Emma Swan: 1000% done with your infuriating optimism

[kili]

Shit on Emma's character all you want but this is a writing and directing issue

 

But the writing and directing is all we have to go on. We can head cannon all the things we want, but if they don't show us something or tell us it happened, it is just fanwanking.

 

We know for a fact that Emma, for whatever reason, did not put Hook's heart back into his chest until the got to the bathroom hallway of Grannie's. Normally, one would think we would need a good reason for that. Mulan didn't wait until she found the bathroom in an Inn to put back Aurora's heart. We know that they aren't being chased by fire balls or escaping Rumple. There is apparently no threat to them in the Clock Tower or the roadway.  Why wait?

 

Maybe I can see them waiting until they get somewhere significant - like her appartment or wherever it is he sleeps or the jailhouse, but the bathroom hallway of Grannie's? That's neither private nor significant. It's actually kind of crummy. What is the REASON?

 

Finally, after re-hearting him, we are seen a scene that can't be happening much later in the night (Grannie's is crowded and Henry is still running around without supervision) and she's prioritizing going for drinks with Regina to cheer her up. When Henry runs in to show them something, she's game for that too.

 

Notice how earlier in the day she was not game for trying to figure out why Hook was acting like a robot - even if she didn't know he'd been de-hearted,she should have known something significant was wrong - there had just been a curse where people were attacking each other - maybe he has a significant head injury?  Maybe he'd been hit by a curse? Maybe he had a brain parisite? But he was behaving enough wrong that she should have been concerrned.

 

So, given what we are shown, Occam's Razor requires us to assume the most logical - Emma doesn't all that much care what happens to Hook. She's happy for him to sacrifice himself for her, but she really isn't all that fussed what happens to him.

 

Her Priorities Are: Henry->Regina->Charmings->PeopleSheMetYesterday->Townspeople->AssortedVillains->Hook->Happy

 

That's what the evidence shown on the show tells me.

 

I love Emma, so I wish she wouldn't make herself as the user in a relationship, but that is what we've been shown. Hook likes being used, so he seems happy. I'm just not very satisfied and I hope she finds somebody one day that she truly cares about. Then I can care about the relationship and I can stop considering her has kind of crummy for treating somebody, even a villain, that way.

Edited December 15, 2014 by kili

[Emma]

Agreed. So much has to be on faith, head cannon, fanfic, whatever you can grasp, to fill in blanks where Emma is concerned.

The writers don't care about her character and the emotional pay offs. Fucking sad because it's her pay off that is the most interesting to me and would be the most rewarding.

I shouldn't be surprised though when it's taken 4 seasons just to give us flashbacks for her character.

We're just left with whatever crumbs they give us and that depresses me to no end.

[FabulousTater]

We were deprived of any information that lead between Emma and Hook's scene and then Emma's scene with Regina, but the assumption is that Emma left Hook? Here's an insane idea, but what if Hook was the one that said to Emma:

"Love, this is great, I have my heart back and the villains are defeated. But I haven't slept in 72 hours. I'm stressed out and sleep deprived, do you mind if we pick this up tomorrow after I've slept 12 hours?"

 

As far as we know maybe Hook just wanted to get some damn sleep, how the hell do we know? We don't know. So how is that anymore or less ridiculous than it being all Emma's fault? I'm not clear on why all the shit is being dumped on Emma when I can easily think of reasons why Hook may have put the breaks on last night or why maybe he didn't feel up to a long drawn out conversation. But like, without any information the assumption is "Well, Emma's the worst girlfriend and not worthy of Hook". I think that's awfully presumptuous, really one-sided, and very far from being a case of "Occam's Razor".

 

Ultimately, there's no reason to blame characters because really, this all just comes down to shit writing and we all know it.

Edited December 15, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Emma]

FabulousTater, so much word to your post.

I love CS and the characters deserve more than they're getting as individuals and as a couple.

[Dani-Ellie]

Maybe I can see them waiting until they get somewhere significant - like her appartment or wherever it is he sleeps or the jailhouse, but the bathroom hallway of Grannie's? That's neither private nor significant. It's actually kind of crummy. What is the REASON?

 

Maybe they wanted to do it without an audience. Maybe they wanted to do it somewhere safe and hidden. Maybe it was Hook's idea to wait. We don't know. It sucks that we don't know but we don't know whose idea it was to wait. I have a hard time believe Emma snatches the heart from him and then drags him all over town before deciding, hey, let's put this back now, yeah?

 

Finally, after re-hearting him, we are seen a scene that can't be happening much later in the night (Grannie's is crowded and Henry is still running around without supervision) and she's prioritizing going for drinks with Regina to cheer her up. When Henry runs in to show them something, she's game for that too.

 

Do we have any time cues at all? This is a serious question. Because Granny's being crowded isn't necessarily the best cue. Diners are generally crowded all the time. There's no reason to believe there wasn't time we didn't see between those scenes.

 

Henry->Regina->Charmings->PeopleSheMetYesterday->Townspeople->AssortedVillains->Hook->Happy

 

I love Emma, so I wish she wouldn't make herself as the user in a relationship, but that is what we've been shown. Hook likes being used, so he seems happy. I'm just not very satisfied and I hope she finds somebody one day that she truly cares about. Then I can care about the relationship and I can stop considering her has kind of crummy for treating somebody, even a villain, that way.

 

I don't agree with this at all. This is the woman who willingly gave up a part of herself to save him (her magic in 3B). She did it at the expense of herself and, at the time, everyone in town since they were all banking on her magic to defeat Zelena. We haven't been shown that she is using him. We've been shown she can't bear to lose him. We've been shown she's falling for him. We've been shown how she includes him in her family.

 

I don't know if the expectation was that we were going to get a big TLK or "I love you" confession and there's disappointment that we didn't get it or what, but it's one episode. It's a mid-season finale. Their relationship is still developing. They're not done and there's more to come.

[RadioGirl27]

Shit on Emma's character all you want but this is a writing and directing issue. Once again we've had an arc that built her character and relationships up only to lead to no pay off. This isn't just a Hook issue which I'm seeing the most complaints about. They've been doing this with her family for a while.

I have used Hook as an example because it was the most recent case and he is my favourite chatacter, so I'm tired to see him treated like he doesn't mather. But Emma had been horribly written this season. She has been written like she is totally numb: she almost kills her father, no reaction; she recovers the only happy memories she has from her childhood (even if some of them were bad, the most of them were happy), no reaction; her boyfriend almost dies in front of her eyes, the same boyfriend she "can't loose", no reaction.

Of course the problem is the writing, and I would post about this in the writers thread later, but as a fan of both Hook and Emma and their relationship, I'm disappointed with the version of Emma I'm seeing right now.

I edit this to add that I don't have a problem with the last scene, my complaint is with the scene where she feels, for the second time in two days, that something is wrong with him and she just goes back to help the Frozen folks without a second thought.

Edited December 15, 2014 by RadioGirl27

[FabulousTater]

But Emma had been horribly written this season. She has been written like she is totally numb: she almost kills her father, no reaction

I think you might have missed the episode where she fled in fear after she accidentally dropped a light post on him. When it happened Emma immediately ran to David, worried for him, but then when Snow admonished her Emma ran away in fear. Emma had a very visceral onscreen reaction to what happened with David and the fear of her powers because of it. There was an episode dedicated to it. Now how Emma came to accept her magic and that her parents "don't fear her"? Ya, that was given total short shrift (and pretty much everything else not related to Woegina was given short shrift.)

Edited December 15, 2014 by FabulousTater

[kili]

Maybe they wanted to do it without an audience. Maybe they wanted to do it somewhere safe and hidden.

 

It was the bathroom hallway of a restaurant. It's not private. It's not safe. It's not hidden. And at any moment, somebody with full bladder, bad gas, a need to throw up Grannie's lasagne or a want for a quickie could appear in the hallway to interupt.

 

The clock tower was hidden and audience free (surely, Snow would have guarded the door).

 

I could buy them waiting if they had gone somewhere without an audience, somewhere safe, somewhere hidden or somewhere significant. They didn't.  They went to a hallway in Grannie's. I can't see any reason to wait for that.

 

I don't know if the expectation was that we were going to get a big TLK or "I love you" confession and there's disappointment that we didn't get it or what, but it's one episode.

 

I was hoping that there would be some worry about her boyfriend, that she could take 5 minutes from her busy schedule to investigate why he was acting weird and that maybe she could spend an evening chatting with him or watching him sleep or something after he nearly died since she claimed she couldn't loose him. If my significant other nearly died, that's what I'd do. I wouldn't be trying to cheer up some woman who hates me for the ten millionth time.

 

I guess I bought into the press interviews where the actors and writers said that Emma would fight for Hook and that she would notice something was wrong with him and that she really had started to care for him. Lift out the kisses and you could easily have replaced Emma with Grumpy for the Emma/Hook interaction in that episode.  She may have thought Hook was acting weird, but she didn't care.

[Curio]

I don't know if the expectation was that we were going to get a big TLK or "I love you" confession and there's disappointment that we didn't get it or what, but it's one episode. It's a mid-season finale. Their relationship is still developing. They're not done and there's more to come.

 

Personally, I thought it would have been way too soon for a True Love's Kiss. I thought the timing might have been okay to do some kind of acknowledgement of love. Perhaps not "I love you" verbatim, but something with substance that would have definitively made me believe Emma is falling in love with Hook. Something equivalent to their "good" exchange in the last winter finale where the l-bomb isn't actually dropped. So no, I didn't go into the episode realistically thinking one of those things would happen. But from a writing perspective, I absolutely thought that with everything Hook went through in 4A, the lengths he went to protect Emma and her family without her knowing, and the many secrets he kept from Emma, that there would have been more resolution to the storyline and way more than just a mere 2 minutes of screen time between the two of them. 

 

Of course there will be more development between them in the future, but the mid-season finale was the time to address everything that went down in 4A.

[Shanna Marie]

The clock tower was hidden and audience free (surely, Snow would have guarded the door).

Or Snow could have left them alone once the threat was over and headed to the town line to check on Belle.

 

But I can't bring myself to blame Emma for any of this because it was a choice that had nothing to do with her character. I think part of it was logistics, as they wanted to follow the action with Belle and Rumple, but then that meant picking up at least a few minutes later with the other side of the story, and then they wanted that scene to flow through to where Emma and Regina were together for Henry's arrival to tell about finding the blank books, and they were so busy arranging things for plot purposes that they didn't let their characters act like people.

 

I mean, any human, ever, would have put that heart back in right away rather than walking across town with a heart to the back hallway of a diner before putting it back in.

[The Cake is a Pie]

 

I don't know if the expectation was that we were going to get a big TLK or "I love you" confession and there's disappointment that we didn't get it or what, but it's one episode. It's a mid-season finale. Their relationship is still developing. They're not done and there's more to come.

 

My expectation was for Emma to do things that made sense for her character and sadly, I was disappointed. She barely seemed to care about anything in this episode, except for Regina having the sads. No emotional fall out from anything having to do with DQ and all those stolen memories. No urgency about needing to find a way home for Elsa and crew (oh, let's just sit in the diner doing nothing). Hook walks in and nonchalantly declares he's found a portal and while Emma is suspicious about his behavior, she's completely NOT suspicious that Gold is the one who conveniently gave him this information? Completely not suspicious that two men who have been mortal enemies for centuries were just hanging out together talking about portals? Is this the same Emma who supposedly had a lie-detecting superpower and acted on gut feelings? For all she knew, the portal could have been a trap.

Edited December 15, 2014 by The Cake is a Pie

[Dani-Ellie]

She may have thought Hook was acting weird, but she didn't care.

 

I'm sorry but I don't buy that she didn't care. I think she did care. The way she was looking at him when he grabbed her arm showed me she cared. She was afraid, not of him but for him. We know that Hook's life was in immediate danger but Emma did not. Maybe she thought that once she saw her friend off home (which I'm sure wasn't easy for Emma, either, watching a woman who'd quickly become a friend walk through a portal that who knows if it's permanent), she could track down what the hell was happening with Hook. We cut straight from Anna telling them about Gold to her and Snow finding Gold (and, related to my above point, we skipped the running from the mansion to the clock tower, so it's not necessarily immediately afterward). I'm willing to bet Emma put two and two together and was sure she would find Gold and Hook together.

 

But from a writing perspective, I absolutely thought that with everything Hook went through in 4A, the lengths he went to protect Emma and her family without her knowing, and the many secrets he kept from Emma, that there would have been more resolution to the storyline and way more than just a mere 2 minutes of screen time between the two of them.

 

I completely understand being disappointed in the writing. To be honest, I was a little, too. I'm arguing more against the stance that Emma is the worst girlfriend ever over a thirty-second scene that does not at all encompass their relationship as a whole.

[Serena]

What touched me more than anything is how Emma was holding Hook's heart. She's holding it like a little kid who's been entrusted with something valuable and breakable. She's got it cupped in her hands. I can more than believe that Emma loves Hook because she's holding his heart in her hands and she's treating it like a treasure.

Which was an acting choice. 80% of what makes this ship work nowadays is Colin and Jen.

[Rumsy4]

I did not expect a TLK, although I would not have been surprised if Hook had said the three words. My disappointment is with the lack of payoff for things they set up all season, and even in the episode. No, Emma is not the worst girlfriend ever, but she does come across as someone who doesn't necessarily prioritize Hook. It made no sense that Emma would do nothing after noticing how weird Hook was acting in the Diner scene. Call it a writing fail, if you will, but it's not up to the viewer to make up headcanons and backstories to fill in the gaps.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Rumsy4

[kili]

I'm sorry but I don't buy that she didn't care. I think she did care. The way she was looking at him when he grabbed her arm showed me she cared. She was afraid, not of him but for him.

 

But she did nothing about it. The non-urgent search for a portal took priority. She's sitting around a dinner chatting with her friend and two people she just met. Her boyfriend comes in acting all kinds of strange - in a town where strange behavior means something. She doesn't attempt to follow him or offer to take him to the hospital (he's just said that he's worried enough about an injury he's sustained during the curse that he's going to seek medical attention - and he is a guy who has laughed off a lot of injuries so for him to seek medical attenion it must be something serious - most people I know would offer to tag along - if they cared).

 

There is no reason she has to go to the house to check out the portal that instant. None. It could wait. Snow/Charming could give them a lift. Elsa already knows the way there.

 

Why does she need to go to the house with them when there is something seriously wrong with her boyfriend?  They were just sitting and having coffee!

 

Emma did not act like a human being in this episode. She hasn't behaved like one for most of this season. Maybe she is the one that got replaced by Zelena in the time portal.

Edited December 15, 2014 by kili

[YaddaYadda]

So I still don't understand why anyone expected a TLK.  An ILY, maybe.  A TLK, no!!!  TLKs happen when someone is actually cursed.  They are supposed to break a curse someone is under.  Neither one of them was under a curse.

 

Also, I really hate that the writing is getting Emma somewhat trashed.  Even during the episode when Hook gets a hold of her arm, it seemed to be building towards something tangible.  She is standing there worried about him and she doesn't believe him that his fine and that his "bruising" needs to be checked out because this is Hook who if he had his heart would have tagged along with her, who spent enough time with Elsa and knows Emma and Elsa have gotten close enough that Elsa leaving might actually be hard on Emma.

 

Hook never ever turns down Emma for like anything.  

 

So thank you writer for writing the road that leads to nowhere.  

[Curio]

So thank you writer for writing the road that leads to nowhere.

 

Ironically, the two writers for the mid-season finale episode: Adam & Eddy.

[Dani-Ellie]

Call it a writing fail, if you will, but it's not up to the viewer to make up headcanons and backstories to fill in the gaps.

 

I completely agree, and this is my main issue with Snow/Emma. The problem is, there's a pattern of behavior with Snow that enforces the struggle in their relationship for me. I don't see the same pattern of behavior with Emma and Hook.

 

But she did nothing about it. The non-urgent search for a portal took priority.

 

Except Anna and Elsa made it urgent: "Emma, we have to find a way back to Arendelle ... now." They looked like they were just having coffee but maybe it was a processing summit. None of them looked happy. It's not like they were chit-chatting and having a grand ol' time.

 

I don't know, maybe I just sympathize with Emma being pulled in 47 different directions. Everyone needs her all the time and she's only one person. Someone is going to get the short end of the stick simply because she cannot help everybody at once. And like I said above, Emma didn't know Hook was in immediate danger. Her immediate problem was "get the Frozen-ites back to Arendelle. Hook just gave us a way, let's get it done and then I can track down Hook." I didn't see any reason for her to believe that whatever was going on with Hook wouldn't hold for another hour while she got the Frozen crew home.

[YaddaYadda]

The chronology of everything was a mess.  They maybe should have resolved the heart issue when Emma knew there was something wrong, like followed him or something.  Then have the whole thing with Rumple happen, then Belle deal with Rumple then send the Frozenites back to Arendelle and then Operation I Could Give a Fuck.  

 

They had Snow and David out for one line each, with David being there to say Rumplestiltskin.  Snow went with Emma to the clock tower and was frozen by Rumple and we never saw her again.  The whole thing was just odd.

 

Again, just because I really enjoy repeating myself and I'm crabby as hell, the writing totally fucked Emma over.  

 

Ironically, the two writers for the mid-season finale episode: Adam & Eddy.

That's reassuring.  I'm sure they wrote that between chuckles and coffee

and now I'm worried about the episode they directed

 Hope they're proud of those ratings this morning.  And everyone needs to quit giving the Holidays excuse.  The show was that badly written for one thing and it has not been so great since say 407.  

[Emma]

We were talking about some of these same issues last year. I wager if any of us are around the same time next year we'll still be talking about the same issues. Until the writers start showing the pay off we'll continue to be left unsatisfied and having to fill in blanks.

It's unfortunate that the writers short change and assassinate characters who are not named Regina.

[Shanna Marie]

Her immediate problem was "get the Frozen-ites back to Arendelle. Hook just gave us a way, let's get it done and then I can track down Hook." I didn't see any reason for her to believe that whatever was going on with Hook wouldn't hold for another hour while she got the Frozen crew home.

On the other hand, Hook shows up, acting distinctly out of character, to deliver the message that his life-long enemy just happens to have found exactly the portal they needed and for some bizarre reason chose Hook, of all people, to deliver this message, and he's clearly not well at all, to the point that Emma notices it and knows something is terribly wrong. Him desperately clasping her arm while tonelessly saying he's fine is a big flashing neon light that all is not on the up-and-up.

 

And Emma's response is, "Oh, good, a portal, let's get you home." With no investigation whatsoever, no doubt, no suspicion. Let's all just head over and walk through this mysterious doorway that Rumple sent a very squirrely-acting Hook to tell them about. The fail for me is not that she didn't care for Hook, but rather that Emma, who is supposed to be street-smart and suspicious by nature, clearly picks up on one big red flag but doesn't even think to pursue it in checking everything else out. It was a raging case of Plot Stupidity, strictly aimed at getting the Frozen folks out of the picture ASAP, since they didn't have time to bother investigating the mysterious portal and its origins or safety.

[RadioGirl27]

I think you might have missed the episode where she fled in fear after she accidentally dropped a light post on him. When it happened Emma immediately ran to David, worried for him, but then when Snow admonished her Emma ran away in fear. Emma had a very visceral onscreen reaction to what happened with David and the fear of her powers because of it. There was an episode dedicated to it. Now how Emma came to accept her magic and that her parents "don't fear her"? Ya, that was given total short shrift (and pretty much everything else not related to Woegina was given short shrift.)

 

Maybe, instead of reaction, I should have said pay off, because I'm still waiting for a scene I know I would never get where Emma, Snow and David talk about what happened that day. But the other two cases have lacked of both a reaction and a pay off.

[Amerilla]

[quote]It was the bathroom hallway of a restaurant. It's not private. It's not safe. It's not hidden. And at any moment, somebody with full bladder, bad gas, a need to throw up Grannie's lasagne or a want for a quickie could appear in the hallway to interupt.

 

I literally laughed out loud in the checkout line at Target over this, kili. Thank you. I hate checkout lines.

 

I know everyone has different opinions on this, but one way to look at it is in comparison to, say, Mulan and Aurora in the same situtation. That scene was quiet, intimate, private, carefully lit...it imbued it with far more eroticism than they probably even intended.

 

This was a scene shot in a diner bathroom hallway during dinner service. Even knocking down the crowd noise and ambient lighting, it's still the hallway of the diner. What are some of the other things that have happened in this hallway? Last season, Regina dry-humped Robin there. I think Hook propositioned Tink back there in 3a. In S2, Lacey used it to dump Gold to make out with Nottingham by the dumpsters outside. It's a distinctly unromantic spot to try to carry out a romantic moment, and it was just a really odd location choice, even by Once standards, if it means nothing to the grander scheme of their relationship.  

 

But I can't bring myself to blame Emma for any of this because it was a choice that had nothing to do with her character.

That's the argument I usually make for Belle's non-reaction to things any minimally well-written story would provide a reaction to. It's a thin strand, but it generally holds me together.

[buildmeupbuttercup]

::waves::
Hi, first time poster loooooong time lurker here and on TWOP (early 2000's and the Alias days) and I have never felt the need to join and vent my displeasure with a show until today. I debated whether my first post should be in this thread or the writers thread but since most of my rage over last nights mid-season finale stems from lack of emotional payoff re: Emma's relationships I figured this rant belongs here.

I have been with this show and all its promise since the night of the Pilot. What a wonderfully innovative story of the “Lost Princess” finding her family in the “real world”. Yet, we all know how that has turned out...plotplotplotplotplotplotplot...HUGE piece of emotional drama for Emma/Snowing all resolved in a Full House-esque hearts, unicorns, and hugs way with no emotional payoff all to make room for...plotplotplotplot/Woegina.  I'm used to disappointment when it comes to the "Savior" of this show--who when was the last time she actually got to "save" an arc by herself--but I was actually naïve enough to believe that in an Emma-centric 4A there would be some emotional payoff with the CS/heart storyline but once again all we are left with are headcanons and fanwanks of what could have been.

I'm officially at a loss with how a show with this much promise can continually lead to so many disappointments. Heck I didn't even go into this episode with grandiose hopes! My expectations consisted of the writers (and in the case of this episode the CREATORS OF THEIR OWN DAMN SHOW) following through with the plot lines they created this season--and I was STILL disappointed!

Emma is one of my favorite characters on this show and I hate that she is constantly getting dragged out of character and through the mud by these writers. My issues with this episode have been hit on by others in this thread and others which only reinforces that I'm not just crazy and these are actually justifiable reasons. When did being the savior become more than just “I broke the damn curse and now you all have the free will to go and make/find your own happy ending” to “I have to go and physically bring everyone's happy ending to them like a damn door to door salesman.” Why can't Emma save the day and bring back her own happy ending just once?

 

I actually adore the movie Frozen (and I was one of the very few who loved and related to Anna more than Elsa in the movie) and adored the Frozen cast on this show but in the two episodes she was in Storybrooke Anna not only saved the day by "defeating" DQ but "oh yeah btw before I leave Rumple is totally EVIL and LIES ALL THE TIME. Byes!" And this is from an Anna fan! Please tell me why they couldn't at least throw Emma a bone and have her put the pieces together of the THREE times she noticed something was wrong with Hook and use her damn "superpower"--you know the one they clearly haven't forgotten about because they referenced it at least twice this season-- to see right through this Gold-is-awesome-and-found-a-totally-legit-portal for the characters he hasn't ONCE tried to lift a finger to help this half season? I mean she looks at Hook so lovingly and with so much concern and then he fights through the heart control to reach out to her and...nothing. She goes to the portal with Frozen gang and only worries about what Gold is up to when Anna gets knocked by the head by the Exposition Fairy. Then :whoosh:: she immediately knows EXACTLY where to find Gold (and we're not even sure she equates EvilGold= what’s wrong with Killian) and as soon as she gets there for her big hero/savior moment...nothing. Gold freezes her and Belle saves the day and Emma’s boyfriend who she “can’t lose”. I understand why it had to be Belle who stopped Gold and I’m THRILLED…but once again it takes Emma completely out of a story that had all the setup to be a huuuge emotional payoff for one of her relationships. Then instead of showing her running to Killian and reinserting his heart in the clock tower (again emotional payoff) we carry it all the way across town for a nice romantic scene in…the back hallway of the diner. For an arc that has been building to this for the last four episodes, we get a :30 second scene that gets cut short for shots and Operation Desperation.

 

I know we will never get any of the emotional payoff for Emma with any of her relationships (CS or Snowing) because I don’t think the writers seem to think there is anything wrong with the way any of this plays out.
From a TVLINE article from the spoiler thread (no spoilers included):

 

TVLINE | Some thought the Emma/Hook reunion felt a bit rushed, especially for someone carrying such a fear about losing the men she loves. Was that a time issue? That you had other story masters to serve?
KITSIS | We would have loved to do 40 minutes of them kissing, but we had a lot to get in.
HOROWITZ | We felt like it was a sweet moment between the two of them, her returning his heart and then the kiss. Could there have been a lot more? Yeah. But there’s still plenty of episodes left in the season.

KITSIS | We thought the kiss and the way she put his heart back said [a lot]…. But the truth is they’re a couple that is continuing, so we’d rather watch them grow together and see what happens.

 

Yep that about sums it up. That's the reason everyone is upset because we didn't get a 40 minute makeout session, not because there was no discussion or hell even any real dialogue that went with that scene. And yes there are "plenty of episodes left in the season" but 1.) with the 6-week time jump THAT THEY WROTE THEMSELVES there is no feasible way for them to cover the fallout adequately in 4B and 2.)I'm not new here I've been watching this show for 3.5 seasons I'm no longer naïve to think they will cover any of the ramifications during their next "ooh look three new villains arc". Just like I'm still waiting for all of the Emma/Snowing payoff from Season 2.

 

Sorry for the Debbie Downer first post. Hopefully there will be happier posts in my future.

[FabulousTater]

My issues with this episode have been hit on by others in this thread and others which only reinforces that I'm not just crazy and these are actually justifiable reasons.

Ooor, that we're crazy too. But it's okay because we can all be crazy together! Yay! ;-) Welcome, buildmeupbuttercup :)

[Souris]

Welcome to our crazy whirligig of cranky frustration and fun, buildmeupbuttercup! I think you jumped right in just fine. ;) This ep was so frustrating, wasn't it? You enumerated so many of the problems. I HATE how none of the producers or writers seem to care a jot about Emma. They handwave sometimes like they do, but they really don't. She's the gateway to the show for many fans and the character we relate to the most, but they don't see the value in that. She's been reduced to a prop for Regina, just like they did with Snow. It's disgusting, and I feel so bad for JMo, who puts about 10,000% more thought and care into Emma than the writers.

 

Oh, Alias. One of my many TV show scars.

[chrisvee]

So the writers came up with the great idea that Emma and Regina should do shots to seal the deal on Operation Batsh$! Crazy. That meant Hook had to get his heart back in a hallway near the johns so there would be a reason for Emma to meet Regina.

I will never forget staring at that scene and wondering incredulously why public restrooms were her choice of venue. ::sigh::

Thank God that JMo knows how to sell a scene. Between holding Hook's heart like a precious treasure and the forehead lean after the kiss, I know she cares even if the writing continues to be truly terrible.

Edited December 16, 2014 by chrisvee

[Curio]

Great first post, buildmeupbuttercup! I couldn't agree more with everything you said. Especially this part:
 

I'm officially at a loss with how a show with this much promise can continually lead to so many disappointments. Heck I didn't even go into this episode with grandiose hopes! My expectations consisted of the writers (and in the case of this episode the CREATORS OF THEIR OWN DAMN SHOW) following through with the plot lines they created this season--and I was STILL disappointed!

 
Overall, I really enjoyed 4A for the most part. I knew going into the finale there would be absolutely no way they could cover everything properly in the 42 minutes allotted. But still, if you had told me before the episode that we would a) not see any significant reactions from Emma the entire episode, b) she wouldn't get to end up saving her boyfriend, and c) her reunion with the guy she considers herself "together" with lasted exactly 23 seconds and didn't resolve anything from the previous episodes... I would have called you crazy. Heck, Emma didn't even get to say anything to Elsa, her only non-family friend she has made on the show in forever!
 
It's like I expect nothing and I'm still let down.

[YaddaYadda]

I feel as though all of us have been really scarred by the Winter Finale.  Oddly enough, I'm usually able to move on just fine from these things, but I'm just still angry about this whole thing much as I've tried to rationalize it (this was all about Rumple and Belle and then they had to set up Operation I Could Give a Fuck and so on...) the truth is, I still find myself completely short-changed by what happened with Hook and Emma, like we are missing all these scenes in between that explain how Emma jumped to that conclusion that Killian was with Rumple in the tower.  Did she come back to town and bumped into Belle who was following the gauntlet?  I mean the elevator never went back down, so maybe Belle was with Emma and Snow inside and stayed inside because they knew Rumple would try and do something to them...

 

Actually, after reading some of these articles from last night, I think the writers think that the viewers just want kissing and that we are just a bunch of very shallow people who believe that kissing solves problems.  I can imagine that's the way A&E solve their problems now.

 

Wife: You're an idiot!!  I asked for lettuce, not cabbage!

Adam/Eddie: Give us a kiss!  Problem solved.

 

All of us would have been able to come up with something a hell of a lot better without throwing Emma under the bus re: shots with Regina.  If Emma had put the heart back in the clock tower and then the next scene was Emma and Hook walking together in Granny's and seen Woegina wallowing in her misery (although I have to say, she has actually grown a bit, but I could have done without the OQ scenes, like all of them).  It would have made so much more sense.

 

But a de-hearted Hook running about town doing his enemy's bidding and Emma sensing there was something way off with him, tearful goodbyes that actually mean nothing because that was supposed to be the last time he saw her, but then he pops back up.  It would have been so much better if he had stayed missing.  But can't have that payoff either.

 

I feel utterly screwed over by the writers and I really hate that Emma is the one who is getting slammed for it.  As someone said upthread, it wasn't Emma (or Elsa for that matter) who saved the town from Ingrid, it was Anna and that letter.  And clearly, Emma would never have figured out anything if it wasn't for Anna.  And Emma was so hyped up to be the one who defeated Zelena, but she wasn't because Regina can pull light magic out of her ass.

 

I think the debate should be why does Emma have magic?  Why do people see her as the Savior?  I wish she'd just say fuck it and tell people to go to Regina or write Anna in Arendelle.

[Dani-Ellie]

I feel utterly screwed over by the writers and I really hate that Emma is the one who is getting slammed for it.

 

Replying in the writers thread.

[Curio]

I feel as though all of us have been really scarred by the Winter Finale. Oddly enough, I'm usually able to move on just fine from these things, but I'm just still angry about this whole thing

 

It's because we know there isn't an episode next week to look forward to that could possibly rectify the mistakes in this episode. We know there's a 6 week jump in the show's timeline, which means everything that should have been brought up in the finale will never get brought up again. We know there were important missing scenes in the finale that the writers refuse to admit they cut for time. We were mislead the entire season that we'd get some dramatic resolution to Hook dying and how Emma might react to that, yet we get nothing in the end. And now we have to wait three months for a plot about predestination, which seems to go against everything this show stands for. Our emotions were toyed with, plain and simple.

 

If Emma had put the heart back in the clock tower and then the next scene was Emma and Hook walking together in Granny's and seen Woegina wallowing in her misery (although I have to say, she has actually grown a bit, but I could have done without the OQ scenes, like all of them). It would have made so much more sense.

 

Honestly, why couldn't we have gotten this instead? It just seems like Basic Storytelling 101. Hell, it's just predicting what a normal human being would do in that situation. The moment Emma got unfrozen, wouldn't the next logical step be for her to run up the stairs, hug her boyfriend, and put the heart back in right away? They could have had literally the exact same conversation as they did in Granny's if they wanted to save time, but just have the damn location be in the clock tower. Now the cinematographer in me is imagining what a nice visual it would have been to have Emma and Killian standing in front of the backlit clock, creating a silhouette look. I could maybe see Hook not wanting his heart put back in the same place he was nearly killed, but then they should have done it in a location that has significance to Emma and Killian as a couple, like near the table where they kissed in the Season 3 finale. But instead, we're treated to a make out session in the same location Hook hit on Tink and Robin made out with Regina in front of Henry. Like, do the writers and directors even think about how these things come off to the audience?

 

Reading the interviews from Adam & Eddy, I get the sense that they honestly don't understand why people are upset. It's like they think, "Oh, well we gave Emma a happy ending with her boyfriend. Why aren't you guys satisfied?!" 

Edited December 16, 2014 by Curio

[Rumsy4]

Count me in as someone feeling miserable and burned buy the writers. Emma was stage scenery this episode. While Belle deservedly got her moment, Emma and Hook most definitely did not. And no, just because CS is still together doesn't mean we ought to feel content. Even though both OQ and Rumbelle broke up, the emotional payoffs of those scenes were well done (yes--even OQ, with Regina tearing up that picture). Emma was shortchanged saving the day during this arc (yet again), and she didn't even get to save her boyfriend. It's like she lost her edge once she accepted Storybrooke as her home. She was way too trusting of Gold all season long, and ignored her instincts when it came to Hook's odd behavior three times (compare this will her lie detector about Tamara and Panry). The whole arc of her parents fearing her magic was tacked on because of Frozen, and the payoff for that was also minimal. Not to mention forcing a budding friendship with Regina, which the latter does not even want. Poor poor Emma. And now, Emma has joined Operation Stoopid, and is totally okay that Regina has been using their son to find her Happy Ending. Way to ruin a character!

Edited December 16, 2014 by Rumsy4

[YaddaYadda]

Reading the interviews from the Adam & Eddy, I get the sense that they honestly don't understand why people are upset. It's like they think, "Oh, well we gave Emma a happy ending with her boyfriend. Why aren't you guys satisfied?!"

 

Because they think the people who watch this show are shallow!  If I want makeout and sex, I'll watch HBO plus those shows are generally better written.

[Dani-Ellie]

XrystalPond, those are very valid points that I wish had been made yesterday instead of just slamming her as the worst girlfriend ever, a user, and taking the absence of a scene between the heart return and the drinking with Regina as damning evidence she just left Hook in the hallway. I fully agree there should have been more. I know how frustrating it is to expect more and not get it. But when the conclusions being drawn from a thirty-second scene don't match anything that's come before it, I'm sorry but I'm going to cry foul.

 

I completely agree that Emma's blind faith made no sense, just from a street-wise-character sense. However, we also have a lot more information than Emma. This was the exact same problem people had with the "Sidney and Regina are playing her" storyline from season one. It's the same problem people had with her disbelief in the curse. We know so much more than the character does, and it makes the character look dim, because we're all, "Emma, the answer is right in front of your face!" but she doesn't know the answer is in front of her face because she doesn't even know there's a question being posed.

 

We know Rumple almost hatted her. She does not. She thinks all that was behind that door was something that was going to take away her magic. We know Rumple's been blackmailing Hook. She does not. We know Rumple has Hook's heart. She does not. As far as she knows, Rumple's been nothing but helpful to her. Granted, he usually has his own reasons for doing so, but what has he done to her directly in recent episodes? To her face and not behind her back? (This is an honest question, because I'm trying to remember.) As far as she knows, they're on okay terms. She saved his life, he was teaching her how to use magic, he proved he wasn't trying to kill Henry in Neverland, everything in 3B was because of Zelena. Hook lied and told her Rumple gave him his hand back, essentially, out of the goodness of his heart. So while it may seem naive for her to trust him, as far back as I can remember, there hasn't been a reason for her not to other than "but he's Rumple."

[ShadowFacts]

The ruination of Emma's character started for me when she came back from the past with Marian and didn't bark back at Regina when Regina started ranting about her being just like her mother.  When she had just seen Regina burn her mother alive.  I could see the writing on the wall.  Now in addition to having her want to be BFFs with Regina, the writers can't be bothered to let Emma have her own place (feeble excuses about budget) or let her relationship with Hook have any resonance.  They let her take things at face value in Storybrooke, when she should have a bunch of residual skepticism about these magic-wielders. 

[YaddaYadda]

All this talk about Emma trusting Gold...the worst part about it is that she believed he might have been lying when she went for his help with Elsa and Hook.  Did she ever ask Elsa and Hook how they managed to find the Snow Queen?  I mean that's another plot hole.  She knew where to find them because Hook left her a message.  But all the crazy started right there when Hook went back to Gold and told him he knew everything.  

 

And we are all ragging on Emma, but Hook really deserves his licks in this for being generally stupid and almost getting himself killed twice, but he's good at surviving.  No, Killian, you're good at surviving when fighting someone of equal strength with a sword.  But when it comes to magic, you were just born under a freakin' lucky star!  Belle or Emma saving your life doesn't make you all that good at it.  He looked like an idiot to satisfy the Rumple plot just like Emma took a verbal lashing from Regina in 405 to satisfy whatever...I still don't even know what that was all about.

[Emma]

I feel as though all of us have been really scarred by the Winter Finale. Oddly enough, I'm usually able to move on just fine from these things, but I'm just still angry about this whole thing...

I feel utterly screwed over by the writers and I really hate that Emma is the one who is getting slammed for it.

Enjoyed your entire post but especially these 2 key points.

I can always put down a book or turn off the TV and move on when something has ticked me off. But I'm like a dog with a bone and just can't let go here.

I'm just stunned that we were screwed over like that. Again. And it's so much worse because Adam and Eddy don't even understand why. Absolutely clueless and insulting as to what they think we want.

Emma's my favorite character (big surprise to you all I know) and she deserves so much more. And the sad thing is it would just take a tweak or two here and there to make it better. A differfent cut between scenes or a simple line but the writers just don't give a shit about her character enough.

I really wish I could quit the show. But I'm here until the boozing, side-eyeing, table flipping, curse spewing, stress balling, bitter end.

[Serena]

I remember JMo a while ago saying "I don't know how yet [because she hadn't filmed the finale] but Emma is gonna help Hook get his heart back. That's what girlfriends do!" - so, it's not like we're crazy. I'm pretty sure JMo was expecting the same thing and was disappointed. However, unlike Lana with the whole Regina/Henry thing, I don't think Jen is the type of actress who goes to the writers demanding they change the show to suit her taste. Even thought the show would be 100 better if she did.

[Shanna Marie]

You know, after the whole, huge plot line about Emma learning to control her magic and embrace her power, why was she utterly powerless against Rumple? Couldn't she have fought back at least a teeny bit? That would even have been a fine bit of irony, that it was his scheme to steal her power that led to her embracing her power well enough to hold her own against him. Belle still could have saved the day, and I think she needed to be the one to defeat him, but Emma could have played an active role in serving as a diversion and holding him off long enough for Belle to sneak in behind him and get the dagger. Then it could be Emma helping save Hook while Belle goes on to strip the Dark One of his powers.

 

But every time, in the big confrontation with the Big Bad, they end up with Emma frozen and helpless while someone else swoops in to save the day. I guess they don't understand the power of a team. Isn't that supposed to be a villain's weakness, that villains are seldom team players and therefore don't understand that several less powerful people can band together and become more powerful?

[The Cake is a Pie]

You know, after the whole, huge plot line about Emma learning to control her magic and embrace her power, why was she utterly powerless against Rumple? Couldn't she have fought back at least a teeny bit? That would even have been a fine bit of irony, that it was his scheme to steal her power that led to her embracing her power well enough to hold her own against him. Belle still could have saved the day, and I think she needed to be the one to defeat him, but Emma could have played an active role in serving as a diversion and holding him off long enough for Belle to sneak in behind him and get the dagger. Then it could be Emma helping save Hook while Belle goes on to strip the Dark One of his powers.

 

THIS. Why is it everyone on this forum can come up with better/more sensical action that the writers can? All those episodes about having magic and embracing it and Emma is still utterly useless at the end. Emma should have been able to distract/delay Rumple long enough for Belle to get there. Hook's heart should have been restored in the clock tower, then they go to the diner. The end results (Rumple over the town line, Emma having shots with Regina) would still be the same, only we wouldn't be as frustrated with how they got there. 

 

I hate that Rumple is so powerful that The Savior can just be neutralized with a wave of his hand. And that Emma's role in "saving" Hook was just to shove his heart back in. Anyone could have done that, no magic required (Mulan did it for Aurora). 

[Stuffy]

We had two Emma flashbacks this season and still don't know what's up with the flower tattoo.

[Emma]

I've given up on the tattoo. They've been saying we'd learn the importance of it since season 1. I'd rather stick with my head cannon then whatever they'll pull out of their ass in season 9.

[daxx]

We had two Emma flashbacks this season and still don't know what's up with the flower tattoo.

I suppose we will have to wait for the post coffee scene, Hook runs his thumb across her wrist raises it up to give a kiss looks through his eyelashes at Emma and asks her about it.

Oh, sorry, I forgot, we don't get nice things with this show...

[Dianthus]

I'm late to the party, but I'd also like to welcome the newest inmate to our asylum. ;-)

[buildmeupbuttercup]

Aww thanks everyone for such a warm welcome. I have a feeling this whole forum will be my sanity, as I'm still fuming a day later.

 

THIS. Why is it everyone on this forum can come up with better/more sensical action that the writers can? All those episodes about having magic and embracing it and Emma is still utterly useless at the end. Emma should have been able to distract/delay Rumple long enough for Belle to get there. Hook's heart should have been restored in the clock tower, then they go to the diner. The end results (Rumple over the town line, Emma having shots with Regina) would still be the same, only we wouldn't be as frustrated with how they got there. 

 

I hate that Rumple is so powerful that The Savior can just be neutralized with a wave of his hand. And that Emma's role in "saving" Hook was just to shove his heart back in. Anyone could have done that, no magic required (Mulan did it for Aurora). 

Yep I think that's why I'm still so disappointed with this ending to the Emma-centric 4A arc that started so promisingly. What was the point? It was so important to embrace her magic but it didn't even matter in the end and that's what I feel cheated about A&E not that I didn't get a full 40 minutes of makeout time. Emma is relegated to supporting actress in her own life story and events.

 

Another reason I'm still mad? The four interviews A&E gave (posted in the spoilers thread) and each is filled with their own unique rage inducing quotes. I think the TV Line one takes the cake though because in addition to the "40 minute kissing" mocking quote there is this one and I can't seem to let it go (haha I went there):

TVLINE | I very much enjoyed the moment where Regina welcomed Emma to Operation Mongoose.
KITSIS | Even though Regina did the right thing and she let Robin Hood go, we loved the idea of everyone rallying around to help her — which is a lot different from two years ago, when they all went to get dinner and left her on the side of the road.

This response offends the Emma fangirl in me on two fronts so let me break it down:

"we loved the idea of everyone rallying around to help her"

When has Emma had everyone rallying around to help her? Sure she was the "leader" of the Nevengers but that was more "let's just agree to get along and not kill each other for Henry" than rallying around her. Was it when Elsa, Hook, and Snowing went looking for her in 408 and then Snowing gave up? Elsa and Hook* continued after her but Snowing didn't get back on board until Woegina knocked common sense into them (nope nothing wrong there) then they walked to save her...and we all know why... so Snow could "rally around Regina". Snowing "rallied around her" with their "we don't fear your magic because you will save us" bullshit but again it is always when it benefits them or BDO. So yeah it makes me sick with this "we loved the idea of everyone rallying around to help her" shit with Regina when Emma doesn't get that support from her OWN FAMILY.

 

"which is a lot different from two years ago, when they all went to get dinner and left her on the side of the road"

I'm seriously done with these guys. They are really hung up on this issue (which they wrote/signed off on!) because this is not the first time they refer to it. By "left her on the side of the road" they must have meant "left her in Gold's shop" after they were reunited as a family after 28 years...because of REGINA'S OWN CURSE. She was also going to destroy the portal bringing back Snow and Emma until Henry stopped her at the last minute. So we will be treated to the "emotional payoff" of everyone rallying to help Regina after her widdle feewings were hurt when the Mean Girls didn't invite her to dinner (after all the shit she pulled was still fresh) but Emma has to stand there while her mother confesses to her father that she (Emma) isn't enough for her (Snow) and she wants a do over baby--an issue which they reiterated in 407--and we get nothing. I'm not going to rehash all the ways they failed to even remotely address the issues that were laid out in 407 because it has been said a million times over here, but to insinuate that Woegina's pain of not being accepted after she was brutal to everyone in both her Evil Queen and Mayor Regina days is worthy of payoff over the 162874935 issues they have thrust upon Emma or any of these other characters actually insults me as a viewer. You know who was literally (not figuratively) left on the side of the road? Emma. Who was responsible for that? But yes let's spend 4B completely assassinating Emma's character and helping Regina get her happy ending.

 

Oy this show.

 

*And this is why I'm a CS shipper not because of the OMG kissing scenes A&E believes we crave but because Hook is one of the only characters that rallies behind Emma and gives her support when she needs it--something that, again, can't even be said about her own family.

[YaddaYadda]

Hook is one of the only characters that rallies behind Emma and gives her support when she needs it--something that, again, can't even be said about her own family.

 

That very, very true.  Hook support as been the one thing that has been unfailing.  (To be fair, David tries but the writers don't really care about him, so he's really shortchanged).  So bringing that up also brings up this...the whole Diner scene when Hook walked in and the first thing he said was about how Emma may be the Savior but he saved the day.  That was so very out of character (since Rumple was speaking through Hook).  Rumple was basically openly mocking Emma, the Savior.  

 

I think the writers are well aware that Emma hasn't saved anything since S1.  But talk about pouring salt in that wound where they build her up for something great before handing it over to someone else.

[snarkastic]

TVLINE | I very much enjoyed the moment where Regina welcomed Emma to Operation Mongoose.

KITSIS | Even though Regina did the right thing and she let Robin Hood go, we loved the idea of everyone rallying around to help her — which is a lot different from two years ago, when they all went to get dinner and left her on the side of the road.

 

 

This quote bothers me because the 'two years ago' implies that they're talking about when everyone was celebrating Snow and Emma's return from the Enchanted Forest, and you know who went out to talk to Regina and wanted her to stay? EMMA. So how is Emma and Henry (that's it, there is no 'everyone'. The quote is about Operation Stupid, not in general) rallying around her now different from Emma and Henry rallying around her then? 

[Dianthus]

@YaddaYadda: I hadn't really looked at it that way, but you're right. Worse yet, Rumple is openly mocking Emma in the form of the man who has been her greatest/only source of support for some time. Yeesh. He's done so much worse, but that's still pretty low. It also feeds into the big lie he was gonna feed Belle about saving "everyone he could."

[Camera One]

 she has been shown to have one emotion on display at most times - Anger. That's what I was missing most from Sunday's episode. She learns/discerns from Anna that Rumple's a lying liar who lies. She may or may not have figured out that her boyfriend was jeopardy because of that. She bursts into a room/clock tower to take on said liar with her mother and gets out two words before being zapped into place. I wanted some anger from her in that scene. I got nothing. 

 

Emma better be allowed to be angry when Rumple shows his face in town again.  Are we supposed to believe Hook didn't have time to inform Emma about Rumple's ENTIRE plan, including wanting to Hat her?  Because the offhand tsk tsk Rumple has been a bad boy that Emma and Regina shared certainly didn't indicate that.

[ParadoxLost]

Emma better be allowed to be angry when Rumple shows his face in town again.  Are we supposed to believe Hook didn't have time to inform Emma about Rumple's ENTIRE plan, including wanting to Hat her?  Because the offhand tsk tsk Rumple has been a bad boy that Emma and Regina shared certainly didn't indicate that.

 

I think hatting Emma will be at the bottom of the list of things that bother Emma because he did his usual 'let's make a deal' to make Emma share part of the blame for that, at least in her mind. I think Regina and Emma would have a huge problem that Rumpel's plan included taking Henry.