if they had Will recognize Hook's heartless behavior and warn Emma about it. I feel like Will has been really underutilized this season, so it'd be a nice way for his character to make a big difference to the plot/mystery by calling Hook out on something he knows about firsthand from the Wonderland series.

[Mari]

So, if we're getting everyone's worst self--or the writers' ideas about that--does that mean a return to wimpy, gives up, negative Nelly, 80s hair David?  Or is he going to be more Jamesish?

[YaddaYadda]

Or is he going to be more Jamesish?

 

Please let it be this!  David can stand to be a little bit bad, it never hurt anyone and I'll eat it up with a spoon.

[Shanna Marie]

David going into James mode would also fix the incongruity of "evil isn't born, it's made -- except James, who was totally evil from birth, it had nothing to do with being raised by George, and David would still have turned out good if he'd been the one raised by George."

[scenicbyway]

What was the whole point of Henry working in Gold's shop?  He's hardly been shown with Gold anyway.  He swept the floor twice very badly and wore a suit in one episode?  Why not just send Henry to school with the rest of the kids and call it a day? 

[Dani-Ellie]

Because Operation Mongoose. *rolls eyes*

[retrograde]

What was the whole point of Henry working in Gold's shop? He's hardly been shown with Gold anyway. He swept the floor twice very badly and wore a suit in one episode? Why not just send Henry to school with the rest of the kids and call it a day?

I've been wondering the same thing. The only way this storyline can continue and actually come to something is if no one finds out about Rumple's evil deeds by the end of 4a, and that seems unlikely.

[Shanna Marie]

I would have said that maybe Henry would be the one to find Emma's phone in Gold's shop, and that's how she'd get Hook's desperate message, but I'm not sure how that can happen while Henry's locked in the mayor's office. So, yeah, hard to see how that plot line matters at all. I can't imagine how anyone would let Henry go anywhere near Rumple after all this.

 

Then again, it's this show, and "he's family." The Regina lobotomy may start working for Rumple, too. They'll be begging him to come to family dinners.

[Rumsy4]

Going back to Rumple/Ingrid, it was unclear whether she had agreed to protect Belle and Henry from the effects of the Spell or not. Wouldn't Belle or Henry suspect something if neither one was affected by the Spell? I do think Belle's going to find either the fake Dagger or Emma's phone in the Shop. If Belle was unaffected by the Spell, will she even suspect Rumple of wrongdoing?

[Mari]

Wouldn't Belle or Henry suspect something if neither one was affected by the Spell? I do think Belle's going to find either the fake Dagger or Emma's phone in the Shop. If Belle was unaffected by the Spell, will she even suspect Rumple of wrongdoing?

I'm not sure if they're immune or not--I'd sort of assumed so.  But, that doesn't necessarily mean much when it  comes to Belle.  She could just assume he found a way to protect her--or that by sealing her in, he sealed everything out, or that by doubting him she was being her worst self, since that's what the mirror Belle did.

 

(Of course, until I see Belle actually saying a variation of "Rumple was wrong." I'm going to just assume the standard Good Heart glasses are firmly attached.)

[KingOfHearts]

I don't think Belle is immune... I just think Ingrid is going to let her, Henry and Rumple through the ice wall.

 

 

I wonder if the shattered glass spell affects them once they leave?

The Shattered Sight spell was only temporary with Anna, but since this one is stronger it might not be. Actually, now that I think about it, it probably wouldn't affect them because of the lack of magic.

Edited December 5, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I wonder if the shattered glass spell affects them once they leave?  Technically, Rumple can just completely erase and alter their entire memories.  He could revert Belle to the end of S2 after her reunion with Rumple, and he could completely rework Henry's memory to make it so he adopted Henry and raised him since birth.  Of course, all this is a moot point since they'll all be back in Storybrooke when all is said and done.

[Curio]

We were discussing in the spoilers thread (don't worry, no actual spoilers here) what might be the actual outcome for the whole Rumple vs. Hook plot, and it's interesting trying to figure out what the writers will end up doing. It seems to me that there are five different scenarios that could happen: 1) Rumple succeeds and uses Hook's heart to fulfill his plan and Hook officially dies; goodbye Colin O'Donoghue. 2) Rumple succeeds in killing Hook, but Emma somehow revives Hook with some combination of Savior Magic/True Love. 3) Rumple almost succeeds in using Hook's heart, but his plans are thwarted at the last second by Emma (or someone else possibly) and Hook is only at the brink of death. 4) Rumple comes no where close to killing Hook and his heart is easily returned to him. 5) Belle finds finds out about the dagger and Rumple gets in trouble for that, but he forgets to tell anyone about Hook's missing heart and Hook goes heartless the rest of the series. (Okay, that last one is probably not too likely.)
 
Personally, I think the most dramatic and impactful scenario would be if Hook actually died because of all of this (preferably only temporarily). I feel like there has been too many hints about Hook's death throughout the entire season that it'd seem like a cop-out if the writers didn't pull that trigger. Also, it would be nice for a villain to actually pull off an evil plan that actually had a serious repercussion to it. Hook going to the brink of death is scary, but not quite as scary as actually dying. 
 

If it means breaking the dead is dead rule again, then no thank you. I don't mind him almost dying and Emma reviving him, but if he fully dies and gets resurrected, I'll be throwing my hands in the air in irritation.

 
Ironically, the "dead is dead" rule is the easiest of the "Major Three No-No's" to break on this show:
 

I'm not too worried about the "dead is dead" rule because I figure there are always degrees and loopholes -- the manner of death, the amount of time, etc. David dead for a minute or so before Snow gave him a new heart works, but Daniel being dead for decades doesn't. Hook could be Mostly Dead and saved, or there could be a loophole because his heart isn't in his body (like seems to be working with Marian), where he can get himself killed trying to stop Rumple, but then saved if those injuries are magically healed and his heart is put back in. "Dead is dead" may mean that you can't just wave your magic wand and bring someone back to life, but within certain limitations you may be able to take steps to fix the things that caused the death. The sleeping curse looks like death if you don't know that's what's going on, and it can be broken. And then there's that whole thing about fate and someone being killed when it wasn't supposed to be their time, so it can be undone.

There has also been Blue miraculously coming back to life, Cyrus's mom (temporarily) coming back to life in Wonderland, Jafar raising an entire army of undead people in Wonderland, Anastasia being revived from the dead in Wonderland, Maleficent coming back to life after being killed as a dragon, Blackbeard seemingly dying and coming back into play, Henry basically died at the end of Season 1, Rumple was resurrected, and even though Neal didn't die the first time...the writers made it seem like he came back from the dead because everyone was convinced he was dead in Neverland.

 

So, ironically, when compared to "you can't make someone fall in love with you" and "you can't change the past," bringing someone back from the dead is actually pretty easy to get around on this show. (Sorry, Daniel.)

[ABitOFluff]

Personally, I think the most dramatic and impactful scenario would be if Hook actually died because of all of this (preferably only temporarily). I feel like there has been too many hints about Hook's death throughout the entire season that it'd seem like a cop-out if the writers didn't pull that trigger. Also, it would be nice for a villain to actually pull off an evil plan that actually had a serious repercussion to it. Hook going to the brink of death is scary, but not quite as scary as actually dying. 

I agree Hook dying would be the most impactful, but this outcome would make me feel really cheated, rather than feel like "Oh, wow, that was great storytelling". OK, Hook is my favorite character, so I'm biased, but overall the show has made me care too much about his story to cut it short like that. He's still on his way up the redemption arc, and it would be have to be a HUGE sacrifice on Hook's part for him to die and be fully redeemed in one go. The Shattered Sight spell is not Rumplestiltskin's spell, and that is the spell that is threatening the whole town. For Killian to lose his life during it would make him nothing but cannon fodder for whatever happens in 4B.

 

I have to give it the writers on this one, but I really can't figure out how they're going to handle his fate. I hope it's involves a sacrifice that firmly establishes his place on Team Good Guy, but not something that breaks all the rules of "dead is dead" except when it's not. I want it to be more like Hook has done everything he can to keep the town from destroying itself and still managing to stay alive for Emma's sake. And yes, I'd while I'd love Emma to storm into Gold's shop and take Killian's heart back by force, I sort of want Hook to find a way to defeat Rumple himself. He's a smart guy, and there are always loopholes. For him to find a loophole at the last moment that would save himself and the town would be the best scenario for me.

[snarkastic]

I'm guessing Hook goes to collect Henry for Rumple and runs into a a little trap set by Henry, hence why he's running afoul of marbles in the mayor's office in the 3.10 promo.

 

All I want from ShatteredSight!Henry is to tell Hook things like, "You can't replace my dad." and "You just take me sailing to get in good with my mom. You don't care about ME." and "Why do you still insist on wearing the same thing everyday now that you're out of the pirate getup?" You know, things that Henry might actually be feeling deep down, but wouldn't say without being under the spell. (Because that's what the spell is supposed to be, right?) I just don't want Evil!Henry playing tricks on people with marbles for kicks. Or, the complete opposite, Henry, being the truest believer, is not remotely affected by the spell because he is the goodest of goody goods, and the marbles were really just a precaution to stay safe.

[Shanna Marie]

So, ironically, when compared to "you can't make someone fall in love with you" and "you can't change the past," bringing someone back from the dead is actually pretty easy to get around on this show. (Sorry, Daniel.)

Maybe Daniel could have been saved if Regina had known how to rip hearts then and had thought to share hers. But David would have been screwed if Snow hadn't had the bright idea to share her heart until after they were in Storybrooke and the memory spell had broken. I figured that one was like a magical defibrillator -- if the EMTs show up within a minute or so after someone's heart stops beating, they may be able to save them. If they show up days later, nothing they do will help. Dead on an operating table with lots of equipment and medical professionals around is different from dead alone in the middle of nowhere, and all of that depends on the cause of death, so maybe it works the same way with magic. Not all deaths can be undone, but under the right circumstances, some deaths can be "cured."

 

I do figure there's been way too much foreshadowing for Hook not to seem to die in some way. I keep coming back to maybe his heart being out as the key, since they set that up with Marian, saving her life from the curse by taking her heart out. Can someone be truly dead while their heart is out of their body and still beating? I suppose it depends on whether their body could still support a beating heart or if the heart would just fail soon after being put back, so it depends on how long they've been dead and what they died of. Undo a curse, and they might be able to live once the heart is back, like they're trying to do with Marian. It might work the same way with mortal wounds. They could even use a mix of magic and medical technology -- magically heal the wounds, put the heart back, and then use medicine to stabilize him and recover from the shock. If that sort of thing happens, it would mean Rumple possibly creating his own downfall -- if he'd used Hook's heart right away, he could have freed himself from the dagger, but by keeping Hook around to torment him as his puppet, he creates the opportunity for something to go wrong. Maybe Hook finds a loophole in his orders that allows him to thwart Rumple somehow so the spell doesn't get cast, and he dies in the process. Or his could be the Act of True Love that breaks the Shattered Sight curse.

[InsertWordHere]

So Henry is going to tell Emma that Hook tried to retrieve him, right?

[Mari]

If he can tear himself away from Regina and Operation Mongoose.

[KingOfHearts]

This show is getting so predictable. They're not even really trying to do "twists" any more. Shattered Sight was so anticlimactic and fruitless that I feel like it was almost a waste of an episode. The only parts that really mattered were the Ingrid flashbacks, but then she died, so those didn't even truly mean anything. Emma's no different with Ingrid in her past from without. This formula of killing the villains at the end of every arc (Pan, Zelena, Ingrid) is already getting old to me. I understand it's fairy tales and comeuppances happen, but defeat shouldn't always mean death.

 

With Cruella, Ursula and Maleficent coming on board, we seem to be heading into another arc where the villains are just waiting to die. Could we get a different threat besides fashionable magical beings flaunting spells and horsejabber everywhere? It's a bit two-dimensional for a three-dimensional show.

Edited December 8, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[retrograde]

For a self-professed "survivor", Hook has been remarkably passive these past few episodes. I do hope he at least attempts to save his own arse in the finale. 

[daxx]

For a self-professed "survivor", Hook has been remarkably passive these past few episodes. I do hope he at least attempts to save his own arse in the finale.

I expect missing his heart affects his survivor skills. Knowing you are a dead man walking doesn't help either.