S05.E02: The House of Black and White

[Maximum Taco]

Totally forgot about the siege at Riverrun stuff. I find that's true of many of the books 4 & 5 plots in A Song of Ice and Fire -- with no resolution to much of it, I forget it even happened, since it doesn't have a lot of meaning as a half-finished story. I have to refresh my memory as to where characters ended up, for instance.

 

Yeah, a lot of it is boring stuff.

 

I said before that I think George knows where he wants people to be (or not be) at certain points in the story, but he has no idea what they should be doing until then.

 

For instance he needs Jaime to be out of the capital

when Cersei is arrested,

but he doesn't know what to do with him so he just sends him on a Riverlands tour. In the show they are sending him on a Dornish tour.

 

It's a good move in the show because as you said, this continues the story in Dorne that normally would be an Arys Oakheart/Balon Swann joint and makes it into a Jaime/Bronn joint therefore attaching characters we care about already instead of forcing us to try and care about new characters, and it also gets Jaime out of the capital like the story requires.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Mya Stone]

The election actually took place after the battle of the Wall.  Ser Alliser was still in charge as acting commander when Jon was sent out to kill Mance; that meeting was interrupted when Stannis and his army arrived.  But the rest of your post is correct: it wasn't that rah-rah, although Sam still did speak up like that, and the raven bit was really cool.

 

My bad...it's been a while since I read ASOS, hahaha. 

[Shanna]

Book Jaime also at this point in the story has the "luxury" of already being in the know that Cersei has been having sex with Lancel and the TV nonexistent Kettleblacks, and whoever else, so he has absolutely no more illusions where she's concerned. The show instead seems to be making his freeing Tyrion and thus his indirect role in Tywin's murder the source of their estrangement. Since they were bringing back Lancel anyway, I'm a little disappointed the show skipped the wonderful Lancel-Jaime conversation where Lancel came clean about it all before Jaime left Kings Landing. His finally seeing Cersei clearly informs a lot of his decision making going forward..

Yeah, I hate that they left that out and that they left out the but where Jaime tells Tyrion about Tysha. I'm convinced they left Cerseis stuff out because they are constantly whitewashing her actions but I suppose it's possible they could have wanted it to come out at another time (maybe so Jaime will have something to react to when the sparrows come into force?). But the Jaime Tyrion anger made little sense without it.

But I am ok with the changes to the Jaime/drone stuff I think except it seems wrong for ellaria to act in a way that 1. Dismisses all of Oberons agency in the mountain debacle and 2. Goes against his character and wishes by wanting to go after myrcella. It just seems wrong.

I keep thinking doran was more sickly looking and overweight in the books so I'm not totally sure I'm buying this actor. He looks too healthy.

[Oscirus]

Bronn's a goner, Jaime's promise of a better wife and a better castle sealed it for me. People never get to fulfill promises on this show.

 

Nah, Bronn's safe at least until he "impregnates the Vale." Besides I don't think they'd show the Lolly story if they didn't intend to do something about that.

 

I think there was a Lolly who got raped in season 2. I believe she was fat.

 

I can't blame Sansa for not going with the knight with no plan. It's not like Sansa's a proper lady who can come and go as she pleases. Having someone like Brienne is more trouble then it's worth at this point.

 

I get why Dany did what she did, but she better learn how to be a politician really quick.  Luckily for her, she's about to receive help from a really awesome former king's hand.

 

I assume that we're in for some really cool karate kid montages but I still don't get where Arya fits in with the end game. Is she going to manage to kill anybody on her list?

[nodorothyparker]

Lollys was gang raped in the streets in the second book during the mob attack on the Lannister procession to see Myrcella off to Dorne.  She gets pregnant from that attack and is portrayed as something of a dimwit. I think that's a book-only thing because as far as I can remember she's never been shown until now.  Tyrion and Bronn have joked about the character in the past, though, as someone they knew who is both soft and soft-headed. 

 

I agree that the writing for Ellaria makes no sense.  She's a compilation of Book Ellaria and Arianne, who did want vengeance, but unlike some combined characters this really doen't work.  Ellaria was in Kings Landing.  She knows that Oberyn chose to be in that fight and that his own hubris and thirst for vengeance got him killed.

 

I'm reserving judgment on the Jaime in Dorne story to see how it plays out.  I know I'm in something of a minority in that I really liked his book story, but I also realize that a lot of his ruminating and exposition to a tongueless man probably wouldn't make great TV.  And if they're going to do the Dorne story, it does make sense for it not to be peopled entirely by characters we don't know.

Edited April 20, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[Avaleigh]

Lollys was gang raped in the streets in the second book during the mob attack on the Lannister procession to see Myrcella off to Dorne.  She gets pregnant from that attack and is portrayed as something of a dimwit. I think that's a book-only thing because as far as I can remember she's never been shown until now.  Tyrion and Bronn have joked about the character in the past, though, as someone they knew who is both soft and soft-headed. 

 

I agree that the writing for Ellaria makes no sense.  She's a compilation of Book Ellaria and Arianne, who did want vengeance, but unlike some combined characters this really doen't work.  Ellaria was in Kings Landing.  She knows that Oberyn chose to be in that fight and that his own hubris and thirst for vengeance got him killed.

 

I'm reserving judgment on the Jaime in Dorne story to see how it plays out.  I know I'm in something of a minority in that I really liked his book story, but I also realize that a lot of his ruminating and exposition to a tongueless man probably wouldn't make great TV.  And if they're going to do the Dorne story, it does make sense for it not to be peopled entirely by characters we don't know.

This is the shit that I can't get over. It's like I'm supposed to be rooting for this lady to torture and kill Myrcella because Oberyn lost a fight that he chose to participate in of his own free will? 

 

I'm just hoping that Ellaria ends up falling on her ass the way Arianne ultimately did I only hope that Myrcella doesn't have to pay the consequences for Ellaria's decisions. 

 

Yeah, I hate that they left that out and that they left out the but where Jaime tells Tyrion about Tysha. I'm convinced they left Cerseis stuff out because they are constantly whitewashing her actions but I suppose it's possible they could have wanted it to come out at another time (maybe so Jaime will have something to react to when the sparrows come into force?). But the Jaime Tyrion anger made little sense without it.

 

I'm actually really happy that Jaime doesn't know about Cersei and Lancel. I'd much prefer the idea of him finally turning on Cersei because he thinks she's a terrible ruler and person as opposed to him turning on her (and probably killing her) because she was sexual unfaithful to him.

 

I also see show!Cersei as being more well rounded and understandable as opposed to being "whitewashed". The main whitewashing of Cersei to me was the way they put the Robert's bastard situation onto Joffrey rather than her but this didn't really bother me and for me it made more sense to have Joffrey take that sort of action since there were a lot of other examples of Joffrey's asshole behavior that they couldn't include. 

[tennisgurl]

 

She's a compilation of Book Ellaria and Arianne, who did want vengeance, but unlike some combined characters this really doen't work.

I totally agree. Ellaria`s vengeance obsession does not really fit the character, and morphing her and Arianne just does not work at all. I`m good with Ellaria getting an expanded role, but I wish we could get her acting more in character. Her and Arianne would be better as foils to each other, instead of turning into one.

 

As for the Dany/Cersei comparison, I think it comes down to motivation. We have never seen Cersei actually care about the people she`s ruling, she just wants to be powerful. Everything she does is for her own power (or her kids power). Dany, while occasionally being a bit arrogant and short sighted, at least has good intentions. She does really care about the people she rules, and she does want to be a responsible leader. I don't always agree with her (I don't know if I agree with her decision last night or not), but I feel like her intentions are good, and she could one day be a good leader. Cersei, even the more sympathetic show version, is not. 

 

But then, the road to hell and all that...

Edited April 20, 2015 by tennisgurl

[Philbert]

 

I don't mind the show expanding Ellaria Sand's role, but it doesn't make sense for her to claim Oberyn was murdered. She was there, she knows Oberyn wanted to fight the Mountain and she knows he only died because he got cocky. There's a reason Ellaria wants peace in the books. Oberyn is an object lesson in the futility of revenge. The show makes her look unreasonable.

 

Yes, this bothered me a bit as well. In fact, The Mountain and the Lannisters were the only ones NOT cheating in that fight. Oberyn volunteered to fight Clegane to get his revenge for Elia...he got it (by poisoning the man) and then blew the fight by acting like a douchebag. I realize that Ellaria is devastated by Oberyn's death (IIRC she was nearly catatonic in the book) but she's pulling stuff out of...thin air. Oberyn died of his own arrogance and overconfidence. That's not a reason to swear out revenge on an innocent teenaged girl.

[Shanna]

I remember Bronn describing Lollys as 'soft and warm' but I didn't take that to mean fat. Bronn at least considered it a pleasant thing. She was described by Tyrion as being basically a halfwit, although the way she was portrayed this episode was more frivolous than anything.

I can't say Cersei seems any more well rounded to me. She's still awful, I just think the show has cut some of her murdering out (bastards, the kid, etc)

Dany seems to have the stark flaw occasionally of trying to apply justice equally and screwing things up because of it. Even though I don't think her idea of justice is usually the same as the Starks. Interestingly, Jon seems quite a bit more flexible, which I think will make him a better leader ultimately.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Shanna

[Oscirus]

It actually makes sense to me. Vengeance isn't supposed to be rational. She wants to hurt them because they killed the man she loved. Myrracella is the only way to do that. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if she wanted to kill Tyrion as well. It's interesting that the prince repeated what his brother said earlier.

[Maximum Taco]

It actually makes sense to me. Vengeance isn't supposed to be rational. She wants to hurt them because they killed the man she loved. Myrracella is the only way to do that. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if she wanted to kill Tyrion as well. It's interesting that the prince repeated what his brother said earlier.

 

Exactly.

 

They are painting Doran as the sympathetic party here, and also as someone who really has no choice. 

 

Which is why it'll be all the more surprising when he reveals he's been playing everybody like pieces on a cyvasse board.

 

It is unfortunate that they felt the need to assassinate Ellaria's character to do that though. In the books it's Obara who comes to Doran seeking vengeance (but even she doesn't suggest torturing and killing Myrcella, she just wants war.) I suppose they wanted us to see a familiar face in our intro to Dorne though.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[DigitalCount]

It actually makes sense to me. Vengeance isn't supposed to be rational. She wants to hurt them because they killed the man she loved. Myrracella is the only way to do that. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if she wanted to kill Tyrion as well. It's interesting that the prince repeated what his brother said earlier.

Yeah, it's hard to say "oh well, bygones" when your beloved's head asplode. And in fairness, he wouldn't have been in that position if not for Tywin, so there is some fault at the Lannisters' door here.

[proserpina65]

I'm reserving judgment on the Jaime in Dorne story to see how it plays out.  I know I'm in something of a minority in that I really liked his book story, but I also realize that a lot of his ruminating and exposition to a tongueless man probably wouldn't make great TV.  And if they're going to do the Dorne story, it does make sense for it not to be peopled entirely by characters we don't know.

 

Jaime's story was one of the few things that actually worked well in FFC, so I'm sorry to see it change.  But I'm willing to see where this one goes.  I personally wish they weren't eliminating Arianne Martell ( apparently).  Not just because of the alterations they've made with Ellaria as a result, but also because she was one of the very few women in Westeros able to inherit a position of power.  And she was at least half-way intelligent/non-bat-shit-crazy.  Oh well . . .

Yeah, I hate that they left that out and that they left out the but where Jaime tells Tyrion about Tysha. I'm convinced they left Cerseis stuff out because they are constantly whitewashing her actions but I suppose it's possible they could have wanted it to come out at another time (maybe so Jaime will have something to react to when the sparrows come into force?). But the Jaime Tyrion anger made little sense without it.

 

I'm actually really happy that Jaime doesn't know about Cersei and Lancel. I'd much prefer the idea of him finally turning on Cersei because he thinks she's a terrible ruler and person as opposed to him turning on her (and probably killing her) because she was sexual unfaithful to him.

Yeah, this was a change I could get behind.  Plus, losing the whole Tysha confession means I won't have to listen to Tyrion moan about where whores go.

[mac123x]

It is unfortunate that they felt the need to assassinate Ellaria's character to do that though. In the books it's Obara who comes to Doran seeking vengeance (but even she doesn't suggest torturing and killing Myrcella, she just wants war.) I suppose they wanted us to see a familiar face in our intro to Dorne though.

 

Yeah, Show!Ellaria's dialog was a combination of the Sand Snakes':  Obara's angry confrontation with Hotah, Nym's plan to assassinate all the the Lannisters.  I get the feeling that Show!Snakes will be indistinguishable back singers for Ellaria, instead of the wildly different characters they are in the books.

 

(Ellaria and the Sand Snakes, in concert Sunday night at the Sunspear Square Water Gardens!  Get your tickets now!)

[DigitalCount]

I forgot, while I detest Selyse, I liked that she told Shireen not to hang out with Gilly. There seems to be a theme of trust being earned rather than assumed this season, first with Sansa and also with Shireen. It was moderately good advice, too.

[nodorothyparker]

This is the shit that I can't get over. It's like I'm supposed to be rooting for this lady to torture and kill Myrcella because Oberyn lost a fight that he chose to participate in of his own free will? 

 

I'm just hoping that Ellaria ends up falling on her ass the way Arianne ultimately did I only hope that Myrcella doesn't have to pay the consequences for Ellaria's decisions. 

 

I'm actually really happy that Jaime doesn't know about Cersei and Lancel. I'd much prefer the idea of him finally turning on Cersei because he thinks she's a terrible ruler and person as opposed to him turning on her (and probably killing her) because she was sexual unfaithful to him.

 

What happened to Elia Martell and her children was terrible and Oberyn had a right to want justice for that.  (Why he apparently waited around 17-18 years before taking a stab at it I don't know, but that's another thread.)  Yes, the Mountain and Tywin Lannister should have answered for it.  But Oberyn still deliberately chose to be a champion in a fight he didn't have to be in, and when he'd all but won that fight he chose to have his Inigo Montoya moment instead of making sure the job was finished.  I get why he did it.  But he still chose that.  So it's more than a little bit of a stretch to act like he was the innocent victim of being whacked over the head the moment he set foot in the streets of Kings Landing.

 

I'm also apparently a rare book reader who was perfectly fine with them leaving out the whole Tysha reveal because it ruined one of the sweeter sibling relationships in the series and set off an entire book of tedious drunken self pity that still didn't seem to lead anywhere interesting.  I really enjoyed the Tyron-Jaime scenes we got in season 4 and thought they told us a lot about how damaging growing up Lannister had really been.  I also liked that book Jaime at this point was really coming to see that Cersei was a terrible mother and an incredibly untrustworthy person and ruler separate from her sexual behavior.  I can absolutely see wanting that realization to not be built on "#$%#@! dirty whore."  But there's also no getting around the fact that one of the few areas where Jaime believes he has been successfully honorable is in being faithful to her his entire life.  So it's a little jarring for me to see him set off for his season storyline still not clued in to that fact, especially when Lancel is right there after having been offscreen for 2-3 seasons.

Edited April 21, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[Constantinople]

Ellaria and the Sand Snakes, in concert Sunday night at the Sunspear Square Water Gardens!  Get your tickets now!

with special guest, Dornish Red, brought to you by Martell Vineyards, the very finest winemakers in the Seven Kingdoms (not like that crap from the Arbor).

[Oscirus]

 the Varys Tyrion conversation about the box was interesting. The more I think about it the more the thought occurs to me that he has plans to install Tyrion as the king, Dany just happens to be the believable distraction because at the current time, Tyrion is in no condition to take on such a task.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Oscirus

[Mr. Simpatico]

This is the shit that I can't get over. It's like I'm supposed to be rooting for this lady to torture and kill Myrcella because Oberyn lost a fight that he chose to participate in of his own free will? 

 

I'm just hoping that Ellaria ends up falling on her ass the way Arianne ultimately did I only hope that Myrcella doesn't have to pay the consequences for Ellaria's decisions. 

Giving Ellaria Arianne's plot is nonsensical. I suppose they just wanted an excuse to keep Indira Varma but they could have done the same by giving her Book!Ellaria's personality of wanting peace after Oberyn's death. The whole Dorne plot is not really about "revenge" (but of course Benioff and Weiss continue to water down every plot point because viewers are stupid apparently) except for the Sand Snakes but Arianne's feelings that she was going to be passed over to her right as heir to Dorne (and cutting out Arianne and making Trystane - a character who never speaks in the books - the heir has a lot of sexist complications considering the Dornish inheritance laws make it stand out in Westeros). Nobody in the Dornish conspiracy wanted to see Myrcella hurt (well except maybe Darkstar but the less said about him the better) they just wanted to crown her and rule/cause war through her. Myrcella actually protected Arianne and the other's hand in the plot. Now we have Show!Ellaria (and presumably the Sand Snakes) wanting to kill Myrcella just because she is a Lannister? Really?

 

Also, as mentioned, without Arianne, the whole subplot of Doran plotting all these years for a Targareyen return (and the connection between the Martells and Targs) is largely thrown out the window because he can't have the same scene Ellaria or the Sand Snakes (though I have a bad feeling the producers would have it Trystane secretly engaged to Dany). No "Vengeance. Justice. Fire and Blood" from Doran, which rivals with Manderly's "The North Remembers" as one of GRRM's crowning moments.

 

There is literally no real reason if they were going to keep the Dorne plot not to hire an Arianne (presumably an inexpensive uknown who would cost less than Indira Varma), especially when they are keeping the Sand Snakes. Even people who take the show changes with a grain of salt have to look askance at one of the books' primary POV characters be deleted entirely. 

 

Instead we will presumably have Ellaria/Arianne seduce Bronn/Arys to kill Myrcella, only for it not to end well while (either Ellaria or Bronn will end up dead) and  Jaime/Boros is se up to be killed by the Sand Snakes as tries to take Myrcella home. It makes no sense just not to have Arianne in this plot instead. And I don't buy its because there are too many characters, it's not like the show is adverse to casting new people every season, even characters that are created just for the show.

 

I did laugh out loud at this line by Show!Ellaria "The Sand Snakes are with me". Yes of course they are - given that half of them are your children (or are we supposed to believe that none of Oberyn's show canon 8 daughters are by her as well). 

[Maximum Taco]

Yeah, Show!Ellaria's dialog was a combination of the Sand Snakes':  Obara's angry confrontation with Hotah, Nym's plan to assassinate all the the Lannisters.  I get the feeling that Show!Snakes will be indistinguishable back singers for Ellaria, instead of the wildly different characters they are in the books.

 

(Ellaria and the Sand Snakes, in concert Sunday night at the Sunspear Square Water Gardens!  Get your tickets now!)

 

Correct me if I'm wrong though, but even Nym doesn't want to kill Myrcella. Nym just wants to wipe out everyone else, but that's more so the Martells can crown Myrcella and rule the kingdoms with her as a puppet.

[Shanna]

I'm also apparently a rare book reader who was perfectly fine with them leaving out the whole Tysha reveal because it ruined one of the sweeter sibling relationships in the series and set off an entire book of tedious drunken self pity that still didn't seem to lead anywhere interesting.

.

But they kept the fight with Jaime anyway where Tyrion said he killed his son. It just didn't make any sense at that point.

In the books I felt a lot of it was guilt. That didn't make it any easier to watch all the meandering ( which the books are clearly speeding up thank god). I just hope they run into Jorah soon!

[that one guy]

Oberyn died of his own arrogance and overconfidence. That's not a reason to swear out revenge on an innocent teenaged girl.

 

 

People suffering from grief, loss and trauma do not always act rationally. Remember what her face looked like when she saw his head explode? She ain't never gonna be right again.

[Constantinople]

Even people who take the show changes with a grain of salt have to look askance at one of the books' primary POV characters be deleted entirely.

 

I believe there have been 2 Arianne POV chapters so far.

[nodorothyparker]

But they kept the fight with Jaime anyway where Tyrion said he killed his son.

 

When was this?  Jaime did question Tyrion about it the first time he visited him in his cell.  When Tyrion asked him if he really thought he had, Jaime's immediate response was did he really think he would kill his brother after admitting that Cersei wanted him to.  There was almost no conversation in their parting scene, at least not that I remember, and they parted on good terms.  I think we're supposed to believe that the guilt over that is fueling Jaime's willingness to immediately trek off to Dorne and set things right himself now.

[Maximum Taco]

But they kept the fight with Jaime anyway where Tyrion said he killed his son. It just didn't make any sense at that point.

In the books I felt a lot of it was guilt. That didn't make it any easier to watch all the meandering ( which the books are clearly speeding up thank god). I just hope they run into Jorah soon!

 

Nope they took that out too.

 

I remember cause I was very excited for Dinklage's delivery of that line. "Yes, I killed your vile son!"

 

Would've been awesome, but it never happened. They parted as bros.

[Shanna]

Nope they took that out too.

I remember cause I was very excited for Dinklage's delivery of that line. "Yes, I killed your vile son!"

Would've been awesome, but it never happened. They parted as bros.

Really? I will have to double check later because I didnt think they parted buddies. But how knows! I didn't like the changes to that scene at all. Edited April 20, 2015 by Shanna

[Hecate7]

Bronn's a goner, Jaime's promise of a better wife and a better castle sealed it for me. People never get to fulfill promises on this show.

 

You are probably right, which really stinks. Bronn is so much fun. But maybe there's hope that Bronn DOES get a better wife and castle, and replaces some noble who otherwise would be a new character we wouldn't really care about yet, in the books. Fingers crossed.

[Unknown poster]

You are probably right, which really stinks. Bronn is so much fun. But maybe there's hope that Bronn DOES get a better wife and castle, and replaces some noble who otherwise would be a new character we wouldn't really care about yet, in the books. Fingers crossed.

I could see Bronn potentially dying, but the idea that he'll be a surrogate Areys Oakheart seems ridiculous to me. BronnhS been shown to be far too cunning and worldly to believably be beguiled by a pretty face, and the pleasures of the flesh, which is literally all Elaria can offer. She has no official standing in Dorne, and Bronn would certainly understand the risks of betraying the Lannisters. Besides, if that was all he was brought back to do, why not just keep the real Oakheart? He was on the ship that left King's Landing in season 2.

[Dev F]

Giving Ellaria Arianne's plot is nonsensical. I suppose they just wanted an excuse to keep Indira Varma but they could have done the same by giving her Book!Ellaria's personality of wanting peace after Oberyn's death.

 

Why is it nonsensical for Ellaria to want revenge for the death of her lover? It's not what happens in the book, but to me it seems perfectly in keeping with what little we've seen of the character on screen.

 

There is literally no real reason if they were going to keep the Dorne plot not to hire an Arianne (presumably an inexpensive uknown who would cost less than Indira Varma), especially when they are keeping the Sand Snakes. Even people who take the show changes with a grain of salt have to look askance at one of the books' primary POV characters be deleted entirely.

 

(shrug) I can't speak for anyone else but I'm not bothered at all simply by the loss of a POV character. The last couple books have gotten way too bogged down with different unnecessary POVs -- right when it should be getting tighter and more focused in preparation for some sort of grand climax.

 

And I don't buy its because there are too many characters, it's not like the show is adverse to casting new people every season, even characters that are created just for the show.

 

It's not just a numbers game, though. It's about making sure that we're not dropped into a completely new storyline with no existing character to anchor us. Centering the conflict around Arianne and Doran means that we're watching a fight between two people we've never seen before. It makes sense to focus at least one side of the conflict on someone we already know.

 

(I wonder if part of the reason why they decided to go in this direction is because of their experiences with the introduction of Stannis and company at the beginning of season 2. As I recall, they had to do a lot of rejiggering in postproduction because they felt like they were casting the audience adrift for too long in an all-new storyline -- and that's with a character who, unlike Doran and Arianne, was mentioned prominently throughout the previous season.)

Edited April 20, 2015 by Dev F

[benteen]

While they could have teased Jon becoming a Stark for another week, I'm glad they didn't.  Jon doesn't end up taking the offer anyway so why draw it out and disappoint the people who want it?  I like Jon becoming the Lord Commander but I have to admit when reading it that I wanted him to become Lord of Winterfell.  A marriage to Val would have been intriguing too.

 

The Ellaria thing is strange.  Threatening to kill Myrcella makes her no better than Tywin Lannister.  Unless it's some plot on her part to draw the Lannisters into a war by lying about it (which I'm pretty sure it isn't) the writers have chose the least interesting way to explore this storyline.

[Shanna]

The Ellaria thing is strange. Threatening to kill Myrcella makes her no better than Tywin Lannister. Unless it's some plot on her part to draw the Lannisters into a war by lying about it (which I'm pretty sure it isn't) the writers have chose the least interesting way to explore this storyline.

Completely agree. I thought Ariana and the sand snakes could be annoying in the books but none of them wanted to cut an innocent girl into pieces. They wanted to make her a ruler. That was a much more interesting take to me.

[benteen]

Agreed.  Making her a ruler (their ruler in particular) is a fascinating play on their part and they've boiled it down to (at the moment) to simple revenge.

[Dev F]

Completely agree. I thought Ariana and the sand snakes could be annoying in the books but none of them wanted to cut an innocent girl into pieces.

 

Well, one of the Sand Snakes wanted to murder eight-year-old King Tommen. I don't see this as remarkably different.

 

They wanted to make her a ruler. That was a much more interesting take to me.

 

I assume that "I want to murder Myrcella!" was just an opening proposal offered in grief and frustration, and that her plan will get more nuanced going forward. This was just a scene to introduce the basic conflict, hardly the place to info-dump an elaborate plan of revenge.

 

(Indeed, I'd argue that another weaknesses of the book is that it immediately lays out three different plans for revenge in laborious detail while we're still adjusting to the setting and trying to get a handle on all the new characters.)

[Avaleigh]

Not only did Oberyn choose to fight of his own free will as opposed to playing the long Game via his new position in King's Landing but for all the Martells know the man who killed Oberyn still died from his wounds. He hasn't been seen since. That's all in addition to the fact that the main guy they wanted to kill has already been murdered with the bonus being that it was a humiliating death for their enemy. 

 

Why can't these people move on when everybody else in Westeros has to? 

Edited April 20, 2015 by Avaleigh

[ulkis]

While they could have teased Jon becoming a Stark for another week, I'm glad they didn't.  Jon doesn't end up taking the offer anyway so why draw it out and disappoint the people who want it?  I like Jon becoming the Lord Commander but I have to admit when reading it that I wanted him to become Lord of Winterfell.  A marriage to Val would have been intriguing too.

 

And doesn't Rob legitimize Jon in a Storm of Swords? I don't know if he ever managed to get around to it but he told Catlyn he was going to so maybe that piece of paper is lying around somewhere. Maybe that's another reason they didn't dwell too long on Jon's decision, because they are going to bring Robb's decision into play. (Did Robb and Catlyn have the legitimization conversation on the show too? I forget.)

Edited April 21, 2015 by ulkis

[MrWhyt]

Why can't these people move on when everybody else in Westeros has to? 

They're still not over the murder of Elia Martell and her children, the death of Oberyn is just more fuel on the fire.

[Matt K]

I'm just don't get what Danny's plan is at this point. She doesn't seem to be doing anything to move her towards her goal of taking Kings Landing except perhaps using this as a test city (although that's kind of putting the cart before the horse). These people aren't going to be her army or build her boats or give her riches to buy those things so what is she doing bogged down in this quagmire.

Distence wise it doesn't even look like she'll be able to really rule both here and Kings Landing, she doesn't have enough people to hold this much land. He'll at this point I'm doubt she'll be able to take back much beyond the Iron Throne itself, just a real lack of manpower.

[Consternation]

Do you guys think that the artist formerly known as Jaqen is the same guy that was at Harrenhal?

 

In the book, I never considered it might be the original "Jaqen" at the House of Black and White because I thought we saw where he went and it was elsewhere.  In the show, it seems like the same guy, mainly because they are in possession of the same face.  But who knows, maybe they get together and swap with each other all the time.  Reduce, reuse, recycle.  And I don't think the show is going to be doing the plot where we saw the guy in the book who was once Jaqen.

 

I'm not sure it even makes a difference if it is the same guy or not.

[snakenax]

 

I can't say Cersei seems any more well rounded to me.

I would say the main way show Cersei is more well rounded isn't in being a better person, she's still a horrible person, but that she actually is a quick witted and fairly sharp person who knows what she is doing and is willing to fight for what she wants. Comparable book Cersei after appearing like that in Ned's chapters in the first book, just gets increasingly revealed as stupid, incapable, outright crazy and basically a shrieking paranoid harpy with her own chapters basically play ultimate unreliable narrator by putting you in the head of someone too stupid to realize every maneuver around her. Oh and in the show she doesn't primarily get her way by fucking whatever guy she currently needs.

[Haleth]

Do you guys think that the artist formerly known as Jaqen is the same guy that was at Harrenhal?

 

For the show?  Probably.  The producers know he was a fan favorite.  But I'd prefer it if the Kindly Man would show Arya that Jaqen wasn't a real person and anyone could don that face.

 

I have no problem with Ellaria calling for Myrcella's death out of grief.  (As a poster noted, grudges last a loooong time in Dorne.)  It will be interesting to see what the show does with the Snakes.  It would be far more interesting if they intend to talk her into claiming the throne as the older sibling.  That would leave Jaime with a difficult decision.  Is Myrcella better off with Cersei or with the Snakes?

Edited April 21, 2015 by Haleth

[Maximum Taco]

Do you guys think that the artist formerly known as Jaqen is the same guy that was at Harrenhal?

 

In the book, I never considered it might be the original "Jaqen" at the House of Black and White because I thought we saw where he went and it was elsewhere.  In the show, it seems like the same guy, mainly because they are in possession of the same face.  But who knows, maybe they get together and swap with each other all the time.  Reduce, reuse, recycle.  And I don't think the show is going to be doing the plot where we saw the guy in the book who was once Jaqen.

 

I'm not sure it even makes a difference if it is the same guy or not.

 

I don't think so.

 

Jaqen obviously had more things to do in Westeros, if he was heading back to Braavos that soon he could've taken Arya himself. I think the whole point is that any faceless man can use any face. So when Arya mentions Jaqen to the Kindly Man (or Angry Man) then he uses Jaqen's face to illustrate that.

[Constantinople]

Jaqen obviously had more things to do in Westeros, if he was heading back to Braavos that soon he could've taken Arya himself. I think the whole point is that any faceless man can use any face. So when Arya mentions Jaqen to the Kindly Man (or Angry Man) then he uses Jaqen's face to illustrate that.

I don't know if it's the same person or not -- I'm inclined to think not -- and I'm not sure I care, one way or the other.

But I thought Jaqen 1.0 offered to take Arya to Bravos with her at the end of Season 2

 

Arya:    How did you kill those guards? Was it hard?

Jaqen: No harder than taking a new name if you know the way.

Arya:    Show me how. I want to be able to do it, too.

Jaqen: If you would learn, you must come with me.

Arya:    Where?

Jaqen: Far and away across the Narrow Sea to Braavos.

Arya:    My dancing master was from Braavos.

Jaqen: To be a dancing master is a special thing, but to be a faceless man-- that is something else entirely. A girl has many names on her lips-- Joffrey, Cersei, Tywin Lannister, Ilyn Payne, the Hound. Names to offer up to the Red God. She could offer them all one by one.

Arya:    I want to. But I can't. I need to find my brother and mother. And my sister. I need to find her, too.

Jaqen: Then we must part.

If Arya had accepted, perhaps Jaqen 1.0 would have taken her to Bravos, dropped her off and then headed back to Westeros. Or perhaps whatever duties he had in Westeros would have been re-assigned.

It any case, it did seem as if Jaqen 1.0 was willing to head straight to Bravos at the end of Season 2.

[MrWhyt]

These people aren't going to be her army or build her boats or give her riches to buy those things so what is she doing bogged down in this quagmire.

It seem's she's a believer in "you broke it, you bought it". The books make it clear that the other cities she liberated quickly feel into chaos when she left (I'm straining to think of a real world parallel here), she's trying to ensure this one stays stable.

[Avaleigh]

Is Arya's list on the show only down to three names? Cersei, Meryn Trant, and Ilyn Payne?

Edited April 21, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Consternation]

Is Arya's list on the show only down to three names? Cersei, Meryn Trant, and Ilyn Payne?

Four, the Mountain.

[Meredith Quill]

Is Arya's list on the show only down to three names? Cersei, Meryn Trant, and Ilyn Payne?

 

 

Four, the Mountain.

 

Her current list is: Cersei, Walder Frey, The Mountain & Meryn Trant.

[SFoster21]

Odd that she would know about Tywin and not know about the Mountain.

[Triskan]

And that she so easily ditched the Red Woman and the Brotherhood gang... 

[Maximum Taco]

And that she so easily ditched the Red Woman and the Brotherhood gang... 

 

Yeah, has she forgotten about Gendry already?

 

Remind me never to become Arya's friend.

[OakGoblinFly]

Remind me never to become Arya's friend.

 

 

Or enemy.  In fact, it might just be best to stay far, far away from Arya.