S04.E21: Mother

[Mari]

More evidence for my headcanon that Cora put a subtle enchantment on Regina to keep her from plotting to attack Cora directly. Something that flushes away the intellectual thought process but leaves the emotion behind the impulse intact (i.e., leaving Regina with a lot of directionless anger to pour into her magic or her hapless targets -- including herself, apparently). This isn't the first time we've seen Regina flip to Cora's side on a dime for no good reason and the only time Regina did attack Cora, Rumpel was there and could have suspended Cora's spell temporarily.

Huh. Maybe it's a Mills superpower. It could explain why no one reacted to Regina's behavior realistically, either. We'd only have to figure out why it didn't seem to work for Zelena.

[RadioGirl27]

This episode was better that last week's, but it had some problems. The first half was quite boring, and all the episode felt very disjointed, but that has been one of the many problems with this half season. The flashback was pointless and another retcon of Cora's story.
 
But the moment with Hook and Emma at the docks was lovely, and I liked the conversation between Mal and Lily after she transforms, very touching and well-acted.
 

Captain Swan are so lovely. It does bother me a bit that we see Hook so supportive of Emma but when Hook got his heart stolen she wasn't really there for him. She's so mad about Gold for trying to turn her dark but she never was even a bit for trying to kill Hook (or trying to hat her, so I guess she just forgot all that he did in 4A). But A&E said we would find out how she really feels about him. I hope it's good but I guess I'll just forever be bitter about 4.11.

 This. I will be forever bitter about 4.11.
 

We need more of Hook's backstory because every time Emma's issues with her parents come up, the way he deals with her has all kinds of "but ... parents! Don't miss this chance!" subtext.

 Yeah, but instead, we would get more pointless Regina's flashbacks.
 

You know, for as sweet and touching as the Hook/Emma conversation was near the docks, it would have packed a lot bigger emotional punch if we had more any character interaction between Charming, Snow, and Hook while Emma was gone. If we had seen a conversation where Charming and Snow opened up to Hook about how they felt ashamed for what they did and had a heart-to-heart about being worried Emma would never forgive them, him encouraging Emma would have been a bit more realistic. But since the writers hate characterization scenes like that, I'm left watching that (still very lovely) Hook/Emma conversation wondering, "Wait, did Hook just gather all of that information about how Charming and Snow feel by observation? Is he just really good at reading people's emotions? Because he hasn't had a one-on-one conversation with Charming since 4.02 and I don't think he's ever had a one-on-one conversation with Snow."

Yeah, the fact that we haven't had a single conversation between Hook and the Charmings during this storyline is ridiculous. But we know how much the writers hate this kind of stuff, unless it serves to advance the plot.

[TigerLynx]

My enjoyment of the episodes are hampered by the fact that the only characters I care about are Emma, Hook, Elsa, Anna and Sven (three of whom have exited stage left).  

 

I could get interested in Mal and Lily especially in dragon form.

 

I miss Cruella.  What can I say?  I appreciate a villain who wants to be a villain and doesn't whine.

 

Which brings me to - I don't give a damn about Regina, Gold, Zelena, or Cora.

[Shanna Marie]

I can't believe Robin Hood was already saying to Regina at the bar that maybe their happy ending was still possible though messy.  So we don't get to see any shock that his wife is now confirmed to be dead?

And we still haven't seen any reaction to the fact that Marian was in that position in the first place because she needed to be rescued from Regina's dungeon, and in the previous timeline Regina executed her.

 

I thought it was interesting that flashback Regina told Cora that she'd feel it if she was really with her soulmate, and yet she was around Robin for a year in the Enchanted Forest and found him annoying, then didn't have any interest in him in Storybooke until she saw the tattoo. If they were trying to depict soulmates, they did it wrong.

 

I do love that Hook was trying to get Emma in a nice calm state by looking at the ocean and Emma was all "That's nice. Alcohol please."

A sailor finding his happy place in looking at the ocean was a nice touch. It would have been even better if they'd been on the deck of the Jolly Roger for that bit, because that's his real happy place.

[Curio]

Zelena: "The fact that if you kill me, Robin will always know that you murdered the mother of his child."

Regina: "You underestimate me, Zelena."

 

I was so hoping Regina would follow that up with, "He didn't care the first time. Why would he care the second time?"

[YaddaYadda]

Robin is very seriously cringeworthy.  He really didn't give two fucks that Marian was basically taken for target practice not once, but twice.  She deserved so much better than that douche nozzle.

[kili]

She deserved so much better than that douche nozzle.

That slimeball the Sheriff of Nottingham mourned losing her more than Robin did (he was distraught in his own way when Rumple/Belle encountered him, though skeezy as usual).

 

And don't give me that "he came to terms with her death 30 years ago" nonsense. He didn't experience 28 of those years and he was re-committed to her for the last 9 weeks such that a baby is on the way. Surely, he should feel something more than "great, I can get back to my mistress" when he finds out she is dead.

 

I cannot believe how Robin turns on a dime and has no problem whatsoever with the two women who have killed his wife. And nonchallantly agreeing to mindwiping his child? I guess he is Regina's soulmate.

[YaddaYadda]

I cannot believe how Robin turns on a dime and has no problem whatsoever with the two women who have killed his wife. And nonchallantly agreeing to mindwiping his child? I guess he is Regina's soulmate.

 

Cora and Nottingham clearly misjudged him.  I think Nottingham died under Gold's boot, correct?  Wasn't he turned into a snail and then stepped on?  Or am I completely misremembering this?

[Rumsy4]

I cannot believe how Robin turns on a dime and has no problem whatsoever with the two women who have killed his wife. And nonchallantly agreeing to mindwiping his child? I guess he is Regina's soulmate.

 

The whole scene made me cringe. Robin comes across as really really desperate. He's such a feckless loser. Regina deserves better.

[kili]

I think Nottingham died under Gold's boot, correct?  Wasn't he turned into a snail and then stepped on?  Or am I completely misremembering this?

 

We don't know Nottingham's final fate. During his first encounter with Rumple (Rumple is searching for the recently escaped Robin), he simply loses his tongue for a while. When Gold next encounters him (hitting on Lacey in the bar - he did not recognize her as Belle and when he sees Rumple, he immediately tries to take back what he has done even though she was clearly interested), Gold once again rips out his tongue and begins beating him with the cane. We fade to black as Lacey encourages him to give him more whacks. He may have died in the incident because Gold had finally found a way to get Lacey interested in him (he later beats Dr. Whale with Lacey's encouragement, but Neal stops him).

 

It was the carter who accidently bumped Bae in the street giving him a skinned knee that was turned into a snail and crushed.

 

Cora and Nottingham clearly misjudged him.

 

Nottingham never liked Robin, but Cora should have just killed his wife and then set up for a date with Regina that night.  Robin would be totally okay with that. Little John could have babysat baby Rolland.

Edited May 4, 2015 by kili

[scarynikki12]

I finally figured out what was really bothering me about this episode while I was at work today.  I think that Henry Sr should have been incorporated more into the flashbacks.  In particular, I think he should have been the one to say the lines about how Cora's wrong about love not being a weakness and Regina being responsible for her own happy ending.  Cora saying them is just too jarring with the woman who showed up in Storybrooke ready to destroy everyone and become the new Dark One.  Well, the second line can work with season 2 Cora but not in the way she said/meant it to Regina. 

 

Anyway, I feel that it would have felt more earned if Henry had said the happy ending line.  He could have mirrored Zelena in a way by coming to her after she'd taken the potion, told her she was becoming more like Cora every day and that her happy ending was only up to her.  I can see Regina ignoring that advice and then it coming back to her when Zelena jogs her memory.  Then she'd realize that Henry Sr was right and Cora's characterization would still be consistent.  I know Henry Sr was a weak man but even Rumpel once found the courage to go to Captain Jones and ask for Milah's return so anything is possible. 

[YaddaYadda]

He's such a feckless loser. Regina deserves better.

 

You know there's a problem with the writing when a lot of people think Regina deserves better, including some who can't stand her (me).  Maybe that's the reason Robin is written like someone who has been hit upside the head repeatedly...and hard.

 

Thanks for answering the snail question, Kili.  I realize that I blocked a lot of stuff on this show.

[scenicbyway]

Finally saw the last two episodes.  I think it actually helped to watch them together since it made for one continuous (lame) road trip.  Anyone else think it was strange that there was no sign of Roland in NYC or even back in Storybrooke?

 

I don't know what to think of Zelena staying around.  Why exactly is she imprisoned?  Because she wants to replace Regina?  If she's wearing the magic cuff, why can't she just be under house arrest or something?  I realize they want to "keep" her around just in case they have a spare five minutes to fill, but I wish the writer had taken it upon himself to write her out.

 

I'm glad that Regina finally acknowledged that Robin isn't her happy ending.  But I wish that she'd kick him to the curb all the same.  Maybe I got the wrong impression, but when they parted in the mid-season finale, Robin was only going with Marian because of Roland.  It wasn't like he wasn't ever going to see Regina again.  He chose Regina, that's why Marian's heart froze again--(which, again makes no sense with Zelena actually being Marian).  I just find it hard to believe that Robin and Marian would've hopped into bed (with in a few weeks of leaving Storybrooke) when both of them knew he was in love with Regina.  I also don't think Zelena's actually preggo.

 

Lily is lame.  That's pretty much all I can say about her.  What's the point with that whole storyline?  Snow and Charming have made mistakes and aren't perfect?  We get it show.

 

I just find Maleficent creepy, and not particularly compelling.

 

How is Rumple still walking around with that burnt potato for a heart AND why does it matter, if, as the DARK ONE, he's immortal anyway?!

 

Captain Swan is the only thing holding me to the show through this dud of 4b.  I'm excited for this next week, but really haven't cared about the author or Lily storyline.  Why did they promote the "Queens of Darkness" when they turned out to be so insignificant.  Why not have promoted the "Author," never mind, I know why, BECAUSE IT"S LAME AND NO ONE WOULD WATCH it.

 

 

[tennisgurl]

*Sigh* If they want me to feel bad for Regina, and want me to root for her happy ending, could you PLEASE stop showing her murdering innocent people without consequences. I half expect that finance of that poor guy she killed to go running up and Regina, asking her if she remembers killing her fiance. When she says she dosnt, she screams his name (whatever it is) and stabs Regina. Ok, I don't expect that, but its something to think about.

 

Of course, all the horrible things that happened to Robin and his family is all about Regina. Of course. At least she has FINALLY had some legit character growth. kind of shoddy growth, but I guess I`ll take it.

 

CaptainSwan is so wonderful, I almost feel like different writers are writing for them, than for the rest of the show. How can they write one ship so well, and write OutlawQueen so poorly? Although, still not enough Hook. Or anyone besides Regina. Her flashbacks this week were pointless, even though we got to see Cora. Love her evil self. 

 

All in all, kinda just uneventful. Hopefully next week will make up for it. 

 

Next Week" When Fanfiction attacks! 

[Curio]

Lily is lame.  That's pretty much all I can say about her.  What's the point with that whole storyline?  Snow and Charming have made mistakes and aren't perfect?  We get it show.

I didn't actually mind young Lily as much, but adult Lily bores me to tears. Probably because I hate this whole egg baby plot and could care less about Maleficent and her daughter issues. Lily also eats up precious time we could be spending with our regular characters who have disappeared into the background, like Hook (who we still don't even know who his parents are, but the writers really needed us to see Lily reunite with her mother...), Belle, Charming, and Will (who was basically a non-entity this entire season). Heck, even Henry has gone missing and he was the one helping Regina mastermind Operation Mongoose all season! What the hell?

 

Why did they promote the "Queens of Darkness" when they turned out to be so insignificant.  Why not have promoted the "Author," never mind, I know why, BECAUSE IT'S LAME AND NO ONE WOULD WATCH it.

The Queens of Darkness were so useless and unessential to Rumple's plans, and therefore, unessential to the entire plot of 4B. All of their stories and centric episodes were so different from one another that it made the season disjointed and uneven. The only reason they marketed them on all the posters is because of their famous villain names.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Curio

[Delphi]

I mean Zelena might not have magic thanks to the cuff. But she's still responsible for indirectly killing Neal, keeping Rumple locked in her cellar, trying to drown Hook, breaking into Regina's office and house, starting a riot on Main Street that resulted in property damage, whatever she did to Belle in the hospital, trying to strangle Henry and kidnapping Snow's baby seconds after she gave birth. Is there a reason why they shouldn't lock her up?

Incidentally, without her pendant would Zelena really be a match for Regina or Emma in a magic fight? How did she get her magic back?

Edited May 4, 2015 by Delphi

[Zuleikha]

I'm glad that Regina finally acknowledged that Robin isn't her happy ending.

I really wish the fairyback had been used to get Regina to this point rather than to show Regina making herself infertile. I find the way infertility was used in the fairyback to be insulting; Regina's biggest block against happiness at that point in time was NOT her lack of a child. No, it was the combination of trauma from a lifetime of physical and emotional abuse compounded with seeing her true love murdered in front of her and being forced into a loveless marriage (and gee, Cora, who could be responsible for that?) topped with embracing dark magic and murder. Also, Rumplestiltskin working behind the scenes to encourage Regina to make the worse choices possible in order to make her miserable and desperate enough to cast the dark curse. Regina's problem was that she was choosing murder and power over therapy, not that she drank a potion to keep Cora from becoming a grandmother.

 

I think there could have been a fairyback involving Cora stealing Henry Sr. (which is an event that's actually been referenced on the show) that could have culminated in something where Regina had to choose between losing power and preventing Cora from taking Henry Sr. to Wonderland, and we see Regina once again make the wrong choice (with Henry Sr. saying the line instead of Cora, so it has some actual credibility). Then, there could be a parallel moment at the end with the Author where Robin asks Regina not to write the baby out of existence and Regina backs down. In my ideal, she would still have the Author write something to render Zelena harmless because Regina's not supposed to be an idiot. I'd also like her to break up with Robin for good because I think he's a fickle douchecanoe. But it just doesn't work for me to have Regina's "good" ending being Regina being okay raising Zelena and Robin's child given the full circumstances of how the child came to exist and, especially, how dangerous and malicious Zelena continues to be.

 

I would also have accepted a variation on the current fairyback that resulted in Regina and Robin rejecting the notion of pixie dust soulmates. After all, Robin was married to Marian at the point when Cora was theoretically looking for Regina's soulmate. Robin clearly was not actually her soulmate at that point in time since he was in true love with someone else. Tinkerbell clearly doesn't know what's up with pixie dust since she thought Robin's life would be ruined by not meeting Regina when we know Robin either was already with Marian or met and became with Marian not too long afterwards. His life was fine. 

[Shanna Marie]

Heck, even Henry has gone missing and he was the one helping Regina mastermind Operation Mongoose all season! What the hell?

Yeah, after him being the biggest Operation Mongoose cheerleader who has devoted almost all his time all season to this search for the author so Regina could get her happy ending, what would he think about Regina's epiphany that she was responsible for her own happy ending? Would he be like "Oh, cool! Way to go, Mom!" or "Wait, what? You couldn't have decided that sooner, before I spent all that time with a magnifying glass and that book?"

 

That's why this plot was so annoying. All of what Regina said was exactly what so many of us have been saying from the beginning, and yet all the main characters bought into it. It just makes them all look dumb that they didn't figure this out. I could see Regina refusing to believe them until she figured it out for herself, but having Emma, especially, be totally on board and even being the one to release the author so Regina could get her happy ending just made no sense.

 

Also, the whole idea that it's very bad if Rumple dies and the Dark One is still there seems to be a retcon from season 2, or is death by Dreamshade different than death by charcoal heart? Because then they were saying the power would just go away when he died, and that was why Cora wanted to get to him with the dagger first, so the Dark One power wouldn't be wasted.

[iMonrey]

 

Incidentally, without her pendant would Zelena really be a match for Regina or Emma in a magic fight? How did she get her magic back?

 

I wish I had time to go back and watch an old episode, but I'm pretty sure that back when Zelina joined the coven of good witches, they established that her magic was transferred into her green pendant, and that without it she would be powerless. So I have no idea why they even needed to use the cuff on her.

 

I'd also have to go back and check another old episode, but I'm pretty sure they established that Cora remained in Wonderland from the time Regina banished her there to the time Hook brought her back. This flashback felt like a retcon.

[Souris]

Also, the whole idea that it's very bad if Rumple dies and the Dark One is still there seems to be a retcon from season 2, or is death by Dreamshade different than death by charcoal heart? Because then they were saying the power would just go away when he died, and that was why Cora wanted to get to him with the dagger first, so the Dark One power wouldn't be wasted.

 

Welcome to Wheel. Of. Retcon!

Edited May 4, 2015 by Souris

[Serena]

I cannot believe how Robin turns on a dime and has no problem whatsoever with the two women who have killed his wife. And nonchallantly agreeing to mindwiping his child? I guess he is Regina's soulmate.

I cannot believe he suggested getting back together with Regina like 2 hours after finding out his wife was brutally murdered. Like, my jaw actually dropped and I was sure Regina was going to punch him in the nose.

[ParadoxLost]

I mean Zelena might not have magic thanks to the cuff. But she's still responsible for indirectly killing Neal, keeping Rumple locked in her cellar, trying to drown Hook, breaking into Regina's office and house, starting a riot on Main Street that resulted in property damage, whatever she did to Belle in the hospital, trying to strangle Henry and kidnapping Snow's baby seconds after she gave birth. Is there a reason why they shouldn't lock her up?

 

She should be locked up.  I think the issue becomes Regina and Rumpel.  Why aren't they locked up?  They have a similar laundry list of crimes.  So maybe they have a really short statute of limitations or wanting to turn a new leaf absolves guilt.  That could explain Regina.  But how is Rumpel having lunch at Granny's?

[Zuleikha]

I wish I had time to go back and watch an old episode, but I'm pretty sure that back when Zelina joined the coven of good witches, they established that her magic was transferred into her green pendant, and that without it she would be powerless.

 

They did. That was the whole resolution of Zelena in 3B. Regina used light magic and got the necklace; Zelena was then powerless and was placed in prison until Rumple killed her. I think what we're supposed to assume is that the necklace gave Zelena one get-out-of-death free card and the green smoke represented her magic and her life. So she doesn't have the augmented magic she got from the necklace, but she does have her run-of-the-mill magic. It would be nice if this was explicitly stated on the show, though, because as it stands it's confusing. Also, it matters if the necklace is intact or not because Zelena will be even more dangerous if she can get her hands back on it.

 

She should be locked up.  I think the issue becomes Regina and Rumpel.  Why aren't they locked up?  They have a similar laundry list of crimes.

 

Zelena is locked up and cuffed because she hasn't even pretended to express repentance. She is actively dangerous. I don't think it's about punishment so much as prevention.

 

Regina was locked up in jail at the start of season 2. She got free because of her magic blast and then was not locked up again because she was too powerful. There was actually a scene where Blue and someone else (probably Charming?) tried to recapture Regina and failed. By the time anyone was in a position to try and recapture her, it didn't make sense to try because Regina had been a solid ally.

 

Rumple is not locked up because he's too powerful. Regina did give Belle the dagger for safekeeping rather than keep it or give it back to Rumple, but well, we all saw what happened with that. 

[Mathius]

Welcome to Wheel. Of. Retcon!

Not quite. His heart dying isn't "dying dying". If Rumple's desperate soul (which is what the Dark One inhabits) left his body, then the Dark One has no host and evaporates. With the heart dying, Rumple's soul would still be in the body, it's just that all human traits, memories and everything that makes him Rumple would be gone forever.

[Rumsy4]

It's rather ill-defined at this point, though. For the record, I don't think the writers are saying that Rumple is "possessed" by some Dark One entity. Rumple was speaking metaphorically. I don't think he meant Rumple would die die. Just that he would lose what was left of his humanity. I suppose he would stop paying lip service to his love for Belle, because I don't see how he could be worse than he is right now. Maybe he'll start killing people left and right, starting with Hook, and ending with Henry.

[Camera One]

Since Regina has officially joined the Heroes Circle, shouldn't Regina have initiated a pow-wow with everyone about how to deal with Rumple potentially being even more evil than he already is?  Not to mention another pow wow about the best way to deal with Zelena?  At the meeting, someone might have mentioned it was not a good idea to let the Author have free access to the ink.  And neither Emma nor Regina considered that Lily in a magical town could be dangerous?  Emma last her interest in finding the Author?  

[KAOS Agent]

 

And neither Emma nor Regina considered that Lily in a magical town could be dangerous?

 

I'm pretty sure that they did, but what could they do about it? Lock Lily up before she committed a crime? Maleficent can't leave Storybrooke or she dies, so they had to bring Lily into town to give her the opportunity to meet her mother. Lily would have been fine had Regina not stolen her blood and basically set her off. No one, including Maleficent, was expecting her to turn into a dragon. 

[Camera One]

I agree there's only so much they could do, but they should have had a line or two about it at the very least, and maybe someone keeping an extra eye on her.  They could at least look for a MacGuffin to take care of a possible eventuality.  Why was it so far out of possibility that she might turn into a dragon?  Her mother is one.  Lily was already sprouting bloody murder before Regina cut her.  What was to stop her from grabbing and gun and shooting Snow and Charming?  Heroes need to be prepared.  Otherwise, they just look like idiots reacting to the inevitable.  They were just lucky that this was a Very Special Episode with a heartwarming chocolate center.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

I think there probably was some discussion about what to do with everyone, but it was cut. We know that they filmed stuff with Zelena arriving in town and saying stuff and Roland was there filming, but none of that made it into the episode. I guess I just kind of cut them slack on that since it most likely was mentioned somewhere in Offscreenville. I'd hope that Emma's call home to tell them they were coming also included a heads up to the Charmings that Lily was not pleased with them. I thought it was incredibly stupid of them to be standing there when Lily arrived. I would also note that they at no point apologized to Lily.

Edited May 5, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Dianthus]

Ok, so maybe it wasn't the smartest thing to do, but...dayum...did I love seeing Hook sass Rumple! Also, too, the way he just shoved the Author aside like he was nothing. Maybe that's why he got that look, all the baddies are kissing his ass, and Hook's like..."Outta my way, Mate." 

[Serena]

Not quite. His heart dying isn't "dying dying". If Rumple's desperate soul (which is what the Dark One inhabits) left his body, then the Dark One has no host and evaporates. With the heart dying, Rumple's soul would still be in the body, it's just that all human traits, memories and everything that makes him Rumple would be gone forever.

Well, this makes sense. But it's not really clearly explained in the show.

[Curio]

Ok, so maybe it wasn't the smartest thing to do, but...dayum...did I love seeing Hook sass Rumple! Also, too, the way he just shoved the Author aside like he was nothing. Maybe that's why he got that look, all the baddies are kissing his ass, and Hook's like..."Outta my way, Mate." 

 

I see a lot of people yelling at Hook for taunting Rumple, but I freaking loved it. Why not have the guy taunt his mortal enemy? At this point, does anyone actually think Rumple would spare Hook if he suddenly started kissing his ass and took the high road by not taunting him? No. Rumple would kill Hook in a heartbeat (well...a cold, dark, coal-ish heartbeat) even if Hook didn't taunt him. And considering how Rumple tried to destroy Emma twice, attempted to crush Hook's heart in front of him, and impersonated him and used his new friendship with Belle against him, Hook has every right to rub it in Rumple's face that his evil plan failed.

 

I think it just displays the power imbalance on the show of people with no magic and people with magic. Hook isn't allowed to taunt Rumple because Rumple is so much more powerful and can destroy Hook with his magic, but Regina is allowed to taunt Rumple because she does have magic?

Edited May 5, 2015 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

I see a lot of people yelling at Hook for taunting Rumple, but I freaking loved it. Why not have the guy taunt his mortal enemy? At this point, does anyone actually think Rumple would spare Hook if he suddenly started kissing his ass and took the high road by not taunting him? No. Rumple would kill Hook in a heartbeat (well...a cold, dark, coal-ish heartbeat) even if Hook didn't taunt him. And considering how Rumple tried to destroy Emma twice, attempted to crush Hook's heart in front of him, and impersonated him and used his new friendship with Belle against him, Hook has every right to rub it in Rumple's face that his evil plan failed.

 

I thought that scene was all kinds of awesome.  

 

4B has been a massive letdown in general but one of my favorite scenes this season was Zelena taunting Rumple to the point where he flat lined.  So when Hook decides to rub Rumple's nose in it?  Just bring it.  Maybe not the smartest move because I'm sure he'll pay for this eventually, but the whole "never is a long time for you" line was pretty awesome.

Edited May 5, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Rumsy4]

I think it just displays the power imbalance on the show of people with no magic and people with magic. Hook isn't allowed to taunt Rumple because Rumple is so much more powerful and can destroy Hook with his magic, but Regina is allowed to taunt Rumple because she does have magic?

 

Exactly. I thought the scene was hilarious.  

[Curio]

I was thinking more about the line Isaac says to Regina about why she's his favorite to write for: "Very clear goals, plus totally damaged personality, with a self-destructive streak? A recipe for compelling." But doesn't that describe a lot of our characters?

 

Rumple—goal: turn Emma dark and get his happy ending; damaged personality: ✓; self-destructive streak: the dude is the Dark One. That's pretty self-destructive.

Hook—goal: make Emma happy; damaged personality: ✓; self-destructive streak: uh, yeah. He's always getting himself into harm's way to the point where it seems suicidal.

Emma—goal: give everyone happy endings; damaged personality: ✓; self-destructive streak: you could say her walls she puts up can be somewhat self-destructive, along with purposely shutting out her parents. 

Charmings—goal: okay...actually, I can see why Isaac wouldn't like writing for them. I never really know what their goals are.

[Shanna Marie]

Maybe Isaac was talking about the time when the book was being written -- the Enchanted Forest phase.

 

Though there we still have clear goals for everyone:

Rumple: get the curse cast so he can find Bae

Regina: destroy Snow's happiness

Hook: kill the Dark One

 

Really, Regina has the fuzziest of goals when you think about it because she didn't have a clear picture of how destroying Snow's happiness would work. Just like her goal of a happy ending was really fuzzy because she didn't seem to have a clear picture of what that meant. In contrast, Hook's goal was extremely precise because he not only wanted to kill Rumple, he specifically wanted to kill him with the hook, and he was far more self-destructive because he was willing -- even eager -- to die as he got his revenge. Regina was unintentionally self-destructive. I'd say that she was never trying to hurt herself. She just always managed to do so because her plans were so stupid. She ruined her own life in getting her revenge, not so much because she was self-destructive as because her revenge tended to backfire and she didn't know when to stop. She was the coyote to Snow's Road Runner, with the anvils falling and hitting her on the head while Snow remained oblivious to most of her dire schemes.

[kili]

Regina wants revenge on her sister and then, no, just kidding, really don't care any more because I'm so happy

 

Regina wanting revenge on her sister is an interesting counterpoint to last year's pentultimate episode. In it, Regina defeats Zelena, but will not allow Rumple to get revenge on Zelena for imprisoning Rumple for a year and for her part in Neal's death. Rumple has identified re-uniiting with Neal as his happy ending for almost 300 years and that happy ending is gone.  Zelena has been made completely powerless (her necklace has been removed) and Regina lectures Rumple about how heros don't kill using magic to stop him from doing so.

 

Fast forward a few months to what is the pentultimate episode of this season and Zelena pretty much finds herself in the same place. She's killed again, but this time it is convenient to Regna (getting rid of a blocking obstacle), but Regina is unhappy because her happy ending (Robin) is a little sullied (Robin himself doesn't seem to be too troubled about the murder of his wife or the raping of himself, but Regina is not pleased). Zelena is once again powerless (a magic denying cuff has been placed on her) and imprisoned. This time, Regina is all for killing Zelena. What happened to "Heros don't kill?" Or does that rule just apply to others?

 

Zelena manages to talk her way out of this deathl, but it was a near thing.

[KAOS Agent]

Regina didn't kill Zelena in "Kansas" because she had the upper hand and Regina likes to lord her power over others. Being able to proclaim that she's a hero for not killing Zelena was the icing on the cake. However, once the helpless Zelena was locked up Regina said, "If I were you I'd consider creating a new destiny. Because if you don't, I'll be right there to take your heart and crush it." That's not a heroic mercy, that's Regina enjoying her win and explicitly saying that if Regina's win was endangered, she'd kill Zelena.

 

In this episode, Regina realized that she has everything she ever wanted and killing Zelena wouldn't change anything. As a bonus, by keeping Zelena alive and locked away, she gets to raise Robin's baby. Once again, Regina wins by allowing Zelena to live. There were possible negative consequences for writing Zelena out of the story, but much more positive possibilities for leaving her exactly where she is for the rest of her life.

Edited May 5, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Zuleikha]

Or for an alternative that doesn't require viewing every single action of Regina's through the worst possible lens, the difference just may have been that in Instance 1: Zelena had been depowered and Regina was giving Zelena the carrot-and-the-stick options. If Zelena took the chance to change, she'd be fine but if Zelena rejected it (which would mean that Zelena chose to be an active dangerous threat against Regina and others), Regina would kill Zelena in order to keep people safe.

 

In Instance 2, Zelena had rejected her second chance, had killed Marian and harmed Robin, Roland, and Regina, was in possession of magic, and demonstrated zero remorse or intention to change. So Regina was threatening to follow through on the stick. While I think it was right for her to once again settle on mercy rather than undoing Zelena's existence, IMHO, Regina should have used the author to take away Zelena's magic since the magic cuff can be removed and prisons can be escaped or opened. I also think she should have written the fetus out of existence unless Robin had expressed a desire otherwise. Mercy doesn't have to be all or nothing. You can extend mercy while also practicing risk reduction!

[kili]

In Instance 2, Zelena had rejected her second chance, had killed Marian and harmed Robin, Roland, and Regina, was in possession of magic, and demonstrated zero remorse or intention to change.

 

I will agree on demonstrating no intention to change, but she was not currently in possession of magic (Regina herself remains upset about losing her magic to the same cuff) and Robin seems relieved that Marian is out of the picture while not being too fussed about having a baby.  We don't know how Roland feels about it and Regina was not harmed other than needing to feel sympathy for Zelena's true victims. Rumple had lost his son forever and been deeply victimized by Zelena, so he had far more of a right to want vengence than Regina did in this instance.

 

I also think she should have written the fetus out of existence unless Robin had expressed a desire otherwise.

 

I think that would be a very good way for A&E to invite an entirely new group of people to send them angry tweets. Forced abortions are the stuff of dystopian nightmares. Having the man make the final call while another man performs the act would be truly tone deaf.

 

Mercy doesn't have to be all or nothing. You can extend mercy while also practicing risk reduction!

 

That would be novel for this show. Regina and Rumple should have had those cuffs crazy glued onto their arms several seasons ago.

 

Where does that cuff come from anyway? Wasn't there only one for the purposes of removing magic? Two were used on the bean stalk to keep the wearer safe, but we were only shown one in Storybrooke that was used to take away magic. The Home Office either re-purposed Cora's cuff or created one like it to make Regina demand it from Hook and put it on herself.  Rumple used that cuff on Pan to prevent him from doing magic, not realizing it did not work on him (Pan created it). Pan put it on Rumple and Rumple was wearing it when he poofed into nothingness. Only the scroll remained. When he comes back out of the tar pit of darkness, he isn't wearing the cuff because he is able to do magic (like re-absorbing Neal).

[KAOS Agent]

Zelena was powerless and locked up both times. She's harmless. Regina telling her to do exactly as Regina wants her to do or else is Regina threatening straight up murder - just as Rumpel killing the powerless Zelena was murder. I find it very telling that it's totally okay to see a powerless Zelena as a threat because she might get her power back somehow, so she gets one chance and then she dies, but Regina gets chance after chance after chance after chance all while retaining incredible amounts of power and remaining a huge potential threat, but she's allowed her slip ups. In the last few months, we've seen Regina plot to kill a woman, enslave a man, steal a heart and plan to murder a helpless pregnant woman. Explain to me why Regina gets to walk around free, but a powerless Zelena needs to die.

[Rumsy4]

I think that would be a very good way for A&E to invite an entirely new group of people to send them angry tweets. Forced abortions are the stuff of dystopian nightmares. Having the man make the final call while another man performs the act would be truly tone deaf.

 

I shudder to think about the possibility. I'm glad they did not go that route! I think there's still a possibility the potential AU scenario will wipe the baby (and Zelena) off the map. 

 

 

Where does that cuff come from anyway? Wasn't there only one for the purposes of removing magic? 

 

Maybe it was brought over by the Second Curse. Everything ends up in Gold's shop, doesn't it? 

[kili]

Maybe it was brought over by the Second Curse. Everything ends up in Gold's shop, doesn't it?

 

But it never made it back to the Enchanted Forrest. It disappeared into thin air like Malcolm. Maybe Malcolm is kicking around somewhere too (maybe even under the floorboards in Gold's shop).

[KingOfHearts]

 

Zelena was powerless and locked up both times. She's harmless.

She might might talk someone to death. She's like the thing that wouldn't shut up. Whine, whine, whine... that's all she does. Kind of think of it, that's what she did when she had magic as well. Get some anti-magic earplugs and she's neutralized. Dr. Whale is about to have the most annoying patient he's ever had.

 

Hate to break it to you Wicked, but your fetus isn't going to save you. Wait for Regina to find a spell that puts it in someone else, then you're dead on the floor. Knowing Regina, she'll turn her into a abstract broom piece to put on the mantle.

Edited May 6, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

Zelena was powerless and locked up both times. She's harmless. Regina telling her to do exactly as Regina wants her to do or else is Regina threatening straight up murder - just as Rumpel killing the powerless Zelena was murder. I find it very telling that it's totally okay to see a powerless Zelena as a threat because she might get her power back somehow, so she gets one chance and then she dies, but Regina gets chance after chance after chance after chance all while retaining incredible amounts of power and remaining a huge potential threat, but she's allowed her slip ups. In the last few months, we've seen Regina plot to kill a woman, enslave a man, steal a heart and plan to murder a helpless pregnant woman. Explain to me why Regina gets to walk around free, but a powerless Zelena needs to die.

This. It actually kind of justifies Zelena's jealousy of Regina, in a weird way...Regina has privelages and lords them over Zelena remorselessly, basically telling Zelena she's going to be locked in a cell forever and have to watch her live a perfect happy life with Robin, Roland, Henry and Zelena's own child, even though she by all accounts should be locked up forever too.

[ParadoxLost]

Zelena was powerless and locked up both times. She's harmless.

 

Zelena isn't harmless.  She is perfectly capable of doing as much damage as any human criminal.  Her powers being gone doesn't equal her not getting locked up because Regina and Rumpel aren't locked up.  I don't think you were saying that, just making a point :)

 

I see this as more akin to a class issue.  Zelena is your run of the mill criminal.  Regina and Rumpel are criminals that are rich, famous, and connected enough that they are able to skirt the law and get away with their crimes.

[Camera One]

So basically Regina's attempt at revenge against Zelena by going into her cell with the fair-weathered author is going to screw everyone over.

[dr pepper]

Maybe I'm not following all the twists and turns of this storyline, but why was Regina able to just get some "dark ink" from Lily as opposed to turning Emma dark?  I thought the whole storyline revolved around Emma venturing to the dark side.

 

Regina realizes that, since Emma's original capacity for evil was transferred to Lily, and Lily's own orphan life had given her similar resentments to Emma's, then Lily has incubated genuine "fallen Savior" style darkness as Emma's alternate. And conveniently, Lily's own redemption arc can start, since Regina has taken that darkeness.

[Zuleikha]

So basically Regina's attempt at revenge against Zelena by going into her cell with the fair-weathered author is going to screw everyone over.

No, the author being indifferent to other people's free will is going to screw everyone over. Regina is responsible for her choices. The author (and Rumple and Zelena) are responsible for theirs.

 

Explain to me why Regina gets to walk around free, but a powerless Zelena needs to die.

Regina has done concrete actions that have been judged by the Storybrooke sheriff as indicating her repentance is sincere. Zelena hasn't even pretended to be remorseful. She is actively malicious. She's also not powerless; her power is contained. But Belle was easily freed from the hospital by Jefferson, and there's no reason to believe that Rumple or someone else couldn't free Zelena. If Zelena's back for season 5, I expect that someone will.

 

Rumple was allowed to go free when he was believed to be genuinely remorseful and no longer an active threat in part because of people's faith in his feelings for Belle. This was a mistake, which IMHO is an argument for keeping a tighter watch on Zelena, not a looser one. If Rumple could be similarly cuffed and rendered harmless, he should be. In fact, I'll add to my list of things Regina should have had the author write that she should have had him write Rumple a happy ending of being freed from the Dark One curse (although I'm skeptical that Isaac would necessarily have written it).

 

I think that would be a very good way for A&E to invite an entirely new group of people to send them angry tweets. Forced abortions are the stuff of dystopian nightmares. Having the man make the final call while another man performs the act would be truly tone deaf.

 

Magically rewriting reality is not the same thing as a forced medical procedure. There is no real world equivalent for how the author could have handled Zelena's fetus, and it's ridiculous to pretend there is. He writes "Zelena reveals that she was lying about being pregnant" and boom, there was never a pregnancy for there to have been an abortion. Unless the show writers decided to establish in canon one way or another, as viewers, we would never even know whether reality changed because of the author since Zelena is a lying liar who lies and her pregnancy hasn't been confirmed objectively. I don't think it was Regina's call to make, but I think Robin should be able to take advantage of the author's power in order to not be forced to raise a child with his rapist/the murderer of his wife.

[Serena]

Magically rewriting reality is not the same thing as a forced medical procedure. There is no real world equivalent for how the author could have handled Zelena's fetus, and it's ridiculous to pretend there is. He writes "Zelena reveals that she was lying about being pregnant" and boom, there was never a pregnancy for there to have been an abortion. Unless the show writers decided to establish in canon one way or another, as viewers, we would never even know whether reality changed because of the author since Zelena is a lying liar who lies and her pregnancy hasn't been confirmed objectively. I don't think it was Regina's call to make, but I think Robin should be able to take advantage of the author's power in order to not be forced to raise a child with his rapist/the murderer of his wife.

I'm sorry, but either Zelena is lying about being pregnant, and then rewriting reality to have her lie about being pregnant is useless, or Zelena is not lying about being pregnant, and thus writing in the book "Zelena reveals she was lying" would for all intents and purposes eliminate the fetus from reality. You may decide not to call it a forced abortion, but then we are going into Scott "my 11 year old knows the difference between rape and fantasy" Nimerfro territory. It would be taking a woman who is pregnant and wants to be and making her NOT be pregnant against her wishes. 

 

Should Zelena have custody of that child? Nope. Don't give unrepentant rapists custody of children! That's a good ground rule to follow. This show never has, though, so it'd be interesting to see if they start with Zelena.