Lightning Rods: Gender, Race, Homosexuality and Other Sensitive Topics

[zannej]

Hmmm.. I guess because even though Iris knows how to use a gun, she may have the least combat experience out of the group (except for Jesse). Sure, she learned to fight from Joe and obviously learned to shoot, but knowing how to do those things and being in dangerous situations are not the same thing. Iris has proven that she can handle herself, but I can still understand why they would want her to stay with Jesse in the van.

That said, I wonder if Griffin would have responded differently to a woman than to a man. If Iris or Jesse had gone out there to try to talk to him, he might not have been so eager to start chucking large objects at them. Jesse perhaps could have appealed to him to spare her father because it would leave her an orphan. It might not have worked, but they could have tried that angle.

It would have been nice if the plan had been to try to talk to Griffin instead of getting him to fight. They could have offered to take him back to STAR Labs to see if they could figure out how to help him. Granted, they did offer and he said it was too late, but their main plan from the get-go was to make him age faster. If they had told him that using his powers is what made him age more, perhaps he might have backed off. He might not have, but they never bothered to try.

Too bad the first thing Barry did when he ran up to Griffin was to punch him instead of just trying to talk. I think in that case, Iris might have been better at negotiating.

At least they are showing Iris as caring about Barry again and vice versa. The whole front end of the season with the Patty storyline was really cringeworthy.

[phoenics]

Cisco has less training physically than Iris.  So does powerless-Barry.  And neither of them are as good with a gun as she is.  It was just sad to leave the women out of the action on this.

[sking24450]

36 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Cisco has less training physically than Iris.  So does powerless-Barry.  And neither of them are as good with a gun as she is.  It was just sad to leave the women out of the action on this.

Yeah that made no sense to have Cisco out there other than him having a penis.  It was offensive actually from their refusal to allow Jesse to come along and then to keep the two girls in the van when Iris in particular has shot people in this series which is more than I can say for Cisco or Barry tbh.

[zannej]

Do we know for sure that Cisco has had less training? In hand-to-hand maybe, but Cisco knows how to fire weapons and has been in dangerous situations before. He's also the only metahuman left in the group now. He potentially has the ability to use those powers for defense-- even if he doesn't know how to use them yet.

Barry was needed because he's the one who could pull off the Flash gig since he hast the suit. Joe is a cop with years of experience.

But I do see what you mean. By default, the women are the ones who get left in the van. Sort of like on another show where the genius male who was considered effeminate and weak would be left in the van or back at the station or just disappear while the rest of the team would go out.

Honestly, if ALL of them had gone out, it might have confused/overwhelmed Griffin. Or maybe he might have been less likely to try to throw things at a girl/woman. But they didn't even think about that.

It made me think of back in the 90s when I was doing a report on women in the military. Women were not allowed in combat situations and were only allowed to fly planes/jets with no weapons-- the fuel jets. The excuse was that men would get more upset if a female soldier died than if a male soldier died. Ironically, the fuel jets were the ones that were more likely to be targeted for attack because if the enemy took out the fuel supply, it could disable more jets.

The US military still does not treat women equally.

[Trini]

Author uses Iris as an example in this article: 'A Witness for Abbie: How Genre TV Systematically Lets Black Women Down'

[zannej]

So, Grant and Danielle got nominated for the Teen Choice awards. I can understand Grant's nomination, but I'm sad that Candice didn't get nominated. Not to try to put Danielle down, but Candice is simply a better actress and deserves to be on the list and I can't help but think the only reason she's not is because she isn't white.

[anarchyangel84]

I actually think Danielle is a better actress than Candace & for me, it has nothing to do with her not being white. There are probably a lot of ppl who would agree with you about Candace & agree with me about Danielle. But maybe it's because Danielle has a bigger role in the group. Like she lost Ronnie/Firestorm. Then this thing with Jay/Zoom. And her doppelgänger was a meta human. It's the Teen Choice Awards. But I really don't think it has anything to do with race.

[pookat]

We probably see things differently. I think Candice is a superior actress who has had pretty thin storylines, while Danielle has been given meatier storylines but hasn't carried them off as well, in my opinion. DP has a larger fanbase I think because of her history as a Disney tween star.

I used to believe that the world was more colorblind than it is. Maybe age, experience and learning others' diverse points of view has opened my mind a bit more to some of the inequalities around us. Not everything is about race (or gender or ethnicity or so on), but there is a lot to be said about implicit bias that affects the way we unconsciously make decisions about who is worthy, popular or beautiful. It takes A LOT to consciously refrain from acting on instinct, which is deeply seated in every one of us and is a result of societal conditioning. Acknowledging that we have this implicit bias doesn't make us racist or bad. It just means that there are many forces that shape our reality.

There is a lot of evidence, both hard and soft, and plenty of history that shows why DP would be favored for a popularity award over CP.  It's not a slam against DP or people who have grown up with privilege of any kind (even the unconscious kind). It's just a statement of the current reality. It's one of the reasons I cheer extra hard for the CP's of this world, knowing how much more they have to overcome to even be considered for lead roles like this one. If talent and hard work alone were the only ingredients for success and accolades, and implicit and systemic biases didn't exist, it would be a very different world.

Edited May 25, 2016 by pookat

[Actionmage]

I understand Barry having trouble dealing with Nora's death and Henry's is still raw for Barry. I get that. I understand where his headspace might be. Yet...

Barry talks about losing his mom. Iris did not lose hers as violently, but she did and Iris lost her twice.

Barry just lost his father, as Iris did this episode. Granted, she didn't know how short a time it was going to be, but Iris was unhappily willing to back up her words with appropriate inaction. The group's goal was to keep Zoom from using E1 to destroy the other Earths. They almost got that done.

I think that is why I respect Iris a bit more than Barry. She's willing to take the emotional hit to keep people safe, but Barry has stubbornly refused to see that, even after a four-part "chat" with the Speed Force itself.

Barry tends to walk into traps, knowing they are traps, but usually with no other plan after the trap is sprung. He is the most credulous forensics scientist on TV.  He cannot think outside of a binary when villains give him an ultimatum. ( Give in or run, usually.)  He brushes past others' pain and loss to tell folks that they can't understand how he's feeling. ( Like Iris tonight.) I grinned so hard when Caitlin brought up Ronnie, but of course, Barry minimized that in comparison to his pain and loss.

 

I realize it's the writing, but "The Writing" has pigeon-holed Barry into a very juvenile mindset for the sake of "action". Several clever folks on these boards have come up with reasonable ways to have Barry, Iris and the Flash Mob interact and still be credible, well-rounded characters. Yet we end up with Barry, for the second year, running back to his mother's murder, only this time stopping the act.

It is more infuriating, to me, this year than last because Barry has been through so much more since the end of S1 and has seen first hand how screwing around with the timeline is a big no-no, hence the Pah Wraiths. In fact, Barry- knowing how to game the timeline- counted on being able to outmaneuver Zoom using the taunts Zoom threw at him to bring about Zoom's demise. 

Yet, that did not hold in Barry's mind for longer than it took him to change clothes. He encountered the time wraiths once already and just used them to finish off Hunter Zolomon. So Barry decides that he can't be grown without either parent, so he goes back in time for the umpteenth time just this season! ( I do not care that TPTB said the timeline would be tampered with/ changed. It should not be. Not at the end of every season. It has lost the impact TPTB think it still holds.)

If Barry doesn't get some sort of consequence from this clearly selfish trip? I am out. This is not the kind of hero I can back.

[quarks]

So, now that the season finales of all of the Berlanti superhero shows have aired (spoiler tagging since I'm not sure if everyone on this thread is caught up with those finales.)

Supergirl:

Spoiler

Kara saves the world, with Cat Grant providing some technical assistance; Alex saves Kara.  

Legends of Tomorrow:

Spoiler

Sara gets the B-plot where she finds out and processes her sister's death. Sara and Kendra both actively help to take down Vandal Savage by disrupting the whatever with the meteorites; Kendra stabs Vandal, although someone else finishes him off. After a couple thousand years, Kendra mostly takes control over her own destiny in the last few minutes.

Arrow:
 

Spoiler

 

Thea: through admittedly slightly questionable methods, saves Felicity, Donna, Oliver and Curtis, and later helps defend the Arrow Cave because apparently its security systems are even worse than the ones at Star Labs, but I digress.

Lyla: commands an elite attack unit, which fails, and then fights in the city streets. 

Amanda Waller: rescues Oliver from those boring flashbacks (BEST MOMENT IN THE EPISODE), and commands an elite attack unit, which succeeds.

Felicity: hits a goon with a stick and works to stop a nuclear strike.

The news reporter: did her job, the only person outside of Team Arrow in the entire city to do so year after year. (She's great. Hasn't missed a season finale yet.)

Various Star City women extras got to join a mob, steal, and fight.

 

Flash:

Caitlin: got used as a bait for a man who previously dated her and then kidnapped her, and then gave an inspirational speech.

Iris: stood around repeating plot points, and gave an inspirational speech.

Jesse: stood around, and announced she was heading home, her version of an inspirational speech.

 

 

Do better, The Flash.

[zannej]

Well, technically Felicity did get to give an inspirational speech to an ex-boyfriend.

Jesse's speech to her dad seemed kindof off. Like, I think the sole purpose was to give fans hope that Harry was going to stay-- but it just seems odd to me that after so much time apart that she would encourage him to stay on Earth1. It almost seemed to me like she actually really does want to push him away so she can have more freedom. It was the writing more than the acting though. I thought the actress did a good job of selling it.

I just hope they do more with Iris and have her using her brains more and not being relegated to pep talker for the male characters.

[quarks]

7 hours ago, zannej said:

Well, technically Felicity did get to give an inspirational speech to an ex-boyfriend.

Fair enough, and she was the usual sounding board for a couple of Oliver's "My Life, Let Me Angst About It" speeches. But my main point was that she, Thea and Lyla all got to do other things as well - as did the women extras.  And this is on a show which in general has not exactly had the best track record with women characters. 

The bigger problem, to me, is that this wasn't just a single episode - it echoes what happened the entire season. Iris did something in one early episode that Barry had to rescue her from, went after Wally in a mid season episode, worked with Cisco during "The Runaway Dinosaur," and got to do stuff during the Earth-2 episodes, but otherwise, she spent pretty much the entire season as a sounding board/giver of inspirational speeches. Even the plot about her mother turned out to be more about Wally and Joe. With the exception of the King Shark episode and her moments as Killer Frost, Caitlin spent the season falling in love with Jay, doing medical stuff for Jay, getting kidnapped by Zoom, and getting used as bait by Zoom. With the exception of the one episode where she stood in for Caitlin's medical stuff, Jesse spent most of the season arguing with her father about wanting to be able to do stuff, or kidnapped by Zoom. Patty managed to get kidnapped in three out of the eleven episodes that she appeared in. Linda Park was used as bait for a guy, although she did a bit better as Dr. Light. Trajectory was killed off in her one episode appearance.

The only exceptions to this were Tina McGee, who barely appeared this season; Lisa Snart, same; Kendra, who spent her time on Flash mostly serving coffee and needing protection from Vandal Savage; Samantha, who accidentally introduced Oliver to his secret son (most of that plot was on the Arrow episodes) and Lyla, Felicity, Thea and Black Siren, essentially Arrow characters who each made only one appearance this season.

Even with Iris left out of the loop, season one did better than this. The other Berlanti shows are all doing better than this. That's why it's so frustrating for me as a viewer to watch.

[Grace19]

On Wednesday, May 25, 2016 at 3:05 AM, anarchyangel84 said:

I actually think Danielle is a better actress than Candace & for me, it has nothing to do with her not being white. There are probably a lot of ppl who would agree with you about Candace & agree with me about Danielle. But maybe it's because Danielle has a bigger role in the group. Like she lost Ronnie/Firestorm. Then this thing with Jay/Zoom. And her doppelgänger was a meta human. It's the Teen Choice Awards. But I really don't think it has anything to do with race.

In what world is Danielle a better actress than Candice? maybe on Earth10. Her doppleganger was bad and cheesy. She handles every scene the same way, she waving her arms, bends her neck and dose weird things with her eyes. I ignored it before, but this last episode was something else.
 

[zannej]

On 5/28/2016 at 7:31 AM, quarks said:

Fair enough, and she was the usual sounding board for a couple of Oliver's "My Life, Let Me Angst About It" speeches. But my main point was that she, Thea and Lyla all got to do other things as well - as did the women extras.  And this is on a show which in general has not exactly had the best track record with women characters. 

The bigger problem, to me, is that this wasn't just a single episode - it echoes what happened the entire season. Iris did something in one early episode that Barry had to rescue her from, went after Wally in a mid season episode, worked with Cisco during "The Runaway Dinosaur," and got to do stuff during the Earth-2 episodes, but otherwise, she spent pretty much the entire season as a sounding board/giver of inspirational speeches. Even the plot about her mother turned out to be more about Wally and Joe. With the exception of the King Shark episode and her moments as Killer Frost, Caitlin spent the season falling in love with Jay, doing medical stuff for Jay, getting kidnapped by Zoom, and getting used as bait by Zoom. With the exception of the one episode where she stood in for Caitlin's medical stuff, Jesse spent most of the season arguing with her father about wanting to be able to do stuff, or kidnapped by Zoom. Patty managed to get kidnapped in three out of the eleven episodes that she appeared in. Linda Park was used as bait for a guy, although she did a bit better as Dr. Light. Trajectory was killed off in her one episode appearance.

The only exceptions to this were Tina McGee, who barely appeared this season; Lisa Snart, same; Kendra, who spent her time on Flash mostly serving coffee and needing protection from Vandal Savage; Samantha, who accidentally introduced Oliver to his secret son (most of that plot was on the Arrow episodes) and Lyla, Felicity, Thea and Black Siren, essentially Arrow characters who each made only one appearance this season.

Even with Iris left out of the loop, season one did better than this. The other Berlanti shows are all doing better than this. That's why it's so frustrating for me as a viewer to watch.

Tina McGee had to be rescued in two of her three appearances. First from Reverse Flash and then from the collapsing building. At least some of the male characters were damseled as well, but pretty much every single female character was either damseled or died.

On 5/28/2016 at 3:38 PM, Grace19 said:

In what world is Danielle a better actress than Candice? maybe on Earth10. Her doppleganger was bad and cheesy. She handles every scene the same way, she waving her arms, bends her neck and dose weird things with her eyes. I ignored it before, but this last episode was something else.
 

I think it comes down to different preferences and opinions of what constitutes good acting. It is a matter of opinion rather than some concrete standard. That said, I prefer Candice's performance over Danielle's. I really want to like Danielle, but I just can't force myself to enjoy her acting choices when they are just so bad, IMO.

Teen Choice awards has zero reflection on actual talent.

[Trini]

To be fair; every character has been 'damselled' at least once -- even Barry. It's a Flash constant.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Trini

[zannej]

On 5/31/2016 at 5:22 PM, Trini said:

To be fair; every character has been 'damselled' at least once -- even Barry. It's a Flash constant.

Hmm.. I don't remember Eobard (as Dr. Wells) being damselled. The closest it came to that was when Blackout was going after him or when Hartley terrorized him. But then, he was a villain so he got different treatment. That said, I really think it actually would have been interesting to see what would have happened if someone had made the mistake of taking him hostage. I imagine it being akin to Barry's reaction to the attempted mugging.

If I weren't so lazy, I'd come up with a list of the number of times the various characters were 'damselled'....

[bettername2come]

Quote

If I weren't so lazy, I'd come up with a list of the number of times the various characters were 'damselled'....

I feel as though a challenge has been issued:

Wally West: Kidnapped by Zoom 2x18

Joe West: Kidnapped by Zoom 2x23, Hostage by Clock King 1x07, Kidnapped by Mark Mardon 1x15, Kidnapped by Grodd 1x21

Iris West: Kidnapped by Tony 1x06, Hostage by Clock King 1x07 (saves herself though), 

Cisco Ramon: Kidnapped by Cold and Heatwave 1x16 (tells identity gets himself out)

Caitlin Snow: Kidnapped by Cold and Heatwave 1x10, Kidnapped by Grodd 2x07, Kidnapped by Zoom 2x18-2x21

Martin Stein: Kidnapped by Eiling 1x14

Henry Allen: Kidnapped by Trickster 1x17

Patty Spivot: Kidnapped by Sand Demon 2x02, Kidnapped by Turtle 2x10

Eddie Thawne: Kidnapped by Reverse-Flash 2x20-2x22

Linda Park: Kidnapped by Zoom 2x06

ETA: Forgot a few

Harrison Wells: Kidnapped by Griffin Grey 2x19

Jesse Wells: Kidnapped by Zoom 2x05-2x14

Barry Allen: Kidnapped by Everyman 1x19, Kidnapped by Zoom 2x13-2x14

Edited June 20, 2016 by bettername2come

[Trini]

4 hours ago, bettername2come said:

Barry Allen: Kidnapped by Everyman 1x19, Kidnapped by Zoom 2x13-2x14

Also, kidnapped by Barry Allen in 2x17.

Tina McGee: Held hostage by Reverse Flash in 2x11

[zannej]

On 6/20/2016 at 5:41 PM, Trini said:

Also, kidnapped by Barry Allen in 2x17.

Tina McGee: Held hostage by Reverse Flash in 2x11

Since Tina was taken to a secondary location, I'd say she was kidnapped.

Thanks, bettername2come!!

Does Eddie count as being a hostage since he was shot and on the floor by the Clock King?

Henry Allen was also kidnapped by Zoom (but he didn't survive). And Jesse was sort of held hostage by Trajectory while Barry was locked in the pipeline.

I wonder if Eobard would consider himself damseled because he was locked in the pipeline a couple times. :P Probably not.

[bettername2come]

I didn't count the times when people actually got killed - that's not damseled, that's fridged. That's a different list.

Hmm, I didn't count Eddie just cause he was sneaking around trying to be a hero when the actual "I'm taking everyone hostage!" went down. 

11 hours ago, zannej said:

I wonder if Eobard would consider himself damseled because he was locked in the pipeline a couple times. :P Probably not.

Nor would Barry consider himself damseled the time time his family locked him in the pipeline.

[Trini]

Not going to link every mention, but with the recent news about Zendaya supposedly playing Mary-Jane Watson in the next Spiderman movie, Candice Patton's name has come up a lot when people are talking about "racebent" comic book characters. Candice's casting probably did pave the way for Kiersey Clemons to play movie! Iris; but I feel people are forgetting Pete Ross was also played by a black actor (Sam Jones III) in Smallville, and Billy Dee Williams was Harvey Dent in Batman.

[SevenStars]

11 hours ago, Trini said:

Not going to link every mention, but with the recent news about Zendaya supposedly playing Mary-Jane Watson in the next Spiderman movie, Candice Patton's name has come up a lot when people are talking about "racebent" comic book characters. Candice's casting probably did pave the way for Kiersey Clemons to play movie! Iris; but I feel people are forgetting Pete Ross was also played by a black actor (Sam Jones III) in Smallville, and Billy Dee Williams was Harvey Dent in Batman.

I think the reason they mentioned Candice role in this situation and not the guys you mention is because Hollywood usually go out of their way not make the black girl/women the love interest of a lead white guy. So it's not so much about race bent but the significance of having a black girl/black women be someone that is love.

That’s why it was such a big thing over at TWD when the writers decided to put Rick and Michonne together. A lot of people wanted this relationship to happen,  there were notable scenes/storyline that makes it clear that it should. The lead actor, Andrew Lincoln, even stated that AMC/the writers would need to have political balls to make this happen. Cause he knew that no matter how perfect Michonne and Rick might be for each other, it might never happen cause of Michonne's race. So because of that most people didn't believe it would every happend because historically black girls/women don't get to be  real love interest for white leads. They are usually who the writers use to show how great the guy is before they hand him over to a white girl.

So that's why people are making such a big deal about Candice and Zendaya role in these situations.

[zannej]

I'm wondering-- I know in the US I'm still embarrassed to see that interracial couples are still getting some bigots in an uproar-- but, what is it like in other countries? I watch some British programs and I've noticed that there seem to be more interracial couples without much hullabaloo. The sci fi show Merlin cast a black woman as Gweneviere (which I secretly found amusing because the name means "white") and she eventually married Arthur (shortly before the producers decided to give a big 'fuck you' to the fans with how they ended the show). I've noticed on the British programs that they had interracial couples in period pieces set in times where interracial marriage was still illegal in the US (it was legalized in 1967).

I saw this link (but haven't been able to watch it yet) about interracial couples in Britain.

So, is Britain just more advanced than other countries?

Does anyone else remember back when Tatyana Ali was dating Jonathan Brandis and she said black men walked up to her and told her she was denigrating herself by dating a white man? This topic made me think of that.

I wonder which is considered the more taboo pairing: White men with black women or black men with white women. I'm sort of guessing the latter in the US, but never have looked at the statistics.

One thing I did notice some people commenting on is that the black women are often rather light-skinned. So, Hollywood still hasn't fully embraced darker skinned women as beautiful-- although I do love that Viola Davis is getting good roles. The Olympics are seeming slightly less racist now. I remember when poor Dominique Dawes was giving amazing performances and they were giving her (and other black athletes) lower scores for no apparent reason but giving higher scores to white / lighter skinned girls who made mistakes or didn't have as impressive routines (Seriously, Dominique Moceanu fell on her head and got a higher score than Dawes who had a flawless performance).

Getting back to the Flash discussion, I'm very glad they picked Candice to play Iris. She is so much better than the chick they had as Iris in the 90s Flash series (although, the acting on that program was pretty awful). The writing for Iris is so poor, that she could have been unlikable, but Candice makes her likeable.

Edited August 23, 2016 by zannej

[ruby24]

I'm not sure which pairing is more taboo, but as far as statistics go, I know that the most common interracial pairing in the U.S. is white men and asian women, followed by black men and white women. And I believe the least common pairing is white men and black women. Also uncommon is asian men and white women, so interestingly, it's a total reversal there.

I don't think it necessarily means it's more taboo. I also don't know if that's more a result of choice or circumstance.

Edited August 21, 2016 by ruby24

[scarynikki12]

18 hours ago, zannej said:

I remember when poor Dominique Dawes was giving amazing performances and they were giving her (and other black athletes) lower scores for no apparent reason but giving higher scores to white / lighter skinned girls who made mistakes or didn't have as impressive routines (Seriously, Dominique Moceanu fell on her head and got a higher score than Dawes who had a flawless performance).

I disagree with this.  Moceanu fell on her head in beam finals, which Dawes didn't qualify for.  I'll agree that Dawes was often underscored on the national level opposite the other gymnasts but internationally and in Atlanta her scores were actually appropriate.  The only real reasons she didn't win as many World medals as Shannon Miller was both due to her compulsories (she wasn't as consistent so she didn't qualify ) and her unfortunate tendency to choke under pressure (her fall on vault in the 93 Worlds is one of the most heartbreaking moments in gymnastics).  In Atlanta her compulsory scores were solid, her team final scores were outstanding (especially bars and floor) and her low All-Around scores were on floor (she once again succumbed to pressure and fell) and vault (she was still upset from her floor fall).  Moceanu was expected to qualify for the All-Around and some event finals but so was Dawes.  The question that rose during the team final was if Moceanu would be able to hold off the strong show from Kerri Strug (she didn't and made it to the AA as an alternate due to Strug's famous ankle injury).  There was never a question about Dawes qualifying.  Moceanu did outscore Dawes a few times during those Games but they were as follows: beam (more stable compulsories and stuck landing in team final vs step forward), floor (compulsories and Dawes fell in the AA), and vault (AA final and was only a few tenths above Dawes who was still upset about her floor fall).  Otherwise, Dawes outscored Moceanu every time and even beat her for bronze in the floor final.  Now, the American media ignored Dawes in favor of Moceanu, which speaks to the ingrained prejudice that we saw plenty of times then and now with the Rio games but I'll always argue that Dawes was judged fairly internationally and at those games. 

Going back to Flash, I would say (from what I've seen and been told) that it's more acceptable for a black man to be with a white woman than vice versa.  Not by much, mind you, but still.  And Flash is an example of this with the vitriol that has been expressed since Candice was cast.  It's died down and I will acknowledge that the reactions to the Iris and MJ castings for their respective movies isn't as bad as I was expecting but there's still plenty of time before those movies are released. 

[SevenStars]

On 8/21/2016 at 3:16 AM, ruby24 said:

I'm not sure which pairing is more taboo, but as far as statistics go, I know that the most common interracial pairing in the U.S. is white men and asian women, followed by black men and white women. And I believe the least common pairing is white men and black women. Also uncommon is asian men and white women, so interestingly, it's a total reversal there.

I don't think it necessarily means it's more taboo. I also don't know if that's more a result of choice or circumstance.

I think black women and white men is more taboo because society have created a narrative in which black women are the worst women out of all women. A narrative that even a lot of black men have brought into. So being with black women is considered a down-grade for white men because they could have a white women, which is the women prototype that socity claim is the best kind.

While for black men it is considered an upgrade to be with a white women.

[zannej]

There really seems to be a push to have white women as the "ideal" in terms of beauty. I've noticed that black women are encouraged to lighten their skin and straighten their hair. Some workplaces and schools even ban "ethnic" hairstyles.

I read an article that talked about how black girls are treated the worst in schools & that they get in trouble for things that boys and white girls don't get in trouble for.

My mother likes to watch Judge Judy and anytime there is a black woman with dark skin who doesn't talk like an Oreo, Judy is always extremely condescending and downright rude. Like, she kept accusing some woman of "having an attitude" when the woman was just frustrated because her landlord screwed her over. And I know a lot of people make snap judgments like that. It is one of my pet peeves.

I'm glad that they picked Candice for the show since she is a very talented actress, but I do hope in the future that they won't be afraid to hire actresses with darker skin for lead roles.

Btw, a friend of mine who is a huge fan of Disney and lives in LA said that Disney is now really pushing to hire Latinos. Is the CW in any way affiliated with Disney?

[BaggythePanther]

4 hours ago, zannej said:

Is the CW in any way affiliated with Disney?

No, pretty much the opposite. The CW is co-owned by CBS and WB. WB is the studio that produces shows/movies featuring DC characters. Disney produces the shows movies featuring Marvel characters.

 

Quote

Btw, a friend of mine who is a huge fan of Disney and lives in LA said that Disney is now really pushing to hire Latinos.

Latinos are the fastest growing minority group in the US. A lot of companies are looking for ways to tap into the growing market.

[zannej]

OK. IIRC, WB used to own both DC and Marvel and I think they either bought AOL or AOL bought WB or something like that-- but I remember that there were a lot of horrible creative decisions after the merger happened. I just don't remember all of the details because I think it was over 15 years ago.

But I'm guessing the Marvel movie franchise is separate from the Marvel comic books.

And I just have to vent... On another forum a new member asked if people could please refrain from using the term "blacks" as he found it offensive. A moderator jumped on him and said she didn't have to do politically incorrect bs. The guy then said that he was black, found the term offensive as it made the people using it sound racist (and that the term had negative connotations). He specified that "black people", "POC", or other terms were fine. Another admin (who speaks English as a second language) apologized to him and said that she wasn't aware that it was considered rude. He accepted the apology and acknowledged that it wasn't intentional. But the first admin flipped her shit and banned him. People called her out on it and she unbanned him, but he hasn't been back. I can't say that I blame him. But seriously, it is one thing if someone says "I don't like it when you use that term to refer to other people, you have to stop" vs "I find that term offensive to my race/gender/culture/etc, please stop using it." /facepalm

Anyways, in some ways I'm glad they don't make a big deal on screen about race on The Flash because it is a nice little fantasy world where I can escape and not have to be reminded of that ugliness. The show glosses over a lot of things in terms of some of the crimes. I'm sure Joe has seen some pretty horrific stuff, but since the show is more kid friendly, they won't mention it.

[quarks]

3 hours ago, zannej said:

OK. IIRC, WB used to own both DC and Marvel and I think they either bought AOL or AOL bought WB or something like that-- but I remember that there were a lot of horrible creative decisions after the merger happened. I just don't remember all of the details because I think it was over 15 years ago.

But I'm guessing the Marvel movie franchise is separate from the Marvel comic books.

 

This is slightly off topic for this thread, but for clarification: WB has never owned Marvel.  

Marvel started out back in the late 1930s as Timely, called itself Atlas for awhile, and then became Marvel in the 1960s. In 2009, Disney bought Marvel.

The movie franchise is somewhat separate from the comic books, but still under the overall umbrella of Marvel Entertainment Group, which is a subsidiary of Walt Disney. Quite a lot of the contracts signed by Marvel prior to 2009 are still in force, which is why the film rights to some properties, like the X-Men, are still licensed to Fox. 

DC Comics was also founded back in the 1930s. They acquired Superman and Batman and became tremendously successful. In the 1940s, they merged with another company to become National Comics. In the late 1960s, National/DC was purchased by another company, which bought Warner Bros/Seven Arts - basically, a company that had bought up the old Warner Brothers studio. At that point, the new owners merged National, DC and Warner Bros into Warner Communications. 

In 1989, Warner Communications merged with Time (the magazine company), becoming Time Warner. This led to a lot of restructuring.  In the mid 1990s, Time Warner bought Turner Communications, which is why they now own TBS/TNT.  In 2000, AOL purchased Time Warner. I think this is the deal you are talking about - it was controversial for a number of reasons unrelated to comic books, and it flopped, badly.  From a purely creative perspective, a number of approved/acquired projects were suddenly cancelled. I won't say that every decision was awful, but....in my own, very biased opinion, many were. In 2009, AOL Time Warner finally spun off AOL and became just Time Warner again.

DC is still under the WB part of the Time Warner umbrella, and various DC-related projects pop up on Cartoon Network, another - separate from WB - subsidiary of Time Warner. Cartoon Network mostly showcases WB TV and Cartoon Network studio projects, but occasionally they pick up cartoons from other studios. Including - for a brief period - Disney, when they picked up Clone Wars from the Lucasfilm division, not Marvel.

[paulvdb]

Small addition to that final sentence of your post: Clone Wars was on Cartoon Network before Disney took over Lucasfilm. Although the final season of Clone Wars may have aired after the Disney takeover.

[HeroWorld]

Quote

One thing I did notice some people commenting on is that the black women are often rather light-skinned. So, Hollywood still hasn't fully embraced darker skinned women as beautiful-- although I do love that Viola Davis is getting good roles.

Its not just dark skin they haven't embraced, its all African features they have a disgust for (same for Asian features).  They are shutting out black women who are not mixed or dont look obviously so. They go for actors/actresses who are overtly mixed. have light skin, light eyes, other  European features. Just  goes to show HW hasnt embraced non white people, they just use lighter people because they are "forced" to be diverse. Its the bare minimum they can do. 

On another I consider Candice is be darker skinned than most actresses CW cast for black women roles. I considered it progress.

[phoenics]

6 hours ago, WildCardD said:

Its not just dark skin they haven't embraced, its all African features they have a disgust for (same for Asian features).  They are shutting out black women who are not mixed or dont look obviously so. They go for actors/actresses who are overtly mixed. have light skin, light eyes, other  European features. Just  goes to show HW hasnt embraced non white people, they just use lighter people because they are "forced" to be diverse. Its the bare minimum they can do. 

On another I consider Candice is be darker skinned than most actresses CW cast for black women roles. I considered it progress.

Agreed - but Candice in real life is actually much lighter than she appeared for most of the Flash.  I don't know what was up with her makeup but she always looked 2-3 shades darker on the show than on her own instagram or at public appearances - unless it was the end of summer.  Empire's Taraji had the same issue when she began Empire - I honestly think it's the makeup artists looking for the right makeup - sometimes I think it oxidizes or darkens or something onscreen.  Because since black women haven't been featured as much in television, makeup artists are still figuring it all out and still working to get their true complexions to show through onscreen.  I remember Kevin Costner mentioning something about that in reference to Whitney Houston.

Think about that for a minute.  There's been such a dearth of black women on tv in lead roles (where makeup would be more noticed) that the makeup artistry hasn't caught up yet.  It has barely scratched the surface - hence TPH looking 2 shades darker when Empire first began to finally looking more like herself in the final 3 episodes of the 2nd season.  I noticed the difference so much that I was scrambling to find the makeup she used (she's my same skintone, although I have more yellow like Candice).

[SevenStars]

9 hours ago, phoenics said:

Agreed - but Candice in real life is actually much lighter than she appeared for most of the Flash.  I don't know what was up with her makeup but she always looked 2-3 shades darker on the show than on her own instagram or at public appearances - unless it was the end of summer.  Empire's Taraji had the same issue when she began Empire - I honestly think it's the makeup artists looking for the right makeup - sometimes I think it oxidizes or darkens or something onscreen.  Because since black women haven't been featured as much in television, makeup artists are still figuring it all out and still working to get their true complexions to show through onscreen.  I remember Kevin Costner mentioning something about that in reference to Whitney Houston.

Think about that for a minute.  There's been such a dearth of black women on tv in lead roles (where makeup would be more noticed) that the makeup artistry hasn't caught up yet.  It has barely scratched the surface - hence TPH looking 2 shades darker when Empire first began to finally looking more like herself in the final 3 episodes of the 2nd season.  I noticed the difference so much that I was scrambling to find the makeup she used (she's my same skintone, although I have more yellow like Candice).

It's not only make-up but also lighting. Most behind the scenes people don't know how to properly light a dark-skin black person. I'm guessing because it isn't taught to them, just like not knowing how to do black women hair is taught in hairstyle schools. It's really sad when you think of all these things and realize that the progess we think has been made is mostly on the surface. It's one of the reasons I don't really like talking about these things cause when I really sit down and think about these things, it makes me sad. 

[calliope1975]

5 minutes ago, SevenStars said:

It's not only make-up but also lighting. Most behind the scenes people don't know how to properly light a dark-skin black person. I'm guessing because it isn't taught to them, just like not knowing how to do black women hair is taught in hairstyle schools. It's really sad when you think of all these things and realize that the progess we think has been made is mostly on the surface. It's one of the reasons I don't really like talking about these things cause when I really sit down and think about these things, it makes me sad. 

While he mostly focuses on Asian Americans, John Cho addressed this in a recent interview. It is damn depressing that TPTB can't get something like lighting right. I see it in print, too. A lot of time POCs are in black and white instead of color.

John Cho Vulture Interview

How have you seen that manifested in media?
I've seen many instances where we’re seen as a little less than human, or maybe a little more than human — like ultrahuman, rather than subhuman. What is wrong with film representation? Some of it is mechanical, surprisingly. I've thought about why Asian stars — from Asia, I mean — look so much better in their Asian films than they do in their American films, and now I can answer that to some extent. There's an eye, and it's not a malicious eye, which is a way that the people working the camera and behind the scenes view us. And then they process it and they put it on film. And it's not quite human. Whereas Asian films, they are considered fully human. Fully heroic, fully comic, fully lovely, fully sad, whatever it is. And it's this combination of lighting, makeup, and costume.

If you don't think of a person as fully human, you sort of stop short and go, That’s good enough. Do you remember Doug Liman’s film Go? I remember Taye Diggs in that movie, and he was charcoal black. I was surprised to see him in How Stella Got Her Groove Back — I realized that Go was not an accurate representation of his skin tone whatsoever. And I've met him. He was carelessly lit. Why is that? Why is one carelessly lit? The white people were carefully lit.

Technology is often built around white skin tones. There was a funny Better Off Ted episode where the motion-sensor technology couldn't recognize dark skin, so the black characters were literally invisible. They were parodying the HP face-recognition technology that also couldn’t recognize black people.
That's telling. I did this show called Flashforward. My fiancé on the show [Gabrielle Union] and I are both different colors, but I look at the pictures from that and go, Oh, well done! We're both visible. We look like real people. But there was no one white in that scene to calibrate the camera or the lights to.

[phoenics]

Ugh - I'm depressed.  This kind of thing seems simple - but I have a friend looking for a wedding photographer right now and she has to actively ask if they've ever captured weddings of people of color - because she wants to look like herself in her photos.

It's just so vexing to see CP or Taraji in real photos look so much better than they do onscreen - even on Empire - a show with an all black cast, it took them 1.5 YEARS to get her makeup and lighting right.  That's - insane.

The Flash feels like it's finally getting better with that and more accurately portraying CP's skintone, but in some scenes it's still off.  I think John Cho hit on it when he said that when she's lit in a scene by herself, she looks like she does in print, instagram, twitter, etc.. but when she shares screentime with white actors, her coloring is off.

Vexing.

[zannej]

At least there have been *some* improvements. I remember when the local newspaper used to have photos. Now, the paper had poor printing quality to begin with, but I was always sad that I could never actually see the faces of a single black person-- even in pictures that didn't have any white people. They would basically be these dark blobs and it always bugged me that they couldn't be bothered to at least try to get it to print better. That was when they didn't print in color.

Speaking of the lighting and color and such-- I watch a show called Criminal Minds and a few seasons back they got a brand new HD camera and the makeup artists and color correction people apparently did NOT know how to deal with the new tech. Joe Mantegna looked orange, some people's lips practically looked neon, and you could see the makeup smudges on Thomas Gibson's face (like they used brown for shadowing and it showed up in streaks). It was several episodes in before they finally figured out how to fix the color. But the fact that they *still* haven't figured out how to do makeup and lighting for people with darker skin is just sad.

I wonder how long it will be before we start seeing them regularly cast actors with very dark skin. I've seen some people with skin so dark it was almost blue. I actually think it is a beautiful skintone, so I'm sad to very rarely see it on TV and magazines.

[phoenics]

Did you guys see this exchange on twitter (from CP's twitter about Ava DuVernay)?  It's exactly what we've been talking about... 

[zannej]

I saw that and found it very interesting. I know someone who works at a college and her students produce small television programs for local stations and such. She talked about it's not just the brightness of the light, but the color of the gels in the light. Although she said they once had a little program with a very pale white woman and very dark-skinned black woman and they had to make them sit farther apart and call in a professional lighting crew because the students couldn't figure out how to do it.

I still remember the first time that I even became aware of the lighting issue was while watching the pilot for a show that had Christopher Lloyd. I have no idea what it was called. I remember being surprised at first, but it does make sense.

I wonder what they do when they do outside shots using natural lighting.

I also wonder how much time film schools spend teaching the students about the lighting and if they even teach them how to light for different skintones.

[Trini]

Okay, show. With Jesse here now, there's 50% more women in the cast -- LET THEM TALK TO EACH OTHER.

[phoenics]

Agree - Iris has definitely lost her edge.  She used to be a lot more spunky and now she's definitely been softened.  In some ways it's nice to see a truly "nice black girl" on tv, because it used to be that all we saw were sapphires, mammies and sassy black women, but in other ways it's disheartening because we know the writers felt they had to soften her in order to fend off the racists.

[Katsullivan]

19 hours ago, doram said:

Quote

People think racism is just n-word this and n-word that, but usually it comes in the form of simply never giving black characters the full range of their emotions without stigmatization. And also never giving them the benefit of the doubt either - once they "make a misstep", that's it. No quarter, no forgiveness.

Quote

(Iris is flogged for things that Patty and Caitlin are cheered for, or given a pass on; and worse, it becomes forever attached to Iris, whilst no one really continually uses Patty and Caitlin's mistakes to characterize them really - not to the level Iris is frequently characterized for her missteps).

 

This is so important, I think. It's 2017 and people still talk about how Iris was a damsel in distress in season 1 (bitch where?) but no one remembers that Caitlin Snow, Wells's personal physician did not notice that her patient was not really paralysed from waist down. 

Can you imagine how social media would have exploded if Iris had been the one to pull that train stunt that Patty did? You don't have to --- Lana Lang does the exact same thing in Smallville to find out Clark's secret, and it's just one more hateful, despicable thing against her character. (Funny enough, Chloe who had been trying underhanded methods for seasons to find same secret never once got called out for her actions).

And it's not just fan talk. It seeps into the writing. Iris needed a whole season to mourn Eddie, but no one blinks an eye at Caitlin moving on from her dead husband the moment Jay showed up. Wally West is eviscerated by Barry for keeping Savitar's mental attacks to himself --- but Caitlin deliberately hiding a piece of the Philosopher's rock is never once critiqued? (Being called out by her LI for angst reasons does not count).

 

 

29 minutes ago, doram said:

I think she was a nice black girl even when she had an edge.

 

^This. Iris in season 2 and following was written to be so inoffensive that she basically disappears from her own stories. Joe discusses which of his sons to give his watch to his daughter, literally sitting right there! He talks to Wally about joining the police force, after emotionally blackmailing Iris to drop off ---- once again, in front of his daughter who is sitting right there! And I won't go into all the emotional labour that we're constantly told that Iris did for Barry when they were children --- she, not Joe, is the only person who's ever believed in his story about his mother's murder. Joe grew to love Barry as one of his own, and he always did right by the boy, but it was 10-year-old Iris West that made Barry know that he was not crazy! And the show completely ignores that. And we're constantly told that they're best friends, but it's entirely one-sided. At least in season 1, we had Barry do lip-service about explaining sciency stuff for articles to her, and he helped her with Mason when her mentor was giving her a hard time. But all the while, he was gas-lighting her about her blog, running her down for putting herself in danger - doing exactly the same thing that he had resented Joe for trying to do with him! He breaks up with her because they don't agree over the Streak. In season 2, Iris is mourning Eddie all by herself while giving Barry all the emotional support, including getting Henry for him when he's paralysed. She's always the one supporting him, and giving him pep talks over Zoom and Patty but Iris gains and loses her mother and fiance in a year and who supports her? Who gives her pep talks?

 

Even in season 3 in a storyline that should be all about her, she still takes the backseat. Her death is about Barry, Joe and everyone else except her. We got one lousy episode where she spoke about wanting to leave her mark in the world, and Barry "reassures" her that she's worthwhile because of all the emotional importance she has for him! WTF? Homegirl should have slapped him across the face.

I won't even go into the nonsense that was Barry dumping her, leaving her unprotected and alone in his loft, and then using a fricking musical to figure out that he wanted to run home to her. That was an insult to black girls everywhere. 

Iris has to break in the middle of strategising for her protection, to point out that Caitlin needs saving too. Of course, Caitlin never returns the favour. Later, she needs to be begged to save Iris, and then she threatens to use her powers to kill her. She keeps a piece of the stone even though she was told at the time, that destroying the entire stone was necessary to protect Iris. 

Imagine if these two women were swapped - Iris and Caitlin - in these situations and how differently the fans and the writing would have treated them.

Forget "nice black girl". Iris is written more like a "strong black woman."

29 minutes ago, doram said:

I would have preferred if the Iris/Barry/Linda had gone in a different direction (bring in Linda in as Iris's friend first, have Iris be rightfully upset that Barry who just said a month ago that he's in love with her is trying to seriously date her friend and co-worker, give Iris a PoV for cripe's sake)...

Thank you. Iris was berated for this when Barry was really the ass in this situation. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, doram said:

(And the more I think about that arc, the more it bugs me how badly Barry treated her, and how nothing and no one reacts to this. The whole story is framed entirely from Barry's pov, and we're made to feel sorry for him for him dumping her !)

I disagree with this completely. First, it was Iris who dumped Barry because he proposed for the "wrong reasons." As if being scared meant he didn't love her as well. And when after talking to Joe, she realized she was being unfair, Barry was put in a place (due to PLOT! reasons), he just agreed with her and told her that she was right after all, and that they should take some time apart. He didn't dump her. And at the risk of being beaned, this is The Flash, so of course, most of the POV, will be from Barry. Should we see more of how this affects Iris? Of course. But again, [putting on flak jacket and helmet], This isn't Barry and Iris, but The Flash.

But I do agree that Iris had more spunk and more to do, and more of a backbone in the first season, than the last two. She got away from Clock King too, when held hostage. At this point, I'm just going to blame the stupid fucktardist writers, because they continue to write this crap.

And I've never been on board with Linda and Barry, because EWWWWW! Linda Park in the comics is Wally's girlfriend/wife (?)(Not sure about the wife). Seeing him date Linda and almost sleep with her was just gross for me.

[Katsullivan]

1 hour ago, doram said:

I still feel that the writing did her no favours when with a little tweaking, it could have at least, given her a better PoV than just "you don't want Barry but you don't want anyone else to have him" nonsense. Linda should have been introduced as Iris's friend first (shocker, I know, since this show can't even give pass the Bechdel test for Iris and Caitlin in 3 seasons). Iris should have called Barry out for trying to date her a month after he declared his own undying love for her. Because that was messy and wrong. (And that was also the truth since Barry does end up dumping Linda literally the same day (due to time travel) he finds out that Iris returned his feelings). From a story-telling point of view, there was a lot of tension, new territory to be explored between Barry/Iris after the Christmas confession that just ends up being squandered by bad writing, the inability to give Iris a POV, and what (really seems to me) like putting her in the hands of writers who disliked her character. 

Well, you said it. The story can't pass the Bechdel test to save its life. The 3 times Iris and Caitlin have talked to each other in 3 seasons, they were both talking about their respective men --- Ronnie, Barry & Jay. 

I agree that the post-confession tension was wasted. When Barry hugged Iris during Christmas, there was a sense that this would be their last, platonic hug as friends because he was about to cross a line that they couldn't cross back. But in 2 episodes, they are hugging when Iris got her job from CCPN when that was a prime example to show sexual tension between the two. Have them both instinctively reach for a hug, then stop and be awkward about it. Have them navigate awkwardly around each other in front of Eddie and Joe, and Eddie notice and call Iris out on it.

Instead of the horrid nonsense we got with Iris/Barry/Linda, create a story where neither is completely right or wrong. I disagree that Barry needs a waiting period to get over Iris. But Iris was also, or would also, be right to be uncomfortable with Barry dating someone she works with and is friends with, especially if Linda gives her the impression that she might be more invested in the relationship than Barry. 

 

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Barry was put in a place (due to PLOT! reasons)

I think that's your answer right there. Everything about that arc was driven by Plot and not consistent characterisation and it showed. Barry's actions make no more sense than Iris's. It didn't make sense that Barry who is supposed to be savouring every moment of time he has with Iris, the love of his life who has a pending death sentence of months into the future, would want any degree of space from her. It didn't make sense that Iris would be so upset that he wanted to save her life that she would treat him as coldly as she did.

 

However that's not really the discussion here. What's being discussed here is the optics of this story. Iris, a Black woman, had misgivings about her relationship with Barry, a White man. She takes off his ring, but makes it clear that she still wants to be in a relationship with him, and is ready to marry him, for the right reasons. In response, Barry tells her he's moving out of their flat, and in the next episode it's made very clear that they broke up. To all intents and purposes, Barry dumped Iris because she dared to make demands on him. He then decides that he wants her back, and she accepts him without a single word of criticism or challenge because she has, effectively, learnt her lesson. (The lesson being: don't you dare demand more from the (White) man in your life because he has all the power in your relationship).

Not a comics book fan so I can't comment on the Linda/Wally aspect of this. Is the show even going there, or are they not making Wally/Jesse endgame? 

I've heard people complain that they gave TV!Barry Allen the personality of the Comic-book!Wally West, so him dating Linda might be a fall-out of that.

Which reminds me again of how Wally West is another criminally mistreated character on this show. 

[phoenics]

My main issue with the way Barry broke up with Iris before running home to her was that he left her alone in that place - where Savitar could have come for her at any moment and just killed her.  I can't even imagine how scared Iris must have been - and worse - that Barry essentially turned her into exactly what she didn't want to be:  just an obligation to save and not the woman he wanted to be with.

I know Barry deep down wanted to be with Iris but by leaving her alone like that and breaking things off - she at that moment WAS just an obligation at that point since they were no longer together.

That part I really disliked.

The plot was really stupid and made the characters act very stupid - just so they could do that musical episode.  In the end, Barry and Iris came off looking way out of character.  Iris never would have treated Barry that way and Barry NEVER would have broken up with Iris just because she gave the ring back.  Just piss poor writing - it's hard for me to read too much into black this or that when the writing failed on all levels.  The end result of the bad writing does make it look like a weird power play from Barry - but I don't believe it because he's never behaved that way before.  And neither has Iris.

I do agree that the writing has put Iris in the SBW area - but I did appreciate that they actually let Iris on more than one occasion, be vulnerable with Barry and others about her fears.  She had a fearful reaction when Barry told her about it and then in later episodes too.  I would love to see a lot more of that, but this show has never really given any women strong character moments.

[Trini]

On 4/18/2017 at 0:48 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

... He didn't dump her. And at the risk of being beaned, this is The Flash, so of course, most of the POV, will be from Barry. Should we see more of how this affects Iris? Of course. But again, [putting on flak jacket and helmet], This isn't Barry and Iris, but The Flash.

I agree with you that we will be seeing things mainly from Barry's POV since he is the central character, HOWEVER, if the show really wants us to buy into Iris being the most important person in his life, the person who he needs to be The Flash, the person he'd sacrifice everything to save, we really do need to see both halves of this couple fleshed out. I think they've been slightly better about that this season; but like most things, they could do much better.

 

On 4/18/2017 at 2:30 PM, Katsullivan said:

...

I think that's your answer right there. Everything about that arc was driven by Plot and not consistent characterisation and it showed. Barry's actions make no more sense than Iris's. It didn't make sense that Barry who is supposed to be savouring every moment of time he has with Iris, the love of his life who has a pending death sentence of months into the future, would want any degree of space from her. It didn't make sense that Iris would be so upset that he wanted to save her life that she would treat him as coldly as she did.

 

However that's not really the discussion here. What's being discussed here is the optics of this story. Iris, a Black woman, had misgivings about her relationship with Barry, a White man. She takes off his ring, but makes it clear that she still wants to be in a relationship with him, and is ready to marry him, for the right reasons. In response, Barry tells her he's moving out of their flat, and in the next episode it's made very clear that they broke up. To all intents and purposes, Barry dumped Iris because she dared to make demands on him. He then decides that he wants her back, and she accepts him without a single word of criticism or challenge because she has, effectively, learnt her lesson. (The lesson being: don't you dare demand more from the (White) man in your life because he has all the power in your relationship).

I see where you're coming from, but I honestly can't view the break-up that deeply because it was just so clearly out of character for Barry (and Iris too, actually), coupled with the fact that it was to set up the musical. (Which is another issue, because they could have had the same plot without the "fake" proposal, break-up nonsense!)

Edited April 21, 2017 by Trini

[Katsullivan]

On 4/22/2017 at 3:46 PM, doram said:

Now that I've seen what happened in Supergirl, it's pretty obvious to me that this was CWTV's first attempt to pull a Karolsen - > Karamel takeover after 1A. There was the karaoke nonsense in 1B, and promoting the fake!Barry/Caitlin kiss like if Snowbarry was the show's OTP. They filmed, then edited out every "bonding" experience Westallen shared in 2A - Iris visiting Barry at the hospital after Zoom broke him (after showing a reaction shot of her in CCPN), Barry visiting her in "Fast Lane", mourning together over their dead mothers because they obviously wanted us to forget that Westallen was a thing. They downplayed their leading lady's presence (honestly, there are some episodes where she literally only says 1 line) to the point where she became a supporting character - and I still maintain that Iris's storyline in 1B was supposed to go in a completely different direction, and got her more involved with the Harrison Wells investigation. Then in season 2, they brought in Patty and pushed her in our faces at every given opportunity, complete with the requisite damselling at every turn with random villains like Turtle* immediately assuming that she was "important" to the Flash. 

They were clearly trying to replace Candice/Iris with the Shantel/Patty. I honestly don't know what made them change their minds but I strongly believe that if Patty/Shantel had half of the fan popularity/base of Candice/Iris, the show would have gone in a completely different direction. 

The CWTV is notorious for doing 'bait and switch' where diversity - specifically African-American diversity casting - is concerned. From Pete Ross to Bonnie Bennett, canonically important characters from original source material who are "race bent" end up playing diminished roles in the TV adaptations, and/or are quietly killed off, leaving an all-white cast by the end of the show. 

So I am quite certain that that was the plan for Iris West. Iris/Barry were not supposed to be end-game & the set up was for her to either remain in unrequited love category, and eventually leave town out of frustration/anger at Barry for his secrets or to get together and die quickly. It's clear in 2A that they intended to write off Iris/Candice if Spallen had been as popular as they hoped. Joe West will eventually die, as all mentors/parent-figures do in this type of story; and Wally West will probably go to another Earth to be the Flash there. At the end of the day, the cast will be lily-white and I'm convinced that the producers still have Snowbarry in mind as their eventual endgame.

[teenj12]

On 4/25/2017 at 11:40 AM, Katsullivan said:

The CWTV is notorious for doing 'bait and switch' where diversity - specifically African-American diversity casting - is concerned. From Pete Ross to Bonnie Bennett, canonically important characters from original source material who are "race bent" end up playing diminished roles in the TV adaptations, and/or are quietly killed off, leaving an all-white cast by the end of the show. 

So I am quite certain that that was the plan for Iris West. Iris/Barry were not supposed to be end-game & the set up was for her to either remain in unrequited love category, and eventually leave town out of frustration/anger at Barry for his secrets or to get together and die quickly. It's clear in 2A that they intended to write off Iris/Candice if Spallen had been as popular as they hoped. Joe West will eventually die, as all mentors/parent-figures do in this type of story; and Wally West will probably go to another Earth to be the Flash there. At the end of the day, the cast will be lily-white and I'm convinced that the producers still have Snowbarry in mind as their eventual endgame.

The only thing about this, is I don't think anything in this show has ever pointed to Snowbarry. Snowbarry exists solely as a deluded crackship based on the erasure of Iris West. And yeah, I know DP has promoted it in the past, but that's just her being shitty.

In the established canon of this show, neither Barry or Caitlin have ever considered each other in that way. Hell, Barry doesn't even seem to care much for Caitlin in comparison to Iris or Cisco. So, I trust that the producers wouldn't pull something that unbelievably dumb.

[johntfs]

5 minutes ago, teenj12 said:

Hell, Barry doesn't even seem to care much for Caitlin in comparison to Iris or Cisco.

Which is understandable.  I'm sure Barry cares about Caitlin, but Iris is the love of his life and Cisco is established as his best friend.

[tofutan]

I never got the impression that the writers were pulling back from Westallen. It seems to me that they made it very clear from season 2 on especially that Barry/Caitlin was never gonna be a real thing, at least from his side (of course the way they keep dangling Flash/Killer Frost, maybe as a sort of Catwoman/Batman thing is kinda creepy). 

I do think that they absolutely want to keep the status of Iris as Barry's big one thing, but the problem is that this hasn't resulted in actual quality development for her. Like, cool that she has this status, but what point is there to it if it doesn't give her screentime/storylines/POV? 

I would like to point out Arrow as the other major show who did a switcheroo (I don't count Smallville because those were special circumstances, with it being comic canon on one side and the actress leaving on the other side), one where race didn't play a role and it was a draaaaaagy process where it seems like the writers were treating Laurel worse and worse and giving her storylines that made her look pathetic. 

On the subject of lighting, whenever the topic comes up, I love giving this indian music video as an example. Look at the white dancers in the background and just how horrible they look. This is what happens if the light is chosen to make the main guys look good. It's a very light light to make their skin look lighter, but it makes the white skinned dancers look like zombies. 

Edited May 6, 2017 by tofutan