S10.E22: The Prisoner

[DittyDotDot]

This is what is really upsetting to me.  They had Sam drink demon blood and be lead down the garden path and they had him kill a nurse but it was because he believed he was saving the world.  With Dean, there is no garden path. There is no noble cause.

 

Was it really a garden path with Sam though? Didn't Sam make his decision to kill the nurse mostly because he thought Dean left him a voice mail calling him a monster? Sam wasn't forced to do anything and was wavering right up until that moment he thought things were done between he and Dean. But, Sam was himself and made a conscious choice to kill that nurse for no better reason than his brother hurt his feelings. Dean's not himself right now so I'm not sure I can really say he's making any conscious decisions.

 

Cyrus could have been the avatar for both Dean and Sam really.  He was Sam in school, being bullied a bit, but he was Dean when he was pressed into service of the family by having a blade shoved into his hand and killing his first monster. Of course it's a stupid avatar because John never put a knife in their hands to kill humans to harvest the body parts.  He taught them to hunt to survive monsters and demons.

 

Personally, I saw both Sam and Dean in Cyrus. They both were kids who were indoctrinated into a world of crazy. The Winchesters and the Campbells could've easily been the Stynes with a few different moral leanings. I think that's the point of it all, it's a fine line between monster and human.

Edited May 15, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[bethy]

I think that's the point of it all, it's a fine line between monster and human.

 

My issue with the show as whole right now is that this is the point they've been making for 10 years in one way or another. I get it, Show, I promise. Let's do something new. Maybe have the heroes of the show be heroes? Maybe?

[DittyDotDot]

Oh, I agree--I'm in no way saying I'm happy about it--I'm so tired of this "whose the monster crap" too. I keep waiting for some new twist or something exciting to happen, but sadly it never seems to happen.

 

What is that thing about insanity and doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results?

Edited May 15, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[Hana Chan]

Was it really a garden path with Sam though? Didn't Sam make his decision to kill the nurse mostly because he thought Dean left him a voice mail calling him a monster? Sam wasn't forced to do anything and was wavering right up until that moment he thought things were done between he and Dean. But, Sam was himself and made a conscious choice to kill that nurse for no better reason than his brother hurt his feelings. Dean's not himself right now so I'm not sure I can really say he's making any conscious decisions.

 

 

Sam made the decision to go all in with taking out Lilith (including the demon blood drinking) because he thought that in Dean's eyes he was an irredeemable monster. With Ruby, Castiel and Zachariah pulling his strings every inch of the way to make sure that he did just that. So while Sam did make the choice in the end, it wasn't as if he had any idea that Heaven was in on the "Bring About the Apocalypse" scheme, or that killing Lilith would be the final seal.

 

I don't think that Dean can be completely held responsible for his actions now (as in, he shouldn't be blamed for everything after he's back to his old self), but he did make the conscious choice to take on the MoC with all the warnings about consequences in mind. Dean wasn't manipulated or mislead quite in the same manner that Sam was.

[DittyDotDot]

Dean was also being manipulated by Crowley and IMO his desire to kill Abaddon was just as altruistic as Sam wanting to kill Lilith. Neither Sam or Dean asked the necessary questions before they started down their respective paths. Sam didn't stop and ask Ruby what any consequences would be for drinking demon blood or killing Lilith either. And Dean had no more idea that taking on the Mark would turn him into a demon than Sam had in killing Lilith would set Lucifer free. Personally, I find they both acted recklessly and from emotional places that got them into their respective messes, but I don't find Sam's journey any more or less noble than Dean's.

[catrox14]

 

. Dean wasn't manipulated or mislead quite in the same manner that Sam was.

 

 

This  was pretty much exactly the same as Ruby, just no sex and demon blood drinking. 

 

--Sam wanted revenge. He was told that Lilith was the person he needed to kill. 

--Dean wanted revenge for Kevin but Gadreel was gone. Crowley stepped in and told Dean that Abaddon needed to be killed and he knew how to get it done. 

 

--Ruby lead  Sam to the option of demon blood without explaining the consequences to Sam but that he needed to do it to power up for the kill. Sam could have said no or inquired more directly as to the consequences but he didn't because he was obsessed with it. 

--Crowley lead  Dean to the option of the Mark without explaining the consequences to Dean but that he needed the power of the First Blade to kill Abaddon.  Dean could have said no or inquired more directly as to the consequences.

 

--Sam started the apocalypse inadvertently because Ruby set him up.

--Dean became a demon inadvertently because Crowley set him up

 

I have never bought the argument that the only reason Sam went after Lilith was because Dean didn't believe in him anymore. Sam did it because he wanted vengeance for Dean. Likewise, I never bought the argument that the only reason Dean took on the Mark was because Sam shut him out after the Gadreel possession.  Dean did it because he wanted vengeance for Kevin's death but that was waylaid by Crowley into killing Abaddon.

 

Both were manipulated in much the same way and both didn't read the fine print. They were on a path to destruction.  So far Sam did get attempt to make it right with the noble cause of jumping into pit to stop the Apocalypse .

 

So far Dean has no option for making things right because as far as we know the world isn't ending or an new apocalypse on the way because of something Dean did unless you want to count Crowley sending Dean to Cain and that reignited Cain's bloodlust and his killing spree and Dean killing Cain was good. I don't know yet.

Edited May 15, 2015 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

But does Dean need to stop an apocalypse to make things right? In my mind, Sam made it right because he put Lucifer back in the cage he unwittingly let him out of which stopped an apocalypse he unwittingly started. How is Dean stopping a random apocalypse making up for him unwittingly becoming a demon? Perhaps Dean shutting down Hell or something like that would be a better through line?

 

Anyway, I'm pretty sure Dean will get his chance to throw himself in a poorly CGI'd hole in the ground too--there is supposed to be another season after all.

[Demented Daisy]

But does Dean need to stop an apocalypse to make things right? In my mind, Sam made it right because he put Lucifer back in the cage he unwittingly let him out of which stopped an apocalypse he unwittingly started. How is Dean stopping a random apocalypse making up for him unwittingly becoming a demon? Perhaps Dean shutting down Hell or something like that would be a better through line?

 

So, since he was cured of being a demon, would TPTB tweak the ritual, have him say a few words of Enochian, close the gates of Hell, and die fabulously?  ;-)

[DittyDotDot]

Hee! As long as it's poorly CGI'd, in some fashion, I'd think that would satisfy the parallelism! ;)

[Mulva]

I don't think that Dean can be completely held responsible for his actions now (as in, he shouldn't be blamed for everything after he's back to his old self), but he did make the conscious choice to take on the MoC with all the warnings about consequences in mind. Dean wasn't manipulated or mislead quite in the same manner that Sam was.

Dean wouldn't have needed to kill Abadon if he hadn't stupidly put her back together again, then left her alone.

As for the 'nurse' Sam killed, she was a demon, and everybody from Bobby to Becky ganks demons all the time with no moral qualms. I've never understood why this one is supposed to be different.

Dean took on the Mark Of Cain, which any fool could have told him would turn him demonic, of his own free will.

Dean murdering Cyrus was worse than anything Sam has ever done.

[Aeryn13]

 

How is Dean stopping a random apocalypse making up for him unwittingly becoming a demon?

 

Because saving the world is pretty much the biggest "good deed" one can do. The only thing that trumps it is saving more worlds/the universe in genre shows. I know the numbers game can look cold but if someone kills 100 people but later saves 6 billion, I`d say that`s one hell of an atonement.

 

 

Dean wouldn't have needed to kill Abadon if he hadn't stupidly put her back together again, then left her alone.

 

Sam was right next to him for both so that was very much a joint screw-up.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

But does Dean need to stop an apocalypse to make things right? In my mind, Sam made it right because he put Lucifer back in the cage he unwittingly let him out of which stopped an apocalypse he unwittingly started. How is Dean stopping a random apocalypse making up for him unwittingly becoming a demon? Perhaps Dean shutting down Hell or something like that would be a better through line?

 

Anyway, I'm pretty sure Dean will get his chance to throw himself in a poorly CGI'd hole in the ground too--there is supposed to be another season after all.

 

I'm saying that right now , I see no kind of thing that gives Dean any redemption on the horizon...other than not fulfilling Cain's prophecy.  My point was that Sam made up for his error by putting Lucifer in the cage.  Dean never got to make up for breaking the first seal as the Righteous Man...and no I don't subscribe to that viewpoint that Dean being with Sam is why Sam was able to beat Lucifer, but that's an argument for another day in another thread. 

 

Here Dean has nothing in front of him other than not killing Sam and Cas but he can't make up for killing the human garbage that he's killed. Not that I can see.  Unless killing the human garbage is noble but I'm not seeing it couched that way in the show.  Maybe yes he'll be able to close the Gates of Hell after all but doesn't that screw with the natural order again? Wasn't that part of the argument against closing the Gates?

[Goldmoon]

I thought the nurse was a random kidnapped human Sam drained for her human blood?

[catrox14]

 

As for the 'nurse' Sam killed, she was a demon, and everybody from Bobby to Becky ganks demons all the time with no moral qualms. I've never understood why this one is supposed to be different.

 

 

IIRC,  the nurse had been possessed recently to be Lilith's baby chef.  The demon let the nurse out and the nurse was begging Sam and Ruby to let her go when Sam killed her. He didn't kill her when the demon was out front. Sam could have exorcised the demon at that point but Ruby convinced him that no he needed the blood. I don't think the nurse had yet been rode hard as Ruby 1.0 used to say.  Of course in retrospect Sam never even needed the blood at all so killing the meatsuit was pointless.

Edited May 15, 2015 by catrox14

[Diane]

I thought the nurse was a random kidnapped human Sam drained for her human blood?

No she was a demon.

 

I am sorry I don't believe Dean needs to repent for anything.  He has repeatedly lost everything has been to hell and purgatory. He has given his entire life to save people and he has done that all of his life.  He killed a teenager from a monster family that most likely would have turned into a monster had he been left alive.  They have made that mistake more than once, this time he didn't.  

[Demented Daisy]

I'm saying that right now , I see no kind of thing that gives Dean any redemption on the horizon...  *snip*

 

Here Dean has nothing in front of him other than not killing Sam and Cas but he can't make up for killing the human garbage that he's killed. 

 

Well, there's not much time for a redemption arc, per se.  But willingly sacrificing himself would be a first step.  Possibly, whatever Sam is doing is going to have massive global consequences and Dean helping to fix that mess would also be part of a possible redemption arc.  In S11, of course.

[catrox14]

Well, there's not much time for a redemption arc, per se.  But willingly sacrificing himself would be a first step.  Possibly, whatever Sam is doing is going to have massive global consequences and Dean helping to fix that mess would also be part of a possible redemption arc.  In S11, of course.

 

I don't want Dean to clean up whatever mess Sam makes here. I would like for Dean to have redemption of his own, even though I do see DCM's point that Dean has already done so much good that it should outweigh the bad of right now. But it seems to me that the show is positioning it that it's a horrible, terrible, no good, very bad thing that Dean is doing this so it seems like he needs something more than to die a serial killer. That thought sickens me and that's why I want something good for Dean to come out of this. And if nothing good then something fun like being  King of Hell.

[DittyDotDot]

I am sorry I don't believe Dean needs to repent for anything.  He has repeatedly lost everything has been to hell and purgatory. He has given his entire life to save people and he has done that all of his life.  He killed a teenager from a monster family that most likely would have turned into a monster had he been left alive.  They have made that mistake more than once, this time he didn't.  

 

I don't think Dean needs to repent either. I find focusing on whether the kid deserved to die or not is missing the point. Dean did something that Dean wouldn't normally do. He is not himself right now and it's glaring because Dean would normally not even consider killing a kid, good or bad, IMO. When we start making excuses for why Dean should've killed the kid and why it was just fine that he did, I think it takes away from what's actually happening to Dean and why removing the MoC is necessary.

 

I've been largely trying to stay out of the whole discussion of whether the kid deserved to die or not because I think it's missing the point anyway, but I have to say: does anyone really deserve death simply because he could possibly, maybe, perhaps someday in the future become a monster? The kid hadn't done anything yet, nor made any choices for himself that defined him as "evil", IMO. If he had been a couple years older and still sitting idly by while his family was carving up people, then sure, he owned his own choices. But, he was just a teenager who lacked the power to change the family he was born into. If we go by the logic that the kid deserved to die for no more fault than his birth, then should children of rapists, murderers or child molesters be killed too? Or should we judge them by their own actions rather than the actions of their family?

 

I thought the nurse was a random kidnapped human Sam drained for her human blood?

 

The nurse was possessed by a demon. Sam needed demon blood, not human blood, to drink in order to make himself strong enough to kill Lilith. But, the human was still in there and probably could've been saved if Sam had chosen to exorcise her rather than drain her.

 

I'm saying that right now , I see no kind of thing that gives Dean any redemption on the horizon...other than not fulfilling Cain's prophecy.  My point was that Sam made up for his error by putting Lucifer in the cage.  Dean never got to make up for breaking the first seal as the Righteous Man...and no I don't subscribe to that viewpoint that Dean being with Sam is why Sam was able to beat Lucifer, but that's an argument for another day in another thread. 

 

My point was we have another season and I bet whatever happens next will be setting up for Dean to get his chance too. Did you really see Sam jumping into a poorly CGI'd hole coming a season away? I'm just saying I think we might need a bit of patience on that front.

 

 

Ahh man, did I just do a "trust the plan" argument? I think I need to start some sort of electroshock therapy or something. That's so not like me.

[supposebly]

 

If we go by the logic that the kid deserved to die for no more fault than his birth, then should children of rapists, murderers or child molesters be killed too? Or should we judge them by their own actions rather than the actions of their family?

Isn't that what Cain was doing with the kid of the mass murderer? I think current Dean is just continuing the insane legacy.

[AwesomO4000]

I'm saying that right now , I see no kind of thing that gives Dean any redemption on the horizon...other than not fulfilling Cain's prophecy.  My point was that Sam made up for his error by putting Lucifer in the cage.  Dean never got to make up for breaking the first seal as the Righteous Man...and no I don't subscribe to that viewpoint that Dean being with Sam is why Sam was able to beat Lucifer, but that's an argument for another day in another thread.

 

I can't think of anyone on the show - including Dean and he blames himself for everything - who still blames Dean for breaking the first seal. After the 5th episode of season 5, it was pretty much established that almost everyone (including Dean) pretty much considered Sam's misguided mistake as what got Lucifer out, and if not for that, it wouldn't have happened. After that episode, Dean breaking the first seal was pretty much forgotten and never mentioned again as far as I can recall. It was all "Sam let Lucifer out."

 

As for Dean atoning for that mistake, even if you don't include him as having any role in "Swan Song" (I do, but...) since then Dean has: saved Sam by risking his own life (literally having himself killed) and convincing Death to retrieve Sam's soul from hell, saved the world by killing Eve pretty much single-handedly, gotten Castiel to return the monster souls to purgatory, saved the world again by killing Dick Roman and getting the hero's death for that by ending up in purgatory where he fought through purgatory to get to Castiel and would have saved Castiel if not for Cas' own choice to not be saved. Oh, and then he sent Benny to save Sam (again) from purgatory. I think that was enough to make up for breaking the first seal. In the same time period, Sam pretty much did one thing - take on his hell memories - that in the end made little difference (even if it was noble) and then he didn't close the gates of hell. He did undemonate Dean, but there was bad done along the way to accomplish that, so not so much world-saving heroics, and Dean also killed Abaddon. I think Dean's pretty much gotten to do the hero heavy-lifting since the end of season 5.

 

IIRC,  the nurse had been possessed recently to be Lilith's baby chef.  The demon let the nurse out and the nurse was begging Sam and Ruby to let her go when Sam killed her. He didn't kill her when the demon was out front. Sam could have exorcised the demon at that point but Ruby convinced him that no he needed the blood. I don't think the nurse had yet been rode hard as Ruby 1.0 used to say.  Of course in retrospect Sam never even needed the blood at all so killing the meatsuit was pointless.

 

I disagree here. I think Sam did need the blood, because it was shown a couple of times throughout the season that when Sam was low on blood, he couldn't exorcise demons. Dean even commented on it (paraphrase) "what's wrong with you? Why are your powers fritzing?" And the nurse was a huge diversion that it wouldn't have made any sense for Ruby to take if the blood wasn't needed. Things were already coming down to the wire time-wise, and Sam was all in on the killing Lilith plan already.

 

I have never bought the argument that the only reason Sam went after Lilith was because Dean didn't believe in him anymore. Sam did it because he wanted vengeance for Dean. Likewise, I never bought the argument that the only reason Dean took on the Mark was because Sam shut him out after the Gadreel possession.  Dean did it because he wanted vengeance for Kevin's death but that was waylaid by Crowley into killing Abaddon.

 

I agree. For me, Sam's reaction to the phone call was something different. That last bit of reservation wasn't because of what Dean thought of him in terms of hurting Sam's feelings - Sam knew very well what Dean would think of him when it was over, because he relayed to Ruby that exact thing - but I think he was more concerned how it would hurt Dean (i.e. he wavered, because he worried Dean would be hurt when he turned)  But on hearing the fake phone call, he didn't have to worry about that anymore. If / when he turned into a monster after killing Lilith, Dean would likely kill him if he survived the process, and that was a relief and he could then go on ahead. That's how I took Sam's reaction to the phone call.

 

Well, there's not much time for a redemption arc, per se.  But willingly sacrificing himself would be a first step.  Possibly, whatever Sam is doing is going to have massive global consequences and Dean helping to fix that mess would also be part of a possible redemption arc.  In S11, of course.

 

I certainly hope not. If they make Sam be the screw up here, I am going to be so pissed. Almost all Sam ever gets to do anymore is be wrong, screw up, and/or have to have Dean save him. Sadly if it weren't for "Swan Song" I'd almost wonder if that was the only role Sam gets to have in the show, and it's been getting worse now that Dean has the supernatural power as well (since regular Sam doesn't do much big bad killing like regular Dean did).  As a friend of mine commented after I got him into the show, the goal for Sam starting in season 8 seems to be to turn him into a "wimp" (his word not mine, but I can see his point). I'm tired of wimpy Sam. I want real Sam back.

Edited May 15, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[DittyDotDot]

Isn't that what Cain was doing with the kid of the mass murderer? I think current Dean is just continuing the insane legacy.

 

Which just goes to prove my point even more. Dean argued with Cain that he shouldn't kill that kid for nothing more than the accident of his birth. But now, Dean did as Cain did, showing Dean is not himself right now. And, it's still irrelevant to me whether the kid deserved to die or not.

Edited May 15, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

Which just goes to prove my point even more. Dean argued with Cain that he shouldn't kill that kid for nothing more than the accident of his birth. But now, Dean did as Cain did, showing Dean is not himself right now. And, it's still irrelevant to me whether the kid deserved to die or not.

 

I thought it was Sam that was making that argument.  /goes off to rewatch Executioner's Song because science for reasons...../needs to be accurate....#don'truinmyfunwiththefacts

[supposebly]

 

Dean argued with Cain that he shouldn't kill that kid for nothing more than the accident of his birth. But now, Dean did as Cain did, showing Dean is not himself right now. And, it's still irrelevant to me whether the kid deserved to die or not.

I don't think it matters how we evaluate the morality. Within the show's universe, it's shown to be a bad thing. Cain's actions were shown to be wrong and unless the show applies different moralities to the Winchesters compared to everyone else (which the show has been in danger of for quite a long time), this was not in any way justifiable or justified within the show.

[Aeryn13]

 

But now, Dean did as Cain did, showing Dean is not himself right now. And, it's still irrelevant to me whether the kid deserved to die or not.

 

 

I agree with the Cain parallel and that clearly showing how Dean has lost it right now. However, I do believe if say Cyrus was evil like all the other Stynes or heck, if he had been like Game of Thrones Joffrey (how old was that one? 14?), then Dean killing him would not have shown he was losing it. Because killing all the other Stynes wasn`t above or beyond the call of duty either.

 

I couldn`t believe Eldon even gleefully started the tauntings. He had no weapons, Dean was out of phsyical reach - and had physically bested him before - and Dean was standing there covered in blood, WITH a weapon in hand. And Eldon had just seen Dean kill that other dumby cousin. Bad guys going into smug taunting is nothing new but they usually do so when they are sure they have the upper hand.

 

Like, back in the Styne mansion when they had Dean tied to a table, THERE I could understand the Stynes thinking they had things well under control. But here? Even a rudimentary understanding of the tactical situation would have told Eldon he didn`t comfortably have the upper hand. I can`t agree that he only had one brain, I think he must have had no brain to monologue like that.    

 

 

Within the show's universe, it's shown to be a bad thing. Cain's actions were shown to be wrong

 

I think the parallel was on purpose. Or at least a lucky accident.

 

When first introduced to Cain, he had supposedly successfully conquered the influence of the Mark and led a peaceful live. In Executioner`s Song, he appeared calm and collected and yet his arguments were crazy and show to be wrong. He was shown to have succumbed to the Mark and be a changed man (or changed back) from when we first saw him.

 

Now Dean is applying the same logic, even in a calm and collected way (somewhat) and it is equally to show that the Mark has screwed him up. Just like Cain. Back in episode 14, Dean was the counterweight to Cain, questioning his arguments, now he has moved into the Cain position himself.   

Edited May 15, 2015 by Aeryn13

[AwesomO4000]

I can`t agree that he only had one brain, I think he must have had no brain to monologue like that.

 

Brain damage from too much anesthesia and "enhancements."

[Omegamom]

Even a rudimentary understanding of the tactical situation would have told Eldon he didn`t comfortably have the upper hand. I can`t agree that he only had one brain, I think he must have had no brain to monologue like that.

Yeah, well, Eldon was an arrogant Styne screw up anyway. Daddy was about to make him a lab rat--twice. Getting caught killing eyeball girl and leaving her body behind. Killing Charlie and leaving *her* body behind, *and* losing half his arm, to boot. But daddy just couldn't do it. I suppose it was going to be a three strikes you're out situation.

[Fables]

I'm new to the board and just wanted to add my two cents in regarding this episode.  I thought it was very intense.  I truly hated that they killed off Charlie, but they might bring back next season(as ghost probably).    I could feel the hostility Dean had with Sam, as I knew he was going to blame him for Charlie's death.  His cruel comment that it should have been Sam was him lashing out at anger as when push comes to shove Dean would normally always chose Sam over anyone else. But Charlie's death deeply hurt Dean as she was the "little sister he never had" and although Charlie was close to both of them, I always saw the special bond between her and Dean.  As for Dean killing off the Stynes, I'm mixed about this because I actually  liked them as an evil villains and was hoping they would return next season for Dean and Sam do battle with.  The scene that bothered me the most was killing off of Cyrus the teenager of the family for numerous reasons.  First, he was just a boy trapped with an evil family he didn't really want any part of.  During the scene he was forced to butcher that bully by his father actually made him sympathic as he was truly scarred for what he was made to do.   He was actually rather interesting character, especially the way he read that bully his interests in the books, I agree with others who pointed out he was similar to Sam.  I really wanted him to survive and return for the next season.  He could have been a useful to the Winchesters. I definitely did not believe he deserved to die for being forced to go along with is family's deeds especially with them being wiped out he was free of them and could do what he wanted which was to runaway to California( also similar to Sam).  I've read in other posts some defending Dean's actions to the speculation that Cyrus would become evil someday, take revenge, etc but as someone else on the board pointed out earlier that they are missing the point to that scene.  The fact remains, Dean basically played judge, jury and executioner on an innocent  boys' life, simply for being in an evil family blinded buy his rage for revenge and the Mark of Cain's influence.  His actions mirrored that of Cain's who tried to kill a little boy for similar reasons being the bloodline and all the "bad blood"  will win out and make you bad someday logic. Dean basically succeeded in doing what they stopped Cain from doing.  Whether the boy turned out bad in the future is only up to debate, the point is Dean did not kill a monster as he claimed, he just became by murdering a kid for something that wasn't his fault and he killed a human being, not a supernatural creature which is also something normal Dean wouldn't do.  Then he turned on Castiel with that brutal beat down and nearly killed him also something normal Dean wouldn't do.  He is truly corrupted by the Mark of Cain.  Even if they do cure him in the finale, I wonder how he will deal with all the terrible things he's done for the next season.  I don't want the show just glance over his actions during season 11, but Dean deal with his past actions(especially murdering an teenage boy and nearly killing Castiel) and find a way of redemption and penance.  I personally am over Dark Dean and truly want back the old Dean from the earlier seasons back.  I also want some of the old Castiel back while retaining some of the humanity he has.  I'm also glad Crowley survived, even though he's a demon and the King of Hell he's very entertaining.  Just my take.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Fables

[dr pepper]

So they let us know the Steins were descendants of Frankenstein, and then proceed to kill off the entire family the following episode.  That makes the kind of sense that doesn't.

 

 

Oh, you know they'll be more. Lesser branches of the family, each headed by a patriarch who's just itching to be recognized as The Frankenstein.

[Julia]

Personally, I'm not sure that redemption *is* possible, for anyone. Once something's done, it's done.

I'm kind of astonished by how many rigid determinists there are posting here. The concept of redemption kind of requires us not to be defined by the worst things we've done if we go on to do better, and allows for mitigation. It genuinely never occurred to me that was a controversial idea.

Edited May 16, 2015 by Julia

[catrox14]

So, am I the only one who thought when they showed Dean's face on that upside down angle, with his eyes closed, that they would open and be black?  I was really hoping for that.

 

And seriously, Jensen. No one should look that good with that upside down camera angle.

 

Also, right after Dean shot Cyrus...and his eyes were so....blank...how bout that amazing eye shift from Jensen. He was just so annoyed when Cas showed up and he was .....I don't know....not Dean and then had to be Dean with Cas. 

 

Just give Jensen a fucking Emmy award already.

Edited May 16, 2015 by catrox14

[bmoore4026]

I don't like this show anymore.  It used to be fun.  But now it's made a hard turn into Darkness Induced Audience Apathy Land.

 

Should have ended this series at season seven.  That's all.  Should have ended it at seven with Dean, Sam, Castiel, and Bobby walking off into the sunset to have happy lives.

 

I'll watch the finale.  But I want my heroes back.  Not these sociopaths.

[Ria]

I want my heroes back.  Not these sociopaths.

 

My feelings exactly.

[Mulva]

The nurse was possessed by a demon. Sam needed demon blood, not human blood, to drink in order to make himself strong enough to kill Lilith. But, the human was still in there and probably could've been saved if Sam had chosen to exorcise her rather than drain her.

 

They could exorcise a lot of possessed people but gank them anyway, and that hasn't been considered an issue since S3.

[AwesomO4000]

They could exorcise a lot of possessed people but gank them anyway, and that hasn't been considered an issue since S3.

 

It might be an excuse sometimes, but there were times when they couldn't just exorcise the demon, not just due to time, but the safety of their plan depended on a demon not being able to go go back to hell and give their location. (It was even commented on a few times). This was especially a problem after they learned of the difference in time between up top and hell, meaning a demon with information could pass it along to someone in hell and them and other demons break out with not much time passing up top before they get back.

[rue721]

I'm kind of astonished by how many rigid determinists there are posting here. The concept of redemption kind of requires us not to be defined by the worst things we've done if we go on to do better, and allows for mitigation. It genuinely never occurred to me that was a controversial idea.

 

It's not determinism to be dubious about redemption as a concept. If anything, it's nihilism.

 

I personally don't think that you can really "make up" for the past. What's done is done. If you've hurt someone, you can't unhurt them. I think the best you can do is to just keep from piling up more harm -- and the vast majority of people don't even do that. So I don't really believe in redemption as a concept in the real world.

 

To be perfectly frank, I think that redemption is a way for people to reassure themselves that they're not "bad" or that they're "forgiven" even though they know they've done harm and feel guilt for it. I mean, pretty much everyone over the age of eighteen months knows that they've done harm and feels guilt over it, but I think there are the people who decide they can't take that feeling or shouldn't have to feel it -- and imo they're the ones who "seek redemption." And I guess the more confident or desperate among them eventually come to believe they've found it. That's not worthless, if it makes them feel better or inspires them, but it's not necessary meaningful, either. YMMV, I know that people who have a religious connection to the concept of redemption or redemptive suffering are likely to feel differently.

 

Anyway, in terms of what might happen on the show...I think they'll probably have Dean stop acting so bad/cruel at some point, and eventually start acting good again. And I guess that'll be his "redemption" arc? I just wish he would stop being so horrible so I could root for him again, or empathize/sympathize with him again, or even really care about him as a character again.

 

But taking into account what Carl has been through in his young life (including having to shoot his own mother so she wouldn't become a zombie and killing actual zombies himself on a regular basis), and what he's seen (people he loved dying because they trusted the wrong people), and that he now has a baby sister that he is partially responsible for protecting (when they travel on the road, Carl is often the one to carry his baby sister and so is often in charge of her safety), his rather cold decision to shoot the kid because the kid maybe might betray and kill someone in their group later is perhaps a little more understandable. So that's what I meant by experiences shaping people's logic.

 

But everyone's logic is shaped by his own experiences. Isn't that more or less all anyone has to go on, what they've learned over the course of their life about how the world/people work?

 

I get Carl's logic in that example, and I generally get people's logic when they tell themselves that they have a duty to do [whatever bad thing]. I've used that logic irl, too. Not to kill somebody, thank god. But to force myself to do things that went against my conscious or just that I found degrading but that I *needed* to do anyway. I still feel terrible over things that I've done out of necessity, but if given a second chance, I would still do them, because they really were necessary. Idk, it's a moral gray area I guess. Whether a specific act edges out of that grey into white or into black, is always going to be up for debate. (Internal debate, too! I assume that blowing away this other kid affected Carl, even if he knows he would make the same decision if put in that position again).

 

Personally, I see Dean murdering that kid in this past episode as edging pretty deep into black. I get why he did it, but I also think it was wrong.

 

And while I think that it's important that Dean wouldn't have murdered the kid if he were himself, and not under the thrall of the Mark, I do think it's also relevant whether the act was actually an immoral -- not just an uncharacteristic -- thing to do. Being cruel to Sam and saying he wished that Sam were the one who died was uncharacteristic and shitty. But murdering a human being more-or-less in cold blood isn't just uncharacteristic and shitty, it might also be (imo, it is) straight up WRONG. This isn't just about Dean no longer being himself, it's also about figuring out exactly what he's turning into. Dean is clearly no longer his old self, and what he's turning into is apparently something that can murder a kid without blinking, "just in case" the kid will turn bad one day.

 

Also, along with what everyone is saying about seeing Dean and/or Sam in the teenager:  when Dean was hustling the college boys in that bar, he also was uncharacteristically cold/hardened imo, and although he wasn't doing anything especially bad, he also didn't seem like his old self imo. And after hustling them, he saw himself with black eyes. I think that the show is reinforcing that EXACTLY who Dean would usually have empathized with and identified with (or identified Sam with) in the past -- boys, basically. College boys, teenage boys, etc -- are people he now doesn't empathize or identify with at all. Way back in the day, weren't there some demons who posed as a young pair of brothers because they knew that Dean and Sam would be very softhearted toward a couple kids like that? And it worked. Nowadays, that ruse obviously wouldn't work. Because Dean's lost too much of his humanity to see himself or his loved ones in other people anymore (or to empathize/identify with other people anymore), I guess.

Edited May 16, 2015 by rue721

[SueB]

Dipping my toe into a bit of philosophy here:

- Dean's altered state means to me that while his actions were morally wrong -- what he is REQUIRED to do at this point (IMO) is to to eliminate himself as a threat to humanity.  Now I don't mean suicide.  Besides the fact that he'd just turn into a demon (and be a BIGGER threat), that's just not the answer IMO. To me, the answer is to find a way to get into Purgatory where he can "do no harm" (because I'm presuming a 'dead' soul in Purgatory just reanimates elsewhere). If he can't make it to Purgatory, he needs to go get a beekeepers set-up and get the hell away from people.  I think Dean is self-aware enough to KNOW he needs to isolate himself at this point. 

- I think Dean killing off all the Stynes was 1) in character, 2) justified, and 3) consistent with his job as a hunter.  To me the Stynes with what was undoubtedly black-magic influenced bio-engineered body part recycling are classifiable as "monsters".  That they used the Book of the Damned as a power source for years and the complete lack of scar tissue on Eldon at the arm says to me they are supernaturally amp'd up.  Now Nerdy!Stein was not. And that's what makes his death wrong.  So while I'm giving Dean a bit of a pass from an 'altered mind state' perspective, Cas is right -- Dean knows it was wrong.  So THAT's what makes Nerdy!Steins death an issue.

- Dean's real need for redemption (presuming he tries to isolate himself rather than just going into Liam Neeson kill mode) to me is for:

-- Lack of hope -- he's slipped into fatalism.  Not that he hasn't earned it, but that's just not the right answer. He needs a realistic plan to either remove the Mark (and I don't think the Book of the Damned is it) or keep himself in check.  He was okay IMO until Nerdy!Stein and the Cas beat-down.  Now it's time to take action. Otherwise his fatalism -- his belief that he is doomed to kill people due to the Mark -- becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.  I'm not saying he has to be unrealistically hopeful. I'm saying he's got to stop believing he deserves to be damned.  He's a good man. If this was someone else, what advice would Dean give to that person?  This is how I want him to start thinking.

-- Choosing to take on the Mark in the first place.  Again, a decision born out of despair (always a bad state of mind for Dean). He himself seems to have already come to this realization.  And to some extent, his rejection of the Book of the Damned IS redemption IMO.  He's not going to try to use an uber-dark supernatural force to remove his uber-dark Mark.  Good call Dean.  To me, that's a redemptive move. 

 

Hope this makes sense.

Edited May 16, 2015 by SueB

[catrox14]

 

I just wish he would stop being so horrible so I could root for him again, or empathize/sympathize with him again, or even really care about him as a character again.

 

Since you don't believe in redemption what could Dean do that would make you like him or root for the character?  I guess I'm rooting for him to fight his way out of his situation without taking everyone he loves/loved down with him.

[AwesomO4000]

(Internal debate, too! I assume that blowing away this other kid affected Carl, even if he knows he would make the same decision if put in that position again).

 

I could talk a long time about Carl... and would be willing in the Supernatural Smackdown thread if you wish, but for now...

 

The short answer is: yes and no. Carl started out very much a normal kid with usual guilt and emotions, but watching the death of most of his friends (with a bunch of guilt involved in some) months on the road in the zombie apocalypse and watching his mother die, delivering his sister, and having to shoot his mother before she became a zombie messed him up as did their living situation and his Dad not being very hands on at the time. So at the time he killed the teen, he was very much full of teenaged "I know I did the right thing"-ness. He progressed beyond that somewhat with a slide back or two due to more awful experiences. Now at 14-15ish Carl is described in The Walking Dead Wiki as such:

In the fifth season, Carl has become a much more emotionally stable individual. Taking on an adult role in the group, Carl helps in the fortification and defense of the church, as well as protecting baby Judith. He seems to have cooled down a bit in terms of mental stability, able to laugh and smile, but still very much capable of cold blooded murder. This makes him a very dangerous person as he is able to do what is necessary to survive but is still in control of his mental and emotional state. He also seems to have grown much more optimistic in his time after the prison. *

* The prison was their home - they lost it to bad guys.

 

It's also somewhat disconcerting sometimes because the actor is not playing younger: he is 15 and looks it (he looks to me like a cross between a young Sam and a young Castiel), so there is no doubt that this is a kid who very much had to grow up way too early. And as I said, since I love Carl anyway, Dean is easy to forgive. Remember, no mark of Cain effect with Carl either, so compared to Carl Grimes, Dean Winchester is completely redeemable.

 

And as an aside, you think Dean's teen years were emotionally crappy, you should've seen Carl's years from 12 - 15ish (character history / personality summary here). I think Chandler Riggs does a great job of playing him also (especially for a teen actor). The episode where Carl finally realizes how much he needs his Dad is affecting, in my opinion.

Edited May 16, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

I don't like this show anymore.  It used to be fun.  But now it's made a hard turn into Darkness Induced Audience Apathy Land.

 

Should have ended this series at season seven.  That's all.  Should have ended it at seven with Dean, Sam, Castiel, and Bobby walking off into the sunset to have happy lives.

 

I'll watch the finale.  But I want my heroes back.  Not these sociopaths.

 

Did you find them sociopaths in s4 and s5?

[bmoore4026]

Did you find them sociopaths in s4 and s5?

 

No, I just figured them to be anti-heroes.

[mertensia]

Dean murdering Cyrus was worse than anything Sam has ever done.

You can only say that because you saw Cyrus. Dean saw a member of the Styne family. Sure Cyrus was as nebbishy as he looked but for all Dean knew he was a male unaged witch who was the head of the Styne family.

Plus realistically how many bad guys throughout not only this show but other shows and TV try to stay safe by playing Mr (or Ms) Helpless?

I really did think they'd had Dean kill Cas. I wonder what stopped him.

Oh - and Stynes?- should've gone with the written apology and fruit basket approach.

[Aeryn13]

I don`t think they even approached anti-hero territory. Heroes going through dark arcs, especially under the influence is different for me. It`s like when the cast of Firefly was billed as antiheroes once upon a time just because their profession was: smugglers and criminals. Like ahahaha, if, when push comes to shove you help the little orphan with the dirt-smeared cheek EVERY TIME like a big chump, you are not an anti-hero. Sit at the goody two-shoes-table where you belong.

 

This concept was even lampshaded a couple eps back IMO when Rowena gloated to Dean that he wouldn`t kill her because she was the only one who could release those people in the bar from the spell. Since Dean hadn`t lost it then, she was exactly right. Now he is like Clark Kent on Red K, the Charmed sisters under various evil spells, the Seeker in Legend of the Seeker under the influence of that magical box etc. Every show genre ever invented that I can think does this trope. Sometimes for an episode or two, sometimes for a longer arc.

 

When Dean didn`t kill Cas here that IMO sealed the deal as "he can be brought back". Because that is usually a part of this trope. The person under the influence will do dark shit, including things they wouldn`t normally do but will still balk at certain acts.

 

I`ve not made a secret of my beef with the SPN writers but even they can do clear-cut trope writing.

 

As for redemption, for me it`s a fundamental concept, both in fiction as well as in real life (though admittedly, it is usually easier and more elegant to pull off in fiction) and the absence of it would be ahorrent to me. It`s not necessarily a religiously based-belief but a deep-held one nevertheless. That`s why I also don`t agree that it`s just some act of denial by people who are too pathetic to acknowledge their crap. 

 

 

I just wish he would stop being so horrible so I could root for him again, or empathize/sympathize with him again, or even really care about him as a character again.

 

But you said a couple of times that you haven`t like him for years, maybe not ever? So what would the conclusion of the dark arc right now change really? Personally, I don`t want him to be like Sam or something because I happen to like Dean as is and I don`t want my favourite character to fundamentally change. Especially into a character that bugs me oftentimes.

[SueB]

In bitterness thread there was a discussion of Cyrus' age (that's Nerdy!Stein's name...).  My response:

 

Actually, I'm pretty sure he was in college. High schools don't usually have multiple buildings and he was leaving 'Styne Hall'. I think we assume high school because he was getting a ride and bullying behavior is so high school. But then he was also asked by the internet friend when he was coming to California. That's not really high school level chit chat.

 

So, confusing. But I'd say he was old enough to know exactly what was going on. And he was new enough to the actual brutal stuff to possibly run away and make a different life. So, IMO he wasn't a complete innocent but he hadn't taken in any body parts yet and wanted out. So, I think killing him was wrong. Expedient and tidy from a storytelling perspective. But still wrong.

 

A couple of other thoughts on the episode regarding the Stynes and their influence in Shreveport Louisiana. 

- There was upthread commentary about isn't Dean back up on the most wanted list.  I'd say 'not likely'. Those guys were on the Styne payroll.  Now all the Stynes are dead.  The LAST thing the Sheriff (who likely had the power to hide shit) would want is any evidence whatsoever of a random dude they had under their control later going off and murdering a prominent family.  So if Dean didn't clean up any evidence of his rampage in the police station, I'd bet the Sheriff did.

- At the house...well the question you have to ask yourself is who is left to tell the tale?  There's 3 in the basement and over a dozen upstairs.  Some on the lawn.  I'd bet the guys outside were brought in and evidence cleaned up by the Stynes themselves while they had Dean tied up in the basement.  No good for the neighbors to see dead bodies on the lawn.  Inside the house: well let's assume that after hearing that the bunker was in danger, Dean just got his slaughter on and left.  No cleanup.  I doubt Cas cleaned him out of the crime scene.  It's sort of a given on Supernatural that they seem to leave their 'dead' fingerprints every.  But I'm not sure that Dean's would have stood out with all the other prints in the house. PLUS...it had to be the Sheriff who found the bodies.  Again, I'm going to say 'no way' does he leave the crime scene "as is".  There's a shit ton of evidence that the Stynes were Frankensteins.  So...either the Sheriff had an "in case of emergency" number to call  (not likely, the Stynes were arrogant), or he's cleaning up the mess himself.  Perhaps disposing most of the carnage and evidence and then setting the whole house on fire.  As Sheriff he can probably prevent investigation.  

 

Bottom line:  I don't think the events in Shreveport put Dean on anyone's radar.  The Sheriff likely covered it all up to protect his ass.  And I bet Dean got a chuckle out of leaving that mess behind FOR him to do that.  JMO.   

[Julia]

It's not determinism to be dubious about redemption as a concept. If anything, it's nihilism.

I personally don't think that you can really "make up" for the past. What's done is done. If you've hurt someone, you can't unhurt them. I think the best you can do is to just keep from piling up more harm -- and the vast majority of people don't even do that. So I don't really believe in redemption as a concept in the real world.

To be perfectly frank, I think that redemption is a way for people to reassure themselves that they're not "bad" or that they're "forgiven" even though they know they've done harm and feel guilt for it.

Honestly, my first reaction to that is to wonder which of us are damned and which are perfect, because that seems to be what the options are. Except, none of us are perfect, so we're all damned, and there's nothing we can do about it, and no reason to try. That seems a bit more nihilistic to me than the lines the show runs on.

Edited May 16, 2015 by Julia

[DittyDotDot]

Actually, I'm pretty sure he was in college. High schools don't usually have multiple buildings and he was leaving 'Styne Hall'. I think we assume high school because he was getting a ride and bullying behavior is so high school. But then he was also asked by the internet friend when he was coming to California. That's not really high school level chit chat.

 

Oh, I just posted in the bitterness thread as well...short answer: I think it was a private high school with the Stynes being large benefactors. The California talk sounded more like the kid was planning to run away to me, but just hadn't worked out how to make it actually happen. Seemed like he had people watching him all the time. Maybe he'd tried to run away before?

[SueB]

Possible. Maybe we'll get an answer from a convention.

[Julia]

Oh, I just posted in the bitterness thread as well...short answer: I think it was a private high school with the Stynes being large benefactors. The California talk sounded more like the kid was planning to run away to me, but just hadn't worked out how to make it actually happen. Seemed like he had people watching him all the time. Maybe he'd tried to run away before?

I assumed he was applying to colleges out west to get away from his family.

[Aeryn13]

After what I just read from Bob Singer`s panel, I wouldn`t bank on any answers for anything. He actually admitted they have no plan whatsoever and make shit up as they go along.  Especially cliffhnagers, it`s written and then afterwards they go "oh my, what now?". Jesus Christ.

[catrox14]

Which seems in direct conflict with Carver saying he's got a plan. /scratches head

 

Sometimes I don't know how to take Singer's comments. He seems super sarcastic to me.

[DittyDotDot]

After what I just read from Bob Singer`s panel, I wouldn`t bank on any answers for anything. He actually admitted they have no plan whatsoever and make shit up as they go along.  Especially cliffhnagers, it`s written and then afterwards they go "oh my, what now?". Jesus Christ.

 

Taken to TPTB thread...