Lightning Rods: Gender, Race, Homosexuality and Other Sensitive Topics

[tofutan]

Very cool report. I still wish reports like these would let us see the raw data. Am I reading this right, CW actually does somewhat okay in "shows with 3 or more POC writers" but terrible with black writers specifically? 

[paulvdb]

Yes, if I interpret the data correctly the CW is the only network with 2 or more POC writers on all their shows. But very few of them are black.

[tofutan]

These are the graphs I was talking about (all the numbers higher than 3 are also 0 for CW): 

 
 

I also assume that the show with 6 POC writers is Jane. 

I also assume that with minority they do mean POC in this case (and not let's say LGBT) because of this graph: 

 

They do really well with gender of writers and showrunners, actually having more female than male showrunners? 

(also, huh? According to the other graphs the CW has 15 shows, but it it looks like only 9 showrunners? That doesn't make any sense I know a lot of showrunners do double duty, but on the flipside many shows have multiple showrunners.)

Edited January 5, 2018 by tofutan

[Kate45]

On 5/6/2017 at 0:19 PM, Katsullivan said:

I know of at least one Flash writer that hates Iris/Candice and ships Snowbarry (she favorited a tweet by a Snowbarry fan that likened her to a monkey). Then you read of guest writers who have their Westallen scenes "toned" down or outright erased, by the core writers and the room for debate diminishes.

Which writer are you referring to? Was it from someone last season?

All of the writers from last season (except for one) were either fired or left on their own.

[Primal Slayer]

At the DCinDC panel, Candice was asked about how The Flash doesn't really bring up Iris and fam being black: she and Jesse have discussed it but The Flash is about Barrys story. She'd like to explore Barry growing up in a black family. They would need black writers and directors to explore that.

Unfortunately the panel went over so that was the only question asked from the audience.

[Trini]

Here's a write-up of Candice's comments about race on The Flash: 'Candice Patton On Why The Flash Doesn't Talk About Black People'

Quote

“It’s a tricky thing, to discuss that kind of content. For me as an actor, I would need to feel like I had black writers and creators carefully handling that topic,” said Flash star Candice Patton. “It’s also the show isn’t about the West family. It’s Barry Allen's story.”

...

While The Flash must keep focus on Barry Allen’s story in relation to the West family instead of vice versa, Patton says there may be opportunity to deeper introduce black culture within Barry and Iris’ interpersonal relationship.

“The lighter sides of a black woman and a white guy dating. As far as the deeper issues of Black Lives Matter and police brutality, it’s hard on a show like The Flash where we are telling Barry Allen’s story, which is why I’m so excited for Black Lightning.”

 

She also had other comments about being a black woman playing Iris West, and what that represents. Hopefully, DC uploads the panels, but you can find her comments on Youtube and social media.

====

I don't really expect informed social commentary from The Flash, but the fact that they almost never mention race at all when the show is a) fairly diverse (by CW standards), b) the most diverse of the DCTV shows (until Black Lightning), and c) has a white lead (partially) raised in a black family (which I'm pretty sure is a first on TV), is odd.

However, I agree with Candice - I'd be more comfortable with the show addressing race if the writer's room was more diverse.

[Primal Slayer]

The entire panel is on Youtube, I just dont think they broke it down into sections but it was like 5hrs long.

2 minutes ago, Trini said:

Here's a write-up of Candice's comments about race on The Flash: 'Candice Patton On Why The Flash Doesn't Talk About Black People'

 

She also had other comments about being a black woman playing Iris West, and what that represents. Hopefully, DC uploads the panels, but you can find her comments on Youtube and social media.

[ruby24]

I've always thought it odd as well, that it's never been mentioned even once. And not even in a critical comment or anything, just as an observation. That Barry and Iris ARE an interracial couple, that he grew up in a black family, etc. You'd think they could maybe mention it in passing or something.

[Maverick]

Why does it have to a thing, or even mentioned?  Isn't the goal to have an inter-racial marriage to be seen as just a marriage and not qualified as something different?   The show has done the same thing with gay people.  You've had a gay villain in The Pied Piper, Singh getting married and The Ray and Citizen Cold macking on each other without the other characters reacting to it.   No one tells Singh how hard it must have been on the force or how sweet it is Ray and Cold can feel comfortable being that openly romantic.  Sometimes it's good to see diverse people interacting together without it being seen as something as outside the norm. 

[Trini]

No one is asking for a PSA. The Wests are Black, and that should be acknowledged and not completely ignored.

[Starry]

I'm okay with the Wests race not being made into a thing in regular episodes but not when you have a crossover with Nazis and you manage to give grand speeches and a PoV to some of the LGBTQ and Jewish characters but not to the black ones.

What's important to me is that the writers avoid racist stereotypes and don't display racism and/or anti-blackness in the way they handle their non-white characters. Someone corrects me if I'm wrong but I think The Flash writers room only has a couple of PoC, a black man, a Latina woman and? Most of them seem to be white which is jarring considering that the cast is fairly diverse. And of course there are no black women despite the leading lady being a black woman.

I'm glad that Candice talked about the importance of being a hero without superpowers or a scientific background (the STEM characters seem to be put on a pedestal in this fandom...). I'm also happy that she addressed the issue of Iris being the main love interest which is revolutionary as "love interest" is a role usually meant for white women. The moderator also pointed out the fact that they wouldn't have cast movie Iris as a black woman if show-Iris and Westallen weren't successful. I loved it.

[BaggythePanther]

7 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I've always thought it odd as well, that it's never been mentioned even once. And not even in a critical comment or anything, just as an observation. That Barry and Iris ARE an interracial couple, that he grew up in a black family, etc. You'd think they could maybe mention it in passing or something.

They did kind of acknowledge it last season in the episode where Barry lost his memories. Barry asked Wally how they knew each other and Wally said that they were brothers. Then Barry looked at his hands, presumably to double check his skin color.

 

If there aren’t many writers of color on staff then it’s probably best they stay away from the topic. 

[BaggythePanther]

Quote

Like, I always thought it was something of a missed opportunity in The Flash that they've never really gotten into Barry being a white kid adopted by a black family when he was a child. It doesn't have to be a HUGE thing, or turn into a stereotype fest, but it is something that I always thought could have been an interesting aspect of the West family dynamic that has never really been looked into. You dont have to make everything about race, but acknowledging that it exists, especially in a world that is clearly so much like ours, isn't a bad thing, especially if it leads to interesting story opportunities. 

Someone asked Candice about this at the DC in D.C. panel on Monday. She agreed that it would be an interesting story to tell but implied that there weren’t many POC on the writing staff so the current writers don’t know how to tell that story in an authentic way. They’re not like the Arrow writers, attempting to write a BLM episode with a white writing staff. 

Hopefully Black Lightening will continue to be successful and it will encourage this writing team to hire more POC and tell this type of story. 

[notagain]

On 1/14/2018 at 4:40 AM, BaggythePanther said:

They did kind of acknowledge it last season in the episode where Barry lost his memories. Barry asked Wally how they knew each other and Wally said that they were brothers. Then Barry looked at his hands, presumably to double check his skin color.

 

If there aren’t many writers of color on staff then it’s probably best they stay away from the topic. 

I agree with you, they need to stay away. 

 

I have a question, " Why is the depiction of blackness only shown in relation to racism?".  

Black people, let me be more specific and use an enthic group, African-Americans are more than racism.  We have been here since the inception of this country, and as much as they have tried to use intimidation and violence to beat West Africa out of us, it stayed and molded together with the European enthic cultural bonds and created a new people, a new culture.  Racism is not our entire story, it's the lemons given to us and we made lemonade, and we continue to do so. And honestly I'm tried of the lemons being the only thing defining my people in this damn country and the media. 

 

Christmas/thanksgiving scenes are easy ways of showing who the Wests are culturally, someone randomly asking where the sweet potatoe pie, pecan pie, or anything considered soul food. Maybe Joe likes stinky-ass chitlins, and Barry and Iris remembers the first Thanksgiving Joe stunk up the house cooking them. My interpretation of 'Iris sleeping in a scarf' comment, for some black people that's cultural representation of a black women. We want more representation past our history with American racism. 

 

But for the writers to know the cultural practices of African-Americans, or any other enthic group in the African/black diaspora, would require them having a person on the team representing. I guess at the very least they could visit National Museum of African-American History and Culutre, but let's be real in the writers eyes the Wests outside of Barry ain't that damn important to the story. 

Edited January 19, 2018 by notagain

[Trini]

On 1/18/2018 at 5:27 PM, notagain said:

I have a question, " Why is the depiction of blackness only shown in relation to racism?".  

Are you talking about The Flash in particular? Because I don't think that has been the case. (They mainly ignore race altogether.)

[notagain]

I was referring to certain comments made before mine, but my question could be applied across all TV shows and movies. The only way characters are accepted as being black, other than the physical appearance of the character, is if they're given racism as a storyline and then being reduced to a PSA. 

Edited January 23, 2018 by notagain

[johntfs]

15 hours ago, notagain said:

I was referring to certain comments made before mine, but my question could be applied across all TV shows and movies. The only way characters are accepted as being black, other than the physical appearance of the character, is if they're given racism as a storyline and then being reduced to a PSA. 

I think that's been true in the past and is still true in some instances but is far less evident on the CW super shows.  John Diggle is clearly a Black man but he hasn't had a story centered around racism.  While Jax and Amaya have brushed up against race issues (especially in the episode in Season 2 of LoT that was set during the Civil War) it's never been a defining point for either character.  Neither has it been a defining characteristic/story for James Olson on Supergirl.  Really the closest you come to something like that is in Black Lightning and even then it's just one aspect of the world in which the characters exist.

Edited January 23, 2018 by johntfs

[Katsullivan]

On 1/18/2018 at 5:27 PM, notagain said:

I have a question, " Why is the depiction of blackness only shown in relation to racism?".

Because racism is as American as apple pie. 

[johntfs]

4 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Because racism is as American as apple pie. 

Apple pie started in England before coming to America - just like most Colonial American.  Also, Racism predates apple pie and, really, any pie, by quite a lot.

Edited January 23, 2018 by johntfs

[notagain]

19 hours ago, johntfs said:

I think that's been true in the past and is still true in some instances but is far less evident on the CW super shows.  John Diggle is clearly a Black man but he hasn't had a story centered around racism.  While Jax and Amaya have brushed up against race issues (especially in the episode in Season 2 of LoT that was set during the Civil War) it's never been a defining point for either character.  Neither has it been a defining characteristic/story for James Olson on Supergirl.  Really the closest you come to something like that is in Black Lightning and even then it's just one aspect of the world in which the characters exist.

I know the show hasn't touched race. The show likes to write in a colorblind way, until they need a throw away joke(the time Wally referred to Barry as Iris' " white shadow"). Their use of colorblind writing and casting is how you end up with the tone-deaf Dominic storyline. 

Edited January 24, 2018 by notagain

[Trini]

From the 4.13 episode thread:

43 minutes ago, twoods said:

Is this the last time we see beautiful Dominic? I'm still pissed he got killed off when he wasn't a bad guy. And now it's Becky's turn.

I never thought it was "racist" what DeVoe did to Dominic and then the metas and warden tonight because I see them as characters and not people of a certain race. There is outcry when minorities aren't cast on shows, and when there is a good show that does cast minorities the storyline has to be a certain way so people don't get offended. DeVoe is a crazy, sick bastard who made metahumans specifically to absorb their powers- their race shouldn't have an impact on the storytelling. 

I'll just say that ignoring race is how the writers ended up with a storyline with (unintentional) racist undertones. At best, it was still tone deaf.

Also, just having minorities in the cast doesn't mean there can't be problems with how they are represented. Race doesn't always (or even most times on a show like this) have to factor into a storyline; but there should at least be some awareness in the writers room. Because there are times that it does matter.

[phoenics]

8 hours ago, Trini said:

From the 4.13 episode thread:

I'll just say that ignoring race is how the writers ended up with a storyline with (unintentional) racist undertones. At best, it was still tone deaf.

Also, just having minorities in the cast doesn't mean there can't be problems with how they are represented. Race doesn't always (or even most times on a show like this) have to factor into a storyline; but there should at least be some awareness in the writers room. Because there are times that it does matter.

I agree.  And about colorblindness (it's not really all that benign):  https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/culturally-speaking/201112/colorblind-ideology-is-form-racism

In addition, you can see how a colorblind mindset can be problematic when someone says they don't see the characters are people of color (when they are) and thus concludes that no racism occurred.  Because they don't "see" color.

*racepalm*

So, SO problematic.

[johntfs]

47 minutes ago, phoenics said:

In addition, you can see how a colorblind mindset can be problematic when someone says they don't see the characters are people of color (when they are) and thus concludes that no racism occurred.  Because they don't "see" color.

Figure Devoe is a person who is "colorblind."  Really, he's blind to all considerations except enacting his plan.  Moral and ethics qualms about kidnapping, murder and, yes, racial insensitivity are irrelevant to him.  Whatever good end he hopes to accomplish (and he couched his idea as a way to "save the world"), he's using some truly evil means to achieve it.  It's why he's the Bad Guy.  As the Bad Guy, he's doing Bad Things, and some of those Bad Things are racially insensitive, but he's doing them anyway because he's the Bad Guy.

Figure if for some reason Caitlin (or even Iris) was suddenly dying and Team Flash had access to Devoe's body-transference technology, they still wouldn't kidnap (or buy) Peekaboo to take her body for the dying person's use.  Because if even they sometimes do some shady things (like fabricating evidence to get Barry out of jail), they're still basically good people and there's some lines they wouldn't cross no matter what.

[phoenics]

7 minutes ago, johntfs said:

Figure Devoe is a person who is "colorblind."  Really, he's blind to all considerations except enacting his plan.  Moral and ethics qualms about kidnapping, murder and, yes, racial insensitivity are irrelevant to him.  Whatever good end he hopes to accomplish (and he couched his idea as a way to "save the world"), he's using some truly evil means to achieve it.  It's why he's the Bad Guy.  As the Bad Guy, he's doing Bad Things, and some of those Bad Things are racially insensitive, but he's doing them anyway because he's the Bad Guy.

Figure if for some reason Caitlin (or even Iris) was suddenly dying and Team Flash had access to Devoe's body-transference technology, they still wouldn't kidnap (or buy) Peekaboo to take her body for the dying person's use.  Because if even they sometimes do some shady things (like fabricating evidence to get Barry out of jail), they're still basically good people and there's some lines they wouldn't cross no matter what.

I'm not talking about how DeVoe as a character sees things.  I'm talking about how someone in the fandom (see above - it's who Trini responded to) said they were colorblind to the races of these characters, therefore no racism happened because they don't see color. That is extremely problematic because the racial implications are still there and it's less easy for viewers of color to just "ignore" race and pretend the racially problematic themes aren't there. And then to see an argument that uses colorblindness to effectively erase the racism - it's problematic.

Also - your point still is problematic because no one on the show called him out for THAT evil thing.  If he's so evil that they mention all of his other evil, but not the glaring racial evil, then it's as if the show isn't acknowledging that it WAS racially problematic.  Which is the entire issue Trini and I are pointing out.

[johntfs]

5 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Also - your point still is problematic because no one on the show called him out for THAT evil thing.  If he's so evil that they mention all of his other evil, but not the glaring racial evil, then it's as if the show isn't acknowledging that it WAS racially problematic.  Which is the entire issue Trini and I are pointing out.

Would you really want someone on the show, especially Joe, Cecile or Iris, to call him out on THAT evil thing?  I wouldn't, because they'd sound silly/stupid.  Like, "Not only is DeVoe willing to commit kidnapping and murder, worst of all he's willing to be racially insensitive!" 

[twoods]

I get your guys' point (and it's a good one). I'm just stating that I watch and like my characters and try to be as colorblind about it because that's how I've always watched TV. There is so much bad that goes on in the world and watching shows is my way to escape from it all. If that makes me insensitive to ignore the racial undertones of shows, I am sorry for that.  In the end, I am watching a fictional show with fictional characters and if I get upset with everything I watch (like I do with the news), I am going to have to find something else for my escapism.

And for the record, I'm a minority female. 

Edited February 7, 2018 by twoods

[johntfs]

For my part, I'm fine with discussing this as part of the audience.  I just don't really want the characters on the show to mention it because it'd make them sound a bit silly.  Yes, the optics of a white man literally buying a black man to use his body were kind of bad.  That said, would you prefer good optics and a different reality to bad optics and reality?  Because the different reality would mean that a white male played Dominic and the black male failed to get the work/exposure/paycheck that came from that role in reality.  I'm cool with bad optics because that means that the black guy playing Dominic/DeVoe got work, exposure and a paycheck, which I think is pretty good, overall.

Edited February 7, 2018 by johntfs

[phoenics]

4 hours ago, johntfs said:

Would you really want someone on the show, especially Joe, Cecile or Iris, to call him out on THAT evil thing?  I wouldn't, because they'd sound silly/stupid.  Like, "Not only is DeVoe willing to commit kidnapping and murder, worst of all he's willing to be racially insensitive!" 

*sigh*

I'd rather the writers didn't write it in such a racially insensitive way.  And actually I'd would have preferred it if BARRY had called it out when he was 1 on 1 with Devoe/Dominic by pointing out how sick it was for him to snatch Dominic's body.  He doesn't have to call out the racial implications of it - the writers should have known that on its own - but he could easily could have called out what he knew of it.  And Iris/Joe or Cecile or even Cisco could have pointed out in previous episodes it was for metas to be bought and sold like slaves.

It can be done well in a way that doesn't sound "silly" as you put it.  

[johntfs]

10 minutes ago, phoenics said:

It can be done well in a way that doesn't sound "silly" as you put it.  

It can be done well and it probably would be done well on Black Lightning, but this is The Flash, the show that took almost 3 season to show Barry recognize that there was such a thing as a noticeable difference in his skin color and that of the other Wests.  As for the writing, the only way to be "racially sensitive" when it comes to a story about a white guy stealing and inhabiting other peoples' bodies is to not cast a person of color as one of the snatched bodies.  So, Kendrick Sampson doesn't get a paycheck because some other white dude gets it.

[phoenics]

4 hours ago, twoods said:

I get your guys' point (and it's a good one). I'm just stating that I watch and like my characters and try to be as colorblind about it because that's how I've always watched TV. There is so much bad that goes on in the world and watching shows is my way to escape from it all. If that makes me insensitive to ignore the racial undertones of shows, I am sorry for that.  In the end, I am watching a fictional show with fictional characters and if I get upset with everything I watch (like I do with the news), I am going to have to find something else for my escapism.

And for the record, I'm a minority female. 

Look I get it - I'm a black woman (it's nearly impossible for me to ignore racial tone deafness) and I know this is meant to be escapism.  So I have no issue with deciding that you yourself are going to treat the characters as if race doesn't exist (it still defaults to everyone being seen as "colorless" or "white", because that's what is normalized in this country, but I digress).

My only issue is declaring there is no racially problematic stuff when other people who aren't choosing (or can't choose) to be colorblind point it out.  That's when you're actively aiding and abetting said tone deafness and thusly contributing (see the article I posted above) to the racially problematic-ness we're arguing against.

In theory, colorblindness is nice - but I've found that I have to switch off way too much of my own racial knowledge and experiences in order to "enjoy".  I literally have to pretend racism, sexism, etc. don't exist and that's really hard to do when the writers slap you in the face with it.

53 minutes ago, johntfs said:

It can be done well and it probably would be done well on Black Lightning, but this is The Flash, the show that took almost 3 season to show Barry recognize that there was such a thing as a noticeable difference in his skin color and that of the other Wests.  As for the writing, the only way to be "racially sensitive" when it comes to a story about a white guy stealing and inhabiting other peoples' bodies is to not cast a person of color as one of the snatched bodies.  So, Kendrick Sampson doesn't get a paycheck because some other white dude gets it.

I know - but why does that story have to be written that way?  There were other ways to write this so that he didn't have to do what he did.  He could have just stolen his powers and that's it.  They even could have done Amunet differently - in comics she doesn't buy/sell them - she gets some to actually fight in cage matches on their own and in others she drugs them to do what she wants.  The point is - why did the writers choose the buying/selling angle when they could have chosen a different route.

There is ALWAYS another way and if white writers and producers and the folks in charge would STOP thinking that having to consider diversity and how not to be racist assholes in their writing is some kind of horrible hardship we could get somewhere.

[lion10]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

I know - but why does that story have to be written that way?  There were other ways to write this so that he didn't have to do what he did.  He could have just stolen his powers and that's it.  They even could have done Amunet differently - in comics she doesn't buy/sell them - she gets some to actually fight in cage matches on their own and in others she drugs them to do what she wants.  The point is - why did the writers choose the buying/selling angle when they could have chosen a different route.

Oh, well forcing metas to fight in cage matches and drugging them to be compliant is so much better than just selling them to people.  As a black guy, I saw what Devoe did to Dominic as very much like "Get Out", but I didn't really think about the racial politics past that, because Devoe's take over of Dominic made sense, he's got a super brain and Dominic's powers made him a perfect match to be taken over - he was just unlucky.

 

This past episode though...woo.  So we've got Ralph (who I'm still on the fence about) doing an elaborate form of blackface, Iris referring to a Scottish character as "Braveheart" (which was funny, but still), and Devoe giving his wife a meta-roofie so she stayed with him.  It's like the "The Flash" writers saved all their controversy for this episode.  Thoughts?

[Terrafamilia]

When Ralph was trying to morph into Wolfe I wondered whether they would then have someone come out with the necessary makeup to complete the effect. But, no, Ralph has control over his melanocytes. I was all wha? Is that within comics canon? Then came the problem of maintaining the form in front of Amunet. Then I realized - instead of just Ralph standing there when the jig was up, we would have had Ralph standing there in blackface! While the people of Central City may live in a post-racial society where such a thing would not rile people up to such an extent the producers and the audience do not.

[johntfs]

5 minutes ago, Terrafamilia said:

Is that within comics canon?

In comics canon

Spoiler

Ralph's wife, Sue Dibny gets raped by a supervillain and them accidentally murdered by Ray Palmer's ex-wife, who stole his tech and walked around on Sue's brain.

So, honestly, fuck comics canon.

[Trini]

3 hours ago, johntfs said:

It can be done well and it probably would be done well on Black Lightning, but this is The Flash, the show that took almost 3 season to show Barry recognize that there was such a thing as a noticeable difference in his skin color and that of the other Wests.  As for the writing, the only way to be "racially sensitive" when it comes to a story about a white guy stealing and inhabiting other peoples' bodies is to not cast a person of color as one of the snatched bodies.  So, Kendrick Sampson doesn't get a paycheck because some other white dude gets it.

I think there are various ways they could have done the story to be less insensitive. They could re-cast The Thinker instead!

[johntfs]

4 hours ago, Trini said:

They could re-cast The Thinker instead!

To be fair, they actually have re-cast The Thinker.  Twice now.  And not for nothing but in the real world where we all have to live, this story-line, insensitive though it might have been, means that Kendrick Sampson, a real black person, got to show off his acting chops by effectively playing two very different characters, including a coolly ruthless, intellectual villain.  That might get him more acting opportunities.  It's also a bit more evidence to show studio bosses that black men don't have to be victims or thugs.  That they have the same range of acting skills that white men do.

[phoenics]

23 hours ago, johntfs said:

To be fair, they actually have re-cast The Thinker.  Twice now.  And not for nothing but in the real world where we all have to live, this story-line, insensitive though it might have been, means that Kendrick Sampson, a real black person, got to show off his acting chops by effectively playing two very different characters, including a coolly ruthless, intellectual villain.  That might get him more acting opportunities.  It's also a bit more evidence to show studio bosses that black men don't have to be victims or thugs.  That they have the same range of acting skills that white men do.

Yes you said this.  It still doesn't mean this couldn't have been handled differently and still kept Dominic.  I don't know how but I'm not paid tons of money to know.  Writing in a socially conscious way should enhance writing - it's only a restriction to writers who refuse to open themselves up to other possibilities.

[phoenics]

On 2/7/2018 at 7:37 PM, lion10 said:

Oh, well forcing metas to fight in cage matches and drugging them to be compliant is so much better than just selling them to people.  As a black guy, I saw what Devoe did to Dominic as very much like "Get Out", but I didn't really think about the racial politics past that, because Devoe's take over of Dominic made sense, he's got a super brain and Dominic's powers made him a perfect match to be taken over - he was just unlucky.

 

This past episode though...woo.  So we've got Ralph (who I'm still on the fence about) doing an elaborate form of blackface, Iris referring to a Scottish character as "Braveheart" (which was funny, but still), and Devoe giving his wife a meta-roofie so she stayed with him.  It's like the "The Flash" writers saved all their controversy for this episode.  Thoughts?

Except in tonight's episode, they showed the thinker could simply absorb the powers - so why did he need to hijack Dominic?  I'm not saying I didn't want to see more Dominic (I did) - but I'd rather see writers think more about these implications and how it can be problematic and at least address it.  But doing it and not even letting the characters comment on any of it - that's crazy.  So apparently the CW comic shows can comment on how bad Nazis are, but racially problematic things to black men are just fine?

At least call out how jacked up it is.  You mean to tell me they missed out on Cisco being like - "Damn, DeVoe did Dominic like he was in Get Out" or "OMG it's like Get Out" - SOMETHING to acknowledge the horror of what happened.  But no one even blinked.  No one even seemed to blink about Amunet running a meta slave ring either - Iris and the gang tried to rescue one of them, but never went back after her or sent Flash after her to stop her after that.

And THAT would have made the team look far more proactive than this reactive mess we've been getting.  In fact - if the writers had been thinking more they would have thought of so many different ways to handle this storyline that actually treated the racially problematic stuff with respect AND opened up far more depthful and realistic storytelling than the thin stuff we've gotten.

[phoenics]

Here is an article about the uselessness of tokenism:  Black People Need More Representation And Fewer ‘Representatives’

Edited February 9, 2018 by phoenics

[johntfs]

15 hours ago, phoenics said:

Except in tonight's episode, they showed the thinker could simply absorb the powers - so why did he need to hijack Dominic? 

He didn't necessarily "need" to, but he wanted Dominic's form so he could walk again (and also his old body was dying pretty fast).  Also, his old body was going to be used to frame Barry.  A better question to me is "why did he need to hijack Becky?"  Maybe even with the chair, the strain of using his super-brain is such that it wears out bodies pretty fast so he has to switch them out like defective batteries.  I get what you're saying.  It shouldn't be that hard to write even a story-line like this (with its overtones of slavery and buying black bodies for a white person's use) in a socially conscious manner.  However, people are sometimes lazy mother-fuckers who prefer the path of least resistance.  So, I fear the writers and show-runners on this show will look at complaints about the story-line and decide to just cast a white dude next time.

[phoenics]

7 hours ago, johntfs said:

He didn't necessarily "need" to, but he wanted Dominic's form so he could walk again (and also his old body was dying pretty fast).  Also, his old body was going to be used to frame Barry.  A better question to me is "why did he need to hijack Becky?"  Maybe even with the chair, the strain of using his super-brain is such that it wears out bodies pretty fast so he has to switch them out like defective batteries.  I get what you're saying.  It shouldn't be that hard to write even a story-line like this (with its overtones of slavery and buying black bodies for a white person's use) in a socially conscious manner.  However, people are sometimes lazy mother-fuckers who prefer the path of least resistance.  So, I fear the writers and show-runners on this show will look at complaints about the story-line and decide to just cast a white dude next time.

My point is that the writers are thinking in a binary way (so are you) - one in which the only options appear to be writing racially problematic tropes OR not casting black people.  That's lazy and quite frankly, it reeks of white privilege on the writer's part.  I'm saying they could have made Dominic have super healing AND telepathy - which would have meant he could have been healed.  Dominic could have just had his powers sucked out.

If the writers were clever, they could have found another use for Dominic.

Also - they could have kept the storyline exactly as they wrote it - but at least acknowledged the awfulness of it by having the characters comment on it and call it out for what it was.  That actually would have created a lot more depth in the storytelling.  As it is, it comes off as cartoonish.  

But - we are going in circles.  I've said this before and you keep going back to only seeing a binary solution here, whereas I think there were many different ways to handle this in a racially sensitive way while still employing actors of color and women.Agree to disagree.

Edited February 10, 2018 by phoenics

[Katsullivan]

On 1/23/2018 at 12:39 AM, notagain said:

I was referring to certain comments made before mine, but my question could be applied across all TV shows and movies. The only way characters are accepted as being black, other than the physical appearance of the character, is if they're given racism as a storyline and then being reduced to a PSA. 

Good point. 

 

 

18 minutes ago, phoenics said:

My point is that the writers are thinking in a binary way (so are you) - one in which the only options appear to be writing racially problematic tropes OR not casting black people.  That's lazy and quite frankly, it reeks of white privilege on the writer's part.  

 

Groan.

These discussions are so frustrating. There's too much "in a world where metas with super-powers, aliens, time travel, doppel-gangers from another Earth, there's only one way ever this plot can go."

Failure of imagination or a determination to uphold white privilege/white supremacy beyond reason? From abolition to civil rights to diversity in media --- why do white people always bend over backwards to justify racism?

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, phoenics said:

I've said this before and you keep going back to only seeing a binary solution here, whereas I think there were many different ways to handle this in a racially sensitive way while still employing actors of color and women.Agree to disagree.

That isn't true.  I'm fully aware that the writers could have written the story in a different manner and/or had other characters call out the awfulness/racial insensitivity in a way that didn't seem stupid.  I'm just saying that they probably won't go that route the next time either.  That they'll go the binary route you mentioned and either ignore the racial overtones again or simply avoid/mitigate the controversy by just casting a white person instead of someone of color as the path of least resistance.

[Kate45]

2 hours ago, phoenics said:

If the writers were clever, they could have found another use for Dominic.

I think my main problem with the Dominic storyline is that up to this point of the story, he is the *only* meta who was sold. The tears guy was kidnapped, and Devoe took the powers of the other metas before the sale could occur. Why did Devoe switch bodies again? Was it to create a quasi-LGBT relationship on the show? To make it less offensive when the date rape/ruffie scene occurred (which didn't work for me, at all)?

I'm still trying to figure out why Devoe didn't just get Becky from the beginning? This show gave her villain arc the most amount of attention of any of the bus metas (save for Ralph), and she was the only one seeking redemption in the jail scenes. I won't even go into the strange choices made around that decision. The optics of this situation show a true level of ignorance on the part of the writers. 

The other issue that I've had with their handling of the bus metas was the choice of making Becky a sympathetic villian, while writing Mina in such an non-nuanced way. 

[johntfs]

5 hours ago, Kate45 said:

The other issue that I've had with their handling of the bus metas was the choice of making Becky a sympathetic villian, while writing Mina in such an non-nuanced way. 

I found that almost weirdly progressive.  Mina cares deeply about what she cares about (restoring Native artifacts) but she really doesn't give a shit about other stuff (the people she murders while restoring those artifacts).  Mina has a good point, but she's such a fanatic about it that she's still a villain.  I mean, would you really have wanted her to be the fully sympathetic one up to the point where she gave a speech with a close-up where a single tear rolled down her cheek?

[Kate45]

6 hours ago, johntfs said:

I found that almost weirdly progressive.  Mina cares deeply about what she cares about (restoring Native artifacts) but she really doesn't give a shit about other stuff (the people she murders while restoring those artifacts).  Mina has a good point, but she's such a fanatic about it that she's still a villain.  I mean, would you really have wanted her to be the fully sympathetic one up to the point where she gave a speech with a close-up where a single tear rolled down her cheek?

I do agree that it could have been progressive, but they didn't address the parts that would have made it progressive. 

I actually had an issue with their characterization of Mina since 4x06. They didn't have to have her killing people. This show has had other metas that they attempted make them "not so bad". That should have applied to Mina. It's especially upsetting that Barry didn't even sympathize with her goal. 

Unlike Becky, her goal was noble. I just think it came off IMO as culturally insensitive from a writing standpoint. 

Edited February 10, 2018 by Kate45

[johntfs]

On 2/10/2018 at 1:13 PM, Kate45 said:

I do agree that it could have been progressive, but they didn't address the parts that would have made it progressive. 

I actually had an issue with their characterization of Mina since 4x06. They didn't have to have her killing people. This show has had other metas that they attempted make them "not so bad". That should have applied to Mina. It's especially upsetting that Barry didn't even sympathize with her goal. 

Unlike Becky, her goal was noble. I just think it came off IMO as culturally insensitive from a writing standpoint. 

Sure, but the very nobility of Mina's goal was what justified her actions in her own mind.  Mina is reclaiming her people's stolen history and heritage and if some people get in the way and get killed, fuck 'em, they're descendants of the same pack and thieves and murderers who invaded from Europe with guns, steel and smallpox.  It's nothing they haven't earned.

Becky was selfish.  She'd had a shitty life up to then and was enjoying seeing her luck turn around for a change.  However, in prison, she came to grips with the fact that she was hurting people and did not want to do that again, even if it meant staying behind in prison when Barry broke them out.  If Mina and Becky survive this and regain their lives and powers, Becky will act differently, managing and controlling her abilities so she doesn't cause harm to other.  Mina believes in her goals and mission.  So she'll keep reclaiming artifacts and killing anyone who gets in her way.  Or just killing anyone she thinks deserves it.  People with noble goals can be scary bastards because they can use those "greater goods" to justify a whole host of "lesser" evils.  Hell, think about Osama bin Laden or Hitler.  Do you honestly think they could have done all the horrible things they did without believing absolutely in the justice and righteousness of their respective causes?

[lion10]

On 2/10/2018 at 2:13 PM, Kate45 said:

I do agree that it could have been progressive, but they didn't address the parts that would have made it progressive. 

I actually had an issue with their characterization of Mina since 4x06. They didn't have to have her killing people. This show has had other metas that they attempted make them "not so bad". That should have applied to Mina. It's especially upsetting that Barry didn't even sympathize with her goal. 

Unlike Becky, her goal was noble. I just think it came off IMO as culturally insensitive from a writing standpoint. 

Yeah, but they did have Mina killing people, that was the character they decided to write.  To a certain point, we've got to at least accept the basis of the story the writers make.  Mina was remorselessly killing people on her way to achieving her goal that she deemed getting in her way and also didn't care at all about collateral damage.  With the security guard at the beginning of the episode, Mina didn't even give him a chance to give her the artifact, she just killed him using the stone lion.  Becky wasn't actively hurting anyone, that was a pretty passive ability, though one she could've taken steps to mitigate.  Ralph does arrange for the last artifact she steals to be sent back to the Native American tribe it originally came from.

[phoenics]

On 2/10/2018 at 12:05 AM, Katsullivan said:

Good point. 

 

 

Groan.

These discussions are so frustrating. There's too much "in a world where metas with super-powers, aliens, time travel, doppel-gangers from another Earth, there's only one way ever this plot can go."

Failure of imagination or a determination to uphold white privilege/white supremacy beyond reason? From abolition to civil rights to diversity in media --- why do white people always bend over backwards to justify racism?

I'm confused - are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?

[phoenics]

On 2/10/2018 at 2:40 AM, Kate45 said:

I think my main problem with the Dominic storyline is that up to this point of the story, he is the *only* meta who was sold. The tears guy was kidnapped, and Devoe took the powers of the other metas before the sale could occur. Why did Devoe switch bodies again? Was it to create a quasi-LGBT relationship on the show? To make it less offensive when the date rape/ruffie scene occurred (which didn't work for me, at all)?

I'm still trying to figure out why Devoe didn't just get Becky from the beginning? This show gave her villain arc the most amount of attention of any of the bus metas (save for Ralph), and she was the only one seeking redemption in the jail scenes. I won't even go into the strange choices made around that decision. The optics of this situation show a true level of ignorance on the part of the writers. 

The other issue that I've had with their handling of the bus metas was the choice of making Becky a sympathetic villian, while writing Mina in such an non-nuanced way. 

I completely agree with this and it frustrated me too - especially with how Mina was written.  Her cause was at least righteous.  That Becky (heh) got redemption still sticks in my craw.  Not that Mina necessarily needed redemption anyway for trying to right a cultural wrong.

Edited February 12, 2018 by phoenics

[Katsullivan]

On 2/12/2018 at 1:04 AM, phoenics said:

I'm confused - are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?

I'm agreeing with you. I'm agreeing with you that there are many ways of telling a story - in a fantasy world, mind you - than the binary option of "be offensive" OR "not hire PoCs." And I'm rolling my eyes metaphorically at the whole discussion because in my experience, the insistence of this Either/Or/No 3rd Option stance is just a conscious or subconscious desire to uphold white supremacy at all costs.