Emma Swan: 1000% done with your infuriating optimism

[Mathius]

I think the writers are well aware that Emma hasn't saved anything since S1. But talk about pouring salt in that wound where they build her up for something great before handing it over to someone else.

Technically not true, since she saved Snow from Cora in 2x09, and she saved people frequently in 3A (everyone on the ship in 3x01, Neal in 3x06, Hook and Neal in 3x07, the Lost Boys and partially Henry in 3x09, and everyone through exposing Panry's ruse in 3x10 before it was too late to do anything.) She also saved Henry in 3x19, Hook in 3x20, and Marian in 3x22.

Speaking of 3A, I'm going to have to wax nostalgic about it again, since in it, Emma:

- Saved everyone -and the whole mission- right off the bat during the mermaid's storm

- Kept the team stable by becoming their leader

- Located Pan's camp through accepting herself as an orphan

- Figured out a potential exit strategy in Baelfire's old cave

- Rescued Neal, who was the one who could help them execute their exit strategy

- Used her magic to trap Pan's Shadow, who was the KEY to the exit strategy

- Saved Hook and Neal's lives and then telling them off for their love triangle BS

- Cut Pan with a sword which made both him and the heroes aware of his present vulnerability

- Calmed Regina down from her hysteria and gave her the reigns in saving Henry

- Got through to the Lost Boys and learned where Pan was hiding

- Exposed Panry's whole deception, which is what allowed everyone to be saved

3A was the last time Emma really felt like THE hero of the show, who didn't get shortchanged.

I miss that writing for Emma greatly.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Mathius

[Emma]

I don't even know what to expect for Emma in the next arc. My expectations are at rock bottom.

[Dani-Ellie]

Mine are, too. I'm fully expecting her to be pretty much shelved since she got so much attention this arc. (This way, when we get Emma things, I'll be happy since I'm expecting nothing. ;))

[YaddaYadda]

I don't think Emma will be all that utilized in 4B.  I think 4B will be Regina centric from ALL sides.

[Emma]

The only reason I would hope she's on the shelf pretty much is so that she has very little to do with Operation Dumb and Dumber. With my luck though she'll be heavily involved with that.

[Faemonic]

I finally watched Heroes and Villains! Was it just me or was Emma's voice a little off? She said "remains" when I would have thought she would say, " 's still there" and "it appears so" when I thought she'd say, "Looks like it!"

[Camera One]

Maybe the writers forgot their glasses and thought they were writing dialogue for Elsa.  

[Curio]

I finally watched Heroes and Villains! Was it just me or was Emma's voice a little off? She said "remains" when I would have thought she would say, " 's still there" and "it appears so" when I thought she'd say, "Looks like it!"

 

Maybe her boyfriend is rubbing off on her; those are both responses I could imagine Hook saying.

[KingOfHearts]

They seem to have demoted the savior from saving the day to bringing people happy endings.

 

 

Is Emma really the only person who can help though? The only reason she was the Savior originally was because she was the product of True Love. She doesn't need the whitest of white magic to set Regina up on a blind date. Emma takes on this extra responsibility that isn't hers just so she can fit in and impress Henry. I don't understand why she can't just be a mother, daughter or sheriff. If she has to be a messiah to get Henry's attention, then he's going to be very disappointed in life with many things. We're not all perfect heroes, kid.

 

I really think the "Savior" title is just the writers way of keeping Emma "special" without actually giving her an original new role. They can put her on the backburner all they want and still claim she's powerful. It's like that crap Hook was spewing about her defeating Pan and Zelena. We know where that really came from.

Edited January 4, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

Emma takes on this extra responsibility that isn't hers just so she can fit in and impress Henry. I don't understand why she can't just be a mother, daughter or sheriff. If she has to be a messiah to get Henry's attention, then he's going to be very disappointed in life with many things. We're not all perfect heroes, kid.

If we're looking from a character background way why Emma would take on the Savior mantle? 

 

Emma was not a loved person.  She does not expect love, particularly unconditional, just-because-you're-Emma, love.  She would likely have completely internalized that in order for her to have importance and meaning in the lives of the people she wants as family, there needs to be a reason for them to want her.

 

Why do they want her?  She's the "savior".

 

It's been repeatedly reinforced by Snow, David, Henry, and even characters she's not been particularly attached to in the past (Regina, Rumple) that being the savior makes keeping her around worthwhile. 

 

At times, it's been the primary reason they were interested in her--it's the reason Henry tracked her down, and for a good chunk of season 3, that's what Snow and David were interested in;  not Emma, but the savior.

 

I could see her being reluctant to completely get rid of the savior mantle, simply because what if her "family" loses interest in her?  They have before. 

[Dani-Ellie]

Completely agree. Ingrid even brought this up ("How many times have you felt more like a savior than their daughter?"). And yes, I know Ingrid was emotionally manipulating Emma, but the emotional manipulation wouldn't have worked so well if there weren't nuggets of truth in what she was saying.

 

Emma expressed to Elsa that she doesn't even know what the hell being the savior means, but even after that, she keeps using the title. And I think she keeps using the title because everyone else does. Right now, she thinks it's on her to bring back the happy endings (because that's what Henry told her that's what being the savior is). Basically, I think she's trying to find a way to matter to these people.

 

Because Emma Swan has never been enough for anyone. Even Ingrid, the only person who was ever going to adopt her, was looking for her because of her powers. Emma Swan as herself was just a little girl who didn't matter and didn't think she ever would.

 

She can't see that she matters because she's Emma Swan. She thinks she matters because she's the savior. And frankly, the more others harp on savior, savior, savior, the more it reinforces this notion.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Dani-Ellie

[Mari]

Yes.

 

And it can't help that last season Snow and David wrote her off after they got back to the Enchanted forest and started on baby do-over, until they thought they needed her and her saviorness to save them.

 

Part of it is the way the show is plotplotplot, but it's ended up in a relationship dynamic where they are mostly interested and invested in her because she helps/helped them, not because she's actually important to them as a person.

 

If that's the case, how do you let go of the one thing that really seems to matter to these people?

Edited January 4, 2015 by Mari

[daxx]

Because Emma Swan has never been enough for anyone. Even Ingrid, the only person who was ever going to adopt her, was looking for her because of her powers. Emma Swan as herself was just a little girl who didn't matter and didn't think she ever would.

 

She can't see that she matters because she's Emma Swan. She thinks she matters because she's the savior. And frankly, the more others harp on savior, savior, savior, the more it reinforces this notion.

This is exactly why Hook is so good for her. He adores all of her, for herself. Not because she is the savior, not for her magic, for Emma because he knows how amazing Emma is. Which is Why it was so important for him to stress to her in New York City Serenade that he came back for her, not her family, not to save the town, just for her.

[KingOfHearts]

 

If we're looking from a character background way why Emma would take on the Savior mantle?

It's A&E that set this up though. Instead of exploring why and how Emma's parents love her, they stuck a "Savior" sticker on it. If Emma is constantly resorting to a title to keep herself relevant and loved, it's because the writers wrote the other characters to feel the way they feel. If this were any other show, I'd think Snow and Charming were being intentionally written as uninterested parents.

 

 

This is exactly why Hook is so good for her. He adores all of her, for herself. Not because she is the savior, not for her magic, for Emma because he knows how amazing Emma is. Which is Why it was so important for him to stress to her in New York City Serenade that he came back for her, not her family, not to save the town, just for her.

This. Hook is the only one who wants Emma for Emma.

Edited January 4, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[OnceUponAJen]

Actually, I've been liking Charming's role with Emma, especially this season! He's been supportive and despite them being about the same age, there's a really good father-daughter feel to their relationship. I think the Snow-Emma relationship needs some work, though. I would love to see them have an adventure together; I liked the early S2 interactions between them.

[Dani-Ellie]

It's A&E that set this up though. Instead of exploring why and how Emma's parents love her, they stuck a "Savior" sticker on it. If Emma is constantly resorting to a title to keep herself relevant and loved, it's because the writers wrote the other characters to feel the way they feel.

 

That's meta-level analysis, though. Of course the as-written relationship suffers from a case of writer disinterest. However, that disinterest informs what ends up becoming canon. For example, we weren't shown Charming and Snow grieving Emma during the Missing Year, although one would think they would be. Then they think of her when their asses are in the fire. If the writers hadn't been so disinterested in everyone's grief but Regina's or had anyone other than Charming telling Neal that Emma and Henry were lost for good, it would have looked less like they only were interested in getting back to her when they needed her.

 

But the writers didn't. And the way it played out, it looked to me exactly like they were only interested in getting back to her because they needed her.

 

Seeing what has played out onscreen, I can see why an in-show Emma would believe that she needs to be the savior to be loved. There's precedent for it (way back in 1x08 where she lets slip to Mary Margaret that she doesn't quite know where she'd fit into Henry's life if she's not the hero). Everyone around her keeps pushing savior. She herself wasn't enough for her parents not to surrender to Neverland. They didn't fight to stay with her; she fought to stay with them. They told her they cast the second curse to get to her so she could fight Zelena. It wasn't "we missed you" or "we wanted to be with you" or "we couldn't live without you." It was " we needed you to save us." Whether they mean to or not, all they're doing when they tell her things like that is throwing more fuel on the "they only want me around because they need me" fire.

[Rumsy4]

Charming gets Emma in a way that Snow doesn't. That makes it easier for Emma to confide in him, or listen to him. Snow is almost always shutting het down. However, I don't see that Charming prioritizes Emma any more than Snow does. He didn't mention Emma as a reason why Snow should leave Neverland. He never mentioned her when Snow was about to crush his heart to cast the second Curse. And yes--he felt guilty about losing Emma in the missing year, but that was more to do with his self-doubt over being a good father. He and Snow both seemed resigned to never seeing Emma again. Emma can't help knowing all this--that's why Ingrid was able to push her buttons so easily. Sadly, I doubt we'll get any more bonding with the extreme focus on plot and Regina.

[Mari]

Seeing what has played out onscreen, I can see why an in-show Emma would believe that she needs to be the savior to be loved. There's precedent for it (way back in 1x08 where she lets slip to Mary Margaret that she doesn't quite know where she'd fit into Henry's life if she's not the hero). Everyone around her keeps pushing savior.

Even Henry's initial interest in her wasn't "I want my biological Mom because she has to be more sane and loving than this psycho." it was "Get my biological Mom because she's the savior and can break the curse." Emma being his biological Mom was just the weapon he used to get her to Storybrooke.

 

Of course, their relationship didn't stay at that particular spot, but it kind of set a precedent where Henry expects her to be perfect.  The same boy who is declaring Regina a hero for managing to not kill anyone this week had a completely different reaction to Emma not being completely honest about what happened with Neal. 

 

It makes sense he'd be upset about that, but it would be one more example of Emma experiencing how fragile her relationship with even Henry was.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Mari

[YaddaYadda]

The only good thing that could come out of the quest for the book is that everyone is ultimately responsible for their own happiness and Emma can finally give up the whole I'm the savior.  She might need to rescue the town because she's not the person who will walk away from a car wreck when she sees one, but she doesn't have to be burdened with everyone else's lives.  Bringing back happy endings was her breaking the curse so that people can remember and reclaim who they were.  The rest is up to them, not her.

 

Why should Emma put the breaks on anything good in her life because some person (I'm looking at you Regina) isn't happy with her life?

 

And her parents need to stop seeing her as the savior and just look at her as their daughter who might be a grown ass woman but who still might need them from time to time.

 

Also, Henry needs to STFU.  

[ShadowFacts]

 

The only good thing that could come out of the quest for the book is that everyone is ultimately responsible for their own happiness and Emma can finally give up the whole I'm the savior.  She might need to rescue the town because she's not the person who will walk away from a car wreck when she sees one, but she doesn't have to be burdened with everyone else's lives.  Bringing back happy endings was her breaking the curse so that people can remember and reclaim who they were.  The rest is up to them, not her.

 

Thinking you have to make anyone happy or fix someone's life, purely a recipe for dysfunction.  Not her job.  Dr. Hopper, calling Dr. Hopper.

[Camera One]

I think the Writers use the whole Savior thing as convenience.  They use it to define Emma's role... very ironic considering the initial reason she was the Savior no longer applies, as KingofHearts said.  In fact, the whole Savior concept is one of the many vague and ill-defined aspects of world-building on this show.  They have Emma say she's the Savior as if it's a permanent job position that she is burdened with.  They even use that as a springboard to give Emma character moments, and issues such as self-esteem and self-acceptance.  Because it's so ill-defined, other characters using the word Savior ends up sounding like a big deal even when they're meant to be innocuous "rah rah you can do it" pep talks.  The fact that Emma struggles with accepting unconditional love is I think one of the more interesting aspects of the show.

[Shanna Marie]

There was something said in the villains thread about how Emma is too powerful, and that got me started thinking about how Emma's magic has actually been used on the show. She may theoretically be super powerful, but it hasn't really mattered in the plot. The only things I can think of that she's deliberately done for any real practical use have been:

1. Temporarily sealed a room to try to keep Cora out
2. Provided backup power for Regina to stop the failsafe
3. Lit a candle
4. Freed Hook from the ice to save him from Ingrid's trap
5. Unsealed Regina's vault so she could use the power of True Hate

 

Am I missing anything? Otherwise, her magic has been unintentional (Cora not able to take her heart, waking up the magic wand to open the portal), harmful (boiling the bottle, blowing up the sheriff's station, knocking over the lamp, hurting Henry), or purely for demonstration or entertainment purposes (creating the floating bridge, trying to cheer up a moping Hook with little pranks, making fireworks).

 

When it comes to the major confrontations or plot turning points since realizing she had magic, where has Emma been?

• She was the deciding factor in Regina being able to stop the failsafe (yay!)
• She was tied to a tree while No Regrets Regina trapped Pan
• She was frozen while Rumple took out Pan
• She was stripped of her powers and incapacitated while Regina took down Zelena
• She opened the time portal (yay! But probably only because no one else but Hook was around)
• She stood there helplessly while Anna got through to Ingrid and then Ingrid broke the spell
• She was frozen while Belle saved Hook's heart

 

And yet the poor woman has been conditioned to believe that she's required to be some kind of savior. Talk about material for a complex -- make her think it's her responsibility to save everyone, and then constantly prevent her from being able to do so.

[YaddaYadda]

I re-watched the episode last night where she has the talk with David about moments (which is one of my favorite scenes) where she is sensing something is off with Henry and then she talks about how she is a magnet for the bad things and David is trying to convince her to just live.

 

Since Emma doesn't really get to save the day, she should grab her boyfriend by the hand, tell everyone to go eff themselves and save themselves and get their own happy endings that keep changing the second the wind blows and tell everyone she's off to have hot sex with her hot boyfriend.

 

Storybrooke can crumble.  Or better yet, jump in the bug with said boyfriend and drive away to never come back.  She might have had the right idea to go back to New York no matter how annoying repeating it was.

 

Also, leave Henry behind because he ruins everything.  She can have a baby that will truly belong to her and has no link whatsoever to the succubus.

 

This is my happy ending.

Edited January 5, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[The Cake is a Pie]

Don't forget when her power has been deliberately shown to be weak or ineffectual, like when she "blasted" Marshmallow only to just make him madder, and when DQ just waved her off like, oh, I just neutralized your puny powers, no biggie.

[OnceUponAJen]

And she tried to confront Zelena and got blown across the street.

[Shanna Marie]

Storybrooke can crumble.  Or better yet, jump in the bug with said boyfriend and drive away to never come back.

It's not like she'd be leaving them in the lurch, since she's never really a part of actually saving the day. I don't think Hook would even mind leaving, never to return, if Emma were with him. He adapts pretty well, and I bet he'd be good at helping track down bail jumpers. They could have a family business (which would help sidestep any pesky details about his citizenship status and lack of documentation).

[Mari]

They could have a family business (which would help sidestep any pesky details about his citizenship status and lack of documentation).

Maybe Emma could have a momentary flash and magic them up. It worked for Regina and Henry's adoption.

[buildmeupbuttercup]

For example, we weren't shown Charming and Snow grieving Emma during the Missing Year, although one would think they would be. Then they think of her when their asses are in the fire. If the writers hadn't been so disinterested in everyone's grief but Regina's or had anyone other than Charming telling Neal that Emma and Henry were lost for good, it would have looked less like they only were interested in getting back to her when they needed her.

 

But the writers didn't. And the way it played out, it looked to me exactly like they were only interested in getting back to her because they needed her.

I know the writers love to tell us Emma's parents love her instead of showing us but with Charming's "our family, we really hate giving up on people" (or whatever it was) speech in 402 and his "always find you" mantra I call so much bullshit on what transpired onscreen with Snowing in the Missing Year. Give me one scene or a single conversation and I would've been happy, but for people who "don't give up" on "finding" each other they gave two shits about getting back to or even missing their daughter. Swap one of Regina's "HENRRRRRY!!!!" scenes for a :30 Snowing missing Emma scene or hell having the courtesy to mention her name when Snow and Charms are saying goodbye before casting the curse so that Emma can save their asses and BDO!

This season has had really good Daddy Charming scenes. In White Out, he was trying to save Emma the person not Emma the savior so that relationship is repairing itself in my eyes. Snow? The Ariel episode thread is bringing back all my Snow hate with Echo Cave and her complete disregard for Emma’s feelings.

 

This is exactly why Hook is so good for her. He adores all of her, for herself. Not because she is the savior, not for her magic, for Emma because he knows how amazing Emma is. Which is Why it was so important for him to stress to her in New York City Serenade that he came back for her, not her family, not to save the town, just for her.

This 100%. I just want to hug poor Emma sometimes since even her own shitty son chooses Team Regina--the sole reason he sought SaviorEmma in the first place to save him--over her. Emma's happy ending should be taking her adoring, hunky boyfriend and getting as far away from this "savior" shit as possible. Bonus? Leave Truest Stupid with Regina and never speak the word "savior" to Emma's future BDOs.

[YaddaYadda]

This 100%. I just want to hug poor Emma sometimes since even her own shitty son chooses Team Regina--the sole reason he sought SaviorEmma in the first place to save him--over her. Emma's happy ending should be taking her adoring, hunky boyfriend and getting as far away from this "savior" shit as possible. Bonus? Leave Truest Stupid with Regina and never speak the word "savior" to Emma's future BDOs.

 

Speaking of the little shit known as Henry, has anyone noticed this?  When Henry is with Emma and he talks about Regina, he calls her my mom, but when he's with Regina and he talks about Emma, he doesn't say my mom, he says Emma like 95% of the time.  He called Emma his mom back in S1 and some in S2 because it was a way to get under Regina's skin, but now?  Not so much.

 

I see you there Henry.  DitchHenryFF over here.  Regina can keep him.

 

This season has had really good Daddy Charming scenes. In White Out, he was trying to save Emma the person not Emma the savior so that relationship is repairing itself in my eyes. Snow? The Ariel episode thread is bringing back all my Snow hate with Echo Cave and her complete disregard for Emma’s feelings.

I think this whole I can't believe it the Echo Cave happened and we are still talking about it a year later is happening because they did nothing to fix that AND poured even more salt in the wound later in 3B (we should leave Emma alone, she's very likely happy....BDO needs saving?  Let's go find Emma! and then the judgmental you're going back to NYC?  How dare you?) and the 4A with the whole magic going wonky and the way Snow reacted.  It's like they're piling on this stuff and not addressing it on purpose.

 

I sort of get that mother/daughters relationships are not the easiest ones.  When my mom and I get angry with each other, it can go on for days.  Meanwhile, when my dad and I have an argument, we can actually sit down and hash it out.  It can take 5 minutes, it can take an hour, but we talk through it.  With my mom?  Not so much.  And sometimes, it's just better to let dogs lie.

 

I can sort of see Emma and Snow just doing that, but not knowing what the writers' intent is with this relationship makes it difficult to figure out if they're letting the whole thing fester on purpose where there's going to be a huge blow up at some point or if they really think that a 30 seconds I'm sorry is enough and that Snow and Emma have moved on.  You can say to someone you're okay, but still be hurt very deeply by their words and actions and stuff like that tends to come back to the surface everytime the same person says or does something even if they don't mean it.

 

So...whatever...this show...I'm glad they're doing something with David and Emma, but at the same time, I'm pretty sure it has to do with Ginny being sort of sidelined because of her new mommy status.  I'm not sure Emma and David would have had nearly as much this half season if it wasn't for that, which is really sad.  

 

Another ugh moment I had with the mid-season finale other than the whole heart business was why was it Snow who went with Emma to the clock tower and not David?  Was there a purpose for that?  I mean if it was for her to see how close Hook and Emma actually are, then she got about as much as we did with that. 

[Dani-Ellie]

It's like they're piling on this stuff and not addressing it on purpose.

 

This is the exact problem. They threw all this drama at the relationship and then never showed any indication that it was repaired. I made a Tumblr post basically wishing the show would use the 80s-show convention of having a flippin' conversation so we know the characters are okay again. Obviously I don't need to see Snow behaving all Danny Tanner to Emma's DJ every episode, but let the two of them have a freakin' conversation, for crying out loud. Because maybe then it wouldn't seem like there's this big giant wedge in the relationship that just keeps getting bigger and bigger with every new plot issue.

 

Like, Emma's conversation with Charming in the car on the way to the ice wall? It was maybe twenty seconds, but there was an ease to the two of them that we don't get to see with Snow and Emma because we don't get to see the two of them having conversations like that at all. Combine that with a complete lack of a reaction from Snow to Emma almost dying, and it's like, WTF?

 

I know it's writer disinterest. I get it. But I also have to watch the result of the writer disinterest and that means that I'm annoyed with Snow because holy shit, Snow, this is your little girl. How about you try having a relationship with her? And if her whole problem was, as Emma said, Emma not letting her in, now that she's open, where's the effort on Snow's side? Where's the reciprocation? I'll admit that Snow handing Emma Neal before the Shattered Sight spell was lovely but I still don't see that ease between them that I see with her and Charming.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Dani-Ellie

[YaddaYadda]

We still have no idea how Emma leapt from Anna saying that Rumple is a lying liar who lies to he's in the clock tower with my boyfriend, a magic hat and boyfriend's heart.

 

I'm not even sure that Emma even knew or thought she would find Hook with Gold.  Anna had no idea what it took for Rumple to cut himself loose from the dagger.  All she knew is that he wanted to do it.  She finds out he has been playing them, has been lying to them and he hasn't changed at all.  She might have an inkling that Hook might be in over his head, but I'm not sure she thinks or even suspects Gold has the heart and what he's about to do to him.  Of course, interpreting the scene is difficult seeing as they did not build anything towards that or that no one got a freakin POV to go with whatever...so everything is speculation, but I'll just go with Emma wanting to stop Gold from becoming even more powerful than he is and seeing the weird lights over the clock tower, running into Belle who was following the gauntlet and then teaming up to stop him.  I wish the winter finale was the two hour long one.  It would have allowed them to write something more cohesive (or as cohesive as it gets with this show) as opposed to rush, rush, rush.  I still hate that scene in Arendelle.

 

Maybe its that kind of stuff that makes her have a hard time with letting people like Hook in sometimes rather than the whole my childhood sucked in foster care thing.

Boy am I grateful she actually has opened up to him or that he lets her know he understands her or where she's coming from.  At least there's that.

[Dani-Ellie]

The lack of reaction from Snow when Emma nearly froze was a breaking point for me. My daughter skinned her knee the other day and I ignored the fact that my husband was trying to show me the new dog he wanted to adopt. I was all about checking to make sure my daughter was okay.

This. I'm not a parent but I know how my mom reacts to things. I passed out at work once and had to call her from the ER, mostly because my car was still at work because I rode to the hospital in an ambulance (Protip: don't pass out at work. It's embarrassing, for one, and inconvenient, for another.) The conversation was pretty much this:

 

Me: Hi, Mom. I'm perfectly fine, but I passed out at work and am at the ER at [Local Hospital]. I just --

My mom: I'll be right there. *click*

 

She flew out of her own work, telling her boss her daughter was in the ER, and was there in 20 minutes. I was pretty much all, "I really just needed help getting my car." She sat with me until the ER doc released me, then forbade me from driving and made my sister drive my car while asking if I was sure I didn't want to stay at the house that night instead of my apartment. Now mind you, I was a fully grown adult at this point, had been living on my own for several years and everything.

 

My point is: all that drama over me being a little dehydrated. I can't imagine what she would do if I almost froze to death.

 

Phone call between mother and daughter when Emma was hiding out - "We're sorry. We're not scared." Conversations about putting Emma in the wardrobe are usually Snow saying they didn't have a choice (shades of Neal) and how hard it was for them. What about how hard it was for Emma?

 

This, too. Because look, Snow, this was hard for Emma, too. And eventually she's going to either want or need to talk about it, and she's going to need you to be there when she does, no matter how hard it's going to be for you. That's part of being a parent.

 

Boy am I grateful she actually has opened up to him or that he lets her know he understands her or where she's coming from.  At least there's that.

Word. I know some Charming Family fans were upset that Hook was the one to go through her childhood mementos with her, but maybe she wanted to go through them with someone who wouldn't be hurt by them. Maybe she wanted to go through them with someone who would support her rather than someone who would think about how much they'd lost, too.

[Faemonic]

I wish the winter finale was the two hour long one.  It would have allowed them to write something more cohesive (or as cohesive as it gets with this show) as opposed to rush, rush, rush.  I still hate that scene in Arendelle.

It didn't need to be two hours long to be cohesive, I think this fanfiction rewrite could have fit in 40 minutes if the sex scene was cut out and, what do you know, Emma gets to be perceptive and heroic!

Edited January 6, 2015 by Faemonic

[YaddaYadda]

Word. I know some Charming Family fans were upset that Hook was the one to go through her childhood mementos with her, but maybe she wanted to go through them with someone who wouldn't be hurt by them. Maybe she wanted to go through them with someone who would support her rather than someone who would think about how much they'd lost, too.

 

I think the difference between Hook and the Charmings (especially Snow) is that Hook actually wants to know about Emma's life and as he put it, her beginnings.  I think that if they asked, she would let them look.  But I mean even going back to season 1, when they had the whole Hansel and Gretel going into foster care, Mary Margaret was all about how it wasn't probably so bad.  So, cursed or not cursed, she simply doesn't get it.  How old was she when she became Bandit!Snow?  She lived in a castle until she was what?  18-19?  Maybe a bit older than that?  She had a loving mother and a father who also loved her very much.  Yes, she lost her mother at a young age and then got Regina as a replacement, but she still had a father who loved her and doted on her.

 

At the end of the day, this should be about Emma, not about them and I could do without lines comparing Snow's later life to Emma's.  That line about Snow not always living in a castle grates.

 

It didn't need to be two hours long to be cohesive.

No, I agree, I guess my point was that instead of doing 408 and adding stuff in there which was obvious, they could have just written an actual two hour for the winter finale since they wanted to put as much OQ and fake angst in there.

[buildmeupbuttercup]

Speaking of the little shit known as Henry, has anyone noticed this?  When Henry is with Emma and he talks about Regina, he calls her my mom, but when he's with Regina and he talks about Emma, he doesn't say my mom, he says Emma like 95% of the time.  He called Emma his mom back in S1 and some in S2 because it was a way to get under Regina's skin, but now?  Not so much.

 

So...whatever...this show...I'm glad they're doing something with David and Emma, but at the same time, I'm pretty sure it has to do with Ginny being sort of sidelined because of her new mommy status.  I'm not sure Emma and David would have had nearly as much this half season if it wasn't for that, which is really sad.  

Yes I have noticed the little shit and his "my mom" vs "Emma" thing and it grates my last nerve. MomEmma wants to ask out the guy who has spent time with the kid telling him about his dead father and keeping the Wicked Witch from killing him and he acts like a pretentious shit with his "I'm not okay with it but I'll be a martyr if you're happy" but MomRegina dating Robin Hood first elicits a "cool" and then he basically says Marian should just go back to being dead because duh OQ is mom's happy ending. Hate. He basically treats Emma now like she's the one who gaslighted him as a kid. And when did this change in personality start? When she "lied" to him and didn't tell him his dad was a douchebag that let his teenage girlfriend go to jail for his crime, leaving her alone and pregnant in jail. I think a young 1990's Seth Meyers SNL skit perfectly defines Henry: "you suck in three very specific ways: so hard, so bad, and wicked bad." The end.

 

I know it's writer disinterest. I get it. But I also have to watch the result of the writer disinterest and that means that I'm annoyed with Snow because holy shit, Snow, this is your little girl. How about you try having a relationship with her? And if her whole problem was, as Emma said, Emma not letting her in, now that she's open, where's the effort on Snow's side? Where's the reciprocation? I'll admit that Snow handing Emma Neal before the Shattered Sight spell was lovely but I still don't see that ease between them that I see with her and Charming.

The one nice moment for Snow re: Emma was when they were all watching the camcorder footage and Snow very motherly said "Emma that's you". She really did seem to be touched by being faced with young Emma, but it was a 10 second scene cut short by Regina's snark. I can't even give her full credit for handing BDO over to Emma because she seriously had no other choice. That seems to be the pattern--Snow will choose Emma when she has no other choice. Don’t even get me started on her being more concerned with the new fairytale ice queen in the loft than noticing her daughter is in the corner warming up from almost freezing to death! I’m not even sure she noticed Emma was in the room.

 

Emma's certainly gotten the short end of the stick when it comes to family relationships.

 

Snow's reactions to Emma seem to be all about Snow rather than about her daughter.

 

I think the difference between Hook and the Charmings (especially Snow) is that Hook actually wants to know about Emma's life and as he put it, her beginnings.  I think that if they asked, she would let them look.  But I mean even going back to season 1, when they had the whole Hansel and Gretel going into foster care, Mary Margaret was all about how it wasn't probably so bad.  So, cursed or not cursed, she simply doesn't get it.  How old was she when she became Bandit!Snow?  She lived in a castle until she was what?  18-19?  Maybe a bit older than that?  She had a loving mother and a father who also loved her very much.  Yes, she lost her mother at a young age and then got Regina as a replacement, but she still had a father who loved her and doted on her.

Snow has actually been very selfish when it comes to Emma since Echo Cave. It’s only about what she missed out on and not Emma. Even in the boiling bottle scene was all about Snow and her "first" baby. That’s why it had to be Hook with Emma’s childhood box. He smiles and giggles at Swan’s glasses. Snow’s reaction would’ve been “Our daughter wore glasses? David we missed sooo much!! Whyyy?? The blanket we wrapped her in when we had to give her up to give her her best chance? The paaain!!” I have always believed Emma had it worse during the cursed years because she had to deal with all the pain and her shitty life alone for all 28 years while Snow was basically “frozen” and numb. Snow is actually starting to rival Regina for the delusional biggest victim award. I still can’t believe the show turned my favorite season 1 relationship into this.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Snow is actually starting to rival Regina for the delusional biggest victim award. I still can’t believe the show turned my favorite season 1 relationship into this.

Replying in the Snow thread.

[KAOS Agent]

 

I have always believed Emma had it worse during the cursed years because she had to deal with all the pain and her shitty life alone for all 28 years while Snow was basically “frozen” and numb.

 

Other than Emma expressly telling her mother that "for 28 years, I only knew one thing - that my parents sent me away", they've never discussed how differently Snow & David (and all the cursed characters) see things vs Emma in terms of the curse. Time was frozen for them and David was in a coma while Emma experienced an entire lifetime. 28 years is a very long time for Emma to believe something and because Snow doesn't really register that passage of time, I think she just can't understand why Emma is so confused and why it is difficult for Emma to let go of her anger at them and her inability to open up.

[Dani-Ellie]

He smiles and giggles at Swan’s glasses. Snow’s reaction would’ve been “Our daughter wore glasses? David we missed sooo much!! Whyyy?? The blanket we wrapped her in when we had to give her up to give her her best chance? The paaain!!”

 

This is precisely the reason I think Emma keeps that box locked up in her office. Not so much because she doesn't want to deal with Snow turning it back on herself but because she knows the contents of the box -- and the stories behind the mementos -- would hurt her parents. I do think, like Yadda Yadda said upthread, that if they ever asked, she would show them, but I don't think she'd really offer it unbidden.

 

I wonder if Snow's ever asked where the baby blanket is. She knows Emma has it because Mary Margaret saw it in Emma's box o' stuff. I wonder if either of them have ever asked if she has any pictures or anything from when she was little, just so they'd know what she looked like. Questions like that would show her that they're interested in who she was and how she got to be who she is, even if it wasn't with them. Snow's reaction at seeing Wee Emma on video was sweet and lovely but that's something Emma really only showed them for evidence purposes.

 

 

 

I still can’t believe the show turned my favorite season 1 relationship into this.

 

I can't, either, and I don't think I'll ever forgive the writers for it.

 

 

 

28 years is a very long time for Emma to believe something and because Snow doesn't really register that passage of time, I think she just can't understand why Emma is so confused and why it is difficult for Emma to let go of her anger at them and her inability to open up.

 

This. I think it's extremely hard for Snow to fathom just how hard Emma had it. She may liken it to her time on the run, and while being on the run I'm sure is difficult, it's not an entire lifetime of being ignored, neglected, and unwanted. It's not watching little girl after little girl get placed with a family while all those prospective parents skim her over. It's not being shuffled from place to place so frequently that I'm sure it just became easier to stop even trying to make friends. It's not having absolutely no one to turn to, no one to help you. Snow was only completely on her own what, one or two nights before Red found her in her barn? Emma spent far longer than that on the streets all by herself.

 

Emma confirms in "Family Business" that the six months she spent with Ingrid was the longest she'd ever stayed anywhere. That's not even a full school year. School stability wouldn't be too bad if she was getting bounced from home to home in the same area of the same town, but even in the little town I grew up in, there were three elementary schools and you went to the one the district lines said you were closest to. People could move from one end of town to the other and their kids would have to go to a different school. (I ended up going to two of them and I never even moved, but that's a very long story, heh.) So Emma's bouncing around every six months or less means she would have had no consistent schooling, no consistent group of kids to grow up with, no consistent living situation, and no stability.

 

It would have been rough. Very, very rough.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Dani-Ellie

[kitticup]

Snow has actually been very selfish when it comes to Emma since Echo Cave. It’s only about what she missed out on and not Emma. Even in the boiling bottle scene was all about Snow and her "first" baby. That’s why it had to be Hook with Emma’s childhood box. He smiles and giggles at Swan’s glasses. Snow’s reaction would’ve been “Our daughter wore glasses? David we missed sooo much!! Whyyy?? The blanket we wrapped her in when we had to give her up to give her her best chance? The paaain!!” I have always believed Emma had it worse during the cursed years because she had to deal with all the pain and her shitty life alone for all 28 years while Snow was basically “frozen” and numb. Snow is actually starting to rival Regina for the delusional biggest victim award. I still can’t believe the show turned my favorite season 1 relationship into this.

I don't think that is entirely fair. Snow's mother was murdered when she was a child and even worse Cora messed with her. She gave Snow the ability to save her mother by killing another person. Imagine the guilt a child would carry no matter the choice. Sadly I think Snow has been trying to recapture the relationship she had with her mom with Regina. Only to have Regina unfairly blame her for everything. That has to be awful. Her father is murdered. Her throne is usurped and she lives on the run in very primitive conditions. Finally she find happiness. She expects to be separated from Charming but at she will have and raise Emma but Emma came early. She didn't have the time to adjust to the fact that she would not raise her daughter. In span of minutes of giving birth, she gave up her baby. It wasn't planned. She had so many hormones and emotions going through her just from th birth, to let go of her daughter and then to see her husbands critically wounded as the curse took her must have been completely overwhelming. She didn't get to process and adjust to that. Regina is a absolute witch* for what she did to Snow. Snow is a victim. A far greater victim than Regina.

I agree that Snow has not dealt well with Emma at all. You are right she is focused on her own pain and not Emma's but I think given everything she's been through it makes sense. No one is perfect. Emma is prickly (so am I) and it hard for people to get close. Snow wants to be her mom, not her friend, but she is never going to have that typical mother daughter bond. Snow does need to try harder and needs to hear about Emma's tough childhood to understand that it was hard.

[Mari]

 Snow wants to be her mom, not her friend, but she is never going to have that typical mother daughter bond. Snow does need to try harder and needs to hear about Emma's tough childhood to understand that it was hard.

But, in order for that to happen, Snow has to actually be interested in Emma's childhood and how it impacted Emma, instead of how Emma's childhood impacted Snow.  Right now, that isn't happening.

 

And it doesn't help that Snow is about 3233% more interested in Regina than in her own daughter.

[YaddaYadda]

If Emma falls under any type of curse, they should keep Snow away from her. That kiss would be one very seriius epic fail.

[FabulousTater]

If Emma falls under any type of curse, they should keep Snow away from her. That kiss would be one very seriius epic fail.

That's really tragic, and yet funny. I just imagined that scenario. It ends with a loud *sad trombone* and though I kinda hate myself for it, I can't help that it makes me cackle with laughter. Oh, Snow, nice try. Poor Emma.

[KAOS Agent]

Emma confirms in "Family Business" that the six months she spent with Ingrid was the longest she'd ever stayed anywhere. That's not even a full school year.

 

 

What I was appalled about when she said that was how shocked Emma was that she'd stayed so long. It was very apparent that six months was way longer than anywhere else she'd stayed. If you figure that after those first three years, Emma averaged say 3-4 months per family. So over the 12 year period between her first family and living with Ingrid, Emma moved roughly 40 times. That's some serious instability for a young child. No wonder she's so closed off and unable to settle in one place. 

Edited January 7, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Faemonic]

The discussion over at the 307 Dark Hollow thread about the collapse of the Mary Margaret and Emma relationship got me wanting to wander in over here. I really feel that the last time Mary Margaret and Emma had a real moment together was Emma's call from Manhattan about her anxiety with meeting Neal again. Mary Margaret was gently calling her out on lying about her past to a kid who went to Emma for the truth about his own past, but Mary Margaret didn't seem to be projecting whatever First Love Wins trope she's lived with David unlike on the way to the Echo Caves all, "Neal will forgive you." Much as I enjoyed Neverland (adult orphans theme is back and Regina lets Rumple and Emma have the spotlight with that, yaaay!) I couldn't see that mother/friend-daughter relationship even when Mary Margaret was talking Emma through confessing that she felt like an orphan.

 

While the collapse of their relationship during the Neverland arc has invited a whole lot of feels from Duckling audiences, I just don't even know what the writers are going for anymore. Emma's established to have walls, but because she's a character, it also depends on what Emma can show viewers. And JMo has been doing a phenomenal job with the most character-haphazard lines.

 

But I can't keep saying, "Emma must be feeling so rejected all over again by her parents" until the bottle-boiling, at which point it was less, "She's been repressing that all along" and more: "They needed this for the plot." Something just keeps taking me out of it. Emma's an orphan who grew up too fast, she's a mother, she needs to matter, but doesn't want to be Savior-special, she's really good at telling when people are lying to her but not, she's empathic except for when the camera's on somebody else for that episode...many of these could work together as very interesting character traits if they'd gelled but they kind of really don't.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Faemonic

[regularlyleaded]

Yes, but that's just what happens when you write characters around the plot instead of the other way around. That has been an issue with the show's writing since early season 2 and has only been exacerbated since then. It's become more and more gratingly obvious especially with Emma (among other characters. I'm not saying Emma's the only character that has taken the hit here) because her issues are very real world issues** that some in the audience can relate to, and are absolutely the type of issues that simply cannot be solved with a cheesy line and a hug. You can't magically cure someone of their abandonment issues. There's not an antibiotic for low self-esteem issues and childhood neglect. And yet, that's what the writers choose to do with the character. Emma's very real world issues are swept under the rug until the writers need it for plot reasons, and then they solve her problems with an insipid one-liner and a hug and *poof* Emma's emotional issues are cured! It's insulting to the audience (and to a lesser degree, insulting to the actors who put a lot of effort and care into creating so much depth and genuine emotion in their characters that the writers can't be bothered to actually write for)

 

(**Emma doesn't have some fairy tale malady like Villainitis, which is what I think the writers have decided that Regina and Rumple are suffering from, and so nothing they do is their fault. Symptoms of Villainitis include: chronic homicidal tendencies, delusions of grandeur, extreme paranoia, loss of perspective and personal responsibility, and severe bouts of narcissism. They've got a magical disease, dontcha know!)

Edited January 7, 2015 by regularlyleaded

[Dianthus]

I am so stealing Villainitis. Bloody brilliant!

[Dani-Ellie]

Emma's very real world issues are swept under the rug until the writers need it for plot reasons, and then they solve her problems with an insipid one-liner and a hug and *poof* Emma's emotional issues are cured! It's insulting to the audience (and to a lesser degree, insulting to the actors who put a lot of effort and care into creating so much depth and genuine emotion in their characters that the writers can't be bothered to actually write for)

 

This. I've seen firsthand how a neglected child behaves. I've seen firsthand how a neglected child feels. I've had a two-year-old tell me he doesn't want to go home because he gets so much more attention from his aunt's fiance's family than he does his own mom. And I've seen what an amazing turnaround a neglected child can make when given love and support and stability and attention. But I've also seen how much work that turnaround is and how arduous the process is, for everyone involved. Slapping a hug and a three-word sentence on it and calling it a day until they can mine those issues for plot drama again is most definitely insulting.

 

Realistically, every single hit the Snow/Emma relationship has taken would be hugely detrimental to it. Every single last one of them. And the problem with never showing the characters talking about it -- or only showing a line or two -- is that there's no way to know if the characters are really okay again after those hits. Even this most recent thing with Ingrid and Emma's magic, the only thing that was "addressed" was Emma's magic (with "please don't change"). Nothing that Ingrid brought up in that interrogation -- baby Neal, Emma's insecurity about her place within her own family, whether or not there was really another way to save Emma from the Curse, whether or not they saved Emma from the curse to save her or to save everyone -- was addressed at all. So, what, is it all true? Is it all false? How are all those issues resolved now?

 

We don't know because we're not shown. And because Emma is the kind of character she is, it's easy (at least for me) to believe that she's simply swallowing it all back down again because this is better than anything she's ever had before. But that's not healthy and she shouldn't have to feel like that within her own family, which leads to more anger (at least on my part) the next time the writing throws a new issue at it.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Dani-Ellie

[YaddaYadda]

While the collapse of their relationship during the Neverland arc has invited a whole lot of feels from Duckling audiences, I just don't even know what the writers are going for anymore. Emma's established to have walls, but because she's a character, it also depends on what Emma can show viewers. And JMo has been doing a phenomenal job with the most character-haphazard lines.

 

Here's the thing with this, personally, I'm tired of hearing about Emma's walls.  Sure, she has walls, but they're not insurmountable.  Hook chipped away at those very patiently until she let him in.  He was interested in her, he was interested in her story, he wanted to get to know her better, he wanted her to trust him, he did everything under the sun to show that he loved her and how sincere he was when it came to her.  He came back for her, he hasn't left her and he thought of her during the missing year, he missed her.  

 

David is doing the same thing as Hook.  Emma is a lot more open with him, she listens when he talks to her, she knows for certain he loves her, he wasn't scared of her magic, he was worried about what it was doing to her.  And while that line he had in 408 about her being normal was all kinds of effed up, the bottom line was that he just wanted her to be happy.  He wasn't part of the we failed her.

 

Snow...tumbleweeds being blown by the wind in a deserted street.   Emma must be happy wherever she is now, with Henry, let's all leave her be, she doesn't remember us anyway.  Emma has light magic and she can save her new sibling from the mean green thing, let's cast another curse to take us to SB so that we can find her and she can be the Savior again.  It's okay if we take her out of her quiet life because well....emergency.

 

Yes, but that's just what happens when you write characters around the plot instead of the other way around. That has been an issue with the show's writing since early season 2 and has only been exacerbated since then. It's become more and more gratingly obvious especially with Emma (among other characters. I'm not saying Emma's the only character that has taken the hit here) because her issues are very real world issues

Well if it's not magical, then no one really gives a fig about it and that's this show's entire problem.  It has become too entrenched magic.  There is no magical solution to 28 years of thinking no one wanted you.  There's no band-aid big enough for the emotional damage that does to someone.  She has no one, she meets someone she trusts who lets her go to jail, she finds out she's pregnant, gives up the child for adoption (I'm not knocking adoption because it is actually a wonderful thing) because she doesn't have the support system she needs to be able to raise him on her own.  She has that regret of what might have been, could have been which I'm sure is the same regret Snow has when she looks at Emma.

 

Isn't that something to bond over?  I know the situations are different between Emma and Snow.  Emma is 28 when she finds her parents and Henry is what?  Ten? So it does make things a bit different, but the issues at their core are the same.  Even if Emma had these fake memories of never having been parted from her son, at the end of the day, she still has to share him with Regina.

 

Magic trumps discussion any day on Once which is all kinds of sad because they build interesting arcs where I always think, oh wait! something awesome is about to happen, then it doesn't.

 

I've said it before, I'll say it again, I loved 321 and 322 because there was barely any magic in it.  The characters actually talked...about stuff.  Hook and David talked, Emma and Hook talked, Marian and Emma talked...but they also went out of their way to not have Emma and Snow talk.  I don't know why that is.

[Dani-Ellie]

Here's the thing with this, personally, I'm tired of hearing about Emma's walls.  Sure, she has walls, but they're not insurmountable. Hook chipped away at those very patiently until she let him in.

 

And the really frustrating thing is, once upon a time (heh), Snow did it, too, as Mary Margaret. Somewhere within her, she knows how to do it, so her seemingly giving up now is just like, wtf? If having a real relationship with Emma was really important, one would think she'd try to adjust her expectations a touch instead of just being all, "Welp, this isn't what I want."

 

Because look, they're never going to have a mommy/little girl relationship. Snow needs to find a way to deal with that because it's something that nobody can change.

 

If Mary Margaret/Emma wasn't developed so wonderfully in the first season, I wonder if I'd be this angry now. But where it was developed so wonderfully and was in fact my favorite part about the show, it's so inordinately frustrating. I'm angry with the writers for turning Mary Margaret/Emma into this and I'm angry with Snow because I just want to shake her by the shoulders all, "omg Snow this is your daughter, here, and you do know how to connect with her because you've done it before so reach back into your Mary Margaret memory banks and use what worked for you before."

[Rumsy4]

...I think she just can't understand why Emma is so confused and why it is difficult for Emma to let go of her anger at them and her inability to open up.

 

I think it's past time she did, though! If the action slows down two minutes, Snow's off having cozy chats with Regina. Either because of guilt or fear, Snow stopped putting any effort into bettering her relationship with Emma.