Family Ties: The Good, The Bad And The Ugly

[BookWoman56]

On 2/12/2019 at 2:27 PM, BuyMoreAndSave said:

The thing is that it seems like he only wants kids in theory and not in reality.

It certainly sounds that way, and I've encountered this among both men and women. It's very easy to want kids when you have this romanticized/unrealistic notion that having kids involves little more than decorating a kid's bedroom, being able to give them nice clothes, toys, and so forth. And yes, those things can be fun, but there is a huge amount of work and energy required to raise a child, and large chunks of it are quite messy and unpleasant. I can sympathize somewhat with your husband's view that he has no interest in kids until they're old enough to carry on a conversation, because I have zero use for kids myself until they're at least 3-4 and can at least communicate a bit using words. But in my case, once I decided I wanted a kid, I had to commit to being a good parent prior to that point of child development. 

I am older than dirt, and have seen way too many people fall into the trap of having children that they didn't really want just because of pressure from spouses, family members, or society at large to have a kid. If you know that you don't want to have a child and have decided that you will not do so, I applaud you for having good judgment. It's your choice, and don't let anyone tell you that oh, once you actually have your own baby, it will be different. Yes, it will be different but not in the way they mean;  you'll be responsible for an infant that you didn't want, and there's zero guarantee that your overall feelings about wanting a child will change. I'm not in any way bashing parenthood; children can be a source of tremendous love and personal growth, but they're not for everyone. Nor are they in any way a panacea for a marriage that's on shaky grounds, despite what various stupid movies/books may have suggested in the past. 

In your situation, given that your husband has expressed the desire to have children and you have decided you don't want them, then it's good you are recognizing that the disagreement on this issue may result in the end of the marriage. Good idea for him to try babysitting for a week, although even a weekend might be more than sufficient for him to see what the reality is of having a kid. But if he does that, then don't enable him by taking care of the kid yourself. If he really thinks he can be just a weekend father, then he should have gotten together with someone willing to accept that very inequitable division of parental responsibilities.

For my own situation, thank goodness I'm not dealing with anything more serious right now other than my mother's total inability to use the damn remote for the TV. At least 4-5 times a day, she needs me to come change the channel for her, or set the TV back to where it's getting the signal correctly, because her solution to not getting it correct the first time is to push every damn button on the remote, and she can't read the small print on those buttons anyway. Today she has somehow managed to fuck up the settings in such a way that I haven't been able to restore the signal; I've tried changing the video source using the remote, and for whatever reason, it's not working. So I am going to be tracking down one of those TV remotes for seniors that has only 5-6 buttons and that you can lock the settings, because while I recognize this is not a major problem in the overall scheme of things, it's annoying as hell to have to keep running into her bedroom every time she wants to flip from some home improvement channel to a cooking channel to a home shopping channel. 

Edited February 17, 2019 by BookWoman56

[Sun-Bun]

@hoosier80 I’m so sorry you’re still dealing with your miserable mom. Sounds like she’s squarely around that age when older folks(women especially) choose to wallow in their own bitterness and get especially cranky due to a toxic combination of loneliness, discontentment and the physical pain of aging. It’s a damned shame that she’s obviously turned all her friends against her, because that just means she’ll demand yet more of your attention. And frustrate you repeatedly in the process, as usual.

Dare I ask...does she ever show you any true vulnerability? Is she able to open up and truly discuss her fears and concerns with you as she ages?? Because surely by now she has to realize that her bossing you around and being so demanding of your time/effort isn’t strengthening your relationship and is just pushing you further away.

Just curious, but does she show any signs of dementia? Because that might be part of her more irrational behaviors/demands. Does she have any other plans for her care as she ages beyond just demanding you and your brother take care of her? 

You have my sympathy though. My mom can be equally demanding/annoying/toxic/jealous and plays the pout-game like a pro, and she’d love nothing more than for me to drop my entire life and move back in with her too. In typical Boomer fashion, she’s of that generation that felt that grown children were expected to take care of(more like wait on them constantly) their parents later in life. 

Stay strong and don’t let her take over your mindset though. Just because she’s unhappy and miserable doesn’t mean you have to be. 

[theredhead77]

On 2/18/2019 at 12:28 AM, Sun-Bun said:

Does she have any other plans for her care as she ages beyond just demanding you and your brother take care of her? 

@hoosier80 - have you looked into getting a social worker involved? With her irrational, abusive behavior it may be a way to help you and your brother deal with her as she ages. They can provide access and support that you two can't. Don't talk with her about calling, just call to get information, make a plan with your brother and stick to your guns. Abuse is never OK, at any age.

https://eldercare.acl.gov/Public/Index.aspx

[PRgal]

I started doing "mindful eating" at breakfast about five days a week.  Basically, I say grace.  I mentioned that to my parents and my dad thinks I'm "being overly dramatic."  What is that supposed to mean?  Would he be saying that if I were a man?

[BuyMoreAndSave]

So...it's looking increasingly likely that my brother is going to become homeless sometime in the next year. And will have to move in with us. Into our two-bedroom apartment that already has me, my husband, and my MIL (and parakeet) living in there. Where according to our lease we aren't supposed to have more than three adults living here.

The only place for him to sleep would be the living room couch. I already feel like we are kind of on top of each other here and with an extra person there would be no privacy. I don't really use the couch but my husband uses it every day when he is practicing guitar, praying, unwinding at the end of the day, etc. He also sleeps on it frequently because sometimes we have trouble sleeping in the same bed (snoring, insomnia, etc.) He says he's fine with it but I think it would be difficult.

And yes, my brother does work. In fact he has two jobs and has had three in the past. But apparently that isn't enough when someone is a high school dropout with learning disabilities and mental illness and as the saying goes, "the rent is too damn high." He inherited some money from my grandma several years ago, and has been supplementing his income with that.

Yes he probably could have made some better decisions. He could have found a cheaper place to live although probably the cheaper places to live would have been shitty. My husband and I did that when we first moved in together. The reason why he didn't was because he has a ton of furniture and stuff, also inherited from my grandma and great-uncle, and he didn't want to get rid of it if he had to live in a single room. I think it was a stupid reason (although it is really nice stuff, like solid wood furniture and so on) but it's too late for that now. He has some hoarder tendencies although he's self aware about them, and I'm concerned that if he has to lose a lot of his stuff, the hoarding tendencies will increase. But we definitely don't have room for much more stuff in here. Our apartment is minimalist besides my MIL's bedroom, and pretty much everything we have is stuff we use regularly, or need to have like important document. But it is only 950 square feet and there's only so much floor space. Like I really don't even know how we will have room in our refrigerator for an extra person's stuff because there are three shelves and each of us has one of them.

If he becomes homeless I know for a fact he will kill himself. He is suicidal even on a good day. So it is a life and death issue. Homelessness generally is.

The only other place he has been offered to stay is the spare bedroom at my mom's house. If anyone has read my other posts on here you know that she abused us throughout our childhood (technically she still abuses him to this day although not physically anymore). So that's not really a viable option. He has said that if he lives there she will probably find a reason to kick him out within a month and I'm pretty sure that would happen too.

Our lease is up at the end of April and we have a couple more weeks to decide whether to renew. Technically we could afford a bigger place to live, which would probably be renting a house, and it wouldn't be that much more expensive. But since we have the stupid bird that rules out 95% of places. I tried looking for houses for rent a few weeks ago and all of them said no pets.

My MIL originally moved in with us due to an emergency situation (not financial but disabilities) and she was only supposed to be here until she was mostly independent, which was projected to be under a year. Then she was supposed to move out and go live with one of her relatives in Florida. It's almost two years later and she is mostly independent. Yet she is still here and seemingly has no intention of leaving. My husband won't ask her to leave because he doesn't want her to feel like she's being forced out. BTW she is literally a multi-millionaire and could live pretty much anywhere she wanted, but she is also extremely cheap and willingly chooses to live like she's poor. I haven't told her about my brother's situation yet but I think I will tomorrow.

This has also changed the house situation. Now I have to be ok with living there because it would be a stable situation with a basement for extra space, and it seems likely that if my brother moves in, he would be here for the foreseeable future. I don't see his financial situation really changing unless  there are either major labor reforms, or he gets his GED...not sure which is less likely to happen. My husband is getting the estimate for the repairs next week. He thinks it might take six months to get it repaired, although if we sign the lease at least some of us wouldn't move in until later. It's really going to suck because of the way the house is designed. In the apartment there is a long hallway between the two bedrooms, but in the house they are all right next to each other, so there is even less privacy.

I also feel like my brother is not the easiest person to live with. He's one of those really loud outgoing people who doesn't like to be alone. I feel like he's going to be trying to talk to us all the time and I like silence. And he won't understand and will take it as a personal insult if I ask him to go away. Whenever I stay over at his place we usually end up arguing although I haven't stayed over since he stopped drinking so maybe it might be different now.

On top of that my brother said he's pretty sure my dad has signs of dementia. I don't really see it but my brother spends a lot more time with him since he lives closer. I know my dad is on antidepressants that cause short term memory loss but my brother said this is beyond that. My dad is only 62 but really does not take care of his health at all. He's obese, has high blood pressure, doesn't eat right, has mental illness, most of his teeth rotted, he made many poor life decisions such as staying in abusive relationships, he was homeless for several months, and in general he gets mistaken for someone in their 70s or 80s. I did some reading on it and he might have vascular dementia. I told my brother that my dad has to get tested to see if he has it since there are early interventions. My brother had no idea about these. I know this may sound harsh but if he has dementia, I'm going to stop seeing him. He abandoned me with my abusive mom when I was a teenager and didn't even attempt to get custody, and I'm not going to put myself at risk of having a relapse of my OCD and hypochondria for him.

See, this is why I'm never having kids. I have spent so much time and energy and stress dealing with the dramas of my family who I am NOT legally obligated to, no way am I going to legally put myself in the situation of being obligated to anyone else.

[Kelly]

My BIL  got married about a year ago.  I'm happy for them - they're in their 40's, it's nice they found each other.   I like my new SIL, she is, in general a nice person, but she definitely has a different way of viewing family etc  That being said...their wedding was crazytown.  They did some really strange things - especially with the guest list, and I really think they offended some family.  But fine, it was their wedding and they can do whatever they want.  Cool.  Whatever.

They don't go to anything, don't RSVP to things they are invited to, don't stay in touch with folks in general.  I truly think - you reap what you sow.

A recent example, a baptism a few weekends ago.  And they're all 'hurt and offended' that they didn't receive an invitation.  

It's a little amusing to me...it's like you didn't invite these folks to your wedding, you don't talk to them/stay in touch, but you wanted to be invited to the baptism?  Really?!?  LOL!

[2727]

3 hours ago, Kelly said:

It's a little amusing to me...it's like you didn't invite these folks to your wedding, you don't talk to them/stay in touch, but you wanted to be invited to the baptism?

Right!

I worked for several years in a department with three other people. We shared office space, went out for lunch together most days, socialized outside work, etc.

I was closer to co-workers #1 and #2 and less so with #3. I was 25 years older then her, for one thing. We were always friendly and never clashed even a little.

Fast forward and she's getting married several states away. She invited the other two people in our shared cubicle area, our boss, and another co-worker she was close to. Not me.

Which was fine! She and I had not kept in contact after she quit and I wouldn't have gone anyway.

Last week friends #1 and #2 emailed to say that #3 had just moved about 30 miles away from me. Yesterday I get an email from her, very enthused that she and I live so close now! She wants to drive up to visit this weekend! She can't wait!

I mean, we haven't been in touch for 14 years. What would we talk about now that we don't even have a job in common? She's evolved from the mildly goth, party drug-taking girl I knew to a SAHM who has converted to her husband's religion.

I wrote her back saying no thanks. I tried to be as kind as possible but that's not really something that can be sugar-coated. I didn't lie or make up an excuse. I then heard through friend #1 that my refusal had hurt her feelings.

Sorry not sorry. I am NOT holding a grudge about being excluded from her wedding but do feel like that omission was a clear indication (which I agreed with) about the state of our relationship. Cordial co-workers only. I get that she doesn't know anybody in this state but I also don't understand why she'd assume I of all people would be any kind of lifeline to her.

Edited March 5, 2019 by 2727

[theredhead77]

10 hours ago, 2727 said:

What would we talk about now that we don't even have a job in common? She's evolved from the mildly goth, party drug-taking girl I knew to a SAHM who has converted to her husband's religion.

SNIP

I get that she doesn't know anybody in this state but I also don't understand why she'd assume I of all people would be any kind of lifeline to her.

I'm pulling this out of thin air but it sounds to me you escaped being a captive audience for her latest MLM presentation!

[shapeshifter]

My sister and I are in our 60s. We have never been close. I did not even attend her wedding.
When our father died, my sister swooped in and took over and put our mom in a facility. I was dealing with stage IV cancer, but that wouldn't have mattered.
I have a modest income (about to become even moreso) whereas my parents were upper-middle class, and my sister and her husband have money to burn.
My sister sends money on my birthday (about $100), and I try to reciprocate by sending money to her daughter and grandkids (so it's a wash), which is fine with me.
But then my sister said I shouldn't send them money any more.
Okay.
So, doing what I can, I painted a portrait of her and hung it where our mom can see it.
My sister is visiting my mom now, and we were FaceTiming, and I realized she had never mentioned the portrait, so I asked if it was still there.
My sister said yes, with a low, unenthusiastic tone.
I should have known better after all these years, but I said, "You don't like it," to which she replied, "I hate it."
I said "Oh. Maybe <her daughter/my niece> would like it."
She said, "She hates it too. And <her husband--who is a really sweet guy> said, 'No way are we hanging that thing in our home.'"
Here's the portrait:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1D7lCnx8op5VfH11gMlxUSKQZvbkgLk7Z/view?usp=sharing

[BookWoman56]

@shapeshifter, preferences in art are extremely subjective, so I wouldn’t take it as an insult that your sister doesn’t like the portrait. I think the portrait is a great likeness of your sister, and personally I’d be thrilled if one of my siblings did something similar. You might consider telling your sister that since she and her family obviously don’t want it, after your mother dies, you will reclaim the portrait. Given your sister’s lack of appreciation, I’d be tempted to use it as a dartboard, but that’s just me. Overall, though, even if your sister hated the portrait, she should have acknowledged that it was a significant gesture on your part, which required a lot of time and energy to complete. Anyway, try to focus on the fact that the portrait gives your mother a visual representation of your sister that she otherwise wouldn’t have. 

[KittyMom4]

@shapeshifter, I think its a beautiful portrait! Like @BookWoman56 said though, art is extremely subjective so don't take it too personally. And maybe her son-in-law didn't want the pic because he doesn't want a pick of his MIL hanging in his house, so there's that too. 🙂 

[shapeshifter]

7 minutes ago, GoodieGirl said:

@shapeshifter, I think its a beautiful portrait! Like @BookWoman56 said though, art is extremely subjective so don't take it too personally. And maybe her son-in-law didn't want the pic because he doesn't want a pick of his MIL hanging in his house, so there's that too. 🙂 

It's her husband. Hmmm... 😉

[Bastet]

58 minutes ago, BookWoman56 said:

@shapeshifter, preferences in art are extremely subjective, so I wouldn’t take it as an insult that your sister doesn’t like the portrait.

I third this.  She should have found a nicer way to say it than, basically, "We all hate it," but perhaps not saying anything about it had been her nice way, since it was only once you offered up, based on her unenthusiastic confirmation it was still there, "You don't like it," that she said it.

[Mindthinkr]

@shapeshifter Try not to take it personally. It’s a lovely portrait. 

When my sister was killed a neighbor, who’s an artist, did a portrait of her. Nobody wanted it so I took it. Years later I asked my brother why nobody wanted it. He said because it reminded them of their pain of losing her. Your family might have similar feelings. 

[ratgirlagogo]

Shapeshifter, if all your work is as good as that portrait, I hope you're showing it, or trying to at least.  Because that's a really good piece.

[shapeshifter]

6 hours ago, ratgirlagogo said:

Shapeshifter, if all your work is as good as that portrait, I hope you're showing it, or trying to at least.  Because that's a really good piece.

Thank you, @ratgirlagogo, and others above for your encouragement.
Showing art takes money. Decades ago, one of my most influential teachers frankly shared with us that she just broke even between the cost of supplies and shipping and the amounts received from sales and cash prizes.

But now that I am forced into retirement from my "day" job and too old to be hired in my field, I thought maybe I could make a little money--or at least break even--painting portraits to be heirlooms--which would also be less likely to be tossed in the garbage by future yard sale shoppers who re-purpose frames.

So when my sister rejected my gift, it was mostly a blow to my purpose in life, since rejection by my sister is nothing new.
And so, again, thank you all for your support.

And now for the good news: Yesterday a portrait of my youngest daughter's SO's sister's adorable little daughter arrived at her home, and she sent many virtual hearts, and said she is hanging it now. 
Not surprisingly, her family was so much more fun at Thanksgiving than ours ever was. 😉
 

Edited March 29, 2019 by shapeshifter

[BuyMoreAndSave]

MIL is finally looking for other places to live! Yay!

Except...the situation had to escalate to a point that it should not have escalated to. A week ago I got home at 9:30 PM exhausted after studying since 10:30 AM. Around 1 AM I started doing my nightly kitchen sweep before bed. I saw she had spilled oil on the stove and left it there, which she does all the time. She leaves messes for me to clean up in general. I wiped it up and then I realized that on top of that, she had spilled FISH JUICE all over the stove and burners. It took 20 minutes scrubbing and washing several times with dish soap to get the smell out. I ended up going to bed later than planned since I was so upset and it also caused a fight with my husband.

That was the last straw. This bitch is retired and I'll be damned if I'm going to get home after studying Linux for 10 hours and clean up after her lazy slob ass. I'm not the fucking maid and if she wants me to be, she should pay me. She shouldn't even be living here at this point since she was only supposed to live here on an emergency temporary basis.

My husband and I had to waste several hours having these fucking UN peace talks about how to broach the subject with her because she's soooo fragile and will get high blood pressure/ heart arrythmia/ psychosomatic symptoms if anyone tells her something she doesn't like. I talked to her as calmly and reasonably as possible and she STILL immediately got pissed and did her usual manipulative mind tricks where she tried to act like we had been free to leave or ask her to leave the whole time, so it's not her fault she overstayed her welcome. I'm sure she must have overheard the many arguments my husband and I had about her over the past few months, since we have no privacy with her living here, and still chose to not look for a new place or work on renovating her house or even just learn to clean. She didn't care how much the situation upset me or if it negatively affected our marriage. (In fact she once told me she wished my husband never married me so she would be happy if we divorced.) Now she hasn't talked to me since and hides in her room almost all the time and is acting like she's the victim when she knew all along she was never supposed to live with us permanently or for this long.

Anyway so she's looking for a new place and...so far it looks like she's going to move to another apartment in our building, literally 50 feet away. It's almost hilarious. I was really hoping she would move back to Florida with her other relatives and be someone else's problem. But no, that would be too easy. I just feel bad for the apartment management now that her behaviors of hoarding, inadequate cleaning, letting her pet bird shit on the floor, and burning things on the stove will go unchecked. Also since we just renewed our lease we now have to pay over $4000 extra over the course of the year for a second bedroom we won't even use, so thanks for that parting gift. That plus the damage done to our marriage after literally hundreds of hours of arguments about her impositions on us. And the effect of the added stress on my concentration and productivity.

She will move out in June if all goes well so we can have a brief reprieve before my brother is projected to become homeless and we either have to live with another annoying and difficult relative due to their self-caused problems and further jeopardize our marriage/sanity, or cruelly abandon him to almost certain suicide.

Anyway lesson learned, never let anyone live with you without signing a contract with ground rules and a set time period. Also move away as far from family as you can so they're less likely to ask you for shit.

[BookWoman56]

@BuyMoreAndSave, I completely agree that before allowing a family member (or anyone else) to live with you, you need ground rules and a contract. My brother lived with me for about a year during a transitional period for him, and it was fine; we’d shared an apartment when I was in grad school and knew what to expect. However, I allowed my niece and her BF to live with me without establishing parameters because I mistakenly assumed they were reasonable people, and eventually had to kick them out.   

My mother has been in the hospital for the past few days with an infection that required surgery this morning. The 1st night I went home, and she woke up around 4 am completely disoriented and freaked out because I wasn’t here. So I spent last night here in the hospital room, with the standard interruption every couple of hours to check her vitals. She will be here for a few more days, but starting tonight I will have to sleep at home, or else I will be completely nonproductive. I go back to work on Wednesday, so have to be rested enough for that. 

[BuyMoreAndSave]

54 minutes ago, BookWoman56 said:

@BuyMoreAndSave, I completely agree that before allowing a family member (or anyone else) to live with you, you need ground rules and a contract. My brother lived with me for about a year during a transitional period for him, and it was fine; we’d shared an apartment when I was in grad school and knew what to expect. However, I allowed my niece and her BF to live with me without establishing parameters because I mistakenly assumed they were reasonable people, and eventually had to kick them out.   

My mother has been in the hospital for the past few days with an infection that required surgery this morning. The 1st night I went home, and she woke up around 4 am completely disoriented and freaked out because I wasn’t here. So I spent last night here in the hospital room, with the standard interruption every couple of hours to check her vitals. She will be here for a few more days, but starting tonight I will have to sleep at home, or else I will be completely nonproductive. I go back to work on Wednesday, so have to be rested enough for that. 

Oh no! I hope that your mom gets well soon! Definitely don't feel bad about taking care of yourself as well during this time. You don't want to end up with two people in a bad situation instead of one. She's in good hands with the hospital staff and they will help her if anything happens. I don't know if this would work if she's disoriented, but maybe it would help to leave a card with a message or something so she knows you're still thinking of her and the reason why you're not there if that happens again?

Unfortunately I already knew going into it that my MIL was not a reasonable person, and that my brother is a difficult person as well. But it's looking increasingly likely that he isn't going to be living with us. He hasn't followed any of the ground rules I set for him moving in. I set these rules to make sure that he would add as little stress as possible to our lives and that him living with us would be temporary. Our marriage was already stressed to the breaking point by my MIL and there's no reason why I should have to be punished yet again for someone else's poor life decisions and failure to plan.

I told him he has to be preparing for the GED, and my MIL even offered him free tutoring for the GED, and he hasn't done it at all, not even tried it, not even for an hour. It's unlikely he will be making a higher salary if he doesn't do that, so if he doesn't work towards the GED and he moves in with us, I don't see any evidence he will ever move out.

He can't apply for government aid yet since he's supplementing his income with an inheritance from my grandma and that hasn't run out yet, but I also see no evidence that he has done any research on programs he can apply to when that time comes. I also see no evidence that he has been trying to find a better job or a cheaper place to live.

He also has an alcohol problem and gets belligerent and/or extra depressed when drunk and has even totaled his car and gotten exposed to HIV through unprotected sex while drunk (but none of those were his fault of course! /s) However, he was sober for over a year with only one slip-up. Recently he started arguing with me over some furniture I inherited that I'm planning to give away and tried to guilt trip me into storing it for months until he can afford to pick it up, even though that's the last thing he needs to be concerned with. I told my dad about it and my dad revealed that my brother had started drinking again and that's probably why he was acting like that. He's taking medication that he isn't supposed to drink with, which makes it even worse. There's no way he can live with us if he's drinking again because literally every time I'm around him when he drinks, he starts shit or starts crying and threatening suicide, and I'm not about to sign up for that. Also the fact that he's getting controlling over our possessions when he doesn't even live here, shows he would be even more so if he did live here.

I also told him we are not going to be a storage unit for his huge amount of stuff and that he has to start decluttering now, and as far as I know he hasn't done that either.

I have all this in writing over text and I also plan on recording phone conversations to make it clear that I mentioned these rules several times in case any sort of guilt tripping happens, or in case anyone tries to blame me for his situation.

Also, some of the ways that we're choosing to live will make it unpleasant for him to live with us. That isn't the reason why we've started living that way but it is a good side effect. We're planning to get rid of the home internet when my MIL moves out, to improve productivity and save over $1000 a year. I've also started leaving all the lights off after dark and only keeping nightlights on to improve my insomnia and lower our carbon footprint.

[BookWoman56]

5 hours ago, BuyMoreAndSave said:

There's no way he can live with us if he's drinking again because literally every time I'm around him when he drinks, he starts shit or starts crying and threatening suicide, and I'm not about to sign up for that. Also the fact that he's getting controlling over our possessions when he doesn't even live here, shows he would be even more so if he did live here.

Those are giant red flags that should make you absolutely not allow him to move in with you, unless there is a dramatic improvement between now and when he runs out of his inheritance. As you've said, you've just been through a horrifically stressful experience having your MIL live with you. You don't need any more stressors. And given the stress that experience had on your marriage, you and your husband need some time to be by yourselves and see if your relationship is going to work under normal conditions. As odd as it may sound, often when a couple is going through stress caused by an external source, they become convinced that nothing is wrong with their relationship and everything would be wonderful once that external stress-generating situation is removed. Yet after that happens, it can become obvious that there are issues in your own relationship, quite aside from the former external problems, that need to be addressed. Not to mention that even assuming your marriage is fine as is, you don't want your marriage to be one damn clusterfuck of a situation after another. If your brother refuses to abide by the conditions you've set, then it's just too damn bad. Are you willing to let him hold the rest of your life hostage with the implied threat of suicide? What good does it do to temporarily rescue his life if it means essentially destroying your own life by letting him control it? Yes, I probably come across as cold and harsh here, but if I learned anything from the years of hell being married to someone with some major substance abuse problems and other issues, you can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped with underlying problems and only wants assistance getting out of the consequences of ongoing bad decisions. 

Thanks for the good wishes regarding my mother, who is doing much better post-surgery but still loopy from the pain meds. The night nurse was able to explain to her that I had gone home for the night and would be back the next morning. While she may have a few moments of anxiety, right now she's so drugged up she's barely staying awake for more than a few minutes at a time, and so if she does panic again, at least it'll be short. And yes, absolutely I won't be able to take care of her once she's discharged if I run myself into the ground while she's in the hospital. One of my siblings will be able to come for a week or two to assist after my mother is out of the hospital, which will be a big help. 

[BuyMoreAndSave]

10 minutes ago, BookWoman56 said:

Those are giant red flags that should make you absolutely not allow him to move in with you, unless there is a dramatic improvement between now and when he runs out of his inheritance. As you've said, you've just been through a horrifically stressful experience having your MIL live with you. You don't need any more stressors. And given the stress that experience had on your marriage, you and your husband need some time to be by yourselves and see if your relationship is going to work under normal conditions. As odd as it may sound, often when a couple is going through stress caused by an external source, they become convinced that nothing is wrong with their relationship and everything would be wonderful once that external stress-generating situation is removed. Yet after that happens, it can become obvious that there are issues in your own relationship, quite aside from the former external problems, that need to be addressed. Not to mention that even assuming your marriage is fine as is, you don't want your marriage to be one damn clusterfuck of a situation after another. If your brother refuses to abide by the conditions you've set, then it's just too damn bad. Are you willing to let him hold the rest of your life hostage with the implied threat of suicide? What good does it do to temporarily rescue his life if it means essentially destroying your own life by letting him control it? Yes, I probably come across as cold and harsh here, but if I learned anything from the years of hell being married to someone with some major substance abuse problems and other issues, you can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped with underlying problems and only wants assistance getting out of the consequences of ongoing bad decisions. 

Thanks for the good wishes regarding my mother, who is doing much better post-surgery but still loopy from the pain meds. The night nurse was able to explain to her that I had gone home for the night and would be back the next morning. While she may have a few moments of anxiety, right now she's so drugged up she's barely staying awake for more than a few minutes at a time, and so if she does panic again, at least it'll be short. And yes, absolutely I won't be able to take care of her once she's discharged if I run myself into the ground while she's in the hospital. One of my siblings will be able to come for a week or two to assist after my mother is out of the hospital, which will be a big help. 

I'm really glad to hear your mom is doing better! Also glad to hear that your sibling will be able to help out and it's not all on you. Even though of course it isn't good that she has to be on so much medication, at least it is sort of a blessing in disguise that she doesn't have to suffer as much through the recovery process. I know a lot of times older people can have disturbing hallucinations from infections. It happened to my MIL when she had pneumonia in the hospital.

Thanks for the supportive post. That is my line of thinking too. This may sound bad but I was actually kind of hoping my brother would give me a reason to not let him live with us because I felt like even if he was the easiest person to live with (which would not be the case unless his personality completely changed, because he's one of those people who's very overbearing, talks over you in conversations, hates to be alone, flips out if you disagree with him on even the smallest things, etc.) just the lack of privacy alone would still be a negative. And it didn't take him long to give us several reasons.

I agree it's BS that he's using suicide threats in this way. When he got exposed to HIV as a result of having an unprotected one night stand with a stranger, he held us hostage for three months by saying if he turned out to be HIV positive, he would kill himself. It didn't matter that most people with HIV live normal lives. No, he said nobody would ever be in a relationship with him again (tell that to all the people with HIV in relationships) and so life would not be worth living. For three months he had my entire family stressing out over that shit. And when he turned out not to have HIV there was zero acknowledgement of the amount of stress he caused as a result of his irresponsible actions and overreaction to it. The only feelings that mattered were his, and that's the case in general. He didn't even acknowledge that he caused the situation, instead acting like it was some terrible stroke of fate and "poor me."

He has a lot of problems and I feel bad because I know he would probably be a normal person if not for the abusive background we came from. But there's really nothing I can do about it. I have my own problems from our abusive background that I am working on. I've tried to help him many times with money, resources, support, advice, etc. and it's like a bottomless pit. For example, so many people wish that they could get affordable GED tutoring, and he was offered unlimited FREE GED tutoring by my MIL who has math tutoring experience and a degree in math, and he still wouldn't even try it out for an hour of his life, after I mentioned it several times. At some point you just have to say "I tried."

[hoosier80]

Well, it's been a while since I posted here.  Things have been pretty much the same.  Mom can be in a good mood middle of the day, and then is in a foul mood in the evening.  Sundays are the worst.  She hates being alone, saying that Sundays are for family gatherings.  No one goes there, except me.  She'll say, in front of me, while watching a cooking show on tv, oh that'd be nice if you had people come to your house and visit.  I've said, I'm here.  Oh yeah, you.  Big whoop.

Was there over Easter and it was the longest day and a half ever.  She got so mad at me on Saturday night (she kept dicking around, not wanting to take a shower - I was going to put up her hair for her after).  I said I really just wanted to go to be earlier, since we have to be up at the crack of dawn.  KaBOOM!  Well we have to go early otherwise it'd be too late for us to make dinner!!! We don't have a late mass here! (I go later - when I do go - so a dig at me).  I just said ok well tell me when you need me, I'm going to bed.  Never mind I have to do everything by myself anyhow!!  Then crying and wailing, while I tried to sleep.  Oh she wasn't even going to church.  I said ooooh that'll show me!  And went back to bed.  Yeah, she went to church.  And I was ready.  She'd complained how I do everything but get ready.  This is on the normal go to mass on Saturday (5 pm mass, we have to leave before 4).  We have to get the parking space she wants!!  Honestly, we're the first car there, except for those who are ushers, etc.  Maybe 3 or 4 cars in the entire lot.  So she wants me ready by 2 pm.  It doesn't take me 2 hours to get ready.  I'm usually doing something else that needs done anyhow.

So she did go to Easter mass.  Big shocker.  She was in a good mood, until I left  Then she called me before I got in the door. She timed me.  What took you so long?  Lots of traffic and rain.   Well, it shouldn't have taken that long.  Yeah, I should've taken the autobahn instead of the roads that only let you go 25 to 55 mph (I go through a lot of small towns - no expressway all the way).  

She's been gearing up for a while now to bait me into an argument.  I held out until tonight. I got bad news today that a good friend had a mild stroke.  I was upset.  Didn't even get that out because Mom started in her Greatest Hits again:  all alone, doesn't eat hardly at all (a lie), never thought she'd be treated so badly, she always puts others first, etc.  Then she told me again, how while appliance shopping, brother said oh I'll buy the new item for you for your birthday.  She said no, too expensive.  Oh, I'll make her (me) pay half.  Hadn't even asked me.  It would've been around $275 or more.  I have the funds, but it's just the idea - the audacity.  She then tells him, oh she should pay ALL of it. She doesn't do a damned thing for me, and if she does, all she does is complain.  I had the phone on mute, but it hit me hard.  I was crying, just guttural sobs coming out of me.  She then went onto a rant how brother had been to the dentist, a very sore subject with me, given how she was fine on getting me limited dental care when I was a child, leaving me to get braces as an adult.  It hurts so badly when I go to the dentist (bad case of TMJ, where I end up crying in the chair) that I put it off.  Yes, I need to go, but my decision, none of her business.  You need to go, don't end up like me (false teeth).  By the time she was my age, she had crowns, partials, you name it.  I do not.  

She kept ranting and I put the phone down, still on mute.  She went in again on how I'd bought a two story home, it'd be difficult when I got older with the stairs (she's assuming I'll stay here forever - like I can't find someplace else if it gets difficult).  Then she said well too bad when you get older, no one will be around, no one will care.   She made another dig about how SHE got her work done first then she would do fun things (my being online is frivolous, even if I'm reading news stories).  I'm basically just worthless and lazy to her.  She's said before I'm just evil. 

Another point of contention was my phone - an iPhone.  I'd gotten her one plus an Amazon tablet.  Those were returned to me because they didn't work.  All righty.  She wants something totally programmed.  Now, brother took back TWO smartphones he got her, as they didn't work either.  Then she said oh I saw something on tv that looked easier.  An IPAD.  I didn't bother to tell her, it's an iPhone but larger.  Same thing.  She wants to hit a button and not search.  She's got two "Alexis" (that's what she calls it - or Alice or Alyssa) devices, still in the box.  I asked what do you want to use them for, as I have to set up the devices?  Don't know, but they showed a lot on tv.  Ok.  Where do you want to put it?  Don't know.  Oh, too busy now.  Of course, now complaining that there they sit in a box - I should've known what to do.  I do know how to set them up, but you need to tell me what you want - music?  She has a Bose sound system, so probably not.  News? Weather?  What exactly?  She cannot hear; one Amazon tablet had Alexa built in, and she said it wasn't clear enough for her to hear.   But it's my fault.  Everything is my fault:   crappy weather, her lack of dexterity, her toilet not flushing (I got a call yelling at me for that), her incontinence, lack of "good" tv shows, even fashions or programs on shopping channels.  Yep, I'm the whipping post.

Then she said something and repeated it saying WELL ARE YOU THERE, ARE YOU GOING TO TALK - really yelling.  At that point, I snapped.  I said why would I talk when all you do is yell at me all the time.  I really wish I were dead right now so I wouldn't have to deal with all of this crap.  Then I hung up.  As I said the words, I wanted to pull them back in, because I knew she was baiting me.  It's like if she's miserable, she wants me to be miserable.  Dammit.  

Extremely doubtful I'll be going there for Mother's Day.  

Thanks for letting me vent.  On the upside, I got a reading earlier this week - tarot - yeah, I know, I know.  It was extremely positive, saying I would meet my soulmate within 5 years, someone who had my back, someone whom would make my life more complete.  Yeah I just about cried.  Not everyone got great readings, so it wasn't a group - everything's sunny reading.  Here's hoping.  If not, that then the lottery.  LOL.

[walnutqueen]

33 minutes ago, hoosier80 said:

Well, it's been a while since I posted here.  Things have been pretty much the same.  Mom can be in a good mood middle of the day, and then is in a foul mood in the evening.  Sundays are the worst.  She hates being alone, saying that Sundays are for family gatherings.  No one goes there, except me.  She'll say, in front of me, while watching a cooking show on tv, oh that'd be nice if you had people come to your house and visit.  I've said, I'm here.  Oh yeah, you.  Big whoop.

Was there over Easter and it was the longest day and a half ever.  She got so mad at me on Saturday night (she kept dicking around, not wanting to take a shower - I was going to put up her hair for her after).  I said I really just wanted to go to be earlier, since we have to be up at the crack of dawn.  KaBOOM!  Well we have to go early otherwise it'd be too late for us to make dinner!!! We don't have a late mass here! (I go later - when I do go - so a dig at me).  I just said ok well tell me when you need me, I'm going to bed.  Never mind I have to do everything by myself anyhow!!  Then crying and wailing, while I tried to sleep.  Oh she wasn't even going to church.  I said ooooh that'll show me!  And went back to bed.  Yeah, she went to church.  And I was ready.  She'd complained how I do everything but get ready.  This is on the normal go to mass on Saturday (5 pm mass, we have to leave before 4).  We have to get the parking space she wants!!  Honestly, we're the first car there, except for those who are ushers, etc.  Maybe 3 or 4 cars in the entire lot.  So she wants me ready by 2 pm.  It doesn't take me 2 hours to get ready.  I'm usually doing something else that needs done anyhow.

So she did go to Easter mass.  Big shocker.  She was in a good mood, until I left  Then she called me before I got in the door. She timed me.  What took you so long?  Lots of traffic and rain.   Well, it shouldn't have taken that long.  Yeah, I should've taken the autobahn instead of the roads that only let you go 25 to 55 mph (I go through a lot of small towns - no expressway all the way).  

She's been gearing up for a while now to bait me into an argument.  I held out until tonight. I got bad news today that a good friend had a mild stroke.  I was upset.  Didn't even get that out because Mom started in her Greatest Hits again:  all alone, doesn't eat hardly at all (a lie), never thought she'd be treated so badly, she always puts others first, etc.  Then she told me again, how while appliance shopping, brother said oh I'll buy the new item for you for your birthday.  She said no, too expensive.  Oh, I'll make her (me) pay half.  Hadn't even asked me.  It would've been around $275 or more.  I have the funds, but it's just the idea - the audacity.  She then tells him, oh she should pay ALL of it. She doesn't do a damned thing for me, and if she does, all she does is complain.  I had the phone on mute, but it hit me hard.  I was crying, just guttural sobs coming out of me.  She then went onto a rant how brother had been to the dentist, a very sore subject with me, given how she was fine on getting me limited dental care when I was a child, leaving me to get braces as an adult.  It hurts so badly when I go to the dentist (bad case of TMJ, where I end up crying in the chair) that I put it off.  Yes, I need to go, but my decision, none of her business.  You need to go, don't end up like me (false teeth).  By the time she was my age, she had crowns, partials, you name it.  I do not.  

She kept ranting and I put the phone down, still on mute.  She went in again on how I'd bought a two story home, it'd be difficult when I got older with the stairs (she's assuming I'll stay here forever - like I can't find someplace else if it gets difficult).  Then she said well too bad when you get older, no one will be around, no one will care.   She made another dig about how SHE got her work done first then she would do fun things (my being online is frivolous, even if I'm reading news stories).  I'm basically just worthless and lazy to her.  She's said before I'm just evil. 

Another point of contention was my phone - an iPhone.  I'd gotten her one plus an Amazon tablet.  Those were returned to me because they didn't work.  All righty.  She wants something totally programmed.  Now, brother took back TWO smartphones he got her, as they didn't work either.  Then she said oh I saw something on tv that looked easier.  An IPAD.  I didn't bother to tell her, it's an iPhone but larger.  Same thing.  She wants to hit a button and not search.  She's got two "Alexis" (that's what she calls it - or Alice or Alyssa) devices, still in the box.  I asked what do you want to use them for, as I have to set up the devices?  Don't know, but they showed a lot on tv.  Ok.  Where do you want to put it?  Don't know.  Oh, too busy now.  Of course, now complaining that there they sit in a box - I should've known what to do.  I do know how to set them up, but you need to tell me what you want - music?  She has a Bose sound system, so probably not.  News? Weather?  What exactly?  She cannot hear; one Amazon tablet had Alexa built in, and she said it wasn't clear enough for her to hear.   But it's my fault.  Everything is my fault:   crappy weather, her lack of dexterity, her toilet not flushing (I got a call yelling at me for that), her incontinence, lack of "good" tv shows, even fashions or programs on shopping channels.  Yep, I'm the whipping post.

Then she said something and repeated it saying WELL ARE YOU THERE, ARE YOU GOING TO TALK - really yelling.  At that point, I snapped.  I said why would I talk when all you do is yell at me all the time.  I really wish I were dead right now so I wouldn't have to deal with all of this crap.  Then I hung up.  As I said the words, I wanted to pull them back in, because I knew she was baiting me.  It's like if she's miserable, she wants me to be miserable.  Dammit.  

Extremely doubtful I'll be going there for Mother's Day.  

Thanks for letting me vent.  On the upside, I got a reading earlier this week - tarot - yeah, I know, I know.  It was extremely positive, saying I would meet my soulmate within 5 years, someone who had my back, someone whom would make my life more complete.  Yeah I just about cried.  Not everyone got great readings, so it wasn't a group - everything's sunny reading.  Here's hoping.  If not, that then the lottery.  LOL.

I would surrogate the  shit out of being the loving Mum you deserve ...

If only ...

[emma675]

hoosier80, I'll just come out and say it, it's time to cut her out of your life. Maybe not forever but at least for now. She sounds like a narcissistic, soul sucking harpy who doesn't care who she hurts. She's determined to make everyone as miserable as she is but you have the choice not to let her and I think you need to take it. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by emma675d

[AgentRXS]

@hoosier80 I'm just going to leave this here:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-its-like-to-break-up-with-your-narcissistic-parent_n_5a1f1d16e4b037b8ea1f3f0f

Also, there are are support groups out there for daughters of narcissistic mothers, if you're interested in that. It may help to just vent with others that have had similar childhoods/experiences. 

[PRgal]

My mother is over-shopping for my son.  It seems like EVERY DAY, I get something from Amazon!  And I never know what's coming.  The kid's nearly seven months and is growing like a weed.  I get that he's outgrowing his clothes very quickly.  I see it.  But I want to be the one buying clothes and toys for him.  The little guy already has TONS OF STUFF!  Shouldn't she be ASKING ME before buying?  I was already not too pleased that she got him a teething toy with the word "Hunk" on it.  I'm not big on that sort of thing (I think the female equivalent says "Babe").   Though I'm wondering if she (despite being extremely fluent in English (educated by nuns in Hong Kong)) doesn't really realize what it means.   

[BookWoman56]

@PRgal, maybe your mother is just so excited about your son that she can't resist buying stuff, but I agree that she should at least be asking your preferences before buying a boatload of clothes and toys for him. Probably the overkill on clothes and toys will end around his first birthday or so, and after that, she may go OTT only for holidays or other celebrations. 

My mother had been in the hospital for about 10 days and finally got out today. She had an incredibly minor cut to her thumb (from slicing a tomato) which got infected and messed up her entire hand and part of her forearm. Luckily no permanent damage, but she will need extra assistance for the next few weeks. My younger sister is here for this week to help and there's supposed to be home health care starting day after tomorrow. All I know is that I need a day where I'm not running to the hospital several times, running to the store, etc., in addition to my day job. I know the situation will get better eventually, but I'm really looking forward to my solo vacation in a couple of months. 

[shapeshifter]

On May 7, 2019 at 3:42 PM, PRgal said:

My mother is over-shopping for my son. 

Maybe she can afford it now and couldn't when you were a baby? 
When my oldest daughter was a toddler, we met my uncle's second wife. They had married after both being divorced and having children, and they weren't having any together, so she started ordering stuff from TV shopping shows and sending them for my daughter. As a single mom, I appreciated it, but we had a tiny apartment and she sent big things like a rocking horse, so eventually I had to say, please, no more big stuff.
It turned out she was a shopaholic.
A few years later they divorced, and my uncle married wife number 3, with whom he just celebrated his 20-something anniversary.

[Bastet]

On 5/7/2019 at 1:42 PM, PRgal said:

My mother is over-shopping for my son.  It seems like EVERY DAY, I get something from Amazon!  And I never know what's coming.  The kid's nearly seven months and is growing like a weed.  I get that he's outgrowing his clothes very quickly.  I see it.  But I want to be the one buying clothes and toys for him.  The little guy already has TONS OF STUFF!  Shouldn't she be ASKING ME before buying?

I don't know.  Something she knows or should know you might not want him to have, something big, or something you may be buying yourself, yeah, she should check in with you.  But general spoiling by grandma?  That may just come with the territory (and may very well taper off as the newness wears off).  You can definitely ask her not to send so much, as he has plenty and outgrows things quickly, so you don't want an overabundance of things for each short phase of his life.  And tell her when she sends something you find objectionable that you appreciate the thought, but X isn't the sort of thing you want him wearing, playing with, reading (when the time comes), etc.  But I think at some point you have to just start donating the excess, if Grandma is just going to do what Grandma is going to do.

[VioletNevermind]

Hi, everyone.  You all were so kind to me and had such great advice back in December when I posted about my 18-year-old daughter's struggles and her leaving home: 

I thought I would return to the well, so to speak, and see if anyone has any words of wisdom.  She ended up running off to TN with her boyfriend of less than a week, but now she's back.  She moved back in with her father and things have been rocky between us, to say the least.  She seems to be doing anything and everything she can to make me feel bad.  I'll be honest: I'm not dealing with it well and to make matters worse, I'm having to say goodbye to my very sick 12-year-old cat, Snowflake, tomorrow morning.  I'm not accustomed to being so needy; I'm usually the one offering the guidance, so this is a strange place for me.  Almost every single aspect of my life (daughter leaving, cat dying, moving to new house) has changed in the space of six months and it's been very difficult to deal with.

My daughter has completely rejected the path I painstakingly laid out for her: good school, stable home life (as a single mom), college, job.  I've come around to the notion that this is her life and she has to make her own choices.  She's moved in with her father, who lets her do anything she wants to do with whomever.  I know she's 18, but she's shoplifting with these friends, skipping work, spending all of her (very limited!) money, doing drugs, drinking to excess, and hanging out in the middle of the night in locked parks, etc.  The two of them have effectively marginalized me.  I've been treated like a pesky nuisance by both of them for the last two years while I attempted to enforce rules and it's even worse now, minus the rules.  I'm in therapy.  My therapist has told me to start "creating a life for myself, focus on my own needs, etc.," but that is much easier said than done.  Does anyone have any ideas about HOW I can do that (money is limited)?  I base my entire day on whether she responds to my texts- and forget about calling.  Her father has always disparaged me to her; nothing has changed.

Having my daughter move out and losing my beloved cat in the space of six months is unspeakably difficult.  I have never felt so alone in my life.  I don't know how the hell I'm going to get through this vet appointment in the morning and how the HELL I'm going to live without my beautiful cat.  When my daughter left the way she did, I thought, "Well, at least I have Snowflake in the house."  Now I won't even have her.  She won't be suffering anymore and that's what's most important to me, but it's still beyond rough.  I know I'll figure this all out in time, but for now, WOW, is it hard.  Any words of wisdom about both daughter and kitty are welcome.  

Thank you all for "listening."  Once again, this is the best forum on the Internet-- and not just for the TV snark!

[emma675]

Aw, Suzy Rhapsody, I'm so sorry! It is never easy to say goodbye to your beloved pet, no matter how much it may be helping ease their pain. 

I don't have kids, so take my advice with a grain of salt, but give that girl and her father an ultimatum. You are done with their shit; you are always open to her coming back if and when she cleans up her act and starts treating you with the respect you deserve, but that door is closed until she straightens up; you love her and want the best for her, but she's acting like a spoiled brat and she knows she is pushing your buttons. Stop waiting and responding to her calls and texts, law down the ground rules and walk away. Don't check in on her, don't go to her father to ask how it's going, don't have any proactive contact with her. She created this mess, she can live with it until she's grown up enough to realize what a mistake SHE has made. You've done everything and then some, it's time to concentrate on yourself and your happiness.

Maybe you could volunteer at an animal shelter once you've recovered a bit from losing your kitty? It might help take your mind off of things and give you something fun to do.

Edited May 17, 2019 by emma675d

[Mindthinkr]

@Suzy Rhapsody I’m so sorry to hear that you are having all these rough patches. First you have my sympathy about Snowflake and purrs from the Mindthinkr kitties. It’s never easy to lose a loved pet. They are often our source of unconditional love. 

I agree with your therapist about putting yourself first and begin building a new life. It’s never easy for any of us, but it can be done. You can get a part time job, volunteer, or find some type of coursework that you’d like to study. History, music or art...it doesn’t matter. The thing is you will meet people with similar interests. Ask your therapist if there’s a local support group that you can join. I urge you to keep a journal. Write down your frustrations, thoughts and try to find something, even if it’s very small, for you to be grateful for each day. 

  Try your local library and see if you can find a book on tough love. Right now your daughter doesn’t sound interested in doing the right things and progressing gracefully into adulthood. It’s a shame that her father enables her bad behavior. You need to draw firm lines about what you will and will not tolerate. It may take years for her to smarten up, but you will have her respect by not giving in and standing your ground. There might even be a small chance that she will never come around to living a good life. If you become stronger and have your own life it won’t sting as much if she does. I honestly wish I had better advice. 

My heart goes out to you. Be well and take care of yourself. 

[Browncoat]

@Suzy Rhapsody, I'll second the suggestion of volunteering at a local shelter.  The ones around here always need kitty cuddlers and dog walkers.  And you might meet some interesting people, too.

[AgentRXS]

Adding my voice to those advocating for you to volunteer at the shelter. Every shelter is in the throes of kitten season---if you are wanting to feel needed, those little buggers need YOU! As soon as you walk in the door, you'll find a bunch of them wanting to play or just be held. Shelters desperately need kitten fosters at this time of year. Of course, you'll want to take time before  adopting, but fostering those babies will bring joy and laughs and you'll feel good about getting them big enough to get adopted to a forever home. The shelter covers all medical expenses for the kittens, and most start you off with some food supplies. Who knows?Maybe after awhile, you'll foster fail.  If kittens are too much for you, there are plenty of senior cats that get overlooked at the shelter who are yearning for a chin or ear scratch.

As for your daughter, I agree that its time to go No Contact.  Don't say a word to either of them, just completely go No Contact with no explanation. It will be the most difficult thing you've ever done, but you have to give her a chance to realize what she's missing out on without you in her life. Even if she does text you first, give her minimal responses "I'm fine/ok", until she really comes around to having an open conversation with you. And she will, but it won't happen right now. Give her a couple years to sow her wild oats and she'll be back.

[Bastet]

@Suzy Rhapsody, your posts continue to break my heart.  You worked so hard and deliberately focused on providing your daughter with better options, and she opts to toss herself in the gutter in spite of it all - and her father enables her.  It's undoubtedly terrifying for you to wonder how much she can screw up her life before seeing reason - if she ever does; there remains the possibility she digs herself an insurmountable hole.  Where to draw the line on contact and help with such an adult child isn't clear on paper, let alone within the reality of this is my only child, what do I do?! concern.

Most immediately, I extend my condolences on the impending loss of Snowflake.  Pets are part of the family, and the unconditional love they provide can become even more potent in the face of our human family members letting us down.  Being adorable, loving creatures in our homes (meaning physically and emotionally central to our daily lives) is no small thing, and I wish you had someone to be with you for the process - so generous of you, yet so hard for you - of letting her go.  Please give yourself the time and space to mourn this as a discrete loss; even if the rest of your life was perfect, this would suck, so don't diminish it because other aspects of your life also blow chunks right now.

While it's much easier said than done, I think your therapist is right in counseling you to focus on your own life.  While her brain is not fully formed, your daughter is legally an adult.  You have no control over her actions, and no partner to help you in guiding her.  You have to remain a resource in the big picture, but remove yourself from the day-to-day.  The only thing you can control is your own life.  So try to think about what makes you happy in the midst of this shit, and then hone in on easy (low-cost, low-involvement) ways to indulge that, on a day-to-day and then week-to-week basis, further narrowing your scope based on what you find brings you fulfillment and pleasure without breaking the bank or unreasonably inconveniencing you. 

It will flow from there; you'll meet new people, you'll expand or alter your interests, etc.  You'll have a life that doesn't revolve around whether or not your daughter texts.  You'll be ready to jump back in with any help you can provide if/when she opts to work towards getting her shit together.  But until then - or, tragically, if never - you'll have your own life.  You'll know you did the best you could.

My heart goes out to you.  There is not a single easy answer, or even a general philosophy that is easy to implement; you're in a tough spot, full stop.  But your daughter and her dad continue to whittle your options down to one; make the best of that you can for yourself, and be ready to pounce back on the situation if/when reality starts to penetrate her mind.

Edited May 18, 2019 by Bastet

[shapeshifter]

14 hours ago, Suzy Rhapsody said:

thought I would return to the well, so to speak, and see if anyone has any words of wisdom. 

I too was a single parent and now have 3 adult daughters, who have achieved varying degrees of success. One was always difficult and now, at almost 36, she is temporarily homeless (but won't leave her beloved NYC).

So I have been reflecting on "where I/we went wrong" and did have a minor epiphany which might help you now: If my ex and I could have communicated better when she was your daughter's age, he probably would not have enabled her poor choices.

But that's a really big "if."

And, anyway, other influences would have still been there to ensnare her, with her vulnerable nature.

There is a limit to parental influence.

14 hours ago, Suzy Rhapsody said:

I'm not accustomed to being so needy; I'm usually the one offering the guidance, so this is a strange place for me

You will get back to this place; it is who you are.

[VioletNevermind]

Thank you, everyone, for your kind words and guidance.  Snowflake went to the rainbow bridge yesterday and I’m both unspeakably sad and grateful that she’s no longer suffering.  It would have been too easy to keep her here to provide comfort for me in my empty nest, but no.  She had had enough and life was no longer comfortable for her.  It will take a good while for this to no longer feel so devastating.  In the meantime, I’m just going to try to keep busy and leave the house every once in a while to join the living!  (I also love your suggestions to volunteer at a shelter.  I plan to do that -and donate my kitty supplies- when I can look at a cat without bursting into tears!)

As for my daughter, I’m not really sure what to think anymore.  I reached out to her a few days ago and offered to pick her up on Friday to spend a last bit of time with Snowflake, thinking that it would be a good way for us to connect and provide the kitty with a last little thrill.  She declined, claiming that it was “too sad,“ but I suspect that she just didn’t want to leave her boyfriend’s house.  Fair enough; I let it go.  I suggested that we spend some time together either last night after her work day or today if she didn’t have to work.  She agreed, but has effectively “ghosted” me since then.  She got off work last night and didn’t get in touch and she’s working today.  My text of “Hey, what are you up to?” on Friday night went unanswered and we haven’t spoken since.  Once again, I’m treated like an annoying little chore, something that has to be “dealt with” and avoided, if possible.  

I realize that my daughter is 18 and is not my friend.  She is immature for her age and has always been a bit behind in terms of her emotional development.  The hardest part of being a mother is letting them go, but it’s doubly hard when they marginalize you and completely disregard your feelings.  I know that her father has worked overtime poisoning the well, just has he did when she was little and I was busting my ass to raise her on a shoestring budget, with zero help beyond the child support that I had to wrestle from him legally.  I know she’s living with him because he has no expectations for her and doesn’t care what she does.  I just wish she wouldn’t ignore me like this.  It’s like some kind of sick “payback” for the consequences I imposed on her for her grades and the (very basic) expectations I had for her if she was to continue living in my home.  I was the parent and her father was the playmate.  We used to be so close.  People used to call us the Gilmore girls.  She has a boyfriend who frequently ignores her and she went out of her way to tell me last week that she goes to her father for advice about it all the time.  I told her that I wanted her to know that she could come to me if she needed guidance, and that I was not interested in criticizing her choices, etc.  She responded almost professionally: “Thank you, if I need your advice, I’ll ask for it.”  Yikes.  This is the same daughter who called me in tears two days after moving in with her father to say that he had done nothing to make her feel welcome and she didn’t even eat meals with him.  That was not surprising to me in the slightest.

At the end of the day, they’re not turning me into a doormat.  I’m doing a pretty good job of that, myself.  That being said, I have one question: Would you just wait for her to get in touch or ask her point-blank why she completely disregarded our plans to spend time together?

@Mindthinkr, you suggested I keep a journal (a very good idea!).  I do: https://themightysuzyrhapsody.com/  If anyone is interested . . . ☺️

Edited May 19, 2019 by Suzy Rhapsody

[Rose Quartz]

2 hours ago, Suzy Rhapsody said:

At the end of the day, they’re not turning me into a doormat.  I’m doing a pretty good job of that, myself.  That being said, I have one question: Would you just wait for her to get in touch or ask her point-blank why she completely disregard our plans to spend time together?

Ignore her and wait for her to get in touch with you.  I know that'll be extremely difficult for you, but from everything you've written it seems that she really knows how to push your buttons and this is one way for her to do that.  She knows it hurts you when she ignores you so she's trying to force you to reach out to her so she can start the cycle over again.

I'm sorry to be so blunt, but my mother was emotionally manipulative and I'm seeing some of the same behaviors here.  In my case my mother would deliberately not do things that I'd asked her to do, would wait until I blew up, and then after we fought she'd do them in just a couple of hours.  It took me a really long time to realize that there was nothing preventing her from actually doing things, she just did that to upset me.  Unfortunately, with your daughter's comments about going to her father for advice instead of you, I see a similar pattern here.

Sincere condolences on the loss of Snowflake.

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, Suzy Rhapsody said:

That being said, I have one question: Would you just wait for her to get in touch or ask her point-blank why she completely disregard our plans to spend time together?

Wait; you chasing after her just feeds her narrative (which gets endorsed by her father).  I know it's a lot different to draw a line in the sand with a child - meaning both as opposed to a fully-grown adult who is more cognizant of what she is doing and as opposed to someone of a different relation to you - but you're going to have to.  For the sake of both of you, if that helps; it's not just about what's best for you (which you do need to emphasize), but also what's best for her in the long run (which, of course, will always be a concern even when not the number one priority).

2 hours ago, Suzy Rhapsody said:

We used to be so close.  People used to call us the Gilmore girls.

This may not be an entirely good thing (I never watched the show, but I know the fundamentals of the mother-daughter relationship).  There's very little between two people that is 100% one person's fault, and I'm obviously only hearing your side, but I feel confident the majority of this is on your daughter.  However, you can still use this period to not only focus on your other (than her) interests, but to also look back with the critical eye only hindsight can provide and determine where you'll do things differently with her going forward.

My condolences on the death of Snowflake, with my simultaneous nod of empathetic kudos for doing what's right for her despite the drawbacks for you.  I know how brutal the empty house is, and, while you are a name on my monitor, you are truly in my thoughts.  I love that you're inclined to offer your time and love at a shelter when you're emotionally ready, especially if you'll be concentrating on cats -- all homeless pets need all the help they can get, but shelters generally get far more people wanting to socialize the dogs than the cats.  If, when you are able, you offer your time to the feline residents of your local shelter, you will help them so much.  And help yourself, too.

[VioletNevermind]

7 hours ago, Bastet said:

This may not be an entirely good thing (I never watched the show, but I know the fundamentals of the mother-daughter relationship).  There's very little between two people that is 100% one person's fault, and I'm obviously only hearing your side, but I feel confident the majority of this is on your daughter.  However, you can still use this period to not only focus on your other (than her) interests, but to also look back with the critical eye only hindsight can provide and determine where you'll do things differently with her going forward.

Yeah, sometimes I wonder if that Gilmore Girls comparison was always a great thing.  I watched the show religiously and they definitely had their share of mother-daughter relationship drama.  I can absolutely own up to my share of it.  I shouldn’t have criticized her poor decisions so much and I probably shouldn’t have placed so much emphasis on her attending college, etc.  My dreams and plans for her and her laziness and apathy really didn’t mix well.  I cared, plain and simple.  Probably a little too much if I’m honest.

*sigh*

[MargeGunderson]

11 hours ago, Suzy Rhapsody said:

Yeah, sometimes I wonder if that Gilmore Girls comparison was always a great thing.  I watched the show religiously and they definitely had their share of mother-daughter relationship drama.  I can absolutely own up to my share of it.  I shouldn’t have criticized her poor decisions so much and I probably shouldn’t have placed so much emphasis on her attending college, etc.  My dreams and plans for her and her laziness and apathy really didn’t mix well.  I cared, plain and simple.  Probably a little too much if I’m honest.

*sigh*

@Suzy Rhapsody, I'm sorry about the loss of your special cat. It's such a hard decision, but it carries the utmost love and compassion.   

[PRgal]

@Suzy Rhapsody: So sorry to hear about your loss. 😞  I, too, think you need to stop all communication with your daughter.  Speaking to her will only entice her more.  And stopping, no matter how hard it is for you at first, will be good for YOUR mental well-being.  Clear your head a bit.  I'm A LOT older than your daughter (I guess I'm old enough to be her mom if I had a child while I was in undergrad),  and while I don't have a teenaged child (he's only 7 months!), if my son were ever to rebel like that (and after I've tried my best to help him), I would purposely cut ties with him so he has to find his own way back to "reality."  Parents aren't ATMs to adult kids and they need to figure out how to be responsible.  

[palmaire]

@Suzy Rhapsody, I'm so sorry for what you're going through.

I'm not sure if this helps, but perhaps as a cautionary tale? The retirement community where I live has a local online news site that publishes all arrests from the police blotter, and adult children of the residents show up on a regular basis. Typically these are people in their 30s-40s living with their parents and in trouble for drugs, shoplifting/theft, drunk driving, or even battery against their parents.

I can't imagine the anguish of parents who have to choose between cutting their children out of their lives and perhaps allowing them to be homeless vs letting a troubled person continue to disrupt their lives into their 70s.

It sounds like you're already navigating the difficult line of letting your daughter know you're there for her emotional well being but still keeping your rules in place wrt to the behavior your expect from her. 

[AgentRXS]

1 hour ago, palmaire said:

I'm not sure if this helps, but perhaps as a cautionary tale? The retirement community where I live has a local online news site that publishes all arrests from the police blotter, and adult children of the residents show up on a regular basis. Typically these are people in their 30s-40s living with their parents and in trouble for drugs, shoplifting/theft, drunk driving, or even battery against their parents.

This is my grandmother's current situation except my grandmother is 92 and my mother is 58. My mother has been a constant user and manipulator her whole life and my grandmother is the only one in my family who has contact with her. My mother showed up at my grandmother's senior living facility a week ago where she is there on a 2-week stay because she has nowhere to go (never held down a job for long, never stays in one place very long). I have no doubt my mother is depleting what little funds my grandmother has, but I had to wash my hands of the situation because there is nothing I can do. My grandmother won't turn her back on her, and doesn't care that she is just going to take all her money and go.

@Suzy Rhapsody Use my grandmother as a cautionary tale. If your daughter ends up being like my mother and creates a purposely shitty life for herself, you don't want to the be that old lady in the senior living facility with your troublesome daughter showing up to take your money and ruin your peace. My grandmother has a pretty happy life for herself when my mother isn't around. She hates that my mother uses her for money and will create a scene if she doesn't get what she wants, but she takes all the embarrassment, financial turmoil, and stress because it is her daughter. My grandmother doesn't deserve that and neither do you. I'm sincerely hoping your daughter changes her ways as she gets older, but if she doesn't, I do hope you'll know when its time to walk away for your own sanity and are able to do that. I walk away from my mother in 2002 (almost as soon as I turned 18), only had to contact her once in 2006, and haven't seen or spoken to her since. At that time, I needed her signature for financial aid documents for school, and I was told she'd only do it if I paid her. My stepdad ended up giving her the money, but that goes to show you the mentality she had and still has. I don't need or want a person like that in my life, blood relation or not.

Edited May 20, 2019 by AgentRXS

[Mindthinkr]

My goodness @AgentRXS my heart goes out to your grandmother and that you have stood so strong on your own. You rock. 

@Suzy Rhapsody You are getting some good advice and some cautionary tales on this thread. I hope that you can be strong. 

My ex had a son. A moocher who lived with his great aunt. He would bully her by making her stand in a corner and blocking her from being able to move. She was a slight thing and had to give in and sell stocks or whatever to make him stop. The people at her bank knew that he brought her to cash her social security check it was so it could be handed over. They felt badly, but were powerless to do anything. (I dared to ask them why they didn’t report it to the law) She let it go on because he was family. He also stole and committed crimes. When he finally got before a judge, who caught on to his ways, the judge asked him to sign his vehicle over to her as repayment. He said no, and signed it over to his drug dealer so his connection was still good when he came out. We all know someone or a friend who has this unfortunately happen to them. Please don’t be a victim. You recognize the problem. That’s the first and hardest step. Now please be brave and let her go...with luck she will learn (albeit maybe the hard way) and return to you a better person. Really...best wishes. 

[VioletNevermind]

I knew I did the right thing in consulting folks here.  Thank you all for taking the time to respond with such care and detail.  It really helps me to consider this from all angles.  I can totally see how I could be compromised eventually in this situation if I’m not careful.  Her behavior is almost predatory with her family members.  She wants to “live her own life” when she has money, but she’s quick to reach out when she’s spent all of her money on vape pods, Panera lunches, and most recently, an $80 tattoo that left her with $3.74 in the bank and no money for transportation back and forth to work.  Fortunately, she knows how I’ll respond if she asks for money, which I believe is a big part of the reason she isn’t really trying to maintain consistent contact with me.  As long as her paternal aunt (and chief enabler) is giving her a little bit of money, I am immaterial.  It’s a very callous way to live her life, but nothing surprises me at this point.  I have to worry about number one.  I’ve had enough trauma for now, thanks.  I turned off all notifications in case she sends a message or some stupid meme on Instagram.  I’ll see them when I see them.  I need a break from the BS.

[Bastet]

Good for you, @Suzy Rhapsody.  It's different taking a hard line with a full-fledged adult and with an 18-year-old (especially who's long been immature for her chronological age), yes, but at some point in the latter scenario it still has to happen, and the age will come into play if and when she shows real remorse and progress.  I think you're striking a good balance, and encourage you to keep exploring your own interests, consulting with your therapist, and checking in here (while not professional, it's good to take in anecdotal experiences and lay advice as supplements) as you come up with a life plan that works for you.  I hope things ultimately work out for both you and your daughter.

[MargeGunderson]

7 hours ago, Suzy Rhapsody said:

I knew I did the right thing in consulting folks here.  Thank you all for taking the time to respond with such care and detail.  It really helps me to consider this from all angles.  I can totally see how I could be compromised eventually in this situation if I’m not careful.  Her behavior is almost predatory with her family members.  She wants to “live her own life” when she has money, but she’s quick to reach out when she’s spent all of her money on vape pods, Panera lunches, and most recently, an $80 tattoo that left her with $3.74 in the bank and no money for transportation back and forth to work.  Fortunately, she knows how I’ll respond if she asks for money, which I believe is a big part of the reason she isn’t really trying to maintain consistent contact with me.  As long as her paternal aunt (and chief enabler) is giving her a little bit of money, I am immaterial.  It’s a very callous way to live her life, but nothing surprises me at this point.  I have to worry about number one.  I’ve had enough trauma for now, thanks.  I turned off all notifications in case she sends a message or some stupid meme on Instagram.  I’ll see them when I see them.  I need a break from the BS.

I have a 50 year old sister who has very little to do with my mother (no calls, emails, etc.) except when she needs money, which is often. Last year she asked my mom to give her her "inheritance" now instead of when my mom dies, because she could use it to buy a car and pay on her student loans (which my mom paid for some time before she could no longer afford it). The inheritance that she refers to is my mom's retirement money, not some special funds set aside. My brother and I have repeated told my mom to stop enabling her, especially when my sister can't even be civil. But my mom still sends her money. This cycle was set years ago and will probably only end when my mom dies. At this point it's learned helplessness on my sister's part, combined with a belief that she shouldn't have to do anything she doesn't like. I always wonder what would have happened if my parents had refused to support her. 

[Was-MArsenault]

Got into an accident yesterday with my dad.

[BookWoman56]

The past month has been insanely chaotic. My 90-year-old mother went into the hospital roughly a month ago, with a tiny cut to her thumb that became seriously infected, requiring surgery to her thumb, palm of her hand, and forearm. About 2 weeks later she was discharged and home for a few days, before developing blood clots in her lungs and legs, which ultimately resulted in another procedure because one of the clots was causing cardiac problems. She was in ICU for several days because her blood pressure kept dropping to ridiculously low levels. Reached the point where I called my older sister to come here to help me assess the situation, and we contacted the other siblings to alert them that we had no way to predict exactly what would happen, but things were serious.

My mother finally stabilized enough to go to a skilled nursing facility, but my sister and I both thought she would very possibly not make it through the next week. Instead, her stubbornness has kicked in and she is now hellbent on getting out of the facility ASAP. Which will involve setting up home health care to continue physical therapy for her hand, etc., which had already started during the few days she was at home between hospital stays. A few days ago, the facility informed me that Medicare will pay full cost there for only 20 days, and if I want to extend the stay after that, there will be a $170/day co-pay, and that she would probably not qualify for the type of Medicaid that covers their facility. So it looks like when she hits the 20 days, she will be discharged to my home, and we will rely on a combo of home health care and another sibling who can be here for a couple of weeks to help out. I will be looking into various options, once I have some time that doesn’t need to be spent on other urgent things.

All of this is happening when I got a promotion at work literally the day after the initial hospital stay began. And I’m thrilled about the promotion, but it means having to do my previous job plus learn a lot of other responsibilities and perform those. So until I can hire someone to do what I used to do, I’m essentially doing 2 jobs. More than ready for things to get back to normal. Finally, a few days ago, dumb-ass driver in a left turn only lane proceeded to go straight and hit me, while I was turning left from the “go straight or turn left” lane, and it will not be until the end of this week until I can even get an estimate on the repairs needed. Meanwhile, I can’t open the driver’s side door. 

ETA: Also, my mother turns 91 in a couple of weeks, so various family members from out of town will be visiting then. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by BookWoman56