S03.E09: Do Mail Robots Dream of Electric Sheep?

[Latverian Diplomat]

I do not like this gratuitous killing!  This was the worst one for me.  What's wrong with a disguise for Elizabeth in this situation???  Why did she go anyway?  To be a lookout?  They've done all kinds of things with a lookout. Couldn't they have found another way to have Elizabeth show some kind of normal emotions? 

It terms of the mission, it wasn't gratuitous. They couldn't have a break in reported when the FBI office is already under scrutiny. In terms of the show, I can see why you feel that way, but it wasn't gratuitous to me. This show has consistently had innocent people die, not always quickly either, and I respect them for not shying away from it.

 

Elizabeth doesn't kill for fun, but she doesn't hesitate to kill for the mission. She's a true believer and a patriot. This has always been part of her character and a point of difference with Philip, who has had moments of both ruthlessness and reluctance.

 

Older men did not serve four years overseas. Unless they were generals. I'm the daughter of a vet and niece of many and I just don't buy it. If you have an example of a man in his forties who liberated a camp overseas, tell me.

I personally think it was just sloppy writing because a woman who is 84 NOW Gould have been a WWII bride. At the very least the WWII thing was ahistorical, demanded explanation, and was written, in my opinion, solely to appeal to a contemporary audience and threw me right out of it. JFK served in WWII. Know how old he'd have been in 1983? Mid50s.

Not all people age the same, there are some people in their fifties or sixties who look older. Her husband was trained as a machinist in the Army. That works if he joined the Army before the war, got trained up, and then he's in a valuable skilled job, they are going to keep him around even if he's older, I think. (I don't know that any machinists were involved in liberating concentration camps, though). But, mostly, I think it boils down to, if you can get Lois Smith, you get Lois Smith.

 

This was a real first for me...I thought this ep was just awful. I didn't connect to anything in it except maybe Philip telling Gabriel to step off and even that was ruined by his ridiculous "lightning bolt" confession about Elizabeth. Why was that necessary? Also does Gabriel have a special Scrabble Game that only spits out words ominously relevant to the conversation?

 

...

 

Finally, as someone pointed out to me, bugging the mail robot? So you want to get snippets of desk conversation while the thing toots around in a circle? Who has ever had an important conversation around the Mail Robot?

What I didn't buy was Elizabeth leaving her alone for so long, and then giving her so much accurate information. Based on that glare when Elizabeth left to get the water, I thought there would be a note that said "I didn't kill myself, a woman who looked like ____ killed me" hidden among all the paperwork, or a dictaphone running in a desk drawer or something. I think the writers fell in love with this scene and cut some corners to force it to play out the way it did, which is unusual for this show, IMHO.

 

Yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense, to bug the Mail Robot. In addition to what you said, it's also a noisy piece of equipment. (And I wish they called it a delivery robot or something, because I keep thinking people are saying Male Robot, it's distracting). 

Edited March 26, 2015 by Latverian Diplomat

[Latverian Diplomat]

I think the writers copped out.  Elizabeth's victim is an old woman with a heart condition so bad she needs a transplant.  She doesn't want the transplant, and hates hospitals anyway. So she wouldn't want to die in one, right. 

 

She misses her deceased husband so much, she comes in at night to feel close to him.  She has no fear of death, and thinks she will

join him when she goes.  Hey, this is practically a mercy killing.

 

I would have made the bookkeeper  the son's young, pregnant wife.  The baby kicking is keeping her awake, so she comes in to catch up on her work.  Let Elizabeth deal with that situation.

I think one thing you're missing is Elizabeth's own dying mother makes this more difficult for her than you suggest.

[TeresaDee]

I think one thing you're missing is Elizabeth's own dying mother makes this more difficult for her than you suggest.

Yes, the connection to her own mother. Also, the Russians also fought the Nazis in WW II, suffered great loses, played a role in the liberation of those in the concentration camps.Her story was one she could connect to on different levels.

[Chaos Theory]

What I love about this show is that there are no wasted scenes. Even in quiet episodes like this one it doesn't feel like filler. We have Martha giving Clark valuable information during a creepy as dinner. We have both Philip and Elizabeth with sources who actually make better mates then each other on paper.

I loved the scenes with Elizabeth and the old lady. I know some people don't and I understand why but I didn't feel emotionally manipulated at all. I thought the scenes were done masterfully.

I thought the episode was fantastic.

[stillshimpy]

Absolutely, a big part of the reason for that woman's back-story, which did round the corner into dramatic excess to me, was that Elizabeth had no choice but to view her as an ally in a lot of ways.  They did go hog-wild with heart-string plucking, but it wasn't any coincidence that this woman could have been Elizabeth's own mother on a lot of levels, but for a geographical accident of birth and a few key twists of fate.  

 

If it had been a young, pregnant woman it actually would have been easier for Elizabeth to view her solely as someone who was basically on opponent on the opposite side of a conflict.  Betty (or for fuck's sake, show, really? You had to give her a derivative of the same name?  We. Friggin'. Get. It. 'kay?) was setup up to be , quite literally, someone Elizabeth had no choice but to view as an ally.....because they had been allies as little as two generations earlier.  

 

So anyway, I got what they were doing.  I just think it started flirting with dinner theater levels of obvious. 

 

 

 

Seems like it. I wonder if the Center even wants the mail robot bugged for eavesdropping purposes, or whether they're just setting it up to be discovered to implicate Gene as the mole.

 

Now that, I didn't get, but it is the only thing that makes even an iota of sense, because otherwise, seriously all the damned bug would get is the sound of the mail robot being opened and closed a bunch.  Filing.  It's not a chatty sport.  

 

For so long I have felt so sorry for Martha, but my sympathy started to abandon ship last night.   So she really is just that desperate to be loved and keep Clark?  Okay.  That's sad and downright pitiable .,.right before it hits the contemptibly pathetic category for me.  She knows Clark isn't who he says he is.  She has had people say the words KGB to her and she does what?  She goes the hell out of her way to start chatting about how Gaad is reacting? 

 

Well now you're just being willfully traitorous, Martha.  I hope you get caught.  

 

Also, may Hans, the self-starter, really bring something awful down on his own head.  Not that I felt a lot of sympathy for his victim, because to put it mildly, pro-apartheid boy can go to hell as far as I'm concerned (and likely did, if it exists), but Hans is a dangerous wild card. 

Edited March 26, 2015 by stillshimpy

[SunnyBeBe]

I just knew the elderly lady was a dead person when she saw Elizabeth without a disguise.  I do have some questions about that mission though.

First of all, when Elizabeth left the lady to get her a glass of water, did that lady write something in those files?  She had a pen in her hand and when Elizabeth returned she placed the file behind her.  She had enough time to write a description of the Elizabeth and a brief description of what had happened. She didn't have a name or other details at that point, but if someone checks that file, it could spell trouble. Am I reading too much into this?

 

My next question is about Philip repairing the robot.  How would he have training to repair, basically, a computer?  He left Russia many years ago, so how would he have those expertise?  

 

Also, initially, Philip and Elizabeth were told that Martha would be dealing with the robot.  So, is that still on or what?  Was that task then delegated to Philip, since he ended up there in the repair shop?  

 

I want to know when they are going to teach Martha how to pass a polygraph.  I would think they would be doing that pronto.

 

When Philip and the older man were playing scrabble, he said Elizabeth had rejected the first person that was to play her husband.  That doesn't ring true to me, based on the scenes they have shown previously of Philip meeting Elizabeth.  It didn't appear to be an optional thing to me.  I wonder if that was a way to make Philip feel closer to Elizabeth, so that he might lean more towards her desires to bring Page on board with her agenda.  I do wish Philip would be more careful with his words to this man.  I hope Philip doesn't forget that he can be taken down too.  He needs to play it smart.

 

What was that look that Gaad gave the new guy when Stan left the room? Did he have doubt the incident went down the way Stan claimed or was he concerned about Stan's competence?  

 

Sorry for so many questions, but this show really gets me to thinking.  lol

Edited March 26, 2015 by SunnyBeBe

[stillshimpy]

What was that look that Gaad gave the new guy when Stan left the room? Did he have doubt the incident went down the way Stan claimed or was he concerned about Stan's competence?

 

I think it's possible they believe Stan has started to lose his edge, or his marbles, but they've had him on babysitting duty -- doing things like confirming the defector's doctor's appointments and bringing her room service -- so it seems like Stan's star has fallen in the FBI quite a bit.  

[shura]

Stan should really be demoted to desk duty. His job was to make sure the KGB doesn't get close to Zinaida, he fumbled that utterly, and all Gaad says is go sleep it off and take some aspirin? Okay. 

 

She didn't.  She also mentioned she was very afraid of pain, and for most people, the idea of a bullet is much scarier than pills.

 

She could have bluffed though. If Elizabeth shoots her, the whole bug-the-mail-robot mission becomes pointless, as the FBI would disassemble the mail robot down to the last screw to make sure it was not tempered with. As far as Philip having skills to install the bug, it may not require much, just finding a place to attach it and maybe making sure it's powered by whatever powers the mail robot. 

 

I find it curious how Gabriel said that Elizabeth rejected the first officer offered as her partner, and so, in a way, chose Philip. I bet she didn't even know about Philip when they suggested the first guy, for compartmentalization reasons. So it's the act of rejecting him that Gabriel is trying to sell Philip as Elizabeth "choosing" him. If Philip was the first guy offered, and Elizabeth agreed, there could be no case made that she chose him, would there? Besides, after she turned down the first guy, the KGB was probably like "look, comrade, this is not the Dating Game, shape up and get with the program."

[mjc570]

While at first I wondered why they were bugging the mail-bot (because really, who talks about sensitive info in the hallway), I realize that intelligence-gathering was not the point. Using it to frame Gene has multiple benefits for the Russians: not only will he be seen as the mole, but it will reassure Martha, that she was not the only one bugging the office.

[stillshimpy]

She could have bluffed though. If Elizabeth shoots her, the whole bug-the-mail-robot mission becomes pointless, as the FBI would disassemble the mail robot down to the last screw to make sure it was not tempered with. As far as Philip having skills to install the bug, it may not require much, just finding a place to attach it and maybe making sure it's powered by whatever powers the mail robot.

 

Betty understood they were evil people, doing evil things, at least eventually,  but she didn't have that level of specificity at her disposal for bluffing anything.  

 

By the time she understood that Elizabeth was going to kill her, no matter what, it was too late to start any fencing moves.  She at first thought they were breaking in and whereas she understood what it meant by the time Elizabeth was saying "Russia", prior to that Betty reasonably assumed that they didn't want to be murderers ....because if that was the plan....far less chatting generally goes hand-in-hand with "you're going to be killed".   

Edited March 26, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Latverian Diplomat]

Now [bugging mail robot to frame someone], I didn't get, but it is the only thing that makes even an iota of sense, because otherwise, seriously all the damned bug would get is the sound of the mail robot being opened and closed a bunch.  Filing.  It's not a chatty sport.  

 

For so long I have felt so sorry for Martha, but my sympathy started to abandon ship last night.   So she really is just that desperate to be loved and keep Clark?  Okay.  That's sad and downright pitiable .,.right before it hits the contemptibly pathetic category for me.  She knows Clark isn't who he says he is.  She has had people say the words KGB to her and she does what?  She goes the hell out of her way to start chatting about how Gaad is reacting? 

FBI filing activity is up 5%! Alert Moscow. :-)

 

Martha is desperate enough to settle for marriage with a man who spends less than half his nights with her, keeps his own place, has no friends and almost no relatives that she has met. She should already suspect bigamy (which technically is true) so she's already in a heap of denial. I don't think her not breaking was the most likely outcome, but if she didn't break then her wanting to know as little as possible and keep the denial going seems to me the most plausible way for her to continue as Philip's asset.

 

Suffering makes people sympathetic, but it doesn't necessarily make them virtuous. Exploiting emotional frailty is one of the  of tools of spycraft. 

[sistermagpie]

I don't think that Elizabeth was using this chance to unburden herself to the older woman as much as the older woman was actively trying to engage Elizabeth in the hopes that it would humanize her and hopefully keep her from harm, and Elizabeth responded to that.

 

 

She responded to it by unburdening herself because she knew she was going to kill her and she could say what she wanted. 

 

We have Martha giving Clark valuable information during a creepy as dinner. We have both Philip and Elizabeth with sources who actually make better mates then each other on paper.

 

I didn't think that. As much as I loved the Martha/ Clark scene, there's nothing about Martha and Philip that makes sense on paper to me either. But in this ep they were a wonderfully believable scene to me. I loved Clark's pointed, "Who's Gene?" question, showing that they were now going to speak to each other differently, with him being more of his real self and Martha seeing that.

 

Also, small thing that I'm sure wasn't consciously thought out to this extent, but I love the pattern of Philip and food. It's not that he likes food so much, but he often responds well to people making him food as a gesture of welcome and care. Martha and her wine reminded me of Gabriel's fancy dinner with Elizabeth that took place in the same ep where Philip didn't even get leftovers.

 

Also, may Hans, the self-starter, really bring something awful down on his own head.  Not that I felt a lot of sympathy for his victim, because to put it mildly, pro-apartheid boy can go to hell as far as I'm concerned (and likely did, if it exists), but Hans is a dangerous wild card.

 

 

Todd was also somebody who didn't bug me that night--until I reminded myself what he stood for! I was hoping for him to get away and wondering how Hans would deal with that. Why even believe him that nobody saw him since he's apparently not very good at noticing when that happens? Plus, how did he get rid of that body?

 

Also, I hate Hans making sure to say he'll do anything for Elizabeth. Look, I love Elizabeth, but the "Elizabeth So Special" Club is getting really stupid. Even Philip, who used to be the person who loved her despite her flaws after living with her for years, was given an arbitrary lightning bolt to now start off his devotion. Like he's that guy in Twilight imprinting on the baby (or whatever that story is).

 

While at first I wondered why they were bugging the mail-bot (because really, who talks about sensitive info in the hallway), I realize that intelligence-gathering was not the point. Using it to frame Gene has multiple benefits for the Russians: not only will he be seen as the mole, but it will reassure Martha, that she was not the only one bugging the office.

 

 

 

And yet they want to change the tapes once a week. So not gathering much in the way of intel, but at least it offers high risk to the KGB of getting caught! Good plan!

[teddysmom]

I understand Elizabeth engaging with Betty was a plot device, but it seems unlikely that Elizabeth would just walk right into a room where she knows there could be someone that might over power her, and blow the mission.  Why not wait to see if whoever turned the light on would come downstairs?  Then it would be at least Elizabeth & Phillip against whoever it was.   

[lucindabelle]

Exactly. There was no reason for the scene to take place at all. Contrived.

Keri Russell is beautiful but the trope of men willing tio kill and die for her is beyond absurd.

And I did like Philip saying thank you for your permission.

[Bannon]

Exactly. There was no reason for the scene to take place at all. Contrived.

Keri Russell is beautiful but the trope of men willing tio kill and die for her is beyond absurd.

And I did like Philip saying thank you for your permission.

Apparently, Nina and Elizabeth could combine forces and achieve total world domination, so deep is their infuence over half the human race.

[stillshimpy]

Martha is desperate enough to settle for marriage with a man who spends less than half his nights with her, keeps his own place, has no friends and almost no relatives that she has met. She should already suspect bigamy (which technically is true) so she's already in a heap of denial. I don't think her not breaking was the most likely outcome, but if she didn't break then her wanting to know as little as possible and keep the denial going seems to me the most plausible way for her to continue as Philip's asset.

 

On a lot of levels, I know you're right.  Even though Martha is the person who insisted they marry and has actually had some standards for Clark to meet within the relationship, where she has pushed for and achieved what she wants, she's settling.  

 

Now, I do think it is important that Clark doesn't view her as pathetic or desperate.  He's found her challenging to manage, as he told Elizabeth "You don't know her". about the foster kid, indicating that Philip believes that Martha will go after what she wants.  

 

However, you're right.  There is an inherent desperation in any person being willing to settle for a secret marriage, only a few days a week.  

 

Still, there's "I want to be loved so much that I will settle for scraps" and then there's the realization that someone has ingratiated himself into your life to use you for something.  Martha should have come to the latter conclusion and instead, she decided to swerve well into "I really am now openly acknowledging my own desperation...and am willing to commit treason to do it."   I don't even own an American flag, for real.  It's partially because my mom is actually from a different country so I never really did grow up around much "USA!USA! We're infallible!" stuff, but it's also just that aside from liking Christmas trees, I'm not a particularly demonstrative person about what I believe or feel.   

I didn't, for instance, choose to go work for the Federal government, which would indicate some belief in the whole system of Truth, Justice, yada yada, blada blada.  Martha did choose that job though and so I guess I'd assume that she has some patriotism within her.  I sincerely believe that my non-flag owning butt would turn red, white and apoplexy blue if someone floated anything resembling ,"Hey, you up for a spot of treason?" ideas in my direction.   

So that's why I'm just astounded that Martha went out of her way to bring up Gaad.   Sure, Clark walking in the door was part of  a confirmation to Martha that he must care, must love her, must trust her, that he walked in the door and didn't expect a squad of goons with handcuffs....but that he must have known he was risking that.  I get the concept that this acted as a much needed confirmation about how Clark must feel, in Martha's poor, desperate heart.  

 

It was the "Now I will start blabbing, on purpose, about Gaad." that nearly made me fall over.  My butt might have turned a few colors there.  

 

Onward though, the worst part of Empathy Betty, Casualty of Elizabeth's Cause was that ...they really did go nuts with the "and this will ring an empathy bell and so will this and so will this and so will...." when they had to gift Empathy Betty with a husband she briefly divorced and then remarried, so that we'd have an empathy hit for Elizabeth on the Martha front too.  

 

Good. God. 

Edited March 26, 2015 by stillshimpy

[shura]

By the time she understood that Elizabeth was going to kill her, no matter what, it was too late to start any fencing moves.  She at first thought they were breaking in and whereas she understood what it meant by the time Elizabeth was saying "Russia", prior to that Betty reasonably assumed that they didn't want to be murderers ....because if that was the plan....far less chatting generally goes hand-in-hand with "you're going to be killed".

 

Maybe bluffing was not the right word here. Once Betty realizes that she has spies in the shop who are going to kill her, why not make a last-ditch effort to save herself? They probably don't want anybody to know they were there, and Betty's violent death (or disappearance) will certainly alert the authorities and make them take a closer look. For all she knows, it's not impossible that they'll cancel the whole thing, threaten Betty to keep her quiet, and let her live. What really gives her zero chance of survival is just going along with Elizabeth's plan and popping those pills. I guess she just didn't think of that, or simply didn't want to fight for her life for some reason.

 

Sure, Clark walking in the door was part of  a confirmation to Martha that he must care, must love her, must trust her, that he walked in the door and didn't expect a squad of goons with handcuffs....but that he must have known he was risking that.

 

Ha, he totally did expect all that. He was looking around when he came in ever so gingerly.

Edited March 26, 2015 by shura

[stillshimpy]

Maybe bluffing was not the right word here. Once Betty realizes that she has spies in the shop who are going to kill her, why not make a last-ditch effort to save herself? They probably don't want anybody to know they were there, and Betty's violent death (or disappearance) will certainly alert the authorities and make them take a closer look. For all she knows, it's not impossible that they'll cancel the whole thing, threaten Betty to keep her quiet, and let her live. What really gives her zero chance of survival is just going along with Elizabeth's plan and popping those pills. I guess she just didn't think of that, or simply didn't want to fight for her life for some reason.

 

Again, by the time Betty would have understood that Elizabeth was a Russian Spy , or a spy of any kind, it was pretty late in the game and she was astute enough to make a leap of logic:  If she has a Russian spy in her office, who is speaking flawless English, then they are not just going to kill her to protect their cause and get rid of the body....that they'll also kill her son to make sure no one asks questions if they have to.    

 

Yes, that would draw down an investigation, but then all they'd have to do is make it look like a robbery gone wrong.  Betty essentially asked, "If I go along with this, you won't hurt my son, right?"  She really did ask about her son's safety.  So that's supposed to be part of what motivated her.   

 

Heh, which weirdly enough takes me back to my prior post:  Yeah, I don't own a flag.  I do have a son though and he'd occur to me long, long before "My country tis of thee...." would strike up the band in my head.  Betty's priorities reflected a person who worked for a repair shop run by her son.  It was the only part that rang really true to me.  

 

Perhaps because it was about the only character note that wasn't designed to strike a chord with Elizabeth.  

Betty: "I'm totally putting my son's welfare and safety above concerns for my country!"  

 

Elizabeth: "Huh.  Nope.  Con't relate to that one."  

Edited March 26, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Penman61]

I think the writers copped out.  Elizabeth's victim is an old woman with a heart condition so bad she needs a transplant.  She doesn't want the transplant, and hates hospitals anyway. So she wouldn't want to die in one, right. 

 

She misses her deceased husband so much, she comes in at night to feel close to him.  She has no fear of death, and thinks she will join him when she goes.  Hey, this is practically a mercy killing.

 

I would have made the bookkeeper  the son's young, pregnant wife.  The baby kicking is keeping her awake, so she comes in to catch up on her work.  Let Elizabeth deal with that situation.

 

I would have made the bookkeeper a plucky teenage girl who survived cancer and brings both her shelter-rescue arthritic boxer and her paraplegic calico kitten (named "Ironside") to work; she bookkeeps at night to support her mother who has no limbs and her father who's a lovable layabout.  She's just had her first blush of young love but hasn't yet kissed, and now she never will: "That would have been nice, I guess," she says to Elizabeth, slipping into death.  Her last words: "I wonder: Will I dream?" 

 

Oh, and she's played by the actress who plays Paige: but in a blonde wig.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Penman61

[Bannon]

I would have made the bookkeeper a plucky teenage girl who survived cancer and brings both her shelter-rescue arthritic boxer and her paraplegic calico kitten (named "Ironside") to work; she bookkeeps at night to support her mother who has no limbs and her father who's a lovable layabout.  She's just had her first blush of young love but hasn't yet kissed, and now she never will: "That would have been nice, I guess," she says to Elizabeth, slipping into death.  Her last words: "I wonder: Will I dream?" 

 

Oh, and she's played by the actress who plays Paige: but in a blonde wig.

Or the bookeeper could beat Elizabeth nearly senseless, while taunting her, and then sit down, and tell Elizabeth she's seen attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion, then say "Time to die", and then, while doing just that, could release a white dove she's kept concealed in her hand the entire time. Elizabeth, for the first time, begins to doubt the purity of her cause..... 

Edited March 26, 2015 by Bannon

[lucindabelle]

The paraplegic calico cat had me laughing out loud. Thank you!

[mommydogmom]

I was JUST thinking the same thing about Elizabeth after last night's episode.  She's a knockout, but she's a knockout for her age, which is late 30s at least. The only way Hans would be so smitten with her is if he has some serious mommy issues.  I started feeling the same way about Fiona in Burn Notice  -- there has to come a point pretty quickly when neither Elizabeth nor Fiona can stroll into a bar and instantly command the worship of any man they target. 

Martha has become one of my favorites which is a 180 shift from how I viewed her at first.  I think that Phillip/Clark has come to value what an amazing woman she is, her character, her basic goodness. It has to be obvious to Phillip that Elizabeth, in Martha's place, would have shot him between the eyes by now instead of making him spaghetti.  After Phllip's defiant speech to Gabriel, it isn't out of the question that Elizabeth would still kill him herself to end the debate about Paige. Compared to Elizabeth, in every category except straight up looks, Martha is a better person, a better friend, a better woman and frankly a better wife.  IAnd Martha has become very beautiful in my eyes while Elizabeth looks hard and ugly to me now.

My fantasy scenario would be that Phllip comes completely clean with Martha, takes her with him, grabs the kids and goes to his friend Stan to defect and get them all into Witness Relocation.  It would be a much happier family and I think Martha would be a better mom for the kids, too. 

[BW Manilowe]

I just knew the elderly lady was a dead person when she saw Elizabeth without a disguise. I do have some questions about that mission though.

First of all, when Elizabeth left the lady to get her a glass of water, did that lady write something in those files? She had a pen in her hand and when Elizabeth returned she placed the file behind her. She had enough time to write a description of the Elizabeth and a brief description of what had happened. She didn't have a name or other details at that point, but if someone checks that file, it could spell trouble. Am I reading too much into this?

My next question is about Philip repairing the robot. How would he have training to repair, basically, a computer? He left Russia many years ago, so how would he have those expertise?

Also, initially, Philip and Elizabeth were told that Martha would be dealing with the robot. So, is that still on or what? Was that task then delegated to Philip, since he ended up there in the repair shop?

I want to know when they are going to teach Martha how to pass a polygraph. I would think they would be doing that pronto.

When Philip and the older man were playing scrabble, he said Elizabeth had rejected the first person that was to play her husband. That doesn't ring true to me, based on the scenes they have shown previously of Philip meeting Elizabeth. It didn't appear to be an optional thing to me. I wonder if that was a way to make Philip feel closer to Elizabeth, so that he might lean more towards her desires to bring Page on board with her agenda. I do wish Philip would be more careful with his words to this man. I hope Philip doesn't forget that he can be taken down too. He needs to play it smart.

What was that look that Gaad gave the new guy when Stan left the room? Did he have doubt the incident went down the way Stan claimed or was he concerned about Stan's competence?

Sorry for so many questions, but this show really gets me to thinking. lol

The old lady actually did have Elizabeth's name (& her real American 1, at that). At least at some point. OK maybe it wasn't the specific point you're referencing, but Elizabeth did tell the old lady her name was Elizabeth at 1 point. And I wanted to kick her when she did, 'cause (I thought) she could've/should've made up a name to tell her.

It seems to me there's/there's gonna be some sort of reason/motive for Elizabeth to have been so honest with/opened herself up to the old lady like she did (disclosing her real American first name, that she's married & her husband's also in the same line of work [which the old lady seemed to get was spying once she also heard that Elizabeth's Mother's Russian], that she has kids, & anything else I've forgotten). I'm just not sure yet what it is, other than I don't think she was just making small talk & trying to put the woman at ease before she had to die 'cause she knew too much.

[lucindabelle]

Yeah actually the woman who plays martha is rather attractive, she was uglified early on. She has dimples and good skin and really. Rather nice curvy figure.

That said, I do ink even teenagers are drawn to women in their thirties and even early forties if the women are that gorgeous. Elizabeth looks more sophisticated and womanly than a girl his age would. In five more years this will be untrue but right now she's at her peak, I'd say.

Hell I'm late forties and could count on that attention until about three years ago (though I look young for my age).

But I think Nina is more beautiful and soft looking. Still, im beginning to really like looking at martha. Her nose is an it long and her face a little wide but her cheekbones are high. With a better haircut she can and does look much better.

http://www.poptower.com/alison-wright-picture-116768.htm

Edited March 26, 2015 by lucindabelle

[Bannon]

I was JUST thinking the same thing about Elizabeth after last night's episode.  She's a knockout, but she's a knockout for her age, which is late 30s at least. The only way Hans would be so smitten with her is if he has some serious mommy issues.  I started feeling the same way about Fiona in Burn Notice  -- there has to come a point pretty quickly when neither Elizabeth nor Fiona can stroll into a bar and instantly command the worship of any man they target. 

Martha has become one of my favorites which is a 180 shift from how I viewed her at first.  I think that Phillip/Clark has come to value what an amazing woman she is, her character, her basic goodness. It has to be obvious to Phillip that Elizabeth, in Martha's place, would have shot him between the eyes by now instead of making him spaghetti.  After Phllip's defiant speech to Gabriel, it isn't out of the question that Elizabeth would still kill him herself to end the debate about Paige. Compared to Elizabeth, in every category except straight up looks, Martha is a better person, a better friend, a better woman and frankly a better wife.  IAnd Martha has become very beautiful in my eyes while Elizabeth looks hard and ugly to me now.

My fantasy scenario would be that Phllip comes completely clean with Martha, takes her with him, grabs the kids and goes to his friend Stan to defect and get them all into Witness Relocation.  It would be a much happier family and I think Martha would be a better mom for the kids, too. 

If only Martha was a widow with a couple young'uns, we could have a Brady Bunch espionage 4 camera sitcom. 

[Uncle Benzene]

I was JUST thinking the same thing about Elizabeth after last night's episode.  She's a knockout, but she's a knockout for her age, which is late 30s at least. The only way Hans would be so smitten with her is if he has some serious mommy issues.  I started feeling the same way about Fiona in Burn Notice  -- there has to come a point pretty quickly when neither Elizabeth nor Fiona can stroll into a bar and instantly command the worship of any man they target.

 

Gonna have to go ahead and beg to differ. Keri Russell absolutely could walk into a bar right this minute and command the worship of any (otherwise unattached) man she were to target. And how. Especially younger men. It's not so much (or at all) about "mommy issues" (though I suppose perhaps mileage varies in the psychiatric profession) but I can pretty much guarantee -- guarantee -- that every single young man, no exceptions, every single young man who has ever lived, has or has had a Mrs. Robinson fetish. Or at least goes through a "phase" where he has one. And when Mrs. Robinson looks like Keri Russell??? Um... yeah.

[stillshimpy]

Whereas I can't agree that pretty much every man goes through a Mrs. Robinson fetish, I do think that most men very willingly overlook or discount age if it is eclipsed by hotness.  

 

The acronym MILF became a thing for a reason too.  Sure, there will be the odd guy here and there who would just not find someone attractive based on an age gap of ....at most in this case...fifteen years and I do agree that it gets a little giggle-worthy when Nina is so completely able to enthrall everyone...including a presumably straight Belgium spy, to the extent that they can no longer practice any self-protecting instincts.  

 

But....yeah, the though tthat Hans wouldn't go for Elizabeth because she's too old and shriveled just cracks me up.  It doesn't even matter if there are guys in life who would think "Ew! She has oldness cooties!" because clearly, Hans isn't one of them and it isn't such a plausibility challenge as to be much of a stumbling block for most, I would think.  

Edited March 26, 2015 by stillshimpy

[sistermagpie]

My fantasy scenario would be that Phllip comes completely clean with Martha, takes her with him, grabs the kids and goes to his friend Stan to defect and get them all into Witness Relocation.  It would be a much happier family and I think Martha would be a better mom for the kids, too.

 

 

I think Philip would be miserable with Martha. Martha gets a sliver of who he is--and he's consumed by guilt about her. He's not dumping his whole screwed up-ness on her the way he can at least with Elizabeth. Martha's a very nice person and he likes her for that, but that's good for a brief vacation for Philip. He's not in love with her. He doesn't love her country. They practically live on different planets. Her being blandly nice would not make the kids happy with her as a mother. Martha doesn't love Philip and Philip doesn't love Martha. He just recognizes that she's a perfectly good person deserving of love from somebody.

 

Also, why would the FBI be happily offering Philip a cozy retirement plan in Witness Relocation? If he wants to defect he can join the other side of the Cold War and spend his days as a double agent or at least training the FBI to hunt down and catch his countrymen. Defection means betraying his country.

 

It seems to me there's/there's gonna be some sort of reason/motive for Elizabeth to have been so honest with/opened herself up to the old lady like she did (disclosing her real American first name, that she's married & her husband's also in the same line of work [which the old lady seemed to get was spying once she also heard that Elizabeth's Mother's Russian], that she has kids, & anything else I've forgotten). I'm just not sure yet what it is, other than I don't think she was just making small talk & trying to put the woman at ease before she had to die 'cause she knew too much.

 

 

 

She just likes telling the truth and in this case she was telling it to somebody she wanted to approve of her before she died.

Edited March 26, 2015 by sistermagpie

[PinkRibbons]

A thing about Russian attitudes towards The War: in the early 1990s, right after the Soviet Union collapsed, food was so scarce that my mother's jobless half-sister in Russia sent her kids to kindergarten just so they could be fed. At one point, they received some humanitarian aid in the form of chocolate bars for the children -- the only thing was, that chocolate came from Germany, and the parents had to sign for it. My aunt told my mother that it was "extremely humiliating". Now, to be clear, this was two generations removed from the war, and her own parents had been too young to fight.

 

It's hard to explain the kind of impact WW2 had on the Soviet populace for years to come. Decades after the war there were no grandfathers, few fathers and no places to live (so much having been bombed out). The one thing people remembered till the end, no matter what the government said about America, was that American food had saved their lives. Literally, someone would say "the Americans are the scourge of the world!" and a war survivor would reply, "spam, powdered eggs, and chocolate".

 

Elizabeth may hate the Americans, but when it comes to the war she has no way to deny that they were allies, and that America helped save them. I understand her particular reticence against harming the widow of a war hero.

[BW Manilowe]

FBI filing activity is up 5%! Alert Moscow. :-)

Martha is desperate enough to settle for marriage with a man who spends less than half his nights with her, keeps his own place, has no friends and almost no relatives that she has met. She should already suspect bigamy (which technically is true) so she's already in a heap of denial. I don't think her not breaking was the most likely outcome, but if she didn't break then her wanting to know as little as possible and keep the denial going seems to me the most plausible way for her to continue as Philip's asset.

Suffering makes people sympathetic, but it doesn't necessarily make them virtuous. Exploiting emotional frailty is one of the of tools of spycraft.

Philip (as "Clark") & Martha had a ceremony, yes. But after the ceremony the license & whatever else makes it legal had to be filed with the city. Philip/Clark told Martha he'd take care of it & either she gave it to him, no questions asked, or he just took it (I forget which). And then he *never* actually filed it; he never had any intention of doing so.

Plus, at least at times, it's seemed somewhat unclear if Philip & Elizabeth themselves ever actually went through a legal marriage ceremony. We've never seen 1 in flashback, or anything; our earliest flashback of them was set when they checked into a rather cheap looking motel somewhere in DC, when they initially arrived in town after they were supposed to have already been married to each other. The scene where, I think, Elizabeth told Philip she wasn't ready to have sex with him yet, & he said OK but reminded her The Centre would expect them to start that sooner rather than later, 'cause they were eventually supposed to have children together. For all we know, Philip & Elizabeth may only be "married" by virtue of possessing papers that look legal in the US, but were created by the KGB, & say they're married when they really aren't.

So, while bigamy is implied by Philip/Clark's marriage to Martha--since he's already (supposed to be) married to Elizabeth--I'm not sure it's a legitimate worry. Especially if it's not even completely clear Philip & Elizabeth are legally married to each other.

mommydogmom: In the Pilot, despite orders (pretty much) from Moscow telling Philip & Elizabeth only to talk to each other as if they had been native-born Americans their entire lives; don't ever speak in Russian, or disclose anything about their lives in the Soviet Union, to each other, Elizabeth tells Philip, at 1 point, that her Russian name is Nadezhda; that her father was in the Russian Military & died in either the battle of Stalingrad or Leningrad (1 of the "grads" anyway, & I forget which) when she was 2. She also tells him her subsequently single mother, among other things, worked for the Communist Party in their hometown--Nadezhda/Elizabeth was born in Smolensk.

Whichever "grad" battle Nadezhda/Elizabeth's father was said to have died in, it was a real battle--during World War II, I think. Since Nadezhda/Elizabeth was supposed to be 2 when it happened & her father died in it, I think we previously had extrapolated from that that Nadezhda/Elizabeth was actually supposed to be in her early 40s (40 or 41), not in her 30s, when the show started.

Edited March 26, 2015 by BW Manilowe

[VCRTracking]

Man, if Gaad hadn't lost his temper, that poor old lady would still be alive.

At first I was confused because she said her husband fought in WWII I pictured them being in their 20s. Then she said later she and her husband got divorced and then he was married to another woman until she died and they got remarried and it lasted 27 years.  I realized it's because that's how people her age today would have in that young. In 1983, she would have been in her 40s. Looking up IMDB, the actress, Lois Smith(who has been a lot of things I've seen), is 85, so she would have been married to her husband then got divorced in the 1920s, remarried in the 1930s and he died during the 1960s.

As bad as I felt or her, I knew the woman was a goner when Elizabeth first saw her and she wasn't going to talk her way out this. I was more how are Phillip and Elizabeth going to get away because they can't make it look like murder, because that would be a huge red flag to the Feds that something's up. Making her OD on her own medication was a cruel but expedient solution.

[Penman61]

For those who've read Dick's novel: My recollection is that Deckard (like Elizabeth) must kill someone (an android) he ends up connecting to--an opera singer, I think?  And for extra resonance, I think she has a Russian name, Lubov?  

Edited March 26, 2015 by Penman61

[Latverian Diplomat]

So, while bigamy is implied by Philip/Clark's marriage to Martha--since he's already (supposed to be) married to Elizabeth--I'm not sure it's a legitimate worry. Especially if it's not even completely clear Philip & Elizabeth are legally married to each other.

My point was just that while Philip's behavior and actions are those of a bigamist, that's not really the heart of the matter.

 

If that was technically an inappropriate use of the word "technically" then I plead guilty. :-) 

[crgirl412]

On a medical sidebar that I was freaking out about:

 

I'm a neuro nurse so these kind of things fire me up:  If Stan had an internal head bleed from the too hard hit from Oleg, taking aspirin and alcohol are the WORST since they both thin the blood and could make it much worse.  He could also have a concussion and going to sleep period and then with that mixture, could be deadly.  BUT........  I understand that what they knew in 1983 about head trauma was much less than today but he still should've gone to the hospital but not sure how he would've explained it....  

 

Off of my medical soapbox now! 

Edited March 27, 2015 by crgirl412

[sistermagpie]

For all we know, Philip & Elizabeth may only be "married" by virtue of possessing papers that look legal in the US, but were created by the KGB, & say they're married when they really aren't.

 

 

We know they didn't have a marriage ceremony. Elizabeth said so at Clark and Martha's wedding.

[attica]

If Fifth Estate-era Cumberbatch had a baby with Freddie (Norman Bates) Hightower, the result would be the kid playing Hans.

[Latverian Diplomat]

My next question is about Philip repairing the robot.  How would he have training to repair, basically, a computer?  He left Russia many years ago, so how would he have those expertise?  

 

Also, initially, Philip and Elizabeth were told that Martha would be dealing with the robot.  So, is that still on or what?  Was that task then delegated to Philip, since he ended up there in the repair shop?  

 

The mail robot is basically a secure cabinet on wheels, with a computer attached. Phiilip wasn't fixing it, he was mounting the recorder, probably in a place that hid it well, without requiring the key to get to it. To the extent that his work involved the electronics at all, it would have been to leech power from the power supply. I'm sure he's trained to do both of those things. In any case, the problem with the robot seemed to be the locking mechanism, which was why it was sent to a machine shop for repair. It's more of a locksmith job than anything, so Philip actually would have a good chance of being able to fix it (but that's not what he was doing).

 

I think the discussion of Martha handling it was about who would change the tapes. Gabriel said not to worry about that, they will find someone else to do it.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Latverian Diplomat

[maczero]

Could the old lady have been any more of a problematic kill for Elizabeth? Husband liberated Nazi camps. Check. And rejected Christianity. Check. Sage quote about justifying evil. Check. But I can't see her ever changing. She'll be bloodthirsty to the end.

Bloodthirsty is the wrong word to describe Elizabeth.  She's never taken any joy in killing.  She just knows it goes with the territory and usually won't beat herself up about it when she has to do it.

Nina must be magic in bed, or maybe it's her stunning looks, and sadness, or helplessness that causes the men to risk everything for her?

Ha!  I was thinking Nina must have some killer pussy if she's got men on both sides willing to commit treason for her.

 

What I didn't buy was Elizabeth leaving her alone for so long, and then giving her so much accurate information. Based on that glare when Elizabeth left to get the water, I thought there would be a note that said "I didn't kill myself, a woman who looked like ____ killed me" hidden among all the paperwork, or a dictaphone running in a desk drawer or something.

That's a great idea!  I hope it plays out that way.

 

My next question is about Philip repairing the robot.  How would he have training to repair, basically, a computer?  He left Russia many years ago, so how would he have those expertise?  

Phillip doesn't need to know how to repair a computer.  He just needs to know where to place the bug so it won't be discovered.  I suspect it's just a matter of knowing how to use a screwdriver and choosing a location that conceals the bug.  That said, it did seem to take a really long time.

I didn't, for instance, choose to go work for the Federal government, which would indicate some belief in the whole system of Truth, Justice, yada yada, blada blada.  Martha did choose that job though and so I guess I'd assume that she has some patriotism within her.

As a former fed gov't employee, I can tell you from my experience most of them are there for the job security.  We used to joke that you would have to go on a shooting spree before you got reprimanded. 

 

Yeah actually the woman who plays martha is rather attractive, she was uglified early on. She has dimples and good skin and really. Rather nice curvy figure.

http://www.poptower.com/alison-wright-picture-116768.htm

Wow!  She does look really good!

 

Speaking of Martha, she better be playing Clark.  If she's actively going along with treason then she deserves whatever consequences await her if the FBI catch up to her.

 

Elizabeth and the old lady.  That was tough.  I was thinking it would've been far more merciful for Elizabeth to assure Betty that she would let her go once they finish and then shoot her in the back of the head.  Logically, an accidental overdose was the smarter move but still it was cold.

[Umbelina]

This has some really interesting theories about that scene with Martha, and especially that phone call.  The second one is my favorite, that she's already turned herself in, and they are using her much as they used Nina.  She WAS particularly robotic and agreeable when Clark came home, and that Mail Robot information came out immediately.  The phone call JUST as Clark entered? 

 

Things might have just become extremely interesting with Martha. 

 

I still think the KGB has another mole in the FBI, from what Gabriel said. 

 

Philip confronting and challenging Gabriel made me feel the same way I felt when Arkady smarted off to the Minister of Transportation, just kind of a disconnect for me, why give yourself away?

 

oops, forgot link.

http://www.ew.com/recap/the-americans-season-3-episode-9/2

Isn’t it a little odd that the “Children’s Services” call came in just as “Clark” arrived at the apartment? And that it was dispatched so cleanly?

Maybe that was the FBI checking that everything was copacetic after “Clark” entered the apartment. If Martha hadn’t answered the phone, or felt endangered and uttered an alarm word, that apartment could have been flooded with agents.

Instead, she keeps her cool, goes about dinner, and supplies Philip with a handy little piece of actionable intelligence: the mail robot has been damaged and sent off-site for repairs.

 

As far as the deaths?  This is a spy show.  People die on spy shows.  The difference is, we are getting to know some of them before they die, quite well in some cases.  On other shows, they are lucky if they get a line to say before they're killed.  I love that death isn't quite so "easy" on this show, not just random strangers blown away from a distance, or in firefights.

 

NOW, I can't stop thinking that Martha is working with Gaad already!  It makes so much sense!

Edited March 26, 2015 by Umbelina

[Shriekingeel]

Elizabeth deserves a slow painful month long death. There was no reason to kill that old lady. That building should have been staked out, and several look outs would have helped the situtation greatly. That old ladies death is the last straw. I don't care how many phony baloney tears Elizabeth sheds.

A thousand times This.

[sistermagpie]

This has some really interesting theories about that scene with Martha, and especially that phone call.  The second one is my favorite, that she's already turned herself in, and they are using her much as they used Nina.  She WAS particularly robotic and agreeable when Clark came home, and that Mail Robot information came out immediately.  The phone call JUST as Clark entered?

Things might have just become extremely interesting with Martha.

 

 

I think they're more interesting if they're as we see them. If Martha's working Clark and we don't see it, there's no suspense either way in that direction. If she's working Clark and we see it next week it's a total rewrite of everything we've seen at the office so far. Also the FBI is responsible for the murder of Betty since she died in a break-in they set up. Philip and Elizabeth ought to be already blown completely so surely they shouldn't be able to continue the Kimmie arc. 

 

I think the phone call works better as the emotional beat it was supposed to be--Martha's dropping her illusions about her marriage to Clark and trying to deal with the man she thinks she knows now.

[teddysmom]

If Stan had an internal head bleed from the too hard hit from Oleg, taking aspirin and alcohol are the WORST since they both thin the blood and could make it much worse.

 

I never heard about mixing beer and aspirin.  I have heard tylenol and coffee taken together gets the tylenol into your bloodstream faster and it works faster for a headache.  Not a bleeding type head injury. 

 

Re: Martha - I've read a couple reviews where it's surmised that Martha's playing the long con with Clark, the FBI is using her to catch him.   Suggested that the adoption agency phone call happening right as he comes in was not coincidental, it's the FBI agents who have the apartment under surveillance.   It makes sense, because just because Martha found out Clark isn't "Agent Tappett", wouldn't she then be, "well then who the fuck are you?!!" 

 

"I'm fine, it's fine, we're fine, it's all fine Clark".  Who's the mail robot now?

[Umbelina]

Aderholt and Gaad sure don't seem to be trusting Stan anymore.  I thought it was pretty stupid of Stan to meet up with the KGB right when the entire office is under suspicion and likely being followed. 

 

That was the most unbelievable stuff of all to me.  Stan would have to be incredibly naive to not think the FBI already has his phone tapped, and he is being tailed.  He's one of the key people who had access to Gaad's office, and he already blew it emotionally on the Nina case, quite publicly really. 

[scrb]

Elizabeth didn't have to go into the office.  She could have waited by the door to see if she would come to the shop area where Philip was.

 

And it's convenient that the woman had pills so there would be a plausible reason for her death which wouldn't arouse suspicion.

 

As it is, the FBI has been bugged and an employee at the shop where a sensitive piece of equipment is being repaired is suddenly found dead?

 

 

So Elizabeth cried at the end but will it soften her commitment to the cause, if she continues to kill innocents, take part in gruesome murders and ultimately turn her children over to the state?

[Umbelina]

I don't think the mail robot was a sensitive piece of equipment.  It's about a step above a trash compactor really, and less sensitive than a copy machine, which can keep records of anything it's copied.

[SunnyBeBe]

I agree about Stan.  His behavior seems to careless, IMO.  If the FBI catches him cavorting around with a Russian, it's going to really look bad for him.  He can explain, but it's too late at that point.  

 

I'm so glad that finally Martha is getting some popularity.  I've loved her character from day one.  She's in unchartered waters now.  I still can't believe she would turn on Clarke though.  If it was a set up, then why wouldn't the FBI had closed in on Philip and Elizabeth when they broke into the repair shop.  If they were watching, they would not have allowed the lady to go inside that night.  Once they got a tail on Philip, I can't imagine they would stop following him.

[scrb]

Sensitive in the sense that it will be used within the FBI.

 

So if there's something suspicious about the place where it was stored before being returned to the FBI, it should be investigated.

[sistermagpie]

So if there's something suspicious about the place where it was stored before being returned to the FBI, it should be investigated.

 

 

Maybe I'm remembering this wrong, but I swear I remember that when Gaad was saying "How long was she alone?" I thought they were talking about Betty for just this reason. But he really meant Zinaida. 

[heisey]

I, too, wondered about the phone call Martha received.  It reminded me of the coded phone calls P & E receive when the Centre needs to communicate with them.  And Martha was a little too quick to volunteer the information about Gaad and the mailbot.  So it's possible she's been flipped.

 

Another possibility is that the FBI has fed information to Martha and possibly the other suspects, on the theory that the person who placed the bug will pass it on to his/her handler.  Then they can just wait and see whether any of the planted information is acted on. 

 

Then there's Stan's collaboration with Oleg.  If it's discovered, Stan would become the prime suspect.  I wonder if the computer guy remembers printing out the surveillance logs on Oleg for Stan.  If the computer guy becomes a focus of the investigation, I could see him using that information to try to save himself.  If the collaboration with Stan is discovered, Oleg would likely be declared persona non grata and find himself back in Russia, whether he want to be there or not. 

 

So many possibilities!

[shura]

If Martha's working Clark and we don't see it, there's no suspense either way in that direction. If she's working Clark and we see it next week it's a total rewrite of everything we've seen at the office so far.

 

It doesn't have to contradict what we've been shown, so it doesn't have to be a rewrite necessarily. Many movies dealing with stings or cons just don't show everything at first. It's just that this show hasn't used this device yet (or did they, with Jared? I forgot). I think it could be done well, but I like con movies.

 

Another possibility is that the FBI has fed information to Martha and possibly the other suspects, on the theory that the person who placed the bug will pass it on to his/her handler.

 

I can see that - each suspect is given a name of a different repair shop (they've all seen Gaad making a show out of his frustration with the robot), each shop receives a mail robot, they come back, are swept for bugs and... all robots have them! Some of them even several, of different countries of manufacture. Taffet is going to lose it!