S10.E23: Brother's Keeper

[SueB]

Personally, I didn't think Sam was really submitting to having his head lopped off, but it was part of his plan to bring Dean back. I think he was banking on Dean not killing him when it came down to it. First he tries to talk him down, but that wasn't working, so he punches him--trying to get through to him with a slap, so to speak--of course, that doesn't work on an amped-up Dean. So he changes tactics and submits, and then throws his Hail Mary with the photos. It was a gamble, but I think it was a risk he thought he had to take to get Dean back. And, even if Dean did follow through Cass would still working on the spell. So Dean would still be saved even if he wasn't there to see it. It's very similar to what Dean was trying to do in Swan Song, IMO.

 

Interesting take!  That never occurred to me.  I think he was prepared to lose his head, but Sam doing that while still being hopeful that this would change Dean's mind is a fascinating idea. 

[Aeryn13]

 

To some extent both Death and Dean underestimated that Cas would follow through without Sam.

 

They didn`t know there was a concrete plan TO follow through so how could they underestimate it? I find that very iffy on the part of Death because I figured he was rather omnicient and would know what went on at any given time but apparently not. And Dean had no idea about the spell so he wouldn`t have thought of Cas as a danger there. Why? 

 

Heck, even Death`s logic of "Sam will surely try" was really ridiculous. Death can`t make it so Sam has no chance? He can`t kill Sam himself? Lobotomize him for God`s sake?Or put him on Planet Timeout alongside Dean? And that is without all the WTFs in that scene. Death turns from a suave badass into the biggest, nonsensical idiot. Dean immediately agrees that Sam will try to save him so hard, Sam has to die. He will not bring up trillions of other options. Sam himself agress with that logic in the end. It`s a bit hard as a viewer to forget Season 8 than it apparently is for all the characters. Sam will never say Dean is anything but good. Except for Purge.

 

IMO Carver should be at least quizzed on what roughly happened in the show before he is allowed to hand in episodes. The first question should probably be "tell the name of the show you are writing for". And when he answers in the wrong, burn the script unread and hire a ghostwriter. Or at least a monkey with a dartboard. It can not get any worse, I think. 

[DittyDotDot]

Interesting take!  That never occurred to me.  I think he was prepared to lose his head, but Sam doing that while still being hopeful that this would change Dean's mind is a fascinating idea. 

 

I definitely think Sam was prepared to die, if need be, but either way Dean would be saved so it would be fine by him. I just saw a weird bizarro mash-up of All Hell Breaks Loose II, Lucifer Rising and Swan Song in this episode. In a way, Sam was selling his soul for Dean like Dean did at the end of S2--Dean knew it would probably lead to more bad, but not knowing what the bad was he was willing to throw the dice. I think that's what Sam was doing here with Rowena and the spell. But as it turned out, that was the decision that led to Dean breaking the first seal. So, will it turn out that killing Death will be the like Sam breaking the final seal? Will we learn that it took more than removing the Mark from Dean to unleash the Darkness? Maybe Death also carried the Mark of Cain in some fashion?

[GirlyGeek]

All I know for sure is this: everything the bad guys have been telling us, the audience, and telling the Winchesters from S1-S10 is looking like the truth (and looks like the bad guys are mouthpieces for some writers). I'm all for Team Free Will, but honestly we've been being told that the winchesters are the end, they bring about the end, it all ends with them, it all ends in blood, it ends sad, they were orchestrated to be the ones who bring about the apocalypse, etc

So, yes, they stopped an apocalypse once or twice... But what the show and writers seem to be saying is it doesn't matter. Destiny is real, and the more the Winchesters fight, the worse things seem to get. And maybe they'll get a win, maybe they stop the apocalypse, but it's destined to happen so one way or another it will.

I'm not sure I like the message. I didn't like it much when the Angels were spouting it and telling us they know it would always end with Sam and Dean, but back then I still hoped for TFW. But TFW excercises their free will and... Badness happens. I don't like where that leads much.

As for Sam, I want Carver to answer for this, or I want his pencil taken away and he's not allowed to write for Sam anymore. I'm a Dean girl (though I hate the term) and I'm pissed about how The character of Sam is being portrayed! And, coincidentally or not, Jared has been bringing his A game to the table for this drivel.

As for the finale, I'm going to give a lot of benefit of doubt and hope that Carver and team bring some sense with the premiere. I know that's a little silly and optomistic, but the alternative is to be pissed and confused cause this finale made very little sense.

I have a feeling, though, that a lot of our fanwanking is going to be better than what we see next season :/

Consider the previous finales/premieres:

Purgatory and a great set up with a lot of promise/Sam hits a dog and a whole season of bickering

Shutting gates of hell averted and angels fall/Angel in a Sam and a whole season of bickering and pointless Angels

Dean dies and is a demon/karaoke Dean and desperate Sam (this is the best of the options)

[Aeryn13]

 

Will we learn that it took more than removing the Mark from Dean to unleash the Darkness? Maybe Death also carried the Mark of Cain in some fashion?

 

Seeing as I don`t remotely believe Dean will get the big hero`s redemption tale in the end, I wouldn`t care for some retcon that made it all his fault. Which IMO it would be then. And it would completely go against what Death established here. He wanted Dean to pass on the Mark so someone would have it and hold back the darkness. Meaning Death was not already that person. Dean shared the fault in Season 4 but shared none of the redemption of Season 5.

 

And the show never once redeemed itself to me for that. Now they`ve given Dean the storyline but in the most lackluster way possible and I can`t even look forward to some epic conclusion either. Which kinda makes it really pointless to me. As it stands right now, the entire MOC/demon storyline had no point whatosever. Dean had it, Dean lost it. Some stuff happened in between but nothing that gave it narrative weight. It`s like the entire "going to hell, being brought back by angels for a purpose, exit stage left for tertiary character to take over" and "going to Purgatory, coming back, meaning nothing" all over again.   

[SueB]

Or put him on Planet Timeout alongside Dean?

Hee. I love that name.  Honestly, if Dean had Sam, premium cable and a good internet connection -- that might just be fine with him.

 

As for Dean's arc with the Mark of Cain... my perspective:

- Well it lasted for 1 1/2 seasons so we can't say it was short.

- I think Dean learned a shit-ton of control through the process.-

- I also think Dean learned to open up and rely on Sam.  Yes, that took a MASSIVE hit with the Book of the Damned, but I think he'll get back there.

- I also think Dean sees something other than short life/bloody death as an option.  He never thought he'd be THIS old.  I think, if give a peaceful moment, he might actually have found something in terms of wanting to go beyond just Sam & the Impala.  Not with anyone specific or even permanent ... but I think he wants long term relationships (even just friendships) with people that don't die.  It's not that he didn't want that before, but I think the outpouring of love for him by Sam/Cas/Charlie made him look at things a little differently.

 

And his uber-hunter skills were pretty neat for me.  Not Jedi mind-trick neat but neat enough.

[rue721]

- I also think Dean sees something other than short life/bloody death as an option.  He never thought he'd be THIS old.  I think, if give a peaceful moment, he might actually have found something in terms of wanting to go beyond just Sam & the Impala.  Not with anyone specific or even permanent ... but I think he wants long term relationships (even just friendships) with people that don't die.  It's not that he didn't want that before, but I think the outpouring of love for him by Sam/Cas/Charlie made him look at things a little differently.

 

But wait, how could he (or anybody) have that? Everybody dies. I thought that was even a reason why he didn't have more of a problem going to Planet Time Out -- because he was immortal, so he'd ultimately be alone/have to watch everybody die/see everything end in blood anyway. I thought that Death's argument -- which Dean seemed to buy -- was more or less that Dean might as well just give Sam a merciful death (since Sam is the only mortal left that he cares about anyway) and peace out, and go be immortal somewhere where he doesn't have to witness (or cause) all that loneliness/death/blood. Better for everybody. 

 

I mean, yeah, I think that Dean wasn't looking to wonder the earth alone, as though he were the love child of Paradise Lost's Satan and the Biblical Cain. But I don't think that all this (meaning the MoC arc as a whole) actually resulted in Dean being...Idk, more connected with anybody or more trusting or any of that. He seemed more unreachable than ever during the vast majority of the finale -- though we didn't get to see much of him once he got the Mark off, and presumably that will change things?

 

Anyway, the thing of Sam being prepared to let Dean kill him just doesn't make sense to me really no matter how I twist things. It doesn't make sense to me that Sam would be so out of the know and that Cas would be so terrible about keeping in touch and texting him basic updates (BASIC, like:  "About to do the spell!" or something, ffs), that Sam wouldn't know that breaking the "curse" was imminent. It also doesn't make sense to me that after Sam had already spent so long being SO determined to save Dean, with really no reason to hope that he could save him and while basically just casting about in the dark, that he would suddenly figure that it was a lost cause after all and that he'd have to just let Dean do things his way -- especially right at *that* moment, when they had the best shot at actually saving him than they'd ever had.

 

Also, since Charlie died while trying to decode that damn spell, it seems really horrible to just blow off the idea of at least seeing if it could work. I mean, at least follow it through to the end out of respect for her sacrifice.

 

Regarding free will -- I keep getting the feeling that in the SPN universe, free will doesn't actually exist. Even when Dean stabbed Death with the scythe -- was that him exercising his own free will? Because it didn't really come off like that to me, he seemed so surprised.

[SueB]

But wait, how could he (or anybody) have that? Everybody dies. I thought that was even a reason why he didn't have more of a problem going to Planet Time Out -- because he was immortal, so he'd ultimately be alone/have to watch everybody die/see everything end in blood anyway. I thought that Death's argument -- which Dean seemed to buy -- was more or less that Dean might as well just give Sam a merciful death (since Sam is the only mortal left that he cares about anyway) and peace out, and go be immortal somewhere where he doesn't have to witness (or cause) all that loneliness/death/blood. Better for everybody. 

 

I mean, yeah, I think that Dean wasn't looking to wonder the earth alone, as though he were the love child of Paradise Lost's Satan and the Biblical Cain. But I don't think that all this (meaning the MoC arc as a whole) actually resulted in Dean being...Idk, more connected with anybody or more trusting or any of that. He seemed more unreachable than ever during the vast majority of the finale -- though we didn't get to see much of him once he got the Mark off, and presumably that will change things?

 

Anyway, the thing of Sam being prepared to let Dean kill him just doesn't make sense to me really no matter how I twist things. It doesn't make sense to me that Sam would be so out of the know and that Cas would be so terrible about keeping in touch and texting him basic updates (BASIC, like:  "About to do the spell!" or something, ffs), that Sam wouldn't know that breaking the "curse" was imminent. It also doesn't make sense to me that after Sam had already spent so long being SO determined to save Dean, with really no reason to hope that he could save him and while basically just casting about in the dark, that he would suddenly figure that it was a lost cause after all and that he'd have to just let Dean do things his way -- especially right at *that* moment, when they had the best shot at actually saving him than they'd ever had.

 

Also, since Charlie died while trying to decode that damn spell, it seems really horrible to just blow off the idea of at least seeing if it could work. I mean, at least follow it through to the end out of respect for her sacrifice.

 

Regarding free will -- I keep getting the feeling that in the SPN universe, free will doesn't actually exist. Even when Dean stabbed Death with the scythe -- was that him exercising his own free will? Because it didn't really come off like that to me, he seemed so surprised.

 

Oh...I meant like "die like Charlie died".  Not immortality.  Yes, the end of the season sort of shot that notion to hell and back, but Dean eschews deep relationships (or tries, I think he insta-bonds with EVERYONE) but he was hoping to have a not-hunter-who-is-going-to-die-bloody-in-the-next-episode relationship.  IDK. Maybe that confession scene was setting him up to be crushed by Charlie's death.

 

Interesting notion, again, that Sam may have known the spell was imminent.  I'd find that fascinating if we get a flashback like that.  But... would he TELL Dean?  Would Dean be pissed? IDK.  I have to think about that.

 

As for Dean's surprise --- I'm personally convinced that when he said "forgive me", he was saying that NOT because he was going to take off Sam's head but because he was stepping away from being sent to oblivion.  And he thought it might turn messy.  I thought his surprise was that it actually worked.  He had a healthy fear of Death and I think he took a shot at him with the scythe thinking Death may just swat him like a fly after.  I don't think he was sure the scythe would work.  BUT... I think many have the take that he was surprised he actually killed Death in lieu of Sam. So.. next season? 

[Demented Daisy]

Rowena knows where Crowley's bones are.  Why didn't she have Sam torch them?  

 

Maybe it was part of the plan before they got renewed.  It would explain the "Rowena spies on Crowley" scene.  I forget which episode that was....

[supposebly]

 

Interesting notion, again, that Sam may have known the spell was imminent.

 

Even if he didn't, if he is dead, there is no one to stop Cas and Rowena to go ahead. Even if he thought it was unlikely it would work if Death whisked Dean away, it was a huge risk to take, considering what was at stake.

[Aeryn13]

 

 

- I think Dean learned a shit-ton of control through the process.-

- I also think Dean learned to open up and rely on Sam.  Yes, that took a MASSIVE hit with the Book of the Damned, but I think he'll get back there.

- I also think Dean sees something other than short life/bloody death as an option.  He never thought he'd be THIS old.  I think, if give a peaceful moment, he might actually have found something in terms of wanting to go beyond just Sam & the Impala.  Not with anyone specific or even permanent ... but I think he wants long term relationships (even just friendships) with people that don't die.  It's not that he didn't want that before, but I think the outpouring of love for him by Sam/Cas/Charlie made him look at things a little differently.

 

My problem is that I never thought he had that much of a problem with number 1), I actually think number 2) just makes him like Charlie Brown, Lucy and the football and I hate it for that reason so it`s not a development I want to see and number 3) is nothing that really interests me all that much.

 

So I`m left with a plot that had oodles of potential but just fizzled out. I love big epic plots, when a show introduces them I get excited because I (foolishly maybe) expect them to be epic-y plotness. If all that happens in the end is "how character X feels about something", it`s a huge letdown for me. I`m not saying I want no character development but the actual plot and the big moments matter a great deal to me.

 

This show has never been particularly good with its plots, baring Season 4 which was the best narratively structured and paced IMO but at least when it was Sam`s plot the first few years, it fit my definition way better than the scrap-job they did with Dean here. Here, I waited 9 years for my fave character to have a turn and then they totally blow it, making it doubly bitter he didn`t get a turn when they were at least marginally trying.

 

Maybe Carver has no interest in actual genre plotlines but in that case he should get a writing partner that does. AND in that case, I`d expect his forté to be character work. But it isn`t either. This Finale was a clusterfuck of both. None of his Openers or Finales since becoming showrunner have been actually good.    

[SueB]

Rowena knows where Crowley's bones are.  Why didn't she have Sam torch them?  

 

Maybe it was part of the plan before they got renewed.  It would explain the "Rowena spies on Crowley" scene.  I forget which episode that was....

Since the grey-beard guy got the blade, I presume Crowley moved his bones -- as he knew the secret of their location was out.  I don't think he was EVER fooled by Rowena.  I think he knew she manipulated that situation.

[SueB]

Even if he didn't, if he is dead, there is no one to stop Cas and Rowena to go ahead. Even if he thought it was unlikely it would work if Death whisked Dean away, it was a huge risk to take, considering what was at stake.

That's why I'm going with the theory that Sam was prepared to risk the spell and was buying time for a long-shot "save" for Dean.  If it looked like the threat of Mark removal was gone, then Cas/Rowena might succeed.  I rewatched again.  There's a LOT going on in Jared's face from when he spits out the blood to when the tear goes.  I could interpret in many ways.

 

I`d expect his forté to be character work. But it isn`t either. This Finale was a clusterfuck of both. None of his Openers or Finales since becoming showrunner have been actually good.    

 

I felt it was a "miss" for Cas' character but I liked the other character work.  Asshole Dean was bit risky, but I kinda got the impression that if you look back at what Dean was doing, he was:

1) telling the sheriff he's missing big clues by how the girl was dressed and that he was blind to what was going on in his own town

2) that the Dad was sexually abusing the daughter and he was punishing both parents for it

3) that he thought Rudy could actually handle himself and pull away from the vampire -- but he didn't and Dean didn't make sure Rudy was safe

[rue721]

I felt it was a "miss" for Cas' character but I liked the other character work.  Asshole Dean was bit risky, but I kinda got the impression that if you look back at what Dean was doing, he was:

1) telling the sheriff he's missing big clues by how the girl was dressed and that he was blind to what was going on in his own town

2) that the Dad was sexually abusing the daughter and he was punishing both parents for it

3) that he thought Rudy could actually handle himself and pull away from the vampire -- but he didn't and Dean didn't make sure Rudy was safe

 

I don't think that Dean was necessarily correct about the horrible things he was reading into everything -- he was just theorizing. I think that the point was just that he was seeing the worst in everything and everybody.

 

In the state of mind that Dean was in, the teenage girl dressed in a skimpy outfit looked like a whore. The awkward father/daughter photo looked proof of an abusive relationship. Rudy getting caught mid-ambush looked like he'd already signed his own death warrant. Etc.

 

But the girl wasn't necessarily a whore (really, iIrc, she'd been victimized by the vampires while, at worst, getting up to some teenaged shenanigans), the father wasn't necessarily sexually abusing his daughter, Rudy didn't necessarily have to die. I mean, mayyyyyybe they were/did, but Dean's interpretation of those scenarios was always the darkest possible interpretation (which also isn't particularly like him, imo -- I think that was a sign of how the Mark had wormed its way into his psyche). Not necessarily the truest interpretation, just the darkest.

 

The sheriff basically said that Dean was seeing "through the glass, darkly," and Dean said the sheriff had no idea -- I think that the way that Dean kept seeing the worst in everything and everybody was proof that the sheriff was right.

[Bruinsfan]

I don't get the Winchesters' apparent dismissal/distrust of what Death told them, odd as what he was saying actually sounded. I mean, of all the supernatural entities on the show he's the one that's always been pretty upfront when dealing with everyone—what motivation would he have to lie? And since he's more in the know about, well, everything than anybody else it's a safe bet if he tells you that doing something will result in catastrophe and suffering for everyone, the stated consequences are pretty likely to follow. It feels like Sam and Dean's actions there at the end are the equivalent of them both flipping a boardgame and scattering the pieces when they got too frustrated at how the game was turning out.

[supposebly]

Oh, I'm fairly certain they believed him. They just thought killing Death instead was the better idea.

 

I hope there is a better solution to this but right now, I'm not too enamored with my dear Winchesters. And that's a first.

[DittyDotDot]

See, I don't think Sam believed him--or maybe it was that Sam didn't want to believe him--I think Dean definitely believed what Death was selling though.

 

I think the show was trying to make sure everyone has some blame for something next season. Dean didn't know Sam had Cass working on the spell, but he killed Death and that can't be a good thing, right? Sam didn't know Dean was going to kill Death, but he proceeded to push forward with the spell even though he knew there would be consequences, just didn't know what those consequences would be.

 

Okay, I'm gonna go against my nature here and be a bit hopeful...ugh, this is hard...I'm hoping this means next season the boys will be on a level playing field and we won't be playing the blame game. Is it too much to hope that they will be united and fighting the good fight together?

 

Seriously, SueB, what did you put in my Kool Aid? ;)

[trxr4kids]

 

 

Okay, I'm gonna go against my nature here and be a bit hopeful...ugh, this is hard...I'm hoping this means next season the boys will be on a level playing field and we won't be playing the blame game. Is it too much to hope that they will be united and fighting the good fight together.

 Please join DittyDotDot in her selfless quest to restore hope to weary Supernatural fans. For each small outpouring of hope an angel gets his/her wings.

 

ETA: SueB will provide refreshments, maybe.

Edited June 6, 2015 by trxr4kids

[SueB]

Seriously, SueB, what did you put in my Kool Aid? ;)

MwahHahahahahaha

[Commando Cody]

MwahHahahahahaha

 

Just as i read this, the villain on TV started laughing just like that.  Then everyone on TV just sat and laughed - just like that.  It kind of freaked me out.  

 

I think Sam has been fine with dying for years now.  

It looked to me like Death's death was accidental.  I think mid swing Dean couldn't do it and Death was standing too closely.  I just watched the episode where Crowley was explaining that the scythe was rumored to be the only thing that could kill Death.   Of course it was only a rumor, but Death did crumble pretty thoroughly. 

[Wynne88]

I wonder how they filmed that?  It looked like it didn't clear Jared's head by much.

[catrox14]

http://itsajensenthing.tumblr.com/post/121029607779/outtakes-from-10x23-x-x

HOLYYYYY CRAP! These are apparently the original production scripts for 10.23.

So much would have made it all make more sense. Damn.

[rue721]

Really interesting -- thanks for bringing that link over, catrox.

 

Is Dean supposed to be hallucinating those scenes? Crowley keeps saying that they're just dreams in these script pages, but iIrc, the "Dean wakes up in a motel and looks like death warmed over" shot was included in the aired episode as something that was actually happening and that wasn't Dean dreaming.

 

Angels can go into people's dreams or give them "visions," right? IIrc, Lucifer was doing that with Nick and with Sam, back when he was trying to use them as vessels. Can demons do that, too? Could Crowley have been manipulating Dean's reality or making him see things that aren't there? Or, could the Mark on its own have caused Dean to hallucinate or become confused about what was a dream and what was reality?

 

Actually, I wonder about Dean's perceptions in this episode. He was so convinced that his ultra-dark perceptions of everything were correct (I mean his conviction that the dead girl was a whore, that the girl's dad was abusive, etc), but there wasn't much/any outside corroboration of those interpretations, and imo it was kind of mysterious where his certainty was coming from. I wonder if he might have not just been seeing things in a dark light, but actually *seeing* dark things -- like, hallucinating horrible things or having visions of them, and that's where his certainty that his dark interpretations were correct was coming from. For example, maybe he thought that the father was abusive because he literally had a vision of the girl being abused by her father (though the vision might or might not have been true), it wasn't just that he saw an awkward picture and thought the worst? Or at least, maybe he was hallucinating or having visions of horrible things in *this* version of the script, if not in the episode as it finally aired!

 

I guess none of this matters anymore, does it, now that the Mark has been zapped off? LOL. What. A. Waste.

 

Anyway, Cas's lines kind of made me gag. "Sweet, crooked smile"? Rme.

[catrox14]

You know. Part of that seems like fan fiction. And to be fair I would like to see some corroboration that those are legit scripts. I mean people are clever and it could be an elaborate ruse. But these is enough that seems Legit. Now I'm taking it with a big fat grain of salt. Hmm.

[SueB]

Well id pay money for the dream/hallucination scene to be on the DvD

[Mick Lady]

http://itsajensenthing.tumblr.com/post/121029607779/outtakes-from-10x23-x-x

HOLYYYYY CRAP! These are apparently the original production scripts for 10.23.

So much would have made it all make more sense. Damn.

 

Darn it catrox14, how on earth do you find this stuff?!

 

Never mind, just keep posting!

[7kstar]

My take on the mark was causing Dean to see the worst, dark side in people that had a dark side.  Like Cain he had begun a quest, to rid the world of evil even if it wasn't totally clear that they would be evil.

 

Like Soulless Sam he didn't care about the innocent victims along the way, example Rudy (or course interesting Ruby)

 

If they had set this up with more eps I think it would have been a good final.  But to throw as much as they did in the end it came out of left field.  Now if parts of what we saw was a dream, still can hope that Death isn't really dead and the really extra large weapon might be a clue....

 

It would have been fun to see the Crowley and Dean dream scene though.  I'm glad we didn't see Cas and Rowena scene it is like bad fanfiction.

[AwesomO4000]

Angels can go into people's dreams or give them "visions," right? IIrc, Lucifer was doing that with Nick and with Sam, back when he was trying to use them as vessels. Can demons do that, too? Could Crowley have been manipulating Dean's reality or making him see things that aren't there? Or, could the Mark on its own have caused Dean to hallucinate or become confused about what was a dream and what was reality?.

 

Azazel did it to Sam in "All Hell Breaks Loose, Part 1" when he showed Sam the scene of Mary in his nursery. He was in Sam's dreams then. And many of the psychic kids mentioned that a "yellow-eyed man" visited them in their dreams and tried to get them to do things. (Like the poor guy that Gordon ganked after he talked to the psychiatrist). So I don't know exactly how much manipulation is involved, but it seems demons can at least get into people's dreams.

[Mick Lady]

See, I don't think Sam believed him--or maybe it was that Sam didn't want to believe him--I think Dean definitely believed what Death was selling though.

 

I think the show was trying to make sure everyone has some blame for something next season. Dean didn't know Sam had Cass working on the spell, but he killed Death and that can't be a good thing, right? Sam didn't know Dean was going to kill Death, but he proceeded to push forward with the spell even though he knew there would be consequences, just didn't know what those consequences would be.

 

Okay, I'm gonna go against my nature here and be a bit hopeful...ugh, this is hard...I'm hoping this means next season the boys will be on a level playing field and we won't be playing the blame game. Is it too much to hope that they will be united and fighting the good fight together?

 

Seriously, SueB, what did you put in my Kool Aid? ;)

Hold on, there's Kool Aid?!

[DittyDotDot]

http://itsajensenthing.tumblr.com/post/121029607779/outtakes-from-10x23-x-x

HOLYYYYY CRAP! These are apparently the original production scripts for 10.23.

So much would have made it all make more sense. Damn.

 

You know this just reinforces my theory about this episode being a weird mash up of No Rest for the Wicked and Swan Song. No Rest for the Wicked starts out with Dean dreaming of the hellhounds and then his hallucinations of Sam's face and all. It too was a rather internal Dean-before-he-dies episode. Oh Hell, I think I might have to do my S10 Bizarro rundown now. Sigh. What this show compels me to waste time on. ;)

 

Hold on, there's Kool Aid?!

 

Sure, if you're into that kind of thing. ;)  Be forewarned if you accept a glass from SueB, it may have some very...um...positive effects on you. Which, I'm not sure are really all that positive, if you know what I mean?  Hee!

Edited June 12, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

You know this just reinforces my theory about this episode being a weird mash up of No Rest for the Wicked and Swan Song. No Rest for the Wicked starts out with Dean dreaming of the hellhounds and then his hallucinations of Sam's face and all. It too was a rather internal Dean-before-he-dies episode. Oh Hell, I think I might have to do my S10 Bizarro rundown now. Sigh. What this show compels me to waste time on. ;)

 

 

Sure, if you're into that kind of thing. ;)  Be forewarned if you accept a glass from SueB, it may have some very...um...positive effects on you. Which, I'm not sure are really all that positive, if you know what I mean?  Hee!

Please specify Cherry or Grape.

 

I thought it was Point of No Return.   I really want to know now if those scenes were legit.  Makes sense, it lends credence to Crowley getting into Kevin's head.

[DittyDotDot]

I thought it was Point of No Return.

 

Another episode to add to the Bizzaro mash up list! It's getting to be a long list. ;)

[catrox14]

Uh. Okay guys. It just occurred to me and maybe it did to others here long before now, but why didn't  Dean drop dead as soon as the Mark was removed?

 

Human!Dean was killed dead, like really most sincerely dead at the end of 9.23. And we've been told over and over that only the Mark was keeping him alive so it could feed it's bloodlust or turn him into a demon upon his real most sincere death.  Soooo, once the Mark was removed shouldn't human!Dean be dead? Like really-most-sincerely(you know-until-we-resurrect-him-because-SPN-reasons)dead?

[DittyDotDot]

Nah, his soul was never reaped and his body was healed, so I think he wasn't ever really dead, dead. That's supposed to be the curse of the Mark right; it won't let the bearer die?

[mizkat]

Just popping in here to say thanks Carver for the worst SPN season so far (IMO). Also the most confusing. Everyone is either very shrewd or very stupid, and I'm pretty sure they're not shrewd at all. 

 

Also, I thought killing Death was an accident/possibly an unseen force. But I can only go by Dean's reaction because I have NO clue what was going on in this episode. 

[sarthaz]

Took me over 2 months to get up the courage to watch the last few episodes of this season.  I don't really have much to say about it other than an expression of the deep sadness I feel about what they've done to our show.  And now we have a smoke monster and finger in the dike of unspeakable darkness?  Good thing Mark Pellegrino and Titus Welliver have already been used.  *sigh*

[Dobian]

Well that was, um...dark.

So did Dean kill Death on purpose when he got all teary-eyed looking at the family photos, or did he just wildly swing and miss Sam's head like Mike Trout swinging at a high fastball?  That's why umpires stand far enough behind the plate, Death, guess you weren't a baseball fan.  The blase look on Death's face when he was impaled by the scythe was my favorite moment of the episode.  Kind of sums up how I've felt about this over-the-top biblical plot.

So three whole days before I can watch the next season on Netflix.  Gives me time to wrap up Jessica Jones.

Edited October 5, 2016 by Dobian

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, Dobian said:

So did Dean kill Death on purpose when he got all teary-eyed looking at the family photos, or did he just wildly swing and miss Sam's head like Mike Trout swinging at a high fastball?

My current theory is that he did it at the very last minute on a whim just to see what would happen. Like a fun little experiment in Death. ;)

Yeah, it is too bad Death didn't catch a baseball game or two...I hear some ballparks have great hotdogs and other delightful junk food.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

• You know, I was kinda glad that Rudy walked away.  I thought, well, at least he'll live.  Oops.  Too soon.
• And then thought, hey, that makes what Sam did to Lester small potatoes.  
• Nope.  Cause they had to bring that up again, didn't they?  Thanks for the continued Sam character assassination, this time by Dean, no less.  Now it's not just that Sam started the Apocalypse, Sam hit a dog, Sam killed Lester; it's Sam bullied Charlie.  (IMO, Sam did not bully Charlie.  Last time I checked, he may have coerced Charlie into helping, but I wouldn't call it bullying.)  And yet Sam will never call Regular Dean evil.  But Dean pretty much called Regular Sam evil.  Yay.
• I side with those who don't believe Death is dead.  (I also adore that he liked Dean's homemade taquitos and queso.)  There was something way too weird and easy about the crumbling to dust thing.
• Confused about why Roweena actually went through with the spell.  If she had the power to freeze Cas and Crowley, why not just do it beforehand?

Ah well, glad that shit is over - and did not enjoy Dean beating up Sam either.  Geebus - that alone, and the fact that Sam was willing to let Dean kill him, should more than make up for any mean thing Sam said in the past to Dean - and the whole "Sam hit a dog" thing.  Now let's let those RIP.

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

and the whole "Sam hit a dog" thing.  Now let's let those RIP.

Well, now we have "Sam started another apocalypse" (The darkness) to go along with "Sam got Charlie killed," so yes, now "Sam hit a dog" can be sent to the country to go play on a farm since it's small potatoes now in comparison.

[catrox14]

5 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

• You know, I was kinda glad that Rudy walked away.  I thought, well, at least he'll live.  Oops.  Too soon.
• And then thought, hey, that makes what Sam did to Lester small potatoes.

Apples and oranges.

Dean did not deliberately lure Rudy to do something. It was just the opposite.  Dean told Rudy to stand down because he was in over his head and he didn't. Sam deliberately used Lester to summon a crossroads demon to get them to give up Dean or Crowley's whereabouts.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam deliberately used Lester to summon a crossroads demon to get them to give up Dean or Crowley's whereabouts.

Dean deliberately goaded that vampire until he stabbed Rudy.  It's about taking responsibility for one's actions.  So if Sam should have known the possible consequences of telling Lester about crossroads Demons and is therefore responsible for his death (even though as someone upthread pointed out, Dean was the one who actually killed him), then Dean should have known the possible consequences of goading a vampire into killing a human and is therefore responsible for Rudy's death.  

I get that mileage varies and all, but what I'm really trying to say here is that neither brother is on a higher moral horse these days and the freaking blame game needs to stop.  

But it won't because some people - including some of the writers it seems - can't let it go.  

[catrox14]

Just now, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Dean deliberately goaded that vampire until he stabbed Rudy.  It's about taking responsibility for one's actions.  So if Sam should have known the possible consequences of telling Lester about crossroads Demons and is therefore responsible for his death (even though as someone upthread pointed out, Dean was the one who actually killed him), then Dean should have known the possible consequences of goading a vampire into killing a human and is therefore responsible for Rudy's death.  

He wasn't purposefully trying to provoke him to kill Rudy. He didn't particularly care that much after it happened.  Because it was MoC!Dean. Not regular!Dean. Demon!Dean killed Lester instead of Mindy because Lester pissed him off and no other reason. Seems to me Soulless Sam is basically off the hook for things he did whilst soulless then demon!Dean and MoC!Dean should also be equally "excused". 

Even so, MoC!Dean still said he was responsible for Rudy's death. He said it to Sam at the restaurant that he was evil because of Rudy's death.He was willing to be sent into the Empty to make sure no one else was hurt. So I guess I don't see where MoC!Dean ignored his responsibility towards Rudy's death.

MoC!Dean did attempt to contain himself until Death put Sam's death on the table as a condition of MoC!Dean's exile.  And even then it wasn't until the last moment that MoC!Dean couldn't kill Sam.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Yeah, so?  I could argue that Sam wasn't purposefully trying to get Lester killed.  And around and around it goes.  I don't mean to be terribly rude, but none of that changes this:

26 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

what I'm really trying to say here is that neither brother is on a higher moral horse these days and the freaking blame game needs to stop.  

That 'blame game' btw, includes thinking SoullessSam gets let 'off the hook' for things he did (but not always, not by everyone) versus MoCDean allegedly not getting 'excused' (but not always, not by everyone).  I'm tired of it all.

[catrox14]

20 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Yeah, so?  I could argue that Sam wasn't purposefully trying to get Lester killed.  And around and around it goes.  I don't mean to be terribly rude, but none of that changes this:

That 'blame game' btw, includes thinking SoullessSam gets let 'off the hook' for things he did (but not always, not by everyone) versus MoCDean allegedly not getting 'excused' (but not always, not by everyone).  I'm tired of it all.

I'm talking about how it seems to be treated within the show itself, not amongst fandom if that is what you are referring to by the "blame game".

I was trying to make the point that the things Sam did when soulless were treated as actions done by someone who was not in his right mind because he was being supernaturally influenced in some way and the characters around him did not punish him long term for those actions and eventually outright forgave him.

I think the narrative/characters around Dean have been equally forgiving of demon!Dean/MoC!Dean's actions because he was not in his right mind either. Right now, I don't think anyone in Dean's outer circle even know that Dean was a demon. I think only Crowley, other demons, Sam and Cas know Dean was a demon, maybe some angels? 

Sam was not  supernaturally influenced himself when he got Lester into the deal but I could argue he was maybe not in his right mind because he was consumed with grief and fear over Dean's whereabouts and was making a desperate decision to save Dean. Much like Dean was maybe not entirely in his right mind because he was also consumed with grief and fear when he let an angel in to save Sam's life. But neither was under a supernatural influence when they made those controversial choices. 

Personally, as a viewer I don't hold it against Sam just like I don't hold it against Dean for letting an angel in Sam. I do think the show did hold those things against both Dean and Sam which is why it was revisited by the characters themselves throughout s9 and s10.

Going forward I doubt any of their sins/actions when supernaturally influenced will even be addressed.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

23 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I'm talking about how it seems to be treated within the show itself, not amongst fandom if that is what you are referring to by the "blame game".

Both actually.  I think when it is portrayed in even a semi-negative way on the show certain elements of the fandom latch on to that and make it even worse.  And then doesn't let go.

FWIW, I agree with you about how the show seems to have treated the things SoullessSam and Deanmon did.  And I'm okay with that.  

[Macbeth]

I would like to thank Julian Richings for his fantastic portrayal of Death.   Easily in my top 5 performances of all time.  Sir, it has been an honor.

[bettername2come]

Damn, Death is stronger than me. I'd kill Dean for some queso. Julian Richings was a great Death. Truly one of the best. "What, he's gonna send you into outer space?" It's just like Marie predicted! Ruth Connelly is awesome in the moment where she sees Oskar. God, it would be fun to see DemonBlood!Sam versus MOC!Dean. God, Rowena kill him faster! Crowley versus Cas is more tragic than I thought it would be. Aw, great they've unleashed the Darkness. I actually really like that as a season-long plot. It's definitely my favorite since season 5. On to season 11!

[Hanahope]

So the Winchesters decide to save each other and let loose another big bad.  Where have I seen this before?  

I did think that Sam would agree to let Dean go, so a bit surprised he almost died again.  Should be interesting to see the effect of a dead death.

and how will they defeat this baddie if it took god and his archangels to do it before?

and of course Rowena read all of the book of the damned.  Underestimated again. 

Two seasons to go.  Should finish by the end of the month, then a quick catch up to get current.

[Katy M]

19 hours ago, Hanahope said:

and of course Rowena read all of the book of the damned.  Underestimated again. 

Whenever anyone on this show kidnaps someone to read soemthign that they can't read I find it monumentally stupid.  Like Crowley with Kevin and now Sam with Rowena.  You don't know what they're reading morons. It could be a spell for anything.  It could be a spell to kill you, or make you all powerful, or put a Mark of Cain on everybody.