Louie - General Discussion

[wmdekooning]

Can anybody explain to me what might be Pamela's disorder/problem?  Maybe it was addressed in one of the previous seasons and I spaced on it.

Whatever, I am not wild about her or her relationship with Louie.

And I keep remembering she's the voice of Bobby Hill from "King of the Hill".

yuk.

[bosawks]

This season just left me feeling sad.

[BusyOctober]

I guess we are supposed to feel good for Louie?  That he "finally" found "love"???  I don't get the Pamela attraction AT ALL.  She is a horrible person and I think she makes him more pathetic than he usually is.

[HunterHunted]

What does Louie see in Pamela?

Female parts. But seriously he's crafted this whole romantic fantasy and deposited on the nearest semi-willing female. There was nothing about Pamela prior to this episode that would leave me to believe that she would be won over by any of that stuff.

[hoodooznoodooz]

wmdekooning: I, too, would love to know what Pamela's disorder is. She is always so hostile, sarcastic and aggressive. I actually loved seeing for the first time the actress who voiced Bobby Hill, so for me it is simply hating the character "Pamela."

So wrong to give his furniture to a Goodwill then cackle about it with his daughters. And mocking his physical appearance to them? What a bitch.

Having said that, I loved and was very relieved to finally watch the following:

How the hell is she the mother of those almost translucent white girls of yours?

Oh, her mom is white.

Oooh. Well, then her mom must have had those kids, because Janet? is not their mom. Did you see them being born?

Edited June 17, 2014 by hoodooznoodooz

[jbrecken]

I'm just left wondering if Louie's first kiss with Laurie was before or after he tried to go to the dance with her.

[Uncle Benzene]

Pamela is the absolute worst.

 

Most of the time. But every now and then, she has a fleeting moment where she's the absolute best. And I can see how Louie is a total sucker for those fleeting moments. It's probably how he sees himself.

 

Lately, watching this show is an awful lot like that stroll through the art gallery though. Way too much like that.

[peeayebee]

I gotta say I'm disappointed. I expected more to come of the scene from the earlier ep where Louie was so aggressive with Pamela and forced a kiss on her. I should have known that Louis CK doesn't do what I expect.

 

I guess the point was that Louie needed to let Pamela control things. I don't know.

 

Oh, and I don't hate Pamela. I don't think she's the worst, and I see what Louie sees in her. She's very funny and confident. She's also pretty, imo. I did wonder, however, if it was going to be revealed that she had a mental disorder, but I guess we already did that with Parker Posey. Besides, Louie has known Pamela for long time, so that wouldn't have made sense. I just didn't think they would actually have a relationship.

[peeayebee]

Yeah, as I said in the Part II thread, this was a disappointment. I really didn't expect Louie to end up happily with Pamela.

[benteen]

I was reading an interview with Marc Maron from a few months ago.  Apparently that conversation he had with Louie did happen except it was Louie who was calling him an ***hole and a bad friend.

[peeayebee]

From Vulture: For All of Louie’s Ambition, That One Ugly Scene Still Lingers: A Conversation About Season 4. I thought this was very interesting. It gets me rethinking about my reaction to these last two eps and the season as a whole.

[torontomeridith]

Tara mentioned on the podcast that there may be a gender split for this season and I think that's the case. At least with the male TV reviewers out there who just see "Louie" differently than I do. And I know love is messy - especially between two middle aged divorced people - but Louie and Pamela just seems ALL mess. And worst of all, not very funny.

[ganesh]

I didn't see the 'date' as anything more than what they normally do anyway. 

[ganesh]

I think this was the actual point though. Louis is saying that we shouldn't be acting like this. MM said it on the show when he called Louis shitty. Louis is saying this is how shitty people are, so don't be like this. That's why it was so painful to get through. He went a long way for it, but that's the only thing I can think of. 

 

I think the season should have ended with Into The Woods because the last shot was him hugging Jane, and this ended so downer.

[Milburn Stone]

Tara mentioned on the podcast that there may be a gender split for this season and I think that's the case.

 

Where is the podcast? I've read Tara's printed piece on the episode and the season but would like to hear the podcast. (Partly because I agree there might be a gender split.)

 

As for Pamela…In real life I'd run away from a woman like that as fast as my legs could carry me. And I guess I don't understand why Louie, a man in his forties, doesn't have the sense to do that. But then, maybe that's why the show is uniquely great. Because in real life, people do make choices that can only bring them pain. 

[peeayebee]

I don't understand what gender split means, particularly for the season.

[ganesh]

I think it means men interpret the show one way, women another. Like, Louie clearly assaulted Pam in Pam I and she let it slide and women may say that Louie is saying that it's ok for guys to do that. Guys might say, she was always leading him on and he tried to take control of the situation.

 

I think it misses the point. Like I said, I think Louis CK is purposely showing Louis as shitty as what not to do, for everyone.

[Milburn Stone]

I think it means men interpret the show one way, women another. Like, Louie clearly assaulted Pam in Pam I and she let it slide and women may say that Louie is saying that it's ok for guys to do that. Guys might say, she was always leading him on and he tried to take control of the situation.

 

I think it misses the point. Like I said, I think Louis CK is purposely showing Louis as shitty as what not to do, for everyone.

 

I agree with you about what "gender split" means in this case, but disagree as to what's in Louis' head. (About which we can only speculate, obviously, but nevertheless have our own opinions regarding.)

 

I think Louis is well aware that most guys will look at it one way, most women another. And that's what interests him, and why he wants to explore it. But the key word is explore, not teach. I don't think he's saying, "Guys, you're wrong, and women, you're right," and I don't think he's saying the opposite, either. I think he's saying that relations between the sexes are far more complicated even than we usually acknowledge them to be.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Milburn Stone

[Charlie Baker]

I was enjoying this season up until these last Pamela episodes. It felt out of character to me that Louie would act so aggressively.  And then she's just an unrepentant asshole to him.  Maybe they deserve each other.  As much as I liked and respected this show so much up until this point of the season, maybe I don't want to watch these two.

[Ronin Jackson]

I was certainly surprised the season ended this way.  I had commented earlier that Louis C.K. had a responsibility to go somewhere with the scene of Louie forcing the kiss on Pamela, and I don't have a clear idea where he did go with it.  But then it seems that the Louie/Pamela relationship will continue into next season so perhaps he ultimately will, since the Pamela relationship seems to be one of the few threads that has some continuity from season to season in this show.  Even though the season ended with them together I can't imagine it ultimately ending well, since they are both so dysfunctional... perhaps that is the ultimate point of it.

 

I was also surprised to see acknowledgement that Janet was black and some kind of explanation offered about the kids... after she was white in the flashback earlier I figured either it was going to be a non issue or it was actually the case that the character was white played by a black actress.  It's probably best not to over-analyze it.

[Ronin Jackson]

My favorite part of these two episodes was definitely  the weirdness of the art gallery.  I've always appreciated the moments of surrealism injected into the show.

[Lone Wolf]

And mocking his physical appearance to them? What a bitch.

 

I interpreted this as her trying to diffuse an awkward situation (caught in bed, now Daddy's girlfriend) by deflecting the attention on to Louie.

 

Can anybody explain to me what might be Pamela's disorder/problem?  Maybe it was addressed in one of the previous seasons and I spaced on it.

 

I think at worst she's socially stunted and to a large extent can't clearly distinguish between appropriate and inappropriate behavior. At best, she likes pushing buttons. Still and all, she's shown moments when she relates (however briefly) to Louie on a human, intimate level, especially after he calls her on her shit.

 

I noticed that Adlon is credited not only as a co-writer, but producer, so I don't think her character will be going anywhere very soon.  

[peeayebee]

She was on Californication, so since that's over, it's easier for her to appear more regularly, if that's what's going to happen. At the least, maybe she'll do more writing for the show.

 

I was listening to a podcast today where Sepinwall and Feinberg discussed Louie. Sepinwall said that Pamela was toxic, but Feinberg disagreed. He wondered if Pamela and Louie are bad for each other. One thing he said I found particularly interesting was that Pamela was the embodiment of the threat of opening yourself up to someone. Their relationship was about the dangers of opening yourself up to anything. Both Louie and Pamela were taking a risk -- Louie's desire for an intimidate physical and emotional relationship risked being mocked and having all his furniture thrown out, while Pamela's risk was engaging in an emotional relationship where she had to hear "I love you" and possibly learn to express it herself. One thing Feinberg said was, "If you let someone into your life, are you prepared for the water they displace in your life?"

[Fisher King]

Funny how we all have different takes on these episodes. I laughed so much during the art gallery scenes. The Central Park/meteor shower scene was well done. 

 

I haven't watched the finale yet. Still soaking this one in.

[slasherboy]

This is a serious question since I haven't been on the dating scene for a LONG time: do adults of that age actually talk and behave like Louie and Pamela did?

 

I can now cross something off my bucket list: I've seen Louie's naked bottom.

 

le sigh.....

[ganesh]

Don't forget, they've been friends for a long time, so there is a level of familiarity there. People just dating don't act like that, but they know each other fairly well.

[jennylauren123]

I think Pamela's disorder is that she's a rotten person. Just an awful shrew who lives to manipulate, harass, and torture Louie. Oh well, he's a sucker for tolerating it, so I don't feel sorry for him. Just sorry for us that we've felt obligated to see this season through.

 

You know, Pamela Adlon also plays an extremely desired woman on Californication. I don't see it. Sure, she's attractive, but on both shows, she has a horrible, foul disposition.

[Hecate7]

I get the feeling that this isn't about "women," or how to really date someone. This is about a very particular type of individual. Pamela is weird, we can all agree on that, I think.

 

She has said she wants a relationship with Louie. Louie notes that she flickers on and off, runs hot and cold, and at first he bends with it, but then he decides to proceed by being extremely honest. He did not rape her. He did force a kiss on her, I think because it was important that he risk rejection, and that he put it out there that whether Pamela is into him or not, he is into her. This is something I think he's never really done before with someone.

 

Pamela the character has demonstrated that she has some weird intimacy issues. She wants the closeness, and she wants Louie to be in love with her, but she also wants to be free to call him stupid and to pull the rug out from under him whenever. She does this because she's kind of a jerk, AND because she's even more afraid of rejection than Louie is. There are people like her in the world. Whether it's worth getting to know them as intimately as Louie has done, is another issue altogether. I thought she was awful, but then there were the shooting stars and her incredibly cool reaction to Mark Maron, and suddenly I got what he sees in her.

 

On some level, one partner is always more willing than the other. I don't think Louie intended this to be advice to young boys, or even advice for old divorced men, on how to pursue a woman. I think he was just exploring all the questions in his own mind about love, and what it is. I really liked that he was finally willing to say to her, "that hurts. I'm gonna leave if you don't quit it."

 

The picture sharing part was just bizarre.

[Hecate7]

Do I think Louie is going to rape Pamela?  No, I don't think Louie CK will take him there.  But then again, I never though I'd see Louie raped like he was last season.  And I didn't think I'd ever see the character push a woman screaming "no" towards his bedroom. I don't think he'll go there but is he fully capable of surprising us in service of a larger, non-continuous message?  Yes.

 

I think time will tell if she felt her limits were violated but I want to talk about Pamela's "consent" in that you're right, our views on it will be shaped by experience.  At that point, she was trapped.  Louie was telling her that he was in control.  Pamela had two choices there.  She could play it nice or fight him.  Fighting him wasn't working. So she "consented" to the kiss because she figured if she let him kiss her, he'd let her go.  And that's what happened.

 

I see it that way because I have been in similar situations.  I've been groped without my consent in bars.  Pushing the hand away just means another replaces it.  But grabbing the hand that was on my ass and sort of start "dancing" until I get get away?  That works better than any 'no' would.  I was once pursued by an older married man who was a client at work.  I had to keep turning him down.  He didn't respect my "no"  until I invented a boyfriend.  Then he backed off.

I've been in those situations, too, but not with someone I love as a friend, who's in love with me.

 

Pamela isn't a placater. She isn't an apologizer. She does not say yes when she means no. Part of the reason Louie has fallen for her, is that she is (or tries to be) as honest as a seven-year-old. This makes him trust her, and believe her, when she says things like what she said about Marc Maron.

 

Pamela's relationship with Louie isn't one where he's chasing her around the desk at the office, or groping her at a party or bar. They are longtime friends pushing each other's buttons. This was about trust, and the perversity of trust and honesty. Louie trusts Pamela because she's mean to him. She doesn't tell him he looks great when he's fat. She doesn't pretend to like anything she hates. That's the answer to "why do you like it?"

 

Why she does it is a little harder to figure out. Why does she say such mean things to her friend, and expect him to be nice to her? What does she want from him? If she just wanted him to leave her alone, she'd quit calling him. She wouldn't offer to date him.

 

He didn't have sex with her that night. It was just a kiss. If she'd done it to him we'd think it was sweet. He kissed her and let her go. If she had felt violated, I don't think she'd have gone out with him the next day. I think they were getting at the underlying meaning of the kiss, when they exchanged stories of their first kiss. Louie got to kiss a girl because she was dared to kiss him. It's a sad story--the girl didn't want to--she was dared. Louie says "I didn't care--I got to kiss (whatever the hot girl's name was)" But he did care, and he's been looking around for the laughing group behind the girl, ever since. That's why Pamela's meanness makes him feel safe. The laughing group of girls is out in front, not hidden behind her.

 

Did anyone else notice that Pamela's first kiss did not include an actual kiss? She ended up beating up the boy she wanted to kiss because he taunted her about cheating on him. She wanted the kiss, she wanted the love, but she was too angry at the way people were talking about her, lying about her, and she beat him up instead. And now she can't tell Louie she loves him, even though she does.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Hecate7

[DrSpaceman]

And this episode won an Emmy for outstanding writing.....disappointing if you ask me. Silicon Valley should have won, or I could name a number of better written episodes from things not nominated.

[peeayebee]

I thought all of the nominations in this category were deserving, but I was extremely please that this one won.

[annzeepark914]

And this was the episode that went on and on and on and on...

[Nanrad]

If LCK decided to hire a black actor to play a white character or a white actor to play a black character, that is fine.  All I am saying is that if you go to a flashback of the same character 20 years in the past and now the character is played by an actor of another race, it is confusing and can turn some viewers off.  I don't think that by doing that it makes LCK brilliant, other aspects of him do that.  On talk shows he talks about how he doesn't care if there is a show or not, this is a symptom of that.  It is a 40+ year old millionaire version of "Look what I can do and get away with it".    Show runners who care about another season, building their audience etc... would care more about continuity.  That is all I am saying. 

I don't think Louis doesn't care about those things or that he's being lazy, but since he does have the freedom to do what he wants, he does it if it fits his vision. This show is kind of surreal at times so it's not an issue for me that he's not consistent with race regarding Janet. He's not even consistent with his mother's characterization and his relationship with her. With Louis, it's about the story not continuity. And some fans may not like it, but it something I enjoy. I mean, the same woman who played a love interest of his also played his mother. 

[Milburn Stone]

This show is kind of surreal at times so it's not an issue for me that he's not consistent with race regarding Janet. He's not even consistent with his mother's characterization and his relationship with her.

 

I agree this is a non-problem, and one reason is that our experience of other people has so many conflicting dimensions in real life. If you asked me to dramatize my mother, for example, I'd ask you, which mother? The mother whose intense devotion I felt? The mother who caused me pain? The mother who was and remains a role model for me? The mother whose traits I decided to reject (even if I embody them despite myself)? I might cast an entirely different woman and write her an entirely different way depending on which mother I was trying to recreate. And all the portraits would be true to my subjective experience.

[Tara Ariano]

Louie attends a potluck supper in the Season 5 premiere.

[DiabLOL]

Well, I laughed quite a bit during this one and even though some moments reminded me of Woody Allen and Curb Your Enthusiasm I was relieved that things seem to be going in a different direction that the past season, which I loathed (except for the tub scene).

[peeayebee]

That was great. I figured that he and the woman would have sex -- esp since there was a sexual situation warning from FX -- and that she would go into labor, but it was still hilarious. Love when he told Marina, after her comment about his jizzing on his baby's head, "I didn't come."

 

What was that group at the first pot luck?

[Never Again]

Not my favorite, not too funny to me even on the standup, but the chicken looked great!

[JC65]

I was 80% convinced the first pot-luck was an orgy until they were revealed as a cult.

[Uncle Benzene]

My favorite parts were the ones I interpreted as some pretty delicious meta:

 

"I don't know if I'm any good anymore." (And the therapist falling asleep on him.) Which I think was a wink to the reactions to last season's almost complete lack of funny.

 

And then the whole thing at the door: "I'm not trying to... because I'm about to leave... seriously, I'm not... I'm going to leave..." Which I think was a wink to all the 'rapey!' criticism of the Pamela stuff last season.

[Lone Wolf]

What was that group at the first pot luck?

I don't think they were a "real" (outside Louie-universe) group. It seemed to be a non-specific-New-Age-cult gathering which provided the symbolic solution to Louie's enlightened realization that he was turning into a boring asshole who didn't really want to try anymore, e.g., "Forgive yourself, forgive yourself". Which he clearly didn't do. And (based on history) isn't likely to do.

Good ep. I'm glad we're back.

[cpcathy]

I just remembered where I saw the actor who said "Forgive yourself"-- the episode of SATC where Samantha tries on wigs!

[bilgistic]

I'm generally a fan of Louis CK and this show, but the pregnant woman wanting him to have sex with her was just beyond. I get this is humor, and even though I actually find his brand of schlub attractive, the notion that nearly every straight woman he encounters wants to have sex with him is both a gross cliched male fantasy and lazy writing at minimum.

[ganesh]

I only recall Louis having sex with Pamela. He's been on dates but I don't remember him having a lot of sex. This seemed like an extreme situation. The pregnant woman was hormonal on her own admission and basically feeling terrible because she was so lonely. I didn't have a problem with it. 

 

I thought the first pot luck was a swinger's party too. They didn't seem to care much that Louie showed up at the wrong place, which was nice. I was saying "get the chicken!"

 

How awful was that woman. She called Louis an asshole on the phone for wanting to come to the pot luck? I couldn't believe she basically shoved her partner out of the way while she was yelling at Louis. 

 

I really felt bad for the pregnant woman. She was basically being treated as a machine by the parents. 

[cpcathy]

The episodes I can remember Louie having sex, it's always a disaster. By no means was the pregnancy sex sexy, but Louie was actually so kind to her, I could see how a hormonal pregnant woman might want to for it.

[ganesh]

I remembered a little while ago that he had sex with the foreign woman before Pamela. Other than that, I think he got the blow job in the truck and then got his face punched. And then Joan Rivers. I know he went out with Parker Posey on that crazy date, but no sex. Assuming the show-time is like 4 years ish, that's around one sexual encounter a year, and he's gone on some dates. I think that's fairly normal for a single dad in a large city. 

[peeayebee]

He also had sex with Maria Bamford.

[Fisher King]

The episodes I can remember Louie having sex, it's always a disaster.

 

The one with Melissa Leo in her car is one of my favorites. 

 

Glad Louie is back!

[DrSpaceman]

I have just come to the conclusion this show is way too hit and miss for me and I just don't find his brand of completely awkward social situation humor that funny. This show was the same pattern.  Plus I knew the pregnaent lady was going to go into labor when he had sex with her, could see that coming.   

 

This episdoe was the same.  His show has its moments for me, but it just seems to consistently miss for me rather than amuse me.  And I know its not all meant to be comedy. 

 

Its just no longer of my list of must see shows each week.  This episode did nothing to change my mind. 

[hincandenza]

I kind of agree with you; I still think last season was often (but not always) brilliant, that it was more like an art film or Woody Allen + surrealist homage, while still hilariously funny at times.  That marijuana episode with Jeremy Renner, or the one during the storm, or the "so did the fat girl" episode, etc?  There was some really genius last year.

 

But this opener felt... cookie cutter.  His interactions with people are like a less slapstick and combative version of "Curb Your Enthusiasm": Louie runs into someone who he can't really lash out at for some supposed social etiquette reasons, but that person for some unexplained reason thinks yelling at a grown man is appropriate.  In CYE, Larry David would eventually get into a kind of amusing shouting match with a (parking attendant/barista/waiter/lawyer/etc), but here Louie just takes a beating and wanders off.  That's not funny, it's just sad and pathetic.

 

Actually, after his awkwardness at the (real) party, I thought we were going to cut to him just going back to 4A, because cult or no those people were way more fun.  Instead, we got this weird "I'm super horny/I'm in labor!" twist that I'm sure we all saw coming a mile away.  Since it was just a set up for the awful character Judy Gold was playing to have one last "funny" harangue of Louie... I have to question, why would anyone know about the attempt sex?  Just take her to the hospital, say she went into labor as you were dropping her off from a potluck party, and explain the soaking on your jeans as you helping her up, down the stairs, and into a cab.

 

There's no rule that says you have to tell everyone you meet who you have had sex with!  Not to mention, he could have been more forceful with "Uh, her private life and mine are none of your fucking business, but you know, you're fucking welcome that I brought your surrogate to the hospital", but it just seems that Louie the writer has fallen into this place of thinking the "awkward situation" is inherently funny.