General True Crime Shows

[oliviabenson]

On 7/23/2022 at 4:43 PM, LexieLily said:

I just started my series binge-watch of Buried In The Backyard. I'd vaguely heard of Abraham Shakespeare but didn't know many details of the case. I want to say the case was shown on another true-crime show (maybe Deadly Women?) Christmastime Abraham's mother gets a phone call from someone pretending to be Abraham, to continue the ruse that he is alive but wants to be left alone. Detectives subpoenaed Mom's phone records to get the number of the phone that called and the narration said that they were "surprised" that the phone didn't belong to Abraham.

HOW IS THAT SURPRISING? 

It was on deadly women!

[oliviabenson]

I started to watch evil stepmother on ID.

[LuvMyShows]

Had occasion to mention to my husband the most memorable true crime anecdote for me, which is the guy who killed a young female (apartment neighbor?) by stabbing her in the back, but he told police that he had just put the knife between her shoulder blades to calm her down.  Sure, Jan.

Then today while I was driving, I had occasion to remember some episode where the guy wanted to kill his wife, so he put mice or rats in the center console of her car knowing she was deathly afraid of them, then called her on the phone while she was driving on the highway and said he needed her to check on something from the console.  IIRC, it didn't kill her, and she didn't seem to suspect that her husband did it, even though the timing of that call ain't no coincidence!  I think he did eventually kill her.

Final thought, from having seen it a million times and again just recently...if someone disappears leaving all their stuff behind, and everyone is very surprised, and the spouse/partner is the only one who claims to know where they went (usually to run off with someone else), then it's a lock that the spouse/partner killed them.  Detectives should just cuff them as soon as they hear it!  

[SunnyBeBe]

This is a very entertaining true crime mini series.  I think it’s on Hulu or Prime.  It’s based on the Australian woman who scammed investors, including her parents, friends and others out of their life’s savings to the tune of 40 million dollars, before she disappeared, just a day after authorities executed a search warrant on her home. Most of the money was not recovered.  Months later her foot was found on a beach still inside her shoe.  The movie purports she is still alive and that her foot was planted there on purpose.  Lol.  
 

I will say that was one cold lady. Sort of like a female Bernie Madoff.  He was her inspiration.   
 

[Annber03]

39 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Months later her foot was found on a beach still inside her shoe.  The movie purports she is still alive and that her foot was planted there on purpose.  Lol.  

O___O

...uh...wow. That's an unsettling thought, for a whole host of reasons. 

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, Annber03 said:

O___O

...uh...wow. That's an unsettling thought, for a whole host of reasons. 

That's some dedication to faking your death. I don't think most people would go that far.

[SunnyBeBe]

4 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

That's some dedication to faking your death. I don't think most people would go that far.

That’s what I thought.  You have to see what she was like.  I’ll just say that she was all in.  

[auntjess]

A DNA case from unusual source.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/police-s-use-of-a-baby-s-dna-to-id-its-father-as-a-suspect-violated-the-public-s-trust/ar-AA10TtUo?rc=1&ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=c856a2fa59f84f5ed9b78fe830864af9

[LuvMyShows]

Maybe everyone already knows this and I'm just late to the party, but there are new seasons of American Justice. Season 16 just started, and season 15 is available on the A&E website.  Also, season 3 of the "new" Cold Case Files started yesterday, but I don't see the episode on A&E's site yet.

[Tdoc72]

On 8/20/2022 at 11:59 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

This is a very entertaining true crime mini series.  I think it’s on Hulu or Prime.  It’s based on the Australian woman who scammed investors, including her parents, friends and others out of their life’s savings to the tune of 40 million dollars, before she disappeared, just a day after authorities executed a search warrant on her home. Most of the money was not recovered.  Months later her foot was found on a beach still inside her shoe.  The movie purports she is still alive and that her foot was planted there on purpose.  Lol.  
 

I will say that was one cold lady. Sort of like a female Bernie Madoff.  He was her inspiration.   
 

I just watched last night. It was pretty good, although I can’t decide if I think she killer herself or just chopped off her foot. Honestly, I could see her doing both. I wonder if the medical examiner ever said if it appeared cleanly sliced off or just decomposed.  Maybe too many fish nibbles would make it hard to tell. 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Tdoc72

[KittyMom4]

On 8/15/2022 at 6:52 PM, auntjess said:

I looked up Phrogging, and it's not for me.  

Me too and me too! 

[kathyk24]

The Con was so good tonight. I use coupons and had no idea how easy it was to create fake ones. Covid changed how many coupons were available in the paper, I think stores will go to all electronic coupons, I can't wait for next week it's about Jim Bakkar.

[LexieLily]

The new season of Dissapeared starts on Wednesday 9/7 at 9:00. Yay! 

[Vermicious Knid]

ID has series called Go Forth and Murder, and Wives with Knives. Because all the good titles were taken?

[Annber03]

I don't know if "Go Forth and Murder" is an actual series - I think that one's just them showing an old episode of some other show and repackaging it under another title to make it seem like it's something new, 'cause they've done that before. 

But even so, yeah, it's a weird title, for sure :p. 

[LuvMyShows]

9 hours ago, Annber03 said:

I don't know if "Go Forth and Murder" is an actual series - I think that one's just them showing an old episode of some other show and repackaging it under another title to make it seem like it's something new, 'cause they've done that before.

A little confused here.  The only thing I found on ID called "Go Forth and Murder" is an episode of the "If I Should Die" series from 2020.  Is there also an actual series with that same name?

[LuvMyShows]

Did anyone see the most recent Reasonable Doubt?  It's called The Jerk, and I'm not sure I have ever seen a case with less evidence result in a conviction.  There was zero evidence for the shoved-cocaine-down-her-throat theory.  I wish they had asked the juror that they talked to, what was the evidence you were shown that was compelling, because he did indicate that there was compelling evidence, in addition to the bad personality stuff that sank the convict.  They never said if the defense lawyer was for or against the convict taking the stand in his own defense, but if he was for it, then he should be disbarred since according to everyone, his jerkishness was immediately evident.

[SunnyBeBe]

I’m rewatching some old Disappeared episodes and watching Reasonable Doubt ( The Jerk). ………..so, on The Jerk.  There still was no evidence that husband was abusive to the wife.  Those notes found in the safe, don’t show physical abuse by husband.  The hypnosis confirmed the mother had a headache and that was likely due to the stroke.  The alibi still holds up, so I don’t get why they blew that off.  The actual juror admits he voted guilty due to personality.  The medical expert confirms it was an accidental overdose.  I’m glad the team is going to help the adult children.  The dad is a jerk, but apparently, he didn’t murder his wife.  

Edited August 28, 2022 by SunnyBeBe

[SunnyBeBe]

I think Mary Kay Letourneau: Notes On A Scandal is scheduled tonight on ID.  I’m thinking that I’ve already seen enough on that story, though.  

[LuvMyShows]

On 8/26/2022 at 1:21 AM, kathyk24 said:

The Con was so good tonight. I use coupons and had no idea how easy it was to create fake ones. Covid changed how many coupons were available in the paper, I think stores will go to all electronic coupons, I can't wait for next week it's about Jim Bakkar.

Really surprised I had never heard of this lady before.  Also had no idea that coupon fraud was such a problem.  I thought it was funny how when that guy from the "CIC" first contacted the FBI, the FBI guy thought to himself, "CIC?  Is that some counter-intelligence organization?" and then he could not believe that it was actually Coupon Information Center.

[Annber03]

12 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

A little confused here.  The only thing I found on ID called "Go Forth and Murder" is an episode of the "If I Should Die" series from 2020.  Is there also an actual series with that same name?

No, there's not a series with that name. They just took that particular episode you mentioned and aired it under another title, for some reason. Why they do that sometimes with shows on that channel, I don't know, but it's a thing. 

12 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

Did anyone see the most recent Reasonable Doubt?  It's called The Jerk, and I'm not sure I have ever seen a case with less evidence result in a conviction.  There was zero evidence for the shoved-cocaine-down-her-throat theory.  I wish they had asked the juror that they talked to, what was the evidence you were shown that was compelling, because he did indicate that there was compelling evidence, in addition to the bad personality stuff that sank the convict.  They never said if the defense lawyer was for or against the convict taking the stand in his own defense, but if he was for it, then he should be disbarred since according to everyone, his jerkishness was immediately evident.

Yeah, if that's the case I'm thinking of, I remember seeing it on an episode of "American Justice", I think it was, years and years ago. It was interesting to get another perspective on the case, and the guy. He was absolutely a jerk, for sure, and when I saw the "American Justice" episode I remember thinking he seemed pretty guilty, but this one did a good job of giving me some pause and reconsidering a few things. 

7 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I think Mary Kay Letourneau: Notes On A Scandal is scheduled tonight on ID.  I’m thinking that I’ve already seen enough on that story, though.  

Yep. I remember hearing about this case when I was a kid, and I know the basic details, but I might still watch to see what else they might discuss or explore in relation to it. 

But yeah, I definitely get the sentiment of being tired out about certain cases. Especially high profile ones like this, or OJ, or Scott Peterson, or so forth. 

[LexieLily]

2 hours ago, Annber03 said:

But yeah, I definitely get the sentiment of being tired out about certain cases. Especially high profile ones like this, or OJ, or Scott Peterson, or so forth. 

Or poor Jon-Benet.

[SunnyBeBe]

9 hours ago, Annber03 said:

No, there's not a series with that name. They just took that particular episode you mentioned and aired it under another title, for some reason. Why they do that sometimes with shows on that channel, I don't know, but it's a thing. 

Yeah, if that's the case I'm thinking of, I remember seeing it on an episode of "American Justice", I think it was, years and years ago. It was interesting to get another perspective on the case, and the guy. He was absolutely a jerk, for sure, and when I saw the "American Justice" episode I remember thinking he seemed pretty guilty, but this one did a good job of giving me some pause and reconsidering a few things. 

Yep. I remember hearing about this case when I was a kid, and I know the basic details, but I might still watch to see what else they might discuss or explore in relation to it. 

But yeah, I definitely get the sentiment of being tired out about certain cases. Especially high profile ones like this, or OJ, or Scott Peterson, or so forth. 

If you were able to watch the special, please let us know your impression.  It was my understanding that it was mainly interviews from Mary Kay’s friends.  

[SunnyBeBe]

15 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

Really surprised I had never heard of this lady before.  Also had no idea that coupon fraud was such a problem.  I thought it was funny how when that guy from the "CIC" first contacted the FBI, the FBI guy thought to himself, "CIC?  Is that some counter-intelligence organization?" and then he could not believe that it was actually Coupon Information Center.

I didn’t see The Con, but I did see a special once about a lady who ran a coupon scam out of her house with dozens of staff.  She was making huge sums of money…..selling fake coupons I think.  

[auntjess]

New ATL Homicide tonight, 9 I think, on TV1.

[LexieLily]

While we are on the topic of maybe-overdone cases, People Investigates is doing their episode on the Pam Hupp case tonight. Week after next is the Candy Montgomery/Betty Gore murder.

[Edited to tag @Annber03]

Edited August 29, 2022 by LexieLily

[poeticlicensed]

I watched the Mary Kay Letourneau show. I remember when it happened but there were a few things I wasn't aware of. It was pretty disgusting to hear some of her friends, former friends and even attorneys involved describe it as a crime AND a love story.Love story? Seriously? The woman was a pedophile and she groomed that child. It wasn't a love story except in her twisted mind. It was child sexual abuse. Just because they got married doesn't erase what she did. My God if the genders had been reversed and a male teacher of 34 had groomed and had sex witha 13 year old, gotten her pregnant twice and then she ended up marrying her abuser, the villagers would have had pitchforks in their hands. The only people they interviewed who gave her no pity were the two psychologists who tried to work with her. Both said she was a pedophile.

[LuvMyShows]

13 minutes ago, poeticlicensed said:

I watched the Mary Kay Letourneau show. I remember when it happened but there were a few things I wasn't aware of. It was pretty disgusting to hear some of her friends, former friends and even attorneys involved describe it as a crime AND a love story.Love story? Seriously? The woman was a pedophile and she groomed that child. It wasn't a love story except in her twisted mind. It was child sexual abuse. Just because they got married doesn't erase what she did. My God if the genders had been reversed and a male teacher of 34 had groomed and had sex witha 13 year old, gotten her pregnant twice and then she ended up marrying her abuser, the villagers would have had pitchforks in their hands. The only people they interviewed who gave her no pity were the two psychologists who tried to work with her. Both said she was a pedophile.

I won't watch, but I did Wiki her just to refresh myself on her story.  I had not realized she died.  And I can't help but wonder what on earth makes a grown woman think "I am going to blow up my entire life for this 12-year-old boy."  The saddest part is reading interviews with Vili (the boy who became her husband), and his realization that he was basically robbed of the chance to explore a normal life, form his own impressions, and do what he wanted.

[poeticlicensed]

Has anyone watched the Killer Nanny series on ID? I've always had mixed feelings about that case. 

[Annber03]

9 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

If you were able to watch the special, please let us know your impression.  It was my understanding that it was mainly interviews from Mary Kay’s friends.  

Will do :). I may watch it later tonight, so I'll share my thoughts then. 

And thanks, @LexieLily, for the heads up about tonight's "People Magazine" show. So far I've only seen the coverage of that story via "Dateline" and that miniseries from earlier this year, so it'll be interesting to see how another outlet covers it. 

3 hours ago, poeticlicensed said:

Has anyone watched the Killer Nanny series on ID? I've always had mixed feelings about that case. 

I did. I know what you mean about mixed feelings, it's a very odd case, indeed. Funny, that one happened when I was 12, 13 years old (her trial started on my 13th birthday exactly, in fact), but I have no memory of hearing about it in the news when it happened. 

But yeah, definitely a case that gives one a lot to think about, for sure. 

[CrazyInAlabama]

4 hours ago, poeticlicensed said:

I watched the Mary Kay Letourneau show. I remember when it happened but there were a few things I wasn't aware of. It was pretty disgusting to hear some of her friends, former friends and even attorneys involved describe it as a crime AND a love story.Love story? Seriously? The woman was a pedophile and she groomed that child. It wasn't a love story except in her twisted mind. It was child sexual abuse. Just because they got married doesn't erase what she did. My God if the genders had been reversed and a male teacher of 34 had groomed and had sex witha 13 year old, gotten her pregnant twice and then she ended up marrying her abuser, the villagers would have had pitchforks in their hands. The only people they interviewed who gave her no pity were the two psychologists who tried to work with her. Both said she was a pedophile.

Entertainment Tonight paid the couple a ton of money for the exclusive television rights to air their wedding.    That disgusted me so much I've never watched the show since then.   It was reported to be $500,000, but E.T. spokesmen say it's much less.   

[SunnyBeBe]

I recently watched Murdered For Millions.  Twenty-one year old gets a friend to murder his parents and sister to collect his inheritance in 1992.  Police figure it out and charge them along with the bar tender friend who got them the gun.  However, they make a deal with the guy who provided the gun in exchange for his testimony and do not prosecute him, since he didn’t know what they intended to do with it.  Today, he practices law in southern CA!   The other two got life without parole.  

[LexieLily]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I recently watched Murdered For Millions.  Twenty-one year old gets a friend to murder his parents and sister to collect his inheritance in 1992.  Police figure it out and charge them along with the bar tender friend who got them the gun.  However, they make a deal with the guy who provided the gun in exchange for his testimony and do not prosecute him, since he didn’t know what they intended to do with it.  Today, he practices law in southern CA!   The other two got life without parole.  

What do you think two friends are going to do with a gun if they are getting it 'underground' from you?!

[Annber03]

Okay, so I watched that special on Mary Kay Letorneau, and hoo boy, there's a LOT to unpack with this story. 

I didn't realize that she and Vill had first met when he was eight years old, and a student in her second grade class. That just adds an extra level of creepy to their later meeting again when he was 12. And her poems she wrote to him. "Your bones are the strength of a Samoan god." What? Who the hell writes that to a 12 year old kid? 

Not even remotely surprised by the scandal her father found himself embroiled in. Not one bit. Chalk it up to seeing way, WAY too many of those "holier-than-thou" politicians and religious people getting caught up in their own sex scandals. I knew something was coming with him the moment they started in on how much he and his wife paraded their "Look at us, we're so moral, family values, blah, blah!" attitude all over. It's very interesting, though, that his scandal had eerie parallels to Mary Kay's. The mistress in his case was a number of years older, it seems, but still...

(On a related note, I was poking around on Wikipedia about this case and her family, and if one really wants to trip themselves out, feel free to look up what all Mary Kay's brother Joseph Schmitz,  has been up to over the years. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, I'll just put it that way, and that's all the more I'll say on that, 'cause politics.)

I definitely agree that a lot of what Mary Kay went through with her parents, between her dad's scandal and her mom's complete lack of affection, shaped her in a lot of negative ways. I think it explains a lot of her narcissism and her attitude that the rules don't apply to her, and her belief that she wasn't doing anything wrong. And her parents' warped attitudes about sex and marriage certainly didn't help matters, either. Being made to marry someone she clearly didn't love* simply because they'd had a kid together, the inability to determine what an actual healthy relationship looked like and should be like, even the idea that she must just keep on pumping out kids, it all clearly stemmed from her upbringing. I like how her former friend pointed out that the abstinence message wouldn't work on Mary Kay. Of course it wouldn't. It never does, not when it's taught like that. I don't get how people still don't understand that the "abstinence only, no sex ed of any kind" message is far more damaging to people than teaching them actual proper sex education ever would be. 

*Given how defiant she became later on in terms of finding any way possible to see Vill, it's interesting that she didn't fight her parents when they told her she had to marry her first husband. Makes one wonder what might've happened if she had. 

I was glad to see that the vast majority of the comments from those interviewed acknowledged her relationship with Vill for the fucked up, disturbing thing it actually was. And I like that they highlighted the double standard that came with stories like this - I remember there being a spat of other stories in the wake of this one involving female teachers with their students, and the attitudes some had were....disgusting, to say the least. It does feel like the attitudes have shifted over the years on that front, to where we see this as the awful thing it is, and I do like that that's the case. There were a few people whose comments had me giving a bit of side-eye, notably that couple who were neighbors of Vill and his family, but for the most part I tended to agree with most of the people being interviewed. 

But man, the lengths she went to to try and see Vill, even after she was explicitly barred from seeing him. Just so brazen, all the way back to when she was bringing him into her home when her husband and kids were around! I mean, I agree she needed a LOT of psychological help, but clearly she also should've been kept somewhere where it'd be easier to monitor her, too. The fact she had to register as a sex offender probably should've been a clue that maybe she was more of a risk than they'd initially thought she would be. I had to laugh when they were all, "Oh, she doesn't pose a flight risk, so she can go free." Cut to her winding up in jail again and armed with a passport and some money. So much for not being a flight risk! 

And all the kids. My god. I didn't realize she had THAT many. I feel bad for them, and I'm not surprised we've never heard a peep out of them about any of this over the years. They deserve their privacy, and I hope they've found their own ways to try and deal with all that's happened, if they even can. I feel for Vill's mom, suddenly finding herself having to raise two kids at a time in her life when I'm pretty sure that was not on her "future plans" list. 

Other random observations:

-Matt Lauer interviewing Vill is...um. Yeah. That's...something, to say the very least.

-Seriously, "Entertainment Tonight", what the actual fuck? 

-It was interesting to hear from her fellow inmates. I was struck by their observation that when they came to visit Vill and Mary Kay at their home after they got married, they never acted like one would expect a married couple to act. It seemed like Vill was still acting like a big kid and Mary Kay was happy to just take care of him in an almost motherly way. Which really seems to just sum up their relationship completely. 

-Also not surprised they were eventually considering divorce. There's only so long they would've been able to keep this warped fantasy going before reality hit them head on and they realized they had nothing else connecting them. That clip of them trying to come up with things they had in common was incredibly awkward. Wow. 

-The woman announcing the birth of Mary Kay's first baby with Vill sounded awfully peppy about it. 

-As someone from Iowa, it threw me a bit to hear them mention a place called Des Moines :p. Kind of surreal that the police, when coming upon Mary Kay and Vill during their very first encounter in her car, apparently didn't think to press any further and see what was going on, and just followed Vill's mom's suggestion to release her son back to Mary Kay. 

-"I think it's kind of sick." Most accurate line of the entire documentary, right there. 

So yeah. Anyone else who's watched this, or will watch it, and wants to discuss it further alongside the bit that has been discussed in various posts here already, feel free to jump in with your thoughts. 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Annber03

[SunnyBeBe]

Annber03,

I watched the Mary Kaye docu too. No matter how much anyone has seen on this story, this docu is different. I learned a lot I never knew.  Annber03, Your summary is good, except I had a few more thoughts about how some of those commenting in the docu seemed to be too positive about Mary K. and Villi being grown. No, he wasn’t so mature at age 12 that he knew what he was doing.  That neighbor couple thought it all worked out in the end.   NO, she was a child abuser. Marrying your victim is never okay.   What were they smoking?  And, the blonde woman attorney…..I think she represented his mom at some point in the civil trial, but she was way too kind to the abuser.  She said that Mary and Villi made it work!  What?  No, an abusive child predator got her hooks into a child and used mind control to manipulate him for the rest of her life.  The therapist who talked about how Mary resisted treatment had her number.  Mary saw herself as a victim and Villi a tool to manipulate and be her object of desire.  Villi was robbed of his life.  She took over and deprived him of a normal development.  I detest her more now than before.  
 

Oh, why did the couple of people who spoke about Steve, Mary’s first husband, have to be so derogatory about him?  One friend said he was not good enough for Mary!  And, that he left with their 4 children for Alaska.  Well, what was he supposed to do?  He seemed like a fine person, who took care of the kids and got them away from Crazytown.  All that negative talk about him made them seem crazy to me.  I didn’t like that at all.  Also, the student who was glowing about her…no.  And the the old boyfriend who wanted to high five  Villi for sleeping with his teacher?  What a jerk! 

Edited August 30, 2022 by SunnyBeBe

[poeticlicensed]

3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Annber03,

I watched the Mary Kaye docu too. No matter how much anyone has seen on this story, this docu is different. I learned a lot I never knew.  Annber03, Your summary is good, except I had a few more thoughts about how some of those commenting in the docu seemed to be too positive about Mary K. and Villi being grown. No, he wasn’t so mature at age 12 that he knew what he was doing.  That neighbor couple thought it all worked out in the end.   NO, she was a child abuser. Marrying your victim is never okay.   What were they smoking?  And, the blonde woman attorney…..I think she represented his mom at some point in the civil trial, but she was way too kind to the abuser.  She said that Mary and Villi made it work!  What?  No, an abusive child predator got her hooks into a child and used mind control to manipulate him for the rest of her life.  The therapist who talked about how Mary resisted treatment had her number.  Mary saw herself as a victim and Villi a tool to manipulate and be her object of desire.  Villi was robbed of his life.  She took over and deprived him of a normal development.  I detest her more now than before.  
 

Oh, why did the couple of people who spoke about Steve, Mary’s first husband, have to be so derogatory about him?  One friend said he was not good enough for Mary!  And, that he left with their 4 children for Alaska.  Well, what was he supposed to do?  He seemed like a fine person, who took care of the kids and got them away from Crazytown.  All that negative talk about him made them seem crazy to me.  I didn’t like that at all.  Also, the student who was glowing about her…no.  And the the old boyfriend who wanted to high five  Villi for sleeping with his teacher?  What a jerk! 

I have read that Steve basically cut himself and the kids out of her life and the kids have grown up to be fine people. They even embraced the kids she had with Vili. Most people who know them say the kids turned out good because of him and despite her. 

Also looking at MK through our 2022 eyes, we can see that she engaged in grooming behavior, much like members of the clergy did. Person of authority (a teacher) picks out a kid from a unstable background, in this case a single mom, struggling and a dad in jail, and makes him feel special. Does all kind of things for him, let's him hang at her house and takes him places 1 on 1. Then slowly she says oh you can kiss me, you can touch me and I can touch you, normalizing it. Before long it lead to sex. Classic grooming. Thats why with all we know now about sexual abuse of children, I was gobsmacked to listen to people who said it was a love story. 

[SunnyBeBe]

54 minutes ago, poeticlicensed said:

I have read that Steve basically cut himself and the kids out of her life and the kids have grown up to be fine people. They even embraced the kids she had with Vili. Most people who know them say the kids turned out good because of him and despite her. 

Also looking at MK through our 2022 eyes, we can see that she engaged in grooming behavior, much like members of the clergy did. Person of authority (a teacher) picks out a kid from a unstable background, in this case a single mom, struggling and a dad in jail, and makes him feel special. Does all kind of things for him, let's him hang at her house and takes him places 1 on 1. Then slowly she says oh you can kiss me, you can touch me and I can touch you, normalizing it. Before long it lead to sex. Classic grooming. Thats why with all we know now about sexual abuse of children, I was gobsmacked to listen to people who said it was a love story. 

Exactly.  The docu seemed to romanticize the story when it was abusive, criminal and cruel behavior.  That normalizing theme was a turn off.  

[LuvMyShows]

On the most recent episode of Reasonable Doubt, "Bringing a Gun to a Fist Fight", I really wish we had heard the entire 9-1-1 call, cause it was a little confusing trying to figure out at what point in the fight did the convict call 9-1-1.  The convict's narrative included fighting over the gun, but the parts of the call that we heard, had nothing at all like that.  I also found it very suspicious that the convict had given a completely different story previously for why he got out of the car in the first place.  Also, given that this exact situation apparently happened to him before, I can't help but think that something external occurred both times, and rather than just drive away, his macho-ness/ego caused him to choose to get out of his car and confront whoever it was.  That is never going to end well.

[Annber03]

10 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

Also, given that this exact situation apparently happened to him before, I can't help but think that something external occurred both times, and rather than just drive away, his macho-ness/ego caused him to choose to get out of his car and confront whoever it was.  That is never going to end well.

I had the exact same thought when he started talking about that earlier conversation. Yes. Sure, there have been stories of people who wind up in a couple separate situations that share eerie similarities, but in this guy's case, it just seemed awfully coincidental. Like, there's a common denominator here, bud, and you're it. 

I definitely agree he had some kind of macho need to confront the guy. Do I think he set out that day intending to kill somebody? No. But I do tend to think that most people who feel this deep urge to carry their gun in public are basically creating a self-fulfilling prophecy, as it were. They showed pictures of this guy in his younger days, and he looked to have been a wrestler at some point. He seemed big enough to where he could probably take somebody, or at least put up a decent fight, without a gun. 

But no, instead he needs to go around with a gun on him instead, almost as though he's daring someone to challenge him, and surprise, surprise, he got exactly that. When he started going on about "his right as an American", that was a very telling explanation to me. He wants to carry a gun in public, fine, but then he has to face the consequences and acknowledge the risks of what might happen when he does. 

It also didn't help that there was no real explanation for why the hell this guy even supposedly confronted him in the first place. They interviewed that one woman who knew both guys to some degree, which seemed to imply they ran in the same circles or at least had some mutual friends in common. Which, if that were the case, could explain why they got into it as they did, if there was some kind of history or bad blood between them. 

But they never really delved into that possibility further, and the way the guy told his story, he made it sound like this man was just some random nut who came up out of nowhere ready to fight him. Which, again, is something that can happen and has happened, but here...again, it just seemed awfully coincidental, and nonsensical. 

And while I can sympathize with his mom being so broken over her son being in prison, and so determined to believe in his innocence, I also kind of got the vibe from her that she refused to believe her son could ever do anything wrong. Which I feel might explain some of his behavior to some degree in turn. 

Edited September 2, 2022 by Annber03

[kathyk24]

2 hours ago, Annber03 said:

I had the exact same thought when he started talking about that earlier conversation. Yes. Sure, there have been stories of people who wind up in a couple separate situations that share eerie similarities, but in this guy's case, it just seemed awfully coincidental. Like, there's a common denominator here, bud, and you're it. 

I definitely agree he had some kind of macho need to confront the guy. Do I think he set out that day intending to kill somebody? No. But I do tend to think that most people who feel this deep urge to carry their gun in public are basically creating a self-fulfilling prophecy, as it were. They showed pictures of this guy in his younger days, and he looked to have been a wrestler at some point. He seemed big enough to where he could probably take somebody, or at least put up a decent fight, without a gun. 

But no, instead he needs to go around with a gun on him instead, almost as though he's daring someone to challenge him, and surprise, surprise, he got exactly that. When he started going on about "his right as an American", that was a very telling explanation to me. He wants to carry a gun in public, fine, but then he has to face the consequences and acknowledge the risks of what might happen when he does. 

It also didn't help that there was no real explanation for why the hell this guy even supposedly confronted him in the first place. They interviewed that one woman who knew both guys to some degree, which seemed to imply they ran in the same circles or at least had some mutual friends in common. Which, if that were the case, could explain why they got into it as they did, if there was some kind of history or bad blood between them. 

But they never really delved into that possibility further, and the way the guy told his story, he made it sound like this man was just some random nut who came up out of nowhere ready to fight him. Which, again, is something that can happen and has happened, but here...again, it just seemed awfully coincidental, and nonsensical. 

And while I can sympathize with his mom being so broken over her son being in prison, and so determined to believe in his innocence, I also kind of got the vibe from her that she refused to believe her son could ever do anything wrong. Which I feel might explain some of his behavior to some degree in turn. 

I think families don't want to believe that their loved ones could do anything wrong. I think it's a way to protect themselves. It's difficult to believe that someone you love could be a criminal if you've never seen that side of them. The Con was so good tonight I remember the PTL scandal I'm amazed anyone would send him money.

[Tabbygirl521]

On 8/29/2022 at 10:44 PM, Annber03 said:

Okay, so I watched that special on Mary Kay Letorneau, and hoo boy, there's a LOT to unpack with this story. 

I didn't realize that she and Vill had first met when he was eight years old, and a student in her second grade class. That just adds an extra level of creepy to their later meeting again when he was 12. And her poems she wrote to him. "Your bones are the strength of a Samoan god." What? Who the hell writes that to a 12 year old kid? 

Not even remotely surprised by the scandal her father found himself embroiled in. Not one bit. Chalk it up to seeing way, WAY too many of those "holier-than-thou" politicians and religious people getting caught up in their own sex scandals. I knew something was coming with him the moment they started in on how much he and his wife paraded their "Look at us, we're so moral, family values, blah, blah!" attitude all over. It's very interesting, though, that his scandal had eerie parallels to Mary Kay's. The mistress in his case was a number of years older, it seems, but still...

(On a related note, I was poking around on Wikipedia about this case and her family, and if one really wants to trip themselves out, feel free to look up what all Mary Kay's brother Joseph Schmitz,  has been up to over the years. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, I'll just put it that way, and that's all the more I'll say on that, 'cause politics.)

I definitely agree that a lot of what Mary Kay went through with her parents, between her dad's scandal and her mom's complete lack of affection, shaped her in a lot of negative ways. I think it explains a lot of her narcissism and her attitude that the rules don't apply to her, and her belief that she wasn't doing anything wrong. And her parents' warped attitudes about sex and marriage certainly didn't help matters, either. Being made to marry someone she clearly didn't love* simply because they'd had a kid together, the inability to determine what an actual healthy relationship looked like and should be like, even the idea that she must just keep on pumping out kids, it all clearly stemmed from her upbringing. I like how her former friend pointed out that the abstinence message wouldn't work on Mary Kay. Of course it wouldn't. It never does, not when it's taught like that. I don't get how people still don't understand that the "abstinence only, no sex ed of any kind" message is far more damaging to people than teaching them actual proper sex education ever would be. 

*Given how defiant she became later on in terms of finding any way possible to see Vill, it's interesting that she didn't fight her parents when they told her she had to marry her first husband. Makes one wonder what might've happened if she had. 

I was glad to see that the vast majority of the comments from those interviewed acknowledged her relationship with Vill for the fucked up, disturbing thing it actually was. And I like that they highlighted the double standard that came with stories like this - I remember there being a spat of other stories in the wake of this one involving female teachers with their students, and the attitudes some had were....disgusting, to say the least. It does feel like the attitudes have shifted over the years on that front, to where we see this as the awful thing it is, and I do like that that's the case. There were a few people whose comments had me giving a bit of side-eye, notably that couple who were neighbors of Vill and his family, but for the most part I tended to agree with most of the people being interviewed. 

But man, the lengths she went to to try and see Vill, even after she was explicitly barred from seeing him. Just so brazen, all the way back to when she was bringing him into her home when her husband and kids were around! I mean, I agree she needed a LOT of psychological help, but clearly she also should've been kept somewhere where it'd be easier to monitor her, too. The fact she had to register as a sex offender probably should've been a clue that maybe she was more of a risk than they'd initially thought she would be. I had to laugh when they were all, "Oh, she doesn't pose a flight risk, so she can go free." Cut to her winding up in jail again and armed with a passport and some money. So much for not being a flight risk! 

And all the kids. My god. I didn't realize she had THAT many. I feel bad for them, and I'm not surprised we've never heard a peep out of them about any of this over the years. They deserve their privacy, and I hope they've found their own ways to try and deal with all that's happened, if they even can. I feel for Vill's mom, suddenly finding herself having to raise two kids at a time in her life when I'm pretty sure that was not on her "future plans" list. 

Other random observations:

-Matt Lauer interviewing Vill is...um. Yeah. That's...something, to say the very least.

-Seriously, "Entertainment Tonight", what the actual fuck? 

-It was interesting to hear from her fellow inmates. I was struck by their observation that when they came to visit Vill and Mary Kay at their home after they got married, they never acted like one would expect a married couple to act. It seemed like Vill was still acting like a big kid and Mary Kay was happy to just take care of him in an almost motherly way. Which really seems to just sum up their relationship completely. 

-Also not surprised they were eventually considering divorce. There's only so long they would've been able to keep this warped fantasy going before reality hit them head on and they realized they had nothing else connecting them. That clip of them trying to come up with things they had in common was incredibly awkward. Wow. 

-The woman announcing the birth of Mary Kay's first baby with Vill sounded awfully peppy about it. 

-As someone from Iowa, it threw me a bit to hear them mention a place called Des Moines :p. Kind of surreal that the police, when coming upon Mary Kay and Vill during their very first encounter in her car, apparently didn't think to press any further and see what was going on, and just followed Vill's mom's suggestion to release her son back to Mary Kay. 

-"I think it's kind of sick." Most accurate line of the entire documentary, right there. 

So yeah. Anyone else who's watched this, or will watch it, and wants to discuss it further alongside the bit that has been discussed in various posts here already, feel free to jump in with your thoughts. 

So I’m acquainted with the two ex-inmates who befriended MKL in prison. One of them is peripheral to my family and has caused us many years of grief. I have no use for either of them. They plotted to befriend Mary when she arrived in prison with an eye to writing a book and making a fortune. I reread the book this week (from the library as I refuse to give them a dime) and the description in the book of how they first met and talked to Mary does not match what they said on camera.

Our family knew of the book plan when it was in the works. We knew about the notes in the milk bottles. They were apologists for her way back then. One of the inmates currently has grandkids around the age Vili was when the grooming began and I’d love to know how she’ll feel if one of them knocks up a teacher in a few years.

I do believe their assessment that after marriage Mary was basically the housemother - thereby illustrating that this was NOT some grand mutual love story but rather a woman with severe arrested development taking advantage of a kid with raging hormones. So he thought he was in love with her at age 12? When I was 12 I thought I was in love with Paul Revere and the Raiders’ lead guitarist (whom I never met!). You don’t know what love is at that age but you can be damn vulnerable.

some of those smuggled letters to Vili were Mary threatening him with castration for sleeping with age-appropriate girls while she was in prison - in other words he was trying to live a normal life and move on. But she had her hooks in deep.

sorry if this is incoherent. This is such a very sore subject for me. 

[LuvMyShows]

17 hours ago, kathyk24 said:

The Con was so good tonight I remember the PTL scandal I'm amazed anyone would send him money.

Classic example of the saying, "No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public!"

[SunnyBeBe]

Has anyone watched House of Hammer?  It’s a docu series I think on Discovery+.  I have vowed to not get Discovery+, but I’m so curious about the allegations of evil in that family, that I think I must.  Here’s a trailer.  
 

[Vermicious Knid]

WaPost article covering House of Hammer. Hitting the highlights:
 

Quote

“House of Hammer,” a three-part docuseries that premiered Friday on Discovery Plus, starts with the Armie Hammer storyline, then climbs up five generations of his family tree. For decades, it argues, the men of the mega-wealthy Hammer dynasty have been up to no good — living lawlessly and greedily, and harming others. Here are the series’ most jarring revelations about each....

Armie Hammer

Armie allegedly has a history of abusing women while playing it off as kinky sex or fetish play....

Julius Hammer

Armie’s great-great-grandfather...Over the years, the Soviet Union was thought to have used Julius and his family to channel money into New York to fund communist groups — as well as steal American trade secrets and technology....Thanks to Julius, Armand “was a money launderer and courier of funds channeled to Soviet espionage in the U.S.,” Finder says. “It was secret, it was illegal, it was dangerous.”

Armand Hammer

Armand, Armie’s great-grandfather, later became a mega-wealthy oil tycoon — and, according to the docuseries, was known to be abusive toward his wives and mistresses, involved in corruption schemes and disturbingly ruthless with his business interests....Armand’s fortune also earned him political connections and influence. Neil Lyndon, Armand’s former political and media consultant, alleges in the series that Armand made illegal contributions to political campaigns frequently; Armand even pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor after the funds used to pay the burglars in the Watergate scandal were traced back to him.

Julian Hammer

Armie’s grandfather Julian also abused women and was known to be violent, his ex-fiancee and daughter allege in the docuseries. He often lounged around in luxury pajamas, earning the nickname “the Hugh Hefner of Pacific Palisades,” and allegedly sometimes helped his father, Armand, bug telephones. On his own time, the documentary says, he liked to host cocaine-fueled orgies at home, sometimes with his young daughter Casey around. He also violently abused his wife, Glenna Sue, while Casey and her brother Michael were home. Casey alleges that her mother would take the children to a motel until Julian cooled down. “Women were disposable in the Hammer family,” Casey says.

Michael Hammer

Michael, Armie’s father, is understood to be the chief keeper and defender of the Hammer family legacy....The docuseries also alleges that Michael possesses a 7-foot-tall “sex throne” with a hole in the seat and a cage underneath. According to a 2021 Vanity Fair story about the Hammer family, Michael has been photographed sitting in it and holding the head of a blond woman; his lawyer, in response to that and other questions from the magazine, referred to “unsolicited gag gifts.”

[SunnyBeBe]

I’ve started House of Hammer docu series.  All I can say is OMG!  It is shocking!  I highly recommend it.  It covers generations of outrageous conduct about much more than the Armie stuff.  Definitely, the most shocking docu I’ve ever seen.  

[LexieLily]

New episodes of An Unexpected Killer (Oxygen, Fridays @ 7:00) start up again in two weeks. It looks like the second half of season three.

[kathyk24]

23 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

Classic example of the saying, "No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public!"

I don't think the victims of faith based scams are stupid. They believe that the pastor is the voice of God. Jim Bakker took advantage of that trust.

[SunnyBeBe]

On 8/21/2022 at 12:18 PM, LuvMyShows said:

Maybe everyone already knows this and I'm just late to the party, but there are new seasons of American Justice. Season 16 just started, and season 15 is available on the A&E website.  Also, season 3 of the "new" Cold Case Files started yesterday, but I don't see the episode on A&E's site yet.

I’m watching a new episode of Cold Case Files now.  I couldn’t locate a thread for it.  

[nokat]

On 9/3/2022 at 5:42 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

I’m watching a new episode of Cold Case Files now.  I couldn’t locate a thread for it.  

I think it's all here and I like to see Cold Case Files here.

[SunnyBeBe]

8 hours ago, nokat said:

I think it's all here and I like to see Cold Case Files here.

It’s a particularly cruel and senseless murder.  It seems wonderful people are often the victims in these crimes.