S10.E23: Brother's Keeper

[RileyMay]

Death is quite an idiot. He knows those two. Probably better than any other human. Asking one of them to kill the other is stupid. He should have done it himself. Again, why didn't he if he thought that that was the most important. He really should have killed Sam himself.

Why hand over the only weapon that can possibly kill you to a guy who, at best, is a little mentally unstable at the moment and then stand close enough that he can hit you with it? Why not stand as far back as possible? Because ..... reasons? 

[AwesomO4000]

I think that moment flew by so fast, it most likely didn`t register enough with most viewers. When these writers want to make a point, they ram it into the ground and making Dean look good was IMO not one they wanted to make in the Finale. Sam had moments in the bar scene where he looked almost like a saint in comparism.

 

They had Dean preparing to sacrifice himself by putting himself in exile forever. That's pretty heroic to me. What saintly thing did Sam do in the bar scene that wasn't counteracted by the fact that he knew about the spell, didn't stop it after Death told him bad would happen, and then declared it "good" after the mark was removed? He's either 1) insanely stupid, 2) completely selfish, because having Dean back is worth releasing the darkness on the world or 3) both when/if Sam says he didn't know what would happen, but it was totally worth it.

 

As for the blame game next Season, I`m not convinced it won`t be somehow turned around on Dean.

 

I doubt it myself. The breaking of the first seal was never mentioned again after the 5th episode of season 5 where the blame was firmly shifted to Sam in the narrative as was any accidental implication that Sam trusting Ruby was Dean's fault. Neither thing was Dean's fault and it so it was reflected that way thereafter. Similarly the role that Dean's original deal may have played was also never mentioned again. The only person who's ever been narratively blamed since the beginning of season 5 for starting the apocalypse and for Sam's decision to trust Ruby - by numerous characters* and almost every season since - was Sam. I don't see why this case should be any different when in this instance its been made sure Sam's even more to blame. To me, that wouldn't make any sense.

 

* including Dean, Castiel, Gabriel, Joshua, and a whole bunch of different hunters at the least.

 

Sam didn't know about the Darkness until it was too late

 

But Death warned Sam, so then that would mean Sam is an idiot for not calling off the spell. Either way, to me it's character assassination. Since Dean didn't know about the spell, and with the new "explanation" about he mark, it was established that Dean's off the hook. Killing Death wouldn't have done anything really. Dean had already found out that he couldn't die and the mark couldn't be removed, but Dean could've always found someone else to "banish" him, hired a rogue reaper to go to purgatory, etc. We know he'd already been considering it, even. So the only real bad that happened and couldn't be avoided is because of the spell - and that's on Sam.

 

Well, I've been saying since Carver borked up Sam's character in s8, and then had Dean ignore Sam's agency trying to save his life via unapproved angel possession that Carver must hate both the boys.

 

Except that Dean's decision turned out to be a good thing. Gadreel did turn out to be "good" and was instrumental in helping Castiel save the world. Gadreel also saved Castiel, Charlie, and Sam. Yes, Kevin was killed, but that was outweighed by all the good that happened from Dean's decision, ultimately proving that Dean was right, and along the way Dean gets rid of Abaddon as well... On the other hand, when Sam makes a similar decision by helping Dean against his will, he not only contributes to Charlie getting killed, Crowley becoming a big bad again, and Rowena becoming a dangerous and powerful witch again, the result also unleashes The Darkness. Again.

 

Maybe it's just me but I'm seeing a bit of a dichotomy here.

[Goldmoon]

At the end there, Crowley didn't look extra mean, he seemed like the same old Boris when he was trying to stop Cas from killing him.

[catrox14]

I'm saying that IMO both boys have gotten shit on well and good by Carver from the beginning.

 

I think he doesn't know if wants them to sacrifice everyone for each other no matter what or that sacrificing is a completely codependent thing that needs to be fixed but it's fucking confusing is all I know. 

 

 

 

Sam hits a dog and doesn't look for Dean and Kevin - asshole

Dean kills Sam's monster friend Amy -asshole

Sam wants to kill Dean's monster friend Benny- asshole

Dean and Sam decide together to not close the gates of hell for each other instead of saving mankind from further demons- assholes

Sam is on the verge of death- Dean lets an angel in without Sam's consent - asshole

Kevin is murdered because Dean lied to Sam - asshole

Dean kicks Cas out of the bunker because he's lying -asshole

Dean takes on the MoC without regard for consequences - stupid asshole

Sam chews out Dean in the Purge and says he wouldn't save Dean under the same circumstances disprovable  -  cruel asshole

Dean kills Abaddon but becomes a psuedo monster in the process with the First Blade killing addiction - murderous asshole

Sam decides to make a deal to save Dean after his murdered - never learns asshole

demon!Dean does less worse things the MoC!Dean but he's still an - asshole

Sam gets a guy to sell his soul so he can find Dean - devious asshole

Dean kills said guy - devious asshole

Dean tries to kill Sam literally - fratricidal asshole

Sam lies to Dean whilst trying to find a cure for the Mark and allies with a lying witch - devious asshole

Dean kills eleventy billion humans under the influence of the Mark and is a dick whilst doing it - murderous asshole

They both let Darkness out - stupid assholes

 

Basically there is a whole lot of assholery to go around. LOL

[AwesomO4000]

I'm saying that IMO both boys have gotten shit on well and good by Carver from the beginning.

[snip]

 

Basically there is a whole lot of assholery to go around. LOL

 

I'll give you this to a point, but - and it's a big but - in general Dean's assholery is either generally excused here due to outside influences (the mark, he's a freakin' demon what do we expect), or he makes up for it by doing or causing good (killing Abaddon, Gadreel turns out to be crucial for the good guys). Which knocks off at least half or more of that list. Even with Amy - which happened in season 7 - it was shown that Dean was right. Sam even consented to Dean that Dean was right on that and that he (Sam) had been being a jerk about it. When Amy was brought up in season 8, it was to make Sam look like a hypocrite and an asshole - not Dean - because Benny was good in the end, so Sam was wrong for wanting to kill him, and there was no real comparison between Amy and Benny.

 

However for Sam, nothing on this list has an excuse of an outside influence or was given even a rational emotional one. In fact, the narrative went out of the way to make it so that Sam didn't apologize for Dean or Kevin, and no emotional reason was given beyond Sam shrugging his shoulders and saying "but we agreed  (somwehere offscreen we never saw or had heard of before) that we wouldn't try to bring the other back" (even though we never in the history of the show ever did that before).

 

And this episode - to me - is just a condensed microcosm of Mr. Carver's whole attitude on the matter. Whereas the narrative goes out of the way to show that Dean knows nothing about Sam's plans with the mark - further establishing beforehand that Dean reinforced again that he didn't want Sam doing anything with the Book of the Damned - and adds in the whole thing about how even Lucifer, an archangel, went bad due to the mark's influence, so no wonder Dean was acting like such an asshole - it entirely slams Sam. In the beginning of the episode, we have Castiel again warning Sam not to use the book and not to let Rowena have it, but Sam persists and does both with both leading to disastrous results. Then we have Death warning about the mark, but Sam does nothing to stop the spell. No excuses given. He can't say that he wasn't warned or that he didn't know.

 

So for me it's not that both brothers haven't been given the "asshole" treatment at some point. It's that one is generally excused or has positive results, while the other isn't and always fails spectacularly, causes huge problems... even when the original actions are somewhat similar.* And since it's been happening for 3 seasons now, I can't claim coincidence any more. Considering I predicted Sam would be the goat being set up for the fall about half a dozen episodes ago, I think Carver's intentions were pretty well telegraphed - at least in my opinion. His token - "oh look how awesome Sam's being towards Dean" moments are beside the point and once again damning Sam with faint praise, in my opinion.

 

* Even if we compare Dean taking on the mark of Cain to Sam drinking demon blood, in this case it's still Sam who causes the apocalypse. If left to his devises Dean would've likely found a way to get himself to purgatory or whatever. It's often generally been if Sam does something, horrible stuff happens, but if Dean does it, usually the consequences are either good or the bad is much, much less.

Edited May 22, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[SueB]

So wait a minute... Dean was a key? * Does that mean Dean = Dawn? Or was Sam Dawn, because Dean (Buffy) didn't kill him? Except Dean and/or Sam forgot to close the dimensional door and all the inter-dimensional monsters... uh I mean The Darkness got out.

Wait....do you think there's a connection between Ben and Glory?

 

Did a second rewatch and picked up a bunch.  Before going into that, let me address a couple big themes/questions.  Warning: I'm not negative about this finale (some parts I thought were poorly done but in general I liked it):

- Dean's personality: He was 100% pure punishing asshole. He was as hurtful and rude to anyone that was near him as he could be.  Even the dead girl.  Gets the "mind whammy" pass from me.  Moving on. 

- Death letting himself get killed: It could be Dean surprised him, but it sure FELT like a test to hand Dean the blade to kill Sam.  I'm not going to call Death stupid until the other shoe drops (whatever puts us back in steady state next year).

- Just because I liked the finale (for the most part), doesn't mean it was a success. Too early to tell "general" fan opinion IMO. If the ratings don't start off higher in the fall, S11 will be the last year IMO. A lot of people hated Dean being a demon at the end of S9 and there was a great deal of excitement to see what he'd do in S10. 

 

On second rewatch (bolded to help with skimming to what you may or maynot be interested in):

 

- Sam with the special sauce bullets.  I kinda liked that they went to another "special weapon" and this time it wasn't helpful.  But Sam honey, you are so off the reservation with panic right now.  I GET his argument.  He doesn't trust Dean with the vague "it'll be bad".  I can see him not just accepting that.  If I was going to lose the most important person in my life to "It'll be bad", I'd probably want something more specific.  And Dean has had a history of lying to Sam or insisting that Sam just do what Dean says.  Although Dean has been incredibly OPEN with Sam this year, just taking Dean's instinct that "It'll be bad." is understandably hard for Sam.  It's not a faith in Dean thing so much as Dean is affected by the Mark and Sam is not sure WHAT truth is.  I didn't care for Cas reminding him of the consequences cause I feel like that was just Cas playing devils advocate (wow, there's a phrase that really doesn't work in this universe anymore ... the devil is far too literal).  Bottom line: I'm glad Sam articulated WHY he kept pushing and think he has a good argument. It may not be genre-savvy (of COURSE it'll turn out bad!), but it makes sense in-universe to me.

- Dean waking up on the gross scruffy carpet floor. I may or maynot have had a personal flashback moment. Yeah, he drank until he passed out.  Which means he's not able to sleep and it probably took a shit-ton of alcohol to make him pass out.  I'd say the Mark is physically affecting him again.

- Dean asshole scene (asshole to dead girl, Rudy, & sheriff). The way he kept staring at her -- he just felt pissed off at the waste of life.  The whore comment was awful. Now combine that with the Heisman he was giving Rudy and the sheriff -- IDK...his head is in a very dark place and it's like he think he should to roll around in monsterland but he doesn't want anyone with him. And he doesn't think anyone else can handle it BUT him. But he also wants to HURT people and he's saying the most hurtful things he can. Like telling Rudy he's just playing dress-up.  They have established just the slightest hint that Rudy might be sensitive to getting Dean's help back in Paint It Black.

- Rowena -- she is one cool under pressure witch.  I'm surprised Sam hasn't kneecapped her just out of sheer piss-offed-ness.  She knows how to push buttons doesn't she? Although she IS correct -- tea DOES solve most of the problems of the world.

- Interview with the parents. First he seems to be taking it easy on them. And then when he sees the uncomfortable picture of the girl with her Dad, he REALLY turns on the hurt.  Am I the only once that thought "the deceit, and the beatings, and the shame that pervade this home" was code-word for "sexual abuse by the father"?  Because that's what I think was going on. He was blaming BOTH the mother and father for Rose getting murdered. He mostly blamed the Dad but the Mom let it happened, so she got a verbal slap.  And when he said "Joe, who did this?", he really meant that it was Joe's fault.  And with the religious fundamentalism overtones, he also blames Mom. Chilling. And right up their with righteous indignation without filters.  I'm surprised he didn't put two slugs in the guy right then.  Also interesting that there was no physical signs from Joe hitting him.  Does he have some healing mojo back? Finally, since there was a plumber's truck out front, that makes BadDad Joe the Plumber. Hee.

- And then the brother admits he took the girls out there.  Anyone else think it was for money or drugs?  This WHOLE SITUATION COULDN'T BE UGLIER.  And Dean was just resigned to it.  It was fugly as it gets IMO.

- The spell. I kinda liked the symmetry. Although making a witch sacrifice her virtual heart is awfully "Once Upon a Time".  And WHEN did Sam get THAT much hair off of Dean?  Somehow him having his hair and KNOWING it would be needed was kinda right. I also liked Sam's exasperation with the Mission Impossible nature of the ingredients.

- Those vampires were REALLY minor league. Dean was just so "done" with the hunt before it even started.  And really, what was blond vamps plan? Walk out with Rudy as a hostage?  That was his only move.  I think Dean just wanted it over. Perhaps he thought startling blondy would allow Rudy to "man up" and take away the knife.  But Rudy wasn't Sam and he wasn't capable of that kind of move.  So, he saves the girl, who rightly thinks he's a psychopath.  I think the point of this crappy low-level shitty hunt where he was decidedly NON-heroic was to prove to him that he can't even hunt solo for satisfaction anymore. There was NO relief from his plight in hunting.  After getting his slaughter-on with the Stynes, if he can't get happiness from hunting...what ELSE is Dean going to do? So, I think the point of that whole misadventure was not simply to get another innocent (Rudy) killed, but to show Dean that even hunting was over for him.   

- Lady MacDean. Good scene.  "Out, out damned spot!"  Clearly this is where Dean just gets his rage on realizing he's DONE and needs to be removed from the world. I wonder if he believed he was having actual hallucinations? I also like the metaphor about trashing his "life". Because a crappy motel and the car WERE his hunting life (before the MoL...which he 'soiled' last week with the Cas beat down).

- I liked the understated way Sam survey's the physical, emotional, and moral carnage Dean left behind.

- Cas & Crowley.  This may be my new OTP.  "Your not in my contacts".  Should that be filed under "C" for Crowley,"K" for King of Hell", or "D" for Devil?  This may be why Cas never put in his number.  And Crowley is so PETTY here.  But of course he's going to help.  This is a chance to get back at Rowena and TFW.  Once again proving he's useful and stabbing his mother in the virtual heart.  I'm not so sure Crowley is completely ruthless again. He got a kick out of being "in" IMO. And poor Cas...he's REALLY having to roll around in the muck here.

- Yes, I cried over the note. It was well done. And I'm glad the writers know the audience understand EXACTLY what that note meant.

- Juan's (aka Johns.. how appropriate!): Dean seems so much more settled now that he's decided what to do. I'm pretty sure that's the same ingredients/incantation from EP 7.1 except not the binding part.  Did Dean just REMEMBER that or did he have it written down (in case of emergencies...summon Death)? And of course I loved that he picked his own favorite food (greasy Tex-Mex) as an offering.  Plus the little things like "yeah..yes" ... i.e. showing deference to Death with proper English.

- Death's exposition: Works for me. Seems to me that God tried out Leviathan's as his helpers, they were a bust. So he went for Archangels as his helpers and they got the job done. It doesn't bother me about the sequence of when he created Purgatory (and thus locked Leviathans away), or that he gave the Permanent key and lock to Lucifer. I'm not so sure Luci wouldn't have gone bad WITHOUT the Mark.  But yes, I can see why some would think it Mary Sue's Dean up a bit. But IDK.. the Angels weren't always the sharpest knives in the drawer (even Archangels) and Dean was a helluva lot more prepared to take the Mark than Cain.  So... mkay. But then we get the offer to "share". And I don't know if that's going to come BACK or if it was just there to fake out those who were worried Sam would get the Mark. Fortunately Dean rejects it. 

- Loved the bro-call.  "Brother I'm done." *sob*

- Oscar/Seth: THIS was the weakest part of the episode for me.  I was very much ... so? I like the deliciously painfulness of Crowley realizing Rowena just didn't love HIM, but Oscar seemed pretty much a dim bulb. I couldn't find ANY reason that resonated why she would remotely love Oscar.  I get the 8 year old son was a substitute for Crowley and all... but ...meh...WHY? And she hasn't bothered looking him up ever since.  Just rang... contrivance ... to me.

- Juan's cantina: Loved the Dean/Sam/Death dialog. Once again, Dean is willing to take an authority figure at his word (well Hello Death) and Sam is like "this is bullshit".  I really like the call-back to their default mindsets.  I do believe BOTH brothers have grown, quite a bit actually, but their instinctual reaction is still there. Death taunting Sam a bit seems beneath him, OTOH, maybe this is Death's way of holding Sam accountable for the "yes" to Dean/Gadreel.  I certainly put that mostly on Dean but I could see Death taking a harsher view. 

- Crowley's exposition regarding Mommy issues seemed a bit unnecessary - we've all figured it out - but I suspect the writers get complaints about being too obtuse so... oookay.  Oscar..yes, die now. I felt worse for the blonde in Girls, Girls, Girls. And Ruth Connell, who I like, even she couldn't sell that thin motivation for her love. I did like Crowley getting his revenge. I was disappointed Cas stood by and let it happen.  Cas needs a meltdown last year over everything that he's let happen.

- I REALLY loved Dean going all Righteous Man on Sam.  I personally think Dean was right -- all those things (both what he did and what Sam did) were bad, boarding on evil acts.  But Sam is ALSO right.  That doesn't make Dean evil just because he committed an evil act.  Dean doesn't see that (until the end).  Dean thinks that he did evil acts so he's evil and needs to be put down. Back to black and white thinking . John Winchester style.  But Sam's got the better argument, that Dean and Sam are both "good" people. Now, these last few months they've done some REALLY sketchy things (crossing over into inherently wrong acts IMO).  So I like the debate.  And I like the fight.  This is how Dean would cope with his frustration.  But Dean is so physically un-beatable right now...he just lets Sam get out his anger.  And then Jared and Jense RIP MY FREAKING HEART OUT.  Jared has such a little boy face. And Dean saying "close your eyes" TWICE.  Yep, that's my heart right there on the floor... bleeding out and looking mangled. Well acted.

- Death's Death - well I think handing Dean Winchester a scythe that can kill you is nothing but a test.  I don't know if Dean passed or failed, to be honest. But I think that when Dean realized Sam was letting Dean kill him even though he STILL BELIEVED in him, that was the moment Dean made his choice. It was, to some extent, Sam trusting that Dean was doing what needed to be done, even if Sam disagreed. And Dean saw it. Again.  This was "Point of No Return", not Swan Song. And Sam was right - Sam and Dean are not inherently evil. So he's gonna fight for them. Dean's "Forgive me." was, I think Dean asking Sam to forgive him for killing Death rather than killing Sam.  I think there was INTENT in Dean's eyes when he swung the axe into Death.  Although he kinda looked shocked it worked, I don't think he was shocked that he didn't kill Sam and hit Death instead. I think it was a conscious act.

- Aftermath was a bit anticlimatic. Ruth did a great job selling the spell and her UTTER RUTHLESSNESS (hee.. funny pun...sorry, I'll show myself out).  She won "most fabulous villain" in that episode for me.  Others were more scary, more deadly, but Rowena is fabulous.

- I'm up for the Darkness. Yes, it's obviously a vague concept and we are reliant on them coming up with a good payoff.  Still, I'm going to be counting the days to season opening. for S11. 

Edited May 22, 2015 by SueB

[Mick Lady]

Why hand over the only weapon that can possibly kill you to a guy who, at best, is a little mentally unstable at the moment and then stand close enough that he can hit you with it? Why not stand as far back as possible? Because ..... reasons? 

 

I agree. In fact when Dean attacked Death, I half expected Death to pull an Azazel and say; "Oh my, I'm shocked at this unforeseen turn of events"

 

Death is far too smart to let Dean get the best of him. Something's up for sure!

[AwesomO4000]

Wait....do you think there's a connection between Ben and Glory?

 

Hee. Sam and Dean so needed Spike to smack them upside the head.

 

I didn't care for Cas reminding him of the consequences cause I feel like that was just Cas playing devils advocate (wow, there's a phrase that really doesn't work in this universe anymore ... the devil is far too literal).  Bottom line: I'm glad Sam articulated WHY he kept pushing and think he has a good argument. It may not be genre-savvy (of COURSE it'll turn out bad!), but it makes sense in-universe to me.

 

And I think here is where my main objection was. Believe it or not, I actually sort of really liked the finale on first impression... it wasn't until I thought about it and what scenes like this meant, that I started becoming a bit annoyed. It seemed as you said, like that scene was there mostly for Castiel to be that devil's advocate and point to "maybe this is wrong" even though we all knew the plot was going to have Sam do it anyway. I guess it's that kind of thing I find annoying. Not only do they have Sam do the wrong thing, but they have to point a big flashing sign at it. Repeatedly.

 

Am I the only once that thought "the deceit, and the beatings, and the shame that pervade this home" was code-word for "sexual abuse by the father"?

 

No. My mind went there also. And I also agree, there was a reason that the brother didn't tell the police about the place. There was enough guilt there that he would risk the potential to save the other girl, and that seems like it would be hiding more than "I introduced my sister to these guys." A whole bunch of secrets and lies there, and Dean was disgusted by all of it. The dead girl dressing like a slut to me seemed like what Dean thought were the very least of this family's sins... and in a way I thought that was just as much of a slam on the policeman - much more so than the girl herself - anyway. As in "can't you see this girl is dressed all slutty? Don't you think there might be a reason for that and that it might be important to actually solving the case?"

 

Dean was just so "done" with the hunt before it even started.  And really, what was blond vamps plan? Walk out with Rudy as a hostage?  That was his only move.  I think Dean just wanted it over. Perhaps he thought startling blondy would allow Rudy to "man up" and take away the knife.

 

And I think Dean was just so done with Rudy, too. Dean told Rudy to get out of the way and that he was out of his league and every other warning he could possibly give the guy. Rudy stupidly went in anyway, and Dean was not in the mood to potentially put the civilian at risk to save his sorry ass. The girl might have thought Dean was a psycho, but what was Dean supposed to do? Drop his weapon and hope the nice vampire would leave and not kill Rudy anyway? Or the girl? Or try to kill Dean? Benny might have been a good vampire, but this one did not seem like the negotiating type to me, and he appeared to be an idiot on top of that. Instead of running away, he thought taking a hostage was a better idea? Had he never heard about hunters before?

 

I came out of that not really feeling that Dean did much of anything wrong there. I personally blamed Rudy there myself more than anyone. He's a hunter. The civilian is supposed to come first, and Dean dropping his weapon was likely to put her at more risk than Dean not dropping his weapon.

Edited May 23, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

 

to be done, even if Sam disagreed. And Dean saw it. Again.  This was "Point of No Return", not Swan Song. And Sam was right - Sam and Dean are not inherently evil. So he's gonna fight for them. Dean's "Forgive me." was, I think Dean asking Sam to forgive him for killing Death rather than killing Sam.  I think there was INTENT in Dean's eyes when he swung the axe into Death.  Although he kinda looked shocked it worked, I don't think he was shocked that he didn't kill Sam and hit Death instead. I think it was a conscious act.

 

Its so interesting to me how we all have such different perceptions.  I thought the only moment when Dean MIGHT have been thinking about killing Death was when he turned and looked at Death in that long shot of Death by the stage (I think it was a stage). I was looking for a Point of No Return moment in that last act before he took a swing, but I'm still on the side that the intest was to kill Sam and that whatever happened he was not in complete control over.

 

I just thought his reactions were too shocked and confused. IMO if Dean had made that plan even in that split second, we would have seen it. And Dean would have been, "okay...so I just did that. HOLY SHIT " Dean would have been a little bit cocky and a little bit terrified, but to me he was plain old flummoxed and flummoxed and confused as to what just happened.  I also think he would have told Sam that he had intended to do that like he did in PoNR.  Maybe he will later but for now, I don't think Dean had any reason to kill Death unless he sussed out that Death wasn't what he seemed, which I hope turns out to be the case.

 

I can make a case for Death not being who he seemed. Strap in or feel free to my past my dissertation.  Either that wasn't truly Death or Carver is a dolt and is purposefully changing who Death has always been. I hope it wasn't Death because Carver ruining another great character is just pushing me away from the show and I love this show even when I hate it.

 

The question I asked way back was why  Death didn't just resurrect Cain if he was so concerned about keeping the Mark as the Lock to keep out the Darkness. Some thought Death could not resurrect so I checked Super Wiki, which I think we generally agree is reliable source for all things SPN. 

 

Powers and Abilities

    He can raise the dead and resurrect anyone he wants.

    He can manipulate the weather to whatever he chooses or wants it to be.

    Has extensive knowledge of the universe.

    Can practically do whatever he wants and go wherever he wants.

Weaknesses

    He can be bound (as he was imprisoned for thousands of years beneath the Earth).

    Can be killed by his own scythe.

 

Since he can resurrect the dead, why wouldn't he resurrect Cain who is the obvious choice to keep the Lock in place, freeing Dean of the Mark and the responsibility and Sam can live?

 

But Death's argument was that Sam owed him because he had stood him up along with with the idea that Sam would continue to try and save Dean no matter what. 

 

Thinking more I don't think that is really true at all.  Whilst Death is all about the natural order but he doesn't  manipulate you for that to happen. He explains the consequences of not going but ultimately he leaves the choice to you and you live with the consequences, like Dean in Appt in Samarra or becoming a bad ghost. 

 

Death didn't resurrect Sam, a crossroad demon did, so one makes a deal with a crossroads demon, If anything Dean owes Death his life, but it seems to me the natural order is still intact because someone died. When Sam jumped into the pit, IIRC he never died did he? since he was Lucifer's meatsuit and was in the cage. But when Cas got him out, his soul was left behind but I don't remember that Sam actually died (someone help me with this). 

 

In s8 he opted out of the trials so he wouldn't die but then he was dying anyway. And in 9.1 Death agreed to let Sam go if that was what Sam really wanted. So I didn't understand why Death still thought Sam owed him something when Sam's resurrections were never a deal Sam made.

 

Death doesn't judge your life, except of course in Sam's comascape,  which we still don't know if that was actual!Death or coma!Death, but he said "I try so hard not to pass judgment at times like this – not my bag, you see, but you... Well played, my boy."  Yet he's judging Dean as a stain on his family and using that to get Dean to kill Sam. But then he finally threatens and says, "Do it, Dean.....or I will". Since when does Death threaten like that?  Death clearly needed Dean to kill Sam himself..and why would actual!Death put his scythe in Dean's hand when Dean could kill him.

 

I think that was Metatron because the manipulation and threats are right up Metatron's alley. Or it's an avatar for Metatron. 

 

But I don't think that was actual Death. And my last argument is that if that was actual!Death then Dean should have become Death himself immediately.  The world cannot live without Death. 

 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. YMMV :)

Edited May 23, 2015 by catrox14

[Mick Lady]

Am I the only once that thought "the deceit, and the beatings, and the shame that pervade this home" was code-word for "sexual abuse by the father"?

 

 

Not at all. That's exactly where my mind went too. Maybe TMoC gives Dean some insight into human nature?

[catrox14]

sorry for the double post

Edited May 23, 2015 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

Yet he's judging Dean as a stain on his family and using that to get Dean to kill Sam.

 

I thought Death was saying that the mark was going to turn Dean into a stain on his family, and that Dean should leave the playing field before that happened. I thought that Death was saying that he thought Dean was above / better than what the mark would turn him into. I'll have to rewatch, but that was the impression that I got.

[Mick Lady]

I like you guys, I truly do. But God Damn it!  Between  SueB, AwesomO4000, and catrox14, my head is ready to explode!

 

It's supposed to rain here all weekend, and now I have to talk Mick into watching all nine seasons of Supernatural. This is going to cost me.

[catrox14]

I thought Death was saying that the mark was going to turn Dean into a stain on his family, and that Dean should leave the playing field before that happened. I thought that Death was saying that he thought Dean was above / better than what the mark would turn him into. I'll have to rewatch, but that was the impression that I got.

 

Oh I got exactly the opposite. That he was already passing judgment and that Dean was already leaving a stain.  But I think even with your perception, Death is still using a psychological/emotional manipulation that I don't think is how Death would roll here.

 

To me Death would not want to be bothered with eht Winchesters anymore when he could have just resurrected the only other bearer of the Mark since he had the power. I can't think of any compelling reason for actual!Death to give the terms he did. 

[rue721]

Wouldn't it be fun if that version of Death was a witch's illusion, like the illusionary!kid they used to trick Cain?

 

I'd like it if it turned out that it to have been an illusion -- and that Crowley in particular was behind it. Because it would make Crowley cooperating with Cas/TFW and then just standing there watching Rowena complete the spell -- and just generally not doing anything evil during this episode that I remember -- make more sense. I mean, it would make more sense if what we saw him doing (which was pretty much nothing) were all just a ruse, while the Winchesters played into his actual scheme. Death wouldn't really have a reason to want to kill Sam and to prove Dean is a betrayer, but Crowley TOTALLY DOES, since he and Sam "had words" in the previous episode, and Crowley's probably still sore about Dean betraying him/pushing him away.

 

Plus, Crowley's the one who knows the most about the Mark and has been pulling the strings in terms of getting it onto Dean, etc -- he had to know that getting rid of it would unleash The Darkness, right?

[AwesomO4000]

He [Death] can raise the dead and resurrect anyone he wants.

 

But the last time he did that they all turned into zombies. Have we ever had an instance where Death has just plain resurrected someone and they were just fine?

 

Death got Sam's soul - which I am assuming that Sam was sort of dead then in a way since his soul was not in his body. We don't know if his body was dead when Castiel got it out, because Castiel might have resurrected the body. So to answer your other question about Sam, catrox14, I think we don't know whether Sam died or not. Considering his soul and body were maybe not together when Cas got him out seems to point to he died after falling into the hole though. So I'm not sure if Death could be considered having "raised" Sam so much as manipulated his soul... which as Death he generally does anyway.

[catrox14]

I was thinking this as well, Rue.

But the last time he did that they all turned into zombies. Have we ever had an instance where Death has just plain resurrected someone and they were just fine?

 

Death got Sam's soul - which I am assuming that Sam was sort of dead then in a way since his soul was not in his body. We don't know if his body was dead when Castiel got it out, because Castiel might have resurrected the body. So to answer your other question about Sam, catrox14, I think we don't know whether Sam died or not. Considering his soul and body were maybe not together when Cas got him out seems to point to he died after falling into the hole though. So I'm not sure if Death could be considered having "raised" Sam so much as manipulated his soul... which as Death he generally does anyway.

 

I thought the Walking Dead was to manipulate Bobby via his wife? I don't think Death resurrecting people = zombies every single time. If he can re-ensoul then IMO he can control the life force within the resurrected being.

[AwesomO4000]

But can he make a body alive alive is the question. Angels can do that, but I don't know if Death can do that. He manipulates souls already when he takes them, so it would make sense that he could do things with souls. It's the actual getting a body to be alive and stay alive that I wonder about.

 

The reanimated I get. I'm just not sure of actual "living" also.

[SueB]

I like you guys, I truly do. But God Damn it! Between SueB, AwesomO4000, and catrox14, my head is ready to explode!

It's supposed to rain here all weekend, and now I have to talk Mick into watching all nine seasons of Supernatural. This is going to cost me.

Well, I'm busted. If I don't write that all down then it's rattling around in MY head, attempting to explode. Sorry for the long read and thank you for your patience.

Not only do they have Sam do the wrong thing, but they have to point a big flashing sign at it. Repeatedly.

No. My mind went there also. And I also agree, there was a reason that the brother didn't tell the police about the place. There was enough guilt there that he would risk the potential to save the other girl, and that seems like it would be hiding more than "I introduced my sister to these guys." A whole bunch of secrets and lies there, and Dean was disgusted by all of it. The dead girl dressing like a slut to me seemed like what Dean thought were the very least of this family's sins... and in a way I thought that was just as much of a slam on the policeman - much more so than the girl herself - anyway. As in "can't you see this girl is dressed all slutty? Don't you think there might be a reason for that and that it might be important to actually solving the case?"

And I think Dean was just so done with Rudy, too. Dean told Rudy to get out of the way and that he was out of his league and every other warning he could possibly give the guy. Rudy stupidly went in anyway, and Dean was not in the mood to potentially put the civilian at risk to save his sorry ass. The girl might have thought Dean was a psycho, but what was Dean supposed to do? Drop his weapon and hope the nice vampire would leave and not kill Rudy anyway? Or the girl? Or try to kill Dean? Benny might have been a good vampire, but this one did not seem like the negotiating type to me, and he appeared to be an idiot on top of that. Instead of running away, he thought taking a hostage was a better idea? Had he never heard about hunters before?

I came out of that not really feeling that Dean did much of anything wrong there. I personally blamed Rudy there myself more than anyone. He's a hunter. The civilian is supposed to come first, and Dean dropping his weapon was likely to put her at more risk than Dean not dropping his weapon.

1) then Carver failed (with me at least) because I thought Sam made a good point.

2) Yes. This. If it's a small town why didn't the sheriff know. Suddenly asshole Dean seems less asshole and more unfiltered.

3) yeah, Rudy was dead soon if not on that hunt. But Dean still should have handled it with more finesse IMO. He just has zero fuse left.

Its so interesting to me how we all have such different perceptions. ...

I'm still on the side that the intest was to kill Sam and that whatever happened he was not in complete control over.

...

I can make a case for Death not being who he seemed. Strap in or feel free to my past dissertation ...

He can raise the dead and resurrect anyone he wants.

....

Can be killed by his own scythe.

...

Whilst Death is all about the natural order but he doesn't manipulate you for that to happen. He explains the consequences of not going but ultimately he leaves the choice to you and you live with the consequences, like Dean in Appt in Samarra or becoming a bad ghost.

...

Death doesn't judge your life, except of course in Sam's comascape, which we still don't know if that was actual!Death or coma!Death, but he said "I try so hard not to pass judgment at times like this – not my bag, you see, but you... Well played, my boy." Yet he's judging Dean as a stain on his family and using that to get Dean to kill Sam. But then he finally threatens and says, "Do it, Dean.....or I will". Since when does Death threaten like that? Death clearly needed Dean to kill Sam himself..and why would actual!Death put his scythe in Dean's hand when Dean could kill him.

:)

I enjoyed the full dissertation!

1) I hope we get Intel asbout Dean's headspace from Jensen this weekend at AHBL con. But I can certasinly see it being different than what I said.

2) I remember 'the barn version of The Walking Dead' but I don't remember a resurrection. I'll have to re-watch the Deasth episodes, Faith, and In My Time of Dying. Unless, Dean living in 2.1 is 'the resurrection'. Technically he didn't die BUT he was miraculously healed. So....hmmmm. I feel Angel of Death raationale forming in my mind.

3) Just the fact that he would hand a Winchester HIS scythe seems to make the situation suspect

4) IA, Death is not a judge to thwart free will. OTOH, he's been awfully judgey about Dean being an annoying protozoan. So...him saying Sam dies makes sense in order to prevent the Mark's removal, but him actually reaping him himself? IDK. Seems like he actually couldn't DO that. That might be against whatever rules the universe is run by. Because he wasn't reaping Sam when the natural order said it was time. He was choosing that as a solution. Seems off.

5) I don't know about it being Boogertron but I am convinced he'll show in S11.

Edited May 23, 2015 by SueB

[Miles]

QUOTE

It is the phrase I've put in bold that troubles me. The implication is that such women are throwaway trash that are marked for victimization.  But perhaps I've misunderstood you.

Ah, come on. Everybody on this show is throwaway trash and marked for victimization, except the brothers. This episode we had two men being killed, one by a woman who seems to be the new big bad and is incredibly powerfull. This show has many problems, but misogyny isn't one of them. Edited May 23, 2015 by Miles

[miles2go]

Ah, come on. Everybody on this show is throwaway trash and marked for victimization, except the brothers. This episode we had two men being killed, one by a woman who seems to be the new big bad and is incredibly powerfull. This show has many problems, but misogyny isn't one of them.

I made no claim that the show was misogynistic.

[7kstar]

Please tell me I'm not the only one who thinks they ripped off The Nothing from The Neverending Story. Next season on Supernatural...the Winchesters battle for Fantasia.

 

Well at least we could have a simple solution, all fans connect to the same storyline and believe the brother's are heroes enjoying saving people and we wipe out a lot of season 8-10.  Our faith would literally rewrite all the stupid issues and we could have a blame free zone for both DEAN & SAM!!!

So 24 hours after the season finale and I'm still confused by what the hell just happened.

Dean summoning death to kill him for good and avoid the Mark (snip)

And speaking of confusing, can anyone help me understand how the book of the damned could have a spell to remove the Mark if it is so primordial and important to God or why the ingredients for the spell would be things that didn't exist until millions(?) of years after the Mark was created.

And the smoke effects for the darkness reminded me way too much of the demons smoke effects from the end of All Hell Breaks Loose 2 and the leviathan blackness at the beginning of season 7. Nowhere near as cool as the Angels falling to earth at the end of season eight or even the semi smashing into the Impala.

While I am sure my enthusiasm will grow closer to the season 11 premiere date, right now I'm just pretty much meh about the ep and the next season.

Part of my complaint is too much is thrown into this ep, and told instead of being shown.  So yeah, it doesn't make sense.

 

I too thought here's a repeat of the demons escaping hell and will both boys  be returned to their glory and once again remember they died????

 

I thought Jensen commented that he thought is was Carver's best finale, too. But as I mentioned to someone else yesterday, I don't necessarily disagree with him. It's not like any of Carver's finale's have been very good, IMO. To me, they've all been kind of meandering and full of long-winded speeches that seem like someone thinks he's deeper than he really is. And, I find Carver tends to skip over what's actually important and instead tells us things that seem really obvious and doesn't need all the 'splaining. So it's like a tortoise coming in first place in a race with a slug and a snail.

 

I agree with Jared too, IMO, it was Bizarro Swan Song...in which, Sam gets pummeled to show Dean how much he loves him which also compels Dean to take control long enough to take out a big player. Bizarro twists would be: Photos stood in for a toy soldier; Death wasn't an actual problem, as far as we knew; Dean didn't die; and an apocalypse was started rather than ended.

 

Now, I'm not someone who loved Swan Song, but IMO this episode paled in so many ways to Swan Song. Everything was so easy and everyday until the big bad black smoke and then it was over. They killed Death and it felt like just another day at the office. The whole episode felt like it was spinning it's wheels while waiting to show us the special effects of the Darkness, but even that seemed rather uninspiring to me. I don't know, I just didn't really feel much of anything while watching it. At least during Swan Song I was worried about Dean and what he would do. Here, I really just didn't care anymore.

 

 

I totally got why Death would want Sam dead, obviously Sam wasn't going to let things go this time. And I figured Dean volunteered to be the one to do it because he probably felt it was better for him to do it rather than Death. But, I kept thinking Death was also testing Dean. Almost like he was wanting proof Dean had finally learned the lesson Death had been trying to teach him all these years. But they played it so straight in the end, so I'm now not sure if there was anything more to it.

 

 

I find I say that about most of Carver's episodes lately. The important things seems to happen off camera. Sam's confession at the end of S8; what Sam did before he hit the dog and what Dean did before he met Benny in Purgatory; etc. It's not like I can't guess these things happened, but the story looses it's potency for me when he skips over these character developments. It's like he wants to have a character driven show, but doesn't want the characters to actually drive the show. Does that even make any sense? Sorry, moving on.

 

 

I've been saying the show makes more sense--okay not so much the show as a whole, but the characters anyway--if you pretend S8 and on is a different show with characters named Sam and Dean Winchester, but aren't. It doesn't solve all my issues with the show, but my biggest frustration--why are Sam and Dean acting not like Sam and Dean--is less so this way.

 

The show I loved was 2 brothers fighting the bad fight to stay on the path so the world would be better, not interested in the brothers destroying the world.

I thought Jensen commented that he thought is was Carver's best finale, too. But as I mentioned to someone else yesterday, I don't necessarily disagree with

Damning with feint praise? I dunno. I wonder if what was in script and was filmed was edited into what we got. I mean he might have read it and was happy but then something changes. But of course Jensen is not particularly critical publicly about things. I mean for him to say he and the writers wished demon! Dean had been around longer and that he didn't understand what they're doing with Fan Fiction is about the strongest, most public disagreement I've heard him mention.

Heh. I was thinking, what if they actually just killed off all of the main four in one fell swoop. The boys die together and Cas kills Crowley and then he dies. That would be amazing.

And awful. I think it might be that all four have to actually become allies now for real to beat down the darkness. TEAM NOT EXACTLY FREE WILL

I forgot what convention it was, but they had finished the final and Jensen was acting excited about it.  It may be he felt excited due to the acting challenges.  I know there are plays I would love to perform, but I would never want to watch.  JMV

[AwesomO4000]

1) then Carver failed (with me at least) because I thought Sam made a good point

 

I didn't mean to imply that Sam didn't have a point. I mostly meant that generally the way this happens is: Sam has a point, and in a lot of ways it's actually a good point and even makes sense. Almost everyone else has the completely opposite point, and sometimes it's not even as well thought out as Sam's point, but that doesn't matter. They tell it to Sam multiple times, so that we can't miss that every one has warned Sam. Then everything happens the way everyone else but Sam said that it would, and Sam ends up causing an apocalypse. It happened in season 4 and it happened here. And so my point was did Mr. Carver really have to have Castiel pointing out again in this episode that Sam shouldn't do this? We already had Death give his warning, so did we really need the chorus? I got it the first half dozen times everyone said it, so much so that I knew Sam was going to start an apocalypse about 5 episodes ago.

 

I sometimes wonder if I'm just seeing it through a biased lens, but then I think about similar situations with other characters like Dean - and sometimes Castiel, but sometimes he gets a similar to Sam treatment as well - and it just seems stacked against Sam sometimes.

 

The rest of this post I'm moving over to the bitterness thread. It has a bunch of what I think are relevant points, but it veered off into ranty, so to be safe, I moved it there.

 

Warning: The next bit is being brought to you by the letter C for cynical. Please proceed at your own risk...

 

catrox14 (from way back on page 4): And what's shittier is that I can't figure out if the brothers being willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good was what they really wanted us to root for or for one to not kill the other.

 

My new cynical theory* : I think the answer is -  In the last few seasons, generally whichever opinion Dean holds at the moment is the correct one, even if it totally contradicted his previous opinion. ** Example: In season 8, Dean saves Sam, damn the consequences even though Sam thinks they should save the world instead = right. We lose Kevin, but ultimately good happens, because Gadreel saves Castiel, Sam, and Charlie and helps save the world, so not sacrificing your brother for the world is mostly good. In season 10, Sam saves Dean, damn the consequences, even though Dean thinks they should save the world instead = wrong. We lose Charlie, Crowley may be ultra evil again, Rowena gets a dangerous book and power, who knows what's going to happen to Castiel, and The Darkness is released. Not sacrificing your brother to save the world is bad. Same goes for trusting monsters, angels, and sometimes demons. If Dean trusts them they're generally good***, if Castiel or Sam trusts them, they're generally bad (unless Dean trusted them first).

 

* And for more detail, another example, and my reasoning if you're interested, please see my explanation in the "Bitterness" thread.

** There are exceptions, I'm sure, but the one off the top of my head was when Dean changed his mind and wanted to say "yes" to Michael. That wasn't seen as the right course of action. This seems to be more of a Carver thing, because I think there are many more examples in his era of this sort of thing.

*** The jury is still out on Crowley. Recently, he was mostly being helpful - Sam and Dean both had him on their cell phone list for goodness sakes - until Sam tried to kill him. He might still somehow end up doing good in the upcoming battle against The Darkness. If it fits the pattern, he will end up doing "good."

[mertensia]

Awesome I also thought that it wasn't Dean who missed Sam and killed Death-it was the MoC. Because I do find it plausible that the MoC and the Darkness want Death dead.

[Miles]

I made no claim that the show was misogynistic.

You did, you just didn't use that specific word.

If I describe a person who sees people different based on their race, I don't have to specifically call them a racist. I already did indirectly.

[trxr4kids]

I've decided that everything that's happened on the show since the season 7 finale is all in Sam's head. When Dean disappeared he lost his stone number one and went nuts. He's been hallucinating this whole time while residing in an institution. Dean and Cas didn't go to Purgatory. Cas transported them away from the backlash but didn't get them back in time to find Sam and let him know because he was communing with bees in some foreign country, Dean obviously had no way to return on his own. I can't wait for season 11 and their joyous reunion! That's my headcannon and I'm sticking to it.

[supposebly]

Excellent! May I join in your head canon?

[bethy]

Me, too? I like that head canon and look forward to seeing it come to fruition in season 11.

 

ETA: I'll offer my own belief that the institution has given Sam a haircut. 

Edited May 23, 2015 by bethy

[supposebly]

I liked season 8 and 9 hair, so, since it's been 3 years, I can work with him getting a haircut in the third year.

[trxr4kids]

Sadly there's ample room in my head for others to join me. Just stay away from the random song lyrics and useless pop culture trivia corner it's dangerous.

[miles2go]

You did, you just didn't use that specific word.

If I describe a person who sees people different based on their race, I don't have to specifically call them a racist. I already did indirectly.

 

I did not call the show sexist or misogynistic or anything of that nature. I was concerned about a phrase another poster had used.  Apparently, I haven't spoken clearly enough in the past. So let me be clear now:  I do not engage in verbal wrangling, unless there is some fun or wit involved.  I see neither in our current discussion.  

[DittyDotDot]

I've decided that everything that's happened on the show since the season 7 finale is all in Sam's head. When Dean disappeared he lost his stone number one and went nuts. He's been hallucinating this whole time while residing in an institution. Dean and Cas didn't go to Purgatory. Cas transported them away from the backlash but didn't get them back in time to find Sam and let him know because he was communing with bees in some foreign country, Dean obviously had no way to return on his own. I can't wait for season 11 and their joyous reunion! That's my headcannon and I'm sticking to it.

 

That's so funny, I was thinking S8 and on could be Purgatory in general and it's all been some sort of hallucination of Dean's or something. I think I like your version better, though.

[catrox14]

Oh I like this head!Canon.

Oh maybe this could be all a part of trials!

[former vampire]

Not sure how I feel overall about this season finale. I think I'll have to rewatch to decide.

 

What I liked:

⦁ Dean is finally free of the Mark! He wasn't 100% Dean with the MoC, and I hated the way the mark has played out towards the end of this season, so I'm really glad to see it gone.

 
⦁ Jared & Jensen did very well with some emotional scenes.

 
⦁ The interaction between Cas & Crowley was enjoyable to watch. "You weren't in my contacts list."

 

⦁ "A hamster told me."

 
⦁ We got to see Death again. And Dean cooked for him.

 
⦁ We got to learn a little more about Rowena & she finally has some real power. (Scheming, nit-picking mother to the King of Hell was not fun to watch.)

 
⦁ Sam, Dean, Cas, & Crowley are still alive at the end of the episode. (Although, the prospect of any of them living much longer doesn't look very good.)

 

 

What I didn't like:

⦁ The MoC made Dean slut-shame a dead teen girl in front of a cop? I get that this isn't normal, unfiltered Dean behavior. What I really have a problem with is the way its effect on Dean has been shown. Ideally, the audience should have seen the MoC slowly ramp up Dean's actions & emotions over the last several episodes. If one of the effects of the MoC was making Dean cruel & judgmental, we should have gotten a little more of that each time. Instead, last episode Dean slaughtered the entire Louisiana part of the Styne family & beat up Cas. This episode he's yelling at & name-calling anyone even remotely involved in the vampire case he's working on, and getting another hunter killed because he can't slow his roll for even 30 seconds to think up a plan. Because there hasn't been a good effort at showing what the Mark is doing, it looks more like the MoC is giving Dean multiple personalities. Last week we got almost unstoppable killer; this week it was judgmental, name-calling Mean Girl.

 
⦁ Why didn't Sam call off the spell? I like that the spell worked, but like many others here, I don't understand the reason he never contacted Cas to stop it. Was Sam unaware that the MoC was locking away the Darkness, and that removing the MoC would release it? Did Sam know that all the ingredients had been found? What if the spell were cast after Sam was killed & Dean had been sent away by Death? Did Sam think that finding someone that Rowena loved was an impossible task & that the spell would never be cast? Was Sam counting on Dean not killing him? Did Sam care whether or not the Darkness was released? There are so many questions I don't feel were answered here.

 
⦁ Death is dead. Why did Dean kill Death? Like other commenters, I don't understand if that was the real Dean or the MoC that wanted Death gone. Was killing Death part of Dean's plan all along, or was that an in-the-moment action? What effect does this have on humans dying (if any) & the other Reapers?

 
⦁ Why did we only learn about the Darkness & the MoC being a lock last minute? I get that this was so that neither Sam nor Dean really had a chance to do stop it. I feel like the writers could have planned this better, though. I would have preferred if (a few episodes back) they somehow contacted Lucifer to remove the Mark, but he wouldn't cooperate. Instead, he would have made some cryptic remark about the MoC being a lock, but wouldn't give them any details. Then at least, Sam & Dean would have had a vague idea what removing the Mark might do & their choices would have had more meaning.

 
⦁ I also agree with whoever said the Darkness looks too much like the demons being released from the Devil's Gate. New special effects, please!

 
⦁ Would have liked to hear a bit more about Oscar/Seth & Rowena's relationship to him. He was 8 yrs old in Rowena's memory, but how old was she at the time? Did Rowena love him like the brother she never had, the type of son she wished she had, or was Oscar her first real crush? If she had romantic feelings for Oscar, why couldn't she be with him as they grew up? Or maybe they were lovers back then (during his normal lifetime, not at age 8, you sickos!) & Oscar was Crowley's real father? It seems clear that the demon lover hamster!Oliviette talked about was actually immortal Oscar, so Oliviette may have been wrong about the lover part as well. (It wasn't clear to me if Oscar was surprised that Crowley brought him to see Rowena, or if Oscar was surprised that Rowena was alive after all those years.) Anyway, I thought that just a few sentences explaining Rowena's relationship with him & why she chose to kill him would have given her character so much more depth. Maybe we will hear Oscar's story in season 11?

 

 

So, at least we can start next season WITHOUT Sam or Dean in Hell/Purgatory/the Cage and WITHOUT any severe physical injury/mental or emotional injury/curse/soullessness/demon blood addiction. It's just the rest of the world that's in shambles. Hooray?

[Mick Lady]

Rewatching this entire season, it brought to mind something I read once. Ray Bradbury claimed there was a Fifth Horseman, worse than all the rest. He was named Despair, and he was wrapped in the dark shroud of defeat, crying only repetitions of past disasters, present failures and future cowardices. I think that's where our boys are now. I hope they can escape this last Horseman!

 

Oh, and Mick BTW, thinks we're all barking mad!

Edited May 25, 2015 by Mick Lady

[FlickChick]

Hey, Mick Lady, love that bit of info. What if that is what "the darkness" is next season. Because you're right, that's a great definition of our boys, sad to say. And BTW, Mick is right. :)

[lmdreamer]

I have seen this episode three times and have watched the sam and dean scene a couple of times.  I liked the episode but I was more intrigued by "the prisoner" with Crowley reminding us that he could be a rather powerful and threatening anytime he wants to and of course the final two minutes. But in "brothers keeper" I liked the sam/dean scene especially the moment where sam goes, "Thats enough" and "close your eyes sammy"    I was surprised when Dean killed Death and like many of you I wonder how that is going to work next season.  Either he is dead and wont be back or he will be back and pissed.  Or it was a test.  If he didn't see it coming, i think it was because right up to the very last second dean had every intention of killing sam but subconsciously changed his mind while swinging the ax.  In previous episodes Death has shown to be omnipresent and able to read thoughts and/or intentions. Like how in the season 7 opener he knew sam was hallucinating before sam told anyone. I also had the sense that death knew that dean was going to ask him to free sam's soul in "Appointment". 

As far as the darkness goes, is it possible the castiel know nothing about it or the mark being a lock and key because he has been reprogrammed so many times? If death is dead and there is no available knowledge could he ask someone to try to access his programming to find out what he can't remember? That is if he or crowley is still alive in the season premier. *crosses fingers* 

I also liked the scene where cas asked crowley nicely for his help. I wonder what he was thinking when he gave cas that long stare before agreeing to help?

Also I missed the family theme but loved the opener.

Alright carry on.

[mertensia]

You know I'm going to point out (if someone else hasn't done so) that this "keeper of the lock " bit actually reinforces why Lucifer is a whiny self-centered human hater.

He gets to be keeper. Great! This just reinforces How Much Dad Loves Him.

And then Dad becomes interested in humans. How dare dad? Him! Lucifer! Keeper of the Lock! That's who's important! Not these idiot humans! So as the lock begins to work its evil on him he decides to creare demons, the Knights of Hell, white polyester leisure suits, even Vanilla Ice. And the humans deserve all of it.

[Mrs OldManBalls]

And John, Ash, Ellen, Jo, Charlie, Chuck (if not God), Kevin, etc. I'm just sayin'...

 

Don't forget the hot blind chick with the 'Jesse Forever' tattoo. 

 

I agree. In fact when Dean attacked Death, I half expected Death to pull an Azazel and say; "Oh my, I'm shocked at this unforeseen turn of events"

 

Death is far too smart to let Dean get the best of him. Something's up for sure!

 

Here's to hoping you are right! 

[Ria]

 

Death is dead. ... What effect does this have on humans dying (if any) & the other Reapers?

Well, War, Famine and Pestilence are all dead too. And since we have no reason to believe otherwise, there is still war, famine and pestilence in the Supernatural world. So maybe Death being dead doesn't actually end death. I'd say without Death, maybe the Reapers have no list or direction.

[supposebly]

 

Well, War, Famine and Pestilence are all dead too.

As far as I remember, they aren't dead, just their fingers with the rings got cut off (except Famine, I think died from exploding demon smoke disease). So, we don't really know what role the rings played but to me, it's good enough to accept that that didn't mean, war, famine and pestilence were eradicated in the world.

 

 

well I think handing Dean Winchester a scythe that can kill you is nothing but a test.

 

I really admire your optimism since I've lost all of mine over the years, SueB, but testing what?

[DittyDotDot]

Well, War, Famine and Pestilence are all dead too. And since we have no reason to believe otherwise, there is still war, famine and pestilence in the Supernatural world. So maybe Death being dead doesn't actually end death. I'd say without Death, maybe the Reapers have no list or direction.

 

I thought War and Pestilence were still alive, but their rings were just taken away. But considering that Famine appeared to be dead and I imagine there's still hunger in the Supernatural world, I don't expect Death's death to stop folks from dying, but there should be an actual real world consequence for Death no longer existing. Although, I'm not sure what the consequences were for Death not wearing his ring for a whole year either? That's always something that I wonder about when I watch Appointment at Sumatra and Death says the junk food was his last meal before putting the ring back on. Sorry, tangent...

 

Anyway, I got the impression Death and God created a certain balance in this universe, so this can't be a good thing right?

[7kstar]

Balance would be an interesting concept in Spn world...especially with Carver at the helm.  Taking the rest of my thoughts to the spoilers thread.

[SueB]

I really admire your optimism since I've lost all of mine over the years, SueB, but testing what?

Perhaps whether or not he believed in himself enough.  To some extent, agreeing to let Death drop him off in some cosmic no-place was too fatalistic.  In fact the first thing Death said was "Well I never thought I'd see the day, my goodness, Dean Winchester has tipped over his king."  So... it was a test to see if Dean really DID give up.  And...the answer was "apparently not".  Given the emphasis on #AlwaysKeepFighting, I'm thinking maybe that's what Death really WANTED him to do.  To not give up.  Not sure he expect Dean to scythe him... but I'm not sure that Death is really Dead.

[mertensia]

Do we even have confirmation that Death can be killed? Sure Crowley said he could, but that was Crowley saying that.

Plus- and I do wonder- is that physically even Death or just like a hologram he sends?

[DittyDotDot]

I really admire your optimism since I've lost all of mine over the years, SueB, but testing what?

 

I am not SueB nor am I optimistic, but your question got me to thinking. At the end of Swan Song, Chuck says this was a test for Sam and Dean. I wonder if Carver is trying to link back to this in some way? Could've stopping the big angel fight been a test to see if Sam and Dean were ready for the Darkness? I've always had a notion that the angel's version of the apocalypse was not God's actual plan. Maybe God knew there was no way the Darkness would always be contained so he's been preparing Sam and Dean for this all along? Perhaps Death was testing to make sure Sam and Dean were ready to take on the Darkness?

Edited May 26, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[Demented Daisy]

Oh, Ditty, I would love for that to have been the plan all along, but that would require a fair amount of faith on my part in Carver et al.  Yeah, don't think I have that.

[DittyDotDot]

Well, I look at it this way, even if that was Carver's plan all along, I'm pretty sure they'll screw it up in the end.

[supposebly]

 

So... it was a test to see if Dean really DID give up.  And...the answer was "apparently not".

 

Well, it wasn't really a question that that wouldn't happen if he had to kill Sam for no reason at all. That's where the scene fell down flat on its face for me. Even if was a test and I don't even know why Death would want to test Dean, I find it entirely unbelievable that Sam could fly around the universe to find Dean. Especially since the angels can't fly anymore, so the help of Cas in that department is out. And even if he could, that would again, mean, Sam still hasn't learned not to start a new apocalypse.

 

 

Could've stopping the big angel fight been a test to see if Sam and Dean were ready for the Darkness? I've always had a notion that the angel's version of the apocalypse was not God's actual plan. Maybe God knew there was no way the Darkness would always be contained so he's been preparing Sam and Dean for this all along?

 

I like yours a bit better, but by making them start it? The only reason it got started was the Winchesters. Of course, it also means that Sam might have gotten manipulated into starting it as well. Again. Just this time, not by Ruby and Lilith and Lucifer and Azazel, but by God.

 

Maybe it's just me but Death and God have a whole lot more faith in them than I do. And at the same time enough faith to start the apocalypse. If that's supposed to be ironic, I find it rather ridiculous. I still prefer to think of them as human, so I can even remotely start to relate to them. Apparently, the show doesn't if you guys are right.

Edited May 26, 2015 by supposebly

[SueB]

Well, it wasn't really a question that that wouldn't happen if he had to kill Sam for no reason at all. That's where the scene fell down flat on its face for me. Even if was a test and I don't even know why Death would want to test Dean, I find it entirely unbelievable that Sam could fly around the universe to find Dean. Especially since the angels can't fly anymore, so the help of Cas in that department is out. And even if he could, that would again, mean, Sam still hasn't learned not to start a new apocalypse.

 

Try...it was a test of blind obedience.  Because Sam was right "what the hell is THAT".  Full conversation:

 

Death: "Our conundrum is simple, your brother cannot be killed, and the Mark cannot be destroyed, not without inciting a far greater evil than any of us have ever known."

Sam: "What evil."

Dean: "The Darkness."

Sam: "What the hell is that?"

Dean: "What does it sound like, does it sound like a good thing?

..then Death talks about even if he removes Dean from the playing field, Sam won't give up. And later Death kept saying "it's for the greater good". Again, unspecified.  Almost a platitude.  Now maybe THAT was the test -- would they die for the greater good? But... yeesh.. they do that nearly once a week. So... weaksauce test if that was the test.

 

So... the Darkness, the "far greater evil" is given zero explanation.  We have to take Dean's instinct from when he held the book and Death's word for it that removing the Mark is bad.  In fact EVERYONE and their brother has told Sam "don't touch".  No specifics on WHY...just "don't".

 

Now I can certainly see the argument that it's to prove that Sam is too codependent on his brother to let him go. Or he's too arrogant to take anyone's council but his own.  But it's all been REMARKABLY vague.  It IS entirely possible the writer's don't know what to do, just wanted to start another apocalypse for the sake of parallels...

 

BUT

 

Why have Sam ASK that question ('What the hell is THAT?')? Was it to point out that TPTB pulled a new big bad out of their ass at the last second ('cause that's what it seemed like). But the writers had Sam ask the question.  Were they lampshading their own lack of planning?  That's the way Whedon might go... because he has fun like that. Even Kripke.  But Carver strikes me as more arrogant.

 

So... it simply might be that there's no plan (as Singer said at JIBCon...but he's a lying liar who lies...so I don't trust him). Perhaps Sam's questioning was simply for the sake of Sam being the rebellious and Dean being the one who is the obedient son to a father figure (in this case, Death).  I'm just not sure.

So, we'll see what happens.  I just feel like it's WE, the audience, who is being set up.  Now personally, if this is the case I think Carver is taking FAR too big of a gamble.  Killing Charlie did damage.  Having the brother start another freaking apocalypse because Sam couldn't kill Dean...it's going to do damage.  And they aren't strong enough in the ratings on this new night to do this IMO.  So... we'll see.  So many variables, not enough data.

 

But I am convinced that there's at least one other interpretation besides "Sam is just obstinate and dumb" and "Dean is too weak to kill Sam" for the events of the finale. 

 

As for Death maybe lettiing himself get killed....maybe that's the safety net of the test they are undergoing.  So no one actually dies.  Or not.  Death doesn't always seem to fussed, either way.