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On 3/12/2017 at 9:57 PM, Brattinella said:

This new 3 part special about CA.  Does everyone remember the juror who said she "couldn't judge anyone"?  Everything stunk in that trial, especially Baez.  This better not be an apology piece to that monster.

I remember one juror saying after the trial: "We shouldn't have had to connect all the dots." What a dumb ass. I guess critical thinking was too much work for her and apparently all the other jurors as well. That verdict was a travesty.

Edited by Mannahatta
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9 hours ago, Brattinella said:

Queena, the gist of the story re: Casey Anthony was she killed her 3 yr old daughter, dumped her in a swamp, and partied for a month.  Her mother called and asked for Caylee, and Casey told her Caylee had been missing for a month.  Casey's lawyer Jose Baez, told a big fat lie in his opening statement, which pretty much stayed in the jurors' minds.  Casey was acquitted.  Everyone knows she did it.  Monster.

My daughter and I held each other and sobbed when she was acquitted. Almost more of a travesty of justice than the OJ acquittal because she was an innocent child with a narcissistic mother who was a lying liar that lied. There was a stealth juror who hoped to make a lot of money on writing a book so had influence on the other jurors. Nancy Grace and her bull shit "bomb shell tonight" non stop coverage of it holds some of the blame too because they had a hard time finding jurors who had not heard about the case. I can only hope Karma craps on her like it did on OJ. Soooooo  pissed! ?

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1 minute ago, hoosiermom said:

My daughter and I held each other and sobbed when she was acquitted.

Us, too, HoosierMom!  HUGS!  Such a devastating trial and her smug smirking face and the stealth juror and NG, all of it!  We followed it every day on a couple other websites and were SO crushed when she was acquitted. 

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21 hours ago, walnutqueen said:

There is a fine line between witticism and a drunken stupor.  Sadly, I all too often cross that barrier with one too many sips (OK, slurps) of vodka. 

But like Lisa Rinna, baby, I OWN IT!!!!

I did a lot of drinking back in the day. Damn near killed me. Had to get clean and sober cause I had 2 kids to raise on my own. In 2 weeks it will be 19 years thanks to AA. 

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I do love you, and respect the  daylights out of of your AA sobriety , but Bill W and his 1930's something sensibilities and "Big Book"?  Cordially they belong on the dusty bookshelf next to my 1950's copy of Gone With the Wind.

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Here's another oldie but goodie. Do you remember Beverly Hills Gold and the OAP Claudia? They had really pretty stuff. She was kinda ditzy but was knowledgeable & fun to watch IMO. 

I live just south of Philadelphia and we are getting hit with ice right now.  I worry about my grown son & daughter who both have no choice in going to work regardless of the weather. My daughter is a nurse & my son does commercial refrigeration installation & repair. 

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3 hours ago, DandRsGrammy said:

Here's another oldie but goodie. Do you remember Beverly Hills Gold and the OAP Claudia? They had really pretty stuff. She was kinda ditzy but was knowledgeable & fun to watch IMO. 

I live just south of Philadelphia and we are getting hit with ice right now.  I worry about my grown son & daughter who both have no choice in going to work regardless of the weather. My daughter is a nurse & my son does commercial refrigeration installation & repair. 

Sorry,wrong topic.

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1 hour ago, hoosiermom said:

Ok. I am done binge watching Justified. Wonderful ending by the way. So now I have to binge watch all the ID shows to catch up along with all the other trash I recorded. ?

I'm trying too FF through some of the crap, just to make room on my DVR for more of the same.  Too many Uverse channels, too few lives.  I need a clone.

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On 3/12/2017 at 9:16 PM, Maizie131 said:

Well, I'm certain all of you who watch I.D. are thrilled to see that there will be a THREE day "all night special event!" of the Casey Anthony Story:  "The Untold Story" coming next month.  Now we know for sure that I.D. is scraping the bottom of the barrel ... literally ... for ratings.  WTF!!!!  Seriously?!?  Only thing that would make me watch is if they showed a segment on O.J. Simpson being released from prison as scheduled in June and his hooking up w/Anthony,  A match made in Hell, to be sure.

I hope that bitch has a horrible life.  No way am I giving her any publicity.  She needs to die for killing that sweet baby.

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3 minutes ago, ButterQueen said:

I hope that bitch has a horrible life.  No way am I giving her any publicity.  She needs to die for killing that sweet baby.

Well said! Now tell us how you really feel! 

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On 3/13/2017 at 2:36 PM, walnutqueen said:

Chloroform and accidental should never be uttered in the same sentence.  Just NO.

Judge Perry is a putz and let the CA trial get out of hand.  But then you had the ignorant jurors who acquitted her.

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2 minutes ago, ButterQueen said:

Judge Perry is a putz and let the CA trial get out of hand.  But then you had the ignorant jurors who acquitted her.

Sounds just like Ito, OJ. and 12 angry dumbfucks, only different.

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On 3/13/2017 at 1:36 PM, walnutqueen said:

Chloroform and accidental should never be uttered in the same sentence.  Just NO.

Chloroform should never be used in the same sentence as toddler! I have a child now, I can't take people killing kids and walking away. I may have to skip this. I thought that she accidentally killed her, and both she and her parents came up with a cover story. I thought that she drowned in the pool. Did they ever find her body? Nvm, off to Google. 

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3 hours ago, Queena said:

 I thought that she drowned in the pool. Did they ever find her body? Nvm, off to Google. 

Yes. About 2 blocks from where her parents live in a thickly wooded area. A place CA would go for solace or some shit like that when she was growing up. I believe she was in 2 trash bags,wrapped in a blanket  that the Anthony's were found to have owned and had duct tape across the skulls mouth area. ??

Edited by hoosiermom
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I wish that ID channel had a show on old cold cases that are now solved. For instance, the Grateful Dead kid, it would be nice to hear his full story now that it's solved on TV. Or maybe there's a show like that and I've missed it. 

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3 hours ago, Queena said:

I wish that ID channel had a show on old cold cases that are now solved. For instance, the Grateful Dead kid, it would be nice to hear his full story now that it's solved on TV. Or maybe there's a show like that and I've missed it. 

I had never heard of the 1995 disappearance of Jason Callahan of Myrtle Beach, South Carolina (known as “Grateful Doe” until 2015). I'd much rather see shows about new-to-me cases like this than rehashing OJ, JonBenét, Casey Anthony, etc.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jason_Callahan

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/12/us/grateful-doe-is-identified-20-years-after-road-trip-death.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/lifestyle/style/how-the-internet-may-have-solved-a-20-year-old-cold-case/2015/03/10/02a4a326-acb1-11e4-9c91-e9d2f9fde644_story.html

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16 hours ago, editorgrrl said:

I had never heard of the 1995 disappearance of Jason Callahan of Myrtle Beach, South Carolina (known as “Grateful Doe” until 2015). I'd much rather see shows about new-to-me cases like this than rehashing OJ, JonBenét, Casey Anthony, etc.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jason_Callahan

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/12/us/grateful-doe-is-identified-20-years-after-road-trip-death.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/lifestyle/style/how-the-internet-may-have-solved-a-20-year-old-cold-case/2015/03/10/02a4a326-acb1-11e4-9c91-e9d2f9fde644_story.html

I watched this case and another one, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Anjelica_Castillo

 

Or highlight cold case like the little boy in the box https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_in_the_Box_(Philadelphia) after all of these years, someone has to know something and someone has to be ready to talk

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Quote

I wish that ID channel had a show on old cold cases that are now solved. For instance, the Grateful Dead kid, it would be nice to hear his full story now that it's solved on TV. Or maybe there's a show like that and I've missed it. 

You might like the show Who killed Jane Doe?.

Anyone who is interested in the unidentified or missing should pop over to Doe Network or NamUs. 

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I haven't heard of some of these.  I wonder if there's DNA on any of these victims, because a child found dead in a box suggests parents who did it, and maybe they might have DNA on file.
The latest Jane Doe was one where I'd seen the case at least once, the afghan one.
I'm even getting tired of Russell Williams shows, and I used to watch them all.
I would like to see something that would gather up everything that was done on D.B. Cooper since the FBI closed the case.

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OK, I just got through catching up on several Crime watch daily with Chris Hanson so what the hell is up with dipshit Dippolito getting a 3rd trial. Lately juries have sucked! I called got for jury duty 3 weeks ago (here we are on a list to be called after the paper work they send us is completed for one year) but I didn't have to go because one of the lawyers called in sick. I know.  I'm not sure I can keep an open mind after all these crazy verdicts and miss trials lately. I might get in there and say if they on trial they must be guilty so hang them all judge!

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I had recorded the episode of Evil Lives Here titled "Trapped in Hell". It was so disturbing that I had to keep interrupting it. After 3 days. I finally finished it. It's insane to think that in this country, in this day and age, that an upper class woman with a law school degree, Susan Hamlin was her name, who had been close to her own family of origin - could become so completely trapped in a marriage with a psycho. Of course, intellectually I know that it's possible but wow. That show was insane - especially how the father ( Richard Hamlin, a successful lawyer - oddly enough) was able to convince, through fear and manipulation, all 4 children that the mother was the member of a cult who deserved to be beaten even killed by him. It was the kind of show that makes me question not only what's going on behind closed doors but just how thin is the line between sanity and insanity. What thought process kept the wife from leaving before it got so out of hand?..... Of course, there are people (probably not on this forum, lol) who may ask why I'm watching these type of programs at all if I find them so upsetting.... Well, at least the ending was happy.... sort of. The psycho husband was locked up for life. But of course the rest of the family still remains traumatized. In fact, I think I'm experiencing second-hand trauma from watching this show.

Edited by Mannahatta
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1 hour ago, Mannahatta said:

I had recorded the episode of Evil Lives Here titled "Trapped in Hell". It was so disturbing that I had to keep interrupting it. After 3 days. I finally finished it. It's insane to think that in this country, in this day and age, that an upper class woman, Susan Hamlin was her name, who had been close to her own family of origin - could become so completely trapped in a marriage with a psycho. ...

Agree that was a pretty horrifying show, as was last night's Evil Lives Here about the horribly dysfunctional marriage of a couple who routinely beat up each other & husband even took their 2 young children outta their beds some nights to force them to WATCH their fights.  Mannahatta - if last week's disturbed you, don't watch this one!  I think this ep. was the last of the season, and I'm actually sorry to see it go.  As I've said above, I think it's done very well & the stories sure are riveting. 

My only hope is that the season is ending REAL soon for Web of Lies for the sole reason that I absolutely am sick to death of the same g.d. promo for this program that's shown at least 3 times per hour on any given program on I.D.  OMG I can't grab the remote to mute fast enough!  (Sorry -- I know I've bitched about this before.)

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Kinda sorta off topic, but today I was so bored (& it beat the shit outta doing laundry), I actually watched a Hallmark movie!  I can hear you all gasping now, but let me tell you what made me watch the whole thing!  It's called "After All These Years" starring Wendy Malick.  A murder mystery/comedy.  Her husband of many years leaves her for a younger model & she's laying in bed watching TV & pulls up the TV guide on her remote.  It shows Forensic Files, Snapped & Investigation I.D.  Wendy's character voices over, "The only man that's been in my bedroom over the last 4 months is Peter Thomas from Forensic Files."  Hey ... I go to bed with him damn near every night!   Anyhow, it was pretty entertaining. 

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I finally saw the Keith Morrison special that aired in ID and I'm appalled that she was convicted on such flimsy evidence, especially when there was an untested hair in the victim's hand that the prosecution conceded wasn't the defendant's and that a judge refused to allow them to test it is infuriating!   I found the victim's husband to be shady from the beginning as it was obvious from the start he was lying about there being a breakin, he didn't report the breakin when he reported his wife and son missing and he later said that he thought the breakin was irrelevant.   Who has a missing wife and child and says that a breakin is irrelevant?   Mad early me distrust him from the start.  And then the husband sat in his wife's car contaminating a potential crime scene so he could play "ameutur detective".   I thought this case was a miscarriage of justice and hope her conviction will eventually be overturned.

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5 hours ago, Mannahatta said:

After 3 days. I finally finished it. It's insane to think that in this country, in this day and age, that an upper class woman with a law school degree, Susan Hamlin was her name, who had been close to her own family of origin - could become so completely trapped in a marriage with a psycho.

The wives on "Evil Lives Here" all seem painfully dumb and passive. "I just couldn't believe it was him. I told the police they'd made a mistake." "It was just really important to me that my kids had a mother and a father." "To find out that he was actually guilty was upsetting." "A lot of these signs I just didn't see." "I should have left many years before." I guess they get points for being honest but for crying out loud, open your eyes and take some ownership of your life! Critical thinking! Argh!

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On 3/14/2017 at 4:18 PM, ButterQueen said:

Judge Perry is a putz and let the CA trial get out of hand.  But then you had the ignorant jurors who acquitted her.

I was an alternate on a child murder trial and although a couple of the jurors after the trial told me they really thought the mother did it but that they didn't think the prosecution proved it beyond a reasonable doubt (her first trial she was found guilty but it was overturned on a technicality and then certain pieces of evidence were claimed non admissible in the second trial). When these same jurors got a chance to go on 20/20 all of a sudden they were saying that they knew the mom didn't do it and blah blah blah. It made me sick to my stomach. 

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I'm watching Obsession: Dark Desires season 4, episode 4, "Texts, Lies, and Videotape," about Katie Call from Powder Springs, Georgia. The reenactor sounds just like her.

Either the casting agent found the perfect actor, or she studied Katie before filming. Either way, kudos! (If the latter, she should work as a dialect coach for The Walking Dead.)

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18 hours ago, AuntTora said:

The wives on "Evil Lives Here" all seem painfully dumb and passive. "I just couldn't believe it was him. I told the police they'd made a mistake." "It was just really important to me that my kids had a mother and a father." "To find out that he was actually guilty was upsetting." "A lot of these signs I just didn't see." "I should have left many years before." I guess they get points for being honest but for crying out loud, open your eyes and take some ownership of your life! Critical thinking! Argh!

I've watched a couple of shows the last few days (I think one was Evil Lives Here) where the woman has said, I wanted my kids to have both parents. While I understand the desire some of these women just take it too far. I think your kids will be much better off with single parent than extremely abusive parent in a two parent household. Let it go!!

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16 hours ago, editorgrrl said:

I'm watching Obsession: Dark Desires season 4, episode 4, "Texts, Lies, and Videotape," about Katie Call from Powder Springs, Georgia. The reenactor sounds just like her.

Either the casting agent found the perfect actor, or she studied Katie before filming. Either way, kudos! (If the latter, she should work as a dialect coach for The Walking Dead.)

I noticed the exact same thing! I wanted to yell at the tv when she said she dropped the paperwork for the restraining order though. 

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Last night’s Web of Lies “Playing Doctor” is yet another one that left me shaking my head in disbelief.  That one gal actually stayed with him for FOUR YEARS?!?  To quote a poster on another forum, “I’ll take ‘Shit That Makes No Damn Sense’ for $2,000, Alex.” 

And how could that asshole live so extravagantly having only relatively low-paying jobs?  Anyone know?

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On 3/20/2017 at 4:49 PM, Mannahatta said:

I had recorded the episode of Evil Lives Here titled "Trapped in Hell". It was so disturbing that I had to keep interrupting it. After 3 days. I finally finished it. It's insane to think that in this country, in this day and age, that an upper class woman with a law school degree, Susan Hamlin was her name, who had been close to her own family of origin - could become so completely trapped in a marriage with a psycho. Of course, intellectually I know that it's possible but wow. That show was insane - especially how the father ( Richard Hamlin, a successful lawyer - oddly enough) was able to convince, through fear and manipulation, all 4 children that the mother was the member of a cult who deserved to be beaten even killed by him. It was the kind of show that makes me question not only what's going on behind closed doors but just how thin is the line between sanity and insanity. What thought process kept the wife from leaving before it got so out of hand?..... Of course, there are people (probably not on this forum, lol) who may ask why I'm watching these type of programs at all if I find them so upsetting.... Well, at least the ending was happy.... sort of. The psycho husband was locked up for life. But of course the rest of the family still remains traumatized. In fact, I think I'm experiencing second-hand trauma from watching this show.

Am I the only one who thought there was something really off about that woman? Well, I guess you would have to be off somehow to put up with that shit, but she cry-talked through the whole damn thing, and even though she was digging her fingers into her eyes to wipe away tears, I don't think I ever saw one.

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4 hours ago, tobeannounced said:

Am I the only one who thought there was something really off about that woman? Well, I guess you would have to be off somehow to put up with that shit, but she cry-talked through the whole damn thing, and even though she was digging her fingers into her eyes to wipe away tears, I don't think I ever saw one.

I thought that too! I had to fast forward a lot because of her voice! Yikers?

 

12 hours ago, Maizie131 said:

Last night’s Web of Lies “Playing Doctor” is yet another one that left me shaking my head in disbelief.  That one gal actually stayed with him for FOUR YEARS?!?  To quote a poster on another forum, “I’ll take ‘Shit That Makes No Damn Sense’ for $2,000, Alex.” 

And how could that asshole live so extravagantly having only relatively low-paying jobs?  Anyone know?

I had the same questions Maizie. Maybe I should google him to get more info but don't remember his name so it would be hard for me to do.

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I watched a Vanity Fair Confidential last night about the case in Houma, La., of Jorell Young stabbing to death with a screwdriver Robert LeCompte. Aside from a cast of characters straight out of Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil, I was cringing the whole time at the thought of being stabbed by a screwdriver. I don't imagine any violent death is pleasant, but a dull screwdriver....yowza! Me thinks there was a little more going on behind the psychological scenes than mere greed as a motive. 

Oh, and his gf was named Darkus. What on earth....? She was smartus and bravus though because she turned his arsus innus. 

Edited by bubbls
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On 3/22/2017 at 9:02 AM, Maizie131 said:

Last night’s Web of Lies “Playing Doctor” is yet another one that left me shaking my head in disbelief.  That one gal actually stayed with him for FOUR YEARS?!?  To quote a poster on another forum, “I’ll take ‘Shit That Makes No Damn Sense’ for $2,000, Alex.” 

And how could that asshole live so extravagantly having only relatively low-paying jobs?  Anyone know?

When she woke up, I was saying to the TV... Woman, you were just raped! I was so glad to find out I wasn't judging him wrongly. So many red flags, right from the start. 

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Watching this "Lethal Lover" special, I tuned in a few minutes late and my first thought was how does Nicole Blackman keep getting true crime narrator gigs. She did Suburban Secrets, Scorned: Love Kills, Dates From Hell, now this. Then I saw that they did those name pop ups that Scorned: Love Kills usually does and realize this was not a new special this was a rip off of a Scorned episode. I looked up the episode and it was Season 1 Episode 5 named 'Afternoon Delight". 

"A Fatal Affair" special is a ripoff of "My Dirty Little Secret" named 'Diary of an Affair' and they were too lazy to take out the woman doing shhh at the beginning of the episode.

I know this isn't the first time I.D. has done this, but this seems stupid to take old episodes of I.D. shows and present them as new epidoes. You're not fooling people who watch this network.

Edited by jacofa
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Thanks @jacofa! I'm so far behind and now know I can skipped those two, at least.

I just watched the Evil Lives Here episode on William Choyce, and am fully and completely aboard the "wife was willfully obtuse" train. She says in the first few minutes that there were signs that he wasn't the great man he was presenting himself to be and that she only saw what she wanted, which is really typical in abusive relationships. I don't remember her saying that he was physically abusive to her, and she definitely didn't say he was sexually abusive to her, but find it exceedingly doubtful that he was as emotionally abusive as he was, what with tormenting the daughter by "hanging" her favorite doll and all, but never laid a hand on her or engaged in sexual behavior with her that pushed her boundaries. If she had said that, it would be harder to believe she didn't think he could be a rapist and murderer.

She had an issue with him being friends with prostitutes, him asking her to wear boots she thought were only something prostitutes would wear, obliged his request for the red lipstick, even though she equated it with prostitutes, and didn't like his watching porn, but accepted it as something he was going to do. She obviously had issues with him sleeping with a prostitute in their bed, which even the most sex-positive and "willing to try almost anything to please their partner" woman would likely have a problem with, but otherwise, and until he showed her the violent porn, she didn't claim to be outraged or concerned by his sexual behavior. It was unclear to me where his comment about wanting to have sex with his mother fell in the timeline, and in fact, the timeline during the entire show was a bit wishy-washy. That could be why I'm having such a hard time believing that she wasn't as clueless as she claims about his possible behavior, especially when it comes to the neighbor, and in light of the daughter  paging her "emergency" twice. Why he kept her home wasn't explained, but if she was at school she wouldn't have known about him pacing with the mask and the cops showing up at the neighbors. It's like he wanted her to know, as further emotional terror. 

I'm glad that she and her daughter successfully escaped and have moved forward in their lives, and I hope they have received the counselling necessary to have healthy relationships in the future. They were willing to come on this show and lay at lot out there, admit that she should have seen something but ignored clues to see what she wanted, and she apologized to his victims for not recognizing him for what he was and notifying someone, so I should probably cut her much more slack than I am. That couldn't have been easy and it didn't look like she was looking for attention for a new reality show or the release of a book she had written, and yet I was astounded over and over throughout the episode of her burying her head in the sand to the detriment to the public and her daughter.

Victims of domestic violence have excused the behavior of their abusers, and she wasn't doing that, at least. She also wasn't admitting domestic violence, I'm just reading it into the situation in light of the huge gaps of story that were missing. It did remind me of the story of the woman who had found her husband's rape kit in their car trunk on accident. I think Tiffany Amber Theissen played her on a made-for-TV movie years ago. There were several rapes in the area, a car matching their description, and she was looking for something and accidently uncovered his kit that included the mask, gloves, duct tape, knife or gun, etc. She called the police, they tracked him, and caught him stalking then later breaking into the home of the woman who would have been his next victim. His wife also didn't think he would do such a thing, and said they had an active sex life, that included the nights after he raped someone. She just couldn't overlook why he would have those objects hidden in their trunk. 

Frustrating episode and I hope he burns in hell.

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19 hours ago, jacofa said:

I know this isn't the first time I.D. has done this, but this seems stupid to take old episodes of I.D. shows and present them as new epidoes. You're not fooling people who watch this network.

I started to watch a show about Kelsey, with a new date, and it was an old See No Evil.
I recorded Lethal Lover, but now I can just erase it, thanks.

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On 3/24/2017 at 3:47 PM, Queena said:

When she woke up, I was saying to the TV... Woman, you were just raped! I was so glad to find out I wasn't judging him wrongly. So many red flags, right from the start. 

I'm always amazed that women are willing to ignore the red flags when their date is a "doctor", is good looking and presents himself well. A regular Joe with an ordinary job would not get away with such shenanigans.

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On 3/25/2017 at 7:58 PM, auntjess said:

I started to watch a show about Kelsey, with a new date, and it was an old See No Evil.
I recorded Lethal Lover, but now I can just erase it, thanks.

Oxygen channel had this story listed as "Three days to live".I thought it looked looked familiar.

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I watched the new Obsession: Dark Desires tonight about Christine Oliveaux Langley and her abusive and murderous husband, Shane.  At the end of the show, they said Shane was locked up in the "Walshall Parish Correctional Center", which struck me strange because (A) there is no Walshall Parish in Louisiana and (B) even if someone incorrectly thought "Walshall" was Ouachita Parish (where Monroe, LA is), there is no state prison there.  After a bit of poking around on the great interwebs, it turns out that Langley is actually locked up in Avoyelles Correctional Center, a state prison in the middle of the state.  And, from a partial article I found from about 10 years ago (and thus 10 years after the action of the show), it seems Shane was much worse than the show let on.  He apparently not only beat Christine, but also 2 of the 3 kids, and she was also held hostage with the kids on the day that he shot her twice and killed her mother.  I know these shows take liberties and have the disclaimer indicating such, but I thought it was an odd choice to downplay how awful he was to the kids, especially since his abuse was publicly documented.

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One good thing that may come from the 3 part  Casey Anthony thing on ID is people will hate the jury all over again. Let the harassing begin!! I hope People will know where Casey lives now and they make her life a living hell! Only legal shenanigans of course.

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On ‎3‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 4:49 PM, walnutqueen said:

I'm trying too FF through some of the crap, just to make room on my DVR for more of the same.  Too many Uverse channels, too few lives.  I need a clone.

Keep weeding.  I still feel bereft after U-verse recalculated my space and wiped out all (about 40) of my Holmes on Homes, and told me the 20 % space free was just an estimate.
And the Real Detectives show last week featured Christina (Minka) Mannina,  from The Shift shows about Indianapolis homicide squad.  I watched closely, but didn't see any of the others I recognized.

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