Bruce Jenner: The Interview (ABC)

[Irlandesa]

Some have noted how catty Bruce was for mentioning the weight of the Russian athlete he competed against. I guess he is truly a woman. Many woman tend to criticize other women for their weight, their clothing, their hair, their overall looks.

Seeing so many people come together to try to speak of Bruce's transition in the most sensitive way as possible is heartening.

 

The casual sexism of attributing his uncool remark to being a woman?  Not so heartening. 

 

It may manifest itself in different ways but no gender has a lock on judging people based on their looks. 

 

I think this would be a bigger deal if he did this shortly after the Olympics, say in the late 70's or early 80's, because of what a big deal he was back then, and of course because of his status as an Olympic athlete. But he's mostly known now as a kind of hapless, emasculated Father's Knows Least (NYT nickname) of an almost universally loathed money-hungry, famewhoring reality TV family.

According to Wikipedia, the highest rated episode of KUWTK had fewer than five million US viewers.  Hundreds of millions of viewers around the world watch The Olympics.  More people watched his interview last night than watched the highest rated ep of KUWTK. I would bet more know him as an athlete than Kim's step-daddy.

 

He may not be the "perfect" representative but he's an important one.  He's probably the highest profile person who we will know as a man and who we will know as a woman.  Whether or not the transgender community would choose him if they got to vote, he will make significant strides in tolerance because that 8% that was quoted last night of people who knowingly know a transgender man or woman will leap since many feel like they know Bruce.  He won't be a miracle worker but this will be helpful.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Irlandesa

[bluebonnet]

I feel like something of a bad person because the ones I feel the saddest for are his family members. It doesn't seem like he was the greatest father to begin with and now this. No matter how much you love someone it can't be easy dealing with them changing genders. And yes I know it's been hard on Jenner but that's just my feelings about it.

This doesn't make you a bad person at all. The family does experience suffering.  Intolerance effects more than just the one being discriminated against.  It is a virus that infects everything.  Everyone suffers.  It's unfair, it's intolerable and it's shameful.  

[LotusFlower]

According to Wikipedia, the highest rated episode of KUWTK had fewer than five million US viewers. Hundreds of millions of viewers around the world watch The Olympics. More people watched his interview last night than watched the highest rated ep of KUWTK. I would bet more know him as an athlete than Kim's step-daddy.

He won the decathlon forty years ago. That was a very long time ago. He was certainly a big deal for awhile, but I'm afraid the tabloids and his association with the Kardashians has taken over. And then there's all the under forty year olds...

[LotusFlower]

One of my posts consisted of four words:  "And that's the problem."

I think you said that in reference to Bruce not being an ideal spokesperson for transgender education. I don't think my POV is as staunch as yours, but I happen to agree with you. Not sure why that can't be said/discussed.

[bluebonnet]

He won the decathlon forty years ago. That was a very long time ago. He was certainly a big deal for awhile, but I'm afraid the tabloids and his association with the Kardashians has taken over. And then there's all the under forty year olds...

There really is a very generational divide with how people will recognize his names.  Those who recognize him as the man's man mega athlete are less likely to be watching reality tv or consuming online tabloids.  That generation is also more likely to recognize the Kardashian name as OJ's laywer rather than reality empire.  Bruce coming out to this generation is a pretty big deal and it could be groundbreaking.  People tend to be very protective of our athletes.  I'm very curious to see what those who are most likely to be influencing policy have to say when they see that one of the most beloved athletes has suffered so terribly.  

[GreatKazu]

 

 

The casual sexism of attributing his uncool remark to being a woman?  Not so heartening. 

 

It may manifest itself in different ways but no gender has a lock on judging people based on their looks. 

 

 

 

Of course no gender is more catty than the other, that was actually my point. I was being facetious.

 

 

Who leaked the appointment? Kris and her camp?

Oh, I have no doubt that someone at that medical office leaked it for some quick, hard cash. People in medical offices, hospitals, clinics, are ready to hand over some private info to TMZ. I cannot recall where I got this info, but someone who works with the paparazzi stated they get calls from employees who work in such places. Also, with the mention of the tracker on his car, it was easy to know his whereabouts.

 

 

I can't believe they put a tracker on his car. Isn't that illegal?

I was stunned to hear that, but now that it has sunk in, I shouldn't be shocked. Those paps will do anything to get a story and/or photos. Watching the heckling Bruce was receiving by some of those paps in some of the clips they showed, it was disgusting.

[LotusFlower]

There really is a very generational divide with how people will recognize his names.  Those who recognize him as the man's man mega athlete are less likely to be watching reality tv or consuming online tabloids.  That generation is also more likely to recognize the Kardashian name as OJ's laywer rather than reality empire.  Bruce coming out to this generation is a pretty big deal and it could be groundbreaking.  People tend to be very protective of our athletes.  I'm very curious to see what those who are most likely to be influencing policy have to say when they see that one of the most beloved athletes has suffered so terribly.

I think change, especially the groundbreaking kind, usually happens when a younger generation takes the reigns. Look at the strides made in the gay rights movement in the past 5-10 years. Polls shows a stark generational divide on these issues. I just don't see the over-50 crowd leading the charge here.

[Guest]

I still think Kris was in it for the money more than love. Bruce was more well known and had more money than her. Then she helped him make more money. That woman is business smart. But she did treat him like shit on the show.

Who leaked the appointment? Kris and her camp?

TMZ first reported it so it obviously came from Kris. She probably did it to shame him into not going forward with the transition. While everything about this family is fake, it seems Kris is truly humiliated that Bruce is becoming a woman... in public, since that ish was okay in private.

I truly feel bad for him. The jokes online and what the comedians and paps made are horrible. I can't believe they put a tracker on his car. Isn't that illegal? And I suspect the k clan are going to state their opinion on the show for ratings. Which is why Kris is staying quiet.

Go on twitter, facebook, youtube and read what people wrote. Look at the k clan distance themselves from him because it might be bad publicity, look at the media making jokes about him and following his every move. I don't know about the accident but how is it relevant to Bruce becoming a woman?

But Scott is a douche bag and Kourtney has issues herself. I understand the kids might be confused and have questions but what's how does or how will Kourtney explain her relationship with Scott and his stupidity plus drinking.

And I'm sorry when I saw the old family pic of Khloe it was very obvious that she may have a different father than Kourtney and Kim.

Is Kris the only person with TMZ's phone number?  Why would she out Bruce?  She hid his secret for 23 years.  I think she's the least likely culprit.  

 

Kourtney is the most level headed of the bunch.  What are her issues?  Having 3 kids with a guy who is ok with playing drunk for millions of dollars?  Seems pretty shrewd of them both to me.  

 

You know you can't look at someone and actually see illegitimacy, right?  Some of the things you think are obvious seem pretty ludicrous to me.  

 

Regarding if Bruce will be a pioneer of sorts... I hate to admit that short of Laverne Cox, even after watching the interview last night, I can't recall the names of other trans celebrities.  So I agree that to many people he'll be the biggest name so far, and the one we might feel we actually knew a little bit before the change. 

[zoeysmom]

Old reporter here. In my view, Sawyer dropped the ball. Yes, she was asking questions that many audience members likely have. But no, she did not do her due diligence in not asking more probing questions as well. Bruce would be understandably cautious about what he shares, especially early in this public phase. But, no, I don't think Sawyer came anywhere close to stretching his boundaries to the point of breaking. Not in a two-hour interview.

 

On the other hand, Jenner doesn't strike me as a terribly complex thinker. Not that he doesn't have a deep personal understanding of this entire journey. He's lived it. All of it. It's his specific story to tell - or not. But he doesn't strike me as particularly thoughtful overall (probably why he survived as long as he did with the K-cult).

 

As an obviously ignorant - but empathetic - outsider to the transgender community, that's where I also see the argument that he's not exactly the greatest spokesperson (whether or not that is a role he actively wants - apparently not - or whether it's placed on him at some level because of his public status). I can see the argument that some, like the transgender reporter interviewed on CNN this morning, are making.

I think there at some point may be a discussion if Jenner is transgender or a transvestite.  It seemed to me it was quite a bit about being the physical part of being a woman except when it wasn't when it came down to sexual reassignment surgery.  I wish Jenner the best but I don't really think Jenner would be the best advocate for transgender-just an advocate.  There were times I found Jenner to be a bit coy and cutsie during the interview.  The let me show you what I will  be wearing to dinner.  Also, I don't think Jenner would ever have a size 36 B size bra.  The 36 is based on the circumference of the chest-it would be like saying his jacket size was a 36.  Some things stretch credibility.  Also I believe Jenner used steroids so discontinuing their use could lead to man boobs.  Again I wish Jenner the best in this path. 

[Irlandesa]

I think change, especially the groundbreaking kind, usually happens when a younger generation takes the reigns. Look at the strides made in the gay rights movement in the past 5-10 years. Polls shows a stark generational divide on these issues. I just don't see the over-50 crowd leading the charge here.

They don't need to lead the charge to be a big factor in pushing forward transgender rights.  According to a Gallup poll (just one out of many so YMMV as how representative it is) support for same sex marriage has increased by about an equal rate in different age groups over the past 20 years.  The difference is that the older generation started out with much less support than the younger generation and that's where they remain.  But by bringing the 65+ support up from 14% to 42% did help with gay rights, especially since they're the generation more likely to vote.  If it were just the youth leading the way, it would've taken much longer to be where we are in regards to gay marriage.  It's about increasing support in all demos and I do think Bruce will help with that.  As will conversations between generations.  As will transparency about being a transgender man or woman. 

[LotusFlower]

I think the truer test will be what he does going forward. Was this a one-and-done, or will he continue to do interviews and work on education and awareness of transgender issues? Will he meet with Republican leaders (or any politicians) that can effect policy? How will his reality show help or hurt?

[Constantinople]

In retrospect, I shouldn't have been surprised.

 

It was, in a sense, inevitable, and obvious to anyone who paid attention or "did the math".

 

Nevertheless it was shocking.

 

At least to someone who remembers him winning the Olympic decathlon.

 

Part of me still can't get over it.

 

 

Bruce Jenner is 65?

[WendyCR72]

I think the truer test will be what he does going forward. Was this a one-and-done, or will he continue to do interviews and work on education and awareness of transgender issues? Will he meet with Republican leaders (or any politicians) that can effect policy? How will his reality show help or hurt?

 

The reality show is the sticking point for me. And I know I probably shouldn't judge before it even airs, but considering the Kardashian "reality" the world has seen, I don't see Bruce getting away with keeping any dignity intact. I'm frankly at a loss as to what this reality show will accomplish.

 

But then, maybe Jenner just wants more money for surgeries or whatnot. I don't know. But he knows the score as far as these E! shows go, so good luck to him.

[LotusFlower]

The reality show is the sticking point for me. And I know I probably shouldn't judge before it even airs, but considering the Kardashian "reality" the world has seen, I don't see Bruce getting away with keeping any dignity intact. I'm frankly at a loss as to what this reality show will accomplish.

 

But then, maybe Jenner just wants more money for surgeries or whatnot. I don't know. But he knows the score as far as these E! shows go, so good luck to him.

Right. I can't help but think that not revealing his new name, and "teasing" the look at his closet but not allowing the cameras to capture his new look -- all of that is being saved for his reality show. It just feels so exploitive and producer-driven to me, as opposed to a more thoughtful, documentary style program. But we shall see.

[maraleia]

I think there at some point may be a discussion if Jenner is transgender or a transvestite.  It seemed to me it was quite a bit about being the physical part of being a woman except when it wasn't when it came down to sexual reassignment surgery.  I wish Jenner the best but I don't really think Jenner would be the best advocate for transgender-just an advocate.  There were times I found Jenner to be a bit coy and cutsie during the interview.  The let me show you what I will  be wearing to dinner.  Also, I don't think Jenner would ever have a size 36 B size bra.  The 36 is based on the circumference of the chest-it would be like saying his jacket size was a 36.  Some things stretch credibility.  Also I believe Jenner used steroids so discontinuing their use could lead to man boobs.  Again I wish Jenner the best in this path. 

Jenner is transgender not a transvestite. Transvestites don't get hormone therapy which is what Jenner has been doing for quite some time. Eddie Izzard is the perfect example of someone who is a transvestite.

[DrivingSideways]

I was pretty entertained the entire two hours - I thought it would be a bloated, boring mess, but it was surprisingly fascinating.  I do think Bruce learned well from Kris though - he is teasing his July 26 special by not appearing in female clothing in the episode, refusing to reveal his new name, and acting ambiguous about his sexuality.  I do think he wants to keep some tidbits for his own special, so it's good to see Bruce is the same old famewhore he's always been.

 

I was also floored by the complete lack of Kardashian involvement last night.  Is it possible that it was Bruce's choice to not have them on the special, so that the moment was 'his' and not part of the Kardashian circus?  

 

Linda's essay was fascinating.  I knew Bruce was a deadbeat dad, but the extent to which was news to me.  That years went by with no acknowledgement on birthdays, graduations, Christmas... and they lived in the same city!  I can't believe Linda is so gracious because I would be livid if a father treated my children that way.

 

As far as Bruce being a Republican - I love it!  I'm gay, and I come from a long line of Republicans, and even though I've tried to be a Democrat, it's hard to break away from the ideals I grew up with.  My very conservative dad texted me this morning about how brave and awesome Bruce is.  I think it was the slam on Obama that won him over.  And to clarify the 'constitution' thing... I think when people say that, they are talking about actions of Obama and not all Democrats - like when Democrats say Republicans are on a war on women, when the Republicans in my circle are all pro-choice, reproductive rights, etc.  I never thought about Bruce's political views before but it actually makes perfect sense he's a Republican... makes you wonder how many of the other Kardashians are as well.

[millennium]

Jenner is transgender not a transvestite. Transvestites don't get hormone therapy which is what Jenner has been doing for quite some time. Eddie Izzard is the perfect example of someone who is a transvestite.

With all due respect, you are mistaken. It's not accurate to be drawing lines between transgender and transvestite.

According to GLAAD, transgender is:

An umbrella term for people whose gender identity and/or gender expression differs from what is typically associated with the sex they were assigned at birth. People under the transgender umbrella may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms - including transgender. Some of those terms are defined below. Use the descriptive term preferred by the individual. Many transgender people are prescribed hormones by their doctors to change their bodies. Some undergo surgery as well. But not all transgender people can or will take those steps, and a transgender identity is not dependent upon medical procedures.

http://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender

Transvestites (although it is improper to use this word according to the above GLAAD document --crossdressers is the preferred term) are transgender. Anyone who is gender variant, to whatever degree, falls under the transgender umbrella and can describe themselves as transgender. Including crossdressers.

I think what you may be attempting to explain is not the difference between transgender and crossdresser (transvestite), but between transsexual and crossdresser. Generally speaking, hormone therapy is more exclusive to transsexuals. For transsexuals, HRT (hormone replacement therapy) is one of the first steps towards SRS (sexual reassignment surgery). It should be noted, however, that there are some crossdressers who take hormones to some degree to achieve a more feminine appearance. They may also undergo some minor cosmetic procedures such as electrolysis for the same reason.

As a suggestion, I would refrain from trying to assign this or that behavior to any single group in the transgender community. There are no rules. There are transsexuals who go for the full package -- hormone therapy, orchiectomy, vaginoplasty, facial feminization surgery (FFS), tracheal shave, vocal chord reduction ...some even have their teeth done to appear more cosmetically female (obviously, there are other specific procedures for people who wish to achieve a masculine appearance) But there are as many or perhaps more who only have some of those procedures. There are individuals who start out as crossdressers but gradually come to an awareness that there's more going on ... just as there those who never take it further than occasionally dressing up. And those who never have surgery of any kind but live as their chosen sex in every other way. Likewise, sexuality is all over the place in the transgender spectrum. Honestly, it's like a Chinese menu and it's such a huge mistake to think you can assign specific behaviors to any one group under the transgender umbrella.

[Laurie4H]

That is what I wonder too! I understand backing off, but why chose to play house for another 25 years and raise two more kids? Edit: AND be represented on a reality show for eight years!

Because the whole thing is a publicity stunt?

I couldn't believe there was a doctor that said a kid at 18 months who says "I a boy" means they are transgender. I mean come on! A kids needs to go through puberty first.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Laurie4H

[RemoteControlFreak]

I think change, especially the groundbreaking kind, usually happens when a younger generation takes the reigns. Look at the strides made in the gay rights movement in the past 5-10 years. Polls shows a stark generational divide on these issues. I just don't see the over-50 crowd leading the charge here.

Actually that's not at all true.  Young people, notably those under age 25, have a higher rate of acceptance of gay marriage because they've never known a world without gay marriage. This does not mean they led, or are leading the charge, for gay rights.  

Because the whole thing is a publicity stunt?

I couldn't believe there was a doctor that said a kid at 18 months who says "I a boy" means they are transgender. I mean come on! A kids needs to go through puberty first.

Also incorrect. Physicians that specialize in gender dysphoria, and transgender individuals themselves, almost universally report that recognition of gender dysphoria manifests at a very young age.  18 months is extreme but, like Bruce, almost all trans people recognize this about them way before puberty.  Finally, if you watch the recording again, the doctor does not say that they 18 month old who said, "I a boy" is definitely transgender.  She said it only shows that young children have a recognition of what their gender is and that gender identity is in the brain long before puberty.

Edited April 26, 2015 by remotecontrolfreak

[RemoteControlFreak]

Regarding if Bruce will be a pioneer of sorts... I hate to admit that short of Laverne Cox, even after watching the interview last night, I can't recall the names of other trans celebrities.  So I agree that to many people he'll be the biggest name so far, and the one we might feel we actually knew a little bit before the change. 

Laverne Cox is not a similar case because she was not a celebrity before transitioning.  Bruce is more like Chaz Bono, who was famous before, during and after a transition.   Or maybe Alexis Arquette, or going back many decades, the writer Jan Morris.

Edited April 26, 2015 by remotecontrolfreak

[iwasish]

I thought Bruce was a bit coy and flirtatious with Diane also. But I thought it might be related more to the idea that he finally had some paying attention to him. Talking to him and really listening to what he is saying. From appearances on the show, Kris and the kids either ignored him or mocked him, via his wardrobe or his interests in helicopters/ golf, his hair or his opinions on things. It was probably nice to have some express interest in what he had to say.

Linda Thompsen's revelation that she took no alimony or child support was interesting. Did Bruce not have any money? Not that she needed it, I think she was a song writer and probably made money of her own. But interesting to me was the fact that he walked off and paid nothing for his sons, don't know about his older two, and yet later goes to Bob Kardashian and takes full financial responsibility for 4 step kids! Very ironic.

[Darian]

I think change, especially the groundbreaking kind, usually happens when a younger generation takes the reigns. Look at the strides made in the gay rights movement in the past 5-10 years. Polls shows a stark generational divide on these issues. I just don't see the over-50 crowd leading the charge here.

Yes and no. The changes you see now are happening because of past generations coming out, fighting to pass GLBTQ rights legislation, etc. I'm 53, straight and have been a GLBTQ rights advocate most of my life and activist for well over a decade, Generations before mine made progress that we built on, which the younger generation is  building on. And, yes, transgender rights have been part of that. The younger generation deserves a huge amount of credit, but so do those who came before. 

[Guest]

 Also, I don't think Jenner would ever have a size 36 B size bra.  The 36 is based on the circumference of the chest-it would be like saying his jacket size was a 36.  Some things stretch credibility.  Also I believe Jenner used steroids so discontinuing their use could lead to man boobs.  Again I wish Jenner the best in this path. 

I balked at his claiming "36B" too, and some of the cutesiness.  But he did say he needed to keep a sense of humor about it in the interview.  I didn't love him smugly claiming he had "the story" all along throughout the show, as if he was in some competition with Kris.  Though I guess he was just being funny again.  It is kind of ironic how deep those women dug for stories (last week we got Scott grooming pregnant Kourtney's nether regions) that might be shocking or water-cooler worthy, when he was secretly crossdressing and transitioning.  

 

It didn't occur to me he was saving the best reveals for his E! show but I imagine that's true.

 

Because the whole thing is a publicity stunt?

I couldn't believe there was a doctor that said a kid at 18 months who says "I a boy" means they are transgender. I mean come on! A kids needs to go through puberty first.

 

I'm hoping that was told to the doctor in retrospect, as in when a teen is struggling later.  Not that a mother brought their actual baby in to him for saying that.  

Laverne Cox is not a similar case because she was not a celebrity before transitioning.  

Yes, that was my point.  Bruce will be the only one that many of us 'knew' beforehand.  So in that respect he will be a bit of a pioneer to some. 

[RemoteControlFreak]

I'm hoping that was told to the doctor in retrospect, as in when a teen is struggling later.  Not that a mother brought their actual baby in to him for saying that.  

I think everyone agrees that 18 months is too young to start addressing gender identify issues in a child. But adolescence is often too late.  The hardest time for many with gender dysphoria is puberty when their bodies start strongly expressing a gender that is at odds with their identity. This is why the  suicide rate is so high among teenagers with gender identity issues.  In obvious cases of gender dysphoria, addressing the issue before adolescence is highly preferable.

Edited April 26, 2015 by remotecontrolfreak

[bluebonnet]

 

That is what I wonder too! I understand backing off, but why chose to play house for another 25 years and raise two more kids? 

I don't understand this comment.  First, we have been told that Bruce was in denial for most of his life.  That he tried to ignore what was wrong, downplayed it, pretended it was something it wasnt.  Second, since transgender people are people, they also have very human desires, like the desire to create and raise families. 

[DrivingSideways]

I don't understand this comment.  First, we have been told that Bruce was in denial for most of his life.  That he tried to ignore what was wrong, downplayed it, pretended it was something it wasnt.  Second, since transgender people are people, they also have very human desires, like the desire to create and raise families. 

I have issues with Bruce's actions too, because according to Linda's essay, he was willing to leave his sons, get the surgery, and come back as "Aunt Heather" (does that mean they would tell the kids Bruce died?  I'm confused).  But he didn't even do that.  He just... left.  She had to make excuses for him being completely absent for the huge events in his kids lives.  I understand Bruce had a struggle but abandoning your children is vile.  It's hard for me to move past that.

 

Bruce is very lucky that the kids are willing to forgive... or are big enough famewhores to jump on board just to get into the spotlight.  All of these kids have been involved in reality TV and Brandon's album got a few plugs last night.  Hate to be cynical, but this is a Kardashian-adjacent production we are talking about.  I bet they will all be prominently featured in "Here's Belinda" or whatever the July E! special will be called.

[Lisin]

Here's where I come from with regards to the new E! show, is it a cash grab? Probably. But I also think it's smart because lets all be honest. He is going to be stalked by paparazzi during this whole transition and at least if he has a show he has a teeny bit of control, and it also will devalue any pap pics because he's putting it out there himself. Much like when celebs on the beach notice paps and then immediately post bikini pics to their own instagrams so the pap photos become less valuable. I think it's a smart move. It likely won't stop it all together, but it may help him have some semblance of privacy and control. 

[escape]

I have issues with Bruce's actions too, because according to Linda's essay, he was willing to leave his sons, get the surgery, and come back as "Aunt Heather" (does that mean they would tell the kids Bruce died?  I'm confused).  But he didn't even do that.  He just... left.  She had to make excuses for him being completely absent for the huge events in his kids lives.  I understand Bruce had a struggle but abandoning your children is vile.  It's hard for me to move past that.

 

Bruce is very lucky that the kids are willing to forgive... or are big enough famewhores to jump on board just to get into the spotlight.  All of these kids have been involved in reality TV and Brandon's album got a few plugs last night.  Hate to be cynical, but this is a Kardashian-adjacent production we are talking about.  I bet they will all be prominently featured in "Here's Belinda" or whatever the July E! special will be called.

But what's done is done.  Bruce has acknowledged it many times over.  The past can't be changed.  And it doesn't do any good for anyone to hold on to past regrets.  Bruce's 2 children from his first marriage aren't involved in reality TV.  This is the first time I have even seen his daughter Casey speak.  BTW, she can rival the Kardashian sisters any time in looks.

[HalcyonDays]

Here's where I come from with regards to the new E! show, is it a cash grab?

 

Personally, I think yes. Absolutely. All of this is being broadcast simply to make money. Why else would he go on TV? If Bruce really wanted privacy, he could have it. Move out of LA. Find a small house/apartment, have the surgeries, recover and pop up in a year. There are numerous celebs who are able to stay out of the limelight and radar, only to pop up to a premiere or whatever out of the blue. He could do this too if he really wanted.

 

My cynical self says that this is merely a cash grab. The network pays him a nice chunk of change, they get ratings, the K family is happy to still be in the limelight and get attention and all is typical with the reality TV world.

[bluebonnet]

I have issues with Bruce's actions too, because according to Linda's essay, he was willing to leave his sons, get the surgery, and come back as "Aunt Heather" (does that mean they would tell the kids Bruce died?  I'm confused).  But he didn't even do that.  He just... left.  She had to make excuses for him being completely absent for the huge events in his kids lives.  I understand Bruce had a struggle but abandoning your children is vile.  It's hard for me to move past that.

It's not something you need to move past since you (presumably) weren't involved in any of it at all.  Only those involved have a need to move past or forgive and clearly they've already done this.  

 

However, condemning Bruce for being an absent parent to his children really doesn't have much to do with the comment I responding to where the poster suggested that Bruce was merely 'playing house' for 25 years, as though a transgender person cannot want to have a family.  

[Guest]

Personally, I think yes. Absolutely. All of this is being broadcast simply to make money. Why else would he go on TV? If Bruce really wanted privacy, he could have it. Move out of LA. Find a small house/apartment, have the surgeries, recover and pop up in a year. There are numerous celebs who are able to stay out of the limelight and radar, only to pop up to a premiere or whatever out of the blue. He could do this too if he really wanted.

 

My cynical self says that this is merely a cash grab. The network pays him a nice chunk of change, they get ratings, the K family is happy to still be in the limelight and get attention and all is typical with the reality TV world.

I think it might be more about his seeing this as some life's mission now, that he should do it very publicly in order to help others in his shoes, so that the public learns some tolerance.  

 

Or maybe it's about money and the above is a justification, I don't know.  

 

It might even be partly about one-upping Kris.  And one-upping the paparazzi.  I'm guessing it's probably a little bit of all of that.  

 

I do think if he disappeared and hid for the rest of his life, it would feel like it was something disgraceful you had to hide, and that would be wrong.  So he's really only faced with doing it very openly or semi-openly.  Not that anyone's suggested he move away forever.  But even for the course of the change, I don't think he should have to leave his Malibu home, friends, family and existing surgeons.  

Edited April 26, 2015 by Guest

[HalcyonDays]

I think it might be more about his seeing this as some life's mission now, that he should do it very publicly in order to help others in his shoes, so that the public learns some tolerance.  

 

Or maybe it's about money and the above is a justification, I don't know.  

 

It might even be partly about one-upping Kris.  And one-upping the paparazzi.  I'm guessing it's probably a little bit of all of that.  

 

I do think if he disappeared and hid for the rest of his life, it would feel like it was something disgraceful you had to hide, and that would be wrong.  So he's really only faced with doing it very openly or semi-openly.  

 

Please don't read my comment as me saying he needs to hide. No way. If he wants to one-up Kris, or feels now is the right time to do it, or wants the public to hear his story and learn from it, by all means. More power to him.

 

By disappearing, I was thinking how others are saying he will be hounded by the paps. If he doesn't want to be hounded, and wants some privacy, then get the heck ouf ot dodge (LA). If he has a desire to keep things private or doesn't want to be harassed, he can do this. Leave LA. That's what I meant, not that he should hide because he wants to be a woman. But he does have the choice to avoid the media, and paps if he wants to, if he doesn't want to be harassed during the transition. As I said, many celebs can pull this off easily, so it tells me that the ones that are visible, deliberately make themselves visible.

 

But my cynical side thinks - why now? Why not two years ago? One year ago? Five? Because in my mind it would possibly damage the K brand, take attention away from Kim and Kris, and maybe even cause problems with the show. Now that it's near the end of it's life, perfect timing. I still think it's about money. Everything else about this family revolves around kash and media attention, why not this?

[Irlandesa]

I couldn't believe there was a doctor that said a kid at 18 months who says "I a boy" means they are transgender. I mean come on! A kids needs to go through puberty first.

She said that was earliest she had a child express that she was a boy.  She didn't say that the child was transgender, although she very well may have been which is why she was being used as an example. I think ABC did this responsibly because shortly after this, they did address the fact that sometimes it's just a phase and judgment shouldn't be rushed the minute a child expresses themselves as an opposite gender. 

[Darknight]

Of course no gender is more catty than the other, that was actually my point. I was being facetious.

Oh, I have no doubt that someone at that medical office leaked it for some quick, hard cash. People in medical offices, hospitals, clinics, are ready to hand over some private info to TMZ. I cannot recall where I got this info, but someone who works with the paparazzi stated they get calls from employees who work in such places. Also, with the mention of the tracker on his car, it was easy to know his whereabouts.

I was stunned to hear that, but now that it has sunk in, I shouldn't be shocked. Those paps will do anything to get a story and/or photos. Watching the heckling Bruce was receiving by some of those paps in some of the clips they showed, it was disgusting.

What about HIPPA laws? I know how TMZ gets their stories but the people at the hospital shouldn't release information

Please don't read my comment as me saying he needs to hide. No way. If he wants to one-up Kris, or feels now is the right time to do it, or wants the public to hear his story and learn from it, by all means. More power to him.

By disappearing, I was thinking how others are saying he will be hounded by the paps. If he doesn't want to be hounded, and wants some privacy, then get the heck ouf ot dodge (LA). If he has a desire to keep things private or doesn't want to be harassed, he can do this. Leave LA. That's what I meant, not that he should hide because he wants to be a woman. But he does have the choice to avoid the media, and paps if he wants to, if he doesn't want to be harassed during the transition. As I said, many celebs can pull this off easily, so it tells me that the ones that are visible, deliberately make themselves visible.

But my cynical side thinks - why now? Why not two years ago? One year ago? Five? Because in my mind it would possibly damage the K brand, take attention away from Kim and Kris, and maybe even cause problems with the show. Now that it's near the end of it's life, perfect timing. I still think it's about money. Everything else about this family revolves around kash and media attention, why not this?

Isn't the show doing poorly? Kris does everything for ratings and pr. Maybe Bruce finally had the guts to leave and just say screw it this is who I am

[Darknight]

I have issues with Bruce's actions too, because according to Linda's essay, he was willing to leave his sons, get the surgery, and come back as "Aunt Heather" (does that mean they would tell the kids Bruce died? I'm confused). But he didn't even do that. He just... left. She had to make excuses for him being completely absent for the huge events in his kids lives. I understand Bruce had a struggle but abandoning your children is vile. It's hard for me to move past that.

Bruce is very lucky that the kids are willing to forgive... or are big enough famewhores to jump on board just to get into the spotlight. All of these kids have been involved in reality TV and Brandon's album got a few plugs last night. Hate to be cynical, but this is a Kardashian-adjacent production we are talking about. I bet they will all be prominently featured in "Here's Belinda" or whatever the July E! special will be called.

The Jenner's arent famewhores well except Kris. The Kardashians are. If Bruce is making money, then I say good for him. I do think e gave him his own show became it will attract viewers. The K clan isn't as popular (thank god) anymore. Good for ratings.

[Guest]

Please don't read my comment as me saying he needs to hide. No way. If he wants to one-up Kris, or feels now is the right time to do it, or wants the public to hear his story and learn from it, by all means. More power to him.

 

By disappearing, I was thinking how others are saying he will be hounded by the paps. If he doesn't want to be hounded, and wants some privacy, then get the heck ouf ot dodge (LA). 

Yeah, I edited my post before I even saw yours, realizing it sounded like I thought you suggested he hide forever.  I didn't.  But like I said above I don't think he should have to hide to have it done, either, in order to not be harrassed.  

 

Darknight- Money can entice people to break HIPAA laws.  

[Darknight]

I think everyone agrees that 18 months is too young to start addressing gender identify issues in a child. But adolescence is often too late. The hardest time for many with gender dysphoria is puberty when their bodies start strongly expressing a gender that is at odds with their identity. This is why the suicide rate is so high among teenagers with gender identity issues. In obvious cases of gender dysphoria, addressing the issue before adolescence is highly preferable.

Didn't know this. Thanks for the info. I always thought allowing a young child dictate their sexuality/gender? ?( correct if I'm wrong, sorry I'm learning too) was ridiculous. How does a 3,4,6,8 year old know what they want? If it's a teenager then it makes a lot of sense since that's where puberty begins. Why not choose who they are at puberty? Then your comment made a lot of sense to me. If you feel like your a boy but then at 13 get your period it can be hard to know that this isn't who you are.

[Artsda]

What about HIPPA laws? I know how TMZ gets their stories but the people at the hospital shouldn't release information

Isn't the show doing poorly? Kris does everything for ratings and pr. Maybe Bruce finally had the guts to leave and just say screw it this is who I am

Bruce said though, they'd still be married if Kris was more ok with it.

[Darknight]

Yeah, I edited my post before I even saw yours, realizing it sounded like I thought you suggested he hide forever. I didn't. But like I said above I don't think he should have to hide to have it done, either, in order to not be harrassed.

Darknight- Money can entice people to break HIPAA laws.

That's horrible. HIPPA laws are there for a reason. Medical professionals should uphold them.

[HalcyonDays]

Isn't the show doing poorly? Kris does everything for ratings and pr. Maybe Bruce finally had the guts to leave and just say screw it this is who I am

 

I tried to find the ratings for KuwtK, but couldn't find anything. However the Jenner interview got almost 16 million viewers - holy cow!! A 5.2 in the demo, so there you are. The networks are happy and now BJ can negotiate some more kash.

 

Yeah, I edited my post before I even saw yours, realizing it sounded like I thought you suggested he hide forever.  I didn't.  But like I said above I don't think he should have to hide to have it done, either, in order to not be harrassed.

 

No worries. I don't think he should have to hide either but the problem with Hollywood/celebs is that the paps are always chasing after them, and they lose the privacy they may want to have. Some will argue that the person is a celeb, therefore should be in public at all times, and I don't agree. Sometime you want to be left alone, and just because one appears in movies/TV, they should still have the option. So in the case of Bruce, if he really wanted to be left alone, he'd have to go elsewhere to attain that privacy, because in LA (and NY) the paps are everywhere. But it can be done.

 

However, if he doesn't care about invasion of privacy, then he doesn't have to hide anywhere. I value privacy big time, so having my life "out there" for public consumption just makes me cringe, and I think some celebs may feel the same way too and if they do, they should be able to be left alone.

 

That's horrible. HIPPA laws are there for a reason. Medical professionals should uphold them.

 

There have been cases of hospital employees digging into patient files (I think Britney Spears was one), the info went out on the internet, and they tracked down the workers and fired them. What is wrong with people.

 

How does a 3,4,6,8 year old know what they want?

 

For serious surgeries like this, Doctors recommend the person be at least 18, because the body is still growing and changing. Done too early can have negative consequences, but there are teens who do have surgery early, or decide on hormone therapy or whatever, early on, and they turned out okay.

[Guest]

That's horrible. HIPPA laws are there for a reason. Medical professionals should uphold them.

I doubt it was as bad as his doctors leaking it.  Probably more like a staff member mentioned it in confidence to a family member who decided to cash in on the knowledge.  

[Darknight]

I tried to find the ratings for KuwtK, but couldn't find anything. However the Jenner interview got almost 16 million viewers - holy cow!! A 5.2 in the demo, so there you are. The networks are happy and now BJ can negotiate some more kash.

No worries. I don't think he should have to hide either but the problem with Hollywood/celebs is that the paps are always chasing after them, and they lose the privacy they may want to have. Some will argue that the person is a celeb, therefore should be in public at all times, and I don't agree. Sometime you want to be left alone, and just because one appears in movies/TV, they should still have the option. So in the case of Bruce, if he really wanted to be left alone, he'd have to go elsewhere to attain that privacy, because in LA (and NY) the paps are everywhere. But it can be done.

However, if he doesn't care about invasion of privacy, then he doesn't have to hide anywhere. I value privacy big time, so having my life "out there" for public consumption just makes me cringe, and I think some celebs may feel the same way too and if they do, they should be able to be left alone.

There have been cases of hospital employees digging into patient files (I think Britney Spears was one), the info went out on the internet, and they tracked down the workers and fired them. What is wrong with people.

For serious surgeries like this, Doctors recommend the person be at least 18, because the body is still growing and changing. Done too early can have negative consequences, but there are teens who do have surgery early, or decide on hormone therapy or whatever, early on, and they turned out okay.

What can happen if it's done too early? And with males transition to females I would think doing hormone therapy early can allow then to be more in tune with their voice change. And from what I did read a transgender person has to go through with serious counseling before, during and after, which I think is good. I know some transgender people like the pregnant man, keep their original genitalia

[choclatechip45]

 

 The Jenner's arent famewhores well except Kris.

Sorry I disagree. Brody is just as bad as any of the Kardashians and his friend Spencer is worse than any of the Kardashians. Brody and Brandon were on reality tv years before the Kardashians were. The show wasn't popular and Brody wiggled his way on The Hills.   I have always been cynical about Brandon. Makes up with his dad and conventionality gets his music plugged on this and Keeping up with the Kardashians. From what I understand one of his songs was the theme song for one of the Kardashian spin off shows.

Edited April 26, 2015 by choclatechip45

[DrivingSideways]

It's not something you need to move past since you (presumably) weren't involved in any of it at all.  Only those involved have a need to move past or forgive and clearly they've already done this.  

 

However, condemning Bruce for being an absent parent to his children really doesn't have much to do with the comment I responding to where the poster suggested that Bruce was merely 'playing house' for 25 years, as though a transgender person cannot want to have a family.  

 

I can certainly have issues with Bruce's deadbeat dad past and it is something I have to move past before I start hashtagging that Bruce is a big hero.  Like other transgender and cisgender people, Bruce is fallible and some mistakes speak to a person's character. 

 

The Jenner's arent famewhores well except Kris. The Kardashians are. If Bruce is making money, then I say good for him. I do think e gave him his own show became it will attract viewers. The K clan isn't as popular (thank god) anymore. Good for ratings.

 

Bruce is the original famewhore.  He is famous for having done anything for publicity after his Olympic win, which probably explains the attraction to Kris, who picked up the reins.  Brody had starring roles on The Hills and his own reality show, Bromance.  Brandon and Burt showed up from time to time on the Kardashians.  Not sure about Casey.  But the Jenners and Kardashians have a long mutual history of self promotion and trashy entertainment.  Which I watch, so no judgment.

[RemoteControlFreak]

Bruce said though, they'd still be married if Kris was more ok with it.

I think Bruce meant that if Kris were OK with it, they'd still be married AND he'd still be transitioning. It doesn't mean that he would not go through with the transition.  

[RemoteControlFreak]

For serious surgeries like this, Doctors recommend the person be at least 18, because the body is still growing and changing. Done too early can have negative consequences, but there are teens who do have surgery early, or decide on hormone therapy or whatever, early on, and they turned out okay.

Children are not having sex reassignment surgery. The treatments in children are psychological support, to help the child understand and live with their gender disfunction, and, in a few cases, hormonal, to both stop natural puberty and cause hormonal changes of the other gender. 

 

Here is some more information:

http://transhealth.ucsf.edu/trans?page=protocol-youth

 

https://nwhn.org/transgender-youth-providing-medical-treatment-misunderstood-population

[HalcyonDays]

Children are not having sex reassignment surgery. The treatments in children are psychological support, to help the child understand and live with their gender disfunction, and, in a few cases, hormonal, to both stop natural puberty and cause hormonal changes of the other gender.

 

Not kids. Teenagers, like 15 or 16 years old, and who get parental consent. A child, no way, too young. That would be irresponsible.

[maraleia]

Children are not having sex reassignment surgery. The treatments in children are psychological support, to help the child understand and live with their gender disfunction, and, in a few cases, hormonal, to both stop natural puberty and cause hormonal changes of the other gender. 

 

Here is some more information:

http://transhealth.ucsf.edu/trans?page=protocol-youth

 

https://nwhn.org/transgender-youth-providing-medical-treatment-misunderstood-population

Or the new term gender confirmation surgery. Sex reassignment surgery has been replace with this new terminology but it's been really recent so no worries. Carry on!

[Gemma Violet]

Bruce is the original famewhore.  He is famous for having done anything for publicity after his Olympic win, 

 

Why shouldn't he have cashed in after becoming the World's Greatest Athlete.  He gave up years of his life to train while his wife supported him so he could follow his dream.  Heck, I'd do every commercial and TV show that came my way.

[RemoteControlFreak]

Or the new term gender confirmation surgery. Sex reassignment surgery has been replace with this new terminology but it's been really recent so no worries. Carry on!

thank you for the correction