Killian Jones/Captain Hook: One Handed Pirate With A Drinking Problem

[Curio]

Hook has kept in a lot more than that, though. In general, he tends to roll with the punches and only snaps when he's reached the end of his rope. When Regina called him out for teaming up with Greg and Tamara in front of everyone, he could have easily brought up the fact that she pushed him to his death, but he bit his tongue. When Emma makes a one-handed comment, he plays it off and says he's good in a fight. When David says he can be a distraction, he makes a joke of it and asks if he's cannon fodder. He clearly wasn't cool with Regina's taunting nicknames and kept biting his tongue until he was the Dark One and let her know his thoughts. He might have felt a bit like a lovesick puppy for Emma but never told her until he was the Dark One. He apparently kept Operation Light Swan a secret because he was nervous about how Emma was going to react. He's got a lot of thoughts bottled up in there.

[Rumsy4]

I agree with that. Theirs hasn't been a relationship of equals so far, even though they both love each other very much. However, he has begun opening up about his issues, and it doesn't look like Emma is listening to him consistently yet. 

[mjgchick]

Yeah he does give her a nod in saying he does trust her judgement but now seeing that you can't even take Emma's heart out (I think the writers kind of forgot about that also the fact that Killian's body is is in Storybrook.) he might think its a waste of time because like he said in the promo, maybe he's meant to move on. When she rescued him he told her "I told you to let it go." so maybe he'll go back to that with her. Poor guy has had a rough 2 months. :(

[YaddaYadda]

Maybe he didn't say anything because everyone else present in the room was okay with Emma's decision?

 

They step into the living room, and Snow (I'm calling her Snow now) was happy to see him, concerned about him, and Henry is happy and congratulating his mother on a job well done, and David is all smiles.

 

These people are happy to see him. Maybe that's the reason he didn't say anything, and maybe he will be saying something about it next episode. 

[scenicbyway]

Although shouldn't she have apprised him of the plan and gotten his input/ok before calling over Regina to rip her heart out?

Obviously he was tired and hurting. Not really in a good place to stand up for himself. Not to mention what just happened with Milah.

I agree, they had literally just walked through the basement door, the gang walks in and Regina immediately wants to do the heart split? Could we give him a chance to wash his face? It's not like they had a plan on how to leave yet anyway. I think Hook was still processing everyone who had walked into the room to save him. He really had no chance to say yes or no. I'm sure it was written as rushed so the audience would know they wouldn't be leaving by heart split or the boat. It was a fast forward way to say they don't have any options at the moment.

[Shanna Marie]

Either there were some stage directions in the script or Colin has come up with a very specific and detailed head canon for how Hook has been injured because I've noticed that he's very consistent in the way he moves and the things that seem to be hurting, even though none of his injuries have happened on-screen. He's dragging the one leg and holding the same spot on his side. I wonder if he has a mental story of how he got hurt that he's working with (and it would be interesting to hear) or if he just decided which parts would hurt.

[PixiePaws1]

I'm probably over analysing but it seems like they have broken Killian right back to the absolute basics. ..like literally stripped him back to his soul.. ..ready to be put back together and built back up again...

[HoodlumSheep]

I'm probably over analysing but it seems like they have broken Killian right back to the absolute basics. ..like literally stripped him back to his soul.. ..ready to be put back together and built back up again...

To me he seems weary. Weary of everything, practically. He's been through a ton of crap in his lifetime. His very long lifetime, and it's all kind of catching up on him.

In my opinion he's feeling his age right now. :'(

Hopefully Emma and co. help him get his spark back.

[Dianthus]

Torture will do that to a body.

[Shanna Marie]

I was rewatching last week's episode before this one, and in the scene where Milah and Killian first meet I noticed that he held intense eye contact with her the entire time he was talking to her. His eyes never strayed from her face. That seems to be his thing with women. What made the tying the bandage with his teeth scene so sexy was the fact that he held eye contact with Emma the entire time he was doing it. And then there was the infamous scene in the tavern between Past Hook and Emma, in which she went in with the cleavage cranked up to 11, and he stared at her face the entire time.

[InsertWordHere]

I prefer the Hook origin story we were given in Good Form and even the beginning of Swan Song to what we saw in The Brothers Jones. I don't like the idea that Hook was always a screw up who was basically trying Liam down. However, I do feel that this better explains why he was so quick to turn against king and country and moral code after Liam's death. He really wasn't ever loyal to the king, the country, or the code, just Liam. He really had no reason to be loyal to the crown. 

Edited March 28, 2016 by InsertWordHere

[profdanglais]

I prefer the Hook origin story we were given in Good Form and even the beginning of Swan Song to what we saw in The Brothers Jones. I don't like the idea that Hook was always a screw up who was basically trying Liam down. 

Agreed. We've seen that Hook is intelligent and a strong, charismatic leader. He had to be, to have so much success as a pirate captain when he's not exactly the biggest, strongest guy on the ship. He's clever and in his pirate days was ruthless. Plus, I've always had the impression that even though he drank too much he never lost control of himself. That would've been fatal, surely? 

 

Some points I made in the episode thread that might be better here:

 

Previous episodes have suggested that Killian had an education. His handwriting, the fact that he can dance and is comfortable at a ball, his navigational skills, his accent, his handling of a sword, his books, all these things point to it. But when? How? If he became a slave when he was so young and remained one right up until he became a Naval officer, how did he manage to learn all of that? Also, if he spent most of his life playing second fiddle to his brother, how did he develop his leadership skills? And the self-loathing from such an early age doesn't jive with the douchebroey thing he had going on in The Crocodile. I could go on. 

 

I really don't like what this season has done to Killian's character. I'm not even talking about Dark Hook, which I actually thought made sense. I mean the thing with him killing his father and now with getting drunk and gambling away his money when he was probably supposed to be what, sixteen? Don't like it. Hook was such an interesting character but we're seeing less and less of that. The worst thing is how absolutely down on himself he is these days. I find it difficult to believe that ALL of his self-aggrandising swagger of yore was just a front to cover up how much he hates himself. Of course, he would have regrets and things he's ashamed of, but this season seems to be inflating that to a ridiculous degree. Surely Hook must have seen some value in himself, based on the loyalty of his crew, say, or his own loyalty and perseverance. Seeing him look so grim all the time genuinely makes me sad. 

[KingOfHearts]

Hook's only contribution to the narrative is angst and porn these days. He doesn't get to be helpful or bring his quick wit. His brooding and self-loathing is jading to watch. He's just not Captain Hook any more. He's Emma's tortured boy toy.

Edited March 28, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[PixiePaws1]

Hook's only contribution to the narrative is angst and porn these days. He doesn't get to be helpful or bring his quick wit. His brooding and self-loathing is jading to watch. He's just not Captain Hook any more. He's Emma's tortured boy toy.

hopefully now that he has finally let go of the self loathing enough to believe he's worth saving and that he doesn't have to tread so carefully around Emma because she is finally walls down...we'll get the flirty inappropriate Hook back.....

[InsertWordHere]

No wonder Hook's had such an unhappy life; for all his travel across realms and seas, be he indentured servant, lieutenant, or pirate, he always ends up in the same damn port.

[HoodlumSheep]

^ I love everything you said, Zoe!

[Rumsy4]

I need to rewatch before I can properly wrap my mind around the flashback, but maybe we shouldn't be surprised it went this way. The Show loves making everyone murderers or screwups in the past so they can make them "morally gray". A straight-laced young Killian wouldn't have fit with that narrative. 

[Camera One]

The straight-laced Killian in "Good Form" was for shock flashback value, so we got the "Surprise!  Hook used to be the polar opposite!".  This time, now in Season 5, they needed to pile on the angst so Hook learns something, so now his seemingly perfect brother ruined his life by becoming an impossible-to-reach ideal when in fact he was a lying selfish mass murderer.  It's basically twisting the story to suit what they want to do with the character.  Liam was one of the few Perfectly Nice Guys left in the Once universe and he needed to be knocked down a thousand and one pegs.  

Edited March 28, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

It does seem like reaction to this flashback depends on what headcanon you had or if you had one.

 

I was never all that bothered by the complete flip at the end of "Good Form" because I figured that was only the start and there was more to come that would explain the gulf between Lt. Jones and the pirate Killian we met in "The Crocodile." He didn't instantly turn pirate. He rebelled against a king he couldn't support, which shows he did have a moral code and values. That was the kind of reaction you see from a betrayed idealist with anger management and impulse control issues. I figured from there it was a slippery slope into piracy, which would illustrate how a good man could fall so far. Start out fighting a one-ship war against a corrupt king, but since they've broken from the navy, they aren't getting supplies, so they'd have to also raid the military ships they attacked to get things like fresh water, food, weapons, and ammunition. But military ships don't carry a lot of cash, and the men need to get paid, and it takes funds to repair the ship after a battle, so they might have decided to attack a civilian ship, maybe trying to limit it to ships supplying their enemy nation, but broadening the scope as they went on. And then the war ended or maybe the king died, or perhaps they got discouraged because their one-ship war wasn't making a difference, but they were getting something out of the piracy, and eventually the piracy wasn't even about the initial grudge against the king anymore.

 

I wonder how far into it the "Devil's Due" flashback was and how far that was from "The Crocodile," because the Killian in "Devil's Due" was still a bit removed from the one in "The Crocodile." He talked about travel and freedom rather than loot and battle, and he walked away once he learned Milah was married rather than mocking her husband.

 

Anyway, that was all my head canon, which fit better with the idea of him always having been rather upright and honorable before sliding, rather than being a screwup who reverted to his old ways.

 

On the other hand, it did seem like they were showing his future leadership abilities. He was the one who recognized the threat to the ship, he was able to rally the men, and he was on course to saving the ship before Liam intervened. I do like the idea that he was hero material his whole life and never recognized it because he was so mired in self-loathing.

[profdanglais]

I wonder how far into it the "Devil's Due" flashback was and how far that was from "The Crocodile," because the Killian in "Devil's Due" was still a bit removed from the one in "The Crocodile." He talked about travel and freedom rather than loot and battle, and he walked away once he learned Milah was married rather than mocking her husband.

It must have been no more than a few weeks. The potion heals Bae, and angry Milah goes straight to the tavern where she had met Killian only hours before. Heck, it could have been a few days later that she ran off with him. I don't think it was long.

 

I don't have a problem reconciling a young man who has problems with drinking and with temper and is a jerk and a bully when he's drunk and shows off a bit in front of his crew with one who also loves freedom and adventure and can lead a pirate crew at a young age and with one who has had naval training and wouldn't force his attentions on a married woman. That's just having a nuanced personality. I do have trouble reconciling someone who drinks until he passes out and gambles all his money when he knows that money is essential to his freedom with those other things. The first man has weaknesses balanced by strengths, the second has no control and no judgement. The only times I really felt like the Killian from The Brothers Jones really seemed like himself was when he was shouting at the captain before the mutiny and when he saw the Jolly Roger for the first time. And even that is a conflict; would the crew really follow into mutiny someone who only hours before was passed out drunk on the deck? Aarrgghhh, I don't know, I just don't like it. 

[tri4335]

 

 

Also, pretty sure it was love at first sight for Hook and the Jolly Roger (before they changed their names) ;)

 

I so agree and it fits into my head cannon that the reason Killian is such a good Captain is because the Jolly Roger chose him as her Captain and as a result works with him to fulfill his wishes/desires. The other captains (Liam and Blackbeard) need a crew to run the JR and yes they go fast but they wouldn't have been able to outrun the curse like him. My HC also allows for Neal and Henry being able to steer her only because she knows that Killian would want them to be safe.  Glad that this flashback did nothing to dispute my HC and makes me think more that they were destined to find each other!

[Camera One]

I do have trouble reconciling someone who drinks until he passes out and gambles all his money when he knows that money is essential to his freedom with those other things.

 

Addiction is pretty tough to beat, even if the logical part of the mind realizes how important the money is.

[HoodlumSheep]

I could see there being a decent amount of time having passed between him and Milah meeting and her ditching Rumple and Baelfire. i had always assumed that they were well acquainted by the time they concocted the "kidnapping" plan. So like, maybe a half a year+ at least???

I don't know. I suppose we'll never really know. Could have been a few weeks, could have been a few months.

*shrugs*

Killian definitely seemed like he had gained some confidence (or at least perfected his mask of bravado) between the time they met and The Crocodile, which does suggest a decent amount of time could have passed.

Edited March 29, 2016 by HoodlumSheep

[Souris]

I was rewatching last week's episode before this one, and in the scene where Milah and Killian first meet I noticed that he held intense eye contact with her the entire time he was talking to her. His eyes never strayed from her face. That seems to be his thing with women. What made the tying the bandage with his teeth scene so sexy was the fact that he held eye contact with Emma the entire time he was doing it. And then there was the infamous scene in the tavern between Past Hook and Emma, in which she went in with the cleavage cranked up to 11, and he stared at her face the entire time.

I actually just read an interview with Colin where he specifically mentioned the eye contact as being central to how he built the character of Hook

[OnceUponAJen]

It's the smolder. It's his super power :)

[Shanna Marie]

I do have trouble reconciling someone who drinks until he passes out and gambles all his money when he knows that money is essential to his freedom with those other things.

I think that's the part that Does Not Compute for me. One of Hook's key character traits is focus to the point of obsession, so that it's both a strength and his tragic flaw, depending on what he's going after. When he wants something, he's in 100 percent and lets nothing stand in his way. The closer he gets to the object of his desire, the more obsessed he gets, to the point that he's willing to do things that he otherwise might find abhorrent. He's never been shown to be any kind of goof-off. He's a full speed ahead, damn the torpedoes kind of guy, and that's the kind of thing that's a character trait, not a learned behavior.

 

So, when he wanted revenge against Rumple, he was willing to help Ursula, right up to the point where he thought that doing so would get in the way of his revenge, and his obsession got the better of him. He was willing to do whatever it took to reach Rumple in Storybrooke, including screwing over Team Princess in spite of his interest in Emma. But then once he switched his sights to Emma, he was willing to follow her from world to world and even through time, and he gave up everything to reach her. He was so all-in that nothing got in his way. That makes it hard for me to believe that a guy who wanted out of servitude and had a plan for it would goof up and screw it up when the goal was in sight.

 

I've never been entirely convinced that Hook was an alcoholic. We've seen him able to stop drinking when he has something else to focus on. He survived more than a week in Neverland with only a tiny flask, and I'd think an alcoholic would have been twitching by that point. When he's got something else to focus on, he can go ages without a drink (we even thought for a while that his flask didn't make it through whatever portal with him in 3B because we went so long without seeing it). I think he's more of a problem drinker, someone who isn't physically addicted to alcohol but who uses it as an emotional crutch. If he had high hopes that his servitude was about to end, would he have been that susceptible to a drink?

 

I think that my head canon is going to have to be that Silver offered him one sip, roofied him with a drug in the drink, then stole his money and told him he lost it gambling. The crew saw it and didn't dare say anything out of fear of their captain, and that's why they were willing to listen to him during the mutiny.

[InsertWordHere]

I so agree and it fits into my head cannon that the reason Killian is such a good Captain is because the Jolly Roger chose him as her Captain and as a result works with him to fulfill his wishes/desires.

The Jolly Roger is basically Hook's TARDIS :)

[didia]

I didn't have a big problem with the drinking because he was supposed to be young and inexperienced. My head canon is that he just "discovered" alcool, and was using it to forget. When I was in high school or even college I saw lots of people who drank until almost pass out. I don't think they grew up to be alcoholic. They just didn't know when to stop, maturity can solve that. I don't think Killian knew what he wanted to do as a free man, maybe he was afraid. ( Being a military was Liam's dream). It didn't help that the captain was trying to break his spirit so he would never have the courage to leave. At this point in his life he just believed he was just like his father, maybe he didn't see a way out. Everything changed when they joined the Navy. He found confidence in his talent. He found that his dream to be a hero was viable ( because in this show everybody wants to be a hero ;-)).

 

I think the captain knew they were great sailors and didn't want to free them, but I think he particularly wanted to keep Killian because he was the must talented. I don't think he focused in him only because he believed he was the weaker link. The men respected and believed in him. Everything that makes Killian Jones who he is was already there, he was just too depressed to see.  Once Liam died he had no longer a protector and couldn't hide behind his shadow. He became the leader he was supposed to be. Now I don't think the darkness is inherent to him, he just needs to reign his temper.

 

My head canon is that the ship is like the One Ring. She wants to be reunited with her master. Even when she was with Neal or Blackbeard she was calling for Hook.

[Curio]

I think that's the part that Does Not Compute for me. One of Hook's key character traits is focus to the point of obsession, so that it's both a strength and his tragic flaw, depending on what he's going after. When he wants something, he's in 100 percent and lets nothing stand in his way. The closer he gets to the object of his desire, the more obsessed he gets, to the point that he's willing to do things that he otherwise might find abhorrent. He's never been shown to be any kind of goof-off. He's a full speed ahead, damn the torpedoes kind of guy, and that's the kind of thing that's a character trait, not a learned behavior.

 

So, when he wanted revenge against Rumple, he was willing to help Ursula, right up to the point where he thought that doing so would get in the way of his revenge, and his obsession got the better of him. He was willing to do whatever it took to reach Rumple in Storybrooke, including screwing over Team Princess in spite of his interest in Emma. But then once he switched his sights to Emma, he was willing to follow her from world to world and even through time, and he gave up everything to reach her. He was so all-in that nothing got in his way. That makes it hard for me to believe that a guy who wanted out of servitude and had a plan for it would goof up and screw it up when the goal was in sight.

 

I've never been entirely convinced that Hook was an alcoholic. We've seen him able to stop drinking when he has something else to focus on. He survived more than a week in Neverland with only a tiny flask, and I'd think an alcoholic would have been twitching by that point. When he's got something else to focus on, he can go ages without a drink (we even thought for a while that his flask didn't make it through whatever portal with him in 3B because we went so long without seeing it). I think he's more of a problem drinker, someone who isn't physically addicted to alcohol but who uses it as an emotional crutch. If he had high hopes that his servitude was about to end, would he have been that susceptible to a drink?

 

I think that my head canon is going to have to be that Silver offered him one sip, roofied him with a drug in the drink, then stole his money and told him he lost it gambling. The crew saw it and didn't dare say anything out of fear of their captain, and that's why they were willing to listen to him during the mutiny.

 

I think it's just as easy to apply Killian's obsessive behavior to his drinking and gambling as well. Like you said, when he has his mind set on something, his obsession can get the better of him and he doesn't think about anything else. When we analyze Hook's character as an adult, his life goals are much different than when he was a young teen/twenty-something who was still a slave on Silver's ship. Whereas older Hook's obsessions included finding the Crocodile or proving to Emma he's a worthy man, a younger and more aimless boy without as much confidence in his future might be more obsessed with winning a dice game against one of the crew members instead of totally buying into Liam's crazy plan to join the Navy. Killian even said, "I know that's your dream, mate, but I'm hardly naval material," so we already get a sense that young Killian wasn't 100 percent all-in with Liam's Navy plan. I'd agree with your assessment if Killian was shown to be excited about joining the Navy, but he seemed to only be going along with it because Liam wanted to do it. Much like Hook's self-loathing during the present scenes in the Underworld where he didn't believe he was worth saving even though Emma was offering him a golden ticket out of hell, I think a part of young Killian believed he deserved his fate as a slave on the ship even though Liam was offering him a golden ticket out of servitude. So Killian couldn't be full-speed-ahead and obsessive with joining the Navy if his heart wasn't entirely in it to begin with. Thus, we have Killian easily being tricked into drinking too much and gambling away his money.

 

It's difficult to discuss because Killian's entire drunk episode happened off screen, so we're stuck here creating mental fan fictions about what might have happened. (Thanks, Offscreenville.) Killian appeared to be one of the youngest crew members on the ship, so I could see him being picked on by not only the captain, but by the other crew members from time to time. With Liam not there to be his conscience that night, a crew member could have easily convinced Killian to a game of dice, and if Killian refused, all the crew member would have to do is call Killian a few harsh nick names and Killian's anger would kick in and he'd become obsessed with proving this bastard wrong at the dice game. A few shots of rum later, perhaps Captain Silver sees his opportunity to either slip something into Killian's drink or even join the dice game. Loser has to take a shot, and young, naive Killian doesn't realize Silver is using loaded dice. (Callback to Hook teaching Henry about loaded dice. Also a callback to Hook telling Emma about using alcohol to get people drunk.) Killian doesn't realize he has the deck stacked against him, and every single time Silver wins. Just one more roll, statistics say he can't roll sixes again. Shit, how does he keep winning? I can't refuse to take another shot, the entire crew is watching and cheering. With Killian already drunk and angry, I could easily see how a few more shots would send him over the brink and he'd black out giving away his money pretty quickly. 

 

I don't think any of that makes Hook an alcoholic, but I do think he might have dabbled close to alcoholism in his younger days, then sobered up during the Navy and now currently only drinks to mask pain occasionally. 

Edited March 29, 2016 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

With the things that we are finding out about Killian's backstory, what I'm getting is that he just wants the simpler things in life.

 

He was sold likely sold from one ship to another up to the time he landed on Captain Silver's ship.

The navy was never his dream, it was Liam's dream. He was going to follow his brother regardless because he was all he had.

He becomes the straight-laced Lieutenant from "Good Form" because he promised his brother he wasn't going to fuck up this chance.

He falls into piracy out of vengeance, but this is also the very first time in his whole life that Killian is actually a free person, truly free, not taking orders from anyone or anything like that. He is sailing, likely pillaging the kingdom he's from. He's travelling to different lands. Falling into piracy likely gave him a greater sense of responsibility.

 

We  get the flashback with Milah in the tavern from 5x14, and he said something to her when she said she had an ailing child and a husband. It might've seemed meaningless when 5x14 aired, but in light of 5x15, I think it makes the things that Killian really wanted a lot more clearer, at least to me.

 

When Milah tells him that she has a kid and a husband, Killian calls the husband a far better man than he is. He thinks the man is lucky. For me, this is an indication of the things HE wants, not stuff he falls into.

 

Fastforward to 3x22 when Killian reveals that he traded the Jolly Roger for the magic bean to get to Emma. I don't even think that was a difficult thing for him to do, or that he even gave it much thought when he did it. Killian literally took a leap of faith. And this is so very telling about exactly what he wanted, and how piracy, his ship were unimportant when they were pinned against the future that HE wanted. 

 

He is the one who starts hunting for the house so that he and Emma can move in together, he talks about wanting a future with her. And then there's that whole stage direction about staring at the nursery, and him saying that he will damn well get his future.

 

As odd as this may sound because we are talking about Captain Hook, I think what Killian always wanted was just a home and a future with the woman he was going to fall in love with. And in a lot of ways, it's something that makes sense because he's never really had that. 

[Curio]

Fastforward to 3x22 when Killian reveals that he traded the Jolly Roger for the magic bean to get to Emma. I don't even think that was a difficult thing for him to do, or that he even gave it much thought when he did it. Killian literally took a leap of faith. And this is so very telling about exactly what he wanted, and how piracy, his ship were unimportant when they were pinned against the future that HE wanted. 

 

He is the one who starts hunting for the house so that he and Emma can move in together, he talks about wanting a future with her. And then there's that whole stage direction about staring at the nursery, and him saying that he will damn well get his future.

 

As odd as this may sound because we are talking about Captain Hook, I think what Killian always wanted was just a home and a future with the woman he was going to fall in love with. And in a lot of ways, it's something that makes sense because he's never really had that.

 

I agree with Killian finding happiness in the simpler things, and I think the writers (and Colin) have done a good job showing us this without devoting too much dialogue to it. We were never shown where he lived during Season 4 when his ship was missing, but he never complained about being shacked up in a small bedroom that entire time. He only owns a few outfits. Even though he enjoys collecting gold, we don't see him buying a lot of lavish things with his wealth like Regina does.

 

The only thing I might disagree with is Hook having no difficulty trading his ship to get to Emma. I think there has to be some kind of hesitation there, if only because that ship was his only true home and his only connection to Liam and Milah. If Hook didn't care at all about the bean trade, then it makes his sacrifice far less significant and painful. The fact that Hook would be willing to trade something that valuable to him in order to find Emma is much more meaningful than him not caring about it at all. I doubt he gave much thought to trading away all his gold and silver to find Emma, but I do hope it was difficult to give up the Jolly Roger. (Forever bitter we never got that flashback...)

[YaddaYadda]

 

I agree with Killian finding happiness in the simpler things, and I think the writers (and Colin) have done a good job showing us this without devoting too much dialogue to it. We were never shown where he lived during Season 4 when his ship was missing, but he never complained about being shacked up in a small bedroom that entire time. He only owns a few outfits. Even though he enjoys collecting gold, we don't see him buying a lot of lavish things with his wealth like Regina does.

 

Killian grew up a slave, and dirt poor, very likely wearing the clothes he had on day in and day out, so I can see how that kind of thing might stick with him even after he went into the navy and had what I'm assuming a decent salary, or after he became a pirate and had more riches than he likely knew what to do with, some habits are just hard to break. From my experience, people that grow up with very little tend to be more frugal. They are more regimented because that's the way they grew up. 

 

Regina was a princess, her mother raised her to be a certain way, so her spending on clothes, and lavish things, I could absolutely see.

 

About the JR, whether it was difficult or not for him to trade away, I don't think it takes away from what he does because he literally had no idea what would happen with Emma. He traded his ship and left his world, that's brave as hell without a clue how things were going to go.

 

Having hope that they would become a couple, and build a future is one thing, but let's remember how 3B was going right before he and Emma fell through the portal. That whole thing was going to the crapper real fast. If Emma had gone back to NYC, then what? He chose to make his home in Storybrooke because of Emma. 

[Shanna Marie]

The only thing I might disagree with is Hook having no difficulty trading his ship to get to Emma. I think there has to be some kind of hesitation there, if only because that ship was his only true home and his only connection to Liam and Milah. If Hook didn't care at all about the bean trade, then it makes his sacrifice far less significant and painful.

Maybe a good way to phrase it would be to say that the decision was easy, but the act was difficult. It's like his sacrifice to end the Darkness (or so he thought) -- it was painful, difficult and scary to do, and he would have preferred not to have to do it, but it was so obviously the right thing to do and the only way he could see to get the outcome he wanted, and he couldn't have lived with himself if he hadn't done it, so in a sense it was an easy decision, a real no-brainer.

 

As odd as this may sound because we are talking about Captain Hook, I think what Killian always wanted was just a home and a future with the woman he was going to fall in love with. And in a lot of ways, it's something that makes sense because he's never really had that.

Yeah, if he ever had five minutes to breathe, I could see him being happily domestic, just having a comfortable, safe home and being surrounded by people he loves. To him, that's an adventure into uncharted territory, so I don't think he would be bored with it (especially not if he has a good view of the ocean and the chance to go sailing often). All that adventure stuff is the same-old everyday stuff to him.

 

This is part of why I've been griping about them hanging onto his pirate look and persona when he's such an all-in guy, and if he's all-in on quiet domesticity, then I'd think he'd shed the pirate trappings. But now that I think about it, especially given the recent revelations, being a pirate was the first thing in his life he got to choose for himself, so I can see it being a difficult thing to let go of.

[YaddaYadda]

I wonder if the writers do these things on purpose or if they just fall into them accidentally, but it was pointed out to me today that in the AU, Killian was written as a deckhand, a meek one at that, and considering what we know happened, and how he spent years being sold from one master to the other, doing the same job, how did that impact him after they got back to reality? Isaac took him back right where he started, and knowing what we know, this is something that must have been extremely painful. Blackbeard in the AU made fun of him the same way Captain Silver did. 

 

The other thing is Liam and what he's done with that crew, he sold their souls to secure his and Killian's future, but when confronted to someone evil who threatened his crew in 2x04, Killian agreed to the duel knowing that he would likely die to spare his crew since he had told Rumple that Milah had died. It just showed a lot of loyalty and he felt responsible for them

 

This man is so scarred by his childhood, that lines like "the scars made to us as children tend to linger" takes on a whole new significance because his life was just never good after his father not just left, but also sold him. 

 

I wonder if Emma had any idea exactly what the father did, that he sold his sons into indentured servitude and that was their lives for a long while after that. There seemed to be a disconnect in their scenes when Emma is questioning why Killian is different around his brother.

[Curio]

I wonder if the writers do these things on purpose or if they just fall into them accidentally, but it was pointed out to me today that in the AU, Killian was written as a deckhand, a meek one at that, and considering what we know happened, and how he spent years being sold from one master to the other, doing the same job, how did that impact him after they got back to reality? Isaac took him back right where he started, and knowing what we know, this is something that must have been extremely painful. Blackbeard in the AU made fun of him the same way Captain Silver did.

 

I noticed that too. When Adam & Eddy wrote the Season 4 finale, I doubt they even conceived Killian's backstory of being a slave on Silver's ship yet, so I have to commend the writers of "The Brothers Jones" for actually digging into the show's existing canon to create a good retcon. It also makes Isaac seem like even more of an ass because he knows everyone's histories, so he knew how much Killian hated that time in his life and made him relive it anyways. I doubt Rumple knows about Killian's past as a servant, so Isaac had to have been the one to purposely send Hook back to that time in his life in the alternate universe. Rumple might have requested for Hook to be tortured, but Isaac was the one who knew to revert Hook back to scrubbing decks again for a vile captain.

 

This man is so scarred by his childhood, that lines like "the scars made to us as children tend to linger" takes on a whole new significance because his life was just never good after his father not just left, but also sold him.

 

Out of everyone in the cast, it does seem like Killian might have one of the worst childhood experiences. The only thing that made it bearable was that he at least had Liam by his side, so even though he was physically going through the worst childhood, emotionally and mentally he was able to stay afloat because he still had someone he loved with him. It's hard to top being sold into slavery at approximately 8-years-old, and then being forced to do grueling physical labor every day dealing with the smell of dirty men and rotten fish guts constantly around you. And all of that came to happen because dear old dad valued escaping on a boat more than his sons.

 

I wonder if Emma had any idea exactly what the father did, that he sold his sons into indentured servitude and that was their lives for a long while after that. There seemed to be a disconnect in their scenes when Emma is questioning why Killian is different around his brother.

Emma and Hook just need to hash out their terrible pasts with each other and get it over with because I feel like both of them only know the surface details. Emma didn't realize how much Hook idolized his brother, which means Emma didn't even know Liam was like a father figure to Killian growing up and might not even know about their douchebag father or potential step brother. Emma didn't realize how controlling Killian with the dagger would piss him off so much, which means she didn't know about his indentured servitude. This show claims to be a drama, but they go out of their way to avoid their characters having difficult discussions with each other about these kinds of things, so they end up unsaid or it happens off screen.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Curio

[Curio]

I realize this is a double-post, but I just need to proclaim that I adore how Killian getting annoyed with Henry is a recurring theme. As someone who constantly wants to slap the stupid out of Henry on a regular basis, it gives me so much pleasure that none of the other adults seem to show disdain towards Henry quite like Hook can...
 

[HoodlumSheep]

^ I like this too. I feel like Hook is one of the only people who treats Henry more like an adult. And let's face it, teens go through the phase where they want to be treated like adults. I like how Hook doesn't overly coddle Henry.

[Curio]

I like how Hook doesn't overly coddle Henry.

 

Yes, definitely. It sometimes seems like all the other adults are so sensitive around Henry like they don't want to hurt his feelings or make him feel uncomfortable. While it's clear Hook cares for Henry a lot, he also isn't afraid to show when he's annoyed and frustrated with him. Everyone else is like, "Oh, Henry! You're so special and an amazing author! Don't be a pouty teen, you should embrace your inner hero!" And Hook is like, "Seriously, kid? You did [insert stupid thing] again?"

Edited April 7, 2016 by Curio

[Mathius]

Everyone liked Rumple's "all 45 of you" sass, but "squiggly lines" and "that's a lot of hopefully's and maybe's" crosses the line? It's not like he's calling Emma stupid.

The context is important here. Rumple is a jerk who is not on good standings with the heroes. Hook is the guy who these people are risking their lives entering the Underworld to save, AFTER he had almost gotten them sent there against their will. His sass toward them in this context is akin to Regina's sass toward the Charmings even after all the horrible crap she put them through. Hook is coming off as ingrateful and having no faith in his friends.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Mathius

[Shanna Marie]

It sometimes seems like all the other adults are so sensitive around Henry like they don't want to hurt his feelings or make him feel uncomfortable. While it's clear Hook cares for Henry a lot, he also isn't afraid to show when he's annoyed and frustrated with him.

I wonder if that has something to do with the fact that Hook didn't get the Storybrooke memory download. Everyone else is treating Henry like 21st century parents might -- the sort who build a trophy case for the participation awards. Hook's from a world where kids get drafted into the military at fourteen. He was put to hard physical labor on a ship as a child. He probably has no concept of a kid Henry's age being coddled.

[InsertWordHere]

They didn't go to the Underworld to rescue Rumple.

 

I'm going to headcanon that it's guilt over the fact that they're trapped in the Underworld because of him and that his stint as the Dark One made him even more disdainful of magic than he was previously.

[janett snakehole]

The context is important here. Rumple is a jerk who is not on good standings with the heroes. Hook is the guy who these people are risking their lives entering the Underworld to save, AFTER he had almost gotten them sent there against their will. His sass toward them in this context is akin to Regina's sass toward the Charmings even after all the horrible crap she put them through. Hook is coming off as ingrateful and having no faith in his friends.

 

That is my issue with it. Look I get why it makes sense that he may be using snark or attitude to cover up his guilt or that snark is manifesting because of guilt, but I doubt that is how the show is going to frame or present it. And context is important. It's one thing to be snarky or rude to Regina when they were facing off on how to best find/save Emma, it's another thing to be rude to Regina and whoever else in the situation they find themselves in now.

 

Two episodes ago he was feeling unworthy of being saved and saying that none of them should be there risking their lives for him and now he seems annoyed/bitchy about their efforts. It's an odd shift and makes his character look ungrateful. Thats why I don't like it. I love his character and I don't enjoy seeing him be bitchy or rude to people who are trying to help him.

 

Unfortunately, I think they are done with his self-worth struggle this arc, so going forward, instances of unwarranted rudeness will come across as just that. If they write his character as if he's fine/no longer struggling, it's going to be hard for me to justify his actions as if they are motivated by an internal struggle that isn't actually playing out on screen.

 

Now, they may end up exploring this more or cutting down on the sass and this could be a total moot point. But these are my thoughts about the writing choices for Killian at this point in the arc. I am not particularly good at predictions so I realize that I could be totally off about where this is going. lol 

[PixiePaws1]

Personally i didn't find anything he said to be rude or out of line. He's got a long way to go before passes Regina's deplorable snipe at Emma after she saved Regina from the Darkness. I am about as sensitive as a plank of wood, and even i cringed in second hand embarrassment for Lana having to deliver that line.

[RadioGirl27]

Hook just can't win with the fandom. He's been constantly called bland and a lovesick puppy who has lost his spark, but one line (that is actually true) and he is called rude and ungrateful. Emma and co. went to the UW without a plan B or an escape route and now they are trapped. I would be wary too.

[Curio]

I'm a little confused why the discussion about specific dialogue that gets said in a sneak peek had to be moved to the Killian thread and not stay in the spoiler thread. Are sneak peeks no longer considered spoilers?

[HoodlumSheep]

^ i think it's because it's turning slightly into a character discussion rather than spoilery discussion??

I'm in the minority that didn't have a problem with the sneak peek. I didn't find him to be ungrateful or rude. The heroes are rushing in without a plan, again. That itself calls for some biting remarks in my opinion. I didn't have any problems with the "oatmeal" line from last week either. I would have said the same thing.

I guess That makes me a rude, terrible person.

Edited April 7, 2016 by HoodlumSheep

[YaddaYadda]

Eh, the heroes have a tendency to not have plans, or good plans, and they don't think anything through. Killian has seen Hades get rid of Silver and then Liam by barely moving, so I can understand why he would have so little faith in the squiggly lines. Plus magic isn't exactly his cup of tea.

[Curio]

I don't understand why Hook needs to pitch in and offer more ideas on how to escape. He's basically playing the role of the classic princess locked in a tower, and the knight in shining armor who came to the rescue had a piss poor plan for escaping. It’s like a fairy tale where the knight shows up to save the princess, the princess asks the knight how they plan on escaping, and the knight goes, “Oh, I thought you would offer some ideas on that. My idea sucked.” Are we seriously expecting the person who’s been tortured and locked away underground for the majority of 5B thus far to be the one who figures out how to save everyone else and do it with a smile on his face and a friendly attitude?

[Camera One]

Hook has been part of these heroes' "no viable plan, let's stumble as we go since it always turns out alright" approach, so it shouldn't be a surprise.  The writers constantly need SOMEONE stating the obvious so it's acknowledged and then they can continue their merry way writing whatever the hell they want.  In this case, it's Hook, because he's supposedly one of the more logical characters (others the writers consider logical would be Regina and Rumple, but the former is now part of the no-plan scheme and the latter is off on his own).

Edited April 7, 2016 by Camera One

[formerlyfreedom]

I'm a little confused why the discussion about specific dialogue that gets said in a sneak peek had to be moved to the Killian thread and not stay in the spoiler thread. Are sneak peeks no longer considered spoilers?

 

^ i think it's because it's turning slightly into a character discussion rather than spoilery discussion??

 

THIS.^^^

 

If it continues down the spoilery road, it's fine in the Spoiler Discussion. There have been times that the mods have gone to bed, and woken to three new pages of off-topic conversation (even when just eight hours ago, it was slightly off-topic!). So occasionally, our mod notes are made to remind everyone what to post where. This was one of those times. Even mods gotta sleep!

 

So please feel free to discuss the sneak peek over in Spoiler Discussion; but when it starts to do go into deep discussion of Hook from past episodes, that should return here. As always, when you have questions, please PM us.

 

Thanks!

 

@aquarian1, @MostlyC, @yeswedo, and @saoirse