General True Crime Shows

[roamyn]

That's incorrect abt the El Segundo killer. While he obviously had little remorse he did have some. He actually cried & pled guilty rather than go to trial.

But his remorse was probably not high, as he never turned himself in.

However, after watching his courtroom statement, I actually felt bad for him. he made a stupid irresponsible mistake when he was a teenager and for which two people paid the ultimate price, and legitimately he should have gone to jail for the rest of his life then.

in situations like this where the perpetrator has led an exemplary life since then, which he did, should that play a factor? I don't know what the right answer is.

[walnutqueen]

I think the robbery, kidnapping, rape and brutalization of 4 teenagers and the cold blooded murder of two police officers is a little more than just a stupid, irresponsible teenage mistake.  I see nothing exemplary about his life thereafter, either, other than not getting arrested.  It's not like he devoted the rest of his life to serving HIV orphans in India or anything.

 

(And yes, I saw a PBS documentary about a young man named Rocky who hadn't committed ANY crimes, but who has devoted his life to looking after HIV positive and AIDS sick orphans in India, which is what I'd consider leading "an exemplary life").

 

Sorry for the rant - I don't mean to sound harsh, but there's no way I can minimize this person's crimes.

 

 

ETA:  Maizie131 - my money's on Enrique, too.  :-)

Edited January 10, 2015 by walnutqueen

[applecrisp]

Did anyone watch Unraveled?  It's a new series.  It was about a woman who can't deal with her husband wanting a divorce.  Here are a couple of tidbits.  She got bone lengthening surgery, which cost $80,000, but told her husband she had a bone disease.  She promised never to get plastic surgery again.

 

Then she comes home with 2 black eyes and claims she was in a car accident.

 

He wants a divorce and so she does something drastic.

 

Anyhow,so far I like this show.

[Maizie131]

Did anyone watch Unraveled?  It's a new series.  It was about a woman who can't deal with her husband wanting a divorce.  Here are a couple of tidbits.  She got bone lengthening surgery, which cost $80,000, but told her husband she had a bone disease.  She promised never to get plastic surgery again.

 

Then she comes home with 2 black eyes and claims she was in a car accident.

 

He wants a divorce and so she does something drastic.

 

Anyhow,so far I like this show.

Applecrisp - yep, I watched Unraveled and I'm w/you - I'll watch it again.  Talk about a PSYCHO!  And thanks for the good re-cap, cuz so many of these shows are similar or have been told a half dozen times before in different formats, but this story was new to me.  I almost turned it off at the part where her husband learned she had the bone-lengthening surgery & stayed w/her after that, but I stuck w/it.  I figured then he'd have an early demise somewhere down the road, but ya never know (shaking my head)!

[Maizie131]

Am I the last one to discover that ID's Cause of Death show is actually Forensic Files with a different title?

 

Oh, and how new is the Unraveled show? Because I've seen that story before (the one about the bone-lengthening woman who beat her husband with the baseball bat). I found the story interesting and watched it again, but I hope we're not getting a load of retitled reruns. 

Hi, Akraven.   Don't worry - you're not the last to know about Cause of Death being recycled from Forensic Files.  People are finding out eventually!  ha!   Actually, I hadn't seen the story featured in Unraveled, so it was entertaining (if you can call it that).  At least to me it wasn't another re-hash.  If you're hoping we don't get a load of retitled reruns on ID you're gonna be really disappointed!  It's what they do!  

 

Cannot wait to see what they're (ID) gonna do w/a murder that happened here in Michigan a few years ago.  The asshole who contracted to get his wife killed was just convicted before Christmas, and he'll be sentenced this Thursday (mandatory LWOP).  Unfortunately we have no DP in Michigan, which is a real shame cuz this POS is a perfect candidate.  Anyhow, remember the name Robert Bashara, formerly of Grosse Pointe Park, Michigan (VERY high-rent district!), and I'm sure you'll be seeing the whole sordid mess shortly on an ID program.  My guess would be "My Dirty Little Secret."  It was already featured on Dateline awhile ago. Anyhow, Google his name & you can read all about it.  I followed the trial every day & I'm REAL excited to watch his sentencing live this Thursday!  YAY!  Sometimes justice DOES prevail! 

Edited January 12, 2015 by Maizie131

[auntjess]

Cause of Death showed that California kid who paid his friend to kill his family, a story we've seen on other shows.
But they left out what I thought was an important motive, that the father found a story in the college paper where the son claimed to have founded and owned the father's aviation company.
Father was pissed and planning to disinherit son after the upcoming Easter holiday.  Hence the rush.

[Maizie131]

Cause of Death showed that California kid who paid his friend to kill his family, a story we've seen on other shows.

But they left out what I thought was an important motive, that the father found a story in the college paper where the son claimed to have founded and owned the father's aviation company.

Father was pissed and planning to disinherit son after the upcoming Easter holiday.  Hence the rush.

What shocked me the most about this one is - why didn't he get the death penalty?  San Quentin death row would be a great place for this SOB, ya think?  Whole frickin' family?!?  I don't understand.  I know it takes years & years to kill 'em, but living with that thought for all those years, I think, is a good thing. 

Edited January 12, 2015 by Maizie131

[jenkait]

Let's talk about scraping the bottom of the barrel of watching ID.  I was watching Fatal Vows recently and found myself momentarily 'shipping the two therapists.  Aaaargh...

[BigBlueMastiff]

 

Let's talk about scraping the bottom of the barrel of watching ID.  I was watching Fatal Vows recently and found myself momentarily 'shipping the two therapists.  Aaaargh...

Love those two, and how they interact.

 

 

What shocked me the most about this one is - why didn't he get the death penalty?  San Quentin death row would be a great place for this SOB, ya think?  Whole frickin' family?!?  I don't understand.  I know it takes years & years to kill 'em, but living with that thought for all those years, I think, is a good thing.

I think the jury voted for life, which to me is, worse, he will spend years and years until hopefully a very old age living with what he did, rather than about 25 on DR once appeals process runs its course.

[friendperidot]

don't know if it's a new sow or a new season, show is "Web of Lies", first one looks to be a young girl who got a bicycle and has friends on social media. but what I want to know about is the ad where a woman is texting and she holds up a red dress. is the woman Jennifer Morrison? A couple of shots really look like her, but unless she made yhat a few years ago, I'd think she's too big of a name to be doing ID shows.

[applecrisp]

Love those two, and how they interact.

 

I think the jury voted for life, which to me is, worse, he will spend years and years until hopefully a very old age living with what he did, rather than about 25 on DR once appeals process runs its course.

I do too.  One time Stacey(I think) stated how this ungrateful bitch killed her very nice husband and so many women were out there looking for nice guys.  I  thought that really is a shame. And it happens sooo much.

 

On the most recent Wives With Knives-yes I've started watching that,too, a girl stabbed her BF with a corkscrew.  The only thing I could think of was the list that was on this board.  It should have been called Shrews with Corkscrews.

 

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[roamyn]

I do too.  One time Stacey(I think) stated how this ungrateful bitch killed her very nice husband and so many women were out there looking for nice guys.  I  thought that really is a shame. And it happens sooo much.

 

On the most recent Wives With Knives-yes I've started watching that,too, a girl stabbed her BF with a corkscrew.  The only thing I could think of was the list that was on this board.  It should have been called Shrews with Corkscrews.

 

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

 

LOL applecrisp.  Good one!

 

Or after The Ohio State dismantled Oregon last night:  Bucks that kill Ducks  (Sorry, can't help it.  Buckeye football is a religion in Ohio)

[auntjess]

 

Bucks that kill Ducks

OK, this spurs me to share this with you all, from This is True post on Facebook.

(You'll see where the ducks come in.)  http://www.jumbojoke.com/top_10_diagnostic_codes.html

 

[TattleTeeny]

Ugh, you guys, I keep forgetting to check back in here (ironically, considering the topic, one of the nicer threads in this place) but last night's Obsession: Dark Desires made me cry. Made me want to rematch the bizarrely hilarious "I hate you, Amy!" episode.

[Maizie131]

Ugh, you guys, I keep forgetting to check back in here (ironically, considering the topic, one of the nicer threads in this place) but last night's Obsession: Dark Desires made me cry. Made me want to rematch the bizarrely hilarious "I hate you, Amy!" episode.

Tattle - I watched the first 15 minutes or so...until the scene where that nutcase got pissed off at the adorable kitty & was taking it into the bathroom. Soon as he shut the door I changed the channel.  Also, horrible as it is to say, I didn't feel a whole lotta sympathy for the 17 y.o. girl who stayed w/him after he slugged her the first time.  A man hitting a woman is just beyond my comprehension...no matter what the circumstances. 

 

I forget the "I hate you, Amy" episode -- what was that one about?

[TattleTeeny]

Tattle - I watched the first 15 minutes or so...until the scene where that nutcase got pissed off at the adorable kitty & was taking it into the bathroom. Soon as he shut the door I changed the channel.  Also, horrible as it is to say, I didn't feel a whole lotta sympathy for the 17 y.o. girl who stayed w/him after he slugged her the first time.  A man hitting a woman is just beyond my comprehension...no matter what the circumstances.

I forget the "I hate you, Amy" episode -- what was that one about?

 

 

 

As soon as he gave her a cat, I knew I should have bailed out. Seriously, I cried...I mean, not like a huge blubbery mess, but there were tears and sniffles. If that girl--young or not--wasn't out of there when he hit her, she should have called 911 the second that fucker went into the bathroom with that cat.

 

The "I hate you, Amy" was a season ago (I think?) and was about a woman (Amy) who bought an apartment next door to another woman who was a crazed loon in the most out-there ways (and appeared to wear an old-school gray sweatsuit); it almost made no sense, and the reenactments were bordering on mustache-twirling cartoon villain complete with Eastern European accent that may or may not have been exaggerated*. I am sure it was terrible for Amy and all, but I laughed and laughed at the whole display (and present-day Amy seemed OK). And, to this day, my BF and I use a faux accent to say, "I hate you, Amy!" when we're frustrated with the DVR, one of the cats, the internet connection, a food we don't like...

* I do not mean to imply that Eastern Europeans are criminal stalkers; it's just what the reenactment sounded like!

ETA: A-ha!

Edited January 15, 2015 by TattleTeeny

[applecrisp]

Tattle and Maizie I feel for you, kittens are such innocent creatures. On one of the threads in Everything Else TV, there was a discussion about the ASPCA adds and how they upset so many people even more than the ones for children.  I am the same way and am a little disturbed to admit it.

 

Did anyone see the latest Murder Comes to Town?  A mother of four grown children is killed and they eventually find the killer.  Here's the weird part, TPTB told the family the killer took a plea deal and will serve 15- 19 years.  This was a pretty brutal murder and they were shocked, me to.  

[TattleTeeny]

On one of the threads in Everything Else TV, there was a discussion about the ASPCA adds and how they upset so many people even more than the ones for children.

 

Yup. I always wonder if showing success stories would serve these charities better; people may feel more confident donating to a cause that isn't constantly portrayed as futile.

 

Don't worry - you're not the last to know about Cause of Death being recycled from Forensic Files.

 

This is news to me too--and good news, at that! I find myself watching the now-outdated Forensic Files because so many of ID's shows are so bad at showing me real-deal crime-solving! 

 

I am wondering if A Crime to Remember is going to cover the Gertrude Baniszewski story. Ugh, that one just disgusts me beyond that of so many others.

Edited January 15, 2015 by TattleTeeny

[Fraoch]

I've lived in Indianapolis my whole life, and I remember when I was pretty young that it was a HUGE deal when Gertrude was released from prison. It's such a horrific case, but I would actually be interested in seeing ACTR take it on because of how that show handles other cases. Plus, it's in the past yet recent enough that a number of key players (newspaper reporters, lawyers involved with the trial) are still alive and talking about it.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Fraoch

[walnutqueen]

Andyourlittledog2 - against my better judgement, I recorded Breaking Point, but I haven't had the stomach to watch it.  Thank you for freeing up an hour from my overworked DVR and saving my already frayed nerves.  :-)

 

ITA about the Disappeared "Specials".  Try as you may, you cannot fool us with this deception, ID.

 

Oh, and loving the new fake ID show titles, everyone.  I must update my list.  ;-)

[Rina99]

ID seems to be striking out with the 'reality' programming they are doing. The case centric shows are largely okay now. But these new 'reality' ones are just a big mistake in my opinion. 

 

Snipped, for brevity, but I agree with your entire post about that Alex person.  Just a horrible human being.

 

Did they cancel that psychic show they had last year?  I agree that their "reality" leaves a lot to be desired.

[Maizie131]

There have been people on Intervention that were just so awful and so annoying you wanted to smack them, but 85 to 100 percent of it was the disease.  They were usually nice enough folks who became addicts and the addiction and lifestyle just tanked them.  

 

Then there's Breaking Point's Alex.  ...

 

(Above post abbreviated by me to save space! 

 

Andyourlittledog2 - OMG you have REALLY got a way with words!  Succinct, to-the-point, and elegantly stated, I might add!   I DVR'd this show but after (recovering from) reading your post I ran to my DVR & deleted it.  I don't need to know anything else!  TOO effin funny!!!!!

 

Actually, I meant to say "eloquently" stated, but "elegantly" works just as well - ha!  I've been up since 5 - I'm tired today. 

Edited January 17, 2015 by Maizie131

[aurora296]

I agree about the new show Breaking Point. I've seen every single episode of Intervention and mourned it's cancellation. At least they're feeding us tidbits with the Intervention Canada shows they've been airing.  

 

I REALLY wanted to like Breaking Point, but I didn't buy one stinking minute of it. That interventionist (who was the host of another show, Deadly Sins (?), I believe) had no control over this "criminal intervention". I wondered if the whole thing was fake and Alex was an actress. 

 

The cops get called and she's smart enough to know to act "sane" around them and "yessir, I WILL go to rehab, Officer sir!" then as soon as they leave the house, she's hahaha!! I LIED to the cops. What kind of stupid cops takes the word of a addict with a history of violence and criminal activity. I feel there was more those cops could have done.

 

Then the dumbs Dad who see drug paraphenalia in her room and his first impulse is to hide it from the cops while he's talking his daughter into going into rehab?

 

The mom was such a wimp, it was hard to believe that was real.

 

And Alex...Almost always I find some part of the addicts that make me wish they succeed, but with her, I agree that I think she's just a bad, arrogant seed. Even if she got clean and led a normal life, I feel like she be a controlling, arrogant bitch wondering why she hasn't made it as a singer since she bullies everyone into telling her how great she can sing Amazing Grace (not!) 

 

The fakest part of it all was how hard she fought not to go to rehab all episode and after only 30 days she's suddenly cured and happy. Bull crap! Don't try to BS the audience like you've done your mother all these years and the cops at your house. I will bet my house that within 2 days of leaving rehab, she was back to stealing and shooting dope...and my usually sensitive heart doesn't care. Good riddance!

 

I'm going to give this show another shot and hope the second episode is more convincing or tears at my heart strings just a little. I really really miss Intervention. 

[Callasin]

I'm so happy to find this thread it was one of my favorites on TWOP.  Did anyone watch Vanity Fair Murders last night and what did you think?  As someone who has had sinus problems all of my life I will now never have surgery without a couple of second opinions. 

[walnutqueen]

I watched Vanity Fair Confidential last night, and once again, was surprised to find a new ID show that didn't suck.  I thought the story was interesting and they did a good job of telling it.  Beware of doctors who seem TOO successful and do to many damned surgeries,  and rarely show their face to their patients, I guess.   I wonder if anyone was able to collect any part of the judgments against him?

 

They are airing repeats of this episode Sunday afternoon and late evening, if anyone missed it.

[applecrisp]

I had heard this story before and it is a whopper.  Glad Vanity Fair did a good job with it.  Did anyone watch Murder Comes to Town?  I had not heard this story and I have not been living under a rock,yet find myself increasingly missing big news stories.  I just can't take the news and rarely read the newspaper because it's just too crappy.  I get too depressed about everything.

 

This whole family was killed in rural Indiana.  I am always surprised when an initial suspect has something-in this case a pair of shoes-that puts the focus on them. I really like this show and its small town murders.  The rural areas of this country can be so poor with few services and even fewer jobs.  People on the margins of society.

[Maizie131]

Yesterday they did a "marathon" of A Crime to Remember and I was bored enough to watch 3 or 4 for the second time.  That is one fantastic show.  Love the props - right down to hairbrushes & hand mirrors exactly like I had in the 60s (not to mention everyone smoking).  And, as you stated, the music at the end is perfect.  It deserves to win more awards.  Again, reminds me of Mad Men a bit, which I'm real sorry will be finished this spring/summer.

 

I didn't care much for Murder Comes to Town last nite, but I did enjoy Vanity Fair Confidential about the "nose doctor" who bilked hundreds of people out of money & ruined their lives w/unnecessary surgeries (& killed one).  Can't believe that asshole only got 7 years.  smh.  Did think it ridiculous that his wife, after learning there was zero money & his entire medical practice was a sham took it upon herself to fly to various countries (Paris, Italy) looking for him.

[Maizie131]

Beware of doctors who seem TOO successful and do to many damned surgeries,  and rarely show their face to their patients, I guess. 

Walnutqueen - VERY wise words, indeed. 

 

A name to watch out for (again, here in Michigan) is Dr. Farid Fata.  This SOB's been charged with Medicare fraud for unnecessary chemotherapy (can you imagine?!?) & a slew of other procedures.  He had at least a 1/2 dozen very nice offices in the Detroit metro area and a huge following of people who loved him, including my sister-in-law, whom SHE went to for chemo (breast cancer).  Obviously, she now wants him in prison for the rest of his days.  ID channel will be featuring him down the road, also, no doubt. 

[Maizie131]

Can't believe I'm gonna say this, but ID channel last nite was VERY entertaining.  I actually enjoyed THREE shows in a ROW - check 'em out in reruns: Ice Cold Killers, Murder Book and Obsession: Dark Desires.  The Obsession episode really got my heart thumping (& I even shed a couple tears at the very end).  Amazing! 

[TattleTeeny]

During this week's Obsession, before I realized that a cop had arrived on the scene, I was like, "Who drives a car through someone's living room...and then politely knocks at the bedroom door?"

Edited January 23, 2015 by TattleTeeny

[fliptopbox]

Breaking Point seems like a fun show so far, even if it's obvious they are ripping off Intervention.

 

Drug addict? Check! Dealer boyfriend? Check! Shoplifting for drug money? Check! Dealer teaches girl to steal cars? Check! Shitty childhood/family to blame? We'll come back to that.. Burglary? Check!

The gang's all here.

 

I'm curious to see how a criminal intervention differs from your run of the mill alcohol/drug intervention....which could also be useful here. I am half hoping to see Jeff Van Vonderen or Candy Finnegan make an appearance. Though I doubt it.

 

Now I'm gonna have to go into DirectTV's on demand to see if there's previous episodes available.

 

Guess ID wants their piece of the 'reality' action.

[applecrisp]

Did anyone see Unraveled tonight?  My DVR cut off what was Paul's sentence?  I had seen this same story on Law& Order back when Mike Logan (Chris Noth ) was the cop. In its glory days.

[Josette]

 

what was Paul's sentence?

 

He got 16 2/3-50 years.  He has a parole hearing next month.

[Maizie131]

During this week's Obsession, before I realized that a cop had arrived on the scene, I was like, "Who drives a car through someone's living room...and then politely knocks at the bedroom door?"

I had a split-second thought back to - "Heeeeere's Johnny!", but Jack Nicholson was knocking w/an axe :).  I was just so frickin' happy their puppy survived, too. 

[TattleTeeny]

ME TOO! Especially after the episode of a week or two ago with the kitten. I can't even...still!

[applecrisp]

Just saw the latest My Dirty Little Secret and surprise! The victim (a pastor's wife) was not remembered in glowing terms.  In fact, she was a pain in the butt.  Both the police and parishioners were not shy about saying so.  Almost made me feel sorry for her.

 

This happens so rarely I thought I would mention it.

[damalanop]

Just saw the latest My Dirty Little Secret and surprise! The victim (a pastor's wife) was not remembered in glowing terms.  In fact, she was a pain in the butt.  Both the police and parishioners were not shy about saying so.  Almost made me feel sorry for her.

 

 

I liked this episode for the very same reason.  Literally, the killer could have been anyone!  I didn't catch this...was she pregnant when she was killed?  

Edited January 27, 2015 by damalanop

[applecrisp]

damalanop,  I think she was.  They had only been in town for months, so a pretty destructive relationship.

[damalanop]

applecrisp: Thanks!  You are so right.  So much destruction done within the space of a few months. It's so unfortunate that she was pregnant when she died.  Those types of killings make me extra sad.

[TattleTeeny]

Just saw the latest My Dirty Little Secret and surprise! The victim (a pastor's wife) was not remembered in glowing terms.  In fact, she was a pain in the butt.  Both the police and parishioners were not shy about saying so.  Almost made me feel sorry for her.

 

This happens so rarely I thought I would mention it.

You mean to tell me she didn't light up every room she ever entered?

 

OK, so did anyone see Obsession this week? I was half and half laughing at the portrayal of the bad guy, and horrified at the police's behavior.

Edited January 29, 2015 by TattleTeeny

[kathyk24]

I couldn't believe that Carlito from Obsession got such a light sentence. Five years isn't long enough for arson. I hope the cops were punished for not honoring her restraining order seriously

[TattleTeeny]

He could have killed everyone in that building--pets, kids, everybody--and still it wasn't a "serious" offense? Oy. 

 

Also, why in the holy hell did she go into his place the second time? I'm not going to victim-blame but lady!

[Rina99]

I finally watched an episode of Breaking Point, the one featuring the punk, Pierce. I don't give a shit about him, his parents, his bible-thumping sister and brother-in-law. I don't give a shit about this entire show; however, I would be interested in a follow-up of Pierce after he lands in jail/prison. It would give me pleasure to know that some thug gave him the righteous ass-whipping he needs and deserves. But I'm not bitter.

 

Ah, and just when I resolved to be a kinder, gentler poster in the new year. Pffft, there goes that resolution.

 

I've gone through hell with addiction issues within my own family.  I'm more than willing to give those addicts who actually want to change on their own a second chance, but Pierce set off all my rage trigger points, and I too want to see an interview with that entitled shit after he gets sentenced to state prison.  

 

Darren Kavenofsky(?) has been a surprise for me.  I'm so used to his over-the-top persona on Deadly Sins (a guilty pleasure of mine) that it's surprising to see him so low-key here.  

[applecrisp]

Good for you Suz.  I have a hard time with those types of shows as well.  Just can't watch them or Hoarders.  I see enough on the Real Housewives.  

 

Did anyone see Unraveled?  Just wondered what people thought about Arunya.  I really like this show.

[friendperidot]

Watching Murder Book, about 1957 murder of 2 police officers in El Segundo, California. The narrator said something like "3 yrs later when things are just about to be less painful, it opens back up". Wait, especially in officer deaths, isn't knowing and find clues better than not knowing. I think in all cold cases, people want to know...unless you're the killer.  

 

Editing to add, watching another episode, and I realize that the narration is like a pulp detective story from the 40s and 50s.

Edited January 31, 2015 by friendperidot

[applecrisp]

The Unraveled case was about a woman from Thailand who was a hard worker and successful working at a supermarket.  A fellow co-worker starts to harass her and makes it hard for her to work. He also reports her for working off the clock.  

 

She gets fired and goes ballistic, killing the co-worker and walking through the store with a gun.  All caught on cameras.

 

She took it too far.  I do think workplace bullying is a problem I have experienced.  Never had a problem in school, but had to work with some toxic people.  Of course none of them should be killed.

[walnutqueen]

applecrisp - re: Unraveled.  That woman snapped - and snapped HARD.  She had to have some very deep psychological issues before  breaking bad - I think they mentioned she had been treated in Thailand for PTSD?   What a horrific act - I wonder if she would have turned the gun on herself in the aftermath, or was hoping for suicide by cop ...

[ridethemaverick]

I'll be the heartless asshole and say I really sympathized with Arunya. He didn't deserve to die of course but Greg sounded like a total asshole. The woman just wanted to come to work and do her job to the best of her ability and he had to spew his jealousy, misogyny, and xenophobia and make her feel like shit.

She and she alone is responsible for her actions. But I do sympathize with her having to deal with that nonsense every day until she finally snapped.

[auntjess]

I erased it, after reading about it here.  No whodunit, and hate the shows where the victim asked for it, and the show doesn't acknowledge it.
A recent Cause of Death was like that.  The kid who scammed people who bought electronics from him online.  Yeah, the guy shouldn't have mailed him a bomb (ya think?), but when there's no legal way to recoup your losses, there should be some lessening of the charge.
And remember the older man who was marrying and robbing all the older women, and getting away with it?
The daughter was really wrong to get her son to help her kill him, but people like him leave so much misery behind--there were other impoverished women in his wake--that if she'd done it herself, I'd have allowed a much lesser plea.
The ultimate insult was when the show allowed his daughter to speak well of him, and bad mouth the ex-wife who got to keep her house.
I'm sure she mourned not having her daughter and grandson around, but good riddance to the SOB she'd been married to.\

[applecrisp]

Yeah, Aunt Jess, Walnut Queen and ride the maverick, it all fits in with praising the victim so much.  They all become saints. Yet there are those who have a hand in their own death.  I have heard in Texas they would say," He needed killin." It is the truth in some cases, I just wish Arunya could have resolved the issue by going to another store.  It was so close.