One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[junienmomo]

17 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I felt like it was more that she was saying she didn't know what to do with them now that they were together. 

She proved that time and again with pretty much all of the significant permanent couples: Sookie, Emily, Mrs. Kim, Shira, Lane. If they didn't get ultra-lame plots like marijuana or sex-on-a-beach twins, they disappeared from sight a la Mr. Kim.

One weird exception seems to have been Babette and Morey. Haven't figured that one out yet. Of course, their character as a couple didn't develop. It was always solid.

[JAYJAY1979]

I figured that Luke and Lorelei were thrown together suddenlt because the show didnt get renewed for a season 8.  you can tell in the last few episodes that things seem to be resolving suddenly.

I think luke and lorelei apoligizing at the hay maze was the first of many steps of getting them back together that peobably would have been done slowly in season 8...imho

[Melancholy]

21 minutes ago, JAYJAY1979 said:

I figured that Luke and Lorelei were thrown together suddenlt because the show didnt get renewed for a season 8.  you can tell in the last few episodes that things seem to be resolving suddenly.

I think luke and lorelei apoligizing at the hay maze was the first of many steps of getting them back together that peobably would have been done slowly in season 8...imho

That could be the case. I watched the show on ABC Family instead of in its original airing and I never learned about the backstage politics. I could really see that the show was abruptly cancelled. Does anyone know if that was the case? 

[txhorns79]

Quote

That could be the case. I watched the show on ABC Family instead of in its original airing and I never learned about the backstage politics. I could really see that the show was abruptly cancelled. Does anyone know if that was the case? 

My understanding is that there were negotiations until the last minute to bring the show back for a shortened eighth season, but for whatever reason, perhaps costs, the negotiations failed and the show was cancelled.  The series finale was written so it could act as either a season or series finale. 

[TimetravellingBW]

6 hours ago, Melancholy said:

I see that value. However, I think it created bigger problems where Lorelai came off so badly on the final yardline (and far behind most of the other characters who demonstrated growth in S7 like Rory, Logan, Luke, Richard, Emily, Zack, Lane, Mrs. Kim, and Paris) and the final ending where she ended up with Luke felt so slap-dash and hurried. I thought one of the few heartwarming parts of S6 is that Lorelai didn't NEED to have a failed marriage with Christopher to get her parents to give up on that dream. I think in the revival, the dynamic between Lorelai/Luke and Emily (since Richard is dead) will just be more of You've Been Gilmored where Lorelai's parents accept Luke as part of the family but just always with overbearing, classist overtones that will never be exorcised.

4 hours ago, hippielamb said:

Chris has always been the road not taken for Lorelai. Something always prevents them from being together. I think it was important for Lorelai's story that she be with Chris for awhile, otherwise he would always be the what if guy. Also, from his first introduction on te show they have had the marriage thing be an issue. I am biased obviously because I like seeing them together but I do think it was done for Lorelai to let go of her "whole package" dream. 

7 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I appreciated that they had Chris and Lorelai get married.  The series repeatedly held Chris out as a real possibility for Lorelai, and as such a source of friction between Lorelai and her parents.  This plotline served to resolve a lot of the shipping and propel the plot forward.  We saw that Chris and Lorelai did not make a great couple.  Emily and Richard got to see that Chris wasn't all that great with their daughter, and really, really was not able to offer support during a crisis (i.e. Richard's second heart attack.)  I thought that plotline was very beneficial in that sense.   

I appreciate that DR played out Lorelai/Chris because Chris was always a dangling "What If" for Lorelai. Yes, it would have made more sense for ASP to explore that path way back in Season 3 or 4, pre-Luke but she always wanted to keep Chris hanging around for endless potential drama, so it was good DR actually addressed Chris/Lorelai permanently.

But imo them getting married was unnecessary. The same storyline of them realizing they didn't work together, Lorelai acknowledging she didn't love him enough and Chris not fitting in with Stars Hollow could have worked if they just moved in together or got engaged. (Admittedly that might have been too much after two failed Lorelai engagements, but they could have contrasted how excited she was to marry Luke with a reluctance to do any wedding preparations with Chris). Because L/C getting married in such a ridiculously, rushed period made both of them look like morons and Lorelai seem horribly callous and flighty. For me the whole rush job marriage-and-divorce took Lorelai's dysfunction with relationships and selfishness too far, and cheapened the inevitable Luke/Lorelai reunion. I was left wondering how Luke could really trust or believe Lorelai loved him if she slept with another guy hours after ambiguously-dumping him and then married the guy mere months after they were engaged? 

Edited November 7, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[AnJen]

I have only had a chance to read about 2 pages of this thread, so apologies if this has been covered before, but:

While I love the show and love the characters, I notice more flaws with every re-watch. This doesn't take anything away from my enjoyment of the show, but as I have matured, my view of the characters and situations on the show has changed, and I find myself feeling more frustrated with Lorelai's character in particular. I absolutely adore her - but she is probably the most flawed character in the show. She's childish and selfish and always thinks she's justified in whatever she does; she rarely apologizes for her behavior and honestly causes the majority of her own problems.

Lorelai's treatment of Jess is one of my biggest pet peeves in the show; she knows about his history from Luke, so she knows that his dad abandoned them, that his mom has had a revolving door of crap boyfriends for most of his life, and that she routinely ships Jess off to live with a relative when she doesn't feel like dealing with him. There's plenty of reason for Jess to act out and most adults would understand why, but Lorelai immediately writes him off. It's especially frustrating because she considers herself such an expert on being a misunderstood teenager with horrible parents, and yet when confronted with someone she should be able to empathize with and support, she immediately writes him off. What's worse is that she never allows him to redeem himself in her eyes; he treats her respectfully after that first meeting, and after being yelled at by Rory he softens towards Luke, but Lorelai is permanently set against him and often tries to turn others against him as well.

I think it also further highlights that despite Lorelai not feeling like she fit with her parents and not being happy with them, they did very little to deserve the level of vitriol she has for them - they were overbearing, yes. But they loved her and wanted the best for her. Here, she's confronted with someone with actual crappy parents, and she not only has zero sympathy for him, but she actually compares her situation to his own while she criticizes him for his behavior. 

[junienmomo]

9 minutes ago, AnJen said:

she rarely apologizes for her behavior and honestly causes the majority of her own problems.

Nicely said. I hadn't thought much about her causing her own problems, but that's the main thing I dislike about her. She sets up a situation, and when others don't meet exactly her expectations she flounces or presses a nuclear button, like running away from her parents. But it's never a large percentage of her own fault. 

I would, however, call her parents actually crappy too. Their demands of marriage and behavior were worthy of Lorelai leaving the house and not speaking to them. And she went into the Chilton contract willingly, so they didn't deserve as much sniping as they got from her, but they certainly deserved some. 

People talk about Lorelai never growing up, and I think it's validated in her behavior through all seasons, but honestly, Emily seems to not have given up the role of "mother to a rebellious teenager" until maybe in season seven.

[chessiegal]

I always saw Lorelai as purposely being written as flawed. What's interesting about someone as perfect in an entertainment show? Nothing. Quirky, fun, interesting - yes. But perfect? I don't think ASP ever intended that. She wanted a flawed character that would hold our interest, and imo she succeeded.

[txhorns79]

Quote

People talk about Lorelai never growing up, and I think it's validated in her behavior through all seasons, but honestly, Emily seems to not have given up the role of "mother to a rebellious teenager" until maybe in season seven.

I think that might be because Lorelai still acted like she was a rebellious teenager half the time when it came to dealing with her mother.  I'm still not over how she managed to make a comparison between her mother and Pol Pot in an interview that was nominally about promoting the Dragonfly! 

[Bumblebee Tights]

9 hours ago, junienmomo said:

People talk about Lorelai never growing up, and I think it's validated in her behavior through all seasons, but honestly, Emily seems to not have given up the role of "mother to a rebellious teenager" until maybe in season seven.

I agree, they were each very stuck in their roles in regards to one another. Since we're talking about UOs, I'll add that another one of mine is that the whole "one step forward two steps back" dance that Emily and Lorelai have throughout the series works for me. Maybe it's just because I have both seen and experienced similar parent child relationships, but for me it just rings really true.  While it was abundantly clear that Emily loved Lorelai pretty fiercely, and that Lorelai not only loved her mother as well when it came down to it, but actually was  more similar to Emily than she wanted to believe, the two women had such fundamental differences in their belief systems about pretty much everything, (not to mention that they were both stubborn, opinionated, and fairly emotion-ruled people),  that they were always going to butt heads.  It was just the nature of their relationship.  I understand it was frustrating to watch them tread the same ground over and over,  but sometimes life is just like that. Progress isn't always linear. I do think they made progress though..I mean, Lorelai of season 1 would have NEVER considered going to Richard and Emily when Rory wanted to drop out of Yale .

There's also a scene in season 1, after Rory's dance, where a panicked Emily is screaming at Lorelai that Rory's going to get pregnant, and that "You're going to lose her like I lost you"! Lorelai basically yells back that that will never happen, because of how she's raising Rory differently, and ends up kicking Emily out.

Flash forward to season 6, when Lorelai finds Emily attempting to time share a plane after Rory moves out. Emily says to Lorelai that "I lost her like I lost you, it feels remarkably similar".  Lorelai goes on to explain to her why it's different, and ends with "...and you didn't lose me." Then she walks away, and we get to see Emily react by breaking into tears. That scene was so moving to me because of the juxtaposition with the S1 scene. I don't think it could be denied that that is progress.

Whether or not Richard and Emily deserved Lorelai 's vitriol is a stickier issue.  I don't doubt that Richard and Emily always did what they thought was the right thing when it came to Lorelai, and that they tried their best to give her everything they thought she needed. Lorelai herself acknowledges this more than once during the course of the series. Did Lorelai have it better than Jess? Definitely. It's just, I think, there was so much dissonance between what they thought of as the "right" way to raise Lorelai, and what Lorelai actually needed. I think we can see some things that illustrate this is S1.  There are 2 main scenes that stick out to me.

The first is in Rory's Birthday Parties. After Rory has refused to thank the guests at the party Emily throws for her, and they have some intense words, Rory invites her grandparents to the party in Stars Hollow the next night. Emily declines, Lorelai implores her to come, and Emily says that she already had a party for her granddaughter, and lists all the work she put into it. Lorelai says "Well that's not what she needed mom.  What she needed was for her grandparents to come to her birthday party".

Then there's a scene in Emily In Wonderland where Emily is upset after seeing the potting shed. Lorelai says to Emily that " I was very young, I was very unhappy, and I needed to be somewhere that wasn't here".  I think this is just the truth, and we can see in the first example why. I think Lorelai genuinely didn't feel understood or accepted by her parents, and probably often felt punished just for being herself. While comparatively this may seem minor, that can be some rough stuff for a young person to deal with. So I think, while Richard and Emily by no means deserve to be villainized, Lorelai has legitimate reasons for reacting to them the way she does.

As far as Jess... while I used to find it frustrating that she didn't accept him, on rewatching I tend to give Lorelai a pass, just because she's not viewing him through the lens of " another human being who I can connect with and relate to", but " kid who's trying to date my daughter, and might hurt her", and so I think it's ( relatively) understandable that she would have the reservations that she did.

[JaggedLilPill]

33 minutes ago, Bumblebee Tights said:

I agree, they were each very stuck in their roles in regards to one another. Since we're talking about UOs, I'll add that another one of mine is that the whole "one step forward two steps back" dance that Emily and Lorelai have throughout the series works for me. Maybe it's just because I have both seen and experienced similar parent child relationships, but for me it just rings really true.  While it was abundantly clear that Emily loved Lorelai pretty fiercely, and that Lorelai not only loved her mother as well when it came down to it, but actually was  more similar to Emily than she wanted to believe, the two women had such fundamental differences in their belief systems about pretty much everything, (not to mention that they were both stubborn, opinionated, and fairly emotion-ruled people),  that they were always going to butt heads.  It was just the nature of their relationship.  I understand it was frustrating to watch them tread the same ground over and over,  but sometimes life is just like that. Progress isn't always linear. I do think they made progress though..I mean, Lorelai of season 1 would have NEVER considered going to Richard and Emily when Rory wanted to drop out of Yale .

There's also a scene in season 1, after Rory's dance, where a panicked Emily is screaming at Lorelai that Rory's going to get pregnant, and that "You're going to lose her like I lost you"! Lorelai basically yells back that that will never happen, because of how she's raising Rory differently, and ends up kicking Emily out.

Flash forward to season 6, when Lorelai finds Emily attempting to time share a plane after Rory moves out. Emily says to Lorelai that "I lost her like I lost you, it feels remarkably similar".  Lorelai goes on to explain to her why it's different, and ends with "...and you didn't lose me." Then she walks away, and we get to see Emily react by breaking into tears. That scene was so moving to me because of the juxtaposition with the S1 scene. I don't think it could be denied that that is progress.

Whether or not Richard and Emily deserved Lorelai 's vitriol is a stickier issue.  I don't doubt that Richard and Emily always did what they thought was the right thing when it came to Lorelai, and that they tried their best to give her everything they thought she needed. Lorelai herself acknowledges this more than once during the course of the series. Did Lorelai have it better than Jess? Definitely. It's just, I think, there was so much dissonance between what they thought of as the "right" way to raise Lorelai, and what Lorelai actually needed. I think we can see some things that illustrate this is S1.  There are 2 main scenes that stick out to me.

The first is in Rory's Birthday Parties. After Rory has refused to thank the guests at the party Emily throws for her, and they have some intense words, Rory invites her grandparents to the party in Stars Hollow the next night. Emily declines, Lorelai implores her to come, and Emily says that she already had a party for her granddaughter, and lists all the work she put into it. Lorelai says "Well that's not what she needed mom.  What she needed was for her grandparents to come to her birthday party".

Then there's a scene in Emily In Wonderland where Emily is upset after seeing the potting shed. Lorelai says to Emily that " I was very young, I was very unhappy, and I needed to be somewhere that wasn't here".  I think this is just the truth, and we can see in the first example why. I think Lorelai genuinely didn't feel understood or accepted by her parents, and probably often felt punished just for being herself. While comparatively this may seem minor, that can be some rough stuff for a young person to deal with. So I think, while Richard and Emily by no means deserve to be villainized, Lorelai has legitimate reasons for reacting to them the way she does.

As far as Jess... while I used to find it frustrating that she didn't accept him, on rewatching I tend to give Lorelai a pass, just because she's not viewing him through the lens of " another human being who I can connect with and relate to", but " kid who's trying to date my daughter, and might hurt her", and so I think it's ( relatively) understandable that she would have the reservations that she did.

ITA with this.

There are times when Lorelai is too harsh with Emily (and Richard by extension) but I find some of her gripes understandable for sure. in Rory's Dance Emily point blank tells Lorelai that Rory is "going to ruin everything just like you ruined everything." 

I get that their emotions were running on high and they were worried about Rory and their concern became a different type of concern when they found out Rory had spent the night with Dean, but telling your kid that they basically ruined everything is pretty crappy. Especially with the way Richard and Emily like to harp on the fact that Chris was "willing to do the right thing," I could see Lorelai not wanting to hear that anymore and leaving. Now, how often they told her that is anyone's guess, but it is quite the overreaction to the situation. Look, nobody wants their teenage daughter getting pregnant, but IMO, there's worse things - much worse things - that could happen. And again, I know this is being said in the heat of the moment by Emily and of course she loves Rory so in essence does she think Lorelai honestly ruined everything? I doubt it. But it's still a conscious decision she makes to say that and that does not help the situation.

Similarly when Emily finds out that Lorelai and Max are engaged. I think my UO is that I don't know wtf Sookie was thinking. I know she wanted to throw Lorelai a surprise engagement party, but uh, maybe somehow casually ask Lorelai how her parents took the news? I mean, knowing they have a strained relationship and that it takes Lorelai time to discuss things with her parents, while the intentions were good, it was definitely not the smartest move on Sookie's part. But I digress. That's another situation where Emily could have taken the high road and said "You know Lorelai, I found out [make up a lie here] and I was hurt that you didn't tell me before you told X, Y, and Z," instead of having an extremely cold reaction to which Lorelai thinks Emily doesn't care.

I'm not blaming it all on Emily because it's just how their relationship is at that point. Each woman gives as good as she gets and they are stuck in this pattern of evolving in a positive way and then regressing significantly. Lorelai absolutely has accountability in the relationship between her and her parents. I think they each have valid points at different times. 

[Minneapple]

On 11/6/2016 at 3:22 PM, Melancholy said:

That could be the case. I watched the show on ABC Family instead of in its original airing and I never learned about the backstage politics. I could really see that the show was abruptly cancelled. Does anyone know if that was the case? 

It wasn't really "canceled" per se. They were on the seventh season and in negotiations with Lauren and Alexis for a season 8. But they couldn't come to terms with Lauren and Alexis so it was a no go on season 8.

12 hours ago, junienmomo said:

I would, however, call her parents actually crappy too. Their demands of marriage and behavior were worthy of Lorelai leaving the house and not speaking to them. And she went into the Chilton contract willingly, so they didn't deserve as much sniping as they got from her, but they certainly deserved some. 

People talk about Lorelai never growing up, and I think it's validated in her behavior through all seasons, but honestly, Emily seems to not have given up the role of "mother to a rebellious teenager" until maybe in season seven.

I agree with this. Emily seemed determined to force Lorelai to be someone she didn't want to be. Emily did horrid things like going to Christopher and telling him to show up at the vow renewal because he could still have a chance with Lorelai. At the same time Lorelai did things like hiding her engagement from Emily. But It was moments like when Lorelai went over to her parents' house with the DVD player in Dear Emily and Richard, or when Emily had a professional cameraman come to Lorelai's graduation, that made me love them. 

After (many many) rewatches it is actually the Lorelai/Emily relationship I love most in the show. Maybe because it sort of reminds me of my own relationship with my mother (though not quite as contentious). I think I am more Lorelai/Rory with my own daughter. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

As far as Jess... while I used to find it frustrating that she didn't accept him, on rewatching I tend to give Lorelai a pass, just because she's not viewing him through the lens of " another human being who I can connect with and relate to", but " kid who's trying to date my daughter, and might hurt her", and so I think it's ( relatively) understandable that she would have the reservations that she did.

I give her a pass in the sense that this is not her kid, he has significant issues and it isn't on Lorelai to solve them or serve as some kind of outlet for him.  However, I do think it goes to show that for all of Lorelai's vaunted parenting skills, she basically wrote off Jess, a kid she knew had a very difficult home life, after one bad encounter.  She was just as clueless in dealing with him as she insinuated Luke was going to be.   

[Melancholy]

6 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I give her a pass in the sense that this is not her kid, he has significant issues and it isn't on Lorelai to solve them or serve as some kind of outlet for him.  However, I do think it goes to show that for all of Lorelai's vaunted parenting skills, she basically wrote off Jess, a kid she knew had a very difficult home life, after one bad encounter.  She was just as clueless in dealing with him as she insinuated Luke was going to be.   

Right. Lorelai was so superior that Luke didn't know how to handle things and he could take advance from her, the Teenage Rearing Whisperer. However, Lorelai's breathy, self-righteous, grating speech diminishing Jess's issues and saying that they'll all be resolved now that Jess in Stars Hallow (a town that's certainly not for everyone) and living with Luke (a prickly, difficult, tactless guy much as I love him and living in close quarters in his bedroom and working in his diner) showed zero game and wisdom on how to appeal to a troubled kid. And then, Lorelai just gave up on him. 

Moreover, Lorelai didn't just keep distance. She was outwardly hostile and refused to let up like she was in a feud with Jess and forgot who was the adult and who was the child. Going after Jess like she wanted to beat him up after the accident, and then, laying into Luke. Being all "He's gone! I win! Again!" at Jess being run out of town. Mocking Jess for having a self-help book, even though you'd think she would have welcomed him working on his interpersonal issues. Even INTO S5, taking some time to rib Luke about Dean changed the porch light but Jess didn't. 

[katha]

Given Lorelai's overprotective tendencies towards Rory, I didn't think she was that bad towards Jess. She certainly stepped over the line a few times, but mostly she didn't try to ruin things for him with Luke and Rory, the two people he cared about. In fact, sometimes she even bit her tongue and kept her negative opinions to herself and tried to be supportive of their relationships with Jess. Since Lorelai isn't always a fountain of rationality and maturity, I thought that was a considerable achievement, particularly since she hated Jess so much. So I can't knock her too much on that front.

What it did show, apart from her anxieties about Rory, is that she's rather self-involved and perhaps not always that good with empathy. She's great with sympathy and kindness, often going out of her way even for people who have hurt her. But that was a case where IMO she just didn't understand that the situation wasn't the same as hers with her parents and therefore Jess' reaction was going to be different from hers. That having a neglectful, irresponsible parent who couldn't be bothered is different from smothering parents, that having a lack of stability and lack of people who care about you and believe in you as a child and young person will do a different kind of damage than her experiences with Emily and Richard. I think Rory, for all her cluelessness at times, did sort of instinctively understand where Jess' hurt was coming from and that he was acting out because of that and not because of some inherent maliciousness. Luke grew to understand that as well, I think. And that's why both managed to get through to him to some degree.

Tied to that, I also think that Jess OTOH had a great deal of empathy and was generally very perceptive about people, even as a kid. I think he had Lorelai's number. He understood what was going on between Lorelai and Luke, he understood what was going on with Rory to some degree. Of course, he wasn't always so hot on the kindness and sympathy front LOL. So sometimes he used those insights to provoke and manipulate people, the little punk. (-;

[Melancholy]

I speculated that Rory understood Jess's pain better than others because of Christopher. Rory knows what its like to be abandoned by a parent and to feel like you're not a parent's top priority. It's painful for Rory even with Lorelai as a loving, devoted mother. So I think Rory could understand the pain of Jess having no one. I think Rory had similar empathy for Paris. 

Lorelai seems out of touch with how Christopher deeply hurt Rory so you can imagine how she just wouldn't get how selfish, neglectful parents would hurt Jess. 

I'm not sure Luke had as much empathy/understanding as lots and lots of sympathy and commitment for Jess to have a better life. Even into S4, he wanted Jess to relate to Liz as he did. A little sister figure to be protected and coddled and rewarded at the first sign of improvement. 

[Taryn74]

1 hour ago, katha said:

Tied to that, I also think that Jess OTOH had a great deal of empathy and was generally very perceptive about people, even as a kid. I think he had Lorelai's number. He understood what was going on between Lorelai and Luke, he understood what was going on with Rory to some degree. Of course, he wasn't always so hot on the kindness and sympathy front LOL. So sometimes he used those insights to provoke and manipulate people, the little punk. (-;

 

Love that insight!

[timimouse]

5 hours ago, katha said:

Tied to that, I also think that Jess OTOH had a great deal of empathy and was generally very perceptive about people, even as a kid. I think he had Lorelai's number. He understood what was going on between Lorelai and Luke, he understood what was going on with Rory to some degree. Of course, he wasn't always so hot on the kindness and sympathy front LOL. So sometimes he used those insights to provoke and manipulate people, the little punk. (-;

I'm going to second @Taryn74, I think that insight is brilliant. You just made me dislike Jess a little less! :)

[andromeda331]

6 hours ago, Melancholy said:

Lorelai seems out of touch with how Christopher deeply hurt Rory so you can imagine how she just wouldn't get how selfish, neglectful parents would hurt Jess. 

I think Lorelai had a good idea how Rory felt. In Christopher Returns, she was warning Rory that Christopher wasn't going to stay and in Haunted Leg she tries to explain to Christopher how Rory feels when he was blaming Lorelai for Rory not wanting to talk to him.  She was the one who had to explain to Rory that Christopher went back to Sherry.  Given how they give him fifty-fifty odds of showing up she probably had to do that a lot with Rory regarding her father her entire life. But they don't use any of it during season two or three with Luke or Jess. Like when Luke explains Liz never called about Jess's winter vacation and that he lied that he wanted Jess to stay with him, Lorelai bursts his bubble that Jess knew it was a lie.  That could have been a great moment to bond with Luke on what its like to have the other parent bail or flake out and have to be the one to explain to their kid/nephew. They have parts that Lorelai could and should be able to relate to but then don't use it. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

Lorelai seems out of touch with how Christopher deeply hurt Rory so you can imagine how she just wouldn't get how selfish, neglectful parents would hurt Jess. 

I think Lorelai knew how Christopher could hurt Rory.  In terms of Jess, I think she let her dislike of Jess cloud everything else.  Or maybe she just disliked him because he was a threat to her...err...Rory's relationship with Dean.   

[hippielamb]

On Monday, November 07, 2016 at 9:53 PM, Bumblebee Tights said:

Then there's a scene in Emily In Wonderland where Emily is upset after seeing the potting shed. Lorelai says to Emily that " I was very young, I was very unhappy, and I needed to be somewhere that wasn't here".  I think this is just the truth, and we can see in the first example why. I think Lorelai genuinely didn't feel understood or accepted by her parents, and probably often felt punished just for being herself. While comparatively this may seem minor, that can be some rough stuff for a young person to deal with. So I think, while Richard and Emily by no means deserve to be villainized, Lorelai has legitimate reasons for reacting to them the way she does.

As far as Jess... while I used to find it frustrating that she didn't accept him, on rewatching I tend to give Lorelai a pass, just because she's not viewing him through the lens of " another human being who I can connect with and relate to", but " kid who's trying to date my daughter, and might hurt her", and so I think it's ( relatively) understandable that she would have the reservations that she did.

Exactly. It is easy to forget once we are adults how difficult it was to feel not accepted or understood by our family when we were teens. I like that Lorelai admits how young and messed up she was. Emily can't hear it because she still had all that pain from Lorelai leaving. 

I think if Lorelai had met Jess outside of him insulting her and having Rory in his sights, she would have liked him. It's just that she's in protective mommy mode whenever he is around. Which makes sense to me. 

 

On Monday, November 07, 2016 at 10:39 PM, JaggedLilPill said:

ITA with this.

There are times when Lorelai is too harsh with Emily (and Richard by extension) but I find some of her gripes understandable for sure. in Rory's Dance Emily point blank tells Lorelai that Rory is "going to ruin everything just like you ruined everything." 

Ugh that line breaks my heart every time, and it's part of why it took me so long to empathize with Emily. Obviously having Rory and leaving home ruined their big plans for Lorelai's college and future, but throwing in her face like that was cruel. I do like after their big fight over Lorelai"s engagement to Max that she tells Emily how much her words hurt. It's too bad that the behaviour didnt change after that confession but that's how it goes sometimes in dysfunctional relationships. 

[Melancholy]

On November 8, 2016 at 4:05 PM, andromeda331 said:

I think Lorelai had a good idea how Rory felt. In Christopher Returns, she was warning Rory that Christopher wasn't going to stay and in Haunted Leg she tries to explain to Christopher how Rory feels when he was blaming Lorelai for Rory not wanting to talk to him.  She was the one who had to explain to Rory that Christopher went back to Sherry.  Given how they give him fifty-fifty odds of showing up she probably had to do that a lot with Rory regarding her father her entire life. But they don't use any of it during season two or three with Luke or Jess. Like when Luke explains Liz never called about Jess's winter vacation and that he lied that he wanted Jess to stay with him, Lorelai bursts his bubble that Jess knew it was a lie.  That could have been a great moment to bond with Luke on what its like to have the other parent bail or flake out and have to be the one to explain to their kid/nephew. They have parts that Lorelai could and should be able to relate to but then don't use it. 

I don't think Lorelai understood the depth of the pain Christopher caused Rory. Lorelai understood abstractly that Christopher's absence wasn't good for Rory. However, at the end of the day, Lorelai had a pretty pat "It'll all work out" attitude with Chris/Rory. Lorelai was caught off guard in S5 at how Rory would be angry enough at Christopher that Rory would tell him to stay away. Lorelai didn't anticipate Rory's anger at Lorelai for sleeping with Christopher at the end of S6 because Rory comes from a "My relationship with my father is tenuous and delicate and a one night stand can disturb it!" Lorelai comprehended the basic outlines on Chris's absence was bad for Rory but she lacked empathy on how Rory actually felt about it. Which Lorelai needed to lack in order to keep taking Chris as a romantic interest. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

Lorelai was caught off guard in S5 at how Rory would be angry enough at Christopher that Rory would tell him to stay away.

I thought Rory told Christopher to stay away because she feared that he would wreck Lorelai's relationship with Luke, not because she was angry with him.  My recollection was that Rory only got angry when she mistakenly thought that Christopher was ignoring her request.  It was that point Lorelai was caught off guard because she didn't understand what was happening.  We may be referencing different parts in the season though. 

Quote

Ugh that line breaks my heart every time, and it's part of why it took me so long to empathize with Emily. Obviously having Rory and leaving home ruined their big plans for Lorelai's college and future, but throwing in her face like that was cruel. 

I give Emily something of a pass because it was coming right after a huge moment of panic over Rory having stayed out all night.  What she said to Lorelai was inappropriate and wrong, but I don't think she was intentionally being cruel for the sake of being cruel. 

Edited November 10, 2016 by txhorns79

[Kohola3]

I think Emily was cruel on a number of occasions with her comments.  Consciously or unconsciously she had no filters when it came to throwing Lorelai's transgressions in her face.  Even those that weren't really her fault such as when Emily said " I wanna know why. I want a reason. I don’t want any of this ‘just because’ and ‘it just didn’t work out’ nonsense. I want a solid, adult reason why the father of my granddaughter and her mother can’t seem to put a family together."  Her expectation, as always. was that it was something Lorelai had done wrong - again.

[timimouse]

My most recent UO is that I have no desire to see Dean in the revival. I think his last appearances painted that character in such a bad light that I had no desire to ever see him again! (Sam Winchester, yes. Dean Forster, no.)

While I've never been his biggest fan, I understood his role as Rory's first boyfriend. I even felt sorry for him when she was jerking him around with Jess. I didn't disagree with him having a go at Rory for not wishing him well in his marriage. But then they massacred the "good guy" that they painted from the get-go. Not every man lies and cheats. I don't think the "Rory looses her virginity to a married guy" arc had to be done with Dean. And then to top it off, he became surly and bitter about it. I wish they had just let him be in the revival. (Not that I'm keen on any of her exes but he's really the bottom of the crop for me)

[Crs97]

My UO is that I hate the Crap Shack.  I cannot imagine my child's room being downstairs off the kitchen while I am upstairs.  It's a dumb design to begin with; all those stairs for one room?  If I am alone with my kids at night, I need to be on the same floor as they are.  I don't like the idea of an intruder slipping past me.  I know it's Stars Hollow, but I can't believe Lorelei never thought of that.  And where is Rory's bathroom?  It bugs me every time.

[chessiegal]

14 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

My UO is that I hate the Crap Shack.  I cannot imagine my child's room being downstairs off the kitchen while I am upstairs.  It's a dumb design to begin with; all those stairs for one room?  If I am alone with my kids at night, I need to be on the same floor as they are.  I don't like the idea of an intruder slipping past me.  I know it's Stars Hollow, but I can't believe Lorelei never thought of that.  And where is Rory's bathroom?  It bugs me every time.

Well, in the 1st season there was a bathroom on the first floor. It later turned into a closet.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I cannot imagine my child's room being downstairs off the kitchen while I am upstairs.  It's a dumb design to begin with; all those stairs for one room?  If I am alone with my kids at night, I need to be on the same floor as they are.  I don't like the idea of an intruder slipping past me.  I know it's Stars Hollow, but I can't believe Lorelei never thought of that.

I agree that the layout of the Crap Shack is strange, and it makes little sense that an upstairs that appears fairly large from the outside consists solely of one bedroom and one bathroom.  Though in terms of an intruder, I think if the person is determined enough, it's not going to matter if you are in the room next to your kid or upstairs from them.   

[Bumblebee Tights]

3 hours ago, timimouse said:

 (Not that I'm keen on any of her exes but he's really the bottom of the crop for me)

See, I'm the opposite..I think my UO is that I don't really have an "ugh" reaction to any of Rory's guys. Dean IS my least favorite as well, just in terms of which relationship I think is the most interesting to watch/provides the most growth for Rory/has the most potential to be a long term thing, but I don't dislike him, and there are times (ok, mostly in season 1), when I actually quite like him. My only real issue with Dean is that as the seasons go on, we watch him become more and more traditional/conservative/"all American high school guy", to the point where it's sometimes difficult for me to suspend my disbelief about it. I mean, in S1 we have Dean driving a motorcycle, telling Rory she should read Hunter Thompson, and saying that he's "not much of a joiner".  By S3, he's playing multiple school sports, attends all the town events, and there is nary a book or leather jacket in sight. I do recognize that even as early as S1, he was voicing some more traditional values ("That Damn Donna Reed"), and that he certainly came from a more traditional family unit than Rory, but still that's quite the character adjustment. I have to fanwank that as he assimilated into SH, he began to take on some of their values, and just changed. That can happen, especially to someone who's only 16.

My other big UO concerning Dean...I think the Dean/Rory affair at the end of S4/beginning of S5 made sense. I think it was in character for both of them, and I think the series had earned it. I definitely don't think it came out of nowhere, or was hard to believe. Hard to stomach, maybe. But the show had been building towards it ever since Rory had first "chosen" Jess.

First, did she really choose him? I mean, I definitely think it was what she wanted, but if Dean hadn't made the choice to end things at the dance marathon, who knows how long that would've dragged on...they may not have broken up that year at all. Watching Rory in S2-S3, I see a girl that's pining for Jess, yes, but she's also clearly pretty conflicted. Some of that has to do with guilt and passivity and wanting to be the "good" girl, but that's not all it is. Rory has this undeniable attraction to Jess, they have crazy chemistry, and he challenges her, and that's exciting. But to someone like Rory, that's also scary. It means a risk, and we know how careful and deliberate Rory is. Dean is just the opposite. For Rory, he represents stability, comfort, and safety. They also have a deep friendship that comes from their familiarity. Rory's an introvert, and there aren't many people that are that deep into her world. So it's hard for her to let go, and she's not ready to let go of Dean yet, even though she does want to be with Jess, which is why we got the love triangle.

So she makes her decision (or it's made for her), and she takes the risk on Jess. And honestly....it doesn't turn out so great.  He doesn't treat her well. There's also some evidence that she's still not totally ready to let Dean go.   Even during the Jess relationship, we see her comparing him to Dean ("Sure, Dean always called when he said he would...") She's shaken up when she finds out about Lindsey.  Then Jess bails on her, and it hurts her. 

She leaves for school and we can see her struggling to figure out where she fits in. She feels a little lost and insecure. Like lots of college freshman, she's longing for comfort and security and familiarity.  We see it in Incredible Sinking Lorelai's when she's crying on  Dean's shoulder and talking about Lane leaving her dorm  (" I know she had to go but I liked her there.."). Dean represents all of these things to her. By the end of S4, she's fully regretting the risk she took with Jess. She summarizes it perfectly in Raincoats when she's telling Lane how Jess showed up at her dorm. 

LANE: Dean was very dependable.

RORY: It was more than that. He's -- well, he was so... um, I was safe, and he was so nice to me.

LANE: He really loved you.

RORY: I think I really blew it there, you know? I didn't appreciate it.

Of course, on Dean's part, he idealized Rory , even more so after the dust had settled with Jess. The Lindsey (Lindsay?) marriage was obviously an incredibly immature decision born out of desperation to move on, and in the end only served to make him idealize her more, since she was a fantasy and he was living in a not so happy reality with Lindsey.

So, all this to demonstrate why I think it made perfect sense that they came together, even with Dean being married. I didn't like to see it, but I could never understand why people were surprised by it. It's almost as though Jess was this bomb that went off inside their relationship, and because of it, they weren't able to grow apart naturally, like I think they would have if he'd never come to town. For Dean especially, there  was a lot of unfinished business that needed to be played out before they could move on. (As an aside, I want to stress that I see Jess's part in Rory's life as much much more than just a bomb that went off in her relationship with Dean, but in the context of that relationship, that's how I see him.)

That said, I did hate Dean's last scene as well. I'm hoping in the revival they'll allow him a more dignified exit.

[junienmomo]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

I agree that the layout of the Crap Shack is strange, and it makes little sense that an upstairs that appears fairly large from the outside consists solely of one bedroom and one bathroom.  Though in terms of an intruder, I think if the person is determined enough, it's not going to matter if you are in the room next to your kid or upstairs from them.   

Yep, especially if you don't lock your doors.

[Crs97]

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Though in terms of an intruder, I think if the person is determined enough, it's not going to matter if you are in the room next to your kid or upstairs from them.   

Yep, but at least I can try to protect them and they will have to kill me first.

[cuddlingcrowley]

My unpopular opinion is that I don't think Rory was a better girlfriend to Jess than he was a boyfriend to her. I think only later, with Logan, that she learned there are two people in a relationship, instead of just her.

[Lady Calypso]

23 hours ago, Crs97 said:

My UO is that I hate the Crap Shack.  I cannot imagine my child's room being downstairs off the kitchen while I am upstairs.  It's a dumb design to begin with; all those stairs for one room?  If I am alone with my kids at night, I need to be on the same floor as they are.  I don't like the idea of an intruder slipping past me.  I know it's Stars Hollow, but I can't believe Lorelei never thought of that.  And where is Rory's bathroom?  It bugs me every time.

So do I, and the layout makes no sense. How is it that the top floor only has one bedroom and one bathroom? How is it that the downstairs only has a bedroom near the kitchen? Especially after the upstairs gets renovated, it means that Gigi/Rory had to use Lorelai's bathroom in the last two seasons. Guests have to go upstairs through her bedroom to use the only bathroom. If there are two bathrooms upstairs, it's stupid as hell still. But I'm pretty sure it's only Lorelai's bedroom and now renovated bathroom with the only entrance through Lorelai's room. 

Now, my setup at my house with my parents is that they're on the main floor and my sister and I are on the top floor. But still, there's also one bathroom on the top floor, and there's two bathrooms on the main floor, and our house is only a tiny bit bigger than the Crap Shack (at least width wise). The fact that the Crap Shack can't afford a bathroom on the main floor is astonishing. I know it's called the Crap Shack for a reason, but the outside definitely contradicts the inside in terms of space. 

[chessiegal]

5 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

So do I, and the layout makes no sense. How is it that the top floor only has one bedroom and one bathroom? How is it that the downstairs only has a bedroom near the kitchen? Especially after the upstairs gets renovated, it means that Gigi/Rory had to use Lorelai's bathroom in the last two seasons. Guests have to go upstairs through her bedroom to use the only bathroom. If there are two bathrooms upstairs, it's stupid as hell still. But I'm pretty sure it's only Lorelai's bedroom and now renovated bathroom with the only entrance through Lorelai's room. 

Now, my setup at my house with my parents is that they're on the main floor and my sister and I are on the top floor. But still, there's also one bathroom on the top floor, and there's two bathrooms on the main floor, and our house is only a tiny bit bigger than the Crap Shack (at least width wise). The fact that the Crap Shack can't afford a bathroom on the main floor is astonishing. I know it's called the Crap Shack for a reason, but the outside definitely contradicts the inside in terms of space. 

I'd love to hear ASP's reason for the layout of the house. And as I said up thread, in Season 1 there was a bathroom on the 1st floor, that later morphed into a closet.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I'd love to hear ASP's reason for the layout of the house. And as I said up thread, in Season 1 there was a bathroom on the 1st floor, that later morphed into a closet.

My guess is the reason mostly had to do with filming.  It may have been easier to have most of the house on one level so the characters could go into multiple locations without having to build another set beyond Lorelai's bedroom/bathroom. 

[chessiegal]

50 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

My guess is the reason mostly had to do with filming.  It may have been easier to have most of the house on one level so the characters could go into multiple locations without having to build another set beyond Lorelai's bedroom/bathroom. 

I am thinking the same thing - easier for filming. I know the front of the house is a facade, and the interiors were stage sets.

[mamadrama]

Here is my unpopular opinion...I actually liked Luke's bedroom set. You know, the big one with angels? I love weird, old crap and that set was just up my alley. She could have replaced the mattress to something more comfortable and replaced the glass in the mirror so that you could actually see into it and it would have been fine (for me). I have a hard time, in general, understanding Lorelei's taste. There doesn't always seem to be a rhyme or reason for what she likes or uses. I never understood, for instance, her reluctance to letting Chris have the flat screen. As he pointed out, she watches a lot of TV. She had Luke put in a TV for her at his place. She loved the drive in and cinema. It seems like a big screen would have been right up her alley. Was it just because it was CHRIS wanting to put it in (oh, the naughty insinuation!!) and she was resistant to change? 

[ChlcGirl]

Lorelei was one of the most inconsistent characters ever when it came to taste.  She could look absolutely stunning (like when she wore that white and red sundress to Rory's high school graduation) and then run around in a brown, puce and purple sweater/tshirt hybrid.  She made fun of the Cheshire Cat B&B and then decorated the Dragonfly like she was determined to use every calico print in the world. She hated Luke's bedroom set but she had a giant .. shelf? Top part of a breakfront? in a similar style and color in her downstairs.

She drives me insane.

[Kohola3]

13 minutes ago, ChlcGirl said:

Lorelei was one of the most inconsistent characters ever when it came to taste.

Not to mention the rabbi clock.  And the one that made barnyard animal sounds.  And the Betty Boop lamp.  As my mother used to say, "her taste was all in her mouth".

[ChlcGirl]

1 hour ago, Kohola3 said:

Not to mention the rabbi clock.  And the one that made barnyard animal sounds.  And the Betty Boop lamp.  As my mother used to say, "her taste was all in her mouth".

Truer words were never spoken.  I'm actually surprised that it was Luke that owned a Big Mouth Billy Bass and not Lorelei.

[chessiegal]

Can we please spell Lorelai's name correctly? Pet peeve.

[txhorns79]

Quote

She made fun of the Cheshire Cat B&B and then decorated the Dragonfly like she was determined to use every calico print in the world. She hated Luke's bedroom set but she had a giant .. shelf? Top part of a breakfront? in a similar style and color in her downstairs.

Yes, the woman who apparently made a special effort to get all the Charlie's Angels themed plates has a pretty limited right to complain about other people's tastes.  She's lucky that visiting her home didn't kill Gran right on the spot.    

Edited November 12, 2016 by txhorns79

[cuddlingcrowley]

3 hours ago, mamadrama said:

Here is my unpopular opinion...I actually liked Luke's bedroom set. You know, the big one with angels? I love weird, old crap and that set was just up my alley. She could have replaced the mattress to something more comfortable and replaced the glass in the mirror so that you could actually see into it and it would have been fine (for me).

Exactly. The dresser was really pretty. I'm not gonna say I loved the entire set, mainly for the color. It was too dark. By painting it a lighter color that would have blended in better with the decoration and also doing the alterations you mentioned, it would have gone a long way to make the whole thing actually looking great.  

 

4 hours ago, mamadrama said:

I never understood, for instance, her reluctance to letting Chris have the flat screen. As he pointed out, she watches a lot of TV. She had Luke put in a TV for her at his place. She loved the drive in and cinema. It seems like a big screen would have been right up her alley. Was it just because it was CHRIS wanting to put it in (oh, the naughty insinuation!!) and she was resistant to change? 

Now, that annoyed me! But I also think it was meant to stand out to the audience, like the not wanting to have kids with Chris thing.

[mamadrama]

8 hours ago, chessiegal said:

Can we please spell Lorelai's name correctly? Pet peeve.

I honestly don't think I can. I spell it the way I'm used to seeing it spelled from the people I know with that name. Considering the number of shows and characters running through my head at any given moment during the day, and how little I like her character, I am shocked as hell I even remember what her name IS. 

[chessiegal]

30 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

I honestly don't think I can. I spell it the way I'm used to seeing it spelled from the people I know with that name. Considering the number of shows and characters running through my head at any given moment during the day, and how little I like her character, I am shocked as hell I even remember what her name IS. 

Well, if you dislike the character that much, it should be easy to remember you also don't like the way the writers spell her name. ;-)

[JayInChicago]

This is probably an UO but I really like Luke's ugly plaid sheet set from the first time Lor spends the night (I think.) I've tried to look for sheets like it to no avail. I also tend to dig his clothes and his spartan apartment. Lol

[Kohola3]

I actually have a set of flannel sheets in red plaid.  Very festive at Christmas.  Not a romantic look, however.

[mamadrama]

3 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

I actually have a set of flannel sheets in red plaid.  Very festive at Christmas.  Not a romantic look, however.

Heck, I have red flannel sheets AND a red flannel nightgown. It gets my husband totally hot. (Not, seriously, he burns up. Can't come within an inch of me when I wear it.) 

[Blandings]

Hi there! I'm an old fan who recently watched the series again in preparation for the revival. Very smart, kind and funny folks seem to gravitate here. I have a few opinions that I haven't seen too much here or elsewhere.

I loved the first season the most. I feel like each season dropped a little in quality from the one that came before. Of the five major characters, Lorelai, Rory, Luke, Emily and Richard, I thought four of them were a lot better written in the first season than any other. Lorelai is the only exception. I thought her best season was probably season 2 or 3 because she was a little more mature, but even she was a lot easier to love in the first season than the later ones. 

I don't love Dean or Max but I don't dislike them like a lot of folks seem to. Max was actually my second favorite of Lorelai's boyfriends. I can't say Dean and Max did much to enhance the first season for me but they didn't decrease my love for it either. I didn't have ill feelings towards Dean until the fourth season. I actually felt some sympathy for him in seasons 2 and 3. 

I love Lorelai and love Luke but after watching this second time I have to agree with what some folks here have said about their lack of chemistry and compatibility once the show finally put them together. I'm starting to get into fanfic and always end up thinking they work better in those stories than they did on the actual show. Sorry to keep harping on the first season, but I thought their chemistry was off the charts then and that Luke was smarter, more quick witted, and less angry and resentful about things back then, just grumpy in a self-protective and funny way. It seemed like Luke and Rory and sometimes Lorelai regressed a lot as the series went on. I still cared about them, but it became a lot harder.

Luke and Lorelai seemed so compatible intellectually and emotionally to me in the fist season despite their differences or even because of them, and I thought they had the most physical sparks then as well. It's hard to explain, but am I alone in feeling like they wrote Luke/Lorelai much better in the first season than any other and were never able to recapture that magic? I still fall in love with them when I watch the first season, but then it starts to fade as the series goes on. 

I agree that Jess and Rory had the most pure chemistry but have mixed feelings about Jess and the Jess/Rory pairing. Of Rory's love interests, Marty was my favorite, and he probably doesn't even count as a love interest since she didn't reciprocate his feelings. I'm also pretending that Marty wasn't brought back as a psychotic in the seventh season. 

I despise Logan Huntzberger. I was praying he would improve with a second viewing, but he didn't.  I know it's not fair and I've read persuasive points here and elsewhere about why he was a better person and boyfriend than people like me think he was, but there is just something about him that makes me want to throw things at the screen. I will steal adjectives that other people here have used and say that he is just so smarmy, smug and the kind of person who comes across as artificial to me even when he's being "sincere." I have a history of liking charming, carefree fictional men paired with more serious bookish women, but nothing about Logan is charming to me. I'm not someone who automatically hates characters from a privileged background, it's just that this particular character is someone I can't seem to like and trust. Rory or maybe Alexis Bledel usually seemed as uncomfortable around Logan and his godawful friends as I would have been. I'm still surprised that their relationship amounted to more than a couple of one night stands in the fifth season and wish it had ended there. If not, it should have at least ended when Jess came back into town and Logan was even more of a pompous drunken jerk than usual. I am not sure how much of that condescending smirk or his repulsive friends I can take in the revival. 

Complete agreement with people who think they should have focused less on Rory's annoying love life and more on figuring out her identity outside of either Lorelai and Stars Hollow or Emily/Richard's world. I would have loved to see stories about her discovering what she was meant to do with her future since it really didn't seem like journalism was what she did best or even what she loved most. I agree that I love the idea of her becoming an English teacher but I can't see this show doing that.

The most unpopular one is that I think I wish the series had ended after the fourth season. Seasons 5, 6 and 7 depress me and sometimes make me love the earlier seasons less because I can't help thinking about how everyone and everything goes downhill.  I hope the revival makes up for some of the mistakes they made over the least few seasons of the show. 

Edited November 16, 2016 by Blandings

[amensisterfriend]

Of the five major characters, Lorelai, Rory, Luke, Emily and Richard, I thought four of them were a lot better written in the first season than any other. Lorelai is the only exception

So I don't love S1 quite as much as some fans do (it's gone up in my estimation, but I still find it too cutesy, a little too heavy-handed, etc.) and would rank it below S2 and S3 on my list of my favorite seasons, but I realized while reading the above quoted sentence that I totally agree with it :) Rory and Luke in particular were BY FAR most lovable and interesting to me in that first season, and I do think that overall Richard and Emily were at their most nuanced and likable/sympathetic then too. 

 Luke was smarter, more quick witted, and less angry and resentful about things back then, just grumpy in a self-protective and funny way.

I'm at the table of people who thinks this as well. Even *I* mostly like Luke in S1, and those who have been around a little while know that I have major issues with him overall :) The acting and writing combined to exaggerate his temper issues and bitterness post-S1, often making him seem (to me) like an utterly unpleasant killjoy at best and a nasty brute at worst. I'm realizing as I type this that I actually like Luke more in S7 than in nearly any post-S1 season. At least I'm in the right thread :) 

I despise Logan Huntzberger. I was praying he would improve with a second viewing, but he didn't.  I know it's not fair and I've read persuasive points here and elsewhere about why he was a better person and boyfriend than people like me think he was, but there is just something about him that makes me want to throw things at the screen. I will steal adjectives that other people here have used and say that he is just so smarmy, smug and the kind of person who comes across as artificial to me even when he's being "sincere." I have a history of liking charming, carefree fictional men paired with more serious bookish women, but nothing about Logan is charming to me. I'm not someone who automatically hates characters from a privileged background, it's just that this particular character is someone I can't seem to like and trust. Rory or maybe Alexis Bledel usually seemed as uncomfortable around Logan and his godawful friends as I would have been. I'm still surprised that their relationship amounted to more than a couple of one night stands in the fifth season and wish it had ended there. If not, it should have at least ended when Jess came back into town and Logan was even more of a pompous drunken jerk than usual. I am not sure how much of that condescending smirk or his repulsive friends I can take in the revival.

I go back and forth on Logan a ton, though even during stages when I enjoy Logan and Rory/Logan as a pairing, I objectively agree with much of the criticism tossed his way :) And yeah, I just never saw Rory/Logan as 'together forever' (or even still in touch after all these years), and I'm dreading our (hopefully limited?!) time with the Life and Death Brigade. 

Complete agreement with people who think they should have focused less on Rory's annoying love life and more on figuring out her identity outside of either Lorelai and Stars Hollow or Emily/Richard's world. I would have loved to see stories about her discovering what she was meant to do with her future since it really didn't seem like journalism was what she did best or even what she loved most.

The most awesome thing about this thread for me has been finding out that this opinion is so much more popular than I ever would have thought!