The NBA

[AimingforYoko]

There will be two versions of The Last Dance, bleeped (ESPN2) and unbleeped(ESPN).

[geauxaway]

On 4/17/2020 at 11:32 AM, AimingforYoko said:

There will be two versions of The Last Dance, bleeped (ESPN2) and unbleeped(ESPN).

I made sure to record the non bleep version!  I’m so excited for this.  I was in my NBA hey day when all this went down.  I seen MJ play in person a few times as a kid. NBA JAMS was my jam.  Skipping school to go to Aladdins Castle to play I’m on 🔥🔥🔥🔥 yall

[xaxat]

I was skeptical, but after an hour, I am all on board with The Last Dance. The footage is amazing and the way they are telling the story is great.

"Barack Obama - Former Chicago resident." 

"Bill Clinton - Former governor of Arkansas." 

😂

Edited April 20, 2020 by xaxat

[Growsonwalls]

One thing that struck me: MJ's looking a little rough. "I didn't drink at the time" he says while clutching a whiskey and with bloodshot eyes. I often am amazed at how good and fit athletes look years after retirement. But Jordan looks rough. The footage of him when he was playing shows how much he's aged. James Worthy and Scottie Pippen look younger than him nowadays. 

ETA: is he really 6'6"? For whatever reason he looks much shorter.

Edited April 21, 2020 by Growsonwalls

[DoctorAtomic]

I'm finding the documentary mildly interesting. I was in college at the time of run, so I didn't watch a ton of sports, but I was obviously aware and I'm fairly sure I watched most of the Finals back then. I can't say I was ever a Jordan fan, but you can't not respect that run.

I'm interested enough to keep watching.  I didn't know the drama about Phil maybe not coming back or stuff like that, but I'm not feeling this is a story that *needed* to be told. I'm hoping this 'unprecedented access' reveals some gems though. 

[AimingforYoko]

20 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I'm hoping this 'unprecedented access' reveals some gems though. 

I think they focus on Rodman this upcoming episode.

[Lamb18]

My secret conspiracy theory is that Dennis Rodman was behind Trump meeting with Kim Jong-un in Singapore two years ago.

[topanga]

On 4/21/2020 at 3:55 PM, Growsonwalls said:

One thing that struck me: MJ's looking a little rough. "I didn't drink at the time" he says while clutching a whiskey and with bloodshot eyes. I often am amazed at how good and fit athletes look years after retirement. But Jordan looks rough. The footage of him when he was playing shows how much he's aged. James Worthy and Scottie Pippen look younger than him nowadays. 

He's also an asshole. All of that negative energy ages you. And I wonder if he's still gambling.

[jah1986]

16 minutes ago, topanga said:

He's also an asshole. All of that negative energy ages you. And I wonder if he's still gambling.

I remember the Jordan era of basketball and was never a fan, just on principle as a lifelong Sixers fan.  I still am enjoying the series. But I always thought MJ was a jerk and that viewpoint hasn't changed. But I was kind of surprised by his current appearance, clearly he drinks a lot now.

[Growsonwalls]

25 minutes ago, jah1986 said:

I remember the Jordan era of basketball and was never a fan, just on principle as a lifelong Sixers fan.  I still am enjoying the series. But I always thought MJ was a jerk and that viewpoint hasn't changed. But I was kind of surprised by his current appearance, clearly he drinks a lot now.

Yeah, that was the shocking part. The puffy face and red eyes of someone who is always drinking too much. All his contemporaries (some of whom are actually older) now look younger, including his nemesis Isiah Thomas. 

[mojoween]

Damn I loved the Pistons so much.

I’m sure this doc is going to have an untold amount of gems for the next seven hours, but I don’t know if anything is going to top Ron Harper dismissively saying of the coaching decision to have Craig Ehlo guard Jordan instead of him “yeah ok, whatever, fuck this bullshit” complete with side-eye.

Edited April 27, 2020 by mojoween

[Growsonwalls]

1 hour ago, mojoween said:

Damn I loved the Pistons so much.

I’m sure this doc is going to have an untold amount of gems for the next seven hours, but I don’t know if anything is going to top Ron Harper dismissively saying of the coaching decision to have Craig Ehlo guard Jordan instead of him “yeah ok, whatever, fuck this bullshit” complete with side-eye.

Um ... did Isiah personally drown MJ's puppies or something? I'm shocked that MJ still hates him so much. I mean Magic and Isiah have mended fences and they had a much nastier personal falling out.

[DoctorAtomic]

Jordan strikes me as a bit burying the hatchet type. 

[Fukui San]

9 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Um ... did Isiah personally drown MJ's puppies or something? I'm shocked that MJ still hates him so much. I mean Magic and Isiah have mended fences and they had a much nastier personal falling out.

Jordan spent his Hall of Fame induction speech getting back at people who maybe said something critical about him decades ago.

[Growsonwalls]

1 hour ago, Fukui San said:

Jordan spent his Hall of Fame induction speech getting back at people who maybe said something critical about him decades ago.

True. I just rewatched his HOF induction. What a petty, bitter man.

I felt bad for Dennis Rodman. I think he's essentially a very shy, troubled man. He does a lot of things to grab attention but in his interviews I notice how awkward he is. Lots of uhs, ums, head always lowered. 

[xaxat]

Wow. Just. . wow.

Lakers got money from loan program, returned it

Quote

The Los Angeles Lakers have returned approximately $4.6 million that they received from a federal government program intended to help small businesses weather the economic burden caused by the coronavirus pandemic, the team said in a statement to ESPN on Monday.

Quote

The Lakers' value was estimated to be more than $4 billion prior to the virus outbreak. They have the league's most lucrative local broadcast deal, which generates more than $150 million in annual revenue. In addition to the Buss family, which presides as the controlling owners, the franchise has three billionaire minority partners -- Philip Anschutz, Patrick Soon-Shiong and Ed Roski Jr.

Who in management thought it was a good idea to apply for one of these loans? 

(And I wouldn't be surprised if other pro teams didn't try it.)

[NUguy514]

Jordan is the greatest, but he is also the angriest, most resentful person.  There is no joy to be had when you spend every waking moment obsessing over your own bitterness; I think that is the driving force behind why he looks so much older than he should.  It's really a shame that he's such a miserable man because I loved watching him play.

[Growsonwalls]

16 minutes ago, NUguy514 said:

Jordan is the greatest, but he is also the angriest, most resentful person.  There is no joy to be had when you spend every waking moment obsessing over your own bitterness; I think that is the driving force behind why he looks so much older than he should.  It's really a shame that he's such a miserable man because I loved watching him play.

I know. I grew up watching Jordan/Pippen/Rodman. To me MJ was the GOAT. I have fond memories of John Paxson and Horace Grant and Phil Jackson.

Ironically the "bad boys" of Detroit come across well in this documentary. They seemed to enjoy their experiences and I'd hang out with them. I think Scottie Pippen comes across well in this documentary too. He didn't have the psychotic drive of Jordan but he was such a good player, and I didn't realize he had so many relatives to take care of financially.

This documentary is supposed to be a Jordan tongue-bath but the protagonist (MJ) is his own worst advocate. He's bitter and petty, with those bloodshot eyes and dismissive expressions. He looks old and frankly, like he drinks too much. 

[DoctorAtomic]

1 hour ago, NUguy514 said:

Jordan is the greatest, but he is also the angriest, most resentful person.  There is no joy to be had when you spend every waking moment obsessing over your own bitterness; I think that is the driving force behind why he looks so much older than he should.  It's really a shame that he's such a miserable man because I loved watching him play.

I get really mad about things a lot, but I try to just vent and let it go. You just can't live with all that anger. It is going to catch up to you. 

Honestly if you're literally considered the best ever in the history of your profession and you can't get the fuck over yourself, you need to talk to someone. 

Edited April 27, 2020 by DoctorAtomic

[Growsonwalls]

Here's a good article about Toni Kukoc and his relationship with the famous Bulls team:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29072197/toni-kukoc-talks-michael-jordan-scottie-pippen-last-dance-chicago-bulls

Highlights:

- He was known as "Jerry Krause's guy" and still has fond memories for the not-so-beloved team owner

- He loves Scottie Pippen and said after a slow start he became very close to Pippen:

Quote

Kukoc took an immediate liking to Pippen. Beneath the "Jerry's boy" jabs, Kukoc heard perhaps the greatest perimeter defender ever trying to help him. If he missed an assignment in games, he found Pippen behind him to clean things up -- and instruct Kukoc so he would be better next time. Kukoc felt Pippen's support, he said.

"I love Scottie," Kukoc said. "The guy that helped me the most those first two years was Scottie. He is so easy to play with. I never really felt [the criticism] was mean. I felt like he was trying to point me in the right direction."

Pippen has campaigned for Kukoc to be inducted in the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame. It is something Kukoc wants, and feels he deserves.

- He says Dennis Rodman was very shy and withdrawn:

Quote

On some nights, Rodman would approach one of the regulars and almost sheepishly ask if he might join for dinner. Sometimes, he would invite them to whatever he had going on after. Buechler recalled ending up in the same rooms as Eddie Vedder and Billy Corgan on separate Rodman adventures. Most times, Rodman would leave dinner and vanish into the night.

Rodman had trouble verbalizing his guilt when he knew he had strayed too far, teammates recalled. "Dennis was shy," Kukoc said. Sometimes Jackson would do it for him. Other times, Rodman might buy everyone gifts. Just before Christmas one season, Rodman left each teammate a necklace to give to their wives -- a silent apology.

He also does not saying anything personal about Jordan. He says he's the GOAT, but that's it. I don't think Jordan is personally close to any NBA players nowadays.

[BitterApple]

My husband grew up in Illinois and was in junior high and high school during the Bulls' glory years. I'm not being hyperbolic to say his devotion to Jordan makes the Manson girls look tame by comparison. Watching the documentary with him has been a fascinating case study. He's in complete denial of two major elephants in the room, i.e., Jordan's obvious drinking problem and the fact that his gambling is most certainly an addiction, not a casual hobby. 

I'm just amazed that despite all the success, money, accolades and fan worship, Jordan comes off as an extremely bitter and angry man. It's been what, nearly thirty years and he's still harboring nasty grudges against other players? I get being driven and competitive, but jeez, let it go already. 

I would've loved for his first wife to be interviewed to see her take on all this, but maybe that would've been awkward or they're not on good terms. Aside from Carmen Electra and Jordan's mom, they haven't really featured any women who had the inside scoop. 

[Growsonwalls]

8 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

I'm just amazed that despite all the success, money, accolades and fan worship, Jordan comes off as an extremely bitter and angry man. It's been what, nearly thirty years and he's still harboring nasty grudges against other players? I get being driven and competitive, but jeez, let it go already. 

I would've loved for his first wife to be interviewed to see her take on all this, but maybe that would've been awkward or they're not on good terms. Aside from Carmen Electra and Jordan's mom, they haven't really featured any women who had the inside scoop. 

One of the more poignant things is seeing the footage of the younger Jordan smiling and laughing and joking with reporters. He was arrogant for sure but in that typical jock way. It's very different seeing him now still foaming at the mouth over decades-long grudges. Also his young, fit physique is a stark contrast to his bloated, bloodshot look. 

I notice his current wife (with whom he has young twins) also isn;t featured. Neither are his kids. Maybe MJ just isn't in a very good place in his life right now and hasn't been for awhile. He keeps his reputation very tightly regulated but I wouldn't be surprised if he was going through a lot of personal problems.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Growsonwalls

[truthaboutluv]

Admittedly I was very young during the heydays of the Bulls/Jordan (tween years) era and after the last championship, I slowly lost interest in the sport in general, moving more towards my love for tennis. I always check out a few games of the Finals series every year and I did watch much of Kobe's early years and championships with the Lakers. But in general, my NBA/basketball knowledge and interest since that last Chicago Bulls championship in the late 90s, has been minimum.

All this to say that I'm going to assume many of the above comments are related to more than just the documentary and also off-court rumors/stories and drama regarding Jordan, that I'm unaware of. Because I've watched all of the released episodes so far and see none of this angry, bitter person that's being described.

I think Jordan's come across quite well - introspective at times, funny, engaging, good storyteller, particularly in commenting on the things that were happening at the time the team members' feelings about it, etc. I actually haven't found anyone unlikable in the documentary, except for maybe Krause. But it's clear that dude got enough hate from the city and Bulls fans, right up until his death, that it's pointless to keep hating on him now. 

[mojoween]

Michael was 6’6” 200?  Jesus.  No wonder the Pistons beat the shit out of him.

[Growsonwalls]

1 hour ago, truthaboutluv said:

Admittedly I was very young during the heydays of the Bulls/Jordan (tween years) era and after the last championship, I slowly lost interest in the sport in general, moving more towards my love for tennis. I always check out a few games of the Finals series every year and I did watch much of Kobe's early years and championships with the Lakers. But in general, my NBA/basketball knowledge and interest since that last Chicago Bulls championship in the late 90s, has been minimum.

All this to say that I'm going to assume many of the above comments are related to more than just the documentary and also off-court rumors/stories and drama regarding Jordan, that I'm unaware of. Because I've watched all of the released episodes so far and see none of this angry, bitter person that's being described.

I think Jordan's come across quite well - introspective at times, funny, engaging, good storyteller, particularly in commenting on the things that were happening at the time the team members' feelings about it, etc. I actually haven't found anyone unlikable in the documentary, except for maybe Krause. But it's clear that dude got enough hate from the city and Bulls fans, right up until his death, that it's pointless to keep hating on him now. 

The Jordan bitter stuff comes from many many years of it being clear that he is one of those people that will just. not. let. it. drop.

Feud with Charles Barkley

Michael Jordan is a dick stories

And I've posted this before but the bitter rant that was his HOF induction speech

I guess I'm used to that side of his personality so I see it in the interviews of The Last Dance. He doesn't have a nice word to say about anyone. 

Also, the whole "Scottie Pippen had a migraine" story on twitter was explained that Scottie actually was out for a few minutes and suffered a concussion. Back then they didn't know what they know now about how dangerous concussions are. 

[truthaboutluv]

52 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

The Jordan bitter stuff comes from many many years of it being clear that he is one of those people that will just. not. let. it. drop.

Feud with Charles Barkley

Michael Jordan is a dick stories

And I've posted this before but the bitter rant that was his HOF induction speech

Got it. 

52 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

I guess I'm used to that side of his personality so I see it in the interviews of The Last Dance. He doesn't have a nice word to say about anyone. 

I guess it's all perspective because to me, he's said many positive things about a number of people in the documentary. Saying there would have been no championships without Scottie and acknowledging what Scottie brought to the team, his thoughts about Phil and in fact, all of his coaches throughout the years.

He was even positive about Rodman, while admitting that yeah Rodman was kind of a nutcase. So far, the only person I've gotten the impression that yes, Jordan truly does not like, is Isaiah Thomas. 

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't like Jordan either, but I do have to give him credit for saying he was only going to play for Phil Jackson in this final year. No excuse for the hall of fame speech though. 

I totally forgot Jordan was drafted in the mid 80s, though I do remember the Pistons always beating him.

And how in the hell old is Bob Costas?

3 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

One of the more poignant things is seeing the footage of the younger Jordan smiling and laughing and joking with reporters. He was arrogant for sure but in that typical jock way.

Regardless of the perspective, there is certainly a noticeable difference. I haven't gotten to far in yet, but he looks worn out. 

He was happy when the mother read the letter though. 

Natural talent aside, I also have to credit him for wanting to seriously put in work. I am continually stunned at how so many people I've encountered always take the expedient path and just don't want to put in work. One of the professors always told me 80% of getting the job done is showing up on time and being ready to put in the work. 

I'm surprised Smith told him to go pro and I totally forgot Hakeem went first. Cool to see Ewing.

UNC shot > Ehlo shot.

Edited April 28, 2020 by DoctorAtomic

[Growsonwalls]

As for Jordan's weight, 6'6" and 200 pounds isn't that unusual for basketball players. Basketball attracts ectomorphs. Yes there's exceptions like Shaq, Charles Barkley and to a lesser extent Lebron James. But height, agility, and speed are valued over muscle mass.

Reggie Miller was 6'7" and 195 pounds. Steph Curry is like 190 pounds. That's why Scottie Pippen and Phil Jackson so many years later still look like trees. 

Edited April 28, 2020 by Growsonwalls

[DoctorAtomic]

6 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Steph Curry is like 190 pounds.

Bull. He's 85 tops.

[Growsonwalls]

Ok wow. I found some background on the Jordan family:

Michael Jordan's sister alleges father raped her

In the HOF speech MJ did mention his sister and how she "wasn't here with us today" but started his competitive drive.

Maybe that explains some of MJ's personality. Abusive dads often create troubled, cruel sons. 

[Growsonwalls]

I just found this clip. Lots of fun. Some old NBA players shooting the shit and making up their fantasy baskebtall 90s versions teams.

 

 

[DoctorAtomic]

One thing I found interesting in E1 of Dance was that they were interviewing the top centers in the league at the time, and they were saying how Jordan wouldn't be able to take over a game. The league as you all know was very center dominated in the early/mid 80s. I found the hindsight funny since that's when it moved away from that style of play. Really you could almost say the Pistons first started that, but clearly, with Jordan doing what he did in that time period certainly shifted the style of play. 

 

[DoctorAtomic]

Another thing I always like is when players in any sport remember essentially every game they ever played it. I still do, and I'm sure a lot of you do too. 

[DoctorAtomic]

Yet the converse to the centers saying they didn't think Jordan could excel - you have Bird and Magic like, 'uh yeah. He's the real deal.'

I always liked Roman's game in the rebounding and hustle, but I was really surprised Jackson went so far to say Rodman was so important to the team with Pippin out. 

And I really was impressed at how Rodman explained how the ball would fall when Bird missed. 

Edited May 1, 2020 by DoctorAtomic

[DoctorAtomic]

I didn't remember the Ehlo shot being only three seconds and he had to go to his left. 

[DoctorAtomic]

I get a kick out of these 94-88 playoff scores from back then. 

I would have thought that Rodman would be someone Jordan just kind of tolerated. It looks like he genuinely liked him though.

Wow Jackson looked *wild* back in the day.  

I've always been fascinated with the triangle. You definitely need the right personnel for it. 

I didn't remember the Bulls and Pistons faced off 3 years in a row. Loved Ho Grant - Straight up bitches!

I know Jordan isn't the best guy, but I can't really fault him for calling Thomas an asshole. Thomas had the chance to walk it back and didn't either. 

I'm not sure what the logic was in putting Jordan on Magic in the first place though.

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by DoctorAtomic

[Growsonwalls]

So ... Magic Johnson was a cutie when he was younger. Very cute, friendly face.

I also like that after many years of beefing he reached out to Isiah Thomas and they are friendly again. That's such a contrast to Jordan's "I remember every slight" mantra.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Growsonwalls

[anyanka323]

The first four episodes have been a fascinating watch.  I had known prior to this that both Dennis Rodman and Scottie Pippen played for smaller college programs.  Jordan was the only one who played for a blue blood program, UNC.  It's interesting most players come from Power 5 programs or from overseas.  The recent exceptions who have achieved success in the NBA are Steph Curry and Ja Morant. 

Given that Jordan's production company is involved, of course he's going to be presented in the most favorable light.  The filmmakers aren't going to probe too deeply about his history of political neutrality and avoiding making controversial statements that would affect his endorsement earnings, his well documented gambling problems during his time with the Bulls, to name a couple touchy subjects. 

Michael Jordan was a player that was the greatest NBA player of his time for me growing up.  As an adult, he's a great player, but a very flawed human being.  As others have commented, the man can hold a grudge for a long time.  As an NBA owner, he seems to be one of the ones pushing a harder line about capping current players' share of income, something that he himself benefited from as a player. 

His last part of his playing career really reminds me a lot of Brett Favre.  In retrospect, both of their legacies as players would have been better if they had ended their playing careers with the teams they were most associated with.  Jordan seems to have had a more successful post playing career than Favre, though. 

[Growsonwalls]

Well these two episodes did bring up the gambling and not endorsing Jesse Helms' opponent as well as some of the tensions on the Dream Team.

I'm surprised it was so light on the Isiah Thomas controversy though. There's been entire books written on who exactly blackballed him. MJ says it wasn't him and at this point I believe him -- it seems like he's the type of person who would take credit for blackballing him.

I tend to believe it was Magic Johnson although neither Magic nor Isiah want to talk about it nowadays because they're friends again. And it's probably easier for Thomas to blame Jordan than to blame Magic just because his relationship with Magic is stronger and he doesn't want to go down that path.

[truthaboutluv]

19 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Well these two episodes did bring up the gambling and not endorsing Jesse Helms' opponent as well as some of the tensions on the Dream Team.

Exactly. There are 10 episodes in the documentary. I don't think we can definitively say what they will or will not talk about until all episodes have aired. 

19 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

MJ says it wasn't him and at this point I believe him -- it seems like he's the type of person who would take credit for blackballing him.

lol, agree. The way Michael so casually went, "yeah I hate him but I respect his talent" makes me believe that if he said he would not play on a team if Isaiah was playing, he would own that. 

19 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

And it's probably easier for Thomas to blame Jordan than to blame Magic just because his relationship with Magic is stronger and he doesn't want to go down that path.

And because Michael has made it clear he gives zero fucks about people thinking it was him. Because again, he makes no secret of his hatred for Isaiah. 

[Growsonwalls]

19 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

lol, agree. The way Michael so casually went, "yeah I hate him but I respect his talent" makes me believe that if he said he would not play on a team if Isaiah was playing, he would own that. 

And because Michael has made it clear he gives zero fucks about people thinking it was him. Because again, he makes no secret of his hatred for Isaiah. 

There are books and documentaries that go way more in depth about the Dream Team blackballing. 

Book about Dream Team

I think you're right that IT just wants to hate on Michael Jordan because it never gets old and Michael is such a great supervillain. Him and Magic recently:

 

[DoctorAtomic]

I liked the all star game footage with Kobe. 

Larry Bird rapping should never happen again. Though playing Special Ed over the segment was a big reach back. Good job on the production team. Jordan was as hot as a cabbage patch kid! hahahahaha

I never was really shoe guy. I never owned Jordans or got into the 'you have to get this and that.' It was certainly interesting about the history of the shoe deal and it came down to his parents. I totally loved the Spike Lee commercials.

How impactful to the game was Thomas at the time of the Dream Team anyway? I never thought that it was some big snub. 

How did they do defensive rotations back then? Because I fail to see why you'd put your top offensive player to guard the other team's. They don't do that now. 

 

[Growsonwalls]

5 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

How impactful to the game was Thomas at the time of the Dream Team anyway? I never thought that it was some big snub. 

It was a big deal back then because Isiah Thomas had been selected for the 1980 Olympics but did not get to go because of the boycott. It had been his dream to go. So ... it was a big deal. 

[DoctorAtomic]

2 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

21 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

MJ says it wasn't him and at this point I believe him -- it seems like he's the type of person who would take credit for blackballing him.

lol, agree. The way Michael so casually went, "yeah I hate him but I respect his talent" makes me believe that if he said he would not play on a team if Isaiah was playing, he would own that. 

I'm watching now, as you might gather from my posting, but this is coming across. He'd say - yeah, I told them that motherfucker is out or I'm out. 

3 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

t was a big deal back then because Isiah Thomas had been selected for the 1980 Olympics but did not get to go because of the boycott. It had been his dream to go. So ... it was a big deal. 

To him it was. I'm saying how essential would be he in 1992 since his own coach didn't push for him? Who also was the head coach of the dream team. On top of that, showing his issues with all the other players; it seems like he did it to himself. 

I'm certainly no Jordan in my profession. I'm not even Mullin. But there's people I won't work with. Not for any personal slights, but I don't like the way they work.

[DoctorAtomic]

22 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Well these two episodes did bring up the gambling and not endorsing Jesse Helms' opponent as well as some of the tensions on the Dream Team.

It's certainly an interesting issue because people are putting obligations on Jordan that really isn't necessarily his responsibility. Which is kind of funny nowadays. When was the Barkley commercial? I feel like it had to be around then. 

It's not fair to make an Ali comparison because it's like another universe back then. 

I mean, to be fair, the phenomenon of Jordan was unprecedented, and I would have to think just getting through the day was enough of a job that just focusing on basketball, his literal job, might be all he felt he could do. 

Nowadays, it's not unprecedented so you can't really look to the mid 90s through a 2020 lens. 

He's kind of right in saying that people are always going to want more though.  

 

[Growsonwalls]

Heh, there's some Dream Team twitter drama tonight:

Edited May 5, 2020 by Growsonwalls

[DoctorAtomic]

Is it really the number objecting though? 

[truthaboutluv]

25 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Is it really the number objecting though? 

Right? I mean does it really matter? The documentary didn't even say anything about it being 9 players, unless I missed that. It just made it clear that multiple big names (such as Magic Johnson and Larry Bird) on the team, besides Jordan, had their issues with Isaiah at the time. And so his not getting on wasn't solely based on Jordan not liking him. 

Btw, something that wasn't touched on in the documentary but I want to mention, is that of course we all know by the time of the '92 Olympics, Magic had already revealed he was HIV Positive.

And thinking about how bad things still were back then in terms of the stigma (Sure it wasn't as bad as the early 80's, when there was mass panic because people still didn't know what it truly was. But there was still a big stigma), I thought it was really cool to see how warm all the players were towards Magic regardless and especially him and Jordan. They were constantly embracing and not seeming like their relationship was any different at all. I just thought was heartwarming to see. 

50 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

It's certainly an interesting issue because people are putting obligations on Jordan that really isn't necessarily his responsibility.

It's definitely a very tricky and touchy subject. Personally, I've always been of the belief that I don't need any celebrity to get on a political soapbox and publicly declare their political beliefs. If they want to, then more power to them, which is why I disagree with the people who say things like "just shut up and sing" or as the Fox woman said about LeBron and would be apt here, "just shut up and dribble". 

As far as I'm concerned, any tax paying citizen of a country has the right to speak on the political decisions that shape their country, if they so chose to. But I've never felt like they are obligated to. I understand the sentiment of standing up for and believing in something. But again, that doesn't mean getting on a soap box and taking a public stance. Then again, my feeling on this probably comes from the fact that I've never looked to famous people to be my heroes, ever. 

For me celebrities have always been people that I'm either a fan of their work, like their vibe or there are those I give zero fucks about. I never care enough to even hate any famous person unless they do something truly awful and evil. So yeah, I like Jordan and the Bulls but I never idolized MJ. Of course I was also a tween/young teen girl at the time of the Bulls reign, so there was that. 

Edited May 5, 2020 by truthaboutluv

[DoctorAtomic]

I was in college so I couldn't really regularly watch TV at the time. 

To get more into it, Jordan said he didn't want to endorse the guy because he didn't know him. Well, he didn't take the time to either. I don't know if it would have made a difference either way. 

I don't mind athletes speaking out if they want. And raising awareness for important issues is fine. 

At the time, that wasn't the norm like it is now. It's kind of interesting that Kerr is rather out spoken. 

I just watched E5, and they didn't say 9 players. They showed clips of Thomas mixing it up with Pippin, Bird, and Magic, and then Jordan, when the Pistons walked off. The Chicago sports journalist was saying that there's no way Thomas would have ever been on the team with all he did. 

I could see Barkley and some of the rest being like, ok fuck him, we don't need him if you guys don't want. I don't really care, I just want to play. 

[Growsonwalls]

Hmm while it was rarer for athletes to speak out about social issues back then it wasn't unheard of. Kareem Abdul Jabbar was/is very outspoken and is also an excellent writer and movie critic. Magic Johnson endorsed a bunch of Democratic candidates. Gregg Popovich has always been very politically outspoken and he's a very old-school era NBA coach. Reggie Miller was/is pretty outspoken too as is of course Steve Kerr who was part of that Bulls dynasty. 

On the other side of the spectrum Karl Malone and Clyde Drexler are very outspoken Republicans and they're very old-school NBA too.

Here's an old article about who gives to which party in the NBA:

https://www.espn.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/1257/the-democrats-and-republicans-of-the-nba

Michael Jordan actually donates a lot of money to the Democratic party. Actually politics is probably the one area where he and Isiah Thomas could talk and agree.

ETA: found this article about last night's episodes:

Big Takeaways from last night's episodes

A Kobe story:

Quote

Dave McMenamin: Seeing Jordan lean into the nostalgia surrounding his last trip to Madison Square Garden as a Bull by breaking out his original Air Jordans made me think of the conspiracy theory Kobe Bryant told me about that game.

It was Jan. 21, 2011. We were in Denver, hanging on the baseline following Lakers shootaround at the Pepsi Center. I wanted to know, with the five-year anniversary of his 81-point game coming the next day, if he would be tempted to dust off his Nike Zoom Kobe 1s -- the kicks he wore against the Toronto Raptors when he went for 81 -- the way Jordan went retro at MSG. Kobe gave me the "Did this man really say what I think he said?" glare he would shoot me from time to time when my questions came out of left field before bowling me over with his response.

No, he wouldn't be wearing those sneakers, he told me. And no, Jordan wasn't wearing the AJ1s to celebrate coming full circle at the World's Most Famous Arena, either. At least, not according to Kobe. It was purely a business move by Michael, Kobe told me. Nike was planning to re-release Jordan's signature sneakers, and what better way to make people want to buy shoes from the '80s than to see Jordan rock them in the late '90s?

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by Growsonwalls