One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

5 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

She's too busy coming up with clever quips.

However, she did bring him a turkey burger when he was in his apartment making funeral arrangements for Uncle Louie.  Not that she made it but at least she thought of him and brought it up.  And she did take over the diner and attend the funeral.  

Thanks.

I've watched the show several times and as rare as they were, I had no recollection of them. Strange

[junienmomo]

2 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

This got me thinking. Not that I'm for or against that sort of thing, out of curiosity. Has Lorelai ever "taken care" of Luke in a domestic way ever? What does she do for him as far as caring?

The writers were drawing deliberate contrasts between LL and RL, both in the way they were affectionate with each other and how their relationships played out day to day. 

Luke was definitely catering to Lorelai's needs, which she blithely accepted. Rory was an active pursuer and participant in the RL relationship. 

Lorelai did try on occasion, usually partially failing. She had much more success in taking care of Christopher in e.g. S5 than she did Luke. 

Notable attempts include Lorelai banishing him to the woods, bringing him champagne, which he hated, and after he was already asleep. Taking care of her white knight after he busted his butt for her Inn, even though Manny could have done it from the start. Buying his boat. Giving him advice about Jess. Not telling him about a suspected pregnancy. Telling him he shouldn't meet her parents and he didn't have to go to the vow renewal. Getting hot dog Kirk away from the diner.

[Melancholy]

One of my favorite things about the Revival is that Lorelai was such a partner to Luke as she hadn't been in the series. There were scenes of her instinctively helping to clean up the diner like it was her habit, trying to help set up dinners, trying to mediate Liz/TJ's latest screw-up, offering her last slice of pizza to Luke. It subtly but powerfully signaled that Lorelai had really evolved by the Revival. I think Lorelai genuinely wanted to be a helpful partner to Luke in the series because she loved him. However, Series!Lorelai had a pretty immature attitude to life that her best way of helping was to give some magical speech that would show everyone the right path forward. It could work. We didn't see her work her way up as a maid; we saw her have a successful career based on being a *manager* who came up with the big vision and delegated to the actual cook, maids, kitchen staff, concierge, etc. and focused more on the big picture and embodying that ideal big picture more than actual details. However, it could be very annoying in her personal life, especially with Luke and her parents, where Lorelai conflated bossiness with support/kindness. 

Edited February 19, 2017 by Melancholy

[junienmomo]

2 hours ago, Melancholy said:

One of my favorite things about the Revival is that Lorelai was such a partner to Luke as she hadn't been in the series. There were scenes of her instinctively helping to clean up the diner like it was her habit, trying to help set up dinners, trying to mediate Liz/TJ's latest screw-up, offering her last slice of pizza to Luke. It subtly but powerfully signaled that Lorelai had really evolved by the Revival. I think Lorelai genuinely wanted to be a helpful partner to Luke in the series because she loved him. However, Series!Lorelai had a pretty immature attitude to life that her best way of helping was to give some magical speech that would show everyone the right path forward. It could work. We didn't see her work her way up as a maid; we saw her have a successful career based on being a *manager* who came up with the big vision and delegated to the actual cook, maids, kitchen staff, concierge, etc. and focused more on the big picture and embodying that ideal big picture more than actual details. However, it could be very annoying in her personal life, especially with Luke and her parents, where Lorelai conflated bossiness with support/kindness. 

 You make a very good point here. I had been thinking about Lorelai in the revival more from her dissatisfaction/depression/unhappiness/whatever it was that led her to stay in therapy.  But the things you say here are true. She and Luke are working as partners, and as long as she doesn't look at her life philosophically, she seems quite happy living the way she wanted to when she wanted to have her middle. 

[dubbel zout]

On 2/17/2017 at 7:54 PM, junienmomo said:

She had much more success in taking care of Christopher in e.g. S5 than she did Luke. 

Luke was much more self-sufficient than Christopher, and Luke was also less selfish.

I have a hard time believing Lindsay was that naive about money. Stars Hollow was not Greenwich. It was annoying that she was set up as the fall guy just so Rory would have a slightly better reason to sleep with Dean. Ugh. I hated that whole story. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

Luke was much more self-sufficient than Christopher, and Luke was also less selfish.

I would say it wasn't a matter of Luke being less selfish than Christopher.  It was more like Luke was selfish in different ways than Christopher.  His behavior during the whole April debacle still amazes me, if only for Luke's complete lack of interest in really considering Lorelai's feelings when making his decisions.  Everything felt like it was about what was best for Luke, with little thought given to Lorelai. 

[dubbel zout]

I wasn't making a general statement about the guys but talking about them w/r/t how much Lorelei took care of them.

[Iknewyoucoulddoit]

I've lurked for a long time and finally gathered enough caffeine-generated courage to join you all while playing hooky from work! I've read over half the pages in this thread and have realized that most of my opinions are unpopular, but I've also seen that no one here is ever completely on their own - there's always someone who feels the way you do or at least appreciates beeing exposed to a different perspective. 

So without further ado - 

I am incapable of hating Rory. I can read 30 compelling arguments detailing why she's awful, rationally agree with at least 29 of them, but I still like her. Like a few people here have shared, her attributes and flaws are similar to my own, so maybe despising her would be a self-hatred of sorts that I'm not ready to embrace. It's not logical, but I can't help caring about her, relating to her and sometimes finding her interesting to analyze and write about- especially before the revival, which I've generally tried to erase from memory anyway. Speaking of irrational opinions - 

I also love Rory with Jess. I don't usually like fictional bad boys, and when I read here about why people hate him and the way he and Rory were together, I see merit in every point. I can't argue that their relationship was healthy - but then almost no Gilmore Girls romances are. In real life, Jess would probably not have been my type even if I weren't decades older than he and Rory. But whatever that magical, inexplicable allure is that makes us love and invest in certain fictional relationships, even ones we wouldn't always support in real life, Rory and Jess have it in abundance for me. They are the only GG relationship that does. Like someone else said, I see them and my heart screams soulmates even when my mind rolls its eyes and tells me to get over it. 

Lorelai and Luke are awful together and completely mismatched. It hurts my heart to write that. Like many of you, I spent most of the first season thinking they were meant to be and impatiently waiting for the writers to put them together. Even through the next few seasons, while Luke seemed to get dumber, duller and suffer from some sort of generalized anger disorder, Lorelai continued to annoy and be way too self-impressed, and both made utterly ludicrous choices in their other romantic relationships, I told myself that my irritation came from how the writers were keeping them apart in contrived ways and that I'd fall back in love with them as characters and a duo once they finally got together. Only once they got together, it was worse instead of better. Others here have said it better and more concisely, so I'll just cosign on the disappointment over how little joy and fun they seemed to have, how infrequently they really connected or seemed to enjoy each other's company, how remarkably little chemistry there was, how neither seemed especially happy while they were together, how the actors seemed to recoil at having to show any affection, and how I've met inanimate objects with far better communication skills. They worked better in that dream scene from Lazy Hazy Crazy Days than they did in reality. It's like the relationship highlighted both characters' worst individual flaws and obscured their better attributes. Whoever said that Lauren Graham seemed significantly happier and full of life when sharing scenes with David Sutcliffe was on point. In hindsight, I'd have been fine with Luke and Lorelai never getting back together after Wedding Bell Blues, realizing they aren't compatible as anything more than friends and moving forward with their lives.  

Lorelai has some definite character strengths. And I do, unlike some, feel that was she was a very good mother overall, especially when we take her age into account. But as infuriating, entitled, annoying, narcissstic and selfish as most find Rory, that's how I view Lorelai. She gets worse every time I watch the show.

Rory is usually lost, clueless and floating around in a bubble that desperately needs to be burst, and she's got a truckload of character flaws to be sure, but Lorelai bothers me a lot more. I think it's because she's got such a massive ego and plays up on how cute and alluring she (thinks she) is, which happens to be a pet peeve. I will concede that Lorelai seeming egotistical may sometimes be compensation for insecurity, though usually the conceit over how "pretty" and charming she thinks she is seems totally sincere to me. Either way, I now spend most of the series wishing someone would tell her to stop self-indulgently chattering on about herself long enough to examine who she really is, make some changes or at least cut those obnoxious "bits" short. THEY'RE NOT FUNNY OR ADORABLE.  

I like Luke around Jess and April so much more than I do in relation to Lorelai. I actually like April. 

I wish Logan and Rory had never become more than casually involved and that Logan had left the show by the end of season 5. 

Despite my feelings about Logan and how tiring Luke and Lorelai's depressing relationship was by then, I like Season 6 and relate to, if not agree with, a lot of Rory's story that season. There were some very interesting ideas at play in S6. Most of them weren't excuted that well, but it was enough to make the season interesting to me. I may or may not be writing a fanfic based on parts of S6. I am more than a little ashamed to admit that!  

I don't hate Nicole. I don't like her, but there are much worse characters on this show. Nicole seemed more shy, uncomfortable and reserved to me than snotty. She and Luke were mismatched, but maybe not much more so than Luke and Lorelai were. 

Lorelai worked best with Jason or single. 

Luke should have ended up with Rachel or single. 

Paris is entertaining and has some of the show's classic lines and an interesting dynamic with Rory, but in real life she would be a horror show to have to deal with.  I'm always surprised to see how revered she is by the fanbase and how everything she says and does is defended. She may be the most consistently, unnecessarily mean GG character, and there is some competition in that category. 

I think Alexis Bledel did just as well in the role of Rory as Lauren Graham did with Lorelai, though I agree with people who point out that Alexis's talents do NOT extent to crying convincingly on camera. To me both Alexis and Lauren are examples of people perfectly suited to the specific roles they were cast in but not very strong actors overall. Kelly Bishop is in a whole different league, and the main and often only reason why I enjoy Emily despite her being a character who would make my blood pressure spike to dangerous levels if I had to interact with her in real life. 

Season 7 > the revival. 

There is so much wrong with this show, but it will always be one of my very favorites anyway!!  

 

 

Spoiler

 

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Iknewyoucoulddoit said:

Paris is entertaining and has some of the show's classic lines and an interesting dynamic with Rory, but in real life she would be a horror show to have to deal with.  I'm always surprised to see how revered she is by the fanbase and how everything she says and does is defended. She may be the most consistently, unnecessarily mean GG character, and there is some competition in that category. 

I agree that Paris is a horrible person, but she does get slightly better with time.  But, I would never want to know her in real life, yet, can still enjoy watching her on a TV show.  Plus, I tend to feel bad for her.  Her parents basically had her, hired a nanny and got on with their lives.  I think, with or without knowing it, the reason she is so driven is she wants her parents to care about her.  So, she's actually chosen the lesser of two evils, since she didn't go crazy looking for negative attention.

[Iknewyoucoulddoit]

Quote

But, I would never want to know her in real life, yet, can still enjoy watching her on a TV show. 

I think you just summed up how I feel about 90% of the characters on this show! 

[ghoulina]

Yea, I think a lot of the characters on this show would insufferable in real life. But that's what I love about GG - the over-the-topness. The whimsy. The exaggerated. The insane. It's FUN, for me. Paris is one of my favorite characters because, in a fictional world, she makes me laugh. In real life I'd like to pop her one, but I am kind of half and half with this show. It has some wonderfully serious moments, but there's a lot that I think it just so crazy it's meant to just be enjoyed and not taken literally. 

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

Yea, I think a lot of the characters on this show would insufferable in real life. But that's what I love about GG - the over-the-topness. The whimsy. The exaggerated. The insane. It's FUN, for me. Paris is one of my favorite characters because, in a fictional world, she makes me laugh. In real life I'd like to pop her one, but I am kind of half and half with this show. It has some wonderfully serious moments, but there's a lot that I think it just so crazy it's meant to just be enjoyed and not taken literally. 

I had never really thought about it, but you're probably right.  The only character from the show I can think of off the top of my head that I would like to know personally is Lane.  Maybe Tana and Marty.

[hippielamb]

On 2/24/2017 at 3:48 PM, Katy M said:

I had never really thought about it, but you're probably right.  The only character from the show I can think of off the top of my head that I would like to know personally is Lane.  Maybe Tana and Marty.

My thoughts exactly. I identify with Lorelai's young single mom story but honestly her constant chattering about pop culture would drive me nuts. And some of her life choices have seriously disappointed me. Lane is the character I have the most in common with, even down to the musician S.O. I even like how she decorated her house in the revival lol 

[TimetravellingBW]

On 2/25/2017 at 9:48 AM, Katy M said:

I had never really thought about it, but you're probably right.  The only character from the show I can think of off the top of my head that I would like to know personally is Lane.  Maybe Tana and Marty.

Same, Lane you could have an actual conversation with rather than listening to monologues about herself. Season 6 onwards Jess I'd hang out with, now he can talk in more than one syllable he'd be good to chat about books with. But being friends in RL with everyone else...Nope. Definitely not with the people they ended up as by the revival. 

Edited February 26, 2017 by TimetravellingBW

[Chewy101]

On 5/30/2016 at 0:06 AM, Smad said:

On 5/29/2016 at 3:38 PM, txhorns79 said:

The show isn't always very consistent with how it writes the characters.

Just needs to be quoted again for absolute truth. This show really is a prime example of the kind of TV I hate where 'plot drives the characters' instead of how it should be where 'characters drive the plot'. Only the latter one guarantees character consistency. The former gives us 'several Luke's' as another poster said.

Why do I like this show again?

I loved this. I wonder why I like the show at all as well. I feel like everyone analyzes the men, deciding who Princess Lorelai should win, and I can't stand HER. When she needs to step up and be a mom, she is amazing. But every other time she is whiny, self centered, immature, and selfish. I cannot stand her baby voice, the away she acts like the entire world needs to feed her around the clock, and how she rambles endlessly instead of, for once, making a point. It could be a drinking game, every time she makes pouty face. It's like she is two different people and I find it exhausting. I hate the entire Dean and Max arc because it seemed set up just so the men could talk about the Amazing and Quirky Women in Their Lives. It was awful.

I think my favorite guy WAS Luke, but I also thought he was too good for Lorelai. I enjoyed Jason for her. He seemed to be less indulgent and enabling, and she seemed to behave more like an adult with him, instead of the baby she normally is. 

On 2/24/2017 at 2:41 PM, ghoulina said:

Yea, I think a lot of the characters on this show would insufferable in real life. But that's what I love about GG - the over-the-topness. The whimsy. The exaggerated. The insane. It's FUN, for me. Paris is one of my favorite characters because, in a fictional world, she makes me laugh. In real life I'd like to pop her one, but I am kind of half and half with this show. It has some wonderfully serious moments, but there's a lot that I think it just so crazy it's meant to just be enjoyed and not taken literally. 

I LOVED Paris. She was hilarious, but also someone you want on your side. Her passion and intensity definitely added something to the show filled with flakes.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Chewy101

[Chewy101]

On 2/24/2017 at 10:35 AM, Iknewyoucoulddoit said:

Rory is usually lost, clueless and floating around in a bubble that desperately needs to be burst, and she's got a truckload of character flaws to be sure, but Lorelai bothers me a lot more. I think it's because she's got such a massive ego and plays up on how cute and alluring she (thinks she) is, which happens to be a pet peeve. I will concede that Lorelai seeming egotistical may sometimes be compensation for insecurity, though usually the conceit over how "pretty" and charming she thinks she is seems totally sincere to me. Either way, I now spend most of the series wishing someone would tell her to stop self-indulgently chattering on about herself long enough to examine who she really is, make some changes or at least cut those obnoxious "bits" short. THEY'RE NOT FUNNY OR ADORABLE.  

Have to add this, because it is hilarious that the two main characters are just the worst. Rory completed her loserdom by squandering a gazillion dollars on the most prestigious of educations, just to think she was too good to wait tables when she couldn't find the dream journalist job, and then get knocked up.

 

15 minutes ago, Chewy101 said:

 

Edited February 27, 2017 by Chewy101

[Taryn74]

1 hour ago, Chewy101 said:

I LOVED Paris. She was hilarious, but also someone you want on your side. Her passion and intensity definitely added something to the show filled with flakes.

Thank you.  You just solidified for me why I, too, love Paris.  Once she is on your team, she is fiercely loyal (even if she is currently freaking out at you over something, heh) and doesn't wither away like some shrinking flower every time you have an argument or hurt her feelings.  And she gets stuff done.  I think back to when she called the hospital and got the scoop on Logan's injuries -- she did that for Rory's sake, not because she gives a whit about Logan (because she doesn't).  That's the kind of friend I want sticking up for me, you know?

[Kohola3]

1 hour ago, Chewy101 said:

Have to add this, because it is hilarious that the two main characters are just the worst. Rory completed her loserdom by squandering a gazillion dollars on the most prestigious of educations, just to think she was too good to wait tables when she couldn't find the dream journalist job, and then get knocked up.

So well said....

[ghoulina]

15 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

Thank you.  You just solidified for me why I, too, love Paris.  Once she is on your team, she is fiercely loyal (even if she is currently freaking out at you over something, heh) and doesn't wither away like some shrinking flower every time you have an argument or hurt her feelings.  And she gets stuff done.  I think back to when she called the hospital and got the scoop on Logan's injuries -- she did that for Rory's sake, not because she gives a whit about Logan (because she doesn't).  That's the kind of friend I want sticking up for me, you know?

And when Lucy and Rory had their falling out, she was demanding that Lucy talk to Rory and give her a chance to apologize. Not really her place, but yea - once Paris and Rory solidified their friendship, that was it. They could call each other out when they were being asses (Paris cheating on Jamie with Asher, Rory dropping out), but Paris still had her back when it mattered. She was brash and hard to swallow sometimes, but her devotion was unwavering. 

Okay, except for the Yale thing, but I get Paris's feelings on that, and their estrangement didn't last long. 

[JayInChicago]

So I have a really weird kind of gross comment.

this is dealing with "the last four words"--

so like I have had very little "this could result in pregnancy" sex, particularly as an adult and not a stupid teenager. I do assume that most people in their 30s who have no reason to suspect infertility have thought about like family planning and stuff and would be combining birth control with maybe a barrier method and/or avoiding highly fertile days and/or pulling out. 

Am I wrong? You don't have to get personal but like...people in their 30s generally don't just get "oopsie pregnant". Right? And I feel like assuming the baby is Logan's, they especially would be very careful due to all the cheating and Logan's place as heir to the fortune. 

So it's pretty weird Rory is pregnant, yes? Unless maybe she wanted to be. I know methods aren't 100% but ...uh...

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

There've been posts on Reddit that she intentionally got pregnant to trap Logan. 

[Kohola3]

1 hour ago, JayInChicago said:

So it's pretty weird Rory is pregnant, yes? Unless maybe she wanted to be. I know methods aren't 100% but ...uh...

I totally agree with this.  It was another suspension of disbelief idea from ASP.  She was never very good at thinking things through logically - if she really had those last 4 words in her mind from the beginning then she was going to use them come hell or high water.  Screw logic.

[tarotx]

Accidental pregnancies happen at any age. Though only a small amount of those are on functionally birth control and I'm sure happens less often with responsible adults. I can guess that Rory was lax with getting her birth control. Rory's life was a mess and the two times we know she had sex, alcohol was involved. Lorelai had a pregnancy scare in season 5 - I mean she had unprotected sex and then craved an Apple. She and Rory had a conversation about was Rory protected but they didn't really talk about what kind or anything. 

I really doubt Rory would want to trap Logan. It's not something Rory would do. She and Logan were just drunk and careless because in their hearts they knew it was goodbye sex. 

Edited February 27, 2017 by tarotx

[moonb]

My completely worthless experience has been that 20- and 30-somethings in stable ongoing relationships have fewer birth control issues. Or frankly, an accidental pregnancy can be presented as a happy, planned event. Equally possible. What I think does happen is that more casual or intermittent relationships can mess with that stuff (because why stay on long-term bc if it's unnecessary?) I definitely know of some responsible adults who were careless and over age 35. It happens.  Since Rory was having a year-long meltdown, birth control caution probably wasn't at the top of her list.  And it's possible that time zone differences and Rory's travelling could have lowered a pill's effectiveness. 

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, JayInChicago said:

So I have a really weird kind of gross comment.

this is dealing with "the last four words"--

so like I have had very little "this could result in pregnancy" sex, particularly as an adult and not a stupid teenager. I do assume that most people in their 30s who have no reason to suspect infertility have thought about like family planning and stuff and would be combining birth control with maybe a barrier method and/or avoiding highly fertile days and/or pulling out. 

Am I wrong? You don't have to get personal but like...people in their 30s generally don't just get "oopsie pregnant". Right? And I feel like assuming the baby is Logan's, they especially would be very careful due to all the cheating and Logan's place as heir to the fortune. 

So it's pretty weird Rory is pregnant, yes? Unless maybe she wanted to be. I know methods aren't 100% but ...uh...

My sister had an "oopsie" pregnancy at 34.  She wasn't on BC because she wasn't dating anyone.  I kind of half suspect she did it on purpose to trap the guy, but it's not like I actually accused her, so it's officially an "oopsie."

[dubbel zout]

My cousin got pregnant while on birth control, and the guy had a low sperm count to boot. Mother Nature is a crafty bitch.

[JessDVD]

Attempting to come up with a logical scenario for anything that ASP writes is probably a worthless endeavor - but yet I type the rest of this anyway. If Rory were on the pill, with the international flying, I can see it being VERY easy to get off routine and/or forget to take it for a couple days. Most people I know use a phone alarm to remind them to take it each day. Traveling across time zones (CT to England), I doubt that alarm would be effective, and it only takes a couple days of irregularity or missing a pill before hormone levels can drop low enough to ovulate.

I tend to be of the mind that if you're old enough to be having sex, you should be responsible enough to use BC, and yet I was the one who missed a pill while on our 10th anniversary trip last summer. Fortunately the fertility gods did not grant me a 5th child. And I know several children who were created while the parents were using birth control correctly. As they say, the only 100% reliable form of birth control is keeping your knees together.

That said, I doubt ASP gave any of this a moment's thought. If this was endgame, it was endgame regardless of how logical or not it was.

[AllyB]

On 2/28/2017 at 2:23 AM, JessDVD said:

That said, I doubt ASP gave any of this a moment's thought. If this was endgame, it was endgame regardless of how logical or not it was.

True and as this was endgame for a potential series 8, Rory should have been about 23 when it happened. That said birth control isn't always effective. I knew a girl back in college who was always super careful she was on the pill and always insisted on a condom. She had a one night stand with a guy she met on a weekend away and as she also threw up over the weekend she decided to cover all bases and take the morning after pill. Her kid is 18 now. Sometimes even the best laid plans don't work out. Though Rory couldn't even remember that she had a boyfriend of nearly 3 years at the time she got pregnant, so who knows what her birth control plan was!!!!

[Katy M]

17 minutes ago, AllyB said:

True and as this was endgame for a potential series 8, Rory should have been about 23 when it happened. That said birth control isn't always effective. I knew a girl back in college who was always super careful she was on the pill and always insisted on a condom. She had a one night stand with a guy she met on a weekend away and as she also threw up over the weekend she decided to cover all bases and take the morning after pill. Her kid is 18 now. Sometimes even the best laid plans don't work out. Though Rory couldn't even remember that she had a boyfriend of nearly 3 years at the time she got pregnant, so who knows what her birth control plan was!!!!

Actually, I think not remembering you have a boyfriend is pretty good b/c.

This was the planned endgame no matter what, from what I understand. ASP couldn't possibly know how many seasons the show would last.  So, it could have happened during high school or college or the end as we know it.  At any rate, I think I would have liked those four words best if they had followed a wedding episode.  Or, at least, have the possibility of adding a silent "and I know who the father is."

[Iknewyoucoulddoit]

Moving this here because I realized how unpopular it was after I finished typing it.

The revival confirmed for me that I dislike Logan even more than Christopher, but I felt that way even before. I see Christopher as a guy who, in his own ineffectual way, does sincerely care about people but is just a perpetual screwup. I'm not defending his choices, but I don't see him as a bad guy, just a continually misguided one. I always found Logan a much more duplicitous, smarmy guy than Christopher, a guy who will very deliberately use his cunning and what is supposed to pass for charm to manipulate and deceive to make sure he gets everything he wants without having to give anything up along the way.  

Just my opinion, and I respect that it's not one that many share! 

Edited March 3, 2017 by Iknewyoucoulddoit

[elang4]

2 hours ago, Iknewyoucoulddoit said:

Moving this here because I realized how unpopular it was after I finished typing it.

The revival confirmed for me that I dislike Logan even more than Christopher, but I felt that way even before. I see Christopher as a guy who, in his own ineffectual way, does sincerely care about people but is just a perpetual screwup. I'm not defending his choices, but I don't see him as a bad guy, just a continually misguided one. I always found Logan a much more duplicitous, smarmy guy than Christopher, a guy who will very deliberately use his cunning and what is supposed to pass for charm to manipulate and deceive to make sure he gets everything he wants without having to give anything up along the way.  

Just my opinion, and I respect that it's not one that many share! 

I agree and I'm the first to admit I really don't like Chris but maybe that's because I can relate to having a rubbish dad. However, me not liking him doesn't mean I think he's a bad person. He just was a pretty deadbeat dad.

[dubbel zout]

Christopher isn't actively evil, I'll give him that. But I don't think you can be a good person and be a deadbeat dad. He's been a terrible father to two children, and there was enough time between Rory and Gigi that he could have stepped up with Gigi. He didn't. 

[Iknewyoucoulddoit]

Just to be clear, I wasn't defending Christopher so much as awkwardly trying to explain my unpopular opinion that Logan just always rubbed me the wrong way even more than Christopher did. To me there is just something more deliberately manipulative about Logan than Christopher. But I would never defend being a neglectful parent - which is one reason I also hold the unpopular opinion of thinking Liz deserves more hate than almost anyone else on this show! - and am sincerely sorry if it came across that way!  

Edited March 3, 2017 by Iknewyoucoulddoit

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

I really hate Amy didn't have to clean up her own Luke and Lorelai season 6 mess. She both benefits from the people that liked how they handled it in season 7 and the cover of it from the people that hated how they dealt with it. She can use it and dismiss it at the same time, and then she has the ten year gap that grants her the ability not to acknowledge it in the revival . I can't imagine her being able to write out of the hole she dug, given how much she hates to let people communicate on this show, and it kinda bugs me that she didn't have to.

Edited March 3, 2017 by RoyRogersMcFreely

[Guest]

2 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Christopher isn't actively evil, I'll give him that. But I don't think you can be a good person and be a deadbeat dad. He's been a terrible father to two children, and there was enough time between Rory and Gigi that he could have stepped up with Gigi. He didn't. 

Why do you think he was a terrible father to Gigi?  Wanting to send her to Paris with the nanny was an error in judgment, but other than that, I don't see any evidence that he was terrible.

[Iknewyoucoulddoit]

Quote

I really hate Amy didn't have to clean up her own Luke and Lorelai season 6 mess. She both benefits from the people that liked how they handled it in season 7 and the cover of it from the people that hated how they dealt with it. She can use it and dismiss it at the same time, and then she has the ten year gap that grants her the ability not the acknowledge it in the revival . I can't imagine her being able to write out of the hole she dug, given how much she hates to let people communicate on this show, and it kinda bugs me that she didn't have to.

I would add the very unpopular opinion that I think the Palladinos did a worse job with Seasons 5, 6 and the revival than Rosenthal did with S7 even though S7 is always so criticized. I'm coming around to the belief that the Palladinos are good at writing dialogue and individually poignant scenes but very poor writers when it comes to everything else - characters, relationships, storytelling, plotting, pacing, continuity, and so on. And even some of that much heralded dialogue goes annoyingly over the top.  

Edited March 3, 2017 by Iknewyoucoulddoit

[Taryn74]

11 minutes ago, deaja said:

Why do you think he was a terrible father to Gigi?  Wanting to send her to Paris with the nanny was an error in judgment, but other than that, I don't see any evidence that he was terrible.

I agree.  

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

4 minutes ago, Iknewyoucoulddoit said:

I would add the very unpopular opinion that I think the Palladinos did a worse job with Seasons 5, 6 and the revival than Rosenthal did with S7 even though S7 is always so criticized. I'm coming around to the belief that the Palladinos are good at writing dialogue and individually poignant scenes but very poor writers when it comes to everything else - characters, relationships, storytelling, plotting, pacing, continuity, and so on. And even some of that much heralded dialogue goes annoyingly over the top.  

I wholeheartedly agree with all of this. They allowed the show to get more dramatic and let emotional baggage pile up, then just swept it under the rug. Not dealing with things kind of broke my emotional connection to the characters because they cease to be characters and become simply plot devices.

[Iknewyoucoulddoit]

Quote

Wanting to send her to Paris with the nanny was an error in judgment, but other than that, I don't see any evidence that he was terrible.

I didn't even think that was that terrible! And although he obviously was not a solid and sufficiently involved presence in Rory's life, I wouldn't say he was a complete deadbeat either. I know of parents who played no role in their kids' lives at all, and that wasn't the case here. Tbh, I think there's a tendency to overly vilify Christopher. I don't like or respect him much, but he's not nearly as awful as many make him out to be. Maybe for some seeing everything that Christopher does in the worst possible light makes it easier to think well of Luke by contrast and the dreary, depressing dysfunction of Luke x Lorelai.

I also think Christopher and Lorelai ctually communicated a lot better than Luke and Lorelai ever did and had more chemistry and happiness in their relationship too, but that may be because I'm thinking mostly of the scenes written by Rosenthal in season 7, and he didn't seem to hate and resent writing for romanctic couples as much as the Palladinos did. 

Edited March 3, 2017 by Iknewyoucoulddoit

[ghoulina]

I will fully admit that 90% of my Christopher dislike is the actor. I think he looks like a weasel and acts like a weasel and I just cannot stand any time his little weasely self comes on screen. There were character flaws as well, but seriously....I just cannot stand to look at him. 

That being said, I think he did a fine job with Gigi. He intentionally went back to Sherry because he DIDN'T want to be absent from her life like he was with Rory. He stuck it out, when her mother abandoned her. He then gave said mother a second chance and tried to help foster a relationship between those two. He listened to advice and learned how to be a better parent. He was in Gigi's life daily. So I think he improved a lot in that arena. 

[Katy M]

13 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

 

That being said, I think he did a fine job with Gigi. He intentionally went back to Sherry because he DIDN'T want to be absent from her life like he was with Rory. He stuck it out, when her mother abandoned her. He then gave said mother a second chance and tried to help foster a relationship between those two. He listened to advice and learned how to be a better parent. He was in Gigi's life daily. So I think he improved a lot in that arena. 

I completely agree. Chris and Gigi was a perfect example of learning from your mistakes.  Not only from the standpoint of not being an absentee father, but also from inexperience raising a brat, to putting in the time to correct the behavior once told how. 

[elang4]

I agree. I really didn't like Chris but he did learn from his mistakes as a parent and was there for Gigi. I'll give him that. I just don't like him. 

[dubbel zout]

24 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

He stuck it out, when her mother abandoned her. He then gave said mother a second chance and tried to help foster a relationship between those two.

I forgot about that. Okay, I retract my statement that Christopher was a deadbeat dad to Gigi.

[Kohola3]

Quote

Wanting to send her to Paris with the nanny was an error in judgment, but other than that, I don't see any evidence that he was terrible.

Parking her in front of the TV as a toddler?  Never saying "no" and thinking that drawing on the floor meant she was "spirited".  Dismissing the screaming harpy behavior?  Not exactly Parent of the Year material.

[junienmomo]

So what happened to Lorelai and Christopher that would have caused them to retain so much "wastrel or angry teenager" persona as adults?

I can fanwank Lorelai having a teenage phase when Rory's old enough for her to date, but to still be doing it a decade and a half later tells me there's something psychologically wrong there. And Christopher had a normal teenage life. There was no reason for him not to have grown up. 

Or was it simply due to their parents?

[Melancholy]

I think it was a mixed bag with Chris and Gigi. There are good indicators. He stuck around after Sherri abandoned Gigi and he *was* her custodial parent. He didn't make any attempt to fob Gigi off on Sherri. He bonded with Gigi as he didn't with Rory. ("She's perfect.") There are also terrible indicators. Trying to send Gigi to Paris with the nanny *was* a terrible error in judgment and pretty out of character for any custodial parent who gets what it is to be a 4 year old. He couldn't discipline Gigi at all and he let her behavior problems fester and get worse to the point that it jeopardized her admissions for pre-school and would continue to negatively affect Gigi until Lorelai stepped in. While he was with Lorelai in S7 and we spent more time with him, it really seemed like his mother was a constant presence to watch Gigi so he got to do the fun parts of parenting but they didn't really creep into his dating life. The Revival indicates a little than Gigi went "Parisian" which could mean that Gigi spends most of her time in France. 

IMO, Chris did try to do better with Gigi and he deserves credit for that. He doesn't want to be a bad guy. That's always been his sympathetic quality. However, he is fundamentally weak and IMO, cold and self-centered. I also think he's not that bright or passionate. Even when he has genuinely good intentions with Gigi, Lorelai, or Rory, the result is something pathetic and sour. 

Edited March 4, 2017 by Melancholy

[Guest]

I think there is a big difference between being an overly indulgent parent to a preschooler (especially when overcompensating for a parent's absence) and being an outright terrible parent. Especially when raised by truly terrible parents (aka Straub), it's a hard line to walk between overly permissive and not wanting to be too hard on your child. Not saying it's great parenting, but I think he was truly doing his best at that point.

And I'm certainly not going to fault a single parent for using the grandparent babysitting service when needed. Single parenting is exhausting.

[Melancholy]

Right, I'm not saying that Chris was SO TERRIBLE to not discipline Gigi. I agree that Chris was trying. I said that Chris tries with Gigi and he has good intentions. However, it's still a bad indicator that makes me stop short at saying he was a *good* parent to Gigi or that he learned from his mistakes. I think it's part and parcel of how he's a limited person from his lack of intelligence and strength that ensures that even when he's trying, he's not exactly succeeding. 

I probably wouldn't knock on Chris for the S7 plot device of his mother making sure Gigi never gets in the way of dating-time if I wasn't still holding a grudge over Rory. However, the fact that he *was* a neglectful parent to one of the two main protagonists does make me side-eye and squint at his parenting actions more.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Melancholy

[FictionLover]

On ‎2‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 11:26 PM, Melancholy said:

One of my favorite things about the Revival is that Lorelai was such a partner to Luke as she hadn't been in the series. There were scenes of her instinctively helping to clean up the diner like it was her habit, trying to help set up dinners, trying to mediate Liz/TJ's latest screw-up, offering her last slice of pizza to Luke. It subtly but powerfully signaled that Lorelai had really evolved by the Revival. I think Lorelai genuinely wanted to be a helpful partner to Luke in the series because she loved him. However, Series!Lorelai had a pretty immature attitude to life that her best way of helping was to give some magical speech that would show everyone the right path forward. It could work. We didn't see her work her way up as a maid; we saw her have a successful career based on being a *manager* who came up with the big vision and delegated to the actual cook, maids, kitchen staff, concierge, etc. and focused more on the big picture and embodying that ideal big picture more than actual details. However, it could be very annoying in her personal life, especially with Luke and her parents, where Lorelai conflated bossiness with support/kindness. 

I really liked this part of LL relationship too.  I mentioned on another thread there was treatment of Luke I didn't like.  Her tuning him out with music when she went into Rory's bedroom, which seemed like she did a lot with his comment "don't turn that on".  I hated how she took off on him to help Rory with her volunteer job when he was helping in the kitchen at the Dragonfly.  But I didn't like how Luke snapped at her about helping with April either.

I was thinking that when Lorelai and Luke were tag teaming each other with Liz and TJ, it didn't seem like Luke was trying to keep his crazy family away from her.  Another continuity problem, ASP? 

[shron17]

1 hour ago, deaja said:

Not saying it's great parenting, but I think he was truly doing his best at that point.

I would say there's a difference between trying to be a good parent and trying to do what's best for your child.  Though it's not surprising Chris didn't know how to do this he could have asked for help from nannies and teachers, counseling, classes or books instead of just Lorelai.  Spending more time alone with Gigi getting to know her would have helped too.  I don't think it would ever be best to send or take a 4-year-old all the way to Paris to leave her for months with the parent who left her.  Chris should have invited Sherry to come for the time she had off work to get to know Gigi again before sending her away from her home.

That said, I agree Chris isn't necessarily a bad person, just weak.  He does care but can't be troubled to consistently take action to show that.  My UO is that I never fully bought that he loved Lorelai because of his lack of consistency in showing her that through the years both before and after the series started.

1 hour ago, FictionLover said:

I mentioned on another thread there was treatment of Luke I didn't like.  Her tuning him out with music when she went into Rory's bedroom, which seemed like she did a lot with his comment "don't turn that on".  I hated how she took off on him to help Rory with her volunteer job when he was helping in the kitchen at the Dragonfly.  But I didn't like how Luke snapped at her about helping with April either.

I was thinking that when Lorelai and Luke were tag teaming each other with Liz and TJ, it didn't seem like Luke was trying to keep his crazy family away from her.  Another continuity problem, ASP? 

I thought the music scene was just a little bit showing Lorelai and Rory being teenagers forcing Luke to play a parental role. 

As for the tag teaming with Liz and TJ, Lorelai was calling the shots in that scene by telling Luke to get wine and taking the phone from him.  When Luke took action to fix the problem it was Jess he called, not Lorelai.  Likewise, when Luke "snapped" at Lorelai about April it was because she was trying to call the shots regarding what Luke was paying for April and whether he could afford it.  If she just wanted to help, she would have skipped the nosy questions and simply said if you ever need help with the money, let me know. 

It was a revelation for me when Luke said she set up how their lives were.  That is completely in character for Lorelai through all of her relationships.  In Luke's case, I think he was okay with it unless she interfered in his family relationships.

ETA The scene at the Dragonfly showed Lorelai still put Rory first over her business and relationship.  The later scene when Luke rushed out of their fight to get the muffins for the Dragonfly, something that was Lorelai's fault for treating the fill-in chefs so badly, was a nice bookend.

Edited March 4, 2017 by shron17