S01.E15: Wentworth Prison

[Athena]

A visit from Black Jack causes Jamie to realize a fate exists that is worse than his death sentence.

Since the show is available On Demand, you may begin discussing the show once it is available on the episode date.

[ElsieH]

Just watched, anyone else? My only comment is it wasn't as bad as I was expecting. And I still haven't figured out what hasn't been done on TV before. I guess they are saving the worst of it for the finale. But so glad they cut the wolves.

[GHScorpiosRule]

OH.MY.GOD.

My heart was racing throughout the whole episode. Sam Hueghan deserves a FUCKING EMMY. Just give it to him.

Thank goodness the whole wolf scene was left out.

I'm a blubbering mess after Jaime told Claire that he loved her.

I'm so incoherent, I know I'm not making any sense.

They did deviate from the book in the opening with the hangings, but I'm okay with that.

I loved how it looked like Jamie was giving in, and I even chuckled when he told Black Jack he could look at his back "if it'll stop yer talkin'" and then attacked.

I I won't lie. I watched the smashing of Jamie's hand through my fingers and my hand was over my mouth during the whole episode.

I loved Claire cursing Black Jack with the date of his death.

And we have the kine! We're definitely getting the cow stampede in the finale.

And I'm not sure why my closed captioning didn't work for this episode. As for Inside the episode? It should totally have been Tobias and Sam talking about it.

As difficult as this was to watch, it wasn't a bad as I thought it would be. That's next week for the finale.

Did I mention we ended wi' the cows?

[Hybiscus]

Agree, it wasn't that bad. Tense & emotional, and a bit graphic, but it won't give anyone nightmares. It ended at MacRannoch's with Murtaugh coming up up with the idea of the kine. That's leaving an awful lot of ground to cover in 2 weeks. So I think we'll be getting The Scenes in "real time" rather than flashback.

[ElsieH]

The only gripe I have, and I had it in the books too, was Claire having the pearls so ready to use as a bargaining chip when they hadn't been seen or heard of since he gave them to her. And also, I guess every man was in love with Ellen just like every man and woman is in love with Jamie. But I still liked it and now we have to wait two weeks to see the rest of it. Boo.

[bluebonnet]

Gah, Jamie's face when we left him.  That's when the tears finally showed up in my eyes. His face might haunt me for the rest of the day, if I rewatch, that's where I'll be looking through my fingers.  

 

I'm glad they cut the wolves because that was always fairly dumb, but I did like that they had them howling in the background as a nod to the books.  I'm a little annoyed with all the hype and warnings over the past week because it just seems even more condescending.  I do wonder if there was some extra editing that went on after it had been sent out to the press because there certainly wasn't anything that was 'groundbreaking' or 'never seen on tv before'.  I wonder if the finale will have extra time because there is a lot to fit in.  I kept itching for the cows to hurry and show up because I wanted to leave with that plan at least already begun and kept looking at the time until I finally gave up, knowing I'd have to wait two weeks more (two weeks?!  why?!?).  

 

Hugs all around.  I'm still feeling haunted by Sam's face.

Edited May 16, 2015 by bluebonnet

[GHScorpiosRule]

Word, bluebonnet.

Sam's face will be in my head all day as well. I think it's why I haven't gone to bed yet. His eyes conveyed so much. And it was jarring to see how short his hair was when they flashed back to his first flogging.

[sara217]

I started getting teary right from the start, since I liked McQuarry and hoped he would help with the escape somehow.

So glad the wolf bit was cut, that section slowed down the action in the book unneccesarily.

I'm not an authority since I mostly avoid really violent tv shows, but maybe the depiction of more psychological torture, not just physical, is what is new? I spent most of the episode hugging a pillow, but the last scene in the dungeon where Randall says something like 'let's begin,' after everything that came before. I think for those who haven't read the books that must be the scariest line. All the acting was so perfect throughout.

[Kristi27]

Wasn't it Jamie's right hand in the books?  Don't know why that detail hit me.  All in all, this episode was a little overhyped for me, but I imagine next week will be rough.  I guess it will be like in the books where he flashes back as he tells Claire what happened.

 

Sam and Cait (and Tobias) were awesome.

[Glaze Crazy]

Very well done.  Just enough intensity to really feel the pending horror of Jamie being left in that dungeon beyond the violence that was actually shown.  I think the show runners trimmed just enough chaff to make it a good hour.  Kudos to all the actors, well done.  RIP MacQuarrie, I was hoping you'd make it.

 

Is the show skipping next weekend?  I just see comments about "the next two weeks" and I know there's only one more episode.

 

ETA for Kristi27: Yes, book Jamie, who is left-handed, has his right hand smashed because Randall assumes he is naturally right-hand-dominant and intends to cripple his ability to ever hold a weapon.  Knowing that small detail makes the smashing of his left hand here kind of useless, in a sense, but definitely adds to the horror-pain aspect.

Edited May 16, 2015 by Glaze Crazy

[justmehere]

I'm kind of speechless, but a couple of things:

 

Of course, such fabulous performances, all around. Incredible.

 

That hammer was so heavy - and he smashed so many times. I dread seeing even the makeup of it all swollen up.

 

I wondered why Jamie didn't crush Randall's balls when Randall forced his (Jamie's) hand into his (Randall's) crotch.

 

The warnings have been weird. Kristin dos Santos talked about both this and the upcoming episode, which makes sense, but others seemed to talk just about this one. If they think this needed a warning... people are really going to be shocked by the finale. They did a good job setting up dread for what's to come, if that was only the introduction. Oh, poor Jamie... the terror on his face.

 

I'm glad they had the shaggy Highland cattle; any other type wouldn't have been right.

 

Memorial Day is ill timed, making us wait an extra week for the finale.

[Petunia846]

Jamie said "dinna fash" for what was either the first time or the first time in a long while. That's my happy place, and I'm sticking with it.

 

I honestly didn't think that was as bad as it could have been or as bad as everyone's been making it out to be. Guess there'll be more in the next episode. It was uncomfortable, certainly, but it didn't make me cry or anything. Actually the most emotional part for me, I think was Claire's little mini break down in Fletcher's office when he stepped out of the room to get the box. The way she just collapsed for a moment then pulled herself back up. That was fantastic.

 

I didn't really care for the opening with the hangings. It seemed overly drawn out and melodramatic. I'd have rather seen Jamie sitting in a big cell with a bunch of whimpering men or something. I don't know. I mean, we all knew he wasn't going to get killed there, so what was the point of it? It was a dramatic end for the guy from the watch, and a little character insight for Jamie, but still. Other than that, there were no wasted minutes this episode.

[GHScorpiosRule]

The show smashed Jamie's left hand because Sam is right-handed. Book Jamie is left-handed.

On the show, I believe Jamie is right-handed, so his less dominant hand, left, is mangled.

[Pestilentia]

 

....knowing I'd have to wait two weeks more (two weeks?!  why?!?).

What the actual fuck?

Two weeks??

This has ruined my entire weekend.

Maybe I'll go reread or something to fill the void...

 

I could be remembering wrong but I thought Jamie's suffering at the hands and body of Randall went on far longer that what we are seeing here. Granted, it's been a long while since I read it but I remember days if not weeks of rape and humiliation- seems like a day or two (or until they get the cows briefed on their role) seems like a piece of cake compared to what my memory tells me Jamie endured.

He was broken. Completely and totally, and personally I don't think a day or two, no matter how horrific, could do that to a man like him.

 

Very happy with everything else- performances of our entire cast were stellar IMO.

 

And I still love Murtagh and his eyebrows best of all.

I weep when I think of Culloden, and 99% of that is for him.

 

And good on Claire for cursing Randall with her knowledge- that got to him. I hope it torments him well and proper for the rest of his days.

[GenieinTX]

I agree with all the warnings falling flat.  I was expecting to see more with all of the warnings.  Not to say this wasn't tense and sickening.  I was watching through my hands every time Jack was on screen.  Jack is so disgusting and he is scary by just saying "Let's begin".  Loved the goodbye between Claire and Jamie and it's heartbreaking that Claire knows he's doing it for her safe release.  Also happy they left out the wolves. 

[Starla]

OMG! A few things that stood out:

 

An interesting change from the book that BJR saved Jamie from hanging. BJR is now his worst nightmare and the person who saved his life.

 

Murtagh carrying Claire after she lost it outside the prison was so sweet.

 

BJR mentioning Brutus falling on his sword... weeeee! Wonderful shoutout to Rome, one of my all time favorite shows.

 

BJR licking Jamie's back... ugh, creepy.

 

Yay for cows and no wolves! The distant howls were plenty.

 

Pestilentia, it was only a day in the book.... he was due to hang the next morning after Claire found him, and I believe the cows came some time in the night/early  morning of his hanging.

[AheadofStraight]

 

Is the show skipping next weekend?  I just see comments about "the next two weeks" and I know there's only one more episode.

 

Damn Memorial Day weekend getting in our way! ;)

 

So glad they left the wolf scene out. I found it tedious and ridiculous in the book and would've been a waste of precious time.

 

I thought this was really well done. I was on the edge of my seat just watching on my laptop. Can't imagine what it will be like later on the big screen.

 

The tear!!! Sam is so flipping good. They all are. BJR is such a sick fuck! Well done, Tobias. Cait and Duncan are fabulous too.

 

I just said the same on twitter about the overhyped warnings for this episode. Yeah it was awful but can't say it was like nothing ever seen before. Hmmm.

 

They are really going to have to zip through things next episode though. No prolonged stay at the Abbey? Any chance the last episode is 2 hours?

 

So many thoughts swirling and I'm incoherent. Need to let the show marinate more.

[WatchrTina]

 

I wondered why Jamie didn't crush Randall's balls when Randall forced his (Jamie's) hand into his (Randall's) crotch.

He already swooning from the pain -- at the slightest hint of "crushing" BJR would bring that mallet down on Jamie's mangled hand again. 

ETA:  I deleted a wrong bit -- misremembered when that happened.

 

 

Granted, it's been a long while since I read it but I remember days if not weeks of rape and humiliation- seems like a day or two (or until they get the cows briefed on their role) seems like a piece of cake compared to what my memory tells me Jamie endured.

In the book you get the impression that Black Jack has been toying with Jamie briefly when Claire finds Jamie (his hand is ruined when she finds him) but he only gets one night to torture Jamie in the book.  That being said, the torture is inventive, unending, and psychologically brutal, alternating pain with pleasure and forcing Jamie to experience the humiliation of his body responding even as his mind is rebelling from the experience.  When I listened to the audio book a few weeks ago the description of the torture seemed to go on and on and on.  In those circumstances -- knowing that the "best" outcome is to hang sooner rather than later and unable to fight back because he's promised to submit (and later after the beatings and burnings and lashings because he's physically unable to fight back) -- well I think it's entirely credible that the experience would break him, even in one night.  

 

I've watched once -- complete with keening and wailing and hiding my face behind my hands and ending up on the floor in the fetal position.  And I've READ the books.  Damn.  That was intense.  And I'm completely freaked out because I expected the episode to end with the rescue.  Instead we end the prison scenes with "Shall we begin?"  Holy Shite the foreboding!

 

Dear powers that be -- thank you for the Highland cows.  Other than that -- you owe me a bottle of whisky and a Xamax.

Edited May 16, 2015 by WatchrTina

[justmehere]

I wondered why Jamie didn't crush Randall's balls when Randall forced his (Jamie's) hand into his (Randall's) crotch.

-------------------------------------

Because he'd given his word to "surrender" to BJR in return for Claire being made safe.  Keeping his word is the last thing he can do hang onto his dignity and feel that he's doing something for Claire.  Besides, he's weakened and in excruciating pain already -- at the slightest hint of "crushing" BJR would bring that mallet down on Jamie's mangled hand again.

 

 

No, the scene came before Claire got there, so before Jamie's promise to surrender. Yes, he was in excruciating pain. But Jamie was also muttering that he would kill Jack. It just felt to me like it would have been almost an instinct to squeeze. To fight. The hand crushing came because he was fighting. Adding that part at all (I think it was added) -- with forcing his hand into Randall's crotch -- it felt like Jamie would have still attempted to hurt Randall.

Edited May 16, 2015 by justmehere

[Hybiscus]

No, the scene came before Claire got there, so before Jamie's promise to surrender. Yes, he was in excruciating pain. But Jamie was also muttering that he would kill Jack. It just felt to me like it would have been almost an instinct to squeeze. To fight. The hand crushing came because he was fighting. Adding that part at all (I think it was added) -- with forcing his hand into Randall's crotch -- it felt like Jamie would have still attempted to hurt Randall.

Jamie was in excruciating pain.  And he likely was in shock.  I doubt he had much fight in him at that moment, let alone coherent thoughts.  In the book, Randall broke his hand because Jamie had punched him in the nose (if I recall correctly).  Here, hammering the hand seemed to be calculated and cold-blooded.

 

I'm not sure BJR chose the left hand, though.  If he was trying to cause maximum injury, as he was trying in the book, wouldn't he have gone for the right hand?  I realize it would make things even more difficult for Jamie in the future, but wasn't that the whole point?  Also, in the books, I believe Jamie signs his name with his right hand.  DG makes a point of talking about how difficult it is for him and how illegible (or distinct?) his signature is.  I don't know if that's because left-handedness was frowned upon at the time.  Anyone have any ideas?

[WatchrTina]

 

No, the scene came before Claire got there, so before Jamie's promise to surrender.

 

Yes, you are right.  I got the scenes out of order in my head.  I jumped up from my second viewing to come fix that note, but I didn't see that you'd already quoted it.

 

Anyway -- it's a fair questions so the only answer I can come up with is that Jamie is in a half-swoon at that point -- collapsed against Jack and only partially in command of himself.  Hence the muttered threats but no actual ability to carry them out.

 

So . . . is that realistic?  I ask because I remember an episode of Alias where Sydney's mom shoots her to put her in pain, which releases a huge surge of adrenaline that allows Sydney to escape.  On the other hand, it's a common trope in fiction to have characters faint from pain.  Jamie passing in and out of consciousness in this episode is just a bit too . . . convenient for my taste.  He's awake when the plot needs him to be and swooning or unconscious when the plot needs him to be.  It's a small flaw, but one that I bothered me a bit (in an otherwise excellent episode).  I'm off to watch it with headphones now.

Edited May 16, 2015 by WatchrTina

[GHScorpiosRule]

I'm not sure BJR chose the left hand, though. If he was trying to cause maximum injury, as he was trying in the book, wouldn't he have gone for the right hand? I realize it would make things even more difficult for Jamie in the future, but wasn't that the whole point? Also, in the books, I believe Jamie signs his name with his right hand. DG makes a point of talking about how difficult it is for him and how illegible (or distinct?) his signature is. I don't know if that's because left-handedness was frowned upon at the time. Anyone have any ideas?

Actually Jamie was known to fight with his left hand but Black Jack didn't know that and even mentioned in the book that he hadn't realized he was left handed. I think he realized that when Jaime attacked Marley using his left.

In dragonfly, Jenny says Jamie being a lefty was of concern and he was forced to learn how to write with his right hand.

But like I said before, Sam is right-handed, so they changed that part of the character when Jamie is fighting on the show.

[justmehere]

Yeah, I don't know how adrenaline actually works with serious injury -- it might be an individual thing. Swooning makes sense in that moment. Gathering his wits a bit more as time passed makes sense. But for Jamie to have his hand on that man's sensitive areas and not react from instinct felt off to me. That's where a little surge of adrenaline would have seemed appropriate, but maybe he really wasn't aware enough -- as you say WatchrTina -- making threats but unable to act. I don't know. It's just something that struck me.

[bluebonnet]

The hope and expectation is almost always that everyone will always fight back at every moment, especially when sexual assault and rape are happening.  It's not always like that.  Whether or not Jamie is swooning from a severely damaged hand, it's likely still completely shocking to be sexually assaulted.  The mind can nearly shut down, lock itself up while asking what's going on.  Rape is terrible no matter if it's gently coerced or violently forced.  But what's happening here is shocking in it's own way because the only reason BJR is aroused is because Jamie has been hurt and is now in so much pain he's in a fetal position.  I saw the look on Jamie's face (apart from "omg my hand i ca't breathe this is so much much) to be "what the fuck is going on this is so much worse than i ever thought this man could be."  

 

Shock can make us freeze.  The fear of more pain can make us freeze.  

[Pestilentia]

 

When I listened to the audio book a few weeks ago the description of the torture seemed to go on and on and on.

Maybe that's why I remember it going on for so long- it was another of her multi-page marathon descriptive scenes.

Sure felt like forever, though.

[JennyMominFL]

I've been waiting for this episode forever.  Not because of the storyline but because my freind was playing Sir Fletcher Gordon. That was awesome. 

[WatchrTina]

Right, I’ve watched this episode three times.  Here are my thoughts.

 

THE GOOD
Jamie and MacQuarrie’s pre-hanging banter/plotting was good and completely realistic. Gallows humor.  For real.

 

The look on BJR’s face after he “saves” Jamie – well I don’t know if “good” is the right word.  But the acting – that was good, as was the answering look of co-mingled relief, confusion and suspicion from Jamie.

 

In fact, why don’t I just talk about Sam’s performance all at once?  He was amazing.  You can chart the progress of this whole episode in Sam/Jamie’s face.  From the defiance when he and BJR first start talking, to the plotting when BJR make’s his offer, to the agony and near swooning when his hand is crushed, to the desperation when he shouts “STOP” to prevent Jack from choking Claire, to the single tear as BJR tears his shirt off, to the look of fear when Jack says “Shall we begin?”  Damn.  Give that man an Emmy.

 

When Sir Fletcher gives Claire Jamie’s personal effects you can see the little snake Jenny gave him – the one carved by their dead bother – as well as Jamie’s formal brooch.  Aw.

 

The Rupert/Angus mutual admiration society provided some needed levity.  Did you see Rupert take a taste of the ale off his hand after Murtagh tossed it on him?

 

“Whoso Pulleth Out This Sword of this Stone and Anvil, is Rightwise King Born of all England.”  Well, our JAMMF is a “King of Men.”  Keep yanking Arthur, I mean Jamie.

 

I did love the first shot of Jamie – through the bars – when BJR shows up in the dungeon for the first time.  Also loved the last shot of that scene – the burning of the letter condemning Jack, the flames illuminating Jamie’s face, followed by the fade to black.

 

I loved Murtagh’s “I’m just a manservant” face.

 

The lighting in the dungeon was extraordinary.  I’m accustomed to the brilliant way this show uses indirect light – especially fire-light and light streaming into the big dark houses from windows – but the torch-lit dungeon scenes were really spectacular.  The lighting on their faces really added to Sam & Tobias’ performances.

 

“You’re the broken one!  You’re the one that sees my face every night!”  Yeah, you tell’m Jamie!

 

On first viewing I got confused by Jack offering Jamie the death of his choice in return for his surrender.  I thought “Really – that’s the best you’ve got to offer – do you really expect that to be tempting?”  Then I got confused by Jamie seeming to give the offer due consideration.  But the second time I watched I concluded that each of them was trying to play the other.  Jack didn’t want Jamie to take the deal – he wanted him to fight back so that Jack could then hurt him while putting the blame on Jamie (“You made me do it!”)  Jamie plays right into his hands when he attacks though, being the man he is, what other response was possible?

 

I liked the change from the book in that Claire hears Jamie screaming and that’s how she finds him.  I think that’s more realistic than her amazing good luck at finding him in the book.  Also the fact that he’s just had his hand smashed makes (somewhat) plausible his swooning and regaining of consciousness at just the right times needed for the plot (as long as I don’t think about it too hard.)

 

Did you catch the look on the big English soldier’s face when the little one says, “Will the captain allow us to take the woman into custody?”  He shoots him a look of “Oh no you did NOT just say that!”  It made me laugh.  Gallows humor.  For real.

 

I liked the addition of the second door – the trap door for bodies.  In the book it always bothered me that Jack didn’t lock the door after he tossed Claire out into the snow.  In the show, he doesn’t know the big door is unlocked.  I also liked the addition of MacQuarrie to the story and it was touching to see him in the body pile (though he looked awfully good for someone who slowly strangled from a bad hanging.)

 

I’ll bet Terry Dresbach (the costume designer) approved how tough Jamie’s shirt was and how much effort it took to cut it off.  In past episodes it has required some willful suspension of disbelief to look past how easily Jack can rip bodices off women or Dougal can tear a linen shirt off Jamie.

 

I loved Murtagh’s subtle/clever reaction to hearing MacRannoch’s story about giving the pearls to Ellen (Holy Dickensian coincidences Batman!)  On the one hand you know he has to be a bit miffed that there was a THIRD suitor he didn’t know about giving Ellen secret gifts of jewelry for her wedding but he swallows that and plays up Jamie’s connection to Ellen (“He’s the spit of her”) in order to motivate MacRannoch to help.

 

I loved the look on Murtagh face when announces he has a plan.  His smiles are so rare – they droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven.

 

And last but not least – Highland cows! 

 

THE BAD
Murtagh carrying Claire away from the prison was dramatic and picturesque but also rather silly.  She puked.  She didn’t faint.

 

I gotta complain about the fight choreography between Sam and the big guy playing Marley.  Clearly the big guy wasn’t choking Sam with the board against his throat – Sam’s head is off the floor.  Oops.

 

It’s good that some people turn away when Jack smashes Jamie’s hand with the mallet, because that hand is rather clearly fake.  It’s only used in that one moment but I noticed it.  Also, Jack smashes the “meat” of the hand (which I presume looked better on camera) but in the book he meticulously breaks each finger individually.  Which is sicker.

 

I gotta complain about the fight choreography between Claire and Marley and Jack.  It just wasn’t believable that a woman would be able to push those big men around.  Maybe Marley – he was off-balance because he was pawing at her – but the bit where she got Jack off Jamie and then got a chain around his neck – no, that didn’t ring true to me.

 

In the book, the unburied bodies outside the prison are due to it being the dead of winter.  The ground is too hard to dig graves and the cold will preserve the bodies until they can be buried (at least the ones the wolves don’t eat.)  In the show, the head of the prison is depicted as being a devout Christian so it makes no sense that he’d leave the dead unburied, denying them Christian burial, during warm weather  And the smell!  Ew.

 

Dear TV actors: when you are all alone in a scary place (like the woods with wolves howling around you) please do not walk backwards.  It’s absurd.

 

 

THE UGLY

The title card.  OMG the title card.  Between Bear McCreary sustaining that one note from the opening credits to that gruesome metal mask (and I don’t even want to know what its purpose is) the opening credits were terrifying.

 

MacQuarrie strangling to death instead of having a clean death was awful.

 

The questions BJR taunted Jamie with were so awful – especially the one that went “When you lie upon your wife and she runs her hands along the scars on your back, do you think of me . . . and soften?”  Ugh!

 

Marley searching Claire, putting his hand up her skirt, then smelling his fingers.  Ugh.  And where the bloody hell was the dagger Jenny gave Claire?  Did she not tell Claire to put it in her stocking top and never leave it off?  Not that it would have done her any good after that search.

 

The lines:  “I haven’t even begun.” and later “Shall we begin?”  Chilling.

 

The shot of Jamie’s hand, nailed to the table, with the fingers wiggling every so slightly.  Heartbreaking.

 

OTHER STUFF

Why is there a nudity warning at the beginning of the episode?  Was shirtless Jamie in the “Previously on Outlander” section enough to require that?  Was seeing Sam’s prosthetic-covered back the cause?  That seems silly.

 

Shouldn’t that official document condemning Jamie to hang have contained his whole JAMMF name and not just “James Fraser”?

 

I’m pretty sure I spotted the Leoch kitchen hearth right there behind Sir Fletcher in his office. 

 

Glad to see someone gave Claire a drink after her ordeal.  Wish someone had given me one. 

 

And finally, no Waldo sightings occurred during the viewing of this episode.  Sigh.

Edited May 16, 2015 by WatchrTina

[Starla]

I've been waiting for this episode forever.  Not because of the storyline but because my freind was playing Sir Fletcher Gordon. That was awesome. 

 

He was great. I read an article about him playing the Doctor Who character that inspired Outlander and Jamie. He was the doctor's companion named Jamie, and the actor's last name is Frazer. So wonderful they could get him for a part.

 

WatchrTina, you're right about that title card. The music combined with the Marcellus Wallace medieval torture devices so ominous I began to wonder what the heck we were about to see. Fortunately the mask didn't make a reappearance.

[JennyMominFL]

 

He was great. I read an article about him playing the Doctor Who character that inspired Outlander and Jamie. He was the doctor's companion named Jamie, and the actor's last name is Frazer. So wonderful they could get him for a part.

 

WatchrTina, you're right about that title card. The music combined with the Marcellus Wallace medieval torture devices so ominous I began to wonder what the heck we were about to see. Fortunately the mask didn't make a reappearance.

His first name is actually Frazer. Frazer Hines. So  they have combined his first name  and his Doctor Who characters first name. I'm pretty sure DG did the Fraser part by accident, but the Jamie part was deliberate.  The pronunciation is different too with Frazer's name pronounced with a hard Z instead of a soft s . It's not pronounced the the Kelsey Grammar character.

Edited May 16, 2015 by JennyMominFL

[Starla]

Ah, you're right Jenny, thanks for the correction. It would be fun to see some of his episodes, especially the one that inspired Diana to write the book. I love Doctor Who but haven't seen many of the older episodes. I think there are a few on Netflix but they are somewhat hard to come by.

[nodorothyparker]

The pacing problems with this show have never been more apparent than now when we're heading into the finale not even having gotten to the prison escape yet. We may get a whole whopping 20 minutes to patch Jamie up, deal with the trauma of the worst thing to ever happen to him, and convince him to live beyond it once we get through that.

[JennyMominFL]

Ah, you're right Jenny, thanks for the correction. It would be fun to see some of his episodes, especially the one that inspired Diana to write the book. I love Doctor Who but haven't seen many of the older episodes. I think there are a few on Netflix but they are somewhat hard to come by.

There are 2 newly recovered episodes of his that are really really good. There are also some on youtube ,like Tomb Of The Cyberman, which is good.

It is weird seeing  him as and Englishman  in Scotland when in DW his was Scottish in England.

[Mockingbird]

Oof. That scene with Claire clinging to Jamie while Jack nailed his hand to the table was brutal. So well acted, but so difficult to watch. My heart hurt for Claire--having to watch the man she loves in so much pain, knowing that this is only the beginning--much more than it ever did while reading.

[JennyMominFL]

I see Emmy nods for  Sam and Tobias for this one.

[Oconnellaboo]

I've been waiting for this episode forever. Not because of the storyline but because my freind was playing Sir Fletcher Gordon. That was awesome.

Your friend is Frazer Hines? How very cool! The ORIGINAL Highlander Jamie - and inspiration for this future incarnation. He was terrific - on Doctor Who, and in tonight's episode. I was so pleased they asked him to play a role.

ETA: A bit late to the party! Just saw so many others noticed too. Awesome.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Oconnellaboo

[Clawdette]

I am shocked at my level of being unshocked.  After all the dire warnings I was expecting much worse.  As others have said, performances were outstanding.

[nodorothyparker]

I'm struck by the sense that the show shot their wad entirely too early and too often with Black Jack/Tobias Menzies. Every time he appears on screen it's all creepy creepy torture torture to the point that there's very little that's surprising or new about it. He's almost a cartoon villain anyway. It would have been more genuinely shocking if he hadn't been.

[Dust Bunny]

The previews for the finale. Speechless.

 

I cried at the mallet and the nail. I don't know what I'm going to do in 2 weeks.

 

I loved how Jaime and Claire held each other during the nail. Such a moment. I can already tell that the "beautiful scene" in the finale is going to be amazing. 

 

Kudos to all - actors, writers, director, producers, crew - who did all this. Exceptional work.

 

Off for a HUGE dram of whisky.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Dust Bunny

[Nidratime]

I am shocked at my level of being unshocked.  After all the dire warnings I was expecting much worse.  As others have said, performances were outstanding.

The reviewers saw both episodes -- 15 and 16 -- at once, so they are commenting on the whole two hours. Episode 16 should be ... a barrel of laughs! ;-)

[Archery]

Don't go into No Book Talk. Folk are incensed.

You know, I'm not at all worried about the pacing of the last episode. The pilot, the wedding, and the finale probably were the most carefully crafted of the series, because the whole story rests on them. They are the three things you think about when you think about Outlander. I'm reasonably certain that the writers and directors will have produced their best possible product for the end of the season.

I suspect critics were given both episode 15 and 16 to review. I'm glad I stayed "unspoiled" as to the series. While I have my own images in my head, I'm willing to let the people tell their story. Internet expectations always ruin everything.

As for the episode itself, I watch the first time while pacing the living room. BJR is no cartoon villain; no matter how depraved the conversation, he says it in such a measured, reasonable tone that you practically need closed captioning to register how crazy he is. I liked the addition of the hangings (in a weird way) because it fed into all of Jamie's horrible choices. The psychological torture began with the first scene, and you see the partial payoff as Jamie is considering the possibility of dying quickly and with honor.

Also? My favorite line from the book sequence was included: "Witch I am, and I curse you..." So good.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Archery

[Nidratime]

Also? My favorite line from the book sequence was included: "Witch I am, and I curse you..." So good.

 

 

I absolutely love that part of this episode.

 

Also, I'm kind of surprised that MacRannoch didn't know that the guys were trying to rescue Jamie before he found out from Claire. What did the Mackenzie men and Murtagh tell him when they "stopped by?"

Edited May 17, 2015 by Nidratime

[ElsieH]

Don't go into No Book Talk. Folk are incensed.

I saw that too, can't wait to see what they think of the finale.

Eta: sorry the quote thing is weird on the iPad.

Edited May 17, 2015 by ElsieH

[Keeta]

I watched a good third of this episode through my fingers, as expected. I'm finding it hard to judge overall, so just some random observations:

 

They covered less in this episode than I thought they would, although that may be because I don't recall the specifics of this section of the book very well, since it's not much fun to re-read.

 

Amazing performances by all concerned. Tobias Menzies portrays so well the sick, twisted sense of pleasure that drives Black Jack, making him a more interesting villain than he might otherwise be. Both he and Sam did an incredible job with their scenes.

 

Caitriona's despairing sobbing into Sam's chest before being taken away was just gut wrenching. And amazing work when Claire has to hold it together with Sir Fletcher.

 

I'm glad they cut the wolves, I always thought that was dumb in the book.

 

Lastly: is Sam Heughan the king of the single tear? Discuss.

[WatchrTina]

 

Don't go into No Book Talk. Folk are incensed.

Can I just say I howled with laughter?  One post basically predicts exactly what will happen in the next episode, except she's offering those plot points up as examples of bad writing.  What can I say -- it cracked me up.

 

I also saw a few "Oh I am so done with this show" tweets during the ep (I was reading the #Outlander feed during the first broadcast) and I don't doubt that the violence of this episode will cost the show some viewers (especially if, as I suspect, things get worse in the next episode before they get better.)  But I've always known this part of the book was going to be tough for some people.  All things considered, I thought that was a freaking fantastic hour of television.  Was it violent?  Yes.  But you know what was refreshing?  The horrible aspects were presented as . . . horrible.  Contrast that with so many shows where "red shirt" cast members get their throats cut without so much as a reaction from the main cast, or get raped in the background (*cough* Krasters Keep *cough*) and hardly any attention is paid.  This episode says rape and torture is horrible and presents it as such.  And does it with absolutely amazing visuals and stellar acting.  If people are incensed, let 'em go.  I think the cast & crew have every reason to be proud.

 

 

Lastly: is Sam Heughan the king of the single tear? Discuss.

That was so good and you just know it was real -- no Visine or plucked nasal hairs were used.  But what I really think he's the king of is the 1000-yard stare at the very end.  Just heartbreaking.

Edited May 17, 2015 by WatchrTina

[Nidratime]

Very interesting Hollywood Reporter article/interview with the writer of the episode, Ira Steve Behr. The atmosphere on the set sounded particularly intense.

 

'Outlander' Writer on "Uncomfortable" Jamie vs. Black Jack Scenes: "Worst I've Ever Spent on a Set"

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/outlander-writer-uncomfortable-jamie-black-796077

[SoWindsor]

This show lost me which is why I am here. As soon as I lose interest in a show I don't care about spoilers or knowing what will happen.

I didn't like this episode and haven't enjoyed the 2nd part of the season.

What are the wolves that you all are talking about? I haven't read the books but I don't care about being spoiled.

[WatchrTina]

 

What are the wolves that you all are talking about?

In the book when Claire is tossed out of the prison into the boneyard she is attacked by a wolf and kills him with her bare hands.  Some people think that episode strains credulity.  But in the book that's where MacRannoch meets Claire (he and his men save her from the rest of the wolf pack.)  It was cut from the show other than the howls you hear as Claire is searching the woods for Murtagh.

[bluebonnet]

Wow, the No Book Talk thread is, um, interesting.  I guess knowing that Jamie will actually suffer severe and lifelong problems from this particular event makes it easier for me to accept why this is part of the story.  Reading the No Book Talk thread and speaking to one of my Unsullied friends, it seems like the going theory is that since Jamie is the romantic lead, he'll bounce back with no problem.  Har!  If only they knew that 20+ years later, Jamie still has problems.

 

Though, I did get a giggle over the idea of Claire curing him with her magic vagina, because that sort of happens.  Only it's much much worse, and we're left wondering if Claire technically raped her husband.  

 

I still haven't watched a second time.  Sam's face still haunts me a bit.  I've gotten shivers thinking about it.  I'm not disturbed by torture and such.  It's seeing the aftermath and also the fear at the time that really makes me ill.  

[tcay]

I'm not going to rewatch this episode, so I just have a few stray thoughts:

 

• When Black Jack stopped Jamie's execution, it looked like Jamie considered jumping off anyway. 
• Claire vomiting outside the prison could be morning sickness.
• The torture scenes were very hard to watch, but I also leave the room whenever things get dicey on GoT, so I'm a bad judge of that.
• Harder to watch than the torture, though, were Jamie's expressions. Just terrifying. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

Guys, this is how much this episode affected me:

I just finished a rematch ok episodes1-9.

The non book readers reacted as I expected they would, and I just shake my head.